The Louis Theroux Podcast - S7 EP1: Boris Becker on encountering Diddy, mind-games with Nadal and his spell in prison

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Bingo cards at the ready... for the first episode of the series, Louis’s on the road again - this time in sunny Milan to sit down with tennis champion, coach, and commentator, Boris Becker. The pair discuss Boris encountering Diddy in Miami, playing mind-games with Rafael Nadal in the Wimbledon locker room, and his spell in Wandsworth prison.    Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    Book: Boris Becker Inside, Boris Becker (2025)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/inside/boris-becker/9780008782924     Book: The Player, Boris Becker (2004)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-player/boris-becker/9780857500274     Boom! Boom! The World vs. Boris Becker, (2023)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10366552/     Boris Becker: The Rise & Fall, (2023)  https://www.itv.com/watch/boris-becker-the-rise-and-fall/10a2940     Song: ‘Me Against The World', Tupac (1995)  https://open.spotify.com/track/76wJIkA63AgwA92hUhpE2V?si=dcabe1b32c4947c9     Song: ‘Slippin’, Lil Kim (2005)  https://open.spotify.com/track/3xN4CIFCdrJOiCFF7NFILQ    Article: Judge Ordered to Pay Fine for Racist Tweet  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/16/alternative-germany-politician-ordered-pay-compensation-boris/#:~:text=Jens%20Maier%20of%20the%20AfD%20was%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%E2%82%AC,obtain%20bookings%20as%20a%20DJ        Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello there. Welcome back to what we call the Louis Theroux podcast. This week's guest is tennis champion, coach and commentator and also tabloid fixture, Boris Becker. Boris Becker. That's the first of the impressions I'll be doing this week. I find when I do Boris, it kind of goes into Arnie, Ani, Anni, anyway, Arnold, Boris Becker. It's Boris Becker. You know Boris Becker, come on. Legendary tennis player who won Wimbledon aged just 17.

Yes, a Wundekind. He was German, so it works on both levels. He became the youngest men's champion in the tournament's history. He was a child. And he went on to win six Grand Slam titles in total. His success so early on in his career catapulted him to fame with all the attendant issues to do with media coverage and the many temptations life put in his way.

He became one of the most recognizable athletes on the planet, Earth, in case you were wondering. After retiring from professional tennis, Boris remained in the public eye working as a commentator. He later coached Novak Djokovic, if you've heard of him, during one of the most successful periods of Novak's career. But Boris's life off the court has been almost as headline-grabbing as his time on it. There have been divorces. That was a tongue-in-cheek gasp. Divorces are divorces, but these ones played out in a high-profile way. There have been financial problems, legal trouble and time spent in prison,

all reported on by the tabloids. He was in Wandsworth Prison, close to where I grew up in South London. The relevance, you ask, none. but we do talk about the almost poetic irony of Wandsworth Prison, SW18, that's the London Post Code, and Wimbledon, SW19 a scant mile or two away, and the ways in which his life reached its lowest ebb and its highest ebb in these vast physical structures that were so close. I don't know. Anyway, life is strange, isn't it? And you can, one minute you're winning Wimbledon and the next you're doing porridge with some lags in ones with prison.

I've only had ups. What are downs like? If you can tell me, get in touch. Boris was declared bankrupt in 2017 and then separately found guilty of four charges under the Insolvency Act in 2020. So two different cases. As Winston Churchill never said, to have one criminal case could be accounted a misfortune, to have two begins to look like carelessness. I don't have any. I was arrested.

Anyway, let's not go into that. He was sentenced to 30 months' imprisonment. I'll catch you up on the end. There's a cliffhang. I'll tell you what I was arrested for. At the end, he was sentenced to 30 months' imprisonment. He ended up serving eight months. We recorded this conversation in November.

It involves an LTP road trip to Milan in Italy, where Boris currently lives. Boris is not allowed to come to the UK, as is one of the conditions of his early release from prison. I was very happy to go on the road. It's always a bit of an adventure when you arrive on location for a podcast interview. We met to discuss in theory, I mean, not in theory, and in practice, but this was the Peg, the release of his new book, Inside, Subtitled, Winning, Losing, Starting Again. It was published late last year. It's a warts and all. That's such a cliche. You have to say that. It's a no warts. You mentioned doing a no warts book. A wartless. It's a definitely non-wart-free account of his life

in prison. He'd written a previous memoir that's more tennis-focused, and this one is about arriving in prison and making the best of it. Kind of getting in touch with himself, learning from the Stoic philosophers, as well as learning and helping his fellow inmates, learning from and helping them. He was running a little late from a hospital appointment with his wife. She gave birth to his fifth child a few weeks later.

I referenced that because the conversation starts in Medias Res, that's the Latin for in the middle of the thing. In middle of thing, because in Latin, of course, there is no definite article. And no word for yes or no. Did you know that, Millie? A quick warning, this conversation contains a bit of bad language and some adult themes. Does it? We definitely talk about some of the sexual stuff.

And Epstein comes up, P. Diddy, freak-offs. So, yeah, that would be accurate. All that and much else besides coming up. This episode is brought to you by Moneybox, the award-winning saving and investing app, trusted by over one and a half million people. Do you remember your school days? I do. All the things you learned that turned out not to be that useful. I spent years learning Latin.

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That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. When you walked in, I was going, I was going to add a whole little bit plan on I was going, welcome, Boris, or should I call you a 2923EV? Well, that was a short time of my life, not worth my name. That was my joke. But you've written a book about it, which we're going to talk about. Yeah. Which is very enjoyable.

Thank you. What struck me reading it, among many other things, was the physical injuries you're carrying. Yeah. You're carrying the war wounds of a storied tennis career. You've got, tell me a little bit about what, do you struggle to walk or was that before? Like, how is you, can you run? What is your physical condition? Well, how much time you have?

Well, you were a little bit late, so. Yeah. No, I have hips, replaced hips, partially replaced left knee, and a replaced right ankle, which doesn't really function anymore, meaning I cannot run. I cannot move the ankle. I do my power walks. You can't run at all. No, no, no. That was actually, since 20, you had it replaced 2017.

there was quite a struggle mentally so by eight years ago a struggle mentally because I've been doing physical sports all my life whether that's tennis or basketball or football or just running with the kids and just to accept the fact that because of the wear and tear and all the injuries I've had

that you cannot run anymore it was mentally as much a struggle as it was physically are you in pain? No No, having said that, I think I'm in better shape now than I was 10 years ago. You're looking good? I do, I mean, I have to do a lot for it. Swimming? Biking.

Power walking, swimming. I like the water. I'll do my weight, you know, tennis only if you want to play with me, not against me. Then I can play tennis. What does that mean? Well, you play in the middle. Or I stay in the corner, then I can have a strong arm still. Really?

My vision is good, so I can still hit the ball, but I cannot run towards the ball. Right. Does that mean, okay. Is that all because of tennis? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had a pretty physical style. You were known for your, yes, physical dives, your leaps, jumping around. And that caught up with you, did it?

Yeah, I wasn't as fluid as a federal or as agile as a. as a Jockovich, I was more like a Nadal physically, overbearing my opponents physically. And then with age, you know, good old age, he's catching up to all of us. So a combination of all of that, I think, made me how I am. But having said that, in my 40s,

I think I was a lot worse than I was in my 50s now. There's a lot to get into. As I mentioned, there's a book. It's called Boris Becker Inside. You also wrote another one, a memoir, what, 10, 15 years ago maybe? I was checking it the other day. It was... 2004?

Was it 2004? Yeah. Something like that. You've also come out of prison, well, a year, two years ago. In December of 22. Three years ago. December 15th of 22. And, you know, I'm of the generation that grew up with you.

Like I remember when I was 15, you were 17, you won Wimbledon, my brother was 17. I thought, that's so weird, like my brother, but he's just doing his exams at school. Like how, like, and some part of me thought, like, why aren't you winning Wimble? You know what I mean? It was so strange that a member of his peer group would be reaching that level of fame and excellence. Then you've been on a long journey ever since. Ups and Downs. What else can I say?

There've been ups and there've been downs. And I think if it's not too painful, we should probably get a few of the more awkward things out of the way. Would that be all right? You go shoot and then I defend. It is. Well, you know, it's funny. When you came in, I said, you know, interview is a bit like a tennis match.

Well, it's a big back and forth. Back and forth. You have an idea what you want to know. I think I'm more of an agacy. Like I've got quite a weak serve but a strong return. Okay. Okay. That makes sense?

I actually never liked to play aghacy. Because he has a good return and I was playing into his strength. Yes. But he's a nice guy after all. He seems nice. His book is also good. As I mentioned, there's a book. I did read your book, but also watched two separate documentaries, one with your cooperation, the Alex Gibney one.

Very interesting. And then another one, unauthorized one made by ITV. Have you seen both of those? I've seen the one with Alex Gibney, a lovely, lovely gentleman. It was a difficult one because half of it I was already inside. So it was as good as possible given the circumstances that I was in. Thankfully, I had a wife outside that fought like a lion, and in that case I had a very good agent called Sonar.

They defended me as good as they come. Hopefully there's another documentary with complete control of what actually happened to me in the near distant future. Have you fallen out with Gibney? No. No, no, no, no. There were things about the film that you were like in. Well, because he did two parts. The first part, I was outside,

and I could help the edit, I could help tell the story. In part two, I was inside. And some of the storytelling is not 100% accurate. How could it be? And the correction, through the book that I got, with short calls to my wife and then to the agent naturally there had to be some

mistakes but I think overall it's the best documentary there's out there it's called boom boom yeah what's the subtitle the world according to Boris Becker is it or it's got a subject against I think the world against me against the world a little bit

which is one of my favorite Tupac songs a two back song well it's a famous I'm a big big admirer of of Tupac. Oh, Tupac Shakur. Of course.

So one of the famous songs he has is Me Against the World. Yeah. You like rap? I used to like rap from the 90s. You like Little Kim. I, well,

Little Kim had one or two good songs. One was called Slippin, which I really liked. If you want to get into rap a little bit. Let's do a bit of 90s. Notorious B-I-G? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like.

Who else? I was always a big fan of J.C. J. Z. I love J.C. Did you meet Jay Z? Yeah, I made him a couple of times. He's a big tennis fan. I met Beyonce as well.

She nice? Very nice. Very cool couple. You wouldn't associate Boris Becker for West Germany with, you know, rap music like that. I always had a bit of an eclected place. Did you meet Did he? I've met him. I spent a lot of time.

in Miami. Did it surprise you when the stuff about the freak-offs came out? No. I mean, if you know Diddy, if you live in Miami, if you you are invited on the weekends, you know, to parties, you have a choice of saying yes and you have a choice of saying no. Nobody really talked in detail what happened, but they went, you know, they went for hours and I called them freak-offs and you put your two cents together. what happened there, okay? I feel like the freak-offs are getting conflated with the parties.

Because the freak-offs took place in hotel rooms. Yes, yes. I think with Cassie, and then he would bring in male sex workers and there would be drugs and they would take days. The parties were parties. The parties were parties, but even the parties, they took sometimes a day or two. Really?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you know that? Well, you know when you, you know, when you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, talk to someone on a Saturday afternoon and he talked to them again on the juice and said, damn, I just got out of it.

Then they were like, what? Yeah, it just took forever. We just didn't leave. Then, you know, they're longer than just tonight. And of course, nobody ever says what they've done in those 48 hours, of course, but you think there was... Naturally, an espresso, Red Bull isn't strong enough

to make you survive to tonight. No. But Miami, again, Miami in the 90s. Sexual activity, do you think? I don't know what. I mean, I've never been a guy of going to a long party because, you know, what's the point? You never met Epstein, did you?

No, no. I mean, you're opening all boxes now. No, I never met Epstein. No. I did meet. He had a Miami connection. I know, Epstein. I had, no.

I did meet Andrew. I mean, I met the Royal Family many times. Yeah. What would you say about Andrew? Look, we are on air now and I don't think I should talk about the subject. It's so brand hot now, brand new. But it's... That's our clickbait headline is Boris Becker on P. Diddy, Epstein and Prince Andrew.

That's going to break the internet. Exactly. He's not called Prince Andrew anymore. Oh, you're right. He's called Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. Yes. So, yeah. Do you feel bad for him?

I shouldn't be talking about this. I mean, you're leading me into something that I shouldn't be commenting. My life is full enough, right? I shouldn't be the one that poignant at others and criticize others for their mistakes. I knew you'd say that. That's why I felt comfortable asking the question, because I knew you had the poise to give the perfect answer. I should say, by the way,

Alex Gibney is a very well-known American, a very respected American director. He's definitely one of the top directors of documentaries in America, if not the world. Can I say about the other one? So the other one by ITV, I would call it a hoax because I went with a very good legal team against it

because there were so many facts portrayed that are wrong. Well, we might be able to put some of those to bed. So one of the things, One of the narratives that comes out from watching those, and I just want to, because everything you said could be true, and in addition, it could also be true, I don't mean to sound like it's not, but in addition, it could also be true that you were maybe reckless.

Where I'm going with this is one of the quotes that Gibney gives in promoting the, I guess he was promoting the film, he said, what made him great, meaning you as a player, didn't serve him well in real life, you have to be a little bit crazy to do what they do, I think, meaning top tennis players or athletes. And Lillian, in a different quote, she said something similar.

She said, in order to be a champion, you have to believe you're invincible. That probably brings you to a level where you think you're untouchable in real life. So I wonder if there's a part of you that is naturally a bit reckless, a bit of a gambler, someone who maybe risks too much

where the odds aren't good enough or looks for the edge. Look, I think, In order to become the best in what you do, you have to go past your own limitations. You have to go further than you think it can go in order to get to that last point and make that last serve and just come back from 2000 to love. If you wouldn't believe in your own strength, you would never do that because it's not logic. A lot of people have tried and a lot of people have failed.

So in order for me to be best tennis band in the world, I have to cross borderlines. Okay, that is an attribute that I have by my DNA. What kind of borderline? You mean pushing the envelope? What do you mean by crossing borderlines? Because that could sound like kind of transgressing. No, no, no, no. Just not accepting no for an answer, for example.

So that worked very well as an athlete. Now, in real life, we all have our borders, right? There's the law. You have to, if the red light, you have to stop in all this, which I do, but if I'm in business and I see an opportunity to make this business successful,

I go as far as necessary and as far I have to go. Now, it's good and bad. Yes. With this character trait, if you may say, I've survived prison and I'm living,

I'm living there probably the best life I've been living in the last 15 or 20 years. Now, if I would give up easily, if I would accept know easily. If I would always believe what you tell me, I wouldn't be in this position today at almost 58. So it goes both

ways. Now, I see why people want to do a documentary about it because some of the things that I've done, nobody has done. The good and the bad. But I think it's a character, a trade of mine that I don't accept no for an answer. Otherwise, I would have never been the best.

Are you reckless? No, I'm not reckless. But I'm not afraid. I think there's a difference. I'm not afraid also of falling down. I can't accept not trying. That doesn't mean I succeed all the time. That sometimes I get a bloody nose.

But I'm not afraid of trying if it means I have to fall down. One of the things in the ITV documentary was your ex-wife, Lily, said that you kept horses in the bedroom of your finger. Well, how could you imagine that? In order to evade taxes on horse. Well, how much bullshit is that?

Seriously. Can I swear on this? Please. Do I have to mind my language? I mean, have you ever seen such a load of bullshit in your life before? Just think logically. How big a bedroom have to be to hide horses in there? Let alone, she's talking about the Finca and Mallocca.

The bedrooms are on the first floor. So how do I should the horses get onto the first floor and then to avoid paying taxes of paying taxes, what? So that's just one element and thankfully for laughing. It was one element of the BS that's been storied about me

in that particular documentary. Thankfully, it was not a success. People didn't believe it. It wasn't watched, so it's not even worth talking about it. But that's what I'm dealt with. If my name isn't Boris Becker, there isn't even going to be a documentary about it, right? The other one was,

I mean, I know you've got, I've got an answer to this one, but I have... I've heard that too, is crazy. The... At a certain stage of the insolvency proceedings, you announced that you actually had a passport from the Central African Republic and that you had diplomatic immunity, therefore,

from the case. Well, the first part of your question is correct, the second part is not correct. I never ask for immunity in my insolvency case. It was a business deal that I was offered, Yes, the passport turned out to be fake. The passport turned out to be fake, and at the time it was about the auction of my trophies.

I had a problem with that. I had a problem that the trustee had the right to auction of my trophies that I put all my blood, bloods and tears about it, they had no financial value other than to me, that he had the right to sell them. He fetched a lot of money for it. But that legally it was possible, and that pissed me off.

And I thought, which way could I stop this auction? Then this business idea came, and I thought, maybe I can stop the selling of my trophies, which it was stopped for about six months. By becoming African? No, no, no. To have an immunity against this particular point. Through the passport.

Through the passport. That was the whole point. Once it was clarified that it was a fake passport, I was the first one to say, do what you want with the trophies, hopefully you get a lot of money for it and so forth. So that would stop. Now, in hindsight, that was foolish.

Of course, it was foolish. But I got my emotions in the way. I don't think any trustee should ever have a right to touch any of my trophies. I think it's really wrong. But there you go. That was a mistake. Do you know offhand how much one of your Wimbledon Cups

would have gone for? Funny enough, nine trophies. Even the Wimbledon ones are missing. So it was... It's a little bit suspicious. Well, part of the prosecution was that for each missing trophy, they had a case against me. Now, the explanation for me was that as a teenager,

you win Wimbledon not because of the trophy. You win because of the title. You win because you want to win, not because you want to keep the trophy and so forth. Trophies matter only when you can't win them anymore, I said, too old. You want to show them to your kids. So I never knew who I gave these trophies to, probably my manager at the time. I asked him, he didn't have him either.

Some were sold, I think. No. There were a lot of important trophies. I won a lot of trophies in my life, right? So a lot of important... Should we talk about how many trophies you won? I mean, that might be... Well, we don't have... Yeah, we don't care.

You want, how many... Come on. Let's just quickly... We've got this. 49 ATP singles titles. That's in singles, yeah. Grand Slam victories. Six.

Three Wimbledons, one U.S. Open, one U.S. Open. No French Open? Well, six as a player and six as a coach. Sometimes also if you Google Wikipedia, they don't talk about my coach. Exactly. So you don't know how much a Wimbledon trophy that you won would sell for?

No, all these trophies, memorabilia, they call it coins. Olympic coins because you won doubles didn't you in Barcelona Yeah All this was sold for 750,000 pounds Having said that I would say the nine most important ones

Are not part of it And they're still not to be found Eon Tyriac What was he comes up In the Givney documentary He looks a bit like kind of 70s medallion man he's got a big mustache hairy chest

would you see? Yeah yeah let me remember yeah and kind of I suppose it was the 70s when he was looking like that so that's fine but he was a Romanian tennis player who became your coach or advisor? Well at first coach because I wasn't making any money yet

at 15 and 16 but then he quickly became also my manager and he comes across as a voice of reason and he claims that I think he said early on, look, take whatever, five, 10% of your money, play with it, have fun, go crazy. Just remember the other stuff, don't take risks with it. Keep a ton of it in the bank. Keep most of it in the bank accruing of stable rate of interest. That's one of the things he said,

he said. And then he's also described you as the most stubborn human being I ever met. Let me just clarify the first point. No, I didn't have any financial issues in my tennis career. His issue was we could have earned more but I wasn't playing for money I wasn't playing for profit I was playing to win it drove him crazy he said go to Hong Kong for two nights

go to Morocco for two nights we make a fortune and I said but it has no meaning to me see that's been always a confrontation between us a healthy one because he comes from nothing so for him money is everything but I come from something

So again, we clashed on this philosophy that money for him was everything, money for me was never everything. And am I stubborn, of course. So lovely, in all the documentaries, there's one bit of archive they always seem to use where you look like you're about seven or eight years old and you win, you play this long baseline shot across the court and then you go, hey!

It's amazing. Do you know the one I mean? Yeah, I was nine. I was nine. At that age, were you thinking I'd like to play tennis as a profession? No. You just weren't. It's very young to be thinking about it.

Is there something about tennis? You know, Naomi Osaka's been public about mental health struggles. Other people have struggled. It comes across in Andre Agassiz's book very strongly. He talks about how much he hates tennis. That's sort of the light motif of the book. And it's a lonely sport. And you're there.

You're not really even allowed to be coached while you're out there, correct? when you're on the court. Nowadays the rules are changing a little bit so you can coach a player when he's on your side of the court but he's not really on the court coaching. But is there something that's, I mean, it's kind of obvious in some ways

but what would you say about what tennis demands from its athletes that's different from other sports? It's an individual sport. So it's mentally very challenging to be always on par to have the motivation, to be convinced about your own strength.

That is very, very difficult. That's why you have so many ups and downs with careers. Lonely, I mean, every week in a different place. Yes, the hotel room can be nice. You're on the tour, week in, week out all through the year. Australia, Asia, America, Europe. Correct. So, again.

How many are in your entourage? It depends how wealthy you are. If you're an alcohol, Russ and a sinner, I think he's, got about eight to ten people in his entourage. When I was playing, I had a lot of people in my entourage. I think Djokovic had a lot of people. So you have to afford that. But this becomes your family because this is the only close people you have traveling.

Do you become friends with the other players? Not when you're a good player. No, no. No. Again, it's a very, I mean, the locker room, you're sitting next to your opponent, the guy you're playing the room with the final in the, half an hour. I mean, no other sport has that. Why do they do? So you're in the locker room about to play the match of, you know, of your life, let's say, or certainly the final of Wimbledon, and you're both in the same locker room together.

No other sport has that. Why do they do that? Tradition. Tradition, it's been, it's been like this since the beginning of tennis. Do you talk to each other? You do gossip a little and small talk. You don't really go into depth. you can't also open up your side because then you know, okay, he's got a weak moment or he's struggling with the wife or he's struggling with this so you don't want to share stories with your toughest opponents, of course not.

Psychological games playing? Of course. Like what? Yeah, staring each other out, you know, looking at each other who blinks first, who walks away, who takes more space in the locker room, you know, who puts his entourage next to him a little bit

just to spread the muscles, as we say. You know who was very good at that, I was Nadal. When I was coaching Djokovic, I mean, Nadal came with enterage and it just blocked the whole corner, just to say, this is my... In the locker room? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the thing. It was claimed that when you played Agassi one time

and he was going out with Brook Shields, you began flirting with her in the crowd and that it blew his concentration. That's in your documentary. Well, I wasn't going to comment. comment too much on Alex's work. But what's true is that it was a particular match of Wimbledon, a semifinal, and he was beating my ass badly, sat in a break or so. And I was trying to find the way to get into his head. And at the time he was dating Brooke, and they're sitting in

the player's box, and I tried to do eye contact, just to disturb him a little bit. With Brooke? With his box. With his box. And Brooke was sitting there in the middle. I don't I think he called it flirting, but I was just trying to get him off guard. Guess what it worked. I won the matching four. So there's a lot of mental warfare going on, and I'd like to think I was good at that. He says he could tell where you were going to serve by the tongue movement. Well, think of this logic. You're serving left, your tongue went left, if you were serving right, your tongue went right.

I hate to break a great story. And he's from Las Vegas, after all. but I mean the tennis court is 33 meters long you really think that he has the eyesight to look into my mouth while I'm serving up where I don't even know where I'm serving so he thinks that with the movement of my thumb it's a nice story I love the book he wrote but factually wrong this episode is brought to you by Moneybox

the award-winning saving and investing app money is important why well because it means freedom freedom to enjoy your life. I like money. That sounds weird. But to go on holidays with my family, we went to Prague. It was lovely. We walked around the cobblestone streets. We admired the ancient buildings. But to go on holiday, you need money, and that means sound financial choices. For which, try Moneybox. And it's particularly important right now because it's the end of the tax year. Time to get your finances in order. Every adult in the UK has a tax-free, ICE or allowance of 20,000 pounds. each year, but any unused allowance doesn't roll over, so if you don't use it by the 5th of April,

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I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business, because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales.

The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today. at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. So there's some legal business to deal with, and there's some ladies' business to deal with.

Okay. On the legal stuff, just to get it out of the way. So you were convicted on a case. It was financial stuff, like initially. And again, I didn't follow this closely at the time, was just like Boris Becker's in the news there was tax evasion. That was around 2002. They alleged, well, they convicted you

on avoiding taxes by claiming that you lived in Switzerland whereas they said you actually lived in Germany. You got two years suspended on that. I have to sometimes correct because most of the stuff that's been rolled about me

and that's why now and then I have to write a book is that it's actually factually incorrect. Did I get wrong already? So I was convicted of tax evasion because I was using the guest room of my sister's apartment in Munich. Yes. And the Munich authorities claimed that was my home and therefore they convicted me of actually living in the guest bedroom of my sister and not in my three-bedroom apartment in Monte Carlo. Now I did have some stuff but you know the rules are what they are and so it's corrected, they convicted me of this very terrible soundy word tax evasion, where the fact was

I used my sister's guest bedroom once too many times, correct. Yeah, you've got two years suspended on that. Correct. Then 2022 comes post-bankruptcy. You're accused of breaking the Insolvency Act, basically hiding assets in order to not pay your creditors. Yeah. That's the contention. I have to correct you a little bit. I mean, you're reading, you're reading. Huh? No, no, I was just, I didn't mean to, I wondered if I got it wrong again. No, no, no, you got the headlines, right?

But what it actually means? Because, you know, I was going to ask you, do you know why I was actually incarcerated? Right, I was accused of 29 separate points. Yes. Of 25 of them, I've won. And the four points that I've lost is that I did a technical error. by telling the trustee three weeks later than I was told that I had a home in Germany, which I owned 100%.

I thought because my mother was living in there, she owned it half, that this home had a mortgage, that I took money out of my business account, which was legit, to pay personal expenses. Personal expenses, again, so I wasn't hiding it. And the last bit was I had shares in a sports startup company. The shares were validate £9,000. Again, it took me three weeks to clarify that. And because of those three weeks, the headline is I was hiding assets.

I was not hiding assets. Whether there was correct or not, I went because of that for 30 months into prison originally. So. He was found guilty on four counts. out of 24, including hiding 825,000 euros in a business account, failing to declare ownership of a German property. You mentioned that one, and transferring large sums to his ex-y's accounts. No, no, that's not correct. No, no.

Okay. And I can show you, obviously, I don't need to come with the evidence, but if you want to, if you want to clarify whether I was correct, that's exactly in documents in the court. and all these decisions I don't want to say or claim that it wasn't my fault all these decisions was my responsibility

and I take full accountability is just the actual points it was on case four where what got me the 30 month was that I took not 850,000 but it was 382,000 points the reason I know it in detail

because I was convicted for so I know exactly to pay child support, to pay personal expenditure and so forth, which I had to do by law. That's what I did. And I told the trustee this three weeks after he asked me. That's the God honest truth. That's what I did.

And thank you for clarifying that. No, but it's important because it wasn't tax evasion, right? Or it wasn't... The 2022 one was not. No, no. The insolvency act. Yeah, yeah. So that's the headline.

The headline is correct. What does it mean? And if you zoom right out and you try and make sense of this, the Wundekind, 17, wins Wimbledon, you have your tennis career. Well, I'm just trying to kind of make sense of it all, really. Do you think you were unlucky? Do you think there was some part of you that was perhaps, well, you were obviously breaking the law, but in ways that perhaps you were either naive

or you were trying to bend the law a bit in your own mind. You had a lot of obligations, right? You had child support at that time. Was it four children? And across three relationships, that's a lot of outgoing expenses, right? Obviously, you also have a lot of income, certainly during the tennis days,

and then afterwards, presumably endorsements. Were you bad with business? When you zoom right out and try and make sense of what took place, how do you do that? What's the best explanation? I know that's a big question. Well, it's a very important question because, you know, I did write a book about it because it's not answered in a sentence or two, but I'm going to do my best. First of all, I'm responsible for the good and the bad that happened in my life. The good was I was a very successful tennis player.

Wombeen champion, number one, everything, and I earned. Now, how much did I earn? I can tell you that if you like it. Well, I know better what I've earned than you were going to tell me. I've Googled it. Well, that's my problem.

Yeah. Because I've Googled myself a long time, and most of the stories about Boris Beck on Google is wrong. Now, how much money did I walk away in 99 when I quit my tennis career? Me, in the pocket, and believe me, I'm giving you the truth.

Okay. So according to Wikipedia, your total prize, that's not funny. Well, if you Google Wikipedia right on board Specker, yes, it says 25 million prize money, and then you add endorsements onto that, and you're going to get easily double that, right? So I would, between 50 and 75 million, I'm guessing. You know, it's the wrong guess.

On Wikipedia. There's a euros, although I can't really remember. Well, let's get to an integrity on this, okay? And Wikipedia, if you Google my name, I have three kids, not four kids. So starting. Really? With a very factual, important information that it's easy to verify. Just give you this idea how many wrong things they're on Wikipedia.

They've never seen my bank account. They've never seen my tax returns. And they've never seen me paying commissions to any of my managers. I'll give you an example with price money. So out of this $25 million price money, half of it is gone with taxes right away. So it's not 25. we're starting with 12. Again, it's a lot of money for most people, but it's not 25.

Now, my endorsements at the time weren't in pounds or weren't in euros. They were in Deutsche Mark. I walked away with around 30 million Deutschmark, which is about 15 million euros, which is a hell of little money, okay, but it's not 50 and it's not 100. Within the first year after my retirement, I had a very experienced. divorce. Half of it is gone. So out of the 15, I have maybe left half. Okay. So because I had a high child support for three children, which I love daily, over 15 to 20 years, depending on their age, the child support was in a good five-figure range every month, and that's net. Naturally,

After my tennis career, I didn't have the income anymore. How could I? But I had the outgoings. Well, you would have had endorsement income. Yeah, but nothing even close to when you are a Wimbledon champion, when you're number three in the world, nothing even close to that. So I'm giving you the honest daughter. So your income went off a cliff after you retired from tennis in 1999?

No, I wouldn't call it a cliff. It's just that it tapered down. Just the incoming, one less. The outgoings were full. fixed. So fast forward, 15, 20 years later, I had assets. I had three large houses, but my cash was a lot less because of my outgoings. So that's why I ask a private bank in England for a loan against my future income, which was all legit. This is in the book, isn't it? Yeah, it's all in the book. Remind me how much the loan was for? How much was the loan?

I got a $5 million, $5 million loan, which I paid back a million and a half. It was at 25% interest. This is where the fight broke out. But you must have business advisors say, that's a very high rate of interest. Again, I cannot, you know, I can easily blame my business advisors then,

but it's my fault. Maybe you can call it naive. Maybe you can call it, you know, very difficult. especially my playing days, where people were correcting me or would tell me no, I get that. But I was badly advised to accept the loan under such high interest. I don't mean to laugh. I'm not very good with money either, funnily enough. I don't think you're very good with money.

I think I'm very good with earning money. Yes. I didn't have... Huh? But not so good with business? I think earning money is business? What do you call earning money not business? Or is it for fun?

Not really because a boxer could earn enormous amounts of money but they might be terrible with the money You know you look at athletes in general People who make they earn huge amounts And this is the whole problem Well this is the challenge faced by young athletes They have this huge income don't they But a limited window of opportunity

So from 18 to 26 They're earning money but they're not good with business No well let's say but I'm no longer 26 So in my 30s and 40s Of course I became better with money but I didn't study business. I didn't study the law. So you surround yourself,

supposedly, with smarter business managers, than you are. Again, it's my fault. I'm just giving you now the facts because emotionally I'm way past it. I've accepted it. I took accountability. Maybe I'm a better man today because of it.

My life is very different today than it was in the years prior. Yes. But it's just because when you go, Wikipedia or you went on Google, most of it is actually factually not correct about Boris Becker. We've talked about the legal stuff. I know you're happily married now and you've got a baby on the way. I don't want to embarrass your wife. Nevertheless, I have to put this out there. Do you think, in a general way, you've learned anything about your relations with the opposite sex? I mean, a quick answer is yes, but relationships are difficult.

I'm not the first one that was divorced. I'm not the last one that's going to be divorced. My first marriage lasted 10 years. My second marriage lasted 13 years. So it's not that quick. It could have been longer, but it's also not six months. You're supposed to learn, right? You're supposed to learn.

but where people will make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. I think I'm making a lot less mistakes now than I've done 20, 30 or 40 years ago, yes. You've said there was a way it used to be with me and women. I could see it in their faces. I want to be with you because you're famous. I want to be with you because you're rich.

And then that led you to question. You go on, was Barbara in love with the Wimbledon champion and everything that came with it? Then I would have to ask the same question of Sharleney, or was it ever just the boy from Lyman? Well, one thing is for sure I can't prove it. But it's very, very legit for me to ask that question, hypothetically, if both of these women, and they're the mother of my children as well,

I want to emphasize that, were they in love with the superstar, the famous guy, the rich guy, or were they in love with the boy from Lyman, a small town. Now one thing I'm sure is that when I've met Lillian, I wasn't rich anymore. I was physically impaired. I may have a famous name even then, but she didn't care much about Tennessee. Actually, didn't know me on my first night. So I can, you know, a hand on the Bible, I can say she didn't fall in love because of the wealth. I didn't have any. Because of the fame, I didn't really have any.

and physically, I'm not in a better shape now than I was a 25. So the contrast of my three wives is the first two married the famous rich guy, and the last one didn't. But look, in order, in order, I'm a big believer in my life in karma. And I'm not convinced I was always in control, even of my strength. I mean, who wins from the 17? Nobody. But then who would do some of these mistakes

that have done otherwise? Now, important to say is that and even the judge had to agree with that, that the mistakes I made were not intentionally. So I wasn't hiding money under the bed. But there was still mistakes.

So you can say maybe I didn't have the best advisors. Maybe I was too stubborn myself. Maybe I was too. I was too full of myself. Fast forward, I think prison seriously grounded me. Because when you lose everything, including your freedom, you're bound to have only your personality and your characters.

Everything else is gone. And you have to deal with your character and a personality with other very dangerous inmates. And if you're not strong, if you're not smart, if you don't need the room, they're going to bully you, they're going to assault you, people even get killed in prison. So it was a very dangerous place.

It's easy in hindsight to say I'm thankful for it now because it just stopped the old life and I got a chance for a new life. At the time, it was living hell. And when I went in there, I didn't know I was going to leave after eight months and five days

or 231 days. Because when I went in there, I thought I have to be there for at least 15 months and then there's maybe house arrest and you're on license in the UK so all of this happened while I was inside I came out earlier

than I was expected the deportation to Germany when I was in there wasn't in the cards because I was trying to continue my life in the UK but that the consequence would have been I would have to stay longer in prison which I didn't want to

the consequences of the deportation is that I can't go back to the UK at the moment I'm working with the authorities hopefully it'll happen soon but if it's not going to happen I've been living in freedom the last almost three years so

I'll take that I do want to talk to you about life in prison I'm still thinking a little bit about your two ex-wives it was quite a heavy thing that you said suggesting questioning whether they were

in love with the real you or was it the trappings of success right correct they might hear that and think, how dare you? You know, like the years that I put in, or you never gave me the chance to show me that I could be loyal at your lowest ebb. Or they'd think, you know,

because Charlie Lee implies that you may have strayed from the family bed in the documentary in one of them. And I don't know, Barbara, I'm always struck by how in those, you know, when you're playing, the sense of her emotional investment in your success, and also the nature of the infidelity that took play. which was pretty brutal. She was in hospital,

pregnant, going through her contractions, and that was when the infidelity took place, right? You could, and then she stuck with you for a bit afterwards. That's not true. There were no contractions. She was in hospital, but there was no contractions. Either way, I imagine they'd hear this and think, like, we put up with a lot,

and that's not fair to characterize it in the way that you did. Fast forward we settled in a divorce I cheated on her no doubt about that we managed to have a

relationship that's built on respect she's wonderful mother to her two oldest boys she actually moved to Milan is here as well So we moved on from that. You and Barbara, this is.

I mean Barbara. There were a couple of scenes after our divorce. Again, it's so long ago, I have to really think hard what happened, that weren't so nice from her, without getting too much in detail, but she had the power because I was the bad guy. She got a nice check out of it. She got a nice monthly support out of it.

And she realized that nobody's perfect. I'd like to call myself a good father. I really looked after my two oldest, even though they weren't living in Europe at the time. They moved to Miami. So 25 years later, we really consider each other close-knit family, regardless of what happened. With my second wife, it's a lot more complicated

it because for once, if I ever say that, for once I wasn't a bad guy. Again, so much happened in the last year, two years. But once a child is involved, I think we both, regardless of who's guilty and who's not guilty, we should both be a bit more considerate. So I think I'm the balanced one here. I'm trying to do the right thing. I'm very lucky, blessed, fortunate to be giving. a new chance in life

with my wife Lilin you know we're expecting our first baby so I didn't expect that eight years ago when the shit hit the fan in 2017 how low can you go how low can you be was that 2017 when the shit really hit the fan

2017 2018 this is when all these happened so when you were 50 50 I thought my my life as I know it is over you said maybe I needed to go to prison I was on the wrong path. I was not a happy camper in my mid-40s. I was eating too much and drinking too much

and hanging with the wrong people. Correct. Who were the wrong people? The wrong advisors. The wrong business. Were you partying a lot? No, I'm not. I'm not.

No, I'm not a... Well, you took... I mean, not drug drugs, but obviously sleeping pills and painkillers when you were playing. But not recreational. Ask one athlete, ask one. Ask one athlete, whether he's never done,

taking any painkillers, and he's who, say, ask one athlete when he can't sleep in an overnight flight of Australia. Everybody takes a sleeping pill. So that's, A, not a crime, and be very common if you live their lifestyle. But I'm not, I'm not a recreational, you know, not even weed. I'm not even a weed smoker.

I smoke cigars. Right. I've never touched weed in my life. For loneliness, there was women, whiskey, or both. That was basically, for loneliness, there was women, whiskey or both. Was that during your tennis playing years? No. No.

I was a very good boy when I was playing tennis. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had the success. But then I would say in my 30s, I drifted away from that path. Naturally, because as an athlete, you have to be so disciplined. You have to be so on the clock all the time that you can't let yourself go. It's impossible. I think I let myself go in a disciplined part. in my 30s

and I started to pay the price in my 40s now the mistakes don't happen overnight right the mistakes happen over in my case probably over 10 to 15 years and it started in my my mid 30s of having having my first

divorce in my early 30s naturally you you know want to do something you weren't able to do before meaning me meet attractive women and just in having beautiful dinners and a nice class of wine. Of course you want to do that.

I think most people would have done that. Now, that leads to trouble. That would be about 2000, right? Because 99 you retired, is that right? 2000, did you separate? And then you're then 32, 33, and you're basically trying to find your new role in life. Exactly, exactly.

That's not so easy. I think most athletes have their problem, have their dilemma, me too. I think I was settling down nicely with my wife Charlie Lee She was a Dutch model we should say

Very beautiful woman She was As are all your As is Lillian and Barbara Well that's always a question of taste You know All I'm not white

So thankfully you call them attractive If you were racist You call them ugly Right So you know I started to have a A certain type

And I stuck with it throughout all my adult life because I find them very beautiful. And yes, they're beautiful inside and out. So the story goes, yeah. In preparing for this interview, I discovered, perhaps I was naive that you experienced a degree of, I guess, racism by connection,

second-hand racism from the German public when you started your relationship with Barbara. Well, it continued, Because, you know, people were racist against my older son Noah, still out today. Really? Yeah, he had some issues. So I had to defend him. Anonymous trolls or...

No, no, anonymous trolls. There was actually one, funny enough, a judge, who was also a politician, for a right-wing party called AFT. It's a bit like the Reform Party in Aja Farage, you know, similar. I think Farage would deny that. but I think Tommy Robinson might have some outreach with him. So somewhere in between, maybe somewhere in between. So he called my son a Negro on Twitter.

So I was able to sue him. He lost his job as a judge and he had to step back. So that was quite an important message. So people are a lot more careful when they talk about Carl and my family. I'm very defensive on that, naturally. again there's not much on Wikipedia

you can Google that right and not much my positioning on race so I don't know who's running Wikipedia

who's running Google you know maybe maybe it gives it away yeah so there's a different side what do you mean there's not much in Wikipedia and Google

about your positioning on race no no there's there's a lot about you know how much money are lost and how much

my divorce and there isn't much about my position politically there's not much about the fights that I've had defending my black family what would you want to say about that

it's a fact that's completely under the radar you know when you Google me you're professionally done your job that never comes up that usually comes up the end of the conversation when we got through all the fact of what you can read or not read about me.

And usually it's, oh, we didn't know about it. I'm like, well, you never ask me about it. But you can naturally see that I have a decision made in my family life. And you can see that all of my children are mixed race. So you have these quick headlines. And by these headlines and by, you know, white people talking about it, I see the real lack of education and lack of culture,

which bothers me. Okay, because that's an important side of me. because I'm a proud father of all my children and some are darker than others that doesn't mean they're less black. So your relationships you feel have educated you in certain respects? Look, my father, my father, Kalines, he was an architect but he was also a politician for a conservative party.

His favorite musician was Satchmo. Louis Armstrong, the black sax player. Trumpet. Trumpets, yeah. And his favorite athlete was Muhammad Ali. So I grew up with a black musician playing in the household and a black boxing superstar being idolized. So that's where I have it from.

My mother, I don't know whether you know that, she's a refugee. She's a survivor World War II. She's from the Czech Republic. and she was in a refugee camp in Germany when she was 10 years old. She was in the Sudetenland, famous from history

because it was Hitler reoccupied and that was what Neville Chamberlain famously acceded to in his attempt to appease the Nazi party or the Nazi regime. So that's my mother and my father's favorite artists and musicians are black.

So that's my base. There's none of it in Wikipedia and Google either. Should we talk about prison a little bit? Yeah. Thank you. We should say you started out in Wonsworth Prison. You were there about four or five weeks.

Yeah. And then they moved you to one called Huntercombe. Huntercombe, near Henley. For foreign nationals. It's for foreign nationals. And you learned something about prison life. And you adapted to it. Correct.

What would you say was the set of skills that you needed? to survive in prison? Well, first of all, prison is very dangerous. You know, you think you're in a safe place. No, your most dangerous place I've been in my life. In both prisons, by the way. They don't tell you that before. I was surprised in Wonsworth, H&B, Wantsworth,

that they didn't really have the wings where you go, okay, the peterfowls on wing B. And then the dangerous criminals is not wing A. They didn't do that. Everybody was sort of, everybody, who's checking? Who's checking? So it was pretty much, especially when the canteen opens, everybody comes together, then they sit together, and then maybe they go into back to the cell.

But it was very not in order, as I would say. And the same thing actually in Andercombe, where you had literally a cell was a paedophile, and the next cell was a sex offender, and the third cell was me. Really? So that is disturbing. It's why you need to have a group.

What you quickly need to do in prison is, if you can say that, is read the room. Like who is the loudest, who looks the toughest, who has a group around him, and you want to be associated with them because that's your protection. So that's one of the abilities I maybe had is that quickly understand who's in charge, right?

And for some reason, they liked me or they respected me. In both places. In both places. Do you think being Boris Becker is an advantage or a disadvantage? Well, they didn't know that I was a tennis player, Boris Becker. That seems quite odd. Yeah, they only saw me on TV. They thought it was a famous personality.

They didn't really know why. Again, most of these prisoners, I was on the older ones. Most of these prisoners were younger, a lot younger than me. So when you're 35 or when you're 30 or 40 maybe, you don't really remember 1985. It pays in my favor, I think. If I was just a famous personality, I don't think I was put in danger as if they knew that I had this body of work as a tennis player and maybe I had a lot of money or connections and so forth. Right.

A high-profile inmate would normally be put in protective custody. Correct. Like there's no way... It wasn't that all. I mean, it's a common knowledge that English prisons are overcrowded to a point where it's ridiculous. Could you tell? Yeah. Onceworth particularly, or both of them?

Once worth more because it was a much larger prison, about 2,000 prisoners in there. 2000. Yeah. And it's sort of, it's the first prison. I mean, there's one in the southwest, which is once where there, one in the northeast. So once you're convicted. and your sentence, you go in either one for a time being

until you transferred to your final prison or your final destination. From Wonsworth. So Wonsworth's what do they call a reception center? I don't know if you want to really call it a reception center, but it's sort of a base where everyone goes and then depending and then from there they go to another.

But even having said that there's many prisoners who stay a long time because it's the overcrowding. It's Just everywhere is so busy that they can't make a difference anymore, what crime you've done. Whatever sell is available, the next inmate goes in because of the problem. It's in for people, we have an international audience, believe it or not, who may not know Wandsworth is in southwest London.

SW18 is the postcode, just one digit off SW19, which is the postcode for Wimbledon. And they're about two miles, two and a half miles apart, aren't they? Yeah. A lot's been made of that strange symmetry. I don't know what sense you make of that, but it is weird, isn't it? I suppose you're there 30 years on, 35 years on from winning Wimbledon.

I mean, thinking about it, are you? Is that what's taking place? No, I mean, it's an incredible difference, yet it's so close to each other. I mean, when there's the once worth roundabout, you go far left to Wimbledon, and far right, you go to Wantsford Prison. So, I mean, I've been around about 10,000 times,

usually going left, and the one time I had to go right. And it's just a couple of miles from each other, meaning the best place where I can imagine is the room and the center court, and then the worst place I've ever been. It's H&P. Wonsford, so only two miles apart, and philosophically, you can just, you know, this book is partly about that. It's just how contrast lives are

within a couple of miles and you know I've experienced both it's almost a cliche of this kind of narrative that your friends quote unquote abandon you right and I'm just I don't mean to make light of it like you talk about Andrew

Castle the tennis player and TV presenter I think writes you a letter Juergen Klopp does he express an interest in making a visit but it's deemed that it'll be too disruptive correct there'll be too many Liverpool fans going crazy I guess Or just the fact that it was a very popular, you know, again, security is an issue in both prisons. So when family and friends visit you, the room is open for all criminals and their families.

And, you know, the police is just by numbers very small. So if one guy next to me wanted to get hold of Yergen Klopp, nobody could have stopped him. But why would they want to get hold of Yergen Kllob? Random security. gave me something just the director of the prison. Really? Yeah. I never thought about that. And we're talking really dangerous criminals. I mean, they wouldn't hold back. I mean, some of them are inside for 15, 18, 20 years. You know, for them, it makes no difference.

This is, I've forgotten the name of it again. That was the second one, Hunter Coombe. This is a Hunter Coombe. We're friends. He called me, you know, called him back. Yeah. Well, he can't call me. You used to be the most popular German person in Britain, but I think Juergen Klopp might be now. That's absolutely fine. Don't you think? I love him.

I love him, but he's done for Liverpool. It's amazing. No, he wanted to come. We tried twice, and then director just said, is you right? But for security reason, please forgive us for not allowing this, because we don't want to risk his safety, nor do we want to have an uproar in prison.

So for the popularity or safety reasons. I mean, once you're in this, visiting hall it's you and 16 other dangerous criminals Andrew Castle wanted to visit and you again you said I don't want him to but not for his safety it was more

it felt like you just didn't want it would have been a strange what mixture of context you're a different Boris in there and you didn't want to mix it up with the BBC commentary colleague no I didn't want to you know you in your bubble you're in your routine and I didn't want to

break out of that of course I loved a lot of thing my wife and my two oldest boys. But even that was difficult because I felt sorry for them. Why? Well, but they had to visit their father and their husband in a fucking prison.

I mean, who likes that, right? So I didn't want this to happen too often. Yes, of course, my wife insisted. And how was it? It was lovely for me, but then I go back to myself and they go back to their freedom. So for those two hours, you feel great.

But then you go back to the darkness and they go back to the light. So it was tough for them and it was tough for me. But I didn't want to have any other friends because what? I'm going to put on a story, a face. I'm going to tell them how good I am. No, I wasn't good. So I didn't want to play any role and I actually not playing. I made a decision of being always the way I am since I'm out.

I'm not playing any roles anymore if sponsors don't like it. if you don't like some of my answers, I don't care. I'm going to tell you my truth, whether you like it or not, and it serves me well. As a sportsman and as a celebrity, as a phenomenon, of course, you go into various roles and you want to please this and you want to be, I stopped that. I am who I am now, and that's the end of it. Must be strange at times waking up thinking, like, is this real? Because it does feel like a movie at times.

I don't know if they're going to make a movie out of it. I've had some requests already. It feels like a film. Yeah. The strangeness of one of the most famous and celebrated athletes in the world ends up in a prison just a few miles from the sight of his greatest accomplishment and, you know, age 50. And it must have been surreal. Did you not think, is this really real? Well, feeling sorry for yourself?

No. Or at least seeing your wife having to look at you and thinking, I feel so. awful that my wife and my kids have to see me like this. It must be strange. Well, it was it was really strange since I won Wimbledon. My life has been surreal ever since. And and you know, being in prison again felt surreal, weird, but it really fits my story a little bit. And ultimately, there's a circle of life that came together, which started in July of 85, and then finished in a way, in H&P 1, where I said, okay, and now what? Now what? It was very catharic almost of shedding all my excess, I call it excess luggage, excess layers, of who was I and what I have become,

I want to go back to who I really am. And those 231 days, it didn't have to last that long to learn the lesson. Sometimes I was in there and I said, I got the message. I got the message. I'm going to be different when I'm out and you still have to serve three months. But philosophically speaking, I think that first part of my life is complete now and I'm happy. I'm in a different part now because of that.

I don't think my life would have been good today if I wouldn't. I couldn't have gone to prison. Seriously, look, it was a shit time, okay, and it was embarrassing. And, you know, losing, losing all your money is all that. But maybe it was necessary to have a second part of my life that's now better, healthier, a little wealthier, and all that. Maybe I was on a losing streak, and that was the end of it. That's how I feel.

You know, as a man, I'm a man. As a man, I'm sure you're happily married and everything is good, but I wasn't. I turned 50 and I was like, my second marriage is going to pieces. This time is not my mistake, but it doesn't make it better. It goes to pieces. Maybe I'm not made for relationships. Maybe it's me. It was never difficult for me to have relationships, as they say, but to have a commitment, like maybe it's me.

Maybe it's not, I'm not good at it. So you go into acceptance mood, who say, maybe that's it. And then out of a completely blue moment, you know, I meet this girl, who doesn't even know that I was a tennis player, because she's too young for it, and slowly falls in love with me. And I go, why? I have nothing to offer you but my personality, my character.

And she says, here we go. And now, seven years later, you know, we talked to go on in, but we're having our first baby. I mean, if that isn't the movie, I don't know what this. And so because of all of that, I feel like I'm really blessed.

I'm lucky. I'm lucky to sit here, to come from the hospital. We're going to have a great, great dinner tonight and we have some good wine. That I can do that now. I'm in it. Ten years ago, I couldn't do that. So things happen for reasons.

and I'm a strong believer in my life is like that. The winning and the losing and everything else, and I feel like in this book is really a story that's unique, very personal. I mean, I opened up my pants. I mean, I've said how it is. Now, you can Google some of my things, and maybe Google doesn't even get it in Wikipedia,

you started off like this. But I say it how it is, and it serves me well now. Welcome back. What a great conversation. Am I complimenting myself, maybe? But I think I'm mainly commenting, complimenting Boris, and he brought his A-game. I joked at the beginning that an interview is a bit like a tennis match. And I think this one, it's not for me to say it'll go down as a classic, or even to say who won.

It's not zero-sum like that, but some good rallies. Okay, forget. The metaphor is getting tortured. Zooming out, for me, the grand narrative behind this conversation, maybe the paradigm is that for athletes, maybe I said this in the chat, they have this extraordinary first five to 15 years of their professional lives, like age is 18 through 30, let's say. I mean, you could say that's true for people in general.

Those are key years, but for athletes more than anyone. They're earning potential. their exposure to life, the way in which temptation is set before them, and the extraordinary things they achieve. All of that is supercharged, and then they've got another 60, 70 years to live, right? And what do you do with that? It must be strange. So that's definitely something Boris had to deal with. And he made mistakes.

I think he would agree, and he's tried to learn from them. Do we ever learn for mistakes? I sometimes wonder, you know, this idea, oh, I've arrived now, I've figured something out, I'm wise. Actually, we are always sort of self-overcoming. What I was struck by, among other things, was, and again, I mentioned this in the chat, his physical debility. he came in struggling to walk, bearing the war wounds of a life spent punishing himself on the court. He was known for his very physical playing style, boom, boom, becker. There were certain dives, lunges that he attempted that others probably would have pulled out of. And the bill came due for that in later years.

he said I pulled my pants down for the book and I was happy to inspect what lay beneath to metaphorically cradle his manhood to tell him to cough and turn to the left and diagnose what was going on I was looking underneath the hood if you like hood is an expression

I'm thinking about cars now what were you thinking of the manhood hello is anybody out there. We went out for dinner afterwards. Boris bought me dinner. Let's say what we call a journalistic disclosure. It did not affect my professional objectivity. It was an enjoyable evening talking about more of life, Shea Boris and his world. I said at the beginning I'd been arrested. I was arrested for trying to buy marijuana, ladies and gentlemen.

Stay away from it. In Washington Square Park, in maybe 1998, I didn't do porridge. I got a ticket and then I had to go out on assignment and I couldn't make the court date. And then I think I went back to the police station when I got back and they said, You're a fugitive from justice. I'm like, well, that's not good. But I paid my fine and I think I cleared my name. I also got arrested while making an episode of Weird Weekends

about black nationalists in New York and I took part in a demonstration against police brutality. And I rode down with some other protesters to the New York jail and spent a couple of hours in jail doing my book for social justice. you're welcome. Anyway, it's always nice to talk to someone outside the world of show business as well. So other athletes, please get in touch.

We would love to talk to you. You don't need to have been to prison or be convicted on serious charges. Just being outstanding in your field. That's about it for this episode. I'll leave you with credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Mann Al-Jasuri. manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive

producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker. and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back

and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot.

Turn those dreams into sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S.