The Louis Theroux Podcast - S7 EP2: Kyle MacLachlan on his relationship with David Lynch, Showgirls, and viral stardom

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

In this episode, Louis speaks with Kyle MacLachlan, muse of iconic director David Lynch and internet “babygirl”. Kyle tells Louis about working with Lynch on Twin Peaks and Blue Velvet,��why he will never watch Paul Verhoeven’s Showgirls, and going viral on TikTok.   Watch Season 2 of Fallout on Prime Video now.     Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    TV Show: ‘Fallout’ (2024 - Now) - Prime Video  http://amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B0FLT3NNDQ/ref=atv_dp_season_select_s2    TV Show: Twin Peaks (1990) - ABC  https://www.paramountplus.com/gb/shows/twin_peaks/    Blue Velvet (1986)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/blue-velvet/umc.cmc.33lsrdtequl92bh2q4qufz09j?action=play    Easy Rider (1969)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/     Apocalypse Now (1979)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/apocalypse-now/umc.cmc.34p6g8esi62ncametagl3s7ao?action=play     Eraserhead (1977)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/     The Elephant Man (1980)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080678/    Dune (1984)   https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/dune/umc.cmc.7edgw5obp2gwx0xsyhla10zbc?action=play     Instagram Post: Kyle about David Lynch  https://www.instagram.com/p/DE5pC5RyH29/?hl=en&img_index=1     Dune (2021)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/dune/umc.cmc.2l7qj9p33t3jww1roxi8cgiw5?action=play     White Nights (1985)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090319/     TV Show: Portlandia (2011-2018) - IFC  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1780441/     TV Show: Desperate Housewives (2004 – 2012) - ABC  https://tv.apple.com/gb/episode/pilot/umc.cmc.1nlhsa37c9fb3k7i79tls86l4?showId=umc.cmc.764fqtvvzfic5cig1ubycwn4&action=playSmartEpisode     TV Show: Sex and the City (1989 – 2004) - HBO  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159206/     The Hidden (1988)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/the-hidden/umc.cmc.xpfv9tdbmpijtg30s9sofdq7?action=play     The Doors (1991)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101761/     Showgirls (1995)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114436/     Podcast: What Are We Even Doing? With Kyle MacLachlan - IHeartPodcasts  https://open.spotify.com/show/4Q0EAcipmnanJtijhZR4Id     Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/     Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/     TikTok Post: Kyle’s viral post  https://www.tiktok.com/@kyle_maclachlan/video/7561193641553726750     TV Show: ‘How I Met Your Mother’ (2005 – 2014) - CBS  https://tv.apple.com/gb/episode/pilot/umc.cmc.3gahlb7gzcf4n4vm56n4et5um?showId=umc.cmc.hrenotb7pqaz2mo61vph1gwj&action=playSmartEpisode     RoboCop (1987)  https://www.itv.com/watch/robocop/ROBOCOP/CFD2301a0001     Inland Empire (2006)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460829/     TV Show: ‘The Last of Us’ (2023 – Now) - HBO  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3581920/     ‘Dennis Hopper’s Best Moments as Frank’ - Youtube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1CQgHeoe14    M (1931)   https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022100/     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Mark Maughan  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, Louis Theroux here. Welcome back to the Louis Theroux podcast. I'm joined for this episode by American actor and internet baby girl. That's a term, apparently. Kyle McLaughlin. Kyle is perhaps best known for his collaborative relationship with iconic American uteur David Lynch. Over the course of 30 odd years, Kyle starred in many of Lynch's best known works. Twin Peaks. Surely you've seen Twin Peaks. The surrealist neo-noir TV series co-created by Mark Frost,

where he plays Special Agent Dale Cooper. Damn Good Coffee is his catchphrase. But before that, he was in David Lynch's Blue Velvet in 1986. That was the first thing I saw him in as a young 16-year-old. Or maybe it was 17. And his first movie role, which was in Lynch's adaptation of June in 1984. Other notable pictures include Oliver Stone's The Doors, that comes up in the chat, Paul Verhoeven's showgirls, and many more. He's also been a mainstay of the small screen playing characters in. Mammoth hits like Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives and Portlandia. I watched some Portlandia episodes in the run-up to doing the interview, and you'll be pleased to know that one of the standout moments from the series comes up,

that's the moment when Kyle, who plays the mayor of Portlandia, has to sing the Portlandia, has to sing the Portland anthem and improvises it on the spot. So stay tuned for that. Kyle, older man that he is, as I am too, so I can say that, has managed, like me, to stay massively relevant by taking the internet by storm, specifically going viral with his social media accounts where he lip sinks along to artists like Charlie X.E.

ex-Lord and Chapel Rowan. We talk about that. I said at the beginning, baby girl, it's so cringe. It makes me want to puke. Is this what the younger generation is doing? It's a kind of term for a safe, non-threatening male energy that he's modelling. And that's nice. Why did I want to speak to Kyle? Well, obviously because I'm a fan of his work in general, but most specifically of the stuff that he's done with David Lynch. Blue Velvet is an iconic movie. And I remember seeing it and having a huge impact. And the combination of that, well, that baby girl quality of safe male energy or some sort of old-school, non-threatening manliness. but when it's put into the phantasmagoria of the Lynch imagination,

the two, it's like a yin and a yang, the two things work together. So it's a chance to talk about Lynch and Hollywood, but also the ways in which perhaps that Lynch association has been both a huge source of pride, but a kind of, well, so definitive that in certain ways he speaks of, how it may have restricted him from other roles, the way in which he's seen by other directors. So it was an opportunity to talk about one of the most celebrated

and respected directors in history. Also, I really enjoyed Fallout, the series that he's promoting at the moment. My cousin is in it as well. So all of that was grist to my podcasting mill. I'll talk more in the outro. The other thing, which comes up early, is my wife, Nancy, isn't just a fan of Kyle's work.

It turns out she had a crush, something more than a cry, a borderline erotic fixation as a teenager on Kyle. And we've dug out her diary. And so I might even dig into that in the outro. But Kyle arrived at the conversation, perfectly quaffed and wearing a blue suede jacket. Did you feel a bit underdressed? Millie has written.

Not at the time, but I do now that I've read that, I think I looked fine. He's a handsome guy. Like if the metric is, are you as good looking and as well-groomed as a top Hollywood actor? No, I'm not. But I'm not, that's not my benchmark.

I'm just trying to stay ahead of the rest is politics guys. and someone came in and fixed Kyle's hair like during the chat I think no one ever does that for me we can arrange that says Millie I think I'm good a quick warning this conversation contains some strong language and adult themes

it contains lynch themes which you know horrific monster babies acts of sexual violence, people taking drugs, plus me doing a kind of Dennis Hopper impersonation, right? I think that we put that in, didn't we? So all of that and much, much more coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics,

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and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-U-I-S. I mean, there's a lot to talk about, and I just want to get this out of the way, so it's not awkward. It turns out my wife had a bit of. crush on you growing up. I mean, I hate putting it in the past tense that she might just be being kind. She probably still does. She's keeping that part secret. Well, that's very fun.

But when she would have been about, she would have been what, 15, 16 maybe? Right. Oh, okay. When Twin Peaks was at its apex? Ah, yeah. Twin Peaks, I mean, everyone knows what Twin Peaks is, but people, the younger people may not realize what a phenomenon that was. It was the biggest TV show it got like it was it had a big impact but it was 19 1989 well we filmed it 89 and 90 but the thing about it louis it was so interesting looking back was that we did the pilot of course and then we did uh i think and i lose track of it seven episodes or eight episodes i never remember all before we even went to air so they were in the can done and dusted um so when they were when they when it came out again, no one really knew, there wasn't like a buildup. Like now you'd shoot a bunch

and then you'd start airing them while you were still filming, you know, so you'd have a sense of kind of what was happening with it. We didn't have any idea. And we were in fact, what they called a mid-season replacement. So we came on late in the television year, which would have been in the fall, sorry, the spring of that year. So there was some time for people to digest and kind of come determines with the fact that this was a really extraordinary show. And then ABC came back again and said, we're going to buy the next season. And at that point in time, we kind of knew what we had.

It was out the gate. It was immediately taken up by fans. It was. The ratings were. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. I mean, the backdrop to this, of course, is that it was the creation of the brilliant

sinist, autos, visionary David Lynch. A friend of yours, a close collaborator. You'd made Dune. That was the first film you made just out of college. And then you made blue velvet, which I'd love to talk a bit more about. But that sensibility of, sometimes call it neo-noir, drawing on parts of expressionist cinema, parts of it is just old Hollywood. Parts of it is his background as an artist. He trained as an artist and painter.

And part of it is just his unique genius, right? Yes. Which combined surrealism, darkness, with a kind of optimistic, all-American vision of picket fences, literally in the cases of blue velvet. With, as I say, the underbelly of machinating evil. Anyway, that was a long kind of...

I'm just painting the scene. That was beautifully done. I think the segue is that you wouldn't necessarily think he was a mainstream proposition for the corned. Fed American public. Yes, ABC. ABC, corn fed. It still works.

But that means for Middle America, you know, the flyover, so-called who are used to Charles in charge and I don't know. Happy days. The shows that were on at that time were. If you like that, how about a film about deranged surreal

vision of murder, mayhem, and intrigue, you know, with the side order of hellscapes and bizarre imagery. Do you know what I mean? Uh-huh, yes. How do you think it connected? Why did it connect? And how did you experience that?

It was a different time. So the immediacy of that impact was felt... Did you know it was going to be a hit, I guess? No, I don't think so. I know it we didn't. And I don't think to a person they felt that. It was the idea that David Lynch was going to do something for mainstream network television was in and of itself. absolutely remarkable, unheard of at that particular moment in time.

Who do we have to thank for that? Is there some... Well, there are... You know, Bob Eager, of course, was head of ABC, so he'll take full credit. Who now is the head of Disney? Yeah. And Bob had... You know, he was there, so...

Deserve some rightfully so. But there were other people that were in the trenches, so to speak, that recognized it as something special. And... When they've gone to David and said, we'd like something from you. Like, we see something. There was something, they negotiated.

The agents actually put together, put David and Mark Frost together, said you guys should work on something together. Tony Krantz, I think was his name. And so they created the cauldron, I guess. And from that relationship with David and Mark, Mark Frost, they came up with Twin Peaks. And then ABC bought the idea they sold the show. They bought it as a backdoor pilot,

which meant it was going to be made. And then, but if it didn't really work or they didn't want to put it on air, then they could have put it on as a movie of the week. That's what we used to have back then. And that's so there was an ending that was actually made, which was then revealed in episode two of the season, because they did buy it and they bought seven. But yeah.

They had a backout plan in case it didn't connect. They always, yeah, everybody did. Everything that was, every pilot had a, like the idea that it just didn't work. And it was good enough because they spent the money. They said, well, we can repurpose it as a movie. of the week. And that was what they were going to do. It follows Laura Palmer, her dead body's on the shore of a, is it a lake or a river?

It's like a lake, yeah, or like a bay. She's been murdered. Yeah. Your agent, Dale Cooper, a special FBI agent. But it's so much more than that. But what exactly is it? We don't know. We're still asking that question, Louis.

You know, it's a murder mystery, small town. full of interesting people, you know, like a soap opera, sort of serial sort of situation. Episode follows episode. But it's so much more than that because the tone, the way the characters behaved, was the music, the look, of course, was unlike anything that was on television at the time.

The rhythms of that show, if you go back and look at it again, still resonate because they're not television rhythms. their feature rhythms, and they're uncomfortable. And David loves that. There's this humor in people being uncomfortable, which I think I find interesting, actually. The audience being uncomfortable? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He doesn't mind that at all. Even the actors can be uncomfortable sometimes. I've been uncomfortable. Come on. Maybe in the return, when I played characters in the sequel, I guess, maybe years later, there were some moments. But let's stick with 89-90 for the moment.

And part of it is drawing on Blue Velvet. And Blue Velvet, I don't mean literally, but there's a similar quality in Blue Velvet, which, Blue Velvet, which, by the way, I watched the first couple of Twin Peaks again just to get back in the vibe, and then watched Blue Velvet a couple of nights back. Thank you.

Both of them really hold up. Blue Velvet's an amazing film. It is. Most people will know this, but it's routinely listed as one of the greatest American films of the last hundred years. Yeah. So specific to David. Yes. Yeah.

And again, it's hard to describe, except it's a little like a film noir. It's following a mystery, an ear. You find an ear in a field. While pinging a tin can, or you're throwing rocks. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're throwing rocks at a, I don't know if I was throwing it bottles or a house.

Or a window or something. You're a college kid who's come home because his dad's not well. Yeah. And you go to the hospital on the way. out, you're pinging, you're tuck in these rocks and then you find a severed ear that leads you securitously into this underworld.

A lot of it hinges on a character called Frank Booth who you end up spying on Isabella Rossellini as she's is no nice way of saying this assaulted, sexually assaulted by the Dennis Hopper character Frank Booth. I know.

Intense. Those scenes are very intense. Yeah. Well, he found Jeffrey, he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah, Jeffrey Beaumont. And he's, you know, he's intrigued with Isabella's character of Dorothy Valens. And he's there and he doesn't really know what to do,

but he's attracted to her. And while he's in the apartment... She finds you in the closet first. Yes. And she's crossed, but she's intrigued. Yes. Isabella Rossellini, who's got this faint sort of what about French or European accent,

It's one of the many intriguing details that in this, it's called Lumberton, in this sort of kind of unprepossessing small Midwestern or is it, maybe it's northwestern. It could be anywhere. And then for some reason, they've got this mysterious chanteurs

who sings at the local nightclub. It's definitely not taking place quite in the real world. Right. It's a world adjacent to the real world. Would you agree? I agree. Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm so comfortable there.

Dennis Hopper has, said, apparently that part was offered initially to Willem Defoe. Had you heard that? Oh, it makes sense, but I hadn't, yeah. I guess Dennis Hopper heard about it. He said, this is me. I am, Frank. Yeah, yeah.

Quite a statement. Yes, right? Well, Dennis, we were all intimidated to meet Dennis the first time because of all the stories, of course. Right. A legend who had been, acted alongside James Dean back in the day. Oh, my God. A complete legend.

But a wild man. A wild man, yeah. He's a rider. Yeah. Yeah, he's your writer, his film. And in one of my favorite films of all time, Apocalypse now. And he's absolutely crazy in that. He don't know if it's...

He plays a crazy photographer who's hanging out with Colonel Kurtz. Yeah, yeah. I can't do it. If I could do it, he's the... He's the big man. He's a, you know, he's a... I'm a little man. I'm a little man.

I'm a very little man. What are fractions? How do you do with the fraction? You know, he's the whole... I'm just watching him going, that's the most beautiful improv, or the craziest improv I've ever seen. I met him and I said, oh my God, he's been sober for two years.

And he came in and he was so warm and, you know, genuinely interested in meeting you and genuinely a curious man, a curious person. And he had recognized in David the genius. And David to that point, you know, he'd done... Eraserhead, Elephant Man, Dune, which had not gone well. And so this was pretty early in his career, but Dennis recognized him, a fellow artist. And when he signed on his Frank, he recognized, he said, I, when he said, I am Frank, it's like, I know this person because I have been him, I think, during his crazy period.

And he said, I can, I think I'm at a place now where I can channel that without it taking me over, you know. And he did just an extraordinary job. I basically just reacted in the scenes with him. I wasn't acting. I was just completely terrified. Were you? I'm a bit of a new. about movie making.

So those scenes were in the closet and you're looking through like a slatted door peeking through. Are you actually looking at it? Like are you there? No, no, no. The scenes between Dennis and Isabella

that you were talking about, the ones that she was, when she was sexually assaulted, were done close set. You weren't there for that. No one was there for that apart from the absolutely essential crew members.

But David would be there talking me through, okay, Kale, you know, He called you kale. What was that about? That was a reference. The first thing we did together was Dune, which was produced by Dino de Lerentis,

the famous Dino de Lerentis. And Dino had a very, very strong accent. And he couldn't pronounce my name. So instead of Kyle, it was Gale. Gale, but it more like this. Gale. He called Laura Dern. Tidbit.

Tidbit. Yeah, tidbit. So she called him tidbit back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was crazy. He had nicknames for, a lot of people.

Oh, fuck, anything that moves. I'm not doing it. That's not me. That's not me as me. No, no. You're obviously playing a character. I can't. I can't. Don't you fucking look at me? I can't do it at all. Pretty intense, right? Think of what's happening in that mind. Do you have any thoughts on what he's inhaling from a mask?

Yes, yeah. Do we know what he was inhaling? Well, there were a couple stories. One was David had thought maybe helium. because in David's mind he thought that the changing of the voice to a child, he wanted it more to be like a child's voice. Because they say he's two characters, he's either daddy or baby in the act of his almost sexual psychosis when he's in that moment. Yes.

But when they heard it back, it just was everyone laughed. And it was all the menace went right out of it. So Dennis said, why don't we think it's something like a nitrous, some kind of a thing? and so and he kind of changed his voice he got kind of in here when he was in that moment but it was meant to be some kind of a stimulant and then other people say it wasn't anything at all

it was just an affectation he just had it just for whatever it was that he needed to have so I don't know in a documentary on the 2002 special edition version of the film Hopper says the drug was amyl nitrate an angina medication used recreationally as an inhalant in the disco club scene

oh poppers poppers yeah we know know them as poppers. One of the observations, by the way, I know you're here to talk about Fallout, and that's a brilliant TV show. Thank you. We want that to be a big hit. I don't want you to think I'm neglecting my duties.

No, no, I feel like we're kind of working our way up to it. That's there. Yes. But back in Lynchland, he passed away recently. Just a few months ago. He was notoriously averse to over-explaining. Yes. And you wrote rather a beautiful appreciation of him.

after he died, making the same point that perhaps he wouldn't have needed to make the movies if he hadn't, if he'd been able to fully explain them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. What were, I know, I'm going to learn it. It's so basic. What was he driving as? What's going on? I don't, I, you know, I have my thoughts. I don't know. I do know that David, he had a tremendous lightness around him and a joy, particularly in the creative environment that I think somehow it allowed him to visit, create, interact with the darker sides of things, things that a lot of people would turn away from, David would look at, you know,

and draw some kind of creative power from. I don't, he didn't dwell in those worlds. He didn't that I could see. They weren't part of his personality. He was always up and really fun and joyful. And then when he wasn't, you know, in a blink of an eye, he was, you know. Which was kind of amazing. I think people assume that he lived this very sort of dark and tortured existence, which wasn't the case at all.

But that was part of his, I feel, part of his creative source material, for lack of a better word. So that's what I've always sort of put it to. When you connected with him, what was the process? What do you think he saw in you that he thought, well, look, let me make it really good. You're on record as saying, sometimes it was as though I was a creation of his mind. I don't just mean Jeffrey Beaumont, Special Agent Dale Cooper with David Lynch creations. I mean Carl McLaughlin too.

This version of me doesn't exist without him. Yeah, it was definitely a connection of, meeting of the minds of somehow with us. And for a long time, I didn't really understand, I probably still have it wrong, but I didn't really understand what it was. And then I began to realize, no, I am kind of a stabilizing force in the worlds

that he has generated that allows the audience to come with me. So in some ways, I'm putting the audience on my back and we're going through this together. And there is a grounding or a stabilizing or sort of an every man. Acceptance isn't exactly the right word for what it happens, but I think there's definitely, there's some kind of allowing of these things to happen

without too much judgment and just passing through these worlds. And I think that was true in Blue Velvet with Jeffrey and certainly in Twin Peaks, certainly in Twin Peaks. Did he give you much direction? It's been said that he would say things like more wind, or think Elvis. Yeah, they were more, more sensations,

which I would interpret in a certain way. So Elvis was one, wind, more mystery. Sometimes it was just a hand gesture like this. Sometimes there wasn't anything said at all. We do, I do a scene, and we do cut, you know, and I'd stay for a minute, and David, we could sort of stand together. And I'm thinking back through the scene,

and I'm going, I think, and he's not quite resolved. He's sort of pulling, he stands, people are pulling on his lip. And it wasn't really any kind of, nothing said, and I said, and I would say say something, I'd say, let me try this one thing.

And I wouldn't even say what it was, and he'd be great, great, great, great kale, you know. And I would then, I would interpret something or something would have come to me, I don't know, and I would try slightly different. And usually it was, we were, it was the right thing, you know. So we did have a shorthand for sure. When June came out

You mentioned Like it wasn't a huge hit I don't know what they were expecting Presumably they wanted to make a lot of money Yeah He said he wasn't happy He actually described that as enormously painful I think

Yeah Yeah Do you know what that was about Well I think it was It had to do with just the cut and time And he wasn't able to do what he wanted You know it was a massive thing To go from Elephant Man to Dune

I mean the scale alone was you know, we had eight sound stages going full on and locations as well in Mexico City and at the time I didn't, I was my first film, I had no idea how this whole thing worked, you know, and I just said, oh, this is how you make a movie. You know, you buy up all the sound stages, you fill them to the very edge,

and you just go shoot. But it was, there were hundreds and hundreds of people that were, you know, constantly needing to, you know, questions, questions, questions, questions, questions. And I don't think David was comfortable in that environment. You know, it was very, very challenging. And so I think there was a struggle there,

and there was a struggle, I think, in terms of the cut and how long it could be. And it's a movie that you can't possibly do. And I think we were two hours, 16 minutes. There's no way you can just barely scratch the surface. You know, the more recent one, they've got three, you know what I mean? You were in the Timothy Shalamey role, in a sense? Yes, yes.

Or he was in the Carmelman role. Exactly, exactly. You had the buffon hair. I had great hair. In common. Yeah. Yes. Yes, that was about it.

I haven't watched the new one. New one. He does a great job. He does a great job. He's a great actor. He's a terrific talent. It came out in 84. It was not, as we said, a huge success.

But then you had Blue Velvet. He'd already cast you in Blue Velvet. That came out. That was a hit. Was that a hit straight? Not really. People did not know what to make of it. Right.

And it took Pauline Kale's sort of intellectual review, I guess, to help people understand. where David was coming from, you know, that this is a different voice. Was it Pauline Kale that she did she kind of anoint it? She did. She got it. Yeah, she did. What did she say about him? I don't remember.

Porni Kale, a legendary New Yorker film critic, I should say. She just, she just, I remember there was, I don't remember anything specific, just the fact that this is, this is a voice that needs to be, a visionary that needs to be seen and experienced. And she just presented a different way into the movie that most critics, I think, were not either willing to sort of go, or didn't understand. And she just very succinctly pointed everybody in the right direction. One review like that can change the narrative? At that time, yeah, it helped tremendously. She was really well respected.

Roger Ebert. Didn't like it so much, you know. But Roger, you know, he had strong points of view. Some things he loved, some things he hated. One star was his verdict. Yes, well, we got a star. I don't think zero stars was an option. Weirdly, though, he actually,

I mean, it's a brilliant film. I hope I've made that clear. But what I got from his review was that, yeah, this is really interesting. And Isabella Rossellini in particular, he singles out. But he feels like the sex and violence wasn't treated with enough seriousness. Yeah. Yeah.

I know he objected to that side of the film, those elements. And I can understand it's such strong stuff. It would be weird if it didn't lose a few people. Do you know what I mean? No, it's not easy to sit through. That's tough. what Isabella goes through, those scenes were, I mean, incredibly difficult. She suffered a lot, too, actually.

Do you think so? Yeah, she lost a contract with some of the cosmetic things she was doing. She was sort of blacklisted from it. She was, people were, yeah, people were up in arms. They were appalled, you know, because I think she was still carrying some of the, you know, the daughter of Ingrid Bergman, you know, and that, what happened to her? And there was some, you know. What happened to Ingrid Bergman?

She was, well, she was married. She was a... To Roberto Rosalini, the director of her? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had left her husband for Roberto Rosalini, and she moved to Italy, and she was, you know, the great actress, the American actress,

and suddenly she turned her back on that and, you know, left her husband and her children and, you know, everything like that. So big deal, yeah. So there was a lot of judgment. I didn't know that. Yeah, I may not have that history exact,

but I know that there was definitely not looked... It was sort of frowning. upon what she did at that time. That's interesting. I didn't realize. Very brave of Isabella Rossellini to take on the role. Had she done much acting before? Not a lot. Not a lot. She was mainly a model, right? Yeah, yeah. And she had done a little bit. I think, I don't think she had done white nights yet.

I don't know if she'd done a couple things. Was she in white nights with Mikhail Barysnikov? Yeah. And Gregory Hines? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Taking me back now. I know. We're going deep. Gee. But she was, we had rehearsals. She asked if we could. could do some rehearsals of these particular scenes just so she could get a sense of what was

going to be asked of her, you know, that she could feel comfortable with. And she was comfortable with a lot of things. And we just, you know, we very gently walked through all the pieces, you know, as you do, you know, just so everyone is comfortable. This was before there was any, now they have, you know, people that are there for, what do they call it? Intimacy coordinates. Yeah, exactly. And that didn't exist. But we were all treating it exactly as they would. You know, I'm making sure everybody is comfortable with everything

that we're doing. And she is exposed literally, figuratively. There's a fine line between kind of awfulness and comedy and some of it. One of her lines is, she says to you after you've had sex,

do you remember the line? She says, now you put, yeah, you put your disease in me or something to that effect. Yeah. And then later on, she turns up naked in front of your house. Yes, that was a shocking night.

And then you take her inside and then, or is it the house of the Laura Dern character, and then Isabella Rossellini naked, has her arms around you, she's kind of, you're looking a little bit awkward, I won't say stiff, and she's saying, he put his disease in me, and then we see Laura Dernan, like, what the hell? Yeah, yeah, not a good night for Jeffrey. It's kind of funny, though. It's funny.

He put his disease in me. It's like farce almost. Yeah, yeah. I think, or is there something wrong with me? No, no, I think you're, I think you're catching exactly with David. It's a mix of in highly tense situations, right? There is people laugh, you know, they can't help it. And I think there's something in the thing of like, I don't know, like I'm going to try this out.

Like with David Lynch, there's a little bit of horror of bodily functions. I'm going to try it. Or just the human condition, like our physicality. So with the sex, with Frank, he's going like, oh, mommy, I want to get in there. Don't look at me. Oh, mommy, I don't like it. And it's like, it's kind of funny but horrific. And then he put his disease in me.

Yeah. Like bodily, like there's something about the physicality that we are squeamish about. Yeah. And he's right there and making you look. Making you look at it. And there you are. Don't you fucking look at me, but. Don't you fucking look at me.

That's crazy. To what extent do you feel you're a creature of Hollywood? Not really. I mean, you've had a kind of consistent career. You've been working. Your track record, I mean, there's so many things we could talk about. We could talk about Portlandia, which is brilliant. Oh, that's fun.

We could talk about desperate housewives. There's a certain continuity, which is that very often it feels like you're playing off an all-American archetype, either in a way that's uncomplicatedly good and benign, or in a way where it's a deceptive exterior for someone who's more troubling and devious. But you're always there. I guess you have that kind of, you have those good looks of yours, God damn you. My wife was so, and may still be so besotted with. I think there is a little, they're odd a little bit, a little not traditional.

Yeah, it's a little different, you know. Go on. Well, I feel that part of that part of that is just slightly off, you know. I'm not seeing that. Well, maybe, I mean, I see it, I guess. I just, chins too big, things are little out of proportion. No. You know.

No. Are you just saying that? Maybe unless, because I'm from the, in the UK, I'm Scottish and English. Yeah. Yes. You fit right in. And this is the only place people can spell my name or pronounce my name. So that's, that's, that's, there's are my people.

So maybe I'm going on here. Thank you. Welcome home. Happy to have you. I was trying to figure out who your peer group was, how conscious of you were, how conscious, because people of a similar age, I looked this up. You were born in 59, the same year as Val Kilmer. Yeah, I love Al.

Tom Cruz, learn of him. Yeah, he's familiar. Yeah, yeah. Done a few things. 1962, so he'd be three years younger. Clooney. Yeah. He's born 61.

Tom Hanks, 56. Yeah. He was born, so he'd be three years older than you. Yeah. The big daddy. Yeah. Did you see that as your peer group? Were you competitive in any way?

I did not see that as my peer group at all. I felt like I was sort of in a satellite. orbit sort of around Hollywood sometimes getting closer and then sometimes quite far away. What was your, I feel weird asking, what was your time of maximum heat? Maximum heat. Well, you know, it's a cycle, right? Obviously now, the first answer is now. Yeah, I'm kind of up, yeah, I've gone, the bell curve, I'm up, I'm up higher now.

I've been very low. I was sort of low during sort of the 90s, the mid-90s, although there was sex in the city. which was early 2000s. So basically, after Blue Velvet Pauline Kale, it was embraced, maybe it was a sleeper of a sort. Kind of slow, yeah, slow. Certainly a cult. Oh, yeah, and that sort of pushed me into more of the cult side of things,

you know what I mean. Did Hollywood, then you must have done a bunch of meetings, and everyone's like, you're the coming man? No, no, not really. No, it wasn't the coming man at all. It was the weird outsider. So I started, those kind of things started to kind of filter in. And I was like, I'm not really, I don't really feel like this is, I can be the weird outsider with David,

but I'm not the weird outsider in a regular movie that didn't make sense to me. And I said, I don't, I'm not that person. So I just was like, I'm kind of between two worlds. I played a fun character in The Hidden, who was from another world, another planet, but ultimately good. In some ways, I feel like there may have been a few directors who were not, interested in working with me because of the stamp of working with David was so strong, you know, if it was between not, Dune, not so much, but Blue Velvet for sure and Twin Peaks for sure, the identity was very strongly, you know, identified with Lynch, which I, at the time

I was like, I felt sort of ambivalent about, but now, of course, I'm absolutely thrilled that I was able to be part of that universe. It comes with age and maturity, I guess. What would have been ambivalent making about it? The fact that I think it was so strongly identified that there were other opportunities that I didn't feel were necessarily available to me at that time. There was an actor that was trying to, you know, do everything, you know. That was what I was trying to do.

So it was an odd time, you know. And I think Twin Peaks and the doors happened right about the same time. The doors, the Oliver Stone movie? Yeah. Yeah, so that was... Which has Val Kilmer in. Yeah, it was Val. So the crazy story is Val was sort of a top choice.

for Dune for the role of Paul and then I came in... Yoral, yeah, and then I came in and sort of unseated him and then we turned around and we did the doors years later and so then I was, he was the lead, you know, was Jim and I was Ray Comanzeric. Yeah, you could have played

Ray Manzzeric by the way. You have the right looking build, puts mutton chops on you, get a nice... I think I might be a little long... I could do the... Yeah, yeah. The autumn years of Ray Manzor. Yeah, yeah, it would be perfect, actually. You played a piano, or are you? keyboardists, but they just cut away, fingers cut away.

Yes, yes, yes. Hands of Manzarek played by, yeah. But what was your point was that you and Val were kind of trading off, or that Hollywood was keeping you at arm's leg? No, no, we sort of trading. That was sort of an interesting sort of dynamic that happened, you know. But there were other things that sort of came and went. But it was definitely, there was, you know, periods of lull where there was not,

And let's say the phone wasn't ringing or, you know, for whatever reason. And then, you know, sex in the early 2000, sex in the city and Desperate Housewives sort of brought me back into favor a little bit, I guess. And that sort of carried through. And then Portlandia sort of was kind of a sleeper, you know, kind of. We should shout out. You know, Portlandia was on the IFC in America. I'm not sure what it was on over here.

But you can easily find clips on YouTube. And this morning I had the great pleasure of watching you performing the Portland anthem. Yes. As the mayor of Portland. Yes. Yes. That was a terrifying day. Tell me about that.

I set it up for us. It's extraordinary. So, yes, I'm the mayor of Portland. It's a sketch comedy show. Yeah. It's starring, yes. But with recurring characters. Fred Armisen, Carrie Brownstein have a sketch comedy.

Yeah. Set in Portland, the mythical place of Portlandia. And Fred and Carrie play a number of different roles. I am consistently playing the mayor. I'm not in every episode. I've come in and, you know, I have a few episodes. And they have a cast of eccentric characters. And it is.

It's sort of sketch, skit kind of improv, a lot of improv. Is it? In fact, that first season, which is when I think I did the song, I think it was the first season or maybe a second season, the director, Jonathan Chrysle had said, you're going to sing, we were in the mayor's office. You're going to sing a song here to Portland. We're going to sing a song.

And I said, okay, that's great. you have, is there music? And he said, yes, yes, yes. I got you the music. So he finally got me the music, which I was listening to, which is sort of a symphonic kind of thing. Wasn't really any, I said, there's no melody here. But I was like, okay, well, something I doubt.

When they give me the words, then I'll figure it out. And I kept asking for the words. And finally, Johnson said, no, there's no words. You're going to have to make it up. And I said, you want me to improv a song to Portland with this music. Just, you know, just, it wasn't rhetorical. And he said, yes, yes, he said. And I said,

And he turned away and tried to walk away. And I was like Jonathan. And he turned back and he said, make it a love letter to Portland. And so that's what I grabbed onto. That's all I had. And I said, a love letter of Portland. Okay, okay.

And go. And scene. So the music starts, and I didn't know what it did. I just said, for some reason in my head, I said, William Shatner, channel your inner William Shatner. And I do a very bad sort of spock, bones, I need more, more. So I do this, the physicality of that, and you can kind of see as I'm singing, and I thought, I'll just do Shatner.

What would Shatner do in this moment? And so, Portland, you know, he would be fearless, and he would be so self-involved and so confident. And so I just said, okay, and I just said, I don't know, wherever comes to mind you're going to say, you know, something about a cigarette and this, and whatever I say, good night to you. You're talking about the birds, the frogs.

Yes, I did. It was literally just three of course. conscious and I was like but the goal ultimately was try to make Fred and Kerry laugh to try to make them break and I think I came close they were very tough oh that's too good

there's the inside scoop you mentioned it earlier was this feeling that in some ways your connection with Lynch was the best thing that could have happened and in other ways it felt at times like it was limiting or it put its mark on you in a way that

I think that was, yeah, but I don't know how that may have been coming from me, honestly, and from some of the reactions that I was getting from, you know, from Hollywood, we talk about it and some of the things that were available to me at the time and the things that were coming to me. And I felt like I needed to sort of push against that. Showgirls was an effort to push against that. And then at a certain point in time in your life, in one's life, in my life, you realize, stop.

the career is going to be what the career is going to be and, you know, follow your passion, follow what you believe in, follow what you want to do. And there were opportunities that came and I just embraced it. You did an interview with David Duchavne who has a podcast. Everyone has a podcast. Everyone's got a podcast now. You're not alone. There's a lot of competition. You're doing pretty good.

You said people weren't interested. Audition was the only way. It was all of that. And I responded by being cavalier. by saying, fuck it, letting inspiration carry the day. It was a bad attitude to her. Yes. Yes. What is that? You mean that you weren't, you basically...

Oh, I think it had more to do with the rejection side. Everyone deals with rejection in a different way. And if you don't care, going in, just a self-preservation protection mechanism, I think. And so that was some of it for sure. Kind of tanking the audition. Well, just, yeah, or just sort of relying on inspiration. inspiration going in and what's going to happen, which is like flying without Annette,

which is thrilling too, but ultimately probably not sustainable. But then you came out the other side of that. I did. I did. I mean, what strikes me is that as much as you feel that David Lynch, as you put it, kind of, what created you or had some... Well, he certainly, yeah, he found me,

gave me that first opportunity. And then after the first opportunity was not well received, came back to me for Blue Velvet a second time. And granted, we had talked about Blue Velvet while we were filming Dune, but he didn't have to come back to me, you know, especially if I, as I had been identified

with a film, it didn't work. And so I was not, no longer that value, a lot of it had seeped away, you know. So I was like, okay, well, and there was no other opportunity to possibly change that reality. But David stayed. David stayed with me.

And brought me back to Blue Velvet, and that was my second film. And shortly thereafter, Twin Peaks, and he came back to me for Twin Peaks. So a lot of gratitude there. Did you remain friends until the end? Yeah, we did. We did.

I would visit him at his place. often with Laura Dern, we'd go together and we'd sit on the back there's like a back porch area, back patio, drink coffee. Either Laura or myself or David had an assistant then Michael

would have gone to Portos which is a bakery in L.A. I've gotten a few chocolate croissant. So we would have pastries and coffee and just talk and also talk about future stuff, what was coming, what we could do. He was mainly painting

towards the end, I think. Is that right? Yes. Not prepping a movie? We were talking about something, movie or series. But the challenge was that he really couldn't leave the house easily because of the emphysema.

So it would have been remote. And we were just sort of talking about it, trying to figure out how we could make it work. And we were like, both Laura and I were like, it would work. it'll be like you're right there. You know, we can do this. But I think for him, and I don't know, this is true or not,

the joy for David was being on set and feeling that space, that sacred space in front of the camera and like, you know, working that space. So it would have been different. This episode is brought to you by MoneyBox, the award-winning saving and investing app. Money's important. Why? Well, because it means freedom.

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That's Shopify.com slash Louis L-O-U-I-S. Social media. Yes, yes. What a phenomenon it is. It's amazing. You're big. You've got 1.2 million followers on Instagram. Yes.

You know who else has 1.2 million followers? Follow us on Instagram. Louis Thoreau. Well done. Diskind. Well, you are my inspiration. Well, if I believed you, that would be a big compliment. But honestly, the podcast.

It is because I do my podcast. You've never seen one of my podcasts before. I have. I watched with you and Michael Palin. Stop it. Yeah, well, and then Michael shows up at the, what show was I on? It was the one show. The one show.

I heard about this. Isn't that crazy? What a legend. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. I was. Now that's a guest. You know, when you meet...

That was it. That was a dig. That's a guest. That's a guest. Yeah, I got it. I got it. I'm just ignoring you now. He was...

Yeah, in my growing up, he was hugely important. Monty Python was big for you? Big for me, yeah. A particular college years. Oh, my God. Yeah. You'd be probably the ideal age. Born in 59.

Yeah. Python, the kind of heyday was the 70s, really. Yeah. Yeah, it was Holy Grail. Life of Brian, Holy Grail in particular, was just, to me, just a perfect, perfect film. So you've been channeling your comedy side, your comedy style, in a way, in your performances on Instagram and TikTok. Yes. So one that went viral, I think it got 4.4 million views and 200,000 likes.

You lip sync. Yes, I've done some of those, yeah. I've just found out I'm chopped and also unc. What hits and what doesn't hit is very... I don't know, random. You must have a... I need your social media manager. Yes, I have some very good people I work with.

I had to Google what Chopped and... I think I knew what Unc was. Yeah, it's kind of... I understood, yeah. Chopped is not attractive. Yeah. I thought it might mean like ripped, but it doesn't... Yeah, right, right.

Sometimes they mislead. Shredded, yeah, but they mislead you. Shopped is not that. No, no. You've obviously... connected and yeah, the younger people are enjoying what you're doing.

Yeah. I wonder what that's about. They call you, there's some, is it, baby girl? Well, baby girl is, if you're the center of attention, yeah. Internet dad, that's the term of endearment. Do they call you internet dad? Yeah, yeah, it's sort of fun. I didn't know, kind of, it just kind of developed.

But I think part of it was, you know, I point back to my work with Lynch, you know, Twin Peaks, which is still resonates with younger generations, continues to resonate with younger generations. Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives, these shows live in a different generation. How I met your mother lives in a different generation. And so I'm part of this, you know what I mean? I'm going to cross over.

So somehow I found myself in these different dimension. I don't know how I got here, Louis. I mean, you know, nice to see you there. Thank you. And I hope to be joining you. Yes. Can we touch? Because you mentioned

like there were times when you felt Hollywood wasn't throwing its arms around you. I mean just this morning I read an interview with Jodie Foster. She said acting is a very cruel profession. Yeah. Well the profession can be the process itself is wonderful.

Yeah, of acting. I suppose she will have meant mainly she's thinking about when she was a child which is quite different. Yeah, unless you have a good help there. But the rejection, and I think there's a certain sense, you're undignified, in the sense that your life, your destiny is not fully in your own hands. Unless you're at that very apex of people, you're still having to go out saying like, hey, what about me? Do you feel that at all?

I mean, I think there is some of that for sure. But I think that we wouldn't do it if we couldn't survive that, right? It's like the need to like create. And honestly, it's a trade-off for me because when I'm working on a role, a character, I'm in control. You know, I'm working with a director, of course. The director is ultimately in control,

but I'm in control of this character of this person. So maybe I give up control for, you know, where am I going to end up? But I'm going to end up somewhere where I know that I can contribute. And I get to now I get to be in control. Now I get to do my thing. And I think with that,

And I get to be in this creative space, which is worth all of that. You know, I get to be with other actors, with a director, making something come alive. And I can't really explain to you why, but it's essential to me. I love it. I don't have to do it every day, but I do have to do it. And that feeds me. And the other stuff is you just go through it, you know. The joy is what happens, like in front of, I'm looking at your cameras here,

But the joy is what happens in front of the camera in that creative, whatever that space is that you have there. How are you with watching your old movies, old performances? I don't really see me. It's funny. It's somebody else. Really? You're not averse to it. Like Judy Dench famously won't look at herself in the film.

Everybody's different. I don't love it because I'm constantly thinking about things that I could have done. Other choices maybe. But then I have to just, you're resumptuant. yourself to the fact that what was right at the day on that moment and that time is right. And when the editors get in there and they choose the thing and the director, they choose the thing, they said they're choosing from choices that are correct, you know. And so don't judge it.

Just let it be what it's going to be. And then go do the next one, you know. And for me, the joy is the doing, not necessarily the watching of it. One of your, I mean, this, we can talk as little or as much about this as you like. one of your movies was showgirls. Yes. Which I think I saw at the time. I was living in New York.

I don't have a clear, clear memory of it. I was tempted to re-watch. That's very good. Well, okay, so let's acknowledge. Unsullied mind. It became a byword for kind of a Hollywood bomb, right? It was slated by many. Not everyone.

Right. But it's directed by Paul Verhoven. Yeah. Of Starship Troopers. And, in fact, but that was later, I guess. Basic instinct, yeah. Basic instinct. And some wonderful work in his home.

Robocop. Robocop. As well as some Dutch art films. He's a Dutch, he's a Dutch author director of the highest caliber. Yeah. Screenplayed by Joe Esther Haas, who'd also written Basic Instinct. So it became, it came with a very good pedigree. It was an 18, I guess, or 17.

So one of the things it was up against was that the audience, I think it was the widest release for a film that was age restricted in that. I think it was it was it was it NC 17 at that time I think yeah it's the NC not not appropriate force or what NC is

but non-communicative there we go it communicated something to me did and in fact Paul Verhoven has said

I did everything I wanted to with the film like it to me was exactly I achieved exactly what I wanted to achieve this is I'm looking at my notes because I'm kind of making it up

he said something along those lines that sounds That's right. I think you were not a fan. Of the film. Well, no, no, I wasn't. When I saw the film, I was, I was, I didn't know what to think. I said, this is awful.

But, but as you said before, I said the pedigree going in was, looked good. So I said, this is an opportunity to play an interesting complex, kind of light, dark character, presents himself one way, but is actually something else. And I thought, fun, you know, big movie. This is going to be great. Verhoeven, I love Verhoeven, I loved Robocop so much. I was like, sort of missed the mark. But you didn't. Is it possible you were too close, and if you saw it now, you'd be like, actually, I can see it with new eyes.

I can see it. I would be closing my eyes. Really? You're not going to. Yeah, no, I'm not letting it in. Do you know Adam McKay is a big fan? Adam McKay is a big fan. I know.

You know who I mean. Yes, I do. The writer director. Yeah. I do think it's definitely entertainment. It's definitely a film that people enjoy for whatever reason, which is great. But I think the original intention, I was like, I had signed on for something else. But in hindsight, I'm probably, you know, I'm naive that it was ever going to be anything else.

But what it turned out to be, it was a, yeah, it was a, you know, I survived that, which is how I look at it. somehow. I mean, we're laughing about it, I think. Are we laughing about it? Yeah, that's his point. I think we have to, yes. Oh, but it must have been quite painful. Yeah, it definitely, career took a hit on that.

Elizabeth, worse than anyone. You know, I got to work with the director, albeit it was not in the movie that I necessarily wanted it to be, that I admired greatly, Paul Verhoeven. Did you enjoy working with him? I did. He's tough, but I did. Tough in what way? He's just, you know, he can be.

Which people are very blunt. Yeah. I was going to say brutal. He can be brutal. But blunt is, is, is it. To the point, they've got that Calvinist. Yeah. No, there were moments when,

there were moments when I just did not want to be in his eye, in his eye sight. You know what I mean? Because I knew, you could tell. Why, what would happen? He was, when he was, when he was ornery. He was unhappy. And then he would just sort of lash out, you know. And I was like, I need to make myself scarce,

because I do not want to be, because I'm not good at confrontation. I'm not a... You're very agreeable. Shout back at her. You know, I mean, I would just say, okay, okay, and I would just remove myself from the situation. Yeah, yeah.

It's, life's too short. Because you're getting into an argument with someone who's not in that moment available. Right. It's a one-way street. I'm like, nope. A bit like being a parent to a teenager. You know what I mean?

Yeah, you have to fight your battles. Choose your battles. Choose your battles. Choose your battles. Like, don't, like, who's a bit like, who's having a talent. Pentrum at this point, is it him or me? You know what I mean?

Come back here and finish your mother. Don't you dare talk to your mother like that? Don't you dare talk to Gina Gershon like that, Paul Verhoeven? I would never. Yes, actually, yes. There was some of that. But Gina was... She could take her herself, let me tell you.

There was some... If you ever had her on the show, have her Verhoven impersonation and then talk you through like a confrontation. Really? Oh, she's amazing. Can you do a Verhoven? I don't think I kind of blocked it out, actually. Hotpedomer.

Yeah. Poffetures. I'm just saying Dutch words. That's good. More than, I don't know any Dutch words. Tulip. Is that really? Is that definitely a Dutch word?

I don't think so. Lynch would never have been like that. Lynch. Look at me, Lynch. Yes. David Lynch would never have been like that. No, he was not like that. My cousin, am I name dropping?

My cousin, Justin Theroux. Who is a lovely person. Was in fallout? He's so good in this. I've always been admired his work. A compliment to him means nothing to me. Just putting that out there. Okay, so he's just terrible.

And as opposed to you. Well, no, I feel bad. He says Thoreau. I say Theru. That's not very relevant. Oh, really? But yes. What is the proper?

Well, Theru. Theru. Because it's a Rue. It's French, like a Rue sauce or, what's another, the French, O-U-X in French. But anyway, I'm not going to make a big thing out of it. But he also. As you probably know,

are you close? Are you? Yeah, I saw him on Sunday night. Oh, beautiful. Okay. Yeah. And I was living in New York in the 90s and he's a New Yorker and so I would see him quite a bit.

And I remember when he was taken up by David and he had stories about working with David Lynch. And he's like, he's the nicest guy. And he'd talk about he'd arrive and be wearing a pair of glasses and David Lynch would say, oh, that's great. I love that. That's perfect. That's perfect. We can use that.

And he'd just pick up random things that just. and then done and incorporate them into the character. But one of the things he said was, and you can take this for what it's worth, he's like it's almost like when he was on set, it was almost like he was performing the role of a director. So for example, he'd have a megaphone. Yes.

Okay, let's go for a take and action. Yeah. Did he use a megaphone with you? Well, not during Blue Velvet and not during Twin Peaks, the first Twin Peaks, but when we came back to the return, which was in like, when was that,

2015, 16, 17, somewhere in there. Yes, he was using it. And I think part of it was just ease because he couldn't, he wouldn't have to shout. Right. So he'd be at his chair. When we did Blue Velvet, he was right next to the camera. We didn't have monitors during Blue Velvet.

And he would watch the scene right next to the camera. So he would say, you know, he'd say, Kail. All right. Now, lean in and just tweak her nose. Just like, and I would be, as a character. I mean, the camera's still rolling. I'm just going on here, just weaved the nose.

And he would laugh. And the whole point was, like, who, like, ruin a take because he would laugh. And that's what would happen. Yeah, yeah. But it was intentional because he just couldn't help himself. He so enjoyed, he so enjoyed and so loved that space, that creative space on the front of the camera,

that he wanted to be as close to it as possible, to the point where he is Gordon Cole in Twin Peaks. He wrote himself into the show because he wanted to be part of the world of Twin Peaks. Amazing. One of Justin's things was he was in Inland Empire. He was on Mulholland Drive. Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet are probably, many would consider the two, I mean, this is controversial, venturing and opinion,

but I think probably many would consider the two best. Yes. Not to say the others aren't brilliant. Maybe a little more accessible, perhaps, but in terms of just a story. But, yeah, I agree with you. Justin was saying that when he made Inland Empire, which is shot on a PD-150, a very small video camera. that David would lean in

and be telling them lines to, now you say, I'm going to the gym. Yeah. And because it's a PD-150 and it's a very wide lens, he had to get, and he was practically bumping their faces. Yeah, yeah. And they couldn't stop giggling.

It was so ridiculous. His face right now, now you say, is that Jim with a J or Jim with a G? Giving them light, like it wasn't even written down. Yeah, he's just coming out of his mind is what he wanted to see at that moment. Just some surreal. You never did anything like that.

with you, right? He had written the parts. Yeah, he'd written the parts. You know, he would talk me through stuff, like, especially as Dougie in the return, he would talk me through, you know, now stand here and just look, look over there, you know, okay? And so I would do that as Dougie. And then 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, and I'm kind of going, how long am I going to do this? You know what I mean? And I started to get kind of nervous. And then he'd be, okay, that's great, Kail, that's great. Okay, a little more, a little more. And it was just, it was an exercise, I said, in courage,

because you just, you have to believe what you're doing in front of the camera is actually interesting. And I'm like, how can this possibly be interesting? But then, of course, he puts it together and it's, you know, it's beautiful. It's wonderful. But I was like, at the time, I was like, oh boy, but he would talk me through stuff, which was really, that was fun. How's your energy? We should talk about fallout.

Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that. That's good. It's good. We just came from a day of press, but I'm pretty good. I'm holding on. I mean, it's actually an ensemble piece, really, isn't it? I mean, you're there. Yes.

I mean, there's three main characters, Walton, Gagons, Aaron Moten, and Ella Pranell. And my role is as Ella's character, Lucy, her father, Hank. And kind of my story sort of sets in motion her job. her journey and but there's you know so many threads through this and so many ways the characters connect that we that are we reveal during the course of the first season and then into the second season but it's um you know it's based on the world of a video game which is very complex very very very very well thought out well structured and they've put this story in the world of these people and it's remarkably compelling. It's amazing, actually. What strikes me, though, is

part of this movement towards adapting video games, and that can yield the extraordinary results. Like we had Bella Ramsey on the show, the star of The Last of Us. The Last of Us, yeah, which was a terrific zombie apocalypse film. This is an apocalypse film, but I'm also struck, though, that you have, when you have a fan base, that's very, very invested, that can be tough because they have opinions, which they're not shy about voicing. Yeah. Possibly you're not as exposed to that as someone like Bella was.

But to what extent were you aware of treading on terrain that meant a lot to... Oh, I think very, we were all very aware. When it was announced, and during the filming there was real hesitation and stronger. than that from the fans because they wanted to be considered and I I think we all agreed that was important hesitation about the idea of an adaptation

that it would be that the end result would not honor the game because at the end of the day the game is the most important and it was to them but to the writers as well because they all played the game as well and they recognize that if we are going to do this show then and I think they recognize two things

one is that the show the environment of the show is an incredible, of the game, I should say, is an incredibly rich one and full of all sorts of possibilities. And to set a story within this already highly complex, complicated world is perfect because there's just so many ways, places that the characters can go. So this was number one priority. They were intent on creating this world and making it as close to the fallout world as possible. And a big part of that was the tone, because the tone of it. of the show is, you've watched a little bit of it, it's a very violent, ultra-violent, and yet at the same time, darkly funny.

And then they're running music, the music cues, again, throw it into another different space. So it's just very discombobulating, but ultimately really entertaining and funny. But I feel like the fan base, when it came out, I think by and large, for the most part, was like, oh, my God, this is great. They put their stamp of approval on it. Not everyone, I'm sure, but the majority of people were excited about the show. And the season two is even furthered at. I mean, they've gone very deep, and it's all about the lore of the game.

That's the most important. And it's huge. I mean, I'm not just blowing smoke, as they say. It's been a huge hit in America, hasn't it? Millions and millions. Yeah, around the world, actually. We're on a world tour, so our group is here in the UK now. We're going to go to Tokyo or some splenger.

group is going to Rio tonight, and they were also in Sydney. And so Amazon is very much behind it, and it's exciting. You're enjoying it? I very much so. Such a pleasure to have you, Kyle. Louis, thank you. You're welcome any time. Keep your hands off my wife. Do my best. She's a beautiful woman. I'm sure she is. She's hard to resist. Does that sound weird? We're getting into Lynch territory again. Yes. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. Look, let's deal with the elephant in the room first, which is the Nancy factor. Hands off, what did I say? Like, try and keep your hands off my wife?

And he gave the perfect answer, which was, I'll try. If he'd said, like, that shouldn't be a problem. That would be like an insult. If he'd said, of course, that would have been okay, but I'll try. is perfect because it suggests that Nancy's charms are so evident that it would be difficult for him to resist them. Perfect. Miss Manners could not have done any better. Nancy, we spent a long time Nancy and I did like trying to dig out her diaries.

It was one of those cases we went into the loft and there were a lot of boxes. It's like, it's not in this one. It's not in this one. We found them. Relax. We found them. I'm not going to, there are several pages. I love car.

Carl McLaughlin, capital's bolded. She was 15 when she wrote this. Yes, yet another of my distant crushes. How many were there? I'm not going to read much of this. Nancy's freaking out at this point. Who is Carl McLaughlin, you might say? This was around the time of Twin Peaks,

so it was Peak McLaughlin Mania. I reply only the most handsome, witty, kind, brackets, question mark, gentle exclamation mark question mark being in the world it raises questions about Nancy's not what I would say like Nancy's judgment of men what 15 year old Nancy was looking for someone nice quirky witty I said witty kind but look what we're all thinking is like where does louis fit in that iteration right I'm happy with all of that very sweet and I guess the main thing is I'm glad we could put that to bed

and what a charming guy like you can he still have whatever that energy is and you know look if I could make it about the work that's what Kyle brings is this sort of sense of almost supernatural suave te and you know in the sense of like it sort of transcends it's almost surreal quality and I didn't express it very well in the chat

but there's a sense in which there's a metanus to some of his acting like he seems to be commenting on the acting process. He mentioned that it was a Pauline Kale review in the New Yorker that turned around the fortunes of Blue Velvet. And I dug out the review and

she sings his praises. Blue Velvet is a comedy, she wrote. Yet it puts us, or at least some of us, in an erotic trance. The movie keeps ribbing the clean-cut Jeffrey Carl McLaughlin, yet we're caught up in his imagination. It was nice to be able to bring out, it's not even an impression, but my attempt to do Frank, as played by Dennis Hopper, Kyle started doing the photographer from Apocalypse now.

He's a, I'm a little man, I'm a little, he's a great man. It's worth finding, we'll link to that on YouTube. You know, the central, if is the central two letters of life, man. I think any time In Frank he's doing He's like I don't want to shut up Like where he's kind of interacting with himself

And it made me think of like Gollum Schmee He wants to hurt us Marley doesn't like Master He wants to hear that No master's kind Master

Master's nice Like where he's in a dialogue That's an amazing I think I did that pretty well That was good says Millie We'll stop there where someone's in, one of my favorite examples of that is in the film M with Fritz Lang. Have you ever seen that?

Fritz Lang is the director and Peter Lorry plays a child murderer and he talks about the impulse to murder children. And it's in German, I think, which I don't even speak German. Nevertheless, he goes, Mitz, Wills, Wyncht, Mest, Wills, Wyncht. He's in conflict. He mustn't do it, but he has to do it. Millie's not even paying attention. Not as good. And I had a friend who talked about when we lived in Brooklyn,

he said there was a guy who used to jog around Prospect Park. I don't know why I think he was an ex-military guy. And he said it was like he was a local character. And people would say, as he jogged past, you'd hear him going like, I don't want to go on. I've had enough. Shut up, you little puke. Keep going.

I don't want to. I'm tired. Shut if you keep going, you little puk. And it's that thing of, like, that's another great, right? Example. Do I ever do that? No, not really. Sometimes when I'm doing a Joe Hicks, I would be going like, um, like that.

Do you know what I mean? It's sort of horrible. When you're really tired and you want to stop, you're doing like 20, whatever, burpees. You're like, ha, ha, ha. But I don't think I would go like, shut up. Shut up and keep going. I wouldn't, would I do, in an American accent, it makes more sense anyway.

Come on, Louis. You can do it, Louis. No, it doesn't work. I think there were some talking points to do with Paul Verhoeven. Kudos to Kyle for being candid about the issues that came up. It sounded like it was a difficult experience. He said, I survived that. meaning showgirls, which is how I look at it. Somehow, definitely my career took a hit.

If I was a serious podcaster, I would have actually re-watched showgirls. I only remember one thing from it. It's a Joe Hesterhard's script, and there's a bit in it where one of them, maybe Kyle is assessing Elizabeth Berkley's prospects. Something like her stagecraft is all over the place, and her legs have no discipline and frankly her movement is terrible but she's got it it's that kind of reversal thing where you see what they did there

it's like my podcasting he's rambling and he can't remember his questions and he does terrible impressions but he's got it that's it for today please do join me next week for another episode for now here are the credits the producer was Millie Chew

The researcher was Mark Maughan. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle. for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business

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