The Louis Theroux Podcast - S7 EP8: Yorgos Lanthimos discusses working with Emma Stone, suffering for his art, and directing a Bourne movie

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

In this special bonus episode, Louis sits down with Yorgos Lanthimos, the acclaimed director of ‘Bugonia’, 'The Favourite’ and ‘Poor Things’. Yorgos tells Louis about working with Emma Stone, suffering for his art, and debating whether or not to direct a Bourne movie.   Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:     Bugonia (2025)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/bugonia/umc.cmc.405pbn0ajtqwj3ycjapyd0i9x?action=play     Dogtooth (2009)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1379182/     Pulp Fiction (1994)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH18ZHdrktM     Blue Velvet (1986)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090756/     Eraserhead (1977)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/     Bourne Franchise   https://www.imdb.com/list/ls089971582/     Dude, Where’s My Car? (2000)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242423/     The Lives of Others (2006)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/     The Tourist (2010)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/the-tourist/umc.cmc.5ka0eofzuve9xw2qb7rcpwbck?action=play    Poor Things (2023)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/poor-things/umc.cmc.3mshuc064vnbpvdq7rl6d3lpf?action=play     Kinds of Kindness (2024)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt22408160/     Midsommar (2019)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/midsommar/umc.cmc.3btmmnmdi8cci3gb2qupxli8o?action=play     Hereditary (2018)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7784604/     Eddington (2025)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/eddington/umc.cmc.16hrancuhb81jh76au2988hqv?action=play     Beau Is Afraid (2023)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13521006/     Save the Green Planet! (2003)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0354668/     TV Show: ‘Succession’ (2018 –2023) - HBO  https://tv.apple.com/gb/show/succession/umc.cmc.3trf3c8kzd8m4w72c9q8dwjqe     Article: Tarantino on Paul Dano  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/dec/11/hollywood-honest-quentin-tarantino-paul-dano     There Will Be Blood (2007)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/there-will-be-blood/umc.cmc.45s5e33zqu277lcdym5taili?action=play     Prisoners (2013)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392214/     Film Franchise: Marvel Cinematic Universe (2008 – present)  https://www.imdb.com/list/ls031310794/     A Minecraft Movie (2025)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/a-minecraft-movie/umc.cmc.1od4a1ayyjqn43uz8fel7ei5e?action=play     Superman (2025)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5950044/     The Lego Batman Movie (2017)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4116284/     Spider-Man (2002)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0145487/     The Mastermind (2025)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/the-mastermind/umc.cmc.3kbnmjk6m6h0hy67h6w6kj6j2?action=play     Anora (2024)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt28607951/     Daddy Longlegs (2009)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1426362/     Longlegs (2024)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt23468450/     Uncut Gems (2019)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5727208/     Good Time (2017)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/good-time/umc.cmc.7950weot61ytepv84enkastys?action=play     Marty Supreme (2025)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32916440/     The Smashing Machine (2025)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/the-smashing-machine/umc.cmc.71wzerdj91fo8ep11rcbu3tei?action=play     Exhibition: Yorgos Lanthimos: Photographs (2026)  https://www.onassis.org/whats-on/yorgos-lanthimos-photographs     Athens, Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens Credits  Producer: Millie Chu   Researcher: Artemis Irvine Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk    Open a Moneybox Cash ISA at https://moneybox.onelink.me/Cqlx/y3xncge  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello there, welcome to a bonus. Wow, that was loud. Instormant of the Louis Theroux podcast. Lucky you. For this special bonus episode, I'm delighted to be joined, but I won't keep doing that, by a BAFTA and Golden Globe winning visionary filmmaker who goes by the name of Yorgas Lentemos. Why? Because that's his name. Over the past 15 years, Yorgos has become one of the most distinctive voices in modern cinema with films like The Acclaimed and Garlanded Poor Things. That had Emma Stone in it.

It was like a surrealist steampunk reimagining of the Frankenstein myth with a woman as the monster. And the favourite with Rachel Weiss and Olivia Coleman. That was sort of about Queen Anne, wasn't it? She raced lobsters in her hall. And a lot of it was filmed with a fish-eye lens. He's got a very amazing, very amazing. Listen to my language.

I should be a film critic. He's got an amazing eye. He uses funny lenses. I already sound like a moron. If Yorgos is listening to this. And that's just a small sampling of Yorgos's erver. There is also Dogtooth, which was the first of Yorgos' films

to put his name on the map, and the first one I saw. Darkly comic, you might say, about the imprisonment of a family by their father in their house. We talk about that quite a bit. The Killing of the Sacred Deer, starring LTP,

alumnus Barry Keogan, the lobster, and many more. Yorgos has a coterie of frequent collaborators, including Colin Farrell, Olivia Coleman, Willem Defoe, friend of the pod, and Emma Stone, future friend of the pod. She'd be a great guest, who he worked with most recently in his film, Borgonia, the BAFTA nominated and Oscar nominated. It tells the story of two conspiracy theorists who kidnap a CEO, kind of a tech boss. I can't say bro because it's a woman, played by Emma Stone, after they become convinced she's a space alien.

I enjoyed it very much, and it resonated with themes I'm interested in to do with things like conspiracy theories, bizarre or paranoid thinking, but also the emotional resonances of toxic relationships, because it's partly about that. We recorded this conversation in December last year while Yorgos was in town promoting Bagonia.

A quick warning, this conversation contains strong language and adult themes. All that and much else besides coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. We do a lot of our shopping these days online. I've often thought in another life I could have had a blossoming online shop on Shopify. What would I sell? Maybe my chart-topping books, some TLTP bingo cards for the Die Hard podcast fans.

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L-O-U-I-S. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it. No, I'm very happy to. I'm a, you know, as I said, I'm a huge fan. Wow. And I actually don't know what I'm doing here because I'm probably the least known person you've ever interviewed for this. Well, you're on Instagram and I was surprised to see how few followers you have.

But you're not posting a lot of personal content. No, because I just did a proper account because there was an account that everybody thought it was me and it wasn't. Really? And I just decided like, let's just do a proper account. So I just started it like a couple of weeks ago. Listen, I'm a big fan as well. I mean, not as well. I am a big fan.

I think we'll cut the bit out where you say you're a fan. No, you never do. I'm listening to your broadcast. Maybe we won't then. And actually, I've seen almost all your films. You've got one out at the moment called Bagonia. Indeed. Congrats, it's Brill. It's really good.

Thank you. Obviously, there's a tone that infuses your work. It's been characterized lots of different ways. All of them end up being somehow reductive. Sometimes it's called dark, absurdist, bleak, maybe, harrowing, torturous. Sometimes they're characterized as being films that demand, well, that they're punishing in some way. Speaking of which, like, I don't see them that way.

Have you said hilarious yet? Hilarious? Have you? I didn't say that one. David Lynch called Dog Tooth a fantastic comedy. See, he gets it. He gets it. So the one I watched first was Dog Tooth.

I watched in 2009. Without getting too deep into Spoilerland, I'm sure people have... A lot of people... The people that have watched that film... The ones who haven't seen have stopped listening already. Yeah, exactly. It's that guy.

It's a dad and his wife who've kept his three kids more or less locked away behind closed doors, deceiving them into believing that life on the outside of their remote house is dangerous. And in fact, maybe there isn't much life out there, but either way,

they're now in their mid-20s and they've never really left the family, domicile. Yeah. The opening, I rewatched it last night. Oh. The opening scene is he's listening to recording from their dad.

Do you remember this? Yeah. You wrote it and directed. Actually, I remember it because we just did a new restoration, like a new digital transfer of the print, of the negative. And I kind of rewatched it. What's the opening scene?

The opening scene is like a montage, actually. It's like a, there's like a close-up of the mother press. playing play on the tape machine and there's like a list of words and their meaning. Yes. So one of the words is C. C. In Greek, Thalassos.

Thalasa, yeah. And they define it as armchair? Yes. And there's a couple other words, like excursion. Yeah. It's defined as. I don't remember. Toaster or something like that.

Yes. They're all misdef, wrong definitions. And you realize this is a world where, the grown-up children are having to be more or less reprogrammed with the wrong meaning of words so they don't ask too many questions. Yeah. So because, you know, the parents think that it might have slipped a couple of times, a word or something, and now they have to give it a new meaning for the children so they don't know what excursion is

because they'll be asking for one, so they don't want them to leave the house. So it was like a way of, you know, introducing the rules of, you know, this, microcosm. It was the same way, I don't know if you remember, the airplanes because it is... They're under a flight path. So how do they explain that this plane's going over there? How do they explain that? And I went like, why don't they throw them little planes? Because they see them as a little up in the sky and then they'll just go, oh, a plane fell from the sky and then they have it as a toy. So it was just like trying to solve those problems that those parents would have with Fthymis that we wrote the script together.

And, you know. Fymeus Filippu. Yes. That I've written many films with and he's a very good friend. I think the idea just started from myself and Fethim is like making observation about, especially about Greek society and how families are structured. And, you know, I think there might still be. I think younger generations are a little bit different.

But like children would stay with their parents and see their, they were very old. And it was, you know, kind of fascinating for us. In Greek culture. Probably Mediterranean as well. If I be so bold to like generalize a little bit. I wonder if I'm going to make it, I'm going to go on out on a limb and, this is risky.

Boys would be cooked for by their moms. Yes. Until they married and then their wives would cook for them. Exactly. That's the thing. Yeah. Another fix is sometimes they eat fish and you're like, How are they explaining the fish?

And then you see the dad arrive with fish in a plastic bag and he puts them in the family swimming pool. Yeah. And then goes out wearing scuba gear with a dart gun. A hot... Not a dark gun, like a harpoon. No, like it's called... Sub-aquin.

I don't know what you. Spear a gun. Spear a gun. That's it. You're not a fisherman, are you? No. And so has to go through the charade of... He's like, oh, some fish have appeared in the pool.

Presumably they think they've spontaneously generated. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it raises something that's true for a lot of your films. You know, in a way that was a, that was the film that broke through for you, although it wasn't your first film. But, well, two things, I suppose.

One is the how becomes more interesting or in some way you'd work more with the idea of how is this happening rather than why is it happening. I think you're not that interested in the motivation. Correct me if I'm wrong. No. Why is the dad doing it? Yeah. Why is the wife going along with it? Yeah, I think that, like, those are things that are, some of them easily deduced from what's going on.

And I find it more engaging to ask from the viewer to do that work instead of, like, serving everything on a plate. I enjoy that more, you know, when I watch something or listen to something or read something. So, yeah, it's more about the behavior and how it affects people and how, you know, we can. investigate the things that we consider as given, if they were slightly different, what would that mean? And just engage in that kind of conversation about, you know, how we've structured society, relationships in the world, testing it in ways. And, you know, creating this situation that tests that instead of saying, oh, you know, this is what families do and this is how children react and there you go. I mean, you knew that already.

It's testing something I mean I don't want it to make it sound like you're performing an experiment I guess there's two things I've fallen in that trap to say that a few times Yeah I don't think that's what it is I'm just trying to explain you know that we're building these rules Which is like an experiment You often work with a closed precinct

But not always but in which something's a little off kilter I mean what strikes me is that the the audience is always a little bit in an intriguing way left out. So, for example, it's 55 minutes in of dog tooth that the word dog tooth is used. And basically you get a clear... So more than halfway through the film, you get a clear understanding that the world outside is dangerous.

Until then, you're like, why don't they just leave? And then you get little breadcrumbs. I don't think you ever fully arrive, which, again, I think is one of the reasons I engage with these films is because they don't feel fully resolved. It's not like you're like, oh, now it all makes perfect sense. Yeah, no. You have to make sense for it yourself.

Like, if you rewatched the ending now, it's very much that. And I remember it was the first time that I talked to people after watching the film and I realized that it really depends a lot on the person that watches the film to make up a lot of stuff and the way that my films kind of demand that but I remember even people saying

well we're going to spoil it but that's fine like when you know that the daughter that escapes the oldest daughter that escapes ends up knocking out her own canine dog tooth in order to fulfill

by the way dog tooth is a made up word right it doesn't really exist that's not what you're In English, we don't call it your canine. Correct. In English, we don't call it your dog tooth. I don't think. No, no, I don't think so either.

I think I like that, that the English title would be a made-up word. It kind of made sense with the film. But people have told me, like, she's going to come out of the trunk, right? Because he was holding... At the end, she knocks her tooth out. She finally leaves. She's allowed to, because her tooth's come out, in theory. As long as she gets in the back of the car, he drives off, they can't find her.

He's outside his place of work. She's in the trunk. and there's like a 10 second shot of the trunk and she's in there but nothing's happening. Yeah, but people have told me, but it's fine, she's going to get out because she was holding a hammer or a screw driver. And she wasn't.

No. But people that really wanted her to escape saw that. Yeah. Which is like one of the revelations about like how people watch films and how they project their own. People really want answers. You know, it reminds me a bit. I think it's in Pulp Fiction where there's a car

and it's never revealed what's in the boot of the car. Oh, yeah, they open and there's like a glow or something. And there's endless threads on the internet about, oh, what's in there? It's actually someone's soul or some stolen gold. And you just sort of think like, no, it's never, we don't need to know because we don't know. Yeah, it's a narrative device of some sort of.

I go, yeah. Because in a related sense, I can't find my quote, but it was a New York Times quote where it was basically saying, and it seemed to be implied almost as a criticism. Like, it was, it's like, is this documenting depravity or is it just being depravity? Like, it's not clear whether he's interested

in documenting it or interested in provoking by creating it. Well, that might be true, but I don't think that's a criticism. It's too intellectual for me. Oh, here we go. A.O. Scott in the New York Times says, at times it seems as much an exercise in perversity as an examination of it. Well, that's criticism. I think I know what you mean, but I don't think that's a problem.

I can maybe. I'm with you, yeah. You know what I mean? It's a bit like, well, I'm giving you something that's making you uncomfortable. I'm trying to make you uncomfortable. Yeah, it's like the thing that I was, initially, early on, like, I felt weird listening to that I'm being provocative. And then I realized it's a good thing. Yeah.

Like, you need to be provocating. Like, how else are people going to be moved out of their seats? Yeah. Literally and metaphorically, like, move their minds a little bit to different directions or see things from a different perspective. if you don't provoke them. So I take it as a positive now. I would go further and say if there's some people who actively dislike one's work,

I won't make it about you, that's perhaps not a bad thing. Yeah, and I understood early on that that would be weird. And that's why I had a weird reaction with the success of dog tooth in the beginning because I felt that the stuff that I make is not for everyone and that's fine and that there will be people that will hate it

and people that will love it and I understood that that's the kind of things I'm interested in. Not purposefully making people hate the work but like it's just the natural outcome of this kind of work that people are different and also especially if we

talk about you know around the world different cultures different you know different upbringing experiences and all that, like, how can something that's provocative and interesting and different and relatively original be accepted and liked by everyone? Like, that wouldn't be right. So you don't want that, really. No. So I made peace with that early on. What I was going to say is, it was 2009, it was a huge hit. Well. Well, it was a hit. Well, it did really well.

I mean, it cost what, next to nothing? Yeah, I mean, those, all the Greek films that we made, we kind of did it with, you know, five, ten friends, and, you know, we paid for the necessary stuff. And then everybody offered to work for free mostly or with, like, very little money. It was like, what, 250,000 years? Yeah, like something like that.

That's nothing. You couldn't even make a documentary for that. Well, you could, but it would be. well not these days I guess but yeah it was nothing it's just like the love of people that you know wanted to make films and especially at that time in Greece

there weren't that many films being made like there was no industry I mean there still isn't it has improved but there wasn't the notion of becoming a filmmaker in Greece when I was growing up it was like a non-existent thing and that's why I started by doing commercials and

saying like at least I'll be doing something that I is similar to what I like but I'll be able to earn a living and yeah at some point we just decided why don't we just go and make it like that with no money. You've gone to film school, right?

Kind of. In Athens? In Athens there's a film school. Why is there no film industry? There's like a very small private film school. Now there's one at the university as well but yeah, there wasn't such a structure.

Like, when I was growing up, there were like two or three, you know, older generation filmmakers. You might have heard of Theo Angeloopoulos, for example, was the most well-known one. And it was them that they were making films and, you know, they were using up all the resources of the Greek film center. So there was like no chance that a young filmmaker would like be able to be included in that. So there was a boom in our.

advertising in Greece, like just before the crisis, actually, if you can make the connection. So, like, a lot of money being spent on commercials and, you know, like... For people who don't remember, what year was it? Was it 2009? It was 2009. It was this massive... People said it was because of the Olympics. Do you remember that? That, I think, might have played... They said they spent too much money on the Olympics. Yeah, I think they were, like, generally spending too much money.

It was the bubble of... What year was the Olympics? 2008? 2004. 2004. The other one was they said Greek people don't pay taxes. They said it's normal in Greece to not pay your taxes. There's a lot of that.

Some of that is partly true, but I think there was that bubble of, you know, banks, loans for mortgages and things like that that kind of exploded. It was the era of mobile phones and all these companies coming in and like spending, you know, millions. and millions and, you know, doing commercials and people buying stuff and getting houses and mortgages and there was like a whole thing going on. And I think that, you know, a lot of these things led to the crisis while there and in other places around the world. But it was, yeah, felt quite hard in Greece. Yeah. But luckily by then you were a soaring into your next

stage of your career. I moved over here. And you moved over here. It was striking that you were doing two or three commercials a week for nearly 10 years. Is that possible? No, I mean, I probably exaggerate. But for a number of years. But like for a number of years I was doing like a commercial a week at least. But what I took from that was it's almost like the Malcolm Gladwell thing of 10,000 hours

that you put so much time into making these, in effect, short films that you mastered your craft in some way. Yeah, the technical aspect of it. I think that's, that was very helpful for us to decide that we didn't need that much in order to go and make a film if we wanted, like if we gathered like these 10 people that just wanted to make a film, you know, we didn't need lights, we didn't need makeup, we didn't need anything, you know, we would borrow stuff and we would shoot in locations that they gave us for free. And, you know, we could just make a film like that instead of not making anything at all and just being there. and going like, oh, it would be so nice to make a film one day, you know, kind of thing. So that's how we made the three first films in Greece. And then, yeah, after Dog Tooth's relative success, I decided to move over here. Because at some point, after making three films this way, I just felt that I, if I was to continue making films, I needed to be able to make some choices instead of like just boring stuff and

filming in the house that was free instead of the freedom of a bit more money and more... A little bit more control over aspects of the filmmaking. But dialing back, so you grew up and you've talked about you were not a massive sinist, you were quite sporty in fact, your dad had been a basketball

player, professional nationally known in Greece. I can't remember you gave a few examples, like maybe you were watching Flash Dance, was it, were you watching Back to the Future, just mainstream? up like, yeah, watching mainstream films, Indiana Jones. And then you had a sort of Damascene moment when you watched, was it a Tarkovsky film? Probably, because I went to film school again, like thinking, you know, I kind of like these films.

I'm never going to make a spillback film or anything, but like I, you know, I can learn the craft and do commercials and, you know, do something like this. That's how I went to film school. And then all of a sudden, you know, I discovered, you know, Tarkovsky and Breson and. and Casavetes and, you know, those filmmakers, Buneuelle, and that I had no idea about. And this other world opened for me. So it was relatively late. I mean, I was like 19 or whatever.

And then when you were working in commercials all those years, were you continuing to educate yourself in film and increasingly thinking, wow, this may be something for me? Yeah. I used to watch a lot of films and read a lot of. a lot of the stuff that I learned and technically, like I was getting magazines from, like, American cinematographer, for example, that's, like, very technical about cinematography

and all the stuff that we weren't really learning in film school. I was just, you know, reading about it, and then I would be experimenting while we're making commercials. And I go, like, we should do this process with the film. And they were going, like, how are you crazy? We can't do this. We should, you know, do bleach by past. or whatever, and the labs would be, like, furious with this guy that wanted to do all those

things. And so, yeah, I had, like, a real thirst for it, but I didn't really think that I was going to actually make a film. It was just, like, getting to learn about these things. And then, of course, watching films and contemporary films, you know, at the time, apart from the old ones that I discovered in film school. Which ones were you aware? Because it feels like Lars von Trio was doing interesting things.

at the time or... Yeah, I guess it was maybe... Michael Hanukkah was... Of course, yeah, Michael Hanneke and maybe a pizza pong where is it a cool, the Thai filmmaker. Oh, you know, it got me. Yeah, Timing Young, for example. That's a filmmaker?

Yes. Oh, Jesus. You're not writing these things down, but like we're recording this, so that's fine. I'll be writing them down. Who, were those? Are those people you were watching at that time? So you were dipping into Asians cinema?

Well, I mean, to be honest, like my memory is so bad. But that was gradual, I guess. Yeah. You know, getting into more obscure, more experimental. Sometimes they call them I don't really like that. No. Characterization. They call them non-narrative.

I don't like that either. What's an example of a non-narrative? I don't know. They can say like a lynch film is non-narrative. Some are and some aren't. Blue Velvet's narrative. Yeah, but like even... Even Eraser Heads narrative.

But does narrative need to be always linear? No. That's why I don't love the... Yeah. Jean-Luc Goddard said... Oh, Jean-Luc Goda, of course. Said a film needs to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. But not in that order.

Oh, finish each other sentences now. Okay. When Dogtooth got the reaction that it did, I think it was nominated for an Oscar. It was, yeah. Commiserations on failing to win. Yes, thank you. It was a win that we even got nominated.

Exactly. It's an honour to be nominated. I'm so sorry you lost your Oscar. I've lost many since then. Have you? Have you? Have you? You must have won a couple.

No. Well, my people have won, like actors. Emma Stone won one? Yes, two. Two. Well, she has won two, not with me involved in the film. Right. She's won one.

So that's your. Oliver Coleman, one one. With you? Yeah, with me. Those are yours. Yeah. I'll claim those. You should get joint custody.

Well, I got the cards. Emma got the Oscar. I got the card that was saying like Emma's own winner. So she gave me the card. That's almost patronizing. That's almost a little bit insulting. You've talked about that moment of arrival. You know, in Hollywood, a bit like a vampire, feeds on fresh blood, right?

And it's like, oh my God, there's a new guy. Have you seen Dogtooth? Yeah, it's awesome. Let's get him in for a meeting. That's my bit. That's a good impression, yeah. Hey, Yorgos, awesome to meet you, big, big fan. You've talked about not enjoying that, surprisingly.

You said I had a weird negative reaction to all the noise around Dogtooth. Actors, meetings in L.A., I didn't know what I was doing there. this is you. I felt it was fake in a way. Well, I mean, a lot of it was fake. Like, those meetings are extremely superficial most of the times. And also, you're already in a position to make movies you want to make, right? So in a way, it's like, what are they going to do, slot you into a franchise? We got an exciting project for you, Star Trek 7. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't really at the time, like, after having made Dogtooth and being nominated for an Oscar,

it was like there was an interest in what it was that I wanted to do next. And I did entertain the idea, like going back to my roots as a teenager and go like, should I make a Bourne movie? Like, for example, would that be fun? Literally? Literally, yeah. Really? But like only for a little bit.

Not really after seeing how the whole thing worked. Did you do a meeting for Bourne? I don't think I did a specific one. But I think like my agents were asking like what you know what it is that you want to do and I said like I'm a make a boring film they were like popular. A friend of mine who was very is and was a very talented documentary maker and he made a string of you know successful documentaries and Hollywood came calling and they offered him dude where's my car too and what happened he passed oh but it's funny how you like you're going to a

different table in the casino. Yeah. How much are these chips worth? I think there is something interesting in that if you have the guts to do it, you know? Yes. Like if you go like, you know what, I'll try this. Yeah, but then do you remember when the guy who made the lives of others? I can't remember his name.

That terrific German film went to Hollywood and do you remember what he made? Yeah, but that's not the same thing. Go on. He made the tourist for people who were interested in the punchline. I don't think that the lives of others was in a way. such a different film, not to the tourists, just don't get me wrong, but like I don't think...

It was Chiming Young doing the tourist, is what I'm saying. Like his film was like, you know, a successful, popular film that, yeah, was, as they say, narrative. And, you know, I think it ticked a lot of the boxes. But even that, yeah. But I do make it, I do love that film.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But and obviously when he made the tourists He didn't have any control over it The studios had and that's what I realized I mean we're saying it like it's terrible But it might be it didn't do very well No but the people themselves that may just kind of say it's terrible

So But I think that's what I realized When I flirted with the idea that you actually don't have any control Like they want to kind of have you there as the new thing but and say, oh, this guy is doing this, but like they want to actually do it. So I realized it's not for me and I just want to keep making the films that I want to make and have, you know, as much control as I can, which I've, I'm very lucky to have achieved. Like, I haven't made any film that I didn't have, you know, total creative freedom.

even that's hard to bear. I mean, people that, you know, do difficult jobs, hear that and say, like, oh, really? I was going to say making films is difficult, but... Try taking out someone's appendix. Exactly. Yeah. What would be a better example?

Try... No, but that's, like, really hard. Like, be, you know, like someone who cleans people's houses. I think that's brutal. And we're saying, oh, we're making films. It's so difficult. And but it kind of, it's weird that it is. And it does affect us like deeply and profoundly.

And it's the narrative that we built for ourselves and, you know, what we consider important and all that. But anyway, I, you know, it's hard for me because I've chosen to do this. And, you know, this is all I have. And it's, it's life itself. in a way. So, although it might seem ridiculous to someone on the outside, I still do, you know, suffer making films, but not in a real, you know, not in the real world, though. Of course, it's not, it doesn't, that doesn't surprise me. It's not, and it's obviously not suffering in a conventional physical sense. It's a kind of feeling of responsibility. And you've been

given an opportunity and not many people are in your position and you don't want to fuck it up. Yeah. And you don't really have many people. you can blame because to a great extent you're a captain of your own destiny. No, no, and I've chosen that. Like I said, I have complete creative freedom. So, yeah, it's all my fault. If it's going south. Yeah, it's just me.

It's my inability to do whatever I needed to do. What was your, because you've talked about it in the past about how stressful you find. How in some respects, it's quite an unhappy. Emma Stone said he's really miserable while we're filming. You said, yeah, it's insane. immense. Then the question was, and it hasn't gone away over time, Stone, it's gotten worse. Lantamos, you try to rationalize it. Why are you so upset? This is a movie. Of course, when you compare it with other things that are happening in the world, it's ridiculous, but for you in that

moment, it's everything. It's gotten worse. Was Borgonia the most stressful, would you say? I think so, but that might have to do something with the fact that I kind of made three films back to back without taking a break in between. You did poor things, kinds of kindness and begonia. You're very productive. Yeah. And not only that, they're all outstanding. Thank you.

I think so. Yeah. My opinion means nothing. Well, it means something to me. Well, I mean, last now that you didn't know, most of the filmmakers that I mentioned. That's true. You might just be ripping them off. I'd see those and be like, he's just taking it all from, I was going to, if I say

make up a name, it'll sound like I'm being racist, so I won't do that. Borgonia, it's about two guys, a guy and his cousin. The guy's played by Jesse Plemens, a tremendous actor who you've been working with a lot. And his brother, played by a neurodivergent cousin. What did I say? Brother. But you said a cousin, I think, in the beginning. And his cousin, but they've got a brotherly relationship. They do. They kidnap, this isn't a spoiler, I don't think. The character played by Emma Stone. It's very early on. And she's a girl boss.

I know that's a weird term, but that's sort of how it feels like she's got Cheryl Sandberg, the Facebook executive energy. She's like an Uber Munch or Silicon Valley tech sort. In fact, she works in a pharmaceutical business. And she's almost oddly composed, even the act of being abducted. Like a lot of Yorgos-Lanthermost films,

a lot of times you're second-guessing the reactions. No one's behaving exactly as you think they might. And so you're a little off-balance. which partly prevents them from feeling like victim narratives. It would be easy to make trauma porn with these kinds of plot setups. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, look, that person's being horrific to that person and when are they going to escape?

It's much more finely grained than that. She seems at times more in control than he does. Would you agree with everything I've just said? Everything. It feels like I'm a lawyer now. Nevertheless, on the night in question, one of the things in my head was like, as someone who's made documentaries about conspiracy theory, so the Jesse Plemman's character has gone deep into the internet and he believes various conspiracy theories, he thinks Emma Stone is an alien. He does. And so I'm watching thinking, this relates to things I've been curious about.

So the first question I have, how interested are you in real versions of the things that take place in your films? Like, do you research that? I know you didn't write Borgonia, but nevertheless. I research if I think there's benefit to it. On this one, for example, I felt that, well, first of all, the screenplay that Will Tracy wrote was, you know, already brilliant. It was a fully developed piece of work. Yeah, because Ariaster developed it with Lars Knutzen, their company.

And they... Ariester, who directed midsummer and hereditary. Okay. Is that right? Yes. You're a big... I'm just helping the people. We've got people... It's not just you and me here.

And Edicton, the latest one. Boy's Afraid. Bowies Afraid with Joaquin Phoenix. Yes, Joaquin Phoenix. Great films. So they thought that I might be interested in it. Why didn't Ariasta want to direct it? I know.

I don't really know. I think he just was interested in other things. Someone said that who wishes he directed it now. Yeah. Is that true? Maybe I said that as a joke. I definitely have said that to him. Have you?

And does he agree? He gets a joke. Right. I don't know if it's true. There's probably some truth to it. But because he was interested in it from the beginning because he really loved the original film. I hadn't watched it. Save the Green Planet.

Yeah. It's a Korean film. Korean film. I didn't know of the film. So he was a fan. So that's how he got involved. So maybe he thought that as a fan, he didn't want to, you know, make that film. But he thought it was a good idea.

the premise of it and the concept of it, like to be transported to modern-day America. So they thought I might be interested. And I was, and I worked with Will Tracy a little bit on the script to just make it more, you know, my own. Will Tracy, you had been a writer on Succession. He's been a writer in Succession, yeah. A great writer. So there was so much already there.

And I kind of didn't want to go like, oh, but there's this thing. in real life and should we make it more like this? And like I felt reading it that it was like really strong and I just concentrated on other stuff that you know I knew that I would do differently instead of like researching what the reality around it is. So when you say you concentrate on the things

that you can bring to the project, what is that? What is that? I don't know exactly. It's very, it's very, instinctive like I there were like great characters great dialogue great premise maybe structurally I do things differently or you know even casting Aden who's autistic like it wasn't written as an autistic person but I felt that it should be in a way and it would make more sense the whole thing would make more sense

and it would be richer. And, you know, parts of the comedy of it or, you know, like his background with his mother and those kind of like dream or flashback sequences instead of like being expositional about it and just, you know, things here and there, yeah, that I do differently. But again, it was a great script from the beginning just to be fair. This episode is brought to you by Moneybox, the award-winning saving and investing app. Money is important. Why? Well, because it means freedom, freedom to enjoy your life. We're now in a new tax year, and as long as you're in the UK and over 18, you have a brand new ISA allowance.

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Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash louis. That's Shopify.com. Do you read your reviews? No. Don't you? No. I might read some of the bad ones.

Because they do send the reviews and I see the email and I go like very quickly down the links. And if I say something like really bad, I might click on it and see. Yeah. It's just interest me to see, you know, well, first of all, if there's some something, truthful in it and then may be I learn something. And then, you know, like, where is it coming from? I'm interested to see. And a lot of the times it's just like people just wanted a different film.

But it's like they didn't make it. So they're getting this one. But they wanted it to be different. It's not about, you know, how good it is or it's about it. should have been another way. So I find that interesting to read. Because, you know, reviews that praise the work, I don't have much to gain from. And it makes me feel uncomfortable. I get that. I mean, it can confirm you in things like, oh, it's working. I'm not alone. Yeah, but you get a sense of that anyway. Like, because films are, especially, you know, the films have been made.

making the last few years, like they're widely released. You get a sense of whether it's working or not. And, you know, talking to other people, like, and if you start promoting the film, and then if you get into that whole awards kind of season thing, you know, you speak to other people, you get a sense of, you know, how the film is doing. You don't have to, like, read someone's specific view of what the film is and what it means to them.

and I also don't love the analysis of what it is that I do because it kind of ruins it for me I like just not knowing and working as I said before like instinctively like instead of something like what you've been doing today basically

I know I was going to you know what I I try not to take offense no that's right but I've heard no but like it's it's hard for me to actually try and understand it. That's why I usually just agree with...

Right. So all the time you said you sound like you got it, you were basically just agreeing. No, no. I genuinely think that I haven't figured out how you do what you do, but I do think what I have figured out is that you can't interrogate the mystery too much. And just as in the films,

you're more interested in the how than the why in certain respects. the mechanisms and the ways, the rationalizations and the shifts in power as opposed to what's behind all this. I think in a weird way, I think I take that from the filmmaking process a bit like there isn't a kind of universal solution. There isn't necessarily a unitary meaning. You exist as a viewer within the tensions. And if I can make this about me even more than it already is, like I do try to, when I'm making it, documentary rather than say like what's the meaning or what's the takeaway I find it easier to talk about tensions there's a tension between um the urge to be tolerant uh and humane towards

even predatory people like pedophiles while also taking a sufficient account of the seriousness of their crimes how do you balance those two moral imperatives there isn't really an answer no and that's the beauty of it like of what we do like you you know offer these things to people and then they make what they want with it. Like it's it's impossible to control. Like that's the weird thing about it. Like, because you have to make so many decisions making something, either a documentary or a narrative film.

You make so many decisions thinking that you have some kind of control. They're going to say these things. They're going to be in this house. There's going to be this music. And you think that you have this control and creating this work that you hope will have some kind of impact. But like, in reality, imagine how, what we were saying before, like, how different people are and how they're going to perceive it in different ways.

And you have to be able to just let that go and say, yeah, people are going to, you know, think different things about it. And that's why I also said, like, before, like, I agree because nothing is wrong. there's no version of what you think about well there might be some extreme ones but like you can't say like you're wrong thinking you know this part is funny and this isn't and you're not wrong

like you have a different sense of humor you have a different experience in life or different understanding of situations or tensions as you say and it might be something personal that you recognize that makes you experience in a different way so it's like you have to kind of let

go. One of the things that your films also often are marked by, distinguished by his amazing performances, most recently by Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons in the past, also William Defoe, Olivia Coleman, Colin Farrell, many others. And yet it's also been said by them that you don't say that much. And they say they'll come to you and say like, why am I doing this? Like, why have I decided to hack out my own liver? And you know, that's a reference. Spoiler. or cut off my own finger. Why? And then you like, you don't, you say it's not about why.

Yeah. That's why I keep working with Emma because he doesn't ask those questions anymore. She stopped doing that. She stopped doing that. No, they all get it, I think, eventually. But like, I understand that the urge of an actor to have a little bit more information.

But I think it's more beneficial for everyone if we don't analyze things too much. And, you know, I try to work with people that I trust a lot. And that also is the same for people behind the camera, but also the actors. That I know they'll bring something that is hopefully surprising and something that I didn't necessarily expect. But, yeah, no, I've been lucky that I try to make sure that, you know, like I, the actors that I work with have a sense of

what it is, you know, my work and, you know, they appreciate it in a certain way and then I think also to get along as people like just how communication is and how the interaction is. And then I think then it becomes easy to just, you know, trust them and they trust you. And also the benefit of course of working multiple times with them is that, you know,

you build trust more and more. But I think it's, well, the reason to get back to that that I don't like to say too much to them or explain too much is because, like, I have an explanation, but they might have an explanation that's more interesting. Also, you know, it allows me to have a distance when I see, when I observe what it is that they're doing and what they're bringing. And that allows me to see if maybe it's not working. because if it's something that we both have agreed on, then you kind of tend to think that's the correct thing and you kind of tend to even see that that you agreed even if it doesn't exist.

So I prefer to not know what it is that they're thinking and then they bring it and if I go like, that doesn't look right, I can tell them. But if it is, it's great because you know, you didn't necessarily expect that or it is what you expected and they're doing it. you know, they're making it even greater. So that's the reason.

It's not like some kind of punitive process of... It's just like I think it's beneficial for them as well. And I think they get it. Like with Amite was naturally like that from the beginning. And that's why we get along so well. Did she say that you sometimes do line reads of bad line read? Yeah. Now I love to do that even more.

When she said that it annoys her. What I, yeah, I do like If it's a cadence, you don't like. Yeah, like or, you know, or something physical or I just try to emit her and go like, don't do it like this. And she goes like, okay, you don't have to do. I get it. It's a big no-no, isn't it, doing line reads?

Someone told me that once. Yeah. Why? Because like it's insulting or? I guess it's insulting. The other thing is like it's reductive. Like it's, yeah, then you have to like mimic the other person. Like doing something?

Sometimes I watch films, not yours, but you think, I think you've got that line wrong. Like, I think you're emphasizing the wrong word. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's off-putting you think, like, why didn't the director just say, no, just say, you can't handle the truth? You know what I mean? I know what you mean. Imagine saying that to Jack Nicholson.

Yeah. I think he got that one right. It's good he gets it right most of the times. Yeah. That's the thing. Like, I think intelligent, talented actors do not get the line right. wrong. Right. It's just about finding the nuances and the diversity of what that can be and, you know, try and capture that and then be able to play around with that during the editing so that you can, you know, sculpt their performances. And, uh, but yeah, I just love, I didn't start out like that. I got, I just love finding people that I can trust and I feel like they bring much more than I could. could have imagined. I think I started out thinking like, I have to control everything and I am the one

who knows best about everything. And, you know, by working with people, you know, multiple times and trusting them and I realized that it's so much better to just, you know, get ideas from everyone and then, you know, just have the confidence to sort them out and understand what's beneficial for the end result in what isn't. So, yeah, I just love giving them the freedom as well. It's not like withholding information just to tease them or anything. It's just like giving them, I see it as giving them more freedom to come up with their own ideas about the character or the scene or what that is.

Do you have a sense of what separates the really good actors? from the not so good actors. Is this like mystic... Because I'm such a terror, I can't act. Please don't ask me to be in one of your films. I was going right after, as soon as we're finished. I know you were thinking it.

Yeah, you can see it in my eyes. How do they... You know, I'm always mystified. And I even sit, because we had Florence Pugh on the podcast. I will tell you if you get a line wrong. Would you? I will tell you. Because you're famous for that.

Stress. That word. What do they do? No, you said, I said you are famous for that. You are famous for that. Yeah. You can't have. handle the truth. You've obviously got an eye for actors. You know, you work with great actors.

They bring great, you get great performances out of them. What do actors do? How do they do that? I don't know how they do. It's incredible. You know, a good sign for me is like when they're in a terrible film and they're still decent within a terrible film, I think that they have like a quality that shines through anything. So that's something to look out for, I think. Do you watch many terrible films? I mean, inadvertently. Do you stay across what Hollywood is doing?

I try as much as, you know... Is there something you can learn? I mean, learn or like... Learn. I'm curious about the state of things. You know how Tarantino will see anything? Yeah. and say anything.

What do you think about that? For people who don't know. Well, we're not criticizing him about speaking too much and then say something about him. That's as far as I'll say. I didn't mean like that, but he famously in the last couple of days has said of Paul, is it Dana?

Dano, I think. Paul Dano, who's a terrific actor who's in, there will be blood and, what was he, another one I should call, Prisoners. Prisoners, yeah. And for some reason. He's directed films as well.

Quentin Territon. decided to publicly criticize him. Yeah. Well, we don't have to. No, we don't have to pile on that. We know, Paul Dano. Oh, there goes that clip, mate. Thanks very much.

How's the internet? We've got to feed the internet. Feed the internet. The internet is hungry. But everybody's defended Paul Dana. And he doesn't need defending because, you know, that's just something someone said. But my point was, before you got to say. down a click date side passage was Quentin Tarantino.

You brought it up, not me. Well, I mean, you brought up Quentin Tarantino. So he famously, he's like, I'll go and see, he said something. He's a fan of just movies, and he'll go and see and whatever comes out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Are you like that? No.

Would you go see like a Marvel film? I think you don't have kids. Is that right? No, I don't. No. There's no reason for me to do that. Did you watch the Minecraft movie? No, I don't know what that is.

You don't know what it is? No. That was the number two box office film of the year, I believe. I'm not their audience, I guess. Wow. Number one was a Chinese film that I didn't recognize. You might have known what it was. I'm not going to go down all the list of the hip films.

No, but yeah, I mean, I do watch films. Marvel? I mean, if one of them kind of intrigues me for some reason. For some recent superhero film you saw. That has intrigued me. Tell me some. Well, there was a Superman reboot. Didn't see that.

Lego Batman? I saw the previous Superman. Lego Batman. Lego Batman, though. It's funny. The previous Superman was which one? There's been so many. It's like the in-between.

Yeah, they keep rebooting it. There was that film which I just couldn't believe what I was saying. He was like saving, I think it was New York City. And like he was throwing people like on buildings. And the buildings would be destroyed. So I was thinking like he's killing way more people than the bad guy would by just destroying all these buildings and collapsing. It's like they always say about the death star, right?

Yeah. There was a lot of probably cleaners on the death star. Do you know what I mean? Just non-partisan, non-ideological support stuff. And then they blow up the Death Star. And we're all like, yeah. Tens of thousands of people. Yeah.

So I don't know. I'll go watch something that. Yeah. Spider-Man? It's been a while. Would you have watched like the original reboot, which was the brand of, not Brian DePama. Who is it?

Sam Ramey. Sam Ramey. I think I watched that, yeah, with Toby Maguire. And Willem Defoe, your friend. And Willem Defoe, my friend. Willem is in everything. Tell him that. I'm sure he'd appreciate the compliment.

No, I tell him this. But he loves working. Like, he's, like, that's someone you love having on set. Like, he loves working. Apparently, like, I interviewed him as well. Yeah. And he was like, yeah, I love making the movies. And then he didn't literally say this,

but it was along the lines of, Yeah, but when they come out, I'm not that interested. Yeah, I listened to that, yeah. Did you? Yeah, so he's, yeah, he's not... I think you insulters in one point. Maybe I did. What was it that I said? I don't remember, but it was funny. I was aware that...

I was aware that... I was aware that... I felt like... I also loved Abramovits pounding you. Did you like that? That sounds sexual. Well... For people who don't know,

Marina Abramovich was a recent guest as a podcast. the most famous, arguably the most famous performance artist now living. She didn't pound me exactly. She was playfully, I enjoyed her. I enjoyed it. I connoctious. She's feisty.

She's feisty, yeah. I like that. Are there mainstream Hollywood directors that you watch out for and you find interesting? Or mainstream? Well, they find mainstream. You say mainstream in Hollywood. Forget mainstream.

It's like really complex the issue. Like is Paul Tom. Thomas Anderson a mainstream? Yeah. Forget mainstream. Yeah, of course. Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah.

But I love talking more about like, you know, Kelly Ryehart and people like that that I find, you know, well, not enough people, you know, know their films. She's got a new film out. She's got the masterminds. Yeah. Like brilliant. I don't know. I don't really know who. I don't know her work.

See? Even you? Even. I love the Even. Has she made me? many films? He's made quite a few years. Did you like... What was it called? What was the one about the sex worker?

Anora. Anora? Yeah. Was that up your alley? Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. I'm not going to become Quentin Tarantino. I didn't know. That wasn't... We lost everyone with Kelly Ryehart, right? I don't know what to do with Kelly Ryehart.

Yes. I'll give you something else. I gave you Paul Thomas Anderson, but he doesn't need it. because he's like so popular right now. Like I watch Spielberg movies and I watch Scorsese and, you know, of course. You know, I feel like I'm on the edge of losing everyone. Not, no, not at all actually. Ariasta, we already mentioned. The Safdi brothers you've talked about.

The Safdi's, they're my friends. We grew up together. No, we didn't grow up together. But we met during Dog Tooth, actually. They had their film Daddy Long Legs and we met. Was that then? Yeah. Yeah, it's great.

And yeah, we became friends. Nicholas Cage? No. Oh, you're talking about the latest one, Longlegged. Jesus Christ, you're so illiterate. Why am I even here? There's another thing? No, Daddy Longlegs, it was 2009.

The softies are, maybe you know, uncut gems. Of course I've seen uncut. Good time. And now they have both. made individual films that they directed. Marty Supreme is one that Josh Safdi did. Is that good? Yeah.

Well, I haven't seen it. But my people say it's good. And Ben Safti did, oh, Ben, I'm sorry. I'll remember in a second. The Smashing Machine with The Rock. So they've both made films. Yeah, they're great. Let's arrive somewhere.

I mean, I don't want to peel the layers away, so you should, and I have a bad habit of doing that. But I know, okay, I'll say this. So you grew up, you're an only child, your dad wasn't in the picture for a lot of it. Yeah. Your mum died when you were 17. Yeah. And you never really reconciled as far as I were with your dad. Or insofar as that terms appropriate.

It's not as though you became massively close with your dad after that? No, no. I would like see him every now and then. But like, yeah, we're never very close now. Do you think you have a suspicion of family life? Yes, so. I mean, I do have a very particular view and experience about it. Maybe that's part of how, you know, we started something like Dog Tooth, for example.

Maybe, yeah, the reason I don't want to have kids, maybe. You don't want to, really? But also, you know, the state of the world. world doesn't really encourage. Do you feel gloomy about the state of the world? It's, yeah, it's something that I'm like trying to, I'm wrestling with because, yeah, everything points to that. But then how useful is to just say that. And, you know, whatever is left of it, what do you do with it? What do you, what's top of your list in terms of threats that you, you see? Because there's quite a few

to choose from. There's quite a few, yeah, that's the thing but that's the thing. Like it's overwhelming. Yeah, like it's, you know, yeah, the environment, refugees, like, that's up my alley, like in Greece. That's how most of them are trying to escape the horrors of...

Is that still going on? Of course, yeah. There was a crisis on Lesbos, was it back in the day? There still is. It's the same. It hasn't... It's just like we're, you know, we're focused on different things. But that's still... It's still happening.

Is it like a refugee camp on Lesbos? There's... They don't call them camps anymore. They call them hospitality centers or something like that. But they are like camps. And they're not just on Lesbos. They're on many islands and on mainland. And yeah, it's pretty, yeah, rough situation.

And then let's not even talk about, you know, what's going on. Gaza and West Bank in which you did a documentary that I'd like it to be longer. Oh, thank you. So, yeah, there's, well, America. What's going on there? Like the rise of, you know, right-wing... Right-wing populism? Populism everywhere.

Like, there's so much. Like, we're probably not the best to talk about these things, but, you know, I do notice them. Would you ever think, well, I'd shine a light on this with a film. I think perhaps you're not issue driven in that way, in that straightforward a way. I'm, I guess I'm not, but I'm, it's hard to ignore it more and more. Yes, I am political, but it's not. I explore, as you said, like whatever, human power dynamics or whatever, and it's never directly political.

I think Bougonia is more directly political than, like there's political reference. specific political references. And yeah, I'm like in a place where I'm wondering whether I need to do something which is, yeah, more directly political in terms of like addressing some things more head-on. And I don't know what that is. Maybe I'll make a documentary. Welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that.

I was definitely reaching my limit of journalistic or podcast hosting competence. Like there were times when I thought, well, when the guest calls you illiterate, albeit slightly tongue and cheek, you realise maybe you haven't brought your A game, or maybe your A game is there C game or D game. Yorga said, I don't have much to gain from reviews that praise the work. Do you agree? Well, since we recorded, I've had a film come out.

Louis Theroux inside the Manosphere, a Netflix documentary. I found that I preferred reading the positive reviews. I don't know that I learned much from them. I didn't read all the negative reviews. You're surprised that there were any. There were a few. One had a headline. they called the film an infuriating failure.

Millie found that very funny. That's the most I've seen her laugh. I mean, you could spin that as a positive. Yeah, maybe you should be infuriated. Maybe the failure is you. Maybe the world is a mirror and it's bouncing back. Think about that, reviewer. I try not to memorize their names,

which suggests I do memorize their names. If you find yourself in Athens, in Greece, not Georgia, between now and May, Jorgos has a photography exhibition open now. It was reviewed in the New York Times very favorably. We'll put a link in the show notes for that. Have you checked out the show notes, people at home in Radio Land? I'm amazed. I don't do them. I'm not sure who is doing them, but they're...

I mean, if I just have to say, like, oh, I like the smell of my own farts, and they'll have a little link to, like... You know, farts. You know, it's extraordinary. That's not a good example. Like they're going to put up the Wikipedia page for Athens, probably. No, it's amazing, though. Are you doing that? Ellie does them. Wow. Maybe too many. No. It's just right. For me, the big takeaway was that he'd seen my documentaries and genuinely seemed to have got something out of them.

For Millie, the takeaway is that someone reviewed my film and the headline was Louis Theroux's Manusphere film is an infuriating failure. Oh, wow. That's it from me for a while. We'll be back with more episodes quicker than you can say, the Louis Theroux podcast. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Artemis Irvine.

The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. We do a lot of our shopping these days online. I've often thought in another life I could have had a blossoming online shop on Shopify. What would I sell?

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