The Louis Theroux Podcast - S8 EP1: Gary Lineker on England’s losing streak, leaving the BBC, and his frosty relationship with Cristiano Ronaldo

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

For the first episode in the series, QPR fan Louis Theroux speaks with former England captain, broadcaster and fellow podcasting titan, Gary Lineker. Speaking ahead of the World Cup in North America, the pair discuss why England always lose, Gary’s split with the BBC, and why Cristiano Ronaldo doesn’t speak to him anymore.   Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    TV Show: Tiger, (2021)  ⁠https://tv.apple.com/gb/show/tiger/umc.cmc.1p5g95s1v5v0t7i8xjgc1f0wo⁠     TV Show: When Lineker Met Maradona, (2006)  ⁠https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cgb3⁠     TV Show: Match of the Day, (1964 – present)  ⁠https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b007t9y1/match-of-the-day⁠     Article: BBC has ducked this for too long — it must stand up to brazen Gary Lineker  (2025)  ⁠https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/gary-lineker-instagram-post-bbc-matthew-syed-9x0jjhwcg⁠     Music Video: Total Eclipse of the Heart, Bonnie Tyler (1983)   ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo⁠     Podcast: Lineker & Baker: Behind Closed Doors (2018-2020)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/3GxmEAvR7lOSfpGAqnL9s1⁠     Podcast: We Have Ways of Making You Talk (2019 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/34VlAepHmeloDD76RX4jtc⁠     Podcast: The Rest Is History (2020 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/7Cvsbcjhtur7nplC148TWy⁠     Podcast: The Rest Is Politics (2022 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1Ysx8g1Iw42gESAtegrFaH⁠     Podcast: The Rest Is Classified (2024 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1Jn1HIW6I1AQnKVpsJHdEf⁠     Podcast: The Rest Is Entertainment (2023 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1mDl2B7a016YRXR2wSBy4T⁠     Podcast: The Rest Is Football (2023 – present)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/2fDn3EgvJZ5J1k5rrBwrlZ⁠     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Researcher: Rachael Devine  Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify   ⁠www.mindhouse.co.uk⁠     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to a brand new series of the Louis Theroux podcast. And for our first episode, I'm joined by none other than English footballing icon, Pundit Extraordinaire, podcasting Emperor and Face of Walker's Crisp's Gary Linneker. Gary is one of the country's best-known sports personalities playing as striker for Lester, Everton, Tottenham, Barcelona and of course England. through the 80s and 90s and winning the golden boot at the 1986 World Cup as the tournament's top scorer. After retiring from professional football in 1994,

he took the reins of the BBC's iconic football highlights show Match of the Day, becoming one of the most recognisable faces on British TV. In later years, Gary's become vocal about his political and humanitarian views on Twitter. In 2023, he temporarily stepped back from presenting for the BBC over his criticism of the British government's immigration policy. There was further controversy over a post about Zionism that Gary shared on Instagram the following year,

leading to Gary leaving match of the day after 26 years at the helm. We talk about all of this in the chat. Gary's also launched a podcasting empire. Oh-oh. Under his previous moniker, sometimes it's a term of abuse, Gollhanger. You know goalhanger. There are neighbors here at Spotify.

They're sometimes in the studio next door. They make, the rest is politics, the rest is history, the rest is football, the rest is entertainment. The rest is whatever. And they generally sit above us in the podcasting charts, not that I'm bitter. Maybe if I call it, the rest is Louis through. We'd get more downloads. Fuck those guys. It's a joke.

I was interested in sitting down with Gary, duh, because he's a footballing icon, and also a broadcasting role model. Certainly, like I admire his laid-back presenting style. He's always had the ability to seem completely. completely relaxed in front of a camera in a way that he also seemed very relaxed on the pitch. One of the things he mentions in the chat is how he never suffers from nerves, at least not while he's playing. Sometimes when he's watching TV, he gets some butterflies. He's been in the frame for a while. We've traded messages. He's always been extremely open to the

idea of coming on. The timing wasn't quite right. But now it is with the World Cup coming up. It seemed like the perfect time to hook it up. this conversation in mid-April this year at Spotify HQ. The names of the squad hadn't been announced by, I'm talking about the England squad or any of the squads. And apologies, by the way, to listeners outside of England, because I think I betray a very slight, what is it, territorialism. I mean, I'm talking quite a lot about the England team and other teams are also available. A quick warning, this conversation contains some strong language. I've already used some. And adult themes. Millie's also suggested that I say it'll become clear that I don't know much

about football or that I'm not the biggest football fan or something. I'm not reading that bit. Because I think it becomes clear that I might know something about football, but I've chosen not to show off. You did take out the bit where I said tactics are bullshit. Anyway, all of that as well as much else besides coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything, which is why you should lean on Shopify, with tools to design an eye-catching website that reaches customers.

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slash louis. That's Shopify.com slash Louis. Let's talk about the World Cup. How are you feeling about it? Not sure. In terms of the football, I'm looking forward to it. Yes, it's in USA and Mexico and Canada, all the host nations. The world's a little bit bonkers at the moment, particularly over the pond.

So I've covered so many World Cups, and I've been to them as well. And all the talk before the World Cups is always about the issues and possible issues. And, you know, we'd had Russia, didn't we in? It was in Russia. It was in Russia in 2018. And it's just a few years after Putin obviously invaded Crimea. And then we got... Even before that, you got 2014 in Brazil,

where there were mass demonstrations right around the country saying we shouldn't be spending all this money on stadiums. We should be doing it on the people and the health service and all that sort of thing. Then you got 22 with Qatar and LGBTQ rights. So there's always something building up to the World Cup. Is it illegal to be gay in Qatar? I mean, it was then.

I don't know whether that's changed now. And building of the stadiums, people losing their lives. It was definitely that. So there were, you know, and a bit of talk of corruption about when they got the bid. So this World Cup, we go into it and, you know, America's been attacking one or two countries, which will make it interesting. But I find from my experience of these World Cups that once it starts, we concentrate on the football. And it's all as well with the world again.

It's very uniting. Yeah. Do you have a favourite of recent times? Which ones stand out? Leaving aside for the moment the ones you played in 86 and 90. Qatar. Qatar. I know it's the most recent, but for me it was amazing.

And it was different as a broadcaster because we could actually go to every game that we covered. Because it's so small. Such a small country. So that was unique. The stadiums were amazing. It was very hot. No, no, because it was November December, wasn't it?

So it was actually, you know, the hottest would be like late 20s maybe, which is not too bad. Well, Europe's hotter generally in the summer than perhaps that. So that all turned out really well. It was sort of post-COVID-ish. So we were coming off the feeling of, oh, this is, we're kind of getting back to normal somewhat. Yeah. 2022, wasn't it? Yeah.

We went out in the quarters. Quarters. Quarters to France. To France. on penalties? No, we lost two one. Harry Kane missed a penalty. He scored one and missed one.

Most of you to remember they scored one. He ballooned it. People of our vintage, you could say he waddled it over the bar. Yeah, not quite as high as, I don't think Chris's has landed yet. It went into orbit and is circling our planet. But, yeah, I mean, anyone can miss a penalty. You know, you've got to be... I don't say this as someone who took penalties himself.

You know, you need to have a pair of balls to take penalties. Balls and steel is the phrase that swam into view. And I don't think he's missed one since. Has her? Actually, he missed one a couple of weeks ago for Bayern Munich. But he's a magnificent footballer. I mean, I just hope... Well, let me be the devil's advocate, right?

I don't play football to a high level. This will surprise you. No. Nevertheless, when you're watching, you think, you've got one job. You've got one job. And you're paid hundreds of thousands to kick it in the back of the net. And on paper it looks like a dream.

You don't pay hundreds of thousands in the World Cup. Not paid anything. No, but for your expertise. Yeah, I know. We're paid less, so we'll try a bit less hard. There used to be a narrative, especially when England were underperforming, that they're not trying as hard.

Do you remember that? Trying too hard is probably the issue. It wasn't that, oh, they really save it for their league games. And once it's the World Cup, they get so much validation through their day-in-day-out play why would they care about the world stage? Well, you could say that about all the French players and Spanish players and German players that have won an Italy,

Italian player, I know they're not qualified for the last three World Cups, but that's just a possible excuse, and it's a nonsense. Players care so much, that is probably the issue, is that it's this, not lack of belief, but almost trying too hard, which is much more likely to be it. You talked about Harry misses his penalty and he's paid a fortune to not do his job. Yeah, by the way, that sounds awful when you say it like that. But golfers miss chances, golfers miss puts and they're paid fortunes.

Yes. You know, it's the same. And then sports is difficult. It's quite difficult at that level. Yeah. And people are trying to stop you. You know, goalkeepers and things like that. So you've got to be very accurate.

There's a little bit of pressure. Right. That's where I'm... There's a little bit of pressure. Yeah. Do your legs feel foreign to you? Like, is it a thing of like, I'm suddenly heavy, I'm a stranger to myself? There's almost like a...

Well, we're all different. A hormone or dump of some kind. I remember, I was England penalty taker from in Mexico 86, but we didn't get a penalty in Mexico 86. And I was still the penalty taker in Italian. And in those four years, we'd never got a penalty for England. So I was the penalty taker in Italianity. my first ever penalty that I took for England

was in the quarter-files against Cameroon and were two one down with eight minutes to go. So I think, and it's funny, you know, I didn't really feel nervous. I'd practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced the penalty that I wanted to hit in the game. And because I'd practiced so frequently, I was pretty confident

and I hit it in exactly the spot that I wanted to, and it was a goal. And then something mad happened. we got another one in extra time and this time I'm thinking fuck I haven't thought about doing it again I'd never contemplated

I hadn't had one for four years so and then all of a sudden I'm thinking well the keeper move really early on that one so it probably do the same again and I didn't know which way he'd go so I thought I'll just smack it down in the middle and it works because if you go one way or the other

and the keeper goes the right way you've got to be incredibly accurate I've read you say that you don't get nerves Can that really be true in general? Like you just that sensation of butterflies Do you know when I get nerves, I get nerves watching sport but never participating in it Or even broadcasting

But watching We're recording this just after Rory McElroy won the Masters Watching Rory because I'm a massive Rory fan He's nerve-wracking Watching Lester when they were going towards the league title In that miraculous season I got nervous but not for myself

because I don't know as you quite rightly say you get paid a lot of money because you're quite good at what you do and I think also to be a striker I don't know how you can be a striker if you're a bit nervous I was almost cold

when I was young very ambitious very driven very cold emotionally cold in life yes I I've heard you say this before and it really jumped out.

Yeah, dramatically changed. I don't know whether it was having kids. I don't know whether it was George's illness when he was a baby. It's just a culmination of things. And I don't think I was particularly empathetic when I was a footballer. I think I was just focused on so much on the game itself and my career and how to score goals and how to score more goals and more goals. And looking back now, I don't really think I'd probably like myself that much back there.

Go on I don't know I don't know what my teammates I remember Mark With Mark Hughes I play with at Barcelona And I can't remember what Something happened

He went God you're really cold aren't you You don't And I know So yeah Yeah And I went

Oh really Yeah maybe Do you think you were like that In your Romantic relationships No No No

No I don't think so Maybe A little bit driven But I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, what it suggests is a kind of aloofness or a freedom from neediness that could probably be quite attractive.

I think I can see that that gives you a sort of power, like you're permanently self-possessed. Yeah, maybe. I mean, you'll have to ask my ex-wife. We'll have to get... First wife, obviously. We'll have to get a changed person. Michelle, was it?

Michelle, yeah. Michelle on next week. Yeah, she'll come on, she'll be fine. I wouldn't be worried if Michelle came on. She'd say nice things. You mentioned George's illness. Just so people feeling, like, believe it or not, we have audiences listening who may not know

that you went through this extraordinary... That was a long time ago? Yeah, this extraordinary. I mean, the most horrific thing you could imagine. Yeah, he was about six weeks old. First son, first child. All sons had it. actually.

You had four boys, yeah. And George was the first. And after out six weeks, he had this little, like, not a spot, but like a little lump on the top of his forehead. And we thought, well, that's a bit odd. So we thought, well, we'll go in and get him checked. And they looked at it, and they said, oh, it looks like it might be this skin condition.

And they said, we'll take a little sample of it. So they took it, and then they said come back in, I think they said, about 10 days, and we should have the results. So in this interim period, a lot more of these bumps. And his head was like, most all on his head. And his head was almost like a golf ball. And it was very odd. So we go back, and I didn't forget, there was two doctors there. I was edgy.

We were nervous, but they said the reports come back, and it's what we thought. it was, it's a dermatological issue and I went oh, thank goodness for that. And I said, well, you say to that, I said, but the last week he's not, he's really not been very well and he's grown in a lot and his

glands are up a little, and they went, oh, let's, and they took his little outfit off and took his nappy off, and they just had a little feel around, and they looked at each other. And they went, Mr. and Mrs. Linnickam, I'm, I'm

sorry, but this is something, I think, much more serious. And we've gone, well, what do you mean? And they said, well, I'll have to do some tests, but it really does look like leukemia. So, I knew leukemia was a blood cancer, but beyond that, I didn't know too much. And it was like, wham. And within two hours, we were in the back of an ambulance being rushed to Great Ormond Street, and he's getting stuff pumped into him and he was in hospital for about seven weeks

at least two occasions they told us they didn't think he'd make it through the night but somehow he did and it was it was really really brutal I mean Michelle spent seven months in the hospital didn't leave it except we popped out for dinner some nights

I used to I was there all in the daytime and there wasn't enough space to sleep tours anyway. I didn't play for about three or four weeks. But actually when I went back to training, it was so helpful football for me then. Was it? In the off-season or we didn't...

No, it's in the middle of the season. It was... It was... It was... It was before Christmas. So it was, yeah, November-ish, I think, and late November. And then I didn't play for a few weeks.

And then I went back in to train and actually do you know what football at that point was it was the only time that I didn't think about it and it could switch off a little bit and I got back playing again a few weeks later and then you know back to the hospital all day and it was incredibly tough but whilst there was always a little bit of hope

you sort of clung to that but there were lots of you know on the same ward parents that weren't as lucky as we were You know, George is now 34, incredibly healthy and well. Amazing. You know, I remember when they, because they're very honest doctors. I mean, they have to. I remember that first conversation when, after they got the proper diagnosis,

and they said, well, what does this mean? And they said, well, it depends which one he's got if it's this and that, but it was acute myeloid leukemia. And they said, well, the chances of survival are probably, between 10 and 20%. And so they were very honest and it was like, oh my God. Wow.

And used to have these dreams. I used to have these awful dreams of me carrying a little white coffin all the time, almost every night. But there's no lasting side effects for him. He's basically... I mean, there are a few things that are possible side effects over the years

but he's great. No, he's amazing. He's in good health? He's a fitness machine. He works. He says Fanatic. Works out every day. He's doing really well. And he's got a lovely sense of humour about the whole thing.

None of your sons are footballers? Everyone remarks on that. That's part of the interviewing 101 when you're talking to Gary Lineke. They always say like, none of your sons are footballers? Well, they would disagree with you. Well, the two middle ones would definitely disagree. The three youngest play, George is not... That we're inclined.

By his own admission, he's not the most talented footballer. And I once stood on the sidelines when he was like, I didn't know, he was about 11, 12, and he's playing in the game. And a mother, one of the mothers of the opposing team player came up and went, that's your son up there, isn't it? I went, yeah, yeah, she went, I thought it would be better than that. I said, you should see his mother play. That's a good line.

But you've made a thing of being relaxed about, well, not wanting to pressure kids in general, and your own sons in particular into sports. It doesn't help. The end doesn't help. I mean, the jury's out on that. If you've seen the documentaries, like the one about Tiger Woods, whose dad was training him in golf. But I guarantee Tiger Woods would have been equally as good.

I can't test that, can we? We can't. The Williams sisters would be another one. Agassi, he's a paradox because he played obviously to an incredibly high level, but professed to hate the sport because of the work ethic and the intensity of his... That is, there's some interesting stuff being done in Norway at the moment with youngsters. It's incredible. I don't know whether you've noticed, but they're producing like a plethora of talented sports people.

Well, you were seeing the winter Olympics, it's like... Winter Olympics right at the top. Norway. They've got people like Harlem. It is cold. The weather's got to be a factor. Well, for the winter Olympics, it would help. But, you know, for golf, for example, you know, Victor Hoyle.

But what they've done there, they've basically let kids play sport if they want to. to and do what they want. There's no league tables. There's no winning and losing. You're just playing for fun. And they've found that so many more young people are sticking with sport because they're having fun and enjoying it. Whereas before, and in most other countries, there's maybe the parents are pushing them

or the coaches are pushing them. And so many kids get put off sport and hate it. Anyway, I think you picked out a few sports people. that have made it to the very top, and it's very public, that we know what their parents, and they did have pushy parents. My view is they probably made it in spite of them,

rather than because of them. And I can't prove that. But I know so many sports people that have been incredibly successful that have had support from their parents, but the parents haven't necessarily pushed them, who were also, you know, someone like messy, for example, or, you know, you could find so many examples

of sports people that haven't had parents that have pushed them all the way. They've probably supported them. And I think there's a fundamental difference. But because we know about the William sisters and we know about Tiger Woods, everyone uses those an example. I wonder if it's the same for Rory Macaroy, Scottish Shepherd.

Clearly Rory's parents are incredibly supportive. But pushy, I don't think so. Makes me feel a lot better about my parenting style. Good. Yeah. Stay on the iPad. Do it more. Be the best at that.

Don't bother me. Just don't bother me. Leave me alone. Going back to the World Cup for a second. The narrative is, I should probably say the men's football World Cup. Yeah. I keep adding, maybe there's Earth.

Maybe I should add it of Earth, planet Earth. On planet Earth. The narrative is that England, obviously, we won, the English team won in 66. I've never heard anyone mention. And it's like, ever since we've got the sense of entitlement or a feeling that, well, we should have won it again by now. Well, we should have won it. Is that misplaced or not?

No, we're one of the great footballing nations. We've got, you know, arguably the strongest league in world football. We've produced some incredible talent, amazing players, but it's not quite happened. Is that part of the problem? We have the Premier League, but how English is it? Well, the Premier League is part of the problem. The success. Too many bloody foreigners.

No, that's not the issue. They said that ironically. I know you did. I just wanted to make clear, though. But the issue is too many games. And our game is, you know, high octane. So it's... Generally, we're pretty knackered by the summer.

Is it? Yeah. And I think I can see it happening again. But that's... I can see it happening again. Seriously. Yeah, it's tough. But all it does is lessen our chances slightly.

It doesn't mean to say we can't win it. You retire... You retire... from football at 30, 31? No, I was 32 when I finished in England and I moved to Japan for two years. So my last game was actually on my 34th. And you said yourself, you're off your pace a bit by then.

Oh yeah. Harry Kane is 32. Yeah. But it's different now. The longevity of football is much greater now. You know, obviously through diet and the way players look after themselves. you know, the drinking culture that was around when we were playing.

But the styles different anyway. Do you think watching the World Cup and the Euros with family members, there was always this feeling of frustration like, Garry Southgate obviously was a manager, and it felt like he was conservative. It was like Unleash the Beast, look what you've got on the bench. Do you know what I'm talking about? Bring on Jack Greelish, like actually Unleash Hell.

And there was this very conservative, Don't be careful, defend, don't rush, don't be too creative. Well, I think that's a fair criticism of Gareth, but at the same time, I think it's very important to look where England were when he took over the job. We were in a mess, real mess, not doing very well. He took over from Roy Hodgson. That's right. We'd had a nightmare. We'd lost to Iceland in the European Championship. We didn't get through the group stage in the previous world. We lost to Iceland, a team of...

A team of fishmongers. Uber drivers I know A lot of geeseers They were literally A couple of them were literally Amateur players Yeah well yeah

It was an embarrassment So he took over at a point Where we're at probably an all-time low Or one of the all-time lows And he And everyone was against the England players And they were getting a terrible time And he transformed that

I understand the criticism And I said it myself On occasions that He is cautious But he was a defender himself, and his argument would be that most teams that win tournaments play that way. And you could say that's true, although Spain showed that that very much wasn't the case in that year.

So, yeah, and he was a little bit tentative with making substitutions, but you've got to remember when England are playing in a tournament, and we're as I'm as guilty as anyone, we've all got our view on who we think should be playing, and why is he not on the pitch now? He didn't like Jack Grish. He didn't like Jack. I don't think he didn't like Jack. I mean, you'd have to get Goward Southgate on to ask you about that. Do you not think he likes Gareth?

I don't know. That is what they said. That was what someone in the room said. But people will say he didn't like, you know, why did he play so and so? Why did he not? Bring Jack, come on. He just run in circles in the box. How have you never been in football punditry?

I'd love to see you think, look, he's just running in circles. That's why he didn't bring him on. So Yeah, you've made a good case for Gareth Southgate We'll see, and it'll be interesting under Under the new man Thomas Tuchel Thomas Tuchol

Yeah He's different I like his vibe But he's got a good vibe He's Germanic intensity He's German, isn't he Yeah I mean I when he

When he originally joined Chelsea I was talking to a German journalist I said he seems a bit like crazy And he went, well, he said he's 60% genius, 40% psychopath. Really? Yes. But that may be what we need.

I mean, even if we're legally safe with that. He denies that he's a psychopath. Well, I would imagine he does. Maybe he thinks he's just 35% psychopath. I don't know. Maybe you need that. I think, well, you need it to take that job. Worst job in the world.

Well, it's not, though. It's a great job. It's like part-time as well. I heard an interview, you were on Desert Island Discs, Sue Lawley interview. Oh God. Why did you say, oh God? Because I was so young and I know nothing about music and it was... The selection was...

Interesting. Very safe. It was like Eric Clapton, you look wonderful tonight, Rod Stewart. I did do... I was like, it's going to be Christopher Lady in redness. I did do the BBC cricket theme tune. You did, do you? By Bucketty and the MGs.

But you only knew it was Booker T and the MGs because you'd looked it up. Correct. I'm going to say I googled it. I don't think Google's around then. It was 1990, I think. You were still playing. But you said at that time, they said, like, would you want to be a manager?

And you said, no. And then you said, well, maybe if it was England. Do you remember saying that? No. You said, I wouldn't mind managing England. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I've changed my mind.

I've changed my mind. I wouldn't be. They call it the hardest job in the world. That's the kind of expression, is it? Yeah, it's the impossible job. They called it, didn't they? And, well, it's not if you just got a win. which so far it's been impossible

but been close on occasions it will happen hopefully before I die I'd love to see us win like one of these major tournaments might even be this one you never know money in football

is a topic that comes up a lot do you know who the highest paid footballer in the Premier League is oh um probably harland yeah according to my notes yeah For people at home who don't know,

Man City Danger Man, he's Norwegian. It's Norwegian, yeah. He's Norwegian. He's a big figure of a man. Oh, he's a... Imagine being a defender. Trying to defend against that. Very difficult.

It's a man mountain. He's a Viking. Earning a reported, take it for what it's worth, $525,000 pounds per year, you ask? No, per week. It's a living. 27.3 million annually. That's about what you were on by the end, is it?

At the end of what? 27 million pounds annually. Let that sink in. Plus there's tons of sponsorships and stuff. Double that. He's probably making 50 million a year. I was probably one of the top paid players in the world when I was at Barcelona and Tottenham.

And I would have been on about four days of his salary. So I was on about 325 grand a year, which was big at the, felt enormous. It felt amazing. What about when you started at Leicester? I started at Leicester as an apprentice at 16 and I was paid 16 pounds a week and they gave me a separate envelope with a fivering that was for my mum because all the kids that got digs that were from other places not because I was a local lad.

So they thought it's only fair that your mum gets paid a little bit and my mum would never take it. So I was actually on 21 quid a week When you're an apprentice Are you playing? Are you part of the team? Not the first team I was in the youth team Yeah I mean if you're as good as

As the aluminium matter as you are But I wasn't I was a slow developer I didn't reach puberty till I was 17 Which was a bit embarrassing Which was a bit embarrassing Oh you still waiting That's a weird joke

How much would you have made Once you started in the first team A hundred quid a week I was on Yeah 100 quid away Did that seem all right I didn't really think I don't think I don't think

18 I got a professional contract 18th birthday and then it went up to I was top score in the Division 1 as it was then called and I was on

I think 400 quid a week 24 years old and that's when I moved to Everton for a year so it's it's gone up but it felt like a lot of time watching you

as a younger man what struck me was, you didn't seem to be doing very much. Like, it was like, he's just, he just sticks his leg out and it goes into the goal. Like, that's doing a lot, isn't it? I mean, it's a goal like this is what could be better than that. But I couldn't understand how you were able to score so much and make it seem relatively effortless. And then obviously this has come up a lot.

I think that's a compliment. Your podcast company is called Gollhanger. Yes. And you played with the idea that, oh, I was sort of the right place, right? time. But in a way that was your style, right? I think the thing is that you are in the right place at the right time, but you're actually in the right place all the time, but often the ball is not. So the secret of scoring goals is it's the law of probability. So most strikers and most people I watch wait to see

where the ball is going to be crossed and then attack the ball. others say from midfield they'll wait to see where the pass is and then they'll chase the pass the way you score goals is to gamble on the space where you think the cross might go where you can score from

so if you keep doing that run now 19 times out of 20 the ball won't go there it'll go behind you it'll go behind the goal the keeper will catch it it won't go to that spot where you think it might go So if you keep going at that spot, that spot, then another.

And just gambling on where you think it might go, on the 20th time, you'll be there and the ball goes in that spot and you've got an easy chance. Everyone looks at it, see, right place, right time. They don't see the other 19 times where you were in the right place, but the ball wasn't. That is the secret to scoring goals. And I understood that. So by the time it gets to the perfect ball comes, you go, it's a tap-in. And it's amazing.

It's always like easy goals, like you just said, just stick your leg out. But I always wondered why everybody didn't get it. Seems quite simple when you put it like that. I think it's simple. People say, can you teach that? Or does it have to be instinct? I don't think he's instinct. I'd chat with Thomas Muller, you know, the famous German, brilliant goal scorer.

And he said exactly the same thing. I saw him do an interview, and he was saying exactly about the laws of problems. and the maths of it. And I thought, yeah, someone gets it. You've talked a lot about 86 being pivotal. You'd come up, you were a relatively late developer, having been signed to Lester, you were late Bloomer physically, like, reached puberty late,

and that physicality came late as a result. Your early 20s when you're hitting your stride. Then you get called up 86 Mexico. It was a legendary World Cup for various reasons. very, very hot, wasn't it? And you were coming off the back of a string of, I want to say, failures to score, right? I think you said there were like several games on the drop for the national level.

Yeah, I'd gone four or five games with that goal for England before the World Cup and then didn't score in the first two. So I think I was about six games of that goal. And I thought Bobby would leave me out. Bobby Robson, an England manager. Yeah, lovely guy, no longer with us, sadly. But he stuck with me. He stuck with you.

You'd been scoring. You'd been banging them away for Leicester City and then Everton. So you came with all that history. They must have known, well, he's got something. It makes me think of the old man. I've been scoring for England prior to that in the qualifiers. I scored a hat-trick. You know, I was banging the goals for England.

And then it was just a little dry spell at the end of the season. The pre-World Cup friend is. It feels weird when you're in a dry spell. It is weird because you don't really do anything different. And it's very important that you don't do anything differently. Yeah. Sometimes it's service dries up. For a striker, no service, what can you do?

Well, exactly. Blame everyone else, that's what you do. You blame them. I said, come on, get the ball in the box. And then you go in, the first one is Morocco or Portugal? In that World Cup, was Portugal. Lost to Portugal. And then Morocco, you would think we would...

Yeah, but then we got... Then Brian Robson disdicated his shoulder, and Ray Wilkins got sent off. Was Brian Robson the captain? Yes. So then you go into the third game. It's against Poland. Yeah.

My favourite bit was prior to the game when Bobby Robson, who was, let's say his team talks went on a bit. Good thing. Very long. So he normally did about 45 minutes and he'd talk and everyone. We used to call him Mogadon. We were nodding on. I mean, he was lovely.

You'd run through a brick wall for him, but he did go on a bit in his team meetings. And he always had this flip chart next to him. And prior to this game, we'd had a bad start. We were getting pilloried at home, and he was getting dogs abuse from everywhere. Not that we're aware of it that much because we're in Mexico and there was no social media, thankfully. So he gets us in this room before, as he would do on a match day. And he goes, right, boys.

He said, you know what you've got to do to do against Poland. I could reel off all the possible permutations of results, he said, but you don't need to see that. You know what you've got to do. I trust you. You go out there. You play how you know you can play. And he did this rousing 30 seconds, 60 second speech.

And at the end of it, he went, just get out there and win. And we all went, wow, goosebumps. And we all stood up. And he went, but if anyone wants to see the permutations, he turned over the flip chart, boy. and he had it and he spent 45 minutes talking through them all. Absolutely true. But anyway, come the game, we're playing in 40 degrees, 42 degrees centigrade it was.

It's mental. And things changed. I made that, you know, that guessing on where the ball might go thing. I told you about before Gary Stevens crossed it. I was there three yards out, Bosch 1-0, and then suddenly I'd scored a hat-trick in just a few minutes. And life changed. Life changed in all sorts of different ways.

offers were coming in. You'd already been in the sites of Barcelona, right? Well, they'd, I think they'd made contact with Everton. And Everton had told us about it and suggested that they agreed a fee. This was before the World Cup. And then the World Cup was started. And I had a chat with my agent, John. And he said, right, how do we handle this?

I said, well, join the World Cup. I said, I'm with England. I said I don't want to know anything. I said let's park it till after the World Cup. This has got to be my focus. Anyway, they went pretty quiet apparently enjoying the first couple of games because I didn't score. And then I scored a hat-trick,

and then I got two more against Paraguay. And then it happened. So, you know, suddenly he score a hat-trick, things changed, top scoring in the World Cup, and then I'm in Barcelona. We should talk about one of the most famous games in English football. The match against Argentina. Yeah.

Maradona scored two goals. Yeah. I think prior probably to the last World Cup final, I think it's, and it still might be, I think it's the most famous game in history, in football history, because of all the circumstances.

It was four years after the Argentine, what we call the Argentine War, well, the Falklands were we called today. They call it Las Malvinas. Las Malvinas. I mean, historically, Argentina and the U.S. UK slack, or in this case England, there's a lot of commonality. There's a lot of mutual respect and love.

Nevertheless, there was a war. And so this was like a grudge match, wasn't it? Well, I mean, they always denied it as footballers. I saw them do press conferences, but genuinely amongst our, all I can talk about is our team, and we never really. No. And Bobby Robson was saying, you'll probably get asked questions in press conferences, just dead. bat them. Really?

All we're concentrating on is the World Cup and that's exactly. But we were aware of it. Of course we were. It was so recent. Was it quarterfinals or was it round of 16? Quarterfinals. So that's always going to be a big match. And then when you add the history, it's a great footballing nation.

That's a classic matchup, right? And then what happened in the match itself? You then had probably the most controversial goal ever scored when Maradonna punches it in. And then probably the best goal. goal that's ever been scored. So to have those two things just a few minutes apart in the same match, and then we came back a bit, and John Barnes came on, knocked it across,

and I got us back in it, and then I nearly scored at the end. Yes, yeah. Let's get that on the record. Yes, well, I scored the goal that no one remembers in that game. Was Diego Maradonna, was he as legendary then at that time? How well known was he? Was he at his peak? What would...

I would say it was absolutely. at his peak, mid-20s. He was unbelievably good. So 86, everyone would have known who he was. Oh, yeah. He was absolutely, the world's biggest superstar footballer. Do you think the defenders were told, keep an eye on Diego? Well, I played in a game against him, so I know what we were told.

What were they saying? No, the plan was whenever he got the ball, get as many people around him as possible. Because if it was one-on-one, he'd kill you. Really? It's like messy now. You can't just mark him. And he's very difficult, because if you've got...

You can't then go, well, we'll put three players on him because then you're outnumbered everywhere else. But he was so good. I mean, he was, like, a different game. It's like Messi and him, for me, the two players that are my life, I didn't really see much of Pella, only caught the end of his crib.

But in my lifetime, those two, they do stuff that's impossible. And they were so similar, you know, diminutive, left-footed, Argentinian, just so creative, just wonderful. and they beat people. I mean, his goal. And the pitch was like a cabbage patch.

It was so bad that pitch and bumpy, because they'd had problems with it. So how he did that little bit of skill on the halfway line, I'll never know. Was it clear? You were at the other side of the pitch. I didn't see it. I mean, for people who don't know,

I was a goal hanger. He basically, he hit it with his hand. I remember watching it at the time. I think people will know that one. I'm sure you don't have to say. During the match, it wasn't like, he's done it with him. It looks like he might have done it with him.

It's clever. He says that he said to his teammates, they weren't reacting. He says, come and hug me. Probably, yeah. Because otherwise the breath won't give it. Yeah. It was mad because I definitely know the linesman saw it. Really?

He admitted it. He did a book on this whole thing and he was interviewed and he said, I was pretty sure that he unboarded it, but I just didn't have the nerve. I thought, oh, cheers. Did you get to know Maradonna? Yeah, I did a document. with him. Louis Theroux-style documentary.

Look out. No, I didn't do it like that. But it was the most... I'd spent three days with him. It was mental. I mean, he... What period was this? No, this is long after he's finished.

But was he all right? For people who don't know, substance abuse issues, weight abuse issues, and all sort of a dictation. He was a complicated guy, wasn't he? But honestly, spending two or three days with him,

I don't see how it could be any other way. Everywhere, it was like, you know, the Monty Python thing film where in Life of Brian where they're following the Messiah and it's a different... I mean that is his life. Everywhere he goes he's like the Messiah.

In fact if you've been to Naples, there's literally shrines... It's incredible. To him from his time now. It's just mad that his life was nuts and I spent a bit of time in him. But he was also lovely. Really great guy. Fun.

Thoughtful. And he was... You got him to... In fact, I saw a clip from this I think and you got him to confess or admit to the fact that it was with his hand. I did. I remember thinking, how would Louis do this? No, you didn't. I don't think you were doing these stuff back then. Oh, you would have been? He said, after the game, as we know, they said, did you, how was the goal scored? He says it was a little bit of the foot of Maradona, a little bit of the head of God. But then of the goal of the century, do you know his quote about that?

He said, I don't think I could have done it against any other team because they all used to you down. And then of the English side, they are probably the noblest in the world. Like he was like, why aren't they fouling me? I get that. I get that. We're just, we're just terribly good chaps. I mean, that's, maybe he's just trying to be nice. Yeah, maybe he's just trying make it up. It's not like, oh, they could have fouled him. They just didn't know what was coming at them. I think Fenwick would have fouled him because he definitely was not too nice. But he'd already had a yellow card. So otherwise, I think he would have sized him down. But he, but he'd, you know, But I get what he's saying.

We're not a team that just goes out like kicking people, like some would in those days. In those days, because you needed to commit seriously, you know, grievous bodily harm to actually get even a yellow card back then. Really? Yeah. It felt like that to me when I was being kicked anyway. You mentioned Messi. For you, he's the standout player of his generation, of your lifetime.

I never thought I'd see a better player than Diego. and I'm not sure he might not necessarily be a better player but he's lived better therefore he's had greater longevity and I think you have to take that into account I mean I just can't explain how good he is because he does stuff that I

I mean he'd do four or five things in a game that I wouldn't have done in one game in my entire career and I play you know at the top he plays like he's watching himself from above take away all the goals and the dribbles and stuff his passing and his vision.

I just don't know how it's humanly possible. It's just bizarre. But I just got so much time for him. He's given me 20 years of joy watching him. What about Ronaldo? Christiana's incredible footballer. They're matched together, aren't they? They are, but they're different.

They're different. And I always feel bad because people have a go at me because they say, oh, you don't like Ronaldo. It's not that Don't like Ronaldo. I absolutely think he's an incredible footballer. But you can't, there's no argument about who is the better footballer. Just anyone that understands the game will see that. But I've got so much admiration for Cristiano

because he's, you know, he's so driven and his career has been so successful and he scored so many goals. He's brilliant. And in many years he would, you know, he'd be the. best player of his time. But the fact that he's actually put in the same breath and lots of people do make the comparison is a huge compliment to him, really, of what he's achieved because he hasn't got the ability that Messi has. No one has. But it's not an insult to Ronaldo to say that.

Do people get annoyed about that? Ronaldo fans, yeah. And Ronaldo gets annoyed. You know, he doesn't speak to me anymore. Really? No, he used to be, you know, he used to get on the right. And then suddenly I, you know, I was interviewed or something and said, you know, who's the better player? Well, well, messy. And then he doesn't like you anymore then. We, we, we, how's your energy?

You're right, because a couple more things I wouldn't mind. I'm good. Can I have a pee? Yes. So, that's good, because I'm old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can, you can. It'd be better if you did it in the bathroom, though.

I'm not going to do it over the microphone. Because otherwise we have to bring a mop in. Oh, we could chill. I could chill on the picture. We could talk about that when you come back. It's funny. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything,

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Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash louis. That's Shopify.com slash louis. Should we deal with the, what do you even call it? What? When you befouled yourself on the pit. Shit myself. Shipmyself, Gate. Yeah.

Shitgate. Well, shitgate didn't really come to light. Well, it did at the time, obviously, but for about 20 years. No one seemed to know. Obviously, my teammates knew and family. I did tell family, but I was interviewed about 20 years later. And the last question was, do you know, there's a rumour that you, you know, you had an accident on the pit.

in Italian 19. I told the story and then it sort of went viral. I mean, it was the opening game of the World Cup in 1990.

We were playing in Caliuri and I hadn't very well overnight and my stomach was off. I don't know what it was. Food poisoning, was it?

I don't think it was probably food. It might have been or a bobby, it might be nerves or something. I don't think so. So we go out on the pitch and I didn't tell Bobby

because I wanted to play, you know? And then I started cramping up again, about half an hour into the game, and I thought, but I lasted till half time, and I ran in the loo and I'll go there. So then I'd go back out for the second off, thought I'd probably be all right now,

and then about 10, 15 minutes into the second off, just start cramping up again. I'm thinking, oh my God. And the ball goes out to their left-hand side. So I'm running out there, and I thought, well, I might get this, and I slid to try and tackle. And as I slid, I relaxed, and it just went, whoosh.

And I'm on the pitch like that, and I've gone, oh, my fucking God. I'm shoveling out my shorts, and I'm doing like a dog. You know, a dog who's wiped his ass on the grass. And then there's a brilliant clip because after I'd spoken about it, obviously they found the footage of it. And it's quite obvious what's happened if you say. I think I've seen the stills on the way. So there's a bit where Gary Stevens, the right back, comes up to me and he goes,

you're right, Lynx, I went, and I went, and you can see, look at me over my shoulder, and I go, I'll shit myself. Did it not show on your shorts? Well, thankfully we had blue shirt, dark blue ones, thankfully. And I'm trying to shuffle it out. And the good thing was it had rained, so I'm wiping it all on the grass. Quite hygiening. Then after that, I thought, right, carry.

So I carry on playing. I did find a little bit more space after that, fun enough. Nobody marked me too tightly. So anyway, so I'm playing and then with about 10 minutes to go, Bobby Robson took me off. And every ground in the world, right, almost every ground in the world, the dugout is by the tunnel where the dressing room was, except for Calgary, which is on the opposite side.

So I go off and I have to sit on the bench with all the players. and I sit on the end and you can see them gradually just sliding away in the chairs just sliding along oh God I was humming it was

do you know what I got back I went back into the dressing at the end of the game got them dressed in the toilet and they had you know where they put the brush thing I hid my kit in there

because I was too embarrassed to take it back out did you so I just like to apologise to the groundsperson who ever found that that stinking kit hidden under the thing because I was so impressed. Yeah, it was hellish.

But it's quite funny now. Yes. It's quite funny now, but at the time it was actually pretty grim and smelly. I also like the idea that it remained a kind of secret or a rumor circulated. And then now it's become a calling card. I know, what a fall. You know, having had your story footballing career, you went on to. to become a broadcaster at the highest level,

filling the shoes of legendary BBC presenter, Deslinem. And I remember that takeover and thinking like, oh, Carrie, he's no, he's no Des. No, definitely wasn't. Which maybe at the beginning you weren't, but now looking back. It was funny, you know, when they, because Des left for ITV,

and I'd gone in and I wanted to present because I just looked at other sports like cricket with David Gower and tennis with Sue Barker, and they had like people that had, played their sport at the top. And I thought, football might need that. Maybe I can do that

and I'll get greater longevity. But anyway, so I'd been presenting football focus for a couple of years because Steve Ryder had left. And then it was 1999, I think. And on Tuesdays,

we had our football focus production meetings at lunchtime. And I drove into, you know, the White City, into the car park and there's the guy on the gate.

And the guy on the gate goes, Gary, he said, terrible news, isn't it? I went, what's that? He went, Des Linem's gone to I2B. I went, oh, has he? Oh, and I think I was the only person in the country that was quite happy.

He went, yeah, he said, who do you think will get the job? I said, well, I better find out, I don't I? Better find out. Yeah, so it was tough, tough shoes to follow. But he was also, you know, having done punditry alongside Des a little bit while I was learning the craft, incredibly useful. Well, you have a similar, just very natural, relaxed, I'm barely presenting, presenting style, informal.

We should reflect on the fact that your parting from the BBC was much written about. Yes, it was a listen. I remember the best thing to say about this, just as an overall observation, is that you'd taken to Twitter with some alacrity, as it was then, X as it is now, and weren't shy about airing opinions,

which you viewed as humanitarian opinions. The BBC and some newspapers and presumably others viewed it as political, a spicy political commentary. The two standout moments, one was a comment that compared government policy on migrants to Germany in the 30s. Language not dissimilar to that used in Germany in the 30s, which it was, I think, an accurate state. That got people riled up.

Yes, it did a little. And it was, in a sense, the footballing metaphor would be, I guess the BBC gave you a yellow card on that one? Yeah, I was due one. Was that the moment when they suspended you from... That was when they took me off the show, yeah. I think it was an overaction on their part, and their subsequent apology at the end of it suggested that one.

was the case. Was that 2023? I don't know, was it? I remember seeing you shortly afterwards. Two couple years ago, wasn't it?

At Wimbledon. And it was like the next day or two days later. And then I was surprised to see how relaxed you appeared to be. Presumably tabloids were like photographers were kept outside the house.

On that particular occasion, I was totally at ease with what I'd done. I thought it was humanitarian. Someone was having a real dig at me and not a very nice manner I responded and I thought I was factually correct some people took Humbridge with it and no one spotted it for a while

because it was only a little reply it wasn't even a it wasn't a main tweet and I was comfortable because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong I don't think it was a particularly scandalous thing to say and also I think it's important perhaps to put into some kind of perspective of how it works in terms of, you know, the balance that you have to have on BBC. So when I started at the BBC, there was no social media. Then I started social media, but there were no restraints on people that worked for the BBC, other than those in news and current affairs.

And then that shifted in around 2019. They completely moved the goalpost and decided that. if you're at the BBC, you can't have any kind of view on anything political, which I'd never really done on the political side of things. Nobody knows who I vote for. I've never said who I vote for. I've never told anyone to... And I said to them when they change these rules,

I said, I will continue to post things that I feel are important about humanitarian issues. And they're going to... Really, you'll be careful. So I was actually was relaxed at, because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. and then obviously I've got an amazing show of support from the people that I work with Ian Wright and Alan Shearer Ian Wright and Alan Sherer said

well if Gary's suspended for a match of the day we're not going to do the show Yeah I mean Ritey was first and he did it And I was in a restaurant in London Having lunch and got the news that they'd Take me off the show Which I saw on social media They didn't tell me personally first

Which I thought it's a bit strange And the day before I was having a chat We had a little group chat, WhatsApp group chat with Alan and Ritey. And I said, I've got a feeling they might take me off the show. And Ritey immediately, wait. If they do that, I'm not doing it. In solidarity, I'm not doing much today.

And I was like, it was like a real wow moment. I just, because I didn't ask them to do that. I would never ask them to do it. I didn't expect them to do that. But, you know, it was just an amazing. Then Alan followed. And then there was, you know, Micra and Germain. And I just thought, this is just so much.

mad for just one like little reply to someone, everything that's happened. And then with, you know, they, you know, I had a conversation before that lunch with the BBC saying we want, you know, you've got to apologise. I said, I don't think I've got anything to apologise. I'm not going to do it. Who do you talk to in that moment? Is it Tim Davey and-Dave? It was Tim and Charlotte Moore.

They were the two that were involved in it. And I get on well with both of them. I like both them. I understand the pressures that come in. So they said, we want you to apologize. Yeah. the BBC's problem in this and I understand what it happens I think they're so obsessed with trying to placate or appease or keep happy the you know the daily mail type newspapers

and they're doing that to people that would get rid of the license fee in a heartbeat they just don't want the BBC to because they're competitors to the BBC and then you know from them asking from you know for me to apologize they end up apologising so Fast forward, what, a year or a year and a half or so, and you posted an Instagram story or shared an Instagram story. That was totally different. That I felt bad about. From a group called Palestine Lobby, which said Zionism explained in two minutes

and featured an emoji seemed to be an illustration of a rat or a mouse. Yeah, which I didn't say, obviously. I mean, I don't think anyone actually believes I would have posted that if I'd see it. Which was pointed out to you is an anti-Semitic insults referring to language used by not. Obviously, German to characterize Jews. Yes, which, you know, obviously I learned about that pretty quickly after that. But that one I felt bad about because that was my mistake. That was my mistake.

Because, you know, it was not with intent, but I could see why some people would be upset by that. So that I felt bad about and was happy to apologize, which I did. But I think by that stage, I think we're like a marriage with the BBC. We've been together for a long time and it was starting to, to, to, to, to, run out of love for each other. But I'll always love the BBC. It's an amazing, amazing corporation. So that sped up the departure.

At that point, the curtain came down. Yeah. I was going anyway, but we just brought it forward. I thought it seemed to be the sensible thing to do. I remember reading a column in the Times where they said, BBC must stand up to brazen Gary Linneker. Did you read that? I don't read that. Because the Daily Mail obviously has a...

You've got to remember that the news... And the telegraph as well. In the centrist papers like Times sort of right leaning or centrist, when they've got the knives out, it's different. And I want to share this with you because it gave me pause. It came from someone who sometimes works for the BBC, who professes to love the BBC. And he wrote, to get the job, he, meaning you,

gave assurances about his commitment to the impartiality of the BBC. That's not true, though. And he said, it's an interesting, he said, he signed up to impartiality as stated and gave repeated undertakings, he would honour it. He then serially and brazenly betrayed his word. Who said that? Matthew sighed.

Well, Matthew sighed. He's clicked by his knee. So I understand why he said that, but he's wrong. Because obviously, as I explained before, when you join the, there was no such thing as, there was no such thing as social media actually when I started. So that's obviously nonsense. Impartiality only applied to those in news and current affairs. And then as social media started to change, the BBC changed their guidelines.

And their guidelines, it's not in your contract. There's nothing in my contract. So he's wrong. He's fundamentally wrong, Matthew. I'm sure he'll apologise when I see him next. Do you know him? I know him, vaguely, yeah. And I'm sure he apologised, but he probably didn't know that.

And I think I was always trying to be sensible. Obviously, you know, some people would disagree with that, and that's fine. But I never, ever said what Matthew Said said. I'd never heard that actually before. I didn't. Really? No, genuinely never, because I don't really read them. And social media was interesting because it came along and people said,

when did you start having these views? And I went, well, probably always, but suddenly you've got a platform to share them in hindsight. Would I do it differently? Don't know. Don't know. Probably not. Probably not.

Well, you wouldn't share that Instagram story. That was just, that was a mistake. That was, you know, that was obviously I didn't see that. Otherwise, I would not have shared it. And I've, you know, I've made that very clear. And I don't think anyone seriously, even the haters, think that I did that on purpose. I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid.

It felt like you represented something as well. You know, at a time when, for whatever reason, whether it's partly social media or the times we live in or some sort of backlash against perceived wokeness that you were the avatar for a kind of rich guy liberal virtue signalling, right? Yeah. Because it always come out.

Highest paid BBC presenter, Gary Linneker, out of touch, smug, you were like a scratching post. Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't take much notice of it, it doesn't bother me because I hate is going to hate. However, if you're in the public life, there will always be a percentage of people that just don't like you. They don't know you,

but they'll decide that there's something about you that they don't like, and they'll label you with things that you've just said, like virtual sign and stuff like that. It'd be a lot easier not if I didn't care about stuff. But unfortunately, I do. I wonder if, you know, I've increasingly... sort of disconnected from social media. Me too.

Because I feel like in the end you're sort of just throwing red meat to your followers who already agree with you. No, I totally agree with you on that. I've thought about that a lot. And I don't think it makes any difference. Although people will say otherwise, you know, I've stuck up with people in Gaza and stuff and, you know, Palestinian people

and saying it really does make a difference. Because silence, silence is, you've also got to wrestle with that if you decide not to say something. So ultimately, the only, I don't think I can influence anyone, but I have to live with myself. And at the end of the day, if I can go look myself in the mirror and think that I've done something right rather than not do anything at all, that's important to me.

And also I would never be critical of anyone that doesn't say anything. because the only person you can control is yourself. And I've had these thoughts, you know, a lot of time about social. I mean, I don't bother with X anymore because it's just toxic nonsense. When did you stop? Two, a couple of years ago, probably. Before that, you were very prolific. I was, yeah, I loved it.

I enjoyed it. You used to be able to have conversations and have fun with people. I didn't know about it, possibly. Well, if I was, I managed to stop the addiction quite easily, so I suspect not. But it was fun. You sent 50,000 tweets apparently. A day.

On a good day. Yeah, no, I would expect. Is that possible? That was the data that my team came up with. I have no idea. 50,000. Would you be just there? Over what, 12 years.

Is that that man? Is that a single man thing, do you think? Like, well, I'm a lot on my own. I'm not married. I've been single since 2016. So I've been single for 10 years, eight of which there would have been on my, own sitting at home so maybe. But now I've weaned myself off it very easily. I mean, I've

still got my ex thing and I will, if someone asks me like the charity thing or promote one of our podcasts or a new podcast or an episode and I just automatically do. But how are you enjoying bachelorhood? I like being on my own. I'm fair, I've got so accustomed to it now and being slightly selfish but unanswerable to anyone. Are you just alone in a big house? Like a character You're in a film. Just you and a dog. Me and a dog. But I, my boys are always round.

I mean, there's very, very rare. Do you wonder room to room like Bonnie Tyler in Total Eclipse of the Heart? No. Carrying candles. No, but it's an odd to, it's like a Hollywood legend. In my old football shorts. In your football shorts. Not the ones that I chat in.

Not those. But, no, I'm all right. I'm fine. Don't worry, Lou. You like your own company. I'm absolutely happy on my own. I go out. What about romance?

No, I think I'm done. I don't know, you never know, but I think I'm... No. I don't know. I just can't. I'm not buying that. I can't imagine actually living with someone again. What about physical needs?

You get to a certain age where it's so much effort. Just to bring in a winch and a cream. Yeah, and a big blue pill. Really? Yeah, I don't know. It might change, but I, you know, I love women's company. And I've got a lot of friends. friends that I know

I go out to dinner with and I love it the social media what do they call like Raya do you know about Rea that's a dating app It's a dating app

for like the high end clientel well one of my boys is on it actually so Mike still picks you up when you're whispering but you wouldn't that wouldn't be a road you go down it must be tough though

for as famous as you are like National Treasure No I wouldn't know That's a headline I'm not honestly Would that be a headline in the mail Gary Linnaker spotted on

Devinan. On Rea, not the goalkeeper. Caroline forgot to feed his dog. I made a footballing joke. Not the goalkeeper. Hey, yes, very good. Goldkeeper 4? Well, he used to be Brentford, and now he's Arsenal.

Correct. Yeah. Well done. I think, look, how are we going to coast out on something a little bit more meaningful? You know, podcasting is your latest field of... Have you ever done one? Accomplishment. I'm thinking of going to...

into it. You know, it's been remarked a lot that you've, you're outstanding in, well, football, then broadcasting, now podcasting. You make it seem quite effortless. You could almost say that in the same way that you would stick your leg out and score a goal. Yeah. You should have stick your leg out in other fields and score metaphorical goals, right? And, you know, the odd own goal along the way, but that's life. It's life. What's the secret? Like, I think really there's a podcast. I mean, is it, obviously, Like service. This is a good, very successful podcast.

Service is like that you've got, you seem to have a knack for having good people around you as well. Is that part of it? Definitely. We got in early and we got lucky with obviously one or two of our. The first ones were. The first one was with me and Danny Baker. But then after that.

Behind closed doors. And then we. Was that an always on as they call it? No. No, we were just dabble. We did two or three series. Was it during lockdown? It started.

It started before that. It's about 2016-17. And what was the premise? It was footballer meets footballer fan. And so it was different stories and letters, people sending in questions and stuff. We thought something in this did quite well. We got a book deal. And then Tony, my business partner at the time, and there's three of us now, but at the time it was just Tony and myself.

Tony, what's his son? Tony Pestor. And he was in a book shop looking for a World War II book, because he's a massive World War II officiado. And he said four of the top ten books or something were World War II books. And he thought, well, he said, I'm going to find a podcast about World War II. Couldn't find one. He said, why don't we do a podcast about World War II?

We'd always just done sport. He was working with me at the BBC sport years ago. And he went, yeah, yeah. And we ended up getting James Holland, Tom Holland's brother, who does the rest of his history, and Al Murray, the comedian, who's absolutely wacky. about, knows everything about World War II and that's still going to this day. It has World War II Festival

which we have a late summer every year. It's hugely popular, does really well and from that... What's it called? It's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk. So then had the idea of James' brother, Tom Holland, to do

one on all history and Tom we took months to try and find his partner to do it with and in the end I think Tony sat him to I said, if you were in a pub and you're with all your historian mates, who would you want to sit next to? He went, Dominic.

And I think we can say the rest is history. It's the biggest part in the world. Wow. It was announced by Apple recently. Wow. It's extraordinary. And then from there we branched out with politics. With Roy and Asthma.

We had the idea of getting one for one. Our neighbours over the corridor over here. Yeah. And that became a huge hit as well. well. So politics and then we branched out from there and now we've got, you know, classified and football. So, crazy. I know. It's an amazing business. And do you know what? You know, we talked about the things, didn't we? The football and some of the politics and all the things that I've had in my life where it's nearly all wonderful and great and people are always nice. But there's always some people want to have a pop at you.

Yeah. But with the podcast thing, so I may everywhere I get stopped. Oh, I love the rest is entertaining. I love the rest of the history is amazing. Oh, I love the rest of his football. And it's like you're sometimes waiting for the butt or, oh, I hate you or don't like your boy. Because people listen to it because they enjoy it. It's not, you know, it's different from other things where you're on the BBC and they, you know, they might love football, but they might not like you. Whereas if it's a podcast, you're not going to tune into somebody that you don't like.

That's right. So. That's the upside. And the downside is we have less of a shared culture. We have less of a public square. because people can opt out or opt into whatever they want. But the good side is that you're not really exposed to people that you necessarily wouldn't want to hear from.

No. How involved are you? I do four podcasts a week myself, so three episodes of football and one Spanish football. I don't go in the office every day. Tony and Jack, Jack Davenport Run, they do all the work. You know, I'm basically like I was.

My whole career, my whole career, I let everyone else do the work and then get all the, I get all the praise at the end of it. It's actually the same as my football crew and broadcasting crew. Do you online about the box, go on. You know it. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about.

I think I was, you know, I was born to be in the box. I became reasonably good on the box and I'll soon be in a box. Is that a way to finish a podcast? I should have a whistle. Beep! Actually, the filter. It's the long whistle blow that signals it's the end of the game. It's not like stop play for a free kick or something.

That was the end of extra time. No penalties. Okay, that was a footballing metaphor. Do I know anything about football? I'll leave that to you to decide. I do want to apologise to regular listener, Jack Grealish. I don't know if Jack's a listener. Or a watcher, indeed. I would love it if he were. I'm a fan of his footballing.

I think I said, bring Jack on, and then he runs around in circles in the box, and then loses the ball. He might have done that once, and so obviously he doesn't normally do that. Obviously, he's a brilliant footballer. He's a joy to watch, and he's got enormous calves. The production team would like you to keep a positive channel open to Jack, just in case he'd like to come on the show. I read that, but nevertheless, I endorse that. I would love to talk to Jack. Him not getting nerves, Millie's written, meaning me. Do I get nerves when I'm playing or broadcasting?

When I'm playing football, I get nerves. I used to do a Monday night game with the lads. Milly found that funny. That's odd. That wasn't a joke. Me and the other lads would get together for a kickabout. I'm not carrying it off. I found that I was out of the, say, 30 or so of us who took part maybe 20 or 30,

I'd be in the bottom five percentile. Like, I was the worst. I was the worst one. And you would say, well, hang back. Like, just defend. That's not that difficult. But I found myself getting the urge to surge forward. It was awkward.

My ambition and competitiveness was in conflict with my capability. and so it was kind of awkward. And it's also like it's a horrible thing when you look back and you see someone with the ball look up to think, am I going to pass to you? And then they don't pass to you. And you're like,

I know why you're not passing to me because you think I'm just going to lose the ball and you're not wrong. So I would get nerves on the pitch there a little bit. I get nerves in general. Anything live? You may have seen. I did Saturday night live in the UK

a few weeks ago. And I did up a cameo. I wasn't the host. But it is, as the title suggests, live. And I had two lines, only two. And I was playing myself. I was doing a cameo as Louis Theroux. Not too much of a stretch, you might think.

But there is something about that moment before, in fact, the moments leading up to when you go on air and feeling anything could happen. You could blurt something random, shit your pants. get the lines wrong anyway people said it was quite good it was on Sky if you're interested I haven't actually watched it yet did you see it

I'm asking Millie Millie said it was good in a kind of non-committal tepid way she said it's genuinely good with no enthusiasm what needy me if it's not unqualified

enthusiastic endorsement then it's a punch in the face. That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Maisie Williams, the production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify.

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