The Louis Theroux Podcast - S8 EP2: Marco Pierre White discusses his rift with Gordon Ramsay, retiring from cooking, and having lunch with Margaret Thatcher

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Louis is joined in the Spotify studio by celebrity chef and enfant terrible of the culinary world, Marco Pierre White. Marco tells Louis about his complicated history with Gordon Ramsay, the moment he walked away from his three Michelin stars, and dining out with Margaret and Dennis Thatcher.      Warnings: Very strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    Instagram Video: McMarco, Marco Pierre White (2026)  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUNvNxOjVnW/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet⁠     Art Film: Andy Warhol Eating a Hamburger, Jørgen Leth (1982)  ⁠https://channel.louisiana.dk/video/jorgen-leth-andy-warhol-eating-hamburger⁠     Book: The Devil in the Kitchen, Marco Pierre White & James Steen (2006)  ⁠https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-devil-in-the-kitchen/marco-pierre-white/james-steen/9780752881614⁠     Book: White Heat, Marco Pierre White (1990)  ⁠https://www.waterstones.com/book/white-heat-25/marco-pierre-white/9781845339906⁠    Book: Humble Pie, Gordon Ramsay (2006)  ⁠https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/humble-pie-gordon-ramsay?variant=32544979517518⁠     TV Show: Hell’s Kitchen (2005-present) - ITV  ⁠https://www.itv.com/watch/hells-kitchen/1a5021⁠     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Researcher: Mark Maughan  Editor: Tom Fuller  Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify   ⁠www.mindhouse.co.uk⁠   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux podcast. My guest today is world-renowned chef, Restorateur, and one-time culinary Enfant Terrible, Marco Pierre White. In 1995, Marco became the youngest chef ever to be awarded three Michelin stars, Michelin. After training under iconic chefs Albert Rue, Pierre Kaufman and Raymond Blanc. All of those names will be coming up, so pay close attention. They're all legendary. There's that word again, mark it off your bingo card.

Figures from the London restaurant scene of the 80s. A kind of French invasion. The British invasion was a rock thing. I'm getting off-peased. With his rock star looks, high-profile relationships, and famously volatile reputation, Marco also became an unlikely celebrity figure, regularly appearing in the tabloids during the 90s and early 2000s.

He is often credited with transforming British fine dining and has been dubbed the first celebrity chef in a lineage that went on to spawn figures like Jamie Oliver, friend of the pod. Over the course of his career, he trained a generation of other chefs who would go on to become household names including Gordon Ramsey, maybe you've heard of him, and Heston Blumenthal. In 1999, Marco retired from the kitchen and relinquished his Michelin stars, Michelin, transitioning to franchise businessman and brand ambassador,

and TV personality, featuring on Hell's Kitchen and Master Chef. I wanted to speak to Marco because he's a genius. I've actually never eaten any of his food. I bought one of the cookbooks. It looked complicated, so I didn't make him. any of them. But I did watch a lot of his old programs. And I got deep into the mind of the mysterious Master of Mayhem. That just all started. They all started with Em. It doesn't really even describe him. Anyway, it was a thrill because he is at the apex of his craft. Not now. He

doesn't really cook that much anymore, but he definitely represents something in the culture. We recorded this conversation in February at Spotify HQ. Marco joined me to promote his 20-year partnership with P&O cruises, which culminates this August with a dedicated anniversary cruise. So if you enjoyed the chat and find Marco interesting, I definitely did, you might want to go on a P&O cruise. They're not paying me to say that. That was a freebie.

A quick warning, this conversation contains the strongest of language. You know what that means, Millie? begins with a C. Ends with a T. It's not cat. Should I keep going? I think I said it a couple of times. And then I got comfortable with it,

and then we listened to it back and it's like, why does Louis keep dropping the C bomb? So we've pulled it right back. All that and much, much more coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything, which is why you should lean on Shopify.

With tools to design an eye-catching website that reaches customers, Shopify is the ultimate business partner with a built-in support system. And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand. There's hundreds of templates for you to use. Shopify even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing. See why businesses like Jim Shark continue to trust Shopify, sign up. up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash louis. That's Shopify.com slash louis. You're quite big on the socials at the moment. I don't do it. My son does it.

Does he? I wouldn't know how to. I've never sent an email in my life. I've never said it a fax. Seriously? No, I write letters. You're going viral at the moment for eating McDonald's hamburger. Did you know that? That's not a crime. I didn't say it was. It's just the expression is on your face It's the way you said it It's well it's only what Andy Wall did years ago Yeah So I thought I'd try one out

What did he do that was similar to that? Exactly the same without the Heinz Did he? He ate a hamburger on a video A McDonald's yeah Really But do you like McDonald's? I think everywhere has a place Doesn't it? Look, how could I say

You obviously dine out lots Do I? I guess you do not really Okay once a week. Maybe. Twice. Once.

How many times you become disappointed? You have to answer. The one thing about McDonald's, you know exactly what you're getting. It's as simple as that.

And I think what's interesting about McDonald's is you go to a pub now and a burger is 1820 quid. You look at

that burger you've had for 18, 20 quid plus service. discharge. You look at what McDonald's gives you. The way my brain works, I start to look at the construction of a McDonald's. Yeah.

I look at that. And what I find fascinated about McDonald's is they feed 1% of the world's population every day and they deliver consistency. If you came to my house, I'd be stressing and by the way, who knows it could even happen? I'd be stressing about what am I going to feed Marco?

If you were a civilian and it was lunchtime, I'd say, I'm making myself a fish finger sandwich. Would you like one? I'd love one. Would you? Well, it works, doesn't it? It's delicious. Let's... I'd grate a little cheese on it.

I'd grill the fish fingers. I don't know about cheese. I used to put some bourgeoisin on there. I don't know if that works. You know about cheese on the fish finger sandwich. Can I say something? Please. The truth is, as long as you enjoy it.

Really. That's what's important, isn't it? Well, yes, but then if you didn't enjoy it, I think I'd... But I just ask for no borsan. Really? I'd ask for... I'd normally put some cheddar on it, really. I suppose it's sort of like a fish pie and a bun, really, isn't it?

With breadcrumbs. Yeah. But I do like fish fingers. I think they're fun things. I was talking to someone yesterday about this. You may be one of the... Probably the most... In your field, the most celebrated guest we've ever had.

I mean, we've had some illustrious guests. But you were a generational... talent. Anthony Bourdain, a friend of yours, once said, he single-handedly changed Britain's culinary destiny of you. You absolutely transformed the landscape that you went into, and you came up obviously from Leeds, working class background in a council estate. I'm just curious, for people, for the general public who won't have had the chance to eat at one of your restaurants, what was it that you did and how were you able to do it at that moment in the culture? Could you summarize how it was you transformed the landscape?

Well, that was Anthony's opinion. The world that I entered was the old world. It was Escoffia's world. I saw the tail end of it. And then I saw the beginning of the modern world. And I started my career at the hotels in Georgian Harrogate. which was very blue collar. It sounds quite, I read your book, and it sounded grand as well, though, in its way. It was the most beautiful contradiction. Like my chef, in one hand he held the feather,

and in the other hand, he held the hammer. It was extraordinary. So... Stephen, what is his name? Stefan Wilkinson. Stephen Wilkinson. He should have set the template for the abusive chef, that you were then later on characterized as, and then Gordon Ramsey and others.

He said he used the word, forgive my language right now. He said he used the word cunt like it was your Christian name. But you know, on the 20th of March, 1978, at 6pm, my chef de party, which means head of a section. He said, Marco, the first thing you have to learn about service is service is service is service. service. And no one ever says that anymore. What does that mean? That's what I said. What does that mean, Michael? And he said, when the chef shouts at you, but he tells you to rum, when he screams, when he pushes you out of the way, you just say, yes, chef. You don't question it. But remember, Marco, it's service. It's not personal. And that's what I learned from a very young age. because it was all about the standards it was all about the food it was all about serving food hot

the world we live in today it's like going to a canopy party small portions everyone eating the same you told what you're eating you're told how to eat it you have a mouthful and then they ask you

did you enjoy it that's not an experience I want why not what's wrong with that okay let me ask you a question you're talking about the modern restaurant culture What's right with it? Because gastronomy... We specialize in small portions.

Food is for sharing. It comes as it... We bring it as it is made. It's not start a main course. It's multiple courses. Yeah. It's like a canopy. What chefs have done today

is that they've taken canopies and put them on small plates. And they tell you it's a course. When you, reading, digging into your story, there's this extraordinary trajectory of success. It reminded me in some ways of reading almost like a Harry Potter or a Luke Skywalker narrative. You have the young, you have the hero's journey from growing up. It's striking that you actually weren't particularly fixated on food as a young man. Growing up in the Leeds,

council estate, your father was a cook, but he didn't really bring his, well, he didn't really invite you to where he worked. He cooked Sunday roasts, but he didn't maybe educate you in food all that much. And so it wasn't as though it was a fixation. You were interested in. interested in hunting and fishing. Nature. And nature, but you didn't, it wasn't like, one day I'm going to be a chef. You just happened to be looking for work. You arrived at this restaurant, this hotel in Harrogate, and then you took to it.

Can you explain what it was? Was it that moment where you thought this is the place for me? What was interesting, without realizing my apprenticeship as a cook started years before. But you didn't realize it. I didn't realize. watching my mother clamp the mince to the side of the table, mincing the meat for the bolanets. Watching my mother cook, the risotto, the spaghetti, as I sat on the side,

bowling chicken, which was almost like a pull-a-pot. Then mum passed, and then I turned to nature. That's where I felt saved non-street corners like everybody else. And what I realised, when I look back on my life, Mother Nature became my surrogate mother. Your mom died when you were six. Didn't she died of a brain hemorrhage after the birth of your younger brother?

And that was, you talk about that a lot. That comes up a lot in your... I think what's important is by talking about her, I keep her alive. But you would have been sick, so your memories of her would be fleeting at best, imagistic. I'm highly visual.

So I remember so much. She was Italian. Had my mother not died at six and died when I was 12, those memories would have been eroded and I'd have had different memories I believe but because my mother died at six

all I had was those memories of that moment but because I'm highly visual therefore my retention is almost better than my brothers because they're not as visual as I am and so I turned to nature I was fascinated by pheasants on the Haywood estate I was fascinated by woodcocks

by fish Look, you know, I used to catch trout with my hands, catching crayfish, but the native ones. So this love of fire with nature is where it all began. And so therefore, in later life, when I went to the Hotel St. George, and I saw my first salmon come through like a silver bar, covered in the sea lice, five pounds a pound it was. I saw the big Cornish cockcrabbs. I started to fall in love with produce. You said that

We mentioned your mum died She was Italian Your father was English He was a chef We said that Am I right in thinking he was a drinker Was he an alcoholic? I don't know whether he was an alcoholic

But he was a product of that world He was a disciplinarian You called him a one-dimensional man At one time I know you were a strange probably For 13 years after you left the north You were down in London Reading between the light

You're actually quite generous about him Not quite. You're actually very generous about him in your book. You extenuate his shortcomings. He was a single father, raising three kids. Your younger brother ended up being put up for adopt. Well, not quite... Well, he was adopted by your aunt and uncle in Italy. So he was brought in town. Because your dad couldn't handle it. I've got three kids plus a newborn. I can't deal with it. It sounded like quite a brutal upbringing that in certain respects, you internalized strategies for survival that served you in good stead when it came to the bullying. atmosphere of the kitchen. What it did was, if I think back and cast my mind through the filing

cabinets of my mind, before I even walked into a kitchen, I'd already learned how to absorb pressure. Abuse? Pressure. You can call it abuse. Why don't you want to call it abuse? Because it's a negative. Right. I like to look at things as a positive, and I look at my father for his strength, not his weaknesses. Yeah. Many fathers would have walked away. From the three boys? So you imagine putting a child, a baby up.

Saying to the, you know, that's, it must have been strange for you saying, there's a baby on now it's gone. It was two, three weeks old, was he? He was, he was. He became Italian, was sent off to Italy. He was 13 days old. My mother died. Change, isn't Craig, and then he became Simone.

Is that right? Well, Simon's his middle name. Okay. So they don't have a word for Craig in Italian, so he'd be. game simoni. Yeah. I look back at my life and those many defining moments

and it's those defining moments that make us who we are, I believe. And had my mother not died, I may not have turned to nature. But when I was very fortunate, yes, I was brought up on a council estate. But at the top of my road was the old Mortlanders and golf course.

I used to walk across that a little bit of the Moretown Golf Course and I was on the Harewood Estate designed by Capability Brown rather magnificent, rather beautiful so from this hell I was living but then I have this

wonderful world where I could escape What was the hell? Been at home with my father having no mother You went to Your first after the Is it the George Was it called the George?

I was with Malcolm and Colin at the box You were with Malcolm and Colin a gay couple at the box tree, extraordinary, Michelin-starred restaurant in the north of England. Two stars. Two stars. Actually, you've mentioned them as being the two most gifted restaurateurs you've ever met. Well, without question.

They were. Firstly, they created an environment which was so magical that I don't know another restaurant I've ever been to which had the magic of the box tree. To have gone there as a boy of 17 years old and to have been exposed to that world. And the methods that Boxtree used weren't conventional. But what they created was deliciousness. It was extraordinary.

But their generosity again was extraordinary. You left them. Again, looking at your story, it's as though there's a series of, I mean, this is crass, apologies, but, you know, they talk nowadays about video games and boss battles, and like there's a series of boss battles, and then you go to the next level, you level up. It's almost like you absorb everything you need to from a certain kitchen and a restaurant, and then you're ready to go on to the next level, right? So in this case, it was having finished after a year or two at the box tree and I'llkely,

you decide to, I think you decide you're going to go down to London. Is that right? Well, that's where everything happened was at the box tree. and they used to always say you never know what the bosses think of you until the day you give your notice and I said to Michael Lawson what does that mean

and Michael Lawson who was the head chef you'd take me out on a Monday because he was a lonely man he was a gentleman the most beautiful soul he said if they don't care for you they just accept your notice

if they like you and respect you and feel that you have a value, they invite you to the Chinese room and they'll offer you money. So I gave my notice. And an hour goes by and I thought, okay, they've just accepted. An hour and a half, maybe two hours, I'm called to the Chinese room and I'm offered more money. And I said no. And I was caught marshals on the spot.

I had to leave from immediate effect. That's how personal the boys were. That's how much they'd invested in me. What's striking as well is that you talked about, you found a new family. And you'd left, by this time, you'd left home, your father either had or was about to remarry. You were estranged from him,

perhaps from your brothers too, I don't know. But this was your new family, and you completely threw yourself in to your work life. You became totally dedicated. Girlfriends came and went, not so interested. Hobbies, pastimes don't. really figure much. You were completely married to the kitchen. I was addicted to, you know,

like people have addictions. Mother Nature, food became my addiction. It became the most important thing. I was so focused on just food. What they said to me was Marco, we knew you would go all the way. You were very different to every other boy that had walked to the kitchens of the box tree. You had almost magic fill out of your fingers. That's how they looked at me. The way I put things on a plate, the way I could coordinate. But remember, I was just replicating what I'd been shown by Michael Lawson. Yeah, but sometimes just replicating accurately, exquisitely is a gift, right?

One of the great cooks I worked for, I was very privileged in life to have worked with some extraordinary individuals. Mac Bourgett held the highest position within the Rue Company. He was the chef tunnel. He turned. But if Albao was away in France, he'd go to assist at Gavroche. If Chef Albem was away, he'd go to assist O Gavroche. If Coffman was away, he could assist Kaufman. Extraordinary man. He gave me the hardest time ever.

The hardest time ever. He would stack the work so high, so, so high. And I had to plow my way through that work and then do us and be ready for service. What kind of thing? Oh, the amount of Muzon Platy would make me do, it'd make it almost impossible.

But because I was ruled and fueled by my fears of failure, by my insecurities, I pushed myself through those pain barriers. I did everything. I did my job. I sat with him just before lockdown. to have lunch with him. And I said to Chef Mark, I said,

Chef, why did you treat me like a C-U-N-T when I was young? Its answer was the shortest. You know why, Mako. You know why. He knew that it was within me to win three stars. Can you subtract the bullying, if you want to call it that,

and the cruelty, if you want to call it, that, from the kitchen and still keep standards? I think what's important? The world is very different today. When I was the boy, so at La Gavroche, you were ruled like everybody else by emotion. And everyone had the same dream.

And that dream was to win three stars in Michelin. That dream was to be part of a three-star Michelin or a two-star. The chef was your pied piper. We followed him. That's what Albert was. Pied Piper. We never questioned him. We followed him. And those were the standards. And that's what we had to deliver at whatever cost. But is, I mean, you talk in the book about Albuhrou jabbing at you with a ladle, for example. I think that's right, isn't it? Or a spoon. And you get pissed off. I've had enough. I think you walk out at that point. I walk out of them. Yeah. I went back, but I walked out on that occasion.

When you look back at, like, on YouTube, I invite listeners to check out many of the old videos. videos of you in the kitchen, I would say heaping invective or behaving. In fact, even in your book you talk about, you know, your willingness to use appropriate language if you felt someone was falling down on the job. But to a dispassionate observer, it might seem cruel. Lots of people didn't understand our world. It's not personal. having worked your way through these kitchens and working at the highest level and picking something up whether it was from Raymond Blanc, Albert Rue, Pierre Kaufman, Nicco Ladini, these legends of the London culinary scene,

then you decide to set out and make your own restaurant at the tender age of what, 27 was it? 26th. 24 when I got harvest. Was it? And so, and it was in South London. I was in South London. I was a 16-year-old or 15-year-old schoolboy.

I remember it was strange because it wasn't considered a salubrious area. You were on the overlooking ones with common. It was at the very sort of beginning of the yuppie era, so I suppose things were changing. And there was this sort of clientele with cash to spend and wanting to be seen fine dining. One of the things you became, perhaps most famous for, alongside the food,

was your willingness to eject people from the establishment if you felt they were being rude. You had a procedure called, You called it the wooch? Well, I didn't create that name, someone else did. The whoosh, really? I never created that. I think that was Jean-Crys, my manager.

But the reality is if customers were rude to the staff, or customers were swearing or making scenes at the table, then they'd first be asked to be quiet. And if they continued, then they were asked to leave. We never asked for the bill. Just please leave. I don't know if you've ever been in a restaurant, and people are behaving badly

and that impacts on your table. Of course, even if they're just very noisy if it's a large party. There was on the news this morning, wasn't it? Some lady, used to be a news presenter, went to a restaurant or a hotel in Kent

and the behaviour of a certain table sport their lunch. Right. But the proprietors or the management never did anything about it. I think you have a duty and a responsibility to look after your clients.

Everyone's there for a special, reason, whatever that reason may be, whether it's a celebration, whether it's birthday or an engagement, who knows? And you have four city boys, if you think of, I think they were called yuppies in the 80s. Certainly were, yeah. And they behaved in a certain way. And to the table next to them wasn't acceptable. So we'd ask them to refrain from swearing or being allowed. They'd always say, look how much money we've spent this evening. They've missed the point. It wasn't about the money. They had to go. Would you come out and do it yourself, or would your matri-D do it?

Sometimes it was myself, or sometimes it was a matri-D. If you say to someone, there's an account somewhere where one of your customers says, you've had a word with them, they say, you made me look like a cunt in front of my wife. No, what happened was, no, what happened was, I'll tell you. So I arrive at the Mirabelle, and marry. This was a bit later, a different restaurant. This was the Mirabelle. This would have been the early 2000s.

And I walked to my office, and there's Marion. The head receptionist crying. And I said, why are you crying, Marion? And she said, the man on whatever table called me a cunt. I said, what table? And what was his name? So I go to his table. I said, good evening.

It's a good evening. I said, do you have a problem? And this is word verbatim. He said, no, why did you ask? I said, well, would you like to step away from the table and we could have a private conversation? He said, no, you can say it here. So I said, my head receptionist, Marion, is in my office crying.

I'm now going to give you five minutes to make the decision whether you wish to apologise or you leave. I'll be in the bar. And he came through to me. And he said to me, why did you make me look like a... I said, I didn't, sir. You did it to yourself.

Have you made your decision? He said, we're leaving. I said, that's the best decision. And the most sensible thing you've said this evening. Good night, sir. Enjoy your evening. In other versions, he says, you just made me look like a cunt in front of my wife and friends,

and you said, that's because you are a cunt. That's not true. That's James Dean. Who's James Dean? He was the writer. Really? There's nothing wrong with poetic lighters. And you know better than anybody, Louis.

I don't have to tell you. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything. Which is why you should lean on Shopify with tools to design an eye-catching website that reaches customers. Shopify is the ultimate. business partner with a built-in support system. And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand. There's hundreds of templates for you to use. Shopify even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing.

See why businesses like Jimshark continue to trust Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash Louis L-O-U-I-S that's Shopify.com slash Louis In the late 80s when you when Harvey's was

was going you specialized in sumptuous food it was I'm trying to do justice to people if it was if you were a singer we could play one of your songs if you were a film maker we'd talk about the scenes from the films maybe as a

as a gastronome or a chef we just have to describe the food a little bit the London Times restaurant critic Jonathan Meads visited Harvey's and he said I had brains on jolet followed by rabbit in longustine sauce

It sounds You must have met Jonathan You must have a few years ago He was an extraordinary man He was the most feared critic Was he? The reality is It was just me being very practical

But the combination of rabbit in Longerstein's, look, the French have done chicken and crayfish, blue eclavis, or la pro, or eclavis for years. It's just one of those delicious combinations which works, the culli of eclavis with the rabbit. It's very delicious. In that era, alongside your extraordinary culinary ability, was the fact that you were very good looking.

I don't know about that. There's photographic evidence to prove it. But I still don't look at myself like that. I look at my children and think they're very beautiful. You were the rock star chef. Ah, yes. And you were in the middle of a lot of attention. Alan Crompton Back comes to see me and says,

Marco, I'd like to do your PR. So Alan Crompton Bat does my PR for me. Did he bring in, is it Bob Carlos? No. What's his name? The photographer. Bob Carlos Clark. Bob Carlos Clark, who's icon.

The iconic images defined your mysterious allure. Well, they captured a moment in time within the world of gas. You were always with a sharp knife looking vaguely murderous, or with a cleaver lurking in front of a door. That was Bob. You weren't just a projection of his imagination. You had those qualities. Well, what happened was.

So Alan Croms was about now, and this is what I say, I always say Crompton Bat and Bob Carl's Clark created the modern day chef they created the celebrity chef the two of them That was you

How was their muse You were the original You were the originator As I say They captured a moment in time The The stars aligned in some way And I suppose

See one of my struggles was the hierarchy of my industry. They tried to suppress me. Who did? All of them. Name names? All the names we've spoken about already. Different ways your mentors, these French chefs based in London.

Like Albaire, for example. Albeiro. Albeiro. Who called you a genius. I, um... Albert was fantastic. He, um... I won my first star, because he was my friend. I want my first star

and no one really felt threatened by one star I remember Alba's saying to me in 89, Marco, don't change your menu don't change it, just refine it and in January you will win your two stars in Michelin. I never, ever, ever changed my menu.

I refined it. But your point was why did you, what was your, they were trying to hold you back. This is, now we're getting to it. Now I win two stars in Mishlan.

Now the hierarchy, they're trying to stop things. It's like, for example... You're getting too big. They're threatened. That's right. But also, I had all the press. Yeah, must have been annoying for them.

All those front covers. They'd worked all their lives. And never... I had more in a year than they'd had in their entire lifetime. And worth saying, you were in your 20s, when you got your... third star, you were 33, the youngest, as I'm given to understand, the youngest person in history

to win three stars. That's right. And the first British chef to win three stars? That's right. I was lucky. One night you were... Go on, but the truth is... Lucky, stop it. Don't, false modesty is not a no, no, no, it's not false modesty. As I said to your producer, success is born out of luck. luck is being given the opportunity it's awareness of mine that takes advantage of that opportunity I knew lots of great cooks Opportunity meets preparation Napoleon said a general makes his own luck

That's true Women loved you You've told a story in the past About being in the restaurant One time a woman Left her husband at the table Came upstairs to find the lavatory She passed you and gave you a look

And you end up in your office together I locked her on the roof Well, that was afterwards What page is that in the book? What took place in the office? What page is that, Lily? You must have it in your notes for me because I want to know. Why is that important?

You keep on giving me page numbers. I could find it, boy, well, you don't need to know the page number. But she described it's 40-ish, full-bodied wearing a low-cut dress. She said to her husband... That's James Steeen again. I think you should sit down with James rather than me. And then you... Is that a true story, though?

It's a true story. It's a true story. Did you actually make... love to the woman. No, I did not make love to her. I don't mean, I mean it in the old fashion sense. I kissed her. Did you? I did. Where? On the lips. And then I, then my phone rings and I excuse myself and I answered the phone and the manager said to me, Makur, the manager, the husband is on the way up the stairs. So I put it on the roof and lock the door and this was February time. She climbed out the window. No, she didn't. That's,

that's another story that wouldn't. It's I locked the door, I locked the door and I, how did you get to the roof? And I sit there because I was on the top floor. Right. Because it walked out like onto a terrace. Right. And I'm telling my office. And this man appears. He said, have you seen my wife?

This must have been a clue for him. I said, and what does she look like? Like if lots of people walking past my office. What a stupid thing that was. And he describes her. And I said, not seeing her mate, sorry. And he disappeared. You probably had lipstick smeared all over your mouth.

I had wiped off. I think I thought. But I didn't have it. Who knows? Who knows? I wasn't looking at myself. And I, I then

I rang downstairs and I said Sean when he's back at the table let me know about 15 minutes later he said Macur he rings me he says Macur the husband back at the table Look I was a boy of 25 years old growing up discovering life

and I let her I open the door and there was a wind-swept lady I think suffering from hypothermia and I said your husband's back at the table I never saw her again. It was a funny story

and it turned into a sad story. I don't think it's sad. The way you said they were so plain if you looked like a child like you were saying I never saw her again. I didn't see her again, Louis. Were you expecting to?

Were you hoping they were turned into it? Before you ask me, I'm preempting the questions, Louie. You thought it was going to lead to a second date? I'm not that presumptuous. But I wouldn't have been surprised or shocked. Did you make the most of it?

We must have been a lot. You weren't a drinker or a drug taker. I know. I will. But you were having fun. I never, I didn't start drinking until I was in my 40s. Why did you start? Well, I gave up cooking.

Yeah. You lost your way a bit when you, you sort of were like, you were like Alexander, you conquered, there was no world left to conquer. You talk about being, having got your third, star and it was like everything went out of the whole 95 I won my three stars

that period of my life was highly creative in one sense but highly destructive in another sense because the amount I had to give was unhealthy what was interesting and I don't know if I've ever spoke about this

is when I retired from the stove I was lost My decision was born out of a very simple thought. I was unhappy being in the kitchen. It no longer excited me. It was conveyor belt cuisine. It was cooking by numbers.

It was all about defending our reputation, defending our position. Winning one star is very exciting. Maybe the most exciting. Within two stars is exciting. Within three stars is exciting. Defending them is very boring. But I came from a world where chef's position was behind the stove.

And that's where I was always behind the stove. And if I didn't touch it with my fingers, I touched it with my eyes with my palate. So I touched every single dish that left that kitchen. Now I'm in a position where I'm doing 100 hours a week And I'm not happy Because now we're playing that defensive game Not that exciting game of creating There's too much at risk

I saw Albeau lose his three stars I saw Koffin loses three stars What was that like I was the man who told Albert He asked me what I knew Really You had the inside knowledge Like you knew for some reason

How did you know? What happened was Gordon Ramsey told me that Gavroche. Gordon Ramsey's father-in-law was a publisher. He obviously knew where the book was being published. So Gordon told me, Albert rang me up and asked me if I knew anything. I said, I've heard one of two things. He said, what about Gavroche? I said, I've been told that you've lost your star, Albert.

Lost one of three. Yeah, one of three. You've lost your star. He said, how do you know that, my God? And I explained why I knew it. And it was true. Did it feel significant? He, of course, no one had ever lost three stars.

Albaugh was the first person to win three stars. Albaugh was the godfather of our world. He was the heavyweight. In England? In the UK? Yeah. In the UK, enormous. And... Did his face do something?

Were you in part? This was on the phone. I found it rather sad that Albaugh had lost his three stars. It's like I found it sad that Pierre had lost his three stars. stars. And I said, a few months later I sat with Derek Brown, the head inspector of Michelin. I said, Mr. Brown, why did Gavroche lose their three stars? And he said to me, I dined there four times last year, and three times out of the four, it wasn't a three-star meal. Did it say it was bad? It wasn't a three-star meal. I said, well, so,

So I'm not enjoying it. I'm fishing one Sunday morning on the test for salmon, and I catch a henfish. And I unhook her and a release her back into the water. And I arrest the pool. In those days I smoked. I had a cigarette. I sit on the bench.

And this little thought comes into my mind. Marco, you're being judged by people who have less knowledge than you. So what's it worth? the following day I contacted Michelin until the 23rd of December 1999 I'll be stepping down from the stove

Robert Reed will be taken over hanging at my apron There's a version where you say I don't wish to be included in future editions of your book Is that in my book by James Dean again? It's been said that you can't review You said it's the conventional wisdom

It's you returned your stars You said I don't want them You can have them back which apparently is not something you can do. The reality is, is by stepping down from the kitchen, they have to take them off you. You've told them. Really?

You've told them. Think about it, logically. I'm no longer going to be in the kitchen. This is in September. The guy goes to Prince in October in those days. And I said, Robert Reed will be taken over. Kind of. Although there's chefs who have multiple restaurants with stars, right?

And they can't be in all the restaurants at the same time. But the reality is, today, see, in the world, the world that I came from, a chef had to be behind his stove to have three stars that's not the case today can we talk Ramsey yes of course we can talk Gordon he said that I mean this is a storied relationship

you hired him he talks about you brutalizing him in a way that he felt he learned from nevertheless he was once asked which living person was this in his biography this is in humble pie I'm sure it's the author It might have been written by James Dean as well. No, and it wasn't James Dean.

It was somebody else. Which living person do you dislike the most? He was once asked. Marco, he's two-faced. He also said, what was the worst thing anybody has ever said to you? There was a situation at Harvey's. We were in full flight in the kitchen. Marco was in the way.

I couldn't get to the steamer. I pushed him out of the way. He elbowed me. So I dropped some red mullet. He said, you're like dog shit. Always in the middle of the road. That's not true. And then there were times when you feel.

He then, there was a famous case where he accused you or someone with you of stealing his reservations book in order to undermine his bookings. But if you read his autobiography. And then he later went on and said, actually, no one stole it, he pretended, or he stole it from himself. He named Markov. That's what he says in the book. Did you value Gordon's ability in the kitchen? Gordon came to me as a young man. He was, I think he must have been about 21 when he came to me. and he worked with me until July 89. So he started in the January of 88.

So he did 19 months with me. I got him a job at Gavroche with Elbe. And so he went to work in Gavroche. And then from Gavroche he went to work for Gis Savoix. and I assisted him and helped him with France because I liked Gordon. He was kind. He worked hard for me and he asked me for a favour and I did that favour. And talented? He's a great technician, is Gordon. A really good technician.

And then he came, then he went to... About artistry. Gordon is, when I say, I always think of Gordon, when I think of Gordon, his plates are clean, they're always tidy. They're tidy. And they're consistent. And that's what it takes to win three stars in Michigan. Great technician, great palate, tidy plates, consistent.

These are interesting facts. I'm not getting the feelings. What do you mean the feelings? Well, did you like him? I like God, yes. You made him cry. He made himself cry. He was chopping onions at the time, Louis.

See, that's trivialising, because he wasn't chopping onions. He weren't there. No, but I've read the story. I don't recall what he'd done wrong, but I monstered him and he lost it. Gordon, this is you speaking. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen. Not true. Buried his head in his hands.

That's James Steens. This isn't even from your book. It's just from a profile in the New York Times. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen, buried his head in his hands and started sobbing. I don't care what you do to me, he said as he wept, hit me. I don't care. Sack me, I don't care.

I was hardly going to sack him. He was leaving the next day. I sued the New York Times for defamation. They accused you of, they kind of cavalierly suggested you were a drinker and a drug taker and you pointed out you and neither. What they said was that I had a well-publicized bout of drugs and alcohol. I'd never taken a drug in my life and I didn't drink. and so if you think

if they're prepared to write that they're prepared to write anything perhaps I created the monster it continues Ramsey the monster who ended up as a TV personality screaming at celebrities on Hell's Kitchen doing to them what I had done to him it's unlikely we shall ever know each other again

I'll ask you the question is that my punch and I wait when I cut I cut No no that is Is that not true That is not true Really? Which bit?

What's true is Gordon cried. And it was his last night or his second to last night. I think it was his last night. And it was highly emotional for him. Did you remember? And I did say to me, I don't care, Mark, he'd just fucking hit me head, whatever. He was very upset. Why was he upset?

It's 30 plus years ago. Do you think that you created the Ramsey persona in some way, that he kind of internalised? I cannot be held responsible for that. I can't be is Gordon is his own creation like I'm my own creation you're your own creation

where we're responsible for our own journeys in life Louis and it's at the end of the day Gordon and I go back let's be honest now we go back 40 years to Gordon and I Are you friendly now? Yes we're doing a TV show together

when the press attacked my son the other week Gordon sent me the most beautiful text So, the Gordon Ramsey, the press wants to talk about is not the Gordon Ramsey I know. Gordon Ramsey, as far as I'm concerned, is a beautiful boy. You got into some hot water, you appeared to possibly...

I say this very hesitantly. Endorse. I don't endorse anybody. I've never voted in my life. Haven't you? No. He is a customer. Of what? of the hotel in Bath Really? Which is called the...

Mudlow. He's a castor, so he comes in, so you like his vibe? You know him? I wouldn't say that I know him. I've been in his company briefly on one occasion, but he's been, when I've not been there, but he's very polite.

He comes across as being very honest. And I think he's very clever. So you're not a political animal, really? No. My fate, look, I used to have lunch with Thatcher when I was a young man. Did you? Yeah. She was special. You actually, it would be you and her and who else?

Dennis. Lord Churchill. Stop it. See, the beauty had been arrested at her. Is everyone crosses your path. What do people get wrong about Thatcher and Dennis? Well, Dennis was very, very good. supportive, I would say. He was kind.

Of her. It's worth of her. Very kind, very understated. Thatcher was always interested in your thoughts, not her thoughts, which I found interesting. What did she like to eat? Straightforward, simple food. But for example, she wants to ask me, one of the questions she wants to ask me,

she said, Marco, when you promote someone into a senior position, what makes you make that decision? She said that. So what was interesting, all her questions were like that. They were very simple.

Her construction of sentence was very simple. What did you say? I said, well, I promote someone into a senior position. They must promote the company, not themselves. And she said, I was sitting here, she said, they must promote the company, not themselves. and then she said, you're absolutely right. She'd never point her finger at you.

She always always always always in the air. Really? She wasn't really, very polite. How's your energy? Are you all right? You're doing okay? You're not thinking I've taken you hostage. What are you implying that I'm suffering from the Stockholm syndrome? It could be.

I read that they were turning your life into a movie. Russell Crow was attached. It started with Ridley. Redley Scott was to direct Yes, so Ridley signs me up And I forget the name of the Nicholas was the screenwriter And I worked with him

And then Ridley brings Ruslin Who'd been in Gladiator Which Ridley directed And so I go to Nana Glenn Because I've been told by Ridley

So I go to Nana Glenn Is that where he lives That's where Russell lives Russell was in Australia. Okay. Something Harbour. You flew all the way to Australia? Yeah.

So I spend a week, ten days with Russell. Just hanging? Wow. And everything I do, he films, everything I say, he films. Really? And then, Ridley and Russell fall out. So now I'm on the fence, and I have to make a decision. Russell or Ridley?

I've just spent 10 days with Russell. His mother and father were very kind to me. They all looked after me and made my stay very comfortable and enjoyable. So I went with Russell. Now I get to know Russell. And then it's time to renew the option. And they want to renew the option.

And I said no. and had time to think about it. I think it's better they make a movie if they want to make a movie on me when I'm dead. Not while I'm alive. Like when I was asked to read my book, The Devil in the Kitchen, and I got to that moment of reading about my mother's life, dying.

I put the book down and I said it's fine. So when you tell me things like you did today, I don't know because I've not read it. Oh my God. So you've given me insight to how simple stories have become fabricated stories but I suppose

people want to make things more exciting, more romantic. Maybe. I suppose it's called poetic licence. So you can't do that with food. Do you get in the kitchen much yourself? I help the boys. I like it. Rudlow? At Rudlow, yes.

So I like going, so... Because you've said that you hate cooking. You're on record as saying that you hate cooking. What? I don't know. I can find it if you like. Oh, I don't care. Maybe it was when you felt burned out by the high-octane cooking of Michelin-Star quality.

I like to cook. I like to teach. I like cooking gravy for Christmas Day lunch. I like making the stuffing at Christmas Day. So on Christmas Day, I always go in the kitchen with the boys and the girls, and then we make the gravy. From the giblets? I do use the giblets. I use the gizzards, the hearts and the liver. I diced them very small. And then when it's away, we put the giblets in at the very last minute. And then we put the turkey fat back into it. So it's a grasse. So it's like a jougat.

So when we make the gravy, gravy's gravy and it's delicious. But when you take the fat from the roasting of the bones, and you pour some of it into the gravy, but you don't mix it in. So it's a split sauce. Like the only way I can describe it, so it's like balsamico and olive oil is split. Yeah. So when you put it over your bird, the gravy runs off, but then it's French-varished with the fat, the grare, which changes everything.

The gras is the most important. Because the flavour's in the fat? There's a lot of flavour in the fat. When you think rendered turkey fat is deliciously good. Do you ever use an air friar? No. Do you? Yes.

They're quite good. And you know that thing where... They're very fast. They're like the sort of Ferrari of the kitchen, aren't they? Sometimes you can get, say you get chicken thighs, and then some recipes call, you remove the skin. You know, what am I going to do with the skin? Put it in the air friar. The skin's delicious. And you can make little kind of chicken skin crisps.

And then at the bottom of the air fry, what do you have? All the fat. Oh, the gras. Yeah, and you can pour that. So keep that. Pop that in the fridge. Pop that in your gravy. You can do that.

Yeah, use it with your potatoes or something. Delicious. Delicious. And the chicken, and the little crispy skin is nice. Chee. My mother used to boil chicken. it was so good with vegetables. But then the skin would be gelatinous and weird.

Because what happens is the skin renders. That temperature, surely. No, because if you think, there's your vegetables, there's your chicken legs, because she didn't, not the breast, just the legs, cut the legs in half with the carrots, with the leeks, with the celery, a bit of garlic, all quite chunky.

And boil that. And simmer. And then at the last minute, she'd throw olive oil on with parsley and bay leaf. And the best bit was actually getting your bread and butter and dipping it in the broth so deliciously good. Wouldn't those chicken legs, the skin would be gelatinous, wouldn't it?

But beautiful. Would you like to eat that? I did, and I still do. You don't like crispy skin? I like both. It's like when I was a boy at the Gavroche, the staff would have a confid cana, and the skin would be soft, not crispy, delicious.

Really? I'll see when fat is cooked to perfection, it's so good. We like all those secondary cuts. They taste much better. Who wants a breast when you can have a delicious thigh? There's still some Michelin in you, isn't there? Even though you saw through the veil, you realized, hey, you can't judge me.

I'm above you. Nevertheless, it has some hold over you. Could you ever see yourself going back? is too demanding. Mishlan has changed. Today, they dish them out like confetti. But you have to say

that Mishlam I've done more for gastronomy than any individual or any other institution in this world. So you have to give credit where it's due. They create dreams for chefs. Thanks so much for coming by. I think the doors open,

that means they're going to kick us out. I think that's a very subtle hilton. I know. I hope you enjoyed yourself. I really did. It was a real honour to have you come by. And thank you for being so generous with your time. And service.

That's what they say in restaurants when the food has to go out. I've seen that. So I'm saying it now to say, we're back. And I hope you enjoyed that conversation. It was a thrill doing it. And specifically to see Marco. There's a lot of emotion there, deep feeling. When he was talking about the box tree and ilkly,

I'm still box tree. I'm far more box tree than I am. Robeshaw, I'm far more box tree than I am. Chlavey, I'm far more box tree. That's quite good, isn't it? You're making him a lot more northern than... That's how he said he's got that deep grumbling. Millie says I'm making more northern.

Hello, he's from the north. He's from Leeds, and actually the more relaxed he got, the more northern he got. I'm far more boxed. I think if you check that. I don't think so. Okay, let us know if you think how good was my Marco Pierre White impression. What was the other thing he said?

He had to tell, was it Al Baru, that he'd lost one of his Michelin stars? You've lost your star. Who have I gone into now? I've gone to sort of Jim Bowen. Don't say the, don't say the J.S. word. you've lost your Michelin Star there's nothing I can do about it how do you know Markov

I've been talking Gordon's got a friend who works at the publishers you've lost your fucking star nothing no I'm getting away no that's not even funny anymore that's just offensive buy a pick with Russell Crow who would play you says Millie

well it's which period does it cover Does it cover the weird weekend's years? Or does it cover the later years? The glory years. Does it cover the wilderness years? That's a joke. They've never been any wilderness years. Which years were you thinking about?

Maybe these are the wilderness years. What do you mean when he started a podcast? He stopped doing documentaries. And he did a podcast. No one wants to see a film about that. Do they? Definitely. Millie's written, we did cut it out,

but he said, you look like Arson Wenger, the skeletal arsenal manager, who's about 100 years old. But then it says, Twilight Years Louis Biopic? Okay, so fair enough. Arsendanger's French, he's stylish and elegant. He's not an unattractive man,

and he has a kind of. They used to call him the professor, did they? and it's a privilege to be told that I look like a 95-year-old French man with a big nose. And no evident body mass. That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Mark Morn, the editor was Tom Fuller, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, the music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows.

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