The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Al Jourgensen | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with musical trailblazer Al Jourgensen for an unvarnished dive into four decades of boundary‑pushing music. Jourgensen walks through Wax Trax’s cash‑on��the‑table sessions, the house‑mix side hustles at Chicago Trax, he unpacks leaving Arista via bankruptcy, reclaiming control on Twitch, and bringing Paul Barker back for what he insists will be Ministry’s final record and tour; the pair compare production habits and trade stories about Timothy Leary’s psychedelic “experiments,” psilocybin‑fueled hangs with Gary Numan, and the grind of touring versus the lure of studio life; they trace the influence of the Chicago scene on countless other artists, and debate writing politics that outlast news cycles; to wrestle with whether creativity comes from a universal signal or something like a digital matrix. https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

They'd come into the A room from the B room with literally a bag of cash. I'd have a 38 on the desk. They'd have like a couple guys with 45s. We'd count the money. I'd do a house mix and they'd go on their way. That's amazing. It was like that. That's amazing.

And he would do Friday experiments on us. We'd shoot up this like new cytadelic that some university had come up with. Okay. Sounds good. I don't think I've ever written a song. I get my songs from the universe. Like, I don't know where they come from. Here we are.

Here we are. We're alive. Finally. We're alive. We're still alive. Who knew? I mean, seriously, think back to Chicago days. Like, who would have predicted you and me would be sitting here right now?

Still making music. Yeah. Still being great. Yeah. I think you're still being great. happy? Are you happy? Big time. You seem really peaceful. I love it out here. I really do. I mean, I love going back to Chicago.

Are you a closet hippie? You're living out in the... I'm pretty much a hippie, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just old hippie. Just do my stuff. Don't cause problems. Don't cause problems. You know? You're going to make headlines. Do the occasional... He doesn't want to cause problems. Do the occasional anti-Trump album and then, you know, just... keep my head low. It's all good. So recently you've been touring with Gary Newman Frontline Assembly? Yeah. Seems like those shows are going really well.

That was so much fun. I mean, I never knew that Gary and I would get along. He's just the loveliest guy. He's total sweetheart. Well, on top of that, but then we found a love for psilocybin together. So the tour went swimmingly.

It's like, here's the question. Do the synth sound better on psilocybin? Yes, absolutely. You hear the phasing? Yes, they do. Yes, they do. I love that. Hoping for the masses is the recent album I was listened to it.

Very, very strong. I'm a huge fan. I think I've told you that in the past. But I just think, you know, somehow you've reinvented yourself 800 times, but you've always been you, which is interesting. I think you're one of the only people that's been able to do that. I'm kind of like a Walmart Bowie.

You know what I mean? I think you're better than that, but I'll let you define yourself. You know, you reinvent yourself, but obviously don't have the bona fetus of Bowie. Sure. But like, yeah, you just keep doing what floats your boat, you know, because otherwise it's boring and otherwise you should, get some kind of consultant job or something, you know.

What gives you fire at this point? Because, you know, we've both been through these weird changes in the music business and now we're into streaming land. Well, the fire for me right now is the finish line. Okay. Because I'm doing it on my own terms, which is nice. That you can get out of like a 40-year occupation and get out on your own terms. and to have Paul Barker back in the fold and to do a final record and tie a final bow on the whole thing

and then do a final tour and really a final tour, not like... Not the wrestling version. Yeah, Slayer, Motley crew, everyone comes back the year later, you know... No, when you say it's the final, I believe you. I'm done, yeah. And it's important that it's done because there's really not many more statements to make.

I think we've reached the point of what we built as a genre. And that's about, you know, after that it's superfluous. I think bringing Barker back in for the last one is going to make it kind of retro, but also really cool that we haven't jammed with each other in 25 years. But there's something about your music that's always got a futurism built in. So even when I listen to stuff, it doesn't, it's hard to explain. You never feel retro to me. Well, thank you.

It's a compliment, but I'm saying is somehow you're able to sort of land ahead. You know, sometimes when you watch an old science fiction movie and they're guessing the future, like you guess the future right. Like, it's scary how accurate you were in guessing the future. You were calling this in the 80s, and here we are. Right.

So you must feel like Nostradamus. Well, it's funny. This is why, like, as much as I hate playing the old stuff live, because, as you know, it's just like becomes tedious. I want to work on the new stuff. I want to expose the people of the new stuff, but the old stuff. But then I listen to like what's going on

and I see the old stuff is current still. That's kind of my point. Yeah, yeah. No one's really beat you at your own game, and I think that's interesting. Well, and that's why we're leaving on our own footing. Yeah. Which is great.

2019 pre-scripture, right? a book I contributed to. Thank you. That was a nice honor. I told the story about the first time I, I'd seen you live, but I saw you in the flesh. I was tripping on LSD in the metro. And I looked up from some sort of LSD reverie,

and there you were, and you not only looked like Satan for a hot second, I thought you were Satan. And I thought, and I knew it was you. It wasn't like I was like, oh my God, it's Satan. I was like, oh my God, Al is Satan. Satan is out. Yeah. So we're forever bonded in that particular way.

But in reality, it's so much the opposite. Everyone who knows me knows I'm like the most chill old hippie dude. Like just, yeah. I don't want the like, you know, this kind of like I'm more like Rivendell and less like Mordor. Okay. All right? That makes sense. It does.

Tolkien all day. 2014 lost gospels, autobiography. Is there going to be more book, or is that your one book? Well, that book was basically pretty weird in the sense that my ex-wife set it up with this journalist that just came by with like two gallons of vodka and put on a tape recorder and just let me go for a weekend. So it's you kind of rambling, yeah. Yeah, I just rambled a bunch of shit. And then they had their lawyers all check it out, make sure they weren't going to get sued, as you know, blah, blah, blah.

And they're like, yeah, this all checks out. And so they put it out. Me personally, I've never read the book. So. Well, I haven't read it either. I'm glad you're telling me because I didn't know the book existed. You're going to have a book soon. Well, I'm working on it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, make sure you do it right. Don't do it. Are you going to do it right? If that's not right, what is right? Are you going to do it right? No, I'm probably, I'm just over it. I'm literally like, I've accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish.

I've done everything I've wanted to do. I've made enough money and this and that. I just want to make sure that this last project, this last tour, this last album is really good. And then, really, I have no problem saying goodbye to this. It's very interesting. None, zero, because, you know, for instance, like live touring. Like I have friends like, you know, Robin Zander or Billy Gibbons or something from Zeezy Top Cheap Trick. They keep playing at 75.

I just saw Rick and Robin the other day. I love those guys. But they still get, it's not for the money. They still get like a rush from playing in front of a crowd. I don't even hear the crowd when I'm on stage. I have no idea if we're living. liked or not liked. Seriously.

I believe you. That's why I'm laughing. All I know is whether we did the show that we were programmed to do, that we've rehearsed hard to do. And if we do that, then I... So, in other words, I don't get like this... I need this rush to come back on stage. I don't even hear it. So, yeah, I don't need that.

And then with the studio thing, I really... really think that we've reached a level of what we've done to where do this last record with some new influences, new old influences with Parker, and then just, I'm happy with that. Because I really enjoy just doing soundtracks and film scores. Am I right? Because I feel we're similar. Do you consider yourself a studio rat first? Yeah, absolutely.

I think that's where both of us want to be. In fact, that's where we got to know each other best was, I was working in one studio and you were working in the next week. We'd come say hi every day. I think if it was up to us, that's all we would ever do is just be in the studio. That's pretty much it. But I don't want to confine it to a ministry structure. So I'd love to be in the studio.

And I own a studio in my house, an SSL place that next time you're, out here, please come to our studio. That sounds cool. And then we'll do some stuff. See what happens with it. Yeah. So I kind of want to dive in here, so bear with me. First time I saw you live was Medusa's, and I looked up to date.

Oh, my God. And I was shocked. Medusa's June 1986. 86, that sounds about right, yeah. You had short, cropped, blonde hair. Yeah. combed back and you had a crescent earring. I remember this very distinctly

and shockingly there's videotape of the show on on Medusa. At Medusa? Yeah, it's like a VHS from the back of the room. Wow. And you guys were set up on some kind of stage. There was maybe 800,000 people there and I was there

and because I was just a young musician, I didn't know anybody. I would go to Medusa's occasion, but I didn't know anybody like I couldn't call anybody, so I bought my ticket and came to see you play. And I'd been listening off the first record and we'll get to that. But the Twitch thing is interesting because that's when you start to make this transition from whatever everybody thought you were going to be to kind of you were on your way to becoming what you became.

Well, whatever I was going to be forced to be. Sure, sure. But I think what's interesting about that is I actually witnessed you at this moment of change. Yeah. If that's a fair word to use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, there was definitely a transition going on there. Right.

Did you, I don't want to necessarily go too much into the heiast of stuff because it's its own thing. We could talk about it later a little bit. But were you signed by Clive Davis? Yes. Absolutely. Up in his second floor office, you had to go up a spiral staircase and sit up there with giant pictures of Janice Joplin and Miles Davis behind him. Yeah. Yeah.

I had my own Clive moments. Yeah, yeah. I understand. It's pretty intimidating. Hello. When you're like 21, 22, you're just like, ah. Yeah. I think, I don't know how you feel about Clive and we can talk about Clive if you want,

but I think it's interesting that he saw your talent, you know, at that age. Like, he wasn't wrong about you. You're a super talented person. He saw that, and he does have an eye for talent. He does have an eye for talent. But what really pisses me off is that, especially during the 90s, or the 80s, I'm sorry. Well, the 90s had happened as well,

but they signed people for their talent, and then they just try and crust that talent by putting them into a mold of whatever is the flavor of the month. So a lot of the stuff that we did that they signed us for wound up on Twitch and Rape and Honey. I didn't know that. Okay, that makes sense. Right, because, but then they signed us for that, but they didn't want to release that.

Then they assigned producers and makeup artists and cut your hair and this and that and buy you suits. They put you through the system, yeah. Right. And I just decided after that record that, nah, this isn't working. So how did you extricate yourself from the Arested deal? I had to go. bankrupt it was it was brutal um that can't be an easy thing to do be like i want out yeah at 22 years old

and you're already like completely jaded and disillusioned to it you had enough success on the first record that i can't imagine they wanted to just let you walk uh they didn't so i had to fight for it but i knew that that's not the paragon and and and you know that i wanted to work yeah within so uh so yeah we I just got out of there and then concentrated on wax tracks to where we had complete freedom. Yeah. And for those who don't know, wax tracks was a localized Chicago label,

but really specialized in this coming type of music but now people call electronica or industrial music. But at the time it was like there wasn't even a word for it, really. Yeah, yeah. And was signing, you know, that's where I first heard Front 242. Front 242, Laibeck, Young Gods. ministry, pale head, homo DJs, all that stuff came out during that period of time.

And I was in the clubs hearing that stuff like literally the day it was coming out. So I was at ground zero of what you were creating with wax tracks. Right, that was a fun time in Chicago. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah. And it would be interesting because I'd come to Medusa, you know, whatever, 19 years old.

And somebody would say, oh, I'll just put out this new track. Yeah, we're just putting out. And it would be like, is it ministry? No, it's some other, you know, there's like 8,000 different names and, you know, and you'd buy the record or usually it was some hot goth girl had the records because I couldn't afford them. So you go over to her house and it'd be like, you look at the records like Hermes Pan, you know what I mean, you had all these pseudonyms. But it was really interesting chasing the bouncing ball because you not only were you productive with what you were creating under the ministry name, but you were doing all this other stuff, which was similar but different enough that you. You were like, you know, I would chase you down the different rabbit holes that you were going down. You know, it was funny as during that time as well at Chicago Track Studios, we had the A room and then all the Frankie Knuckles house stuff was in the B room.

And the burgeoning, you know, paths of rap were starting in different things. Even house alone, Chicago house. House, yeah. So I did so many mixes for those house things. Oh, I didn't know that. No, because I'm not credited. It was like literally they'd come into the A room from the B room with literally a bag of cash. I told them I want unmarked dollar bills.

And they'd bring in a bag of cash. I'd have a 38 on the desk. And they'd have like a couple guys with 45s. We'd count the money. I'd do a house mix and they'd go on their way. That's amazing. It was like that. That's amazing.

That's amazing. So, illuminate me on this point because it's a little hard to follow trying to do research. When you did the deal with Seymour Stein and Sire, you made sure that Wax Tracks was part of that deal. Absolutely.

Can you give me the kind of general version of that? Because I think that's fascinating because... Yeah, basically, Wax Tracks is going bankrupt because nobody was buying this stuff, but we were their bell cow. And so, and after my experience with Clive and Arista, I didn't want to sign this.

So Seymour Stein kept chasing me around the eastern seaboard, like literally showing up at every show. And at every show I'd make a new demand, like, okay, well, if I'm going to sign with this, then I need a fair light. Okay, but when he shows up, are you playing stuff from the first album or new stuff? Or what are you playing at that point? Both. Okay.

actually mainly new stuff, to be honest. We really hadn't played any of this retro stuff for years up until recently in Pasadena. And that seemed to work out well. We've updated it and all that. But anyway, Seymour would come by and then one day he'd come by and backstage because he's Seymour Stein. He somehow floats between the raindrops and gets backstage and just says, I really want to sign you, and I'm just like, well, okay, I need this. And he'd agree to it, and then I'd go, I'll let you know.

Then he'd show up in our next show, and then I'd have a new request. And pretty soon it started to get to be a pretty hefty thing. And then finally it was just like, oh, by the way, you've got to get wax tracks out of debt so we can continue or like what we're doing in Chicago. Right. And so that was part of the deal. That's amazing. a lot less money, kept wax tracks going,

and then we just kept doing like our crazy stuff, that, you know, anything from Cabaret of O'Otare would be in town or Knit to Reb or, you know, you name it. It was all on wax tracks. Yeah. Those were our salad days. It was amazing. I mean, like I said, I was there.

It was a really, use a fancy word, a fecund period, you know, which is basically what grows out of it, right? But, you know, Chicago in the mid to late 80s wasn't the cultural hub of the world. We were basically... No, I mean, well, of course, like with punk rock in New York, with the Ramones, Blondie and this and that,

and Richard Hell, and then all of a sudden it shifted to, like, Chicago industrial. Yeah. Then we had people, like, like I said, like Cabaret of O'Otare, flew in from Sheffield, England, to, like, just work at that studio. We had bands like... Were you kind of producing these artists that were coming in

or shadow producing or... Or in their sessions or working with them or something, but, you know, always around. Were you kind of like, for lack of better word, kind of doing A&R, you know, we were kind of overseeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So your fingerprints was on a lot of that stuff. Yeah, I always thought that, but I wasn't sure.

Yeah, but you can even take bands like 9-inch nails and filter and things like this. They came to Chicago, tracks because they heard the music that was coming out of there. Like I said, bands from Europe would fly over there to record there because they heard what was coming out of there. And basically, I would just blockbook the room for a year. So whatever was in there was in there and then we'd figure it out.

It was kind of your call. Yeah, yeah. Ah, okay, that makes sense. Explains a lot because, again, I'm just on the other side of it, like listening. either, you know, I'd be at the clubs, I'd hear stuff, or some girls' apartment, you'd hear stuff, you know. I saw some stuff where you're talking about, you know, post-Aresta, you're poor and, you know,

but at the same time, you know, my sense is you were very fully committed to music. Was it like a 24-hour day, like were you live in it? Yeah, it became that for certain, you know, from a 40-year. track in an attic to full-time block booked, you know, every year. I mean, you know, that obviously affects relationships and all that stuff. But, you know, that's why, yeah, I was fully committed.

Yeah. So you signed with Sire and you start working on what becomes land of rape and honey, right? Is that correct? Well, actually, Twitch was the first one, but I made that. Oh, sorry. My bet. No, no, no. But what I had them do, I'm always thinking long term.

So Twitch, I knew I didn't have my chops down yet, and I really liked Adrian Sherwood's production. So I said... Who done big Depeche Mode stuff? Right, right, right. It was pretty cool at the time. And Neibout and stuff. Okay, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I was like, yeah, I want that guy to do it. That was one of my final things when Seymour would come by, I go, no, I want a fair light. And next time it's like, no, I want Wax Track to be. be bailed out. Next time it's like, no, I want Adrian Sherwood as producer and Sherwood wouldn't

come there. So I went to London and lived there for a long time, about a year and a half and got a lot of stuff done there and learned so much. I mean, my whole thing with Sherwood was like basically I remember at one point, I had so

many songs that I just gave him the songs. It's kind of like a Graham Parsons, Keith Richards like wild horses thing where they traded it for a gram of coke you know well i had five extra songs that we had for uh twitch that um i was just like uh they had this shit that we were doing to keep up at night and work you know constantly called whiz which was umphetamine sulfate and so i basically traded five ministry songs oh my god for umphatamine sulfate and so i basically traded five ministry songs Oh my God.

For two ounces of whiz and engineering lessons from Sherwood, like literally showed me how to run the board so then he could go off. Like for the last half of that record for Twitch, he was just like, I'm out of here. You know what you're doing. You just take it away. So, yeah, but, yeah, it was fun. I mean, once I got to know the board,

then I also got to engineer all. other people like Lee Perry and stuff like that, just weird stuff that would come in in the studio at Southern Studios in London and just be engineer and get the engineer's point of view. I know I'm not the producer, but like to run the board and all that stuff. And yeah, as opposed to being like the lead singer or whatever,

you wear a lot of different hats, as I'm sure you know. You know, I'm no fan of music, intelligentsia critics. And one of the things that really irritates me as someone who loves and respects you is they don't really understand your contribution to music. They understand your contribution maybe from the ministry side. But I think where you get shortchrift people don't understand your influence as a producer. Like you've had an influence on me and how I produced my records. Oh, I just listened to your last record and we produced the same way. Oh, thank you.

That's a big compliment. It's, that was really, this new record of yours is, production-wise, sound as hell. I mean, it's clean. Thank you. Back to you. Your contribution, it sounds like such a fucking boring word, but your influence as a producer, I think,

is as great as your contribution as a music artist. Nobody knows that. Well, I do. Yeah, yeah, okay. Which is why I'm bringing. No, but I'm saying it, It irritates me, and you don't need me to defend or be your proselyte, but my point is, is it irritates me because I think musicians know.

Musicians know. And that's all I care about. Okay, good. Well, that's good because, or maybe not, but I'm saying is you got a mad level of street respect from the music world because we know what you brought to the table. And that's perfectly fine with me. Like, for instance, Trent Rezner started out as a roadie for us. he went on next thing i know he's on the cover of rolling stone and stuff and we're still

slogging in the trenches his roadie was maryland manson which then overtook him which was so it's kind of like this tree sure but you're the o g now one minute was i ever bitter about that i'd cheered them on i'm like this is how are you right this is a spiritual question but how are you okay with all that because at times it would it was it was would annoy me, and it's no disrespect to Trent, but it would annoy me when you would read articles and they would act like Trent invented it. And you've always given, you know, you've always cited your influence. It's not like you pretended that you invented it. I would say you're the person who put the pieces together. Right, right. Yeah, I'm basically, I call what I do

collage rock. But you're the first person who did it in a way where someone like me, who didn't know anything about that type of music went, I understand what he's. doing. No, for not one second did I ever feel like bitter or anything about the success of other people. I was actually glad to see them go on their way and to carry on what we were trying to do from the beginning of wax tracks, which was basically up-end music and the music industry. Well, you did.

Well, to a certain extent. We're still back to the same old crap now. So it's like, you know, we were a bump in the road, just like Grunge was a bump in the road. Sure. Whatever the bump in the road, flavor of the month, we were flavor of the month for a while. And that's good, but you have to take it in perspective. And then especially if you know the people, you know, like Trent's just a great guy. So why would I be upset with him, you know, doing that?

Trent never said, like, I invented this stuff. Trent was always very magnanimous and said, like, no, I learned my chops from these knuckleheads. Yeah, yeah. All right. So, yeah, I mean, there's, and the media loves to build these, like, feuds and this and that, blah, blah, blah, and that. And, nah. 88, land of raping honey. Now here's land of rape honey.

You're starting to do it your way? Oh, yeah. You're running your world. And now it starts to really work. Yeah. I mean, that must have felt... We figured it out. But it must have felt pretty good, right?

Yeah. Well, it was a lot of hard work. Trust me. This was taking something that, you know, you were schooled in and just throwing it all out and literally doing... Instead of copying another band... Beatles.

Right? or something. Yeah. I went for authors, and William Burroughs and, and, uh, Brien Gisson, uh, their cut-up method of words to make sense, uh, universally by just like, just random words making sense. Was Jen is this part of that logic, too? Or, Jen and I have, yeah, yeah, we, a little bit, but he wasn't part of the sessions. Burroughs was.

meant it more in terms of like let's call it it, and it's a little bit of a joke, but like the psychic collective kind of heads in a certain direction. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, he was a factor in that as far as influence. But when I decided to know I'm sticking with this,

but back then we didn't have the technology and oh man, that was like you know, three weeks for one song, literally physically editing. You were way ahead of the technology. because you were doing stuff that nobody could do

because they didn't work like that. With old school technology. Yeah, I know that's what I'm saying. Even in the 90s when we would try to do certain stuff, it was like impossible. Yeah, yeah. This is kind of at the start of the MTV version of things, right? I'm not crazy, right?

No. Yes. Right? No, you're not crazy. Okay. And here comes these terms, industrial battle and, you know, industrial or... You remember how many different charts they had back then?

It was ridiculous. Yeah. Like in the mid-done, he's like, I can't even remember the names of all them, but like you'd be number one on this chart of this specific genre. You know, that's what started emo and this. Sure. There must have been 15 different charts, so I just stop. Right.

Just stop. So it kind of goes two different ways here in my mind. One is that you were born in Cuba and your family left before the brink. revolution and I think it's probably a lazy take to say that has something to do with your sort of your views on the world no it's actually spot on okay hold that thought for one second and then the other side is is it's about this time that you maybe because of being inspired by people like geysen and burrows you start to put yourself through a version of hell you know what I mean from my perspective, and I only know you a little bit,

but I always saw you in the lineage of that. Like, I am the experiment, you know. I'm willing to put myself through these. Well, you tell me. No, I lived the experiment. That's what I'm saying. Were you inspired by that crowd? Was that part of your thinking or was that just who you were?

Well, I think, yeah, that type of thinking got me into the situation where I was the experiment, where I lived with Tim Leary for a long time, and he would try out new strains of MDA or whatever, and I would inject it in front of them, and he would take notes, and all this crazy stuff went on. We started out with three guinea pigs.

It was me, Mike Scasha, and Gibby Haynes, from the Bud Hole servers at Timothy Leary's house, and he would do Friday experiments on us but we'd shoot up this like new cytadelic that some university had come up with okay sounds good

like ten minutes later you're like seeing spiders converge on you and stuff it was crazy but then there were some good trips too and all that but I like being the experiment of it, and I also liked being away from the band at Tim's. Like, I quit the band for about a year and a half. And I think Barker and Chris Connolly tried to, like,

resurrect the band with Chris Connolly as singer. Yeah, I seem to have a faint memory. But it didn't really go well until I was ready. And then Tim just started, it just gets to the point where, like, every Friday becomes like, oh my God. No, no, no, no. I'm over this. And so I'm like, hey, guys, I think I'm going to come back to the band now.

But take one step back, because I'm fascinated by this, because, you know, unlike probably most people in the world who are a fan of yours, I was actually sort of around this atmosphere around you. The legend of Al in Chicago was probably bigger than the real Al, but the legend took on a life of its own. You'd hear these crazy stories. But from the inside, where most people, when they would talk about you, you know, would be kind of like, I have a shake in their head.

Like, can you believe this happened? But I always saw you in this lineage of, like, let's call it, the mystic visionaries or something. Did you see yourself in that way? I did after post-Tem. Okay. Then it's... But say, like, the land of raping, because you, and you tell me because you were there.

No, we were still trying to find our way. I mean, we did something that was not done before. It was like basically cross-pollinating author techniques with music techniques and this and that and put it together and this and that and put politics in there too. But we didn't know what we were doing. And even the next one, then we started adding more of a metal element when Mike Scasha joined the band. and we still didn't know what we're doing because we're still clawing our way around trying to figure it out.

And then by the time that we got popular after Psalm 69, with Philpig, everything started falling apart and I just, pretty much, that record is mine. Like, ran out of politics, ran out of band members, just kind of me in a studio, and

yeah, I mean, a couple people came in and contributed stuff but I just remember being stuck there for a long time doing Philpig and everybody hating it

when it came out. I loved that record. When it came out, that's what got me dropped from Warner Brothers. What's that record? I don't remember where it came out,

but I listened to it for months after it came out. I really liked it. It was like stuck in my car. It was one of those records, right? I wouldn't take it out of the CD player. Right, yeah.

And when I first got to know you a little bit, I was like, I love this record. And you were almost like, really? I couldn't believe it. It's like, everyone hated it, but now everyone loves it. It's a great record. This is the thing about, like, what you were alluding to before with, like, I always seem to be either two or three years ahead of, like you said,

Nostradamos. Yeah, yeah. So I don't worry on my vocals when I'm singing something political that it's going to be outdated before it comes out. I pretty much am sure what I'm saying is it's also a little bit more universal than just like, I hate Trump, I hate Trump, I hate Trump or something, you know. I loop. Yeah, right.

So I know that's going to go well, but, you know, the thing with recording is like. You're just doing what feels good at the time, especially musically. But what I find is that, all right, so my lyrics are okay a couple years ahead of time. But then our music, because we just do what feels good, is never in sync with what flavor of the month is. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So we're always a couple years behind and a couple of years ahead,

and so ministry has never had that splash hit kind of thing, you know? But we just mind their own business. I guess when I'm after, I'm not trying to belabor the point, but, you know, celebrity is its own weird thing, and you've kicked at it the entire time. I hate it. Okay, that's a fair thing. So, and then on the other hand, and I guess I'm speaking more personally, and again, I only know you a little bit, but it seemed like you kind of set yourself on fire.

Yeah, purposely. Right, okay. Yeah, yeah, a little child tantrum. Like, man, I don't want to do this anymore. Gasoline. Yeah. I'm moving to Timothy Learys. I quit the band.

Yeah, man. Right. Right. But the mystical side of that, and maybe it's not the right word you would use, but I find that fascinating because in American life, there aren't a lot of people that do that. And it's like either live to talk about it or have a work product to demonstrate the path through madness or the keyhole or, you know, Lewis Carroll. You know, you've, as an artist and autoture, you've always sort of shown what you've seen through the keyhole, right? Is that fair? Yeah.

I'm just basically going through life with, okay, this is a dated thing, but like with a Polaroid camera. Yeah. That's a song, that's a song, that's a song, that's a song. And leave it at that. But trying to make it so, instead of just like what has caused a reaction

of this photo at that time, which dates it, why is the photo making people so, so there's always a level deeper than just taking pictures and doing a song? Yeah. Why am I taking this picture? Why are people going to be attracted to this picture

or repulsed by this picture? Yeah, which is, in my estimation, is the same thing. That's what people don't understand about art. Right. If it engenders love and attraction or repulsion, it's really the same energy. It just goes in different directions. Exactly. And, you know, you've been very effective at attraction and repulsion.

I poke a few bears. Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's very skilled. And part of that and something I admire about you that I don't have the same faculty. Maybe it's a lack of confidence. But I always feel you've been really okay with what I call perfectly. imperfect. And that's like you say it's a snapshot. You know what I mean? It's like it's a moment in time.

And because it's the moment in time it's perfect even if it's chaos or it's in, you know, it's not about is it in tune and it's here's that moment. Right. But the key question is why is it that moment? Yes. Okay. So

this is where you got to go. Not only that, I mean, all bands. Right. I have a good friend, Jello Biaf, with the dead Kennedys. And he was so succinct on capturing the moment of whatever he did. But then, as you listen to it 20, 30 years later, outside of a couple songs,

he gets so specific with the snapshot that people of a different generation have no clue to what the references are. So you need to make it more universal and why you wanted to take the snapshot. Are you conscious of that universality when you're working? Absolutely. Matter of fact, I've never written a song in my life. I literally, I don't know how, but like my antenna, you know, gets transmitted stuff. And then it's my job to translate that into, and only a couple times in my life

have I ever met the transmission that I get. But I've never sat down and wrote a song and jammed with people. Well, I shouldn't say never. There's a couple that are like jammed things. But I get you what you mean. What's funny about that to me is I know you love good song. Like I know you love good country music.

Like you are attracted to song. It's not like you're like, I don't like the song form. Right. No, no. Absolutely. But like for many of the music, ministry stuff, there's very few songs I've ever written. I pretty much just borrow from the universe and what they tell me to do and then I do the best that I can to replicate the transmission that I get.

I know it sounds crazy, but that's honestly it makes total sense to me. That's literally our paradigm. But that's what I mean by the perfectly imperfect, right? There's something about your commitment to the space that I've always felt as a listener. Like I always feel like I, maybe I'm being indulgent, but I feel like I know exactly what you're trying to say. Oh, that's great. Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever it is, it's like, okay, I hear you, Al, like it comes across.

There's a clarity there that's really interesting. I hope it's not overbearing. That's what I want to avoid. Well, usually, maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but usually when I feel like you're being overbearing, it's because you want to be overbearing. Does it make sense? It's like, you're drilling this in my head

because you want to drill this in my head. That's part of the chaos factor of it all. You know, you know, from whether it's Sufi music, repetition is part of the, you know, the disassociative nature of creating some kind of chaos in the brain or, what do they call it, when you have two thoughts and you can't hold them in your mind, it is cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance. You know what I mean?

Yeah. You're good at creating a cognitive dissonance in the Lister. Well, that's because it's coming from cognitive distance in the writer. So that's why the long arc I'm after is like, you light yourself on fire and then you're skilled enough as an artist and producer to translate the feeling of being lit on fire into a song and do it in a way that doesn't date,

which is really interesting. Thank you. But once again, I owe it more to authors and directors. The grass is always greener. Like I look at authors and directors of movies as like this. So who are on your

Is it pan? And then musicians, I know how it's done. Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, yeah, I'm happy for you. That sounds great.

But like that's... So who's on your Mount Rushmore of directors? Oh, God. Kubrick? Does he qualify? Yeah. I mean,

Kubrick, to me, has to be number two. Jodorovsky has to be number one. just the fact that he was able to get financing for the movies he wanted to do. Do you know that story where he needed financing from George Harrison? Do you know that story? Yes.

I'll tell this story since we're talking. So he's up for a movie. George Harrison comes to give him a million dollars for the movie, and there's a scene where George Harrison says, can we remove the part where the person takes a shit or something? And Jodorowski says, no way. It walks away from a beetle, right? It's amazing.

I know. Well, he was supposed to do a video. He was actually supposed to do the just-one-fix video. Oh, wow. Warner Brothers and I were talking, and we had already blown through our budget. Of course. We were over, you know, back in the 90s and the Wild West days.

And so I'm on the phone with Jodorovsky, and he's in his apartment in Paris. It's a huge apartment, but needless to say, he's like, I would love to do this video, but we have to do the whole thing in my apartment because I don't leave my apartment. Okay. So I translated that back to Warner Brothers, and they're going, we're going to send a bunch of junkies to go spend a bunch of weeks in Paris while Zodorovsky won't leave his apartment and all this thing. Make sense to me.

I mean, smart business decision, but I was crushed because I just thought that he would have done something like, yeah. That would have been cool. Yeah. As I said in our opening preamble, you know, there I am in the Cabaret Metro, somewhere in the late 80s, tripping my mind on LSD, and I look up and you look like Satan. Your physical transformation, you know, I'm not akin to anything that you did. to a level of consciousness, but you are a performance artist at some quantum level.

Was that, because obviously there was also this musical shift into metal, which from the industrial electronic world of people who did like what you were doing, including me, I love when you went metal, I totally got it, but there were a lot of people were like, what happened to dance owl, you know? I know, and there's a lot of metal people

that hated our metal. There's a lot of dance people that hated a back to be on metal. But don't you think, your work on the, let's call it the heavier, side. I think that's grown very well over time with that crowd. So I'm saying that's aged well. Well, and you look at all the bands that basically

were like, I'll take that. Yeah, right, and that's great. Yeah. Sorry, there was no question in there, but I guess what I'm after is lighting yourself on fire, now you look like Satan. You know what I mean? You're playing behind chicken wire. There was that whole period.

Were you, did you see it as an artistic provocation that you were happy to indulge in or was it some reflection of some other dissatisfaction? Because that's always been this weird thing on you. I feel like I'm on this side of the street, which is... You're talking about my physical appearance. I'm talking about you've had sort of three musical kind of identities.

Right. One you didn't want, one where you were kind of figuring it out, and then kind of the one you've sort of been in since. And each one of those had to... That's good. I've never heard anyone put that in three Enochs. Three Enochs, there you go. But for people who I think are less sort of listening carefully,

I saw it as somebody sort of like not an actor taking on a role, but it was like, okay, now we're in this movie. You know, this is the, you know, we're now in this part of the fun house. And this look, this aesthetic, this way of playing gigs, this way of releasing music, this way of producing music. this is kind of where I'm attracted. And as someone who's always been, who chases the feeling, right?

That's what you said. But I guess what I'm after is, there's always this thing of like, is Iggy Pop really Iggy Pop? You know what I'm saying? Of course. Is he just some nerd who figured out that people would rather hang out with Iggy Pop

than Jimmy, whatever his real name is? Osterberg. Thank you. But, no, he's Iggy Pop. I mean, he's now settled down a little bit, but I can't think of anything truer than the representation of himself with his music.

Okay, so to reverse the question, did you become Satan or were you always Satan? I'm not trying to be funny, but you know, I'm saying, that character that emerged out of all that. I think originally, yes, of course, it was also a, you know, a reaction towards being controlled by ERISA records in the business that, oh, yeah, well, I'm going to do this, me, man, me, me, me, you know.

A lot of childish tantrums went into that, but then I just stopped caring, and then it's just like, look, whatever's happening with my hair. Well, my look's been the same for 30 years. I even think like some of these, these are like 20 years old. It's like I don't, I barely changed my clothes. So I stopped caring once I reached a point where I felt comfortable with myself. And so then it has nothing to do with the music. Okay.

You know, what I'm. But was it a process for you of finding something or was it a process of discovery? I think it was a process of rebellion. I mean. But sorry, are you still in? rebellion then? No, I just gave up. So I'm just a natural born rebel.

Post-rebellion. Post-rebellion. Natural-born rebel. Well, most people, you know, I'm speaking a little bit more of my own generation because, you know, you pay a different attention to your generation because those are the people that are around. In your case... Wait a minute.

How old do you think I am? Well, you, but see, you were so successful young. the thing. Right. So we're not that different, but in my mind, you're a different generation, even if that's not fair. That's crazy. Because I was coming to see you. What? That's crazy. All right. I'll take that.

You know, my band didn't start until 88. So when I'm seeing you in 86, I'm just some kid who likes music. Well, Paul DeMore in our band now from Tool, on bass, Tool was just in rehearsals and wasn't even a band yet.

When they came sauce at Laopalooza, which would have been 92. And I accidentally dosed him with LSD. Accidentally. I know it was an accident because I'd always put a couple drops of liquid LSD and my bush mills on stage. Okay. And drink that, and then I only drank half the bottle.

This is every show? Yeah, yeah. And so then I get... Was it microdosing or you were trying to get high? No, no, I was trying to get high. I hate playing live. So anything I can do to make it to where it's like this, like, Fellini meets Shodorovsky film for me,

makes it interesting. Nowadays, it's a lot more calm down. But, like, so I get off stage, and there's these, there's Maynard and Paul. But they were kids. Yeah. But, like, there's only probably you're the same age as them. Yeah.

It was about eight years separation, but you could just tell they were just like, wide-eyed kids. And I was like, I felt like that old Pepsi commercial with Shaq coming out of a basketball game going, handing over a Pepsi doing it. Here, kid. Here's the pushmill with LSD in it. Him and Maynard drank up this, oh, my God, this, Al Jordan gave this to him in there. And then they'd realize, like, oh, my God, this is full of LSD.

Oh, my God. And then next thing I know, they're huge. Yeah. They're on the cover of Rolling Stone, this, and that, no. So, yeah, I've had a lot to do with, like, beside the production part and all this, just kind of like, I'm kind of like the Tom Bombadil. I don't know who that is. That's a Hobbit reference. Okay.

For all you people out there that know this, Tom Bombadil, if you've read the books, he was cut out of the movie about Peter Jackson, but he's making a comeback. And Tom Bombadil is just this chilled old hippie that just kind of nosish and doesn't want to start up shit, but like starts up shit anyways. Is that now or back then? Or both, both.

I really think I'm kind of like a Tom Bombadil character. Look them all. Okay. We talked about this a bit, but I still want to explore it a little bit more. Because, you know, before your success with what is now commonly called industrial music, you know, there was really no sort of commercial value to it. Still isn't. Well, you could argue there is and there isn't. I mean, Romstein is huge.

Right. I saw Romstein play in a football stadium, 60,000. They also do it smart. Their management and the way TIL is structured stuff. They're great guys, and I'm sure you know them. They're great band. But they also do it very smart on their marketing and how they do stuff. Trent did the same thing.

Very smart on the marketing stuff. So do you have regrets that when you were sort of in those years, those particular years, where there was the commercial focus on you that you didn't take more advantage of it? No, no, no. Well, that's my first. fault but i don't consider it a fault i consider it me it's just like yes i could have been that person they wanted me to play the game entirely of like the interviews the are you capable of playing the i'm i'm really not good at it man yeah kind of got that feeling i i try i really do try but uh

nah i'm just not very good at yeah i used to say um you know because we've all had those meetings we go in the boardroom and there's all the money people in the president. Oh my God. And they would kind of, you know, they give you the gilded path. If you just go down this little yellow brick road, you're going to make a lot more money. And there was a moment in my life where they were laying out all the things I was doing wrong. Who are they to say that? Well, thank you.

I needed you in that meeting. Oh, no, I hear you. Think about it, you take an artist. First of all, the artist has to figure something out. And if it was so easy, they wouldn't use us. Start there, right? They would get people who are easy to get along with or pretty or whatever, you know what I mean? Sing higher.

Or start a new, like, kind of MGM Studios thing where they can mass produce K-pop bands. Sure, yeah. With youngsters having, like, complete, like, child labor law issues to make them the new... I once said to... Do you ever meet Tony Wilson, a factory? No, I don't know, but oh God, that would have been on my bucket. Okay, so Tony once wanted to interview me for something he was doing for like an industry panel. He's like, I'm going to interview you, and then I'm going to show this to a bunch of people in the industry in Europe.

So this is your chance to say whatever you want to say to the music business. It was very interesting. I'm talking to Tony Wilson, you know, started factory and, you know, very ahead of his time. Like all those contracts with Joy Division, it was all 50-50. we split the masters. I mean, such a visionary in that way. And unfortunately, he's not with us anymore.

So Tony said, literally go ahead. Here's the camera. You can talk to the entire music business in Europe. What do you want them to know as an artist? And I said, I don't know why you find a needle in a haystack like me or like you. And then you spend the rest of the years telling us, we don't know what the fuck we're doing. They were not needles in a haystack.

That's what I'm saying. It's the weirdest thing. It must be like a pimp hose. thing. Like, you need me and if you don't have me. You know what? I think you're absolutely right. Only I can protect you.

Only I know the magical secret. Right? Right. But they pick you out. They suss talent out. But then it's like, it's not only flavor of the month. It's also the egos of the companies themselves. Oh, yeah.

They're definitely. Oh, yeah. I got, I used to call it, you know, you'd meet, I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. Yeah, right. I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. Yeah, exactly. I'm this guy.

I'm that guy. But how many guys have you met that have said that? Like about 14. And so what we need to do is get them in like some kind of WWE thing and have them battle it out to find out who really signed Nirvana. Yeah, there you go. At the end. I had a note here and we talked about Timothy Leary because it's interesting. Did you read the book that Ram Dass wrote?

Yeah. How'd you feel about that book? Well. These old hippies, you know, they got an interesting take on things. Yeah, yeah. No, no. I mean, yeah, it's spot on, but like my time with Tim was different. He was on his way out the door, and he knew it.

He was already diagnosed with prostate cancer, and so it was kind of like he went from hippie ideals to the last couple years to like pretty much nihilism. Really? Interesting. Yeah. I mean, for, you know, I watched the decline of somebody that said like,

you know, I'm not a fate of death man. It's like it's just the next realm and this and that, blah, blah, blah. And then as it kept creeping closer, watching him go more into like kind of like panic mode not public panic mode but like inner panic mode yeah i had the same thing happen with my mother yeah she's diagnosed with cancer and in the beginning she was very sanguine this is my number and this is my life and at the end it got really dark this this this this this that's why i went back to ministry it started getting dark when you go back a ministry to avoid the darkness. You know you're in trouble. But what I was after was,

you know, and because, you know, you were in close contact with one of these 60s icons. And there's two points I want to make there. One is if Leary was, let's call it, the hedonistic side of that, you know, like the merry prankster, hipster side. And Ram Dass was the no man, just got to sit here and listen to Babaji, you know, to say the world is a flower and you spend eight hours trying to figure out what he meant. Yeah, but I think both of those are like just so over the top like character, characterizations of them that don't really fit the people. But in a way, I mean, you tell me, but in a way, you know, our generation kind of went out of a way to smash a lot of that stuff. I think we got sick of the hippie shit, for lack of a

better way to put it. Well, I jumped right back into it right at the, like you said, the height of everyone hating them. I was like, wow, they seem to make sense to me. Okay. So like I said, I've always been a few years ahead or a few years behind. I'm not sure. Yeah. But I just know that I go with my gut and that felt right at the time. Yeah. But I guess what I'm after is because we were the generation that kind of killed the hippie thing. And they were the two, let's call it two icons of that. You know, you're like, it's you're there Jerry or, you know, like, you know, that crowd. Like there's Jerry people and then there's like, I don't know, Carlos Santana people.

You know, they kind of go in different directions. I don't know if there's a point I'm after other than, were you conscious of smashing that stuff up? No, and I also firmly believe that they smash themselves. Okay. all the punk rock stuff that said, you know, burn your Zeppelin records and this and that, you know, all the UK invasion and the New York, you know, hardcore scene and burn all this stuff.

I was like, I don't know, I still kind of like it, you know? But then I watched them as that generation, the boomer generation grew, they burned themselves. That's interesting. With their own excesses and their own, like, indulgences and fantasies that, like, they were really making a difference when they were really working for hedge fund managers at that point. So I just watched the sellout of that movement. Just as we saw the sellout of the punk movement, the sellout of the grunge movement, the sellout of the...

Yeah. So... Yeah. That's a lot to take on because I hear you and I agree with you. But it's like, it's sort of like, it's like, and you address this in song. You know, I remember in the 80s it was like CNN, here's the government, here's the message. Oh, we're bombing these people over there because something, something, something. And you were one of the first artists to come on and call bullshit on the whole thing.

You know, again, kind of Nostradamus, right? You know, you injected a level of politic in your music that hadn't really been seen since the 60s that I can remember. And, and, last point on that, you knew at that point that a lot of stuff they were saying was bull-shad. Absolutely. But I also had the platform without social media back then. Sure. I try and make my themes a lot more universal now, more like about. humanity and moral compass

than I do about specific right-wing, left-wing political things. Sure. And this is a conscious effort because really I don't need the bullshit. Right. And I don't have Facebook

or whatever tick-tackies and Instagramis and I don't do any of that stuff. But I just And the reason I don't do any of it is I did have Facebook for like a couple months and I was like this. So I just stay away from that. My own stuff. But I am very conscious of when I'm writing lyrics, unfortunately.

But actually, in a way, it's been good because it's forced me to write more in a, a universal mode instead of being angry at one specific thing so you expand your your um Is that so you don't get sort of trapped in the paradigm they're presenting? That, but it's also,

you know, originally it's like, I don't need this bullshit so I'm not going to say this bullshit. But then by not saying that bullshit, you still want to say that bullshit So it forces you to find another way to say that bullshit that's a little bit... Yeah, I get it.

You know, not watered down, but just more like, whoa, you got to think about it. Yeah. So I just want to share one thing because it's a cool memory in my mind. As I said before, at one point I was working at tracks and I was in the other room. You worked at Wax Tracks? No, Chicago Tracks. Yeah. I don't know if you would remember, but...

Yeah. That's when we first got to know each other a little bit. And there was about a two or three-week period where we were literally in the studios at the same time. And so once a day, I kind of come over. There was a connecting door. And I'd come over and you would play me whatever you were working on, which was cool.

And I got to see you work a little bit. And you were pretty much working on your own. And I have this great memory. It's a story I like to tell where you were telling me about the song you were working on. some of the themes involved and you said oh do you want to hear it i like to play it for you and you know it's one of your song so it's like it starts it's like it's concussive volume ssl spike through my brain and then the vocal comes in it's like oh wow wow wow you know but you were

just telling me all the sensitive stuff that you were trying to get in the song and so you play it for me and you know i'm a fan so i get it you know it's not like i'm shocked by it but you know you play me the song and then you so you did the feelings that i was you know did it come across it was such a contrast in moments because we're having like we're talking now very very gently you know you know i'm having this feeling and then gargrawrarrarrar ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra raeys yeah so well sometimes you need both to make a salad yeah um this is a total nerd question but i'm asking since you're sitting here and I know there's going to be some nerds out there. You've always had an interesting relationship with low end in your mixes.

Right. In that way... Not always good. Well, but is very ahead of its time because if you look at modern production, it's more how you've always produced. Very bright, very present, and the base kind of is in there, but it's not like, you know, over the top. That's a total nerd question, but I had to ask.

Well, no, but then... Then I've done some stuff where I've felt like the bass overtook it. And there was no mid. There was just like highs and bass. And I think that was working like with Sherwood and with the reggae community, like Lee Perry and stuff like that. You really had to know your base. but you also have to know

that bass is not going to work that EQ is not going to work in a metal format so which do you want I see so it's literally different types of music so you have to learn how to combine them

so I've wrestled with the low end a lot and had some hits had some misses yeah because that's what I remember you would play me stuff I'd come over and visit you and it was like It was always shocking, like, the level of, like, forward, you know. I don't want to see a salt because that sort of makes it sound like it's harsh. It's a very surgical way of presenting music. Yeah, we spent a lot of time on it.

Yeah. You know, so when you come by our studio, man, I can't wait to. You got to come by. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. We're in the home stretch. So you've been on this crazy journey.

and you're not just an aging hippie, but the wear on your body, mind, spirit, like where are you at on all that? Because I guess the question is, was it worth it, you know? Was putting yourself through a form of hell? Was it worth it? Well, I mean, means justifies and ends.

And the end is that I'm quite content. Own a beautiful house here, love it here, don't want to leave here. I've stopped looking at properties in Barcelona and Lisbon for moving, right? So, yes, was it worth it? Absolutely. Body toll and all that, you know, that's why I want to get out in the next couple years. It's kind of like if you're in NFL with concussions.

It's like, you know, maybe if you have too many headaches all the time, I should retire. And I'm not saying that I'm having too many concussions or anything, but I'm just saying that over the next couple of years, I want to wrap everything up with a bow and be able to enjoy a different part of my life, as opposed to just doing the grind. But do I regret the grind? Not at all.

It's got me to where I am today, and I'm happy with that. I'm not asking you if you believe in God, but I'm asking you how God relates. or doesn't relate in your music because a lot of your messaging has been against, let's call it, material or oppressive culture. And obviously there's a religious version of that, and we grew up in this, whatever that was, you know, the Pito Church and all that stuff. Well, here's the thing.

My religion, I don't understand, but I know it's there. Am I spiritual? A hundred percent. Like I told you, I don't think I've ever. written a song. I get my songs from the universe like I don't know where they come from. Middle of the night, blah, blah, blah, well, better get up, voice memo it and try and figure it out in the morning, whatever. There is a spiritual energy all over this universe. I don't think human beings, most human beings, 99.9% of human beings, aren't able to tap into that universal

knowledge. I think that's a religion. All this other garbage, the Christians, Muslims, Jews, this is all garbage. This is made up fantasy stuff for patriarchal control. Blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah. War after war after war. Just that's not religion to me. You know, that's just another government form of a oppression. So my religion, I can't even understand. But I know it's there.

So to that, because you've obviously done a lot of journeying, chemically fueled and otherwise, is your conception in all that journey that there is a god? Or is it, you know, like some people are kind of coming around almost to like a matrix theory, which is more of like a simulation theory. Right. As someone who's gone literally the edge of consciousness. Right. That is a really, astute question because I'm struggling with that right now. Interesting. Whether there is...

You'll have to come back and we'll pick that one. Yeah, whether there is just a matrix or whether there is... I'm not saying a being, like one person in charge of... I always caught the guy in the white beard, right? Right, right. But just a universal energy

that through mathematics somehow affects everything and everyone. Sure. Okay? but then there's the matrix, which is also mathematics and a universal thing, but that's AI. The other one is real,

a real energy, which I don't understand. I mean, no scientist understands it. Quantum stuff. I've read a few things in popular mechanics lately about how, like, no, we can all tie into the universe, like literally know everything that's going on on every planet, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know.

Right. Could be Matrix, could be something good in spiritual. Like a year from now, we'll pick it back up. Yeah, yeah. Because I would love to have that conversation with you because, again, very few people have done as much during you have and let's call it the psychedelic realm of consciousness,

but also because you've been in culture and culture, for better or worse, gives you a certain sort of illumination to the human condition? Oh, well, I don't... Yeah, but... I'm not asking you to agree. But it's a very skewed vision of it.

Of course, but it is a heightened... Because we're pampered. Okay, but it is a heightened form of illumination, right? You put 5,000 people in a room, and they're all putting their eyeballs on you. I don't even care if you're playing a spoon. Something happens. Right, well, and...

And at the same time, I'm observing them. That's what I'm saying. We have a gilded position in that we experience reality in a very interesting way, including how people project on people like us, including how they process reality. You can make a song and tell them, no, this song is about my sister. And they go, no, it's not. Yeah, right. But I wrote the song, it's about me.

No, it's not. Right? I mean, we've all had those weird experiences. Yes, yes, absolutely. So there is a surreal. But the real human condition also, like I said, we're pampered. We're in our bubble. What are the people in Gaza or Sudan or Ukraine thinking right now of reality?

Do you really think they're giving a shit about pop culture? Or who are the pop stars dating? Right. Yeah. So there's that too, but then again, once again, the question, why. Sure. Okay. So that's what I try and get to with my lyrics is why is this happening, not like, okay, this is happening, let's react.

Why is this happening? So let's play this game. I like this game. I call it if I ruled the world. Oh, uh-oh. Okay, so if you ruled the world, what would you change about the place? political and, I guess, social system of the world, you know, because I certainly know you've always railed against, like, injustice in every form. It's in all your music. And maybe even on some

level you were railing against the injustice that you felt was done. Okay, let me do a rapid-fire thing. Sure. Sure. Term limits on Supreme Court judges and also probably expand the court to point. second get rid of the electoral college third of all get rid of the filibuster fourth of all make psilocybin legal and we're in the neighborhood we're almost there i know so that's it okay if i rule the world okay slight different variation if you could if because everything you said was

working within the political system that exists here in america but if you could install a new political system would you install a new political system would you install a new political system? Well, yeah. I mean, that's Citizens United. Get rid of that and make elections to where you set aside a certain amount of money in your budget, the governmental budget for elections, and that's it. Each candidate gets a span of politics.

Take money out of politics and let people see what people have to say. But that's not going to happen because it's gotten to be the point with AI. and bots and political agendas that I just don't see this nirvana happening where actually, and not only that, people don't want to run for office that are qualified and that could change things. That's a crazy thing because we know there are people out there who would be very, very adeptive running these systems. I don't need this. You know? Yeah, right.

Okay, last bit. I think it's a nice way to bring it full circle. So personally, because I knew your feelings about your early music, I was definitely shocked, I don't know if that's a fair word, when you did the cruel world where you played the WIS Sympathy music. Yeah, that was fun. And then I went out of my way to see your reaction. I watched some of the clips, and I thought,

has he made peace with this part of his life? Yes. Okay, great. Yes. Can you at least walk me through that a little bit? Absolutely. Can I say one thing as a fan? Because I always like that music.

I mean, I was listening to it when it came out. Sure. And I get it because people do this stuff with me sometimes. It's like if I like it and you don't like it or you don't want to play it, am I supposed to feel weird because I like it? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know exactly. I always thought there was good stuff in there.

You know, there was. But it was like, for me, it was like mixed. with one hand behind my back and one eye closed and one ear closed. Just like, okay, kind of like these are the parameters you set. Even though you sign me for something different, I'll do the best I can. And I did at that time and it did what it did. But I was very angry over the process and the paradigm of the whole thing. Over the years, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

get more and more people coming up going, man, you know, I have first records. All right, so we get to, and I'm paying attention, but I'm still like, nah, I don't want anything to do with this. I'm on the bus on one of those late night long halls a couple tours ago, and the band seemed kind of squirly. They were like, And then our keyboard player, J.B. comes up and put something on because, like, usually I just go to bed, man. But I was sitting there, and they were, like, you know, whispering.

And then they played this song that they did. And I'm like, okay, that's pretty good, man. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, that's me. Like, so they... Had done a version of it? They completely did a bunch of songs for that on their own, not telling Grandpa here. They went behind my back and decided to, like, charge him up with like a little bit of, yeah, yeah. And so they confronted it with me, and I was just like, and they're all like, you know, waiting.

And I was like, it's actually not bad. Like the way that they had done these songs made me completely. reevaluate how... Did they tell you why they did it? They were just fans and they were just sick of hearing me like always just downgraded. So it was their way of saying there's something here and...

Yeah. That's pretty cool. I didn't know that part of the story. Yeah, yeah, the band... That's amazing. Especially Paul DeMore and Roy Mayorga were the two cohorts to really get this project going.

And then I said, okay, all right, I can honestly see something that's like usable here and let's pursue it. And then I spent the next three months of my life like going back to where I said I'd never go back to again. Was it simply that it was time and you were ready to make peace with it or did it help you make peace with it? A little bit of both. But I mean, it's time. I mean, like I said, as far as like the bitterness aspect of people. and this and that.

That's not me. And so what am I going to hang on to about like this first album? It's like, you know, things like every day is Halloween is a classic. I mean, that's the first song I ever heard of you. That's the song that made me a fan. That's fine.

So, like, why am I like, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I think it's because, like, you know, when we did the switch, he almost had to overcompensate to, like, win over the metal head. Sure. So you had to really disavow it.

Plus, the experience of doing that record wasn't great. So you combine that up, but then you let years go by and time heals all wounds. And I was just like, I was ready for it, and the band was ready for it doing stuff behind my back and just laid it out. And I was just like, all right, let's do it. Let's kill this bird once and for all, man, done. Well, the thing that strikes me, and I think this is a nice way to end it, it's selfish, but you're here. here. I remember being at Medusa's about 1985, and that was one of those songs, every day as Halloween. When that song came on, the dance floor would go, and I know you were there

some of those nights because I saw you there. Yeah, yeah, crazy. It was crazy. Yeah. So that's what I remember. Yeah, yeah. You figured out this quick silver thing. Yeah. And that sounded, you know, it was like, what's that synth sound? And the, you know, whatever, the whole thing. So God bless on that because I'm glad you made peace with it. I know that sounds like maybe a bit fan indulgent. I'm actually like kind of like cocky strutting my stuff now. Like I

said, I'm going to get you this album and then you listen to it and I'm really happy with the songs that we chose to redo and this and that and I think it makes it more appropriate to ministry these days. It certainly

sounds like us now but without taking the original intent of the song away. Like, you know the song that's coming on, but you also know it's not your grandpa's mix. Sure. It's like this now. So, thank you. All right, man.

God, it's always great to hang with you. Thank you. Appreciate that. All right.