The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Daryl Hall, Part 1 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

Billy Corgan joins Daryl Hall at home for Part 1 of an expansive conversation on the craft of collaboration, the roots that shaped him, and the long road to “Sara Smile.” Daryl retraces his path from doo-wop street corners and Philly R&B to early sessions with Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell, the Atlantic years with the legendary Ahmet Ertegun and Arif Mardin, a left-turn album with Todd Rundgren, and the creative pivot that set the stage for Hall & Oates’ breakout at RCA. Along the way, he shares candid thoughts on resisting labels, finding joy in collaboration, and what it means to move seamlessly between genres. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There's an effortlessness about it. Yeah, yeah, I did. That's always been. I never tried too hard. You don't really have that. You sort of just ignore all of it. I didn't. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff.

You know, they didn't even like the Beatles in Philadelphia. Darrell, thank you so much for being on my podcast. It's a great honor. We're here in your beautiful home. Yes. Undisclosed. In wrestling, we say parts unknown. Yeah.

So we're part. Unfortunately, it's easy to, find where anybody lives these days. That's true. That's true. I've had my battles with Google asking them to remove my name off of searches. Good luck. I want to start with your latest album, which is the D album.

Work with Dave Stewart of Eurythmic's fame. I know Dave a little bit. I was sort of interested because of your long history of working with different people. Do you like working with a partner? Is that something you sort of welcome? What, what, what I'm obvious that I, with it. Yeah, but I'm saying is, my whole career's been based on working with a partner.

Yeah, so I'm, but I'm asking for your, because I didn't find a lot of information, like let's call it from a psychological point of view, why you like working with the partner. The truth is I love collaboration. That's my thing. I don't know why. I mean, I'm perfectly capable,

and I do it all the time of writing songs on my own. That's not the issue at all. But I like that interaction thing. I like what happens when you put two different people, usually two different people. I don't like it when it gets too many more people than that. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah, too many cooks.

But how that, what happens when that chemistry comes together? And I really enjoy that. I mean, that's what the LFDH, you know, Laugh and Darrell's house show is based on, is that kind of thing. That's what made me one of the reasons that made me do it. And it's sort of what I like to do with people. I mean, I like that songwriting team thing. Yeah, I saw where you referred to Dave as your shadow partner? Is that a...

Well, he is. I mean, Dave and I have been working together since 1985. Yeah. Wow. I mean, we did an album, a complete album together, and then we've been doing one-off things over the years ever since then. Yeah, I'm curious, as somebody, I've never worked with Dave. I know, like I said, I know him a little bit, but what is it about Dave in the studio?

because he's been such a successful collaborator with so many different great talents. He's like me. He likes to work with other people. He's good at it. He and I, I can't speak for other people. We are both very spontaneous people. He's extremely talented guy.

His mind is going 1,000 per minute. And we don't waste any time. You know, it's just like, and sometimes we scrap it, and sometimes we start over, you know, whatever, but there's always some kind of action going, it moves and moves and moves. And I really hate that thing

that when you're sitting with somebody to write a song and everybody's kind of just sitting there, you know, thinking and thinking, you know, that's soul-destroying. That is a... Is it partly the world that you grew up in which really was based on that coming in a room and make magic happen in a matter of hours. Yeah, I learned that, I learned that from the earliest,

from Gamble and Huff and people like that. Yeah. And, you know, the Philly guys that I started with. And that was, that's what we did. In listening to your new record, I had this sort of revelation that I'd never had with you before, and I thought it was, it brought to mind something that's fair and unfair about you, about not you, but about how people perceive you, which is that

I think you're in very rare company when I look at your generation, Elton John, David Bowie, Billy Joel, and I guess McCartney, by extension, where you seem to move seamlessly between genres and styles. Like, it's almost like effortless. There's a sort of joy with oscillating between, but very few people are highly skilled at it and had great success with it. Yeah. But I feel like in a weird way, you never got credit like some of those other people did for being able to move that way. Not earlier I didn't, but I think now I am getting plenty of credit for it. Well, you deserve more.

That's my point. Well, thank you. But, you know, all those people you mentioned, they're very, they could move seamlessly within the different genres just like me. And first of all, it requires, you've got to be able to do it. And it's as simple as that. But it also comes from a love of music. Well, absolute, a knowledge of music, and almost a cyclopedic, in knowledge of music. You have to be at home with all these different genres.

You can't just, like, fake it. What were some of those, who were some of the people, not so much just that inspired, but you gave you that sense that rock and roll could really move in a 360, you know, because I had similar things where people would question me, like, why are you not staying in one lane? And I was thought that strange. Well, that was the biggest problem that I had in the early days,

because people couldn't understand and didn't want me to not be in one lane. That was the golden age of old critics. You know? No, they're still there. They're still there, but that was the golden age. And, you know, it's like if you're not playing that game, then they don't know what you are.

They don't know how to label you the old story. It's the oldest story of music. But I just, I just, I don't know. I like music. I listened to lots of listened. I don't listen to so much music now, but I listened to a lot of music and different ones. And I really, I know what I like. Yeah. And it doesn't matter about genre. But when you were growing up, was there a station that sort of, you know, because obviously, and I have a story I want to tell in a second, but obviously you have a great love for soul music and R&B, whatever we would call it now. It's changed news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I grew up with it. I mean, that's baby. Is it the kind of the Philly? Yeah, and if you live in Philly and you're a musician, I think you would move toward that. Yeah.

That was baby food. Yeah. And also, you name some of the bands that would. Yeah, the intruders and, you know, Jack into Starlights and, you know, all those kind of people. I started in the do-up world. You know, I was a street corner singer and with various people, whoever happened to be around. And that's how I broke into whatever and how I met people like Abel and Huff. and all that kind of thing.

It came directly from the street. And I was interested in those days. There was a DJ called Jerry Blavitt in Philadelphia that played really old, like R&B music, street corner music, all that kind of thing. And I was a fool for that kind of stuff, you know. And then I moved seamlessly, and the sound of Philadelphia is based on that.

You know, it's all very vocal-oriented and all that kind of thing. And so I moved right into the world of, you know, with Tommy Bell and Gable Huff and all those kind of people. Yeah. So, excuse me, my little story is, my father was a musician. I talk about it all the time on my podcast, but, you know, a gigging musician. He never had any real success. But I remember there were always 45s around the house.

So somewhere circa 1975 or so I pick up a record, your record, Sarah Smile, and I have a very distinct memory of listening to that song for the first time and just being like, I didn't know what I was listening to, which is always to me the great revelation with music, right? It's like, I knew where it was coming from because my daddy liked that type of music. My dad only loves soul music. So I instantly understood where you were coming from, but I thought, wait, this is different. And my dad would sing your song because he had a similar voice to yours, more high and reedy

than yours. But so hearing my daddy sing that song and having a personal connection to that song, I think it's interesting that we're, I can remember that moment, you know what I mean? And you really hit on something in that, well, obviously, in that moment, it's the template for your success.

It's this, I know what they call blue-eyed soul or something, you know, it's a name I hate, but go on it. Tell me why you hate that name. Because I think it's racist. I mean, I'm a soul-saker, that's all. I mean, I started as that. I don't like to put, I don't like to put racial names. Well, to be fair, my father felt the same way.

You know what I mean? He had a great love of African-American music, but he didn't see himself as the white guy playing in the black band. No. He was just like, we're all doing this music because we love. Did you do it because it felt right. So when you say that, I feel that because that's the way I was raised to. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, the temp tones. I didn't know about the temp tones. I didn't do my temp tones deep dive. That was, that was, we, the reason we had that name is we were, we were all freshmen at Temple University. People used to think we got it from the temptations, which, you know, which, they were my idols, of course, but that isn't where it came from. Yeah, but so we, that we got it. It was just, it's street corner stuff. We, we sang in the Warner. Well, it struck me in listening, it's, Girl I Love You was the one single, right? Mm-hmm.

I mean, you do a pretty good Eddie Kendricks at whatever you were 18 years. I was still a sieve in those days. But what I'm saying is not just anybody can do Eddie Kendricks. I mean, that's a very particular way of singing. And even... Well, it's falsetto singing. As you know, even to sing with good pitch up in falsetto, that's a difficult thing to do.

Most people could do it. So it's all there, even at whatever you were 18 years old. Yeah. Did you feel that? Did you see people reacting to you in that way? Yeah, yeah. But I took it for granted, I have to say. Tell me how you took it for granted.

I just could do it. you know, I mean, I was, I always sang, you know, and I listened to that music. Yeah. I mean, I knew that stuff from my earliest days. So that's how my voice developed. Yeah, I don't want to say it was easy, but I mean, did it come easy to you?

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it did. Yeah. There's an effortlessness about it. Yeah, yeah. That's always been. I never tried too hard.

So I'm jealous of people like you, it just, you open your mouth. Well, you look a high voice. What am I saying? Well, but I'm saying is I've, I've, I've, Your voices like sort of sometimes on the edge of falsetto. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I like my voice best.

Yeah, no, I like you. Thank you. You sing very well that way. Thank you. God bless you. So, you know, there's this night. I know you've told the story a thousand times, but I still think it's important to share here.

You know, you uptown theater. You guys win this talent contest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was, yeah. The Delphonics were your competition? No, it wasn't. Okay, okay, so blame the Internet.

It's funny, stories get convoluted. I knew the Delphonics when we were teenagers. Because my girlfriend went to Overbrook high school, and they were overbooked guys. And so I knew them, and they had a record out right before, well, how do I put this? I was friends with Tommy Bell, and he said, I got this group, and I just, I just did this song, tell me what you think. And it was, it was called, He Don't Really Love You.

And it was like, I thought at the time, I thought it was the greatest song I ever heard. And it's like, forget about it. But that's not about the Uptown. Right around then, we were trying to figure out how to get a record deal. And so we did the old traditional thing. We did a talent show at the Uptown Theater.

It was like being at the Apollo, the Philadelphia version. And Jay's Brown band backed us up. So it was it, it was the earlier version, like the Clyde Stubblefield version? It wasn't the Bootsie band yet, was it? No, no, it was, it was Macyo. Oh, wow. And I mean, for somebody who loves soul music, you must have been like,

I was, it's funny, I was oblivious to it. I just took it for granted. I'd, I'd go in the dressing room and see Smokey Robertson and go, hey, man, how you doing? You know, that's the way it was. It was, I don't know what was the matter with me or how I didn't, how I didn't. Did you feel like you belonged? Yes.

Okay. That's what it was. Well, you did. I did belong and I felt like I belonged. So, so, and they treat, everybody treated me like I was part of the whole world. So I, uh, one, we won the contest and Jimmy Bishop, which was, uh, it was a, a DJ for WDAS in Philadelphia. He, he hooked me up. He was kind of trying to be.

my manager, and he hooked me up with Kenny and Leon. And we did, Girl, I Love You. Yeah. And that was it, yeah. Is it true you worked for them a little bit as a studio musician and were part of session? I used to work at the, I used to hang out and work at Cigna Sound where all that stuff happened. Was it just whoever was around? Yeah, I was kind of on the B team.

I wasn't, you know, but I played with all those guys. I mean, I sat in rooms and played with them. Yeah. What was it about Gamble and Huff? you know, I mean, they're legendary now, and, you know, they're giving credit, obviously they didn't do it alone, but they're giving credit as kind of creating

what we know is the Philly Sound, at least the popular version of it. What was it about them that you can tell us that made them so, you know, as producers maybe is what I'm after? Well, Kenny was a really good organizer, and Leon is a great piano player, musician. I mean, just great.

And, I mean, I learned so much from Leon. I just used to sit there and watch them. But who could say what made them great? They were a great combination. They knew how to do it. Yeah. And they picked good people. They picked people just off the street, man.

I mean, you know, they're early people like Barbara Mason and the intruders and people like that. They were just guys that were, I mean, I worked at a clothing store. store with one of the guys that was the intruders, you know, and Ridge Avenue. I mean, you know, it's, that's the people that they picked to do this shit, you know? Well, it's, you know, Sacks has a similar story, you know, like Boker T lived like a block away. That's what I mean. Motown, too, even Motown. I mean, they pick people out of high school. That's, that's how it worked, you know, it was. Did you have a sense there was sort of a magical thing happening, or was it just that was your world? It was my world. I mean,

I knew something that was happening, for sure. I mean, I loved that. And how did your parents perceive your musical aspirations? My parents were both musicians, too. So they were nothing but encouragement. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

I'm curious, because most of your generation suddenly gets, you know, it's the summer of love, psychedelic. You seem to resist. I had nothing to do with that. Well, that's what I'm asking. It's very rare, you know what I mean? Because usually somebody has some psychedelic fuzz, drip, single in the corner. You don't really have that.

You sort of just ignored all of it. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. You know, they didn't even like the Beatles in Philadelphia. It took them a while to figure that out. Yeah. You know, it's a very insular place. It still is. Philadelphia is a very insular town in every way.

culturally, musically, everything. Is that because it's sort of in the shadow of New York, you think? I think that has a lot to do with it. I found that in my own life. Yeah. Dealing with people from Philadelphia. Yeah. They have this kind of New York thing.

And Chicago has its own version of a New York thing. Because living in Chicago, all we ever hear about is New York. It's a similar thing. There's an automatic chip on the shoulder. Right? Yeah, it's like, but it's funny because, well, New York is dismissive of Philadelphia. And Philadelphia has the chip on their shoulder about it. Yeah.

You know, they try to be New York, and they know they never will be. Yeah. It's sort of the premise of Rocky. Yeah. So you meet John Oates when you were both in college. Yeah. We're both senior.

He's a freshman in Temple, yeah. So was there an immediate personal kinship, immediate musical kinship? What was it about what you were? It was student stuff. I mean, we became roommates because we both were slightly out of town, and we needed a place to stay,

so we got this apartment in Center City. And I knew that, well, actually, I met him at a show at the Delphi ballroom. He had a band, and I had the temp tones, and I met him at this thing. And so we kind of knew each other, sort of, in a way. And then we both needed roommates, we got together, And we would sit there, he'd be sitting in a quarter play in the guitar.

It's like college stuff. He sit there and play in the guitar, and I'd say, well, let me sing along, you know, and that kind of stuff. And that developed into, maybe we'll try writing a couple songs together, although we never really wrote a lot together. And, but we would, I said, okay, let's perform together. So we had the duo thing, the two, the two guys I played mostly piano, electric piano, and he played guitar. and we got a following going in Philadelphia, and then we moved to New York. Was the foundational idea with you too,

like, I'll do my songs, you do yours, what kind of work together? Was that the mindset? We realized early on that we had very different musical styles, and it was hard, it was kind of my ability to put it together to make it sound like one thing, because it was very disparate. And he's always been that way.

He likes country music and he likes folk music and he likes bluegrass music. I didn't know anything about that stuff. And still don't really. I like bluegrass, but that's about it. And it was hard for me to match that all up. And I think, truthfully, we never matched it up. We did variations of it. We'll get there because I want to take a slight detour.

You end up in a band called Gulliver. Well, that wasn't really a band. That was an after-hour. session. So it was ever a band? No, Sigma gave us free time. So we would play. We were all session musicians.

And we decided to put something together. It wasn't even really my idea. I was just there. Listening to the music, there's not much of a footprint of you. No, I was not really there. You had the one single as a vocal, but most of the record's not even you singing.

Yeah, I wasn't really there. I mean, in any creative way. Okay. And then this guy... You know, reading it cold on a piece of paper, it's like, why did you go that direction? Mm-hmm. No, I get that because there were those weird records in this time where somebody would just throw around some money and be like, okay. That's what it was.

Okay. Um, did you ever any interactions in with Elektra and Jack Holsman? I did. I like Jack Holsman. He's such an interesting character in the history. You know, you look at who he signed. Yeah. You know, whether it's a.

Tim Buckley or at the doors or... Yeah, no, he was... Love and... All that stuff, you know? I mean, he was... That was, I was... That was the best part of it is I got to go and meet those guys, or meet him, sorry, not meet those guys, meet him during that period of time.

That was quite cool. Yeah, I sort of missed the age of the impresario, right? Yeah, well, I went from him to Amit, so I was kind of like, I was still in that bag. Yeah. How do you end up getting, well, I mean, I start here and maybe I'm projecting on you, but, I mean, to be signed to Atlantic Records, knowing your love of blues, soul, R&B, I mean, it must have blown your mind that they were interested in you.

It was, man. It was a great, but that was... That was 1970? In the 70, no, 72. Okay. I was there, man, you know, in the rooms with Aretha and everything. I mean, a reef, bar. Did that impress you?

Did that get your attention? Sort of. Sort of. But yet, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, I didn't feel in awe of any of it, you know, I would meet these people and, and, uh, they were all just, you know, they were people. Yeah. And, and, you know, I remember Bob Dylan wandering in with this, with,

thing and, and just sit there in the corner like this, you know, that kind of crazy. And, uh, it was, they were some interesting times. And those amazing, you know, New York musicians, you know, they were... So you can give me the simple version if you want, but how is, what was the Atlantic's interest in you with, oh, it's like, what did, what do they see you as? Well, they were, you know, that was that, that was the time, excuse me, that was the time of the singer-songwriter, you know, 1972, we think about it, you know. And, and I, I, we auditioned for, for Ahmet and a reef. Okay. And I sat there and played the piano

and played those, whatever songs we had compiled in college. Yeah. And a reef saw something, I don't know, whatever he saw. And he said, let's go. And he's amazing. I mean, I love to be. I have my own brief story if you want to hear it. Go. So in the mid-90s, they came to me, said they want you to

They wanted us to be on a charity record for Special Olympics. And they said, you know, give you, it's Christmas. And so we'll give you some money you can work with whoever you want to. And I said, I want to work with a reef Mardine. And I met a reef. I talked to him on the phone, but I met him with the first time in the session, suit, that old school vibe. Oh, yeah.

And it's the only time I've ever done this in my whole life. I said, you tell me what to do. You produce me. I just want to, I'm just going to be. the artist you produce. And he did this beautiful job, did the string arrangement, everything. It was what a pleasure. And of course, I got to hear some of the great stories about working with BGs and stuff like that. He was a true, true gentleman. Right? In the very old school, you know. It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah, he was amazing. Another one who could work with anybody,

for you to say, do whatever you want with me, that's not usually what he liked to do. He was so adaptive. It didn't matter what you threw at him. He knew how to deal with it. Okay. You know, he was, he would produce, well, okay, in succession, he produced, you're so vain, then a man and let Chinette from, from me, and then the next, a week later, started an average white band, and then produced, uh, uh, who was the other guy? He just died. Oh, never mind. Anyway, but all these different, he would just go seamlessly. And then Young Gifted and Black, right, in the middle of it all. He could just do anything.

Yeah. And he was like Quincy, you know? I mean, I equate him with Quincy. Yeah, I still am amazed I got to work with him. Yeah, it stands out as one of those beautiful moments in my life. You were a lucky guy, man. Oh, thank you. I'm glad we shared that because most people wouldn't know who a reef is.

I know. He didn't get the people. didn't get the publicity that like Q got and all that, but man, he was, he was something. So I know you said this was the time of the, of, you know, singer, songwriter duo was, was, did you have a different aspiration than that or were you sort of like, this is what people are into? I'm, I'm sort of curious. It was kind of what people were into, yeah, but I was trying to, to me, it was all transitional. I was always moving. I wanted to get out of that time and move. Yeah, because I was struck listening to the, especially the first album that you guys did,

for Atlantic. It's a bit anodyne, very war-polished. And I know you like your gut bucket R&B, so it sort of surprised me. It was, that was, that was sort of a student aspiration album, like trying to be something different than what you really are. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a typical thing that college kids do. You know, they want to expand from what they're, what they, you know, what they really are and what they might want to be. But at that early stage, you know, obviously you're, you know, major label, it's Atlantic. I mean, it's the whole impriture of the whole thing. What was your

hope for it? I didn't really know. I wasn't sure. I think I was too young to have, I certainly didn't have a master plan other than to move through it, you know? Yeah. I'm struck, because, you know, vocally, it would kind of go back and forth, you know, to me, is not the strong, your partner, is not the strongest singer as a lead singer, you know. I was surprised there wasn't more focus on you as the singer because you have, you know, obviously. Well, I was being more passive. You're trying to be team player? Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. I was still looking for myself. You know, I knew what I was. I felt comfortable, as we talked about before in being that person, that Philly guy in that world. but I was trying to figure out how to go outside of that and I don't know what, realize something else, you know. Yeah. And when you get into that bigger world, you really do feel that.

Yeah, yeah. Like you go to London or something. It's like, wow, this is a whole other trip over here. Yeah, so I was like scrambling around mentally and creatively. Yeah. So first album does not great. Is that fair to say? Yes.

I'm kind of glad because no, and then not the people don't. know about it. No, but I mean, you know, I mean, it's nice sometimes to tell a story knowing that the, that the end result of the toil is success, you know, so you can look at that sort of in a rosy way and say, well, it didn't work, but maybe there was a reason, and maybe it's a good thing because we went this other direction. Yeah. And again, second album, you know, it seems like there's still some search for something, a reef's producing. Yeah, but that, I would call that a success. People still talk about that album. Well, and I have your first kind of a breakout moment with she's gone.

Yeah, but beside the hit, you know, which wasn't a hit even then, but people still talk about that album as, as, like, as, you know. What, what, how do they quantify it, you think? They, they, they, they, they, it would be, I don't know, people get emotional about it. Head of, head of its time or. Eh, they just say it was, it signified a time in their life. Oh, you know, the kind of things. Yeah.

Well, certain records. crystallize a moment? Yeah. Summer. You didn't have a way of... But it had... It influenced a lot of people. I mean, I was told, you know,

to various musicians over the years... That it influenced them and really inspired them, you know, all that kind of stuff. But, I mean, I think that it was a good album. And I... I think there was glimmers of what I was trying to do in that album. I think the song of Banda Luncheonette is a particularly cool song.

Yeah. But again, I look at it as transitional. Okay. Was there, because you had some traction finally with She's Gone, obviously you're the lead on that. Was there some feeling there that the energy should kind of shift more towards you as a focus? Or was it this idea again of the... I think it was.

I think it was starting to become evident that there had to be somebody driving the bus. How did that work internally? Not really sure. I got my own versions of these things. I think what's happened in more recent times is the result of it. Okay.

So, yeah, there's a C there where it's like, I thought we were one thing and now we're another. And in my position, and again, you tell me what's different for you. My position, I was like, well, I'm not responsible for the way the people are reacting to what we're doing here. Exactly. Don't we want to lean towards where of the energy is?

I said, if you can keep up, keep up. Otherwise. You're ringing bells in my head over here. So third album, what was the vibe at Atlantic on the third album? Because, you know, the end of the stories you guys end up getting drunk. But what was the vibe going into the third album? That album was weird, I got to say. I mean, I, you know, objectively, it was, I mean, I did.

it with Todd. And when I say I did it, I pretty much did that album. That was the beginning when I said, okay, I'm driving the bus. But I didn't even where the bus was going. And it became a very strange album. Right. Was there something you were trying to do that? I think it was, I had just really settled in in New York City.

And I was being influenced by the cacophony and the chaos. It was a bit more glam. Yeah. And all that stuff was going on. Yeah, it was, that's the period of time. And, and Todd, of course, Todd being pretty out there at the time. And we concocted that album, and Atlantic didn't understand it, you know, I mean, the simple as that. Yeah.

So that was when, I think, I don't know. I think it was really business things. I think it was my manager, Metola, that really moved me away from Atlantic. I think otherwise I might have stayed there anyway. Okay. So it wasn't so much of them getting dropped. It was like, kind of like, we need to part ways. Yeah, yeah.

When they did drop you, two questions. One, how did you take that? Did you see it was a good thing because now you can go find somebody who's interested or, and then secondly, did you think, okay, this, this partnership's not working the way that. I thought the part, well, you want the truth? I knew the partnership. wasn't working around that. Yeah.

Yes. I knew that we were not heading in the same direction creatively or whatever. And, and, but we had, we had a deal with RCA even before we left. Oh, I didn't know that. So there wasn't really being dropped. It was just like, okay, we'll leave here, we go there. There was no period where we were like, we weren't homeless, you know. Did you have a moment where you thought, okay, I need to go on my own here or kind of put together

my own thing or... I think I was... I think that maybe I felt like I need... I agree that maybe it was a time to try a fresh place. Okay. Yeah. Right. So I'm just, because I'm still confused, so did you have a feeling that you should go solo there,

or did you think, okay, well, we got the deal, it ain't broke, don't fix it, keep going, and just keep moving forward. Kind of like you said, it might focus was just on always movement. I can't remember when I finally decided, it was around that time, actually. I'm really thinking about it. I met Robert Fripp, and we were, and it was around 1974, yeah.

It was then. And Robert and I became friends, and that was the first time that I started feeling a spark of kindred spirit, creativity that I wanted to move and move away and work with somebody different, completely different. And so eventually I wound up working with Robert. And those plans got scotch for various other reasons, you know. Yeah. So, okay, you're on RCA now. Obviously it was a different record business then, but did you feel any particular pressure because now you're in a new situation and now you have to kind of

prove something? I never was a person who felt particular pressure. I just felt like I'm doing it and let the chips fall. Okay. You know, and I got, I won't say I got lucky or whatever it was, but I wrote Sarah Smile. And that's so. We're jumping ahead on my story. No, but that was the first, that was the first song on Orsie Hay.

Yeah. But you know, there were two singles before that. They were. So again, because I'm so, you remember me, things I forgot. Well, trust me. I mean, I've, you know, I spent three hours this morning doing a deep dive on your life. I don't even remember which one the first singles were. Okay.

I got it right here. Tell me. Is it spelled carmelia? Camellia. Camellia, sorry. That was the first thing. That was an Oat song. Okay.

Second single, alone too long. An Oat's song. They ran with John Oates twice and then they decided to go with Daryl. Okay, because I'm saying. I mean, we know how the story ends, which is why it's funny, right? And again, not casting shade. It's just the music business is horish about selling records.

It hasn't changed. It's just digital numbers now. But a point is you're standing there in your prime. You've already had a charting single. The only charting single the duo has ever had. You're in a new situation, and they start the new situation with two songs by the other guy. Yeah.

Very interesting. Very interesting. Were there political forces at play? I haven't a clue. I never, truthfully, I never thought about it. Wow. But I would. Now I'm realizing, I don't, you know, it's, I can't put myself back in that place.

But you know what happened is that an R&B station in, I won't say Akron, but it was, it was someplace. Somewhere over there. I'll say Akron. It wasn't Akron. started playing Sarah Spile. Oh, so it was one of those things, like an organic. And it became an R&B hit. So they didn't even release it as a single song.

RCA didn't even, they weren't even paying any attention to it. And the local promotion guy that worked the R&B stations said, you know, people are playing this song in the Midwest, they're just going, and it's kind of breaking out Ohio. And RCA won, oh, okay, we'll try this. I mean, it's a Stone Cold Classic. And then they put it on pop radio, and it worked. But it started on an R&B radio.

Number four nationally. Oh, well. And then, well, we'll save that for part two of our interview. But what's funny about that is, you know, that's, you know, so while you're having that moment in your life, I'm in a cold basement in Chicago listening to you, you know what I mean? So it's kind of a funny thing. Yeah, I think that's part one.

So you got to stay tuned for part two. All right, where we get to all the really good stuff. Oh, ha. I wonder what that's going to be.