The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Daryl Hall, Part 2 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Billy Corgan continues his deep dive with Daryl Hall in Part 2, where Daryl opens up about his hitmaking philosophy (“don’t think about it”), the unexpected re-release of She’s Gone, and sharing the stage with icons like David Bowie and Stevie Wonder. He reflects on the creation of Rich Girl, the pressures from Tommy Mottola and Atlantic Records, and the turning point that led Hall & Oates into their legendary 80s run. The conversation gets candid about fame and the industry politics that left Hall feeling “trapped” even at the height of success. He also shares how Live From Daryl’s House became his purest form of self-expression and explains why restoring old homes feels like “living inside art.” Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point, and that's what I do. Because you've been such a successful hit maker. Do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because, again, your ability to move through genres. My philosophy is don't think about it. Yeah. I worked with, we open for everybody from David Bowie to Billy Paul and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on.

So only in the record business, does your old label release a song that you had before to capitalize on your success with the other label that you're now signed to? Yeah. And, of course, we're talking about She's Gone, which they reissue becomes, I think, number seven. Yeah. You must have been like, okay, like, sure. I wasn't complaining. Right?

I just thought, well, okay, you screw it up the first time, so try and do it right the second time. Yeah, and of course, it's a classic now, which is funny how those things work. Yeah. How long, how much after that kind of was reissued did Tavares do their cover, which was also a hit, number one, R&B? I'm not, my brain, I'm forgetting what came out first. Tavares did it, but I don't know if they did it before, before our re-released. I think Tavarst did it, and then ours were, Because their version is great, too.

Yeah, that was good. Yeah. Really cool. I'm curious because, okay, now you're having your first true success. You've got two hit singles. I mean, for people like us, it's like, wow, I mean, it's two hits singles. It's actually happening. Yeah. I'm that guy, right?

What was your personal life like then? It was, well, I was still, I was living in the village in the you, or you or and with Sarah Allen. And I was on the road a lot. Right. You know. We're doing those package tours where it's like you guys.

I was playing with everybody, man. I worked with, we opened for everybody from David Bowie to Billy Paul and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on. Yeah. Cheech and Chong. Wow. No, we didn't open.

No, they opened for us. Yeah. How'd you get on with? Bowie, he must, I don't know, I knew David did, he must have loved what you were doing. Yeah, I was, this was too early to, he, he was, this was the second show he played in the United States. Is this Ziggy Stardust time? Yeah, this was, this is the first Ziggy thing.

Okay. And it was in Memphis, Tennessee. And I, it blew my mind to tell you the truth. But his, but he's so good. But, you know, he was, they were treating him like he was, I don't know what. You know, they would carry him around. And it was, oh, it was, it was. Well, that's when he was with Tony DeFries.

Yeah, all that. Tony DeFries was charging him 50%, putting him in limos and bankrupting him. That whole Tony DeFries situation, oh, man, it was, he had these guys in karate suits walking around. I mean, it was stupid. But, you know, I love David, man. I mean, I, yeah. I'm curious because I don't think there's any information that I saw because you've been such a successful hitmaker. Do you have a particular philosophy about making hits?

Because, again, your ability to move through genres, you know? If I have a philosophy, it's that I don't know what a hit is. Okay. I am always surprised if something is successful commercially or not. So you wouldn't fall into a trap of thinking, okay, this one's going to be a hit. Uh-uh. I mean, sometimes I think it's going to happen and it doesn't happen at all. Yeah.

Yeah, sometimes I say to my fans, you know, if I knew how to recreate it, I would, you know. Oh, yeah, they always say, what's your formula? Are you kidding? That's why I ask more of a philosophy, you know. Yeah, no, my philosophy is don't think about it. Yeah. I do think it's remarkable that obviously there's cultural influences in your music as you go through the eras, but you seem overall immune to trend. Does that, is that a fair comment, you think? Yeah, yeah.

I think I'm out of the, you know, be generous kind of thing. You know, it's, I, I try and even, I don't do it at all now. I don't even pay any attention to trend, but even in days when it was more important because of the way radio worked and all that. Yeah.

I still only just picked and chose little things to try and be relevant. and congruent with the other people that were on the radio. Yeah. You know, although my stuff wound up not really sounding like everybody. Yeah. Were you receiving any particular business pressure to go in a particular direction at that time? Yeah.

I always used to get like Tommy Mottola pressure, you know, that kind of stuff, you know. Can you define that? You know. It would be very good. if you would, uh, stop playing the guitar songs. Stay with the piano, you know. Yeah, I had a manager once tell me, you write songs that girls like, what is all this heavy, loud guitar music? He said, you should just stick with the pretty girl songs. Oh, yeah, that was 1890, which is before all. I wrote, you made my dreams. He said, what's that?

Charles Dickens? What is that supposed to mean? Oh, my God. Okay, so we're, we're at the, uh, we're at the watershed moment of the second Atlantic album, rich girl goes number one, great, still one of great songs all time. Is there a fresh story there about that song? I don't know if there's a fresh story, there is the story. All right, tell me this story. I mean, I've told this story, but it was Sarah Allen's college boyfriend,

who she still hung out, not hung out with, but, you know, knew. And he came to our house, our apartment, and, uh, I was tripping or something. I don't know. You know, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was and, and, and, and he happened to be an heir to a fast food place in Chicago, it's Chicago, Chicago is it, he was one of those kind of things, yeah. And, uh, and he left, I went, man, he's a rich boy, but he's gone too far.

And that's, and then I, and I sat down, he's a rich boy and he's gone too far. that's about as far as I got. And then I said, no, that don't sound right. So I changed it to rich girl and then finish the song. I'm curious at this stage because I know how the music business works all too well. There had to be someone in your ear telling you at this time to go solo. There had to be. My real friends.

Okay. As opposed to the business people. Was there any internal dilemma for you of following that? there was a there was a lot of people and then this this would own for quite a while where people were saying why are you just why did you just are you are you are you are you are you innately a loyal person I am actually I mean I do consider myself very loyal yeah and and to a fault sometimes and and and and as I did this I you know I bucked it and and and and and and went with Robert and did this and did those two records.

Yeah. Robert. And that was when I was actually making a statement going like, okay, I'm doing a solo, excuse me, a solo thing. But I got so much pushback from my manager, Ms. Hola, and the record company, it just made it impossible. They sabotaged it. That's really what happened. I mean, as simple as that.

Is it because they're like, this is working? Don't mess it up. The old cash cow, they liked it. They thought they thought a holo notes was more viably, was more commercial to their interests. Do you wish now that you had, he did that call? I wish that I would have done more with Robert, yes. Yeah, and he does too. I mean, Robert and I are close friends.

And another total gentleman. Yeah, a great guy, really great guy. and I just saw him a couple weeks ago. And I wish that we had done more together. Yes, I do. I mean, he really, he was into it. He was pushing for it. He said, let's go, let's, you know,

he wanted to call it League of Gentlemen, you know. He said, okay. And you'd be the singer, and then we'll write songs and did it. And then I just got, it got too much pressure. I mean, I was living in a bubble. I will be first to say that I was almost semi-hip by it all because I was kept in a situation where I didn't really have any advisors. They did that back then very well.

In the business. I mean, everybody was on the side against me, and they were all in collusion with each other, whether it be lawyers or accountants or record company or the whole thing, management. And they were all saying the same thing, stick with loads, stick with loads, stick with loads. And then I did and did the Voices album, and that was around the time when I was, could have made that choice of either going and doing some- This is 77.

No, this was more like 79. Okay. And whether I was going to do this thing with Robert, or I was gonna make an album for RCA. Yeah. And I did it, and then, I don't know what you want to call it, fortunately. They kind of buried it around.

Well, it became, I mean, that was kids of my list and all that stuff. Okay. So then it was successful. Hmm. I do remember, because I was a fan, I do remember when you seemed to, at least publicly, felt like you guys made this pivot to what became more of an 80s sound.

I was surprised that when you went there, you went there a lot earlier than a lot of people. So in many ways, I think you were probably more influential in that space than I would have given you credit for, because in my mind, that stuff was more like mid-80s, but like it really starts about 1980, which was, um, uh, kiss on my list. And, um, was that something that you had decided in turn? Like, what, what, where'd that come from? It wasn't a, it wasn't a decision. It was the fact that we were, that we were produced, producing ourselves pretty much, uh, with, with the engineer. And I was,

you know, I had been spending most of my time in England. And, uh, I think that that's why it, I, you picked up on the, I picked up one because it was, it was happening faster over there. And so there was, there was that influence. What was attractive about that? Because there's, you know, 80s music is kind of cool. It's alien in a way, but it's got a coldness too, but that's what makes it pretty. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, it was just a different sound. Yeah. So there's nothing like you had this kind of moment. It's just like you just kind of drifted there. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's interesting. You guys go on this halacious run So you lost that loving feeling

Goes to number five Kiss on my list number one You make my dreams come true number five Private Eyes number one I can't go for that That was number one Man Eater number one Obviously not all in a row

And out of touch number one That's like that's like crazy land Success It was It was, whatever it was that we were doing, people were suddenly really liked. What do you think it was about that, looking back? It's very hard for me to tell you. It doesn't sound like other people.

It sounds very much like me. To my ears, it still sounds super fresh, which is weird. Well, that's what everybody says. It's like the kind of thing if it came out today, it would still work, which is weird. That's part of its lasting success. These songs, I mean, I play them on stage all the time without John. And nobody seems to, you know, it sounds the same. Well, we'll just leave that way for a moment.

Okay, now I asked you before what your life was like when you started. Okay, now you're in a totally different stratosphere of success. I mean, the whole world knows who you are, especially back then. You're on MTV every five seconds. I mean, you're probably being recognized. That whole MTV thing, I mean, that took it to another place because it coincided exactly with the initial success of right place, right time. Totally right place, right time. And we were dominating that whole network.

I mean, I was a guest DJ all the time, VJ all the time, and, you know, they just give us five hours and do whatever you want, that kind of stuff. Now, for those paying attention to our conversation. I mean, you are the dominant vocal force in this moment of high achievement. And it's, you know, I'm not saying it's unprecedented. But you're in that sort of weird beetle stratosphere where you have this run of hits that's like, I mean, it's only a few groups that have ever had anything remotely like that. Well, in the 80s, just me and Billy Joel. Okay.

We were the two. Okay, so give me a little bit what your life is like then. Let's start that. It was the old cliche. It was like a, it was like a, a whirlwind, and we were, a hurricane, we were in the hot. Did you enjoy it? Not really.

No, if you want the truth, I didn't find it that pleasant. Because that wasn't my motivation to get to do it the first place. Yeah. You know, I'm a musician. I don't, you know, I'm not looking for attention, if you want, you know. And it was, it was, it was, I couldn't go anywhere. It was, you know, I couldn't go out of the house. I had people bothered me all the time.

I couldn't go shopping, couldn't go to the supermarket, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I didn't like it. Were you still living in the city, though? No, I was living up here. Okay. You got the hell out. Yeah. Well, I still had an apartment in New York, but I was living in Connecticut.

Yeah. And, but it was, it was just really hard. And then combine that with whatever happens on the road. That was big 80s time, you know, with all the excess and everything. Thank God I was in a drug. I was in the drug guy. But it was some wild. Yeah.

What's your relationship like with your musical partner at this time? Because, you know, at least from an observational point of view. And again, I was listening to you guys back in the 70s. So I was aware of the partnership. But at this point, I mean, you are like the face of the thing. Who cares what it's called? I mean, it's very much you that's singing the songs on TV. What was your relationship?

like within we had a pretty good one i have to say i mean you know it was we were together in the midst of all this so that drew that sort of bond you yeah jewish drew us together so it didn't bring anything out that you look back now that sort of shows the seeds of kind of where you guys ended up doesn't make sense only in the small ways okay i'm curious too because there was there was that interesting time like you know bowie has let's dance he's he's playing stadiums Tina Turner has this massive come back. She's playing stadiums. And I'm not saying you guys didn't have a lot of success. You were obviously huge. But I mean, there had to be some point where you thought I could have that for me. This is the big question mark. And this came up in another podcast where the guy

said, yeah, I was a student at a Maris, not Maris College, but a Catholic college in Western Pennsylvania, and you guys played in the assembly room. And it was like 1982. He said, even we were thinking, why are they here? Why are they playing here? And ask anybody, and they're going to say, ask, ask anybody in the, in the, in the, the, the, the agent that was around back in those days, and they're going, why the f*** did he do what he did you? You know, why were you staying in holiday he ends up playing high schools when you should have been playing stadiums? Okay.

But back to my point, because to me this is sort of the crux of what I'm after is, I mean, if it was me sitting in front of a TV watching my contemporaries, who I'm... I used to say, why is so-and-so doing this? Why am I here? And I would get double talk. I would just get down. Yeah.

Why are they making all this money? And I'm, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, didn't the math kick in at some point where you thought, not only can I get out of this, but I, but I, the math kicked in, everything kicked in, but I was trapped. Okay. Okay. if you haven't experienced it, it's sort of a haunting. It's like the famous movie of Gaslight, right? It's like, you're being gaslit and- You're being gas-lid.

You're being gas-lake. You'll say stuff to you like, don't get too full of yourself, you know? Yeah. All that stuff. Or always somehow the wolf would be at the door. Yeah. There will always be some reason why the money was, the money's tight, you know, that kind of- Yeah, or you're only good as your last hit.

Yeah, yeah, any of that quote. I'm abusing the quote, and again, it's the internet, so if it's not your quote, please tell me. But I saw a quote where you said something along the lines of, every artistic form has its golden age, and unfortunately, mine ended in 1990. Is that something you said, do you think? I said that? I saw it attributed to you, but it doesn't mean... Every artist has a golden age that ended in 19. No, no. Every, every artist, sorry, every artistic form has its golden age, and unfortunately, my, what I was good at, or what I was sort of recognized for, that ended in 1990.

No, I didn't say that. Okay. But what I did say is close to that, and somehow that could turn. I said that every era has an artistic situation has its gold age. Oh, okay. And that age ended in 1990. Okay. And nothing to do with me.

Okay. Okay. Okay. God bless you. I didn't mean it that way. What I took it as is that, you know, tide shift and oftentimes great success is followed by sort of a period of confusion because it's almost impossible to sustain that level of intensity.

Yeah. Well, you have to, one has to adapt and evolve. I mean, I think that when I look back on it, my period is a, quote, pop star, whatever you want to call that, I think that that kind of wound down around 1990. Sure. But then something else kicked in. Yeah.

And so I think they did coincide with the end of a certain golden age of pop music. Yeah. And now I think that I might have done. that now because I think the pop music is bigger than it ever was now. But it's a different kind of pop music. True. It's a whole different. I, you would have, in your, in your youthful prime, I mean, you would have still been able to be a dominant force because your ability to move. I probably would have be able to swim in those waters. I take that bet on you. I'm not,

my show is not about gossip, so please understand why I'm asking this. There's not a lot of information about your relationship with Sarah Allen. So I'm more interested in the musical part of the partnership. Okay. I can tell you both, really, even though this is gossip. I mean, Sandy and I, I call her name, Sarah of Sandy. We were together for a long time, almost in 28 years, something like that. And she was, and her sister, I always have to add her to it, were very influential. I mean, A lot of the best songs in that period of time were written by the three of... Private Eyes, I can't go for that, Man-Eater.

Right, well, I can't go for that. There's a lot of misattribute... What's the word? Misattribute... Misattribute. Yeah, there you go. That one. We'll agree on that we don't know how to say it.

Yeah, however you say that. Two, in writer's credits. There are... You can't go by writer's credit. Okay. But, and I'll say that for No Can Do. I wrote that song. Nobody else.

Okay. But, uh, um, But you mentioned, yeah, Kiss and Private Eyes. Yeah. That was Allen's sisters and me. And I, the Kiss of my list was a song I wrote with Jana, Alan. She was only 20 years old. And she came up with it with the chorus.

And then I fleshed out the verse. And that was a real collaboration. And with Private Eyes, she brought Private Eyes to the table. She had written this kind of template for the song with a guy named Warren Pash. And they gave it to me, and I altered it and changed it. And then Sarah and I wrote the words. So, I mean, these were collaborations between them. And Sandy really had a lot to do with this stuff.

Yeah. But I guess what I'm interested in is your life in 50-plus years in music. It's defined by these partnerships. and in this case, it's a personal relationship. And again, I'm not sort of after the gossip part of it. It's like, do you feel good that your life is defined by partnerships, or do you still have some part of you that thought I should have sort of stood in my own light at some point? Does that make sense? I don't, I'm not trying to sign anything to you.

I'm just curious. When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point, and that's what, that's what I do. I mean, you know, I'm the, I'm not, I'm, when I'm on stage, I don't have any part. It's just me. You know, and when I'm creating, sometimes I have partners within a project, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I write songs on my own. Yeah.

It's just, it's flexible. Yeah. I recently interviewed Sam Moore, unfortunately, he just passed away. I think it might have even been his last interview. And I was asking him about his partnership with Dave. And I said, looking back, how do you feel about Dave? And he goes, I don't think much of Dave. Well, I hate to say it, but that seems to be a common thing, especially with duos.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, is it there, ultimately, they're, by nature, there becomes a power imbalance at some point. Yeah. It wasn't any different in my band. I think it's inevitable. I mean, well, even, even in a band, usually a band has two people doing things. That's so, that's more great bands, everybody does something, which is where it gets wild. True, true, but you know what I mean?

It's like, look at the Beatles. I mean, you know, it was Lenin and McCartner. And then there was the other- But isn't it crazy with the Beatles that, like, you got the guitar player can also write hits. That's just where- Well, that's what made, I mean- That's where your mind just blows.

It's like, how do you have three guys you can write songs? That's the best kind of band. But I think more commonly, it's usually two guys that expand upon themselves and form a band. Yeah. What were we talking about? I can't remember anyway. Well, no, we were talking about, I asked you, and I was sort of

asking, you know, your life is defined in many ways by your partnerships, you know. Obviously, there's the one that everybody knows because it's the name of, it was the name of the door for 50 years, but even in your personal life with this 28-year relationship, there was a musical component to that partnership, too. I think a lot of people's lives are defined by their partnerships outside of music. Yeah. I think that's part of life. But not everybody lives it in the glare of the public. That's the difference. That's the difference. Which is why I'm asking you these inviaries. of questions. But I, my partnerships are varied. So it's not, I'm, I guess I'm not creatively monogamous. I like that. I like to talk a little bit about Daryl's House because it's such a great show.

I love the spirit of Daryl's House. I mean, it's one of those shows as a musician. The first time I watched it, I was like, this is great. This is just musicians celebrating music, having good time. I know it kind of came in a somewhat spontaneous way, right? It wasn't some game plan to just kind of happen. No, I just, I had one of those moments and I just went like, wait a minute, instead of travel in the world,

why don't I do something where the world comes to me and in my house, you know, everything opposite land. And instead of having an audience, no audience, and just have a have a good time. Yeah. I was watching this morning your episode with Booker T. Oh, yeah.

And knowing you love that music from Stacks and Sigma. But I mean, there's got to be that little kid in you that's still like, oh, my God, I'm hanging out with Booker Tee. Yeah. Well, I get flashes. That happens a lot with some of my idols that have been on the show. Maybe the most extreme, too, would be one of my early ones with Smokey, one of my early ones with Smokey, when he came there, and I was like, wait a minute, Smoky came up here to do this.

Yeah, yeah. And then more recently was when I did it with the OJs, and that was like, again, baby food, that's Philly. Yeah. And we went to a place. And that's when I really float, start floating, you know. And Booker T, I remember singing, ain't no love, ain't no love.

And I was like, yeah, he wrote that song, man. I was always once a time. I'm a teenager and I love this. Yeah, yeah. What do you want people to understand about Daryl's house? Meaning, what is the message you want them to walk away with? Because there's a consistency there, but I'd like to hear it in your own work. I think that people, I mean, I don't know if it's necessary,

but I want them to know how spontaneous it really is. and how good my band is. They're outrageous, man. They can do things that blows by mine. He, I mean, we did the show with Robert Fripp, and the song, we did the song Red, one of his... Yeah, King Crimson, right? Yeah, King Crimson Red.

And we didn't even rehearse it. I mean, we rehearsed it separately. Okay. This is what we do. We rehearse things separately, and then we come in the room and we just play it. Everybody works on their own parts. And King Crimson is a little bit.

And Robert flipped out, he went, I have never played this song with anybody that it didn't take them at least three days of hard work to learn how to play. And we did it in 10 minutes. Since we're in this beautiful house, built in the 1700s, like late 17, What is it about your love of old homes and restoring these things?

Like what have you found privately that you didn't find in the world? Well, like many traveling people who have done most of my life, I really have a real desire, a domestic desire to balance it out. That's one thing. Number two, I grew up with this stuff. I grew up in Chester County, Pennsylvania, outside of Philly, and I grew up with old houses. You know, I grew up with colonial and, you know, all that kind of thing. I was born in one.

So is that. And also, you know, some people collect art. I like to live within art, and that's what this is. To me, this is a giant painting. So there you go. Thank you. I used AI for this thing, but I was sort of surprised. I said, tell me your touring history starting in 2000, you know, and it's, you know, it's 43 shows, 65 shows, 35 shows.

I mean, there's this consistent going out and playing. And then 2022, seven shows, and that's it, you know, between you and the Mr. Oates. Well, that was, that was, yeah, I'm trying to remember what, we knew this was kind of, after the pandemic, it's just, I think a lot of people's mind changed on a lot of people's ideas coalesced and thoughts and, you know, focus. Can you quantify that, though? I think that anything, any, any of all those kind of underlying resentments or, oh, wow, or desires to. go off on their own or do what you haven't done in the past. I think the pandemic, that silence, that, you know, that, that, staying in one place and breaking all patterns,

I think that that definitely was the catalyst for us to go in different directions. Okay. So was there a, was it just, just an understanding or you just, okay, that's it? It was more, it was, believe it or not, and people can't believe this, but he, it was his idea. Okay. He, he, uh, he, uh, he wanted to go off and live in Nashville and do whatever the hell he does. Yeah. So here's the setup on, on our, on our finish. Uh, I asked, I asked, uh, AI again.

So it's AI. But I said, where does, where does this group fit on the all, time list of success. And it came back with a very interesting answer. It said in the rock and roll era, 1956 to present day, this hollow notes is the 40th biggest artist of all time. I don't know how you quantify that. Well, it tried to, but I'm saying it's still, it's when you, when you consider the competition, you've done quite well. Well, I mean, that's that's that that's flattering. I don't think it means anything. It does something to me, it does to me because it's, it's, it's, it's, because you know, uh, how can I put it, uh, success can be an illusory thing to the public, depending on who's on television and who gets pushed and what songs get played and what payola and

oh yeah, you know what all those factors. The public eventually figures out who the real deal people are and the Spotify numbers eventually sort of reflect that because that public will come back again again, again to those important artists. Also, I said, I asked where you rank on the duo list, all-time biggest duo, based on the quantification there, in terms of, you know, to measure box office, meaning sales and chart success. So it's very interesting to see it that way, you know, against what it's the Everly Brothers and six number one hit songs. I mean, there's nothing to sneeze at, as we say back in Chicago. So knowing it's ended a bit sour with Mr. Oates, are you cool with that?

I'm not saying that stuff, but I'm saying, are you cool with the choices you've made? Are you like, yeah, okay. I would basically, would you do it all over again? No. Okay. I would have done differently. There's many things I would have done differently.

And they would produce different result, but I don't doubt that they would have been okay with me, whatever that was. But I listened to the wrong people for way too long. I allowed myself, because I'm not a weak person, but I allowed myself to get wrapped up in. Well, if I can give you some confirmation on that, up until you started Daryl's house, I saw you in this kind of amber, preserved an amber kind of way. Big artists, I saw you as the front man. That was easy in my mind.

But I didn't really know you. You know what I mean? It wasn't until Daryl's house was like, oh, this guy's, there's a soulful person in there. Yeah. There's a person who loves music. That is a generous spirit. That's another one of my motivations to have done the show. I felt like people didn't know who I was.

I'd been listening to you for, like I said, I started listening to Sarah Smile. Yeah. And for the first time in 2007-ish or something, I'm like, oh, there's this guy, which is why I'm here. You know, if it was just about music, I don't think I would have come. because it's just a cold pop star shelf somewhere. I hear you, man. Yeah. That really, I should have said that when you asked me about my,

why did I do, Daryl's house? That was one of my main motivations. As I felt, I felt like people didn't know what my motivations were. They were who I was, what kind of person I was. I think they had a completely different idea what kind of person I was. You know how the kids say you get your flowers? Do you feel like you finally got your flowers here in this? Yeah, I got it.

got plenty of flowers. You got a forest of flowers. Yeah, okay, well, God bless. Again, not interested in the gossip, but I think it helps understand because legal issues can be complicated. So, and I'm pretty conversant, I did some pretty deep research

because when the story came out about your lawsuit against John Oates, you know, it's the public, you know, he says, he says, type of thing. I knew right away that, that you wouldn't have been doing what you're doing if there wasn't some sort of legal foundation. That was my first read, but I've actually taken time to understand the suit as presented. But can you, I call it the punter way, can you tell people what the sort of foundational?

I can't really talk about it too much because I'm still in the middle of, but it wasn't a lawsuit. It was a restraining order. Okay. And what that was was to stop him from basically selling the company. Yeah. You had a shared company or you have a shared company. He tried to sell the company without telling me. Yeah.

So. That's all I could say about it. Okay. Great. So, but from an emotion, not great, but you understand. But from emotional point of view, I mean, a 50-year-plus partnership, that must have been an interesting kind of morning of cold water. There was a lot of things. It was, again, after the pandemic, I felt like I was dealing with a different person.

Do you see that in hindsight as this kind of long, simmering? I think so. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the motivation. Yeah. I don't know. I ever will. It took me. It took me. It took me by surprise. I can I just say I gave him a hell

a lot, you know? Yeah. Well, that seems to be the general perception from the fan community. Well, I'm saying that because I have a support to say that. But I mean, I don't know why he did what he did. Yeah. Nobody else does. Can you, I know you're in a legal situation, but can you at least view it empathetically? That may be too picey in a question, but. If you would, him? Well, sometimes the analogy that comes to mind, excuse the bad song analogy, but sometimes people put their cards on the table, right? And once they're cards on the table, you're like, okay, now I finally understand, this

explains some of what's been happening over here. I think that I just explain it as well as I can, but there's things that I don't understand myself. Right. I guess what I'm saying is, at least in my own situation, sometimes when people reveal themselves, it's almost refreshing. It's like, okay, now at least we're dealing with. your version versus my version,

as opposed to this other thing that I thought I was in. At first, there was the initial shock and surprise, and then I knew what I was dealing with. Okay. And then it was adversarial. Okay. If given the opportunity, which is what I'm after,

is there's something you want people to understand about that musical relationship? Because you know how the public is. You're both on the post or you're both on the album. I know in my own life, when I've tried to delineate what I've actually done in my group. You almost get this weird pushback. Like, don't spoil our fantasy. You're like, somehow you're the wizard behind the curtain that's killing the vibe. Yeah. Well, I think there were

certain fans that wanted to believe. And, but I think what I'm finding out subsequently, because I go out there and play in front of people and do what I do, that there wasn't that much of that belief. Okay. I think there was a lot of, okay, I get it. I think, but I do think that there was misunderstanding that I threw him out of the band, which is the opposite. Yeah. Which is the opposite. Yeah, well, that's just the modern life.

They need a bad guy to make the bad guy. Yeah, well, they try to, at first, people try to make me a bad guy, but I think even now they're realizing, at least the people, the end of my shows, realizing. I'm not asking you to comment on the lawsuit, but at least my understanding of lawsuit was he basically goes against the partnership agreement, tries to sell his share of it to primary wave, doesn't tell you you had to give permission for any sale so you don't even get notification and then he puts you in a corner and basically forces you to deal with a third party. You hit it on the head. Okay.

So at least for people watching if they haven't. I'm glad you're saying that. That's good. Yeah. Because then people can hear that. Yeah. Okay. So I'm looking for a happy ending, but maybe there's not a happy ending.

Oh, the happy ending is I'm out there working. And I have an album called D. Well, we didn't even talk about that. Let's talk about it. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah. We did talk about it at the beginning, to be fair. Yeah.

No, no, I mean, really talk about it. Okay, let's talk about it. Well, I mean, now that I'm saying that, what am I going to say about it? It was a real, it's an album of joy. And it was cathartic. It was fun to make. It was, I think, really, really musically successful. And it showed what great, a great partnership, Dave and I have,

what a really good partnership can be. Yeah. I was struck, listening to it yesterday, I was struck by how joyous it is full of life. I particularly like, I'm 58 years old, and you're just a little bit older than me. And so I found inspiring because, like, you have not given up the ghost, you know. No, I'm hanging out with the ghosts.

You know, America's a little slow compared to the European version of letting people like us age gracefully and still make music. It's an unusual thing. I mean, you get bogged down by your own baggage, I think, in a lot of cases. You get to be my age and my, you know, my experience. And I think when you, it's like find a new love or something, you know. it's like it's never too late. And you can be inspired by all kinds of things. Last thing, because I've heard some stuff behind the scenes,

and there was some talk with Paul McCartney, with how they always were like Lenin and McCartney. And at one point even, I think I heard where Paul wanted to switch, you know, his songs would say McCartney-Bennon. Is it important for you for people to understand what your contribution was, are you okay if they want to think whatever they want to think? Well, they can think what they want to think. Because again, like I said, as a fan of yours for, gosh, almost 40 years, right?

You know, the pleasure of doing an interview like this with you, it's like I'm put in a position where I have to sort of make decisions, right? And sort of check my fan version of reality. And going back to the first time I heard Sarah smile on a little record player. And I think what's interesting is that, you know, you've made this incredibly well-received music and certainly benefited from it in terms of public interest. But, you know, like I said when I was talking about John, you know, there's been very few moments where you've had that breakout moment where it's really been about you. And I think there's something unfair about that.

And so I appreciate you being so open to talk about these things. I think that's part of, it's not a restoration problem. project, you know, you don't deserve restoration. You are, you, you, you've already done it, my point is. But for someone like me as a fan, it does help to know that there's a sort of a truer story to the thing, at least from your perspective, because it makes me appreciate you even more what you, what you contributed to my life as a, as a musician. Well, I think that, you know, my answer to that would be that I became really me when I started doing the series, the Life of Daryl's Health series. That's what I broke out and became,

me yeah well here we are god bless you thank you yeah bro