The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - David Draiman | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Billy Corgan sits down with Disturbed frontman David Draiman for an unfiltered conversation about music, identity, and what happens when an artist steps into the political firestorm. What starts as a reflection on a surreal Black Sabbath/Ozzy tribute quickly turns into something deeper. Draiman shares how the October 7 attacks reshaped his worldview, why he felt compelled to go public, and the personal toll it’s taken, from media narratives to fractured relationships. Corgan pushes on the bigger questions: Where’s the line between free speech and responsibility? Should artists use their platform for politics or stay out of it? This is a tense but thoughtful exchange about conviction, consequence, and the role of artists in a divided world.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Remove the hatred, remove all of the narratives, remove the division for just a little while. When you really stepped out in these last couple years, were you prepared for what was coming? I lost my illusion and fantasy of potentially being an every man a long time ago. Passions run hot for just about everybody these days. Knowing the man that you are and knowing that you're willing to talk openly about these things, this is the perfect way to do that. To be honest, I don't recognize the world anymore, Billy. I genuinely don't.

Your message is resonating in a way that really surprised me. I love being able to free people from their burden. That's my drug of drugs. David Drayman, thank you very much for being on my show. Thank you for having me, brother. Fellow Chicagoan, much respect to you. I want to start off with a little side note. Normally on my show, we mostly talk about music and art,

but in the last couple years, you've waded very deeply into the political sphere. And so it's not to say it's going to be about politics or it's going to be about music. It's about, let's call it, the intercession of both and the responsibility of an artist to stand behind what they believe in that type of thing. So a quick discursive on your musical accomplishment, because for those who don't know you, maybe are just here to watch what you have to say about your political or social belief maybe is not the right way to put it.

But, you know, it's worth pointing out that you've been in one of the most successful metal bands of all time. Thank you. First album, Sickness in 2000. The next four albums debuted at number one, which is, I didn't know. And that's very impressive to me personally. Thank you. Singles on all eight albums that the band's put out your band Disturbed have been in the top ten, which is unbelievable.

So, because you know how these things work, because I get into them myself occasionally, the first thing people go at is, well, you don't have a right to say those things, right? I'm not talking about your religion. I'm talking about, well, you're not this guy, you're this guy, so you don't, you know what I'm saying. So for people who don't understand that you're a,

you have been for many years a dominant musical personality and very respected. So if anybody wants to go at that angle, let's just say that for my own personal opinion, that there's nowhere to go with that. I appreciate that. And part of that, I think, is we were both part of the Back to the Beginning show, which was the final Ozzy Black Sabbath show.

So let's start there, because you've had a relationship with the Osborne family going back, and I know you have a good relationship with Sharon. So let's just start with like the easy part, which is both of us being there. I don't think we've ever talked about our reflections, but I certainly watched you play, and we got to talk during that event.

So watch you two. Thank you. So you can talk a little bit about your experience at the back to the beginning show? Probably the most surreal day of my life. I don't know about you. I have never seen that much talent congregated in one room in one venue at one point in time.

And getting along. And getting along splendidly. Yeah. Like it was like one big family reunion. And it was warm and wonderful, and it was a celebration of everything that, you know, Ozzy was and everybody who loved him so much and how many people he has influenced, Sabbath has influenced, probably the most seminal band of all time, maybe. You could make the argument, for sure. I was blown away, you know, I'm genuinely like fanboying myself every five minutes. Yeah.

It was very, very surreal. And it was incredible to see everybody paying tribute in the way that they could. It was incredible to see so many different spheres of talent coming together and just executing flawlessly and beautifully and powerfully. And it was, yeah, and then culminating with finally seeing Ozzy take the stage for the last time and having an entire stadium just ball like babies. together. I mean, it was, I'll never forget it. Yeah, yeah. Crazy, crazy night. Yeah. So the reason I wanted to start here, because it's both a happy memory for each of us, but also because I was on the side of the stage watching you play, and I thought it was great,

and I don't remember anything being out of the ordinary. And then about a day or two later, these articles start appearing about how you were booed. And I thought, that's not my memory. It wasn't most people's memory. It wasn't the memory of anyone that was watching the live stream. It wasn't my memory. I thought everything went great. You know, everybody was patting me on the back and high-fiving me when I came backstage. I didn't hear any of what they were talking about.

I heard a little rabble-rousing like over stage-right audience. But even that's where I was. So I would have heard it. So if there was, it was pretty minor because I didn't hear it. Well, the sad truth about the way that social media works these days, particularly for causes and politically driven things, is that, you know, the lie travels around the world at the speed of light. Yeah. And before you can catch up to it, the damage is already done. And it doesn't matter. Propaganda has served its purpose. Yeah, that was my first reaction was I thought, well, I don't remember this. I was there. And as you said, if you heard anything, I was right where it would have been. And I didn't hear that. But secondarily, my first reaction, because if you're in the media, like both of us have been for much of our adult life, you kind of go, oh, there's a reason that he's being singled out and somebody's leaning into this. Was that your reaction when you saw that? Oh, no doubt. I mean, look, I was expecting something at some point. You know, this basically started.

started quite a ways back before the actual show. First of all, it started first and foremost with the atrocities that occurred on October 7th when Hamas invaded Israel and many other Ghazans invaded Israel and slaughtered and raped and kidnapped and just did the most atrocious things imaginable to innocent people who, many of which were involved in building bridges of peace.

Many of them were involved in outreach to the Palestinian people and helping the people of Gaza and all of those, Kibbutzim, all of those, you know, those little farming settlements, those communes that are on the border, they were all about dialogue. They were all about peace. They were all about coexistence. And what happened that day,

broke me. Let me start you there for a second. Do you think that's at the root, that event, an atrocity, yes. That atrocity, it shifted something in you. It intensified things. Because you've always been very proud of who you are and you're certainly not shy in your opinions.

And I say that as a fellow troublemaker. So, but I'm saying, is there something about that event that maybe made you feel that you had to come forward more? Yes. I think it galvanized most of world jury. It made every Jew that much more, you know, insistent on being publicly Jewish, on making sure that people understood that we weren't. buckled by it, that we weren't intimidated by it, that we were going to continue to persevere. The outpouring of anti-Semitism that followed that was, for all intents and purposes, premeditated, was planned. There were organizations that are supposed to be about human rights that were

celebrating the slaughter of Jews the day it happened. And the day after it happened. And then to see so many of my colleagues, you know, fall prey to the narratives that are being spun. And it's disheartening, to say the least. There were two incidents in particular leading into the back to the beginning show that got quite a bit of FaceTime online, let's put it that way. I objected very, very powerfully and very strongly to the use of the use of the, the live platform of the stage that we all share to spread hatred. You know, you have bands like the Irish band, Kneecap, who have been known to praise Hezbollah,

who is their modern-day Nazis' proxies of the Iranian regime. Jew hatred and bloodlust run through them. And it, it, it, It's just shocking to see how normalized this sort of hatred has become. Can I stop you one second? Do you, because I think these are important distinctions, and this is why I wanted to talk to you, because, you know, to me, what I find interesting is everybody's got an opinion. Some people say them and some people don't, but everybody's got an opinion.

So let's start there. But where it gets interesting to me is this fine line between artistry, independent thought, making a statement of things that you believe in, and then whether or not there should be, let's call it, de-platforming or some sort of thing. So, for example, in the case of, I think the thing with kneecap that got your ire was they were on stage at Coachella, right? And on the screens came up, and again, tell me if I'm wrong, came up Israel, Free Palestine. Mm-hmm. And, okay, so freeze that moment in time if we can.

Do you have an issue, so do you have an issue with the band saying it? I have an issue with the ban being, using their platform to incite. So you see it as an incitement of it? I see it as an incitement when the bands that they, when the organizations that they are praising, part of their charter is literally to slaughter Jews. Hezbollah is a demonic terrorist organization. They don't deserve to be praised by anyone for any reason. Sure, but because I, this is, these are difficult discussion.

Sure. Excuse my sort of wandering around, but if they were saying it on their social media or they're saying it on a stage, Do you think it's a situation where they have every right to say it, but they shouldn't have allies in it, like it shouldn't be on a social media platform or it shouldn't be on a stage? Everyone has the right to say anything they want, on stage, off stage, on camera, off camera, online or off.

You don't have a problem with the free express. I am not in any way supportive of stifling free speech. I think that free speech and speech of that kind needs to be met with more speech, a speech that I tried to provide. So your reaction is one of, I think that's wrong that you're doing. Absolutely.

Okay, so it's more of a moral. Absolutely. I just want to be clear. No, no, I think everyone is the right to, look, everyone has a platform, everyone has a voice, and everyone's entitled to that voice. Choosing what you do with it is key,

and not expecting there to be backlash or repercussions after using, that voice, outside of the court of law, normal prosecution from the government, you're being naive. The court of public opinion is what it is. Sure. And it is powerful.

And even if you're, you can say something, to me, you'll never see me, for example, get on stage and preach division of any kind. I will never encourage that. Our performances is a band. I've always tried far in a way to keep completely free of any sort of polarizing entity of any kind,

no political leanings of any kind. I want everyone who comes to a disturbed concert to feel welcome, to feel safe, to feel empowered, to feel unified. That's what those moments are for. Sure. And it bothered me to see someone who, uh, is being given this gift, this opportunity to take a platform that few people in life or this world are blessed to take.

Yeah. And to abuse it in that way, I had to speak up. Now, that wasn't as much clear incitement as this Bob villain idiot who was... That was, it was they say Glastonbury? That was Glastonbury. And that was him getting on stage and saying, death, death to the IDF. Now that is straight up incitement. Every single citizen of the state of

Israel has mandatory service in the military, in the IDF, for two years. That's what they're required to do. We are surrounded by nations, entities, groups of people that want nothing more than to obliterate us from the... Are you talking to this instance of the Jewish state of Israel? You're talking about worldwide jewelry? Unfortunately, it's both these days. And to demonize and incite against every single Israeli existence, essentially is what this man was doing and this band was doing, there's nothing more irresponsible than that. That is direct incitement to violence. So let's break that down a little bit too, because I think this is at the heart of the conversation.

Do you think the promoters have a responsibility because on some level they're putting, these artists on the stage. And before anybody thinks I'm going in some other direction. I'm big on, I'm a free speech person. As am I? Okay. So your argument is not against the promoter. Don't. Okay. No, no, no. I might. So strictly like, I recognize your right to stand on that stage and I recognize your right. And I'm going to call you out. But I'm going to call you out if I think you're going over a while. Okay. So that's because I think that's very important for you as an artist to distinguish if people don't understand your position. people have a right, you know, people have the right to say whatever they want.

And people have the same right to counter said speech with more speech. Okay. And to try and influence the rational people of the world. So in the wake of the horrible atrocities in Israel, you, at least from my position, because, you know, I'm not sitting on your social media everywhere, but it seems like you've kind of come forward and put yourself into the fray of this greater argument.

I have. I have it. Can you walk me through, at least from a personal point of view, do you wake up one day and think, I got to do something? Do you turn to your partner and say, I got to do it? You know, it's like, walk me through that process. No, because you're, sorry, we know each other a little bit personally. Yes.

You're very smart man. Thank you, brother. You as well. God bless you. So, point is, you know, we all understand that there's a ramification, and I've certainly taken hits for saying certain things and doing certain things. So we're fully aware that there's going to be a manager or a bandmate or a friend that's going to go, what are you doing here?

Because you're hurting blank. Yeah. Well, my soul is worth more than any amount of money to me. Is it from the Bible where it says what profiteth the man if he gain the whole world but loses his soul? Exactly. And my integrity and my honor and my people. I come from a family of Holocaust survivors. 90% of my mother's side of the family was wiped out by the Nazis.

My grandfather was in Dachau. My grandmother was in Auschwitz. My grandmother and my grandfather on my father's side have been living in the land of Israel since before it was established as a state since the early 1900s we've had family there. My grandmother is Yemenite. Her family immigrated from them. My grandfather's Polish, she came in from Poland with the rest of his family.

family, everyone was escaping violence. Everyone was escaping the destruction and the horrors of the Holocaust. So to people who are, they don't agree with you, to people who are confused by these issues, to people who are stuck in like, let's call it the lanes of propaganda, what do you, as a human being, not as a musical artist, what do you want people to understand about why you feel the need to say these things? Because I think maybe the word that comes to mind is tribalism. I think sometimes people get lost in their tribe, and I'm not talking about the tribe of the Jews. I'm just talking about, these are my people, this is my crew, and I got to stand up from a crew, and then somebody says, well, this is my crew. I'm not trying to be a tribalist,

to be honest. I'm trying to be a humanist. Okay. I truly do have compassion for the Palestinian people, truly, truly do. A lot of what everyone, for the past couple years since I visited, Israel after October 7th to pay my respects and support however I could and just meet with families of the hostages. And I've been blessed to actually befriend some of the former hostages over the course of the past couple of years. It's been a very surreal experience. But what everybody loves to pick on is there's this one wonderful picture of me signing an artillery shell at a, by an artillery unit that was on the Gaza border that I went to visit during that stay.

And they're like, oh, you signed a bomb. The bomb absolutely definitely killed children or whatever else. Well, that's where kneecap the band. That's where they went right out at you about. Of course, of course. And that's what everybody will go after me about. But, you know, here's a thing. Believe it or not, contrary to public opinion,

Jews are allowed to fight back. And if there is a genocidal organization on your border, who is constantly launching rockets day after day, who's committing the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, I have calls from my mother crying to me in her safe room, in her bomb shelter as rockets are coming down. I have friends of mine who barely survived the Nova Music Festival massacre, because they decided to hide in a pile of garbage

while friends of theirs were being raped around them and mutilated, who barely escaped with their lives, who were shot in the process of escape. You know, people don't understand they're human beings behind all of this destruction. They're lives. There's real consequences. This isn't some movie.

This isn't some storyline. But I think you know, because you live in it, in your musical life, it's a world of narrative. Yes. It's, you know, in the case of this, this longstanding conflict, because I've heard about it my whole life, of course. It's as much of a narrative war as it as a literal war. It is. And unfortunately, so by entering the narrative war, you put yourself in this, in this fray. Yeah, and that's okay. I'm at peace with that. So looking back on the signing of the shell and, of course, you know, public condonation of that. Are you in the brain space of, I do it again, or probably not the best move,

but I still understand why I did. I'm giving you your, Billy, I would sign every single piece of military equipment in existence, okay, if it meant that Hamas was finally eradicated, and that the Palestinian people had a real chance at a real future. You know, extremism is a cancer for anyone, for any part of society or civilization. And they have been raised to hate and slaughter and lust over the murder of Jews since the day they're born. That's unfortunate.

There are UN organizations like UNRWA who facilitate this hatred, whose schools have teaching material that is pure incitement, that have cartoon characters, that glorify the murder of Jews. That whole aspect of society needs to be deradicalized. It's comparable to what needed to happen to Nazi Germany after World War II.

You have an entire group of people who live, breathe, and die for one thing, and that is to slaughter Jews. and for anyone to have an issue, they always have an issue when you fight back. It's never, everyone loves dead Jews, everyone loves persecuted Jews, everyone loves to feel bad, but God forbid we actually raise our fist to defend ourselves,

then we're the bad guy. The insinuation that every single piece of military equipment that was used in that conflict killed innocence is absolutely preposterous. You're talking about, even if you take Hamas's health ministries, numbers at face value, you're talking about the lowest civilian to combatant ratio in modern warfare history. You're talking about a war that needed to be waged in an urban environment. In an urban environment where not only is martyrdom glorified,

but it's encouraged and it's part of the culture. You have Palestinian mothers that dream, of their sons one day becoming shahids becoming martyrs and it's it's a disgusting way to live life i i wish better for them what's your response uh you know because you know we see these numbers from gaza and and you know again there's a reality and it's hard for any of us to discern the reality there's the propaganda aspects from both sides that It's obvious. So what's your response to people who just say, I don't know how you're supporting? I hear what you're saying. I hear the empathy in your voice, but how can you support the killing of innocence or, you know, you... I don't support the killing of any sense. I'm not saying that. I want to be clear. I'm not saying you support that. I'm saying is, do you have an argument of refutation to that argument? Or do you have a... Absolutely. Okay. Conflict, hatred, war.

is a choice. It's a choice. I think that both, you know, that we all need to choose differently. But if you're forced and you are, and you have no choice, what are you supposed to do? If Hamas laid down their arms as they were supposed to do according to the ceasefire agreement that's currently in place, which they haven't been adhering to. They haven't laid down their arms. They refused to disarm. They refuse to relinquish power. They continue to terrorize the Palestinian population.

They continue to do, you know, targeted killings of people who have opposed them. They continue to abuse their position by hijacking supplies, selling them at higher prices, completely taking advantage of the population they're supposed to be protecting. They didn't spend any of their resources on. infrastructure. They didn't spend any of their resources on taking care of the people of Palestine. They spent it on digging tunnels. They spent it on taking water pipes and turning them into rockets. They spent it on every aspect of their waking, living, breathing moments in life, focusing on intensifying hatred. And it's a waste. I would love for

this whole new idea of a new Gaza to be something that comes to fruition. I think that economic prosperity can dissuade extremism. I think that it can make people think that, you know what, there are better things to focus on. I have the chance at a better life here. I have a chance at moving away from this hopelessness, from this endless cycle of violence. You know, both sides, the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians, whether they're in Gaza or the West Bank or anywhere everybody needs to understand that nobody's going anywhere. Okay. So you accept that as a sort of you have to. You have to. You must accept it. So is, is, are you of the position that this claim of a resistance is fraudulent or not based in reality? Like, do you understand?

Both, I would say it's both fraudulent and certainly not based in reality. Because that seems to be to me the most compelling case, and I'm not taking sides, but that seems to me the most compelling case. We are, we, I'm putting myself in the position of the resistance side. We are, we are making the case that we need to do these extreme things to get your attention or get to do these extreme things to get the, the, the, the balance of power here to change. Unfortunately, they're right. They're doing things. And the things that they're doing is that they're sacrificing their own people. on the world stage for everyone to see and to gain additional sympathy

and to go ahead and sacrifice their children, their loved ones. But you think it's born of a, if you think of it's born of a classic, you know, people in power want to stay in power so this is the lane that they've chosen. And so you're saying, Oh, it's more insidious than that. Okay, please.

It is not just a matter of them wanting to stay in power. It's a matter of them genuinely believing their Nazi-like bloodlust. It's ingrained in the cult. culture. And where does this come from if you don't believe, because obviously the argument against the Jews in Nazi Germany was it was a genetic issue. Or, or, or, well, that was, that's the Aryan argument, right? Sure, but I'm saying I know you certainly don't believe that about.

No. Okay, so what is the, I mean, I don't know, because it's a complex issue for me, obviously. But what do you, where do you think this comes from? That's, if, that's, that's, that's the. you know, the priceless question is sure because because irregardless of the politics or the or what's going to come of this eternal struggle here. It seems obvious that there's a motivation and it seems to be directed in one particular direction. Now that may not be true and I may not be sophisticated enough to understand the counter argument that someone would make because I have friends in that part of the world and they'll try to say that no, no, you don't understand. The Israelis are the aggressors. Israelis are the aggressors.

No, no, but I'm... Well, I think... Let's let's... Sure. Let's go down history lane here. Well, let me... I don't want to stop you, but let me ask you one thing. Go ahead.

My real purpose of talking about these things is not to... is not to lay out the eternal argument because I don't have enough sophistication to even understand half of what you're saying not because I think it's true or not true. I just don't know the nuance. Understood. So I feel, you know, inadequate in being able to sort of play journalist because I'm not a journalist. My fascination, at least to talk to you today, is to try to find the balance between

a man who feels very passionate about his calling, if that's a fair word to use in this, because, again, I know you a little bit. So to see you personally step forward, you know. what you're doing by putting yourself forward. I do. You're not, you're not, oh, gee, I'm surprised that people have a problem with what I'm... No, no, listen, I lost my illusion and fantasy of potentially being an every man a long time ago. I think that I haven't been in every man even prior to any of this coming into existence.

I think that one of the things about myself and disturbed is people feel passionately about us one way or the other. they hate. There's no lukewarm feelings about us. And that's okay. I think I kind of prefer it that way. So I'm used to that. I wasn't used to everything else that came along with this. I don't think any Jew on the planet has been used

to it. There's no one who wishes for a true, real coexistence more than me. You know, my family and my people are tired of war. We've suffered through it, endless ones. And there have been

numerous peace opportunities for the Palestinians to accept. You know, Bill Clinton, you know, nearly killed himself trying to make a stint happen for the Palestinian people. Every single offer that's been made over the course of time has been rejected because they don't want two states. They don't want coexistence. They want their land back after what they call the Nakba. In 1948, seven Arab countries, once the Jewish state was ratified by the United Nations, once it came into existence, they simultaneously attacked Israel. It's been since How dare the Jews go ahead and take this piece of land? Any piece.

It's not, it doesn't matter. It's not about size. It's not about a mount. It's about a desecration of this idea that they had in their heads, heads of this superiority in the region and this purity, very Nazi-like. You know, the grand mufti of the Palestinian people, way back before there was ever a state of Israel, sat down with Hitler, you know, was part of negotiations for the final solution, was part of

talks. It was going to extend to the Middle East. Thank God it didn't end up going that far. We had to deal with other pogroms and other horrible slaughters on behalf of the respective cultures in the region and every region that the Jews dwelt and lived in, whether it was Iran in Persia, with the Farhood, or any other number, or whether what happened? and the Hebron massacre in Israel, there's been numerous instances of violence and hatred and making the notion very, very clear that, for the most part, for a very, very long time,

Arabs felt that Jews had no place there. The tragic part of that, the most tragic part of that, is that there are no two peoples on the face of planet Earth that are more closely blood related than the Arabs and the Jews. Both are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Those are the two sons

that went and became two separate, complete nations. We are brothers, family. There's no reason we should be slaughtering each other. So why do you think then that the feeling isn't mutual? I, you know, why has the Jew been attacked throughout history? Why did the Crusades happen? Why did the Inquisition happen?

Why did, you know... As I say, this is all above my paper. Yeah, but look, this is, unfortunately, Billy, this is something that has existed and transcends the past two years we're talking about. It precedes it. It is the oldest hatred in history.

So to pull the lens out a bit because, you know, as you know, this gets blurry down here. Do you want people to understand that from your perspective, and again, I'm trying to more pull it to the balance between your musical life and your political activism, if that's a fair way to put it, is your argument that you, you're saying, look, there's an existential thing here that needs to be dealt with, and how can I stand by and not do something about that? I can't.

My conscience just simply won't allow it. Do you recognize that that's similar messaging from the other side that they're saying the same thing? They are saying something with the same level of passion, absolutely, and that they believe it with the full heart based on their respective backgrounds and ethnicities and what they've been taught and how they've been raised? I have no doubt. I have no question. I think it's time to start questioning the narratives. I think it's time to start questioning. What would you, if somebody kind of does what a lot of people do,

they kind of go, this is way too complicated, right? Because even when you're talking, I'm like, I know what you're saying, but it's still very complicated if you're not like in the day-to-day of it all. What's the one thing you would want somebody to understand? What would you want to say, like, look, like, this is what I'm after and this is why I'm out here speaking. Well, the most important thing that people need to realize is that there's so much demonization that goes on of Jews, of Israelis.

And people need to understand that whether it's me or anyone else, that we're human beings, that we have loved ones that we're trying to protect and look after, that we've dealt with a lifetime of persecution. You know, Billy, I've got a whole bunch of broken bones all over my body. body, okay, that have healed over the course of time. My nose have been broken three times. This thumb, this ankle, this wrist, three ribs on this side, two ribs on this side, every single one from altercations with anti-semites, every single one,

every one. I didn't know that now. It's the truth. Now, I didn't always come out on top, as evidenced by the breakage, but I never stopped fighting, and I never will. This is, something that's existed and has been a part of my life, unfortunately, all of my life. What happened over the course of the past two years simply intensified it. Because in an effort to try and make everybody distance themselves from their Judaism or be afraid of it or be intimidated by those who seek to persecute us and seek to increase hatred, we've only become more proud.

We've only become more, if there's a way to say it, you know, intensely Jewish. And I think that that has been a, it's been a galvanizing aspect for the diaspora and for the entire community. This is a slightly divergent point, but I think it connects to one thing that you're saying that means something to me.

You recently did a post, we're taping this just in the aftermath of the Grammys here. Well, less. Less. But I want to sort of say kind of what you said in paraphrase and then you take it where you want to take it. Because I think this is worth pointing out that at least in this particular instance from what I've seen, that your message is resonating in a way that really surprised me. And I'm paraphrasing, so please correct me if you think the paraphrase is wrong. You basically called out the artist that were making political statements during the Grammys,

not for what they were saying. In fact, you said, I'm not even having a quibble with what you said. No. I just think your silence on what's happening in Iran is deafening. Absolutely. You didn't quite use the word hypocrite, but I thought, well, that's a good point because, you know, where is this care for this? Well, if you're really about human rights, where do you draw the line? Okay, great.

So, so, so, because I was curious to know, we were going to talk, because again, all these things are being played out in the private world, but also the public world. And once you declare yourself as part of this existential argument that's going on, well, you're part of the discourse and there's articles and headlines and all that type of stuff. And I was very surprised once you said that. I read the comments, and it was 97% positive and almost all the comments from people in Iran or Persians around the world. They need our voices. They don't have enough of them.

You know, the Persian and Jewish people have been allies for centuries since the days of Cyrus the Great. You know, Persian society and Persian culture are beautiful and expressive, and they were conquered in 79 during the Islamic Revolution. and they were subjugated. You know, all these wannabe freedom fighters that are so desperately clinging to their frail narratives that supposedly keep them safe and keep them in community and keep them in the right sights with everyone they're supposed to be notching points with.

Why hasn't the greatest slaughter of civilians by their own government in modern history been acknowledged. Everyone had no issue with taking up the Palestinian struggle in previous awards shows with wearing the bloody red handpin, which these morons don't even realize what it stands for.

And that in and of itself is in... I can't even begin to explain to you the level of anger it generates. The bloody red handpin is not, you have blood, on your hands. There was a massacre that happened, okay, in Ramallah, okay, that two off-duty Israeli soldiers went, not in their fatigues, not in their military get-up, they made a wrong turn, they went into Ramallah, they were pulled apart in pieces. The gentleman who was only

too proud to show the blood on his hands from the murder of these poor two innocent people held them up to the window so that he could show everybody outside what he had just done. Those red handprints date back to the Farhood, that pogrom that I spoke about that happened in Persia, in Iran, ironically. Red handprints were placed on the houses of the Jews that were meant to be attacked, that were meant to be slaughtered. This red handprint is the most insensitive, inappropriate and inflammatory symbol they could possibly wear, and it stands completely diametrically opposite to anything they're trying to actually...

But you know how this sound works. Half the people doing that stuff don't even know... But they should, and I'm here to tell them. Okay, so let's talk about them. And I'm here to tell them, because it's absolutely wrong. So let's talk about it from a slightly different lens. Do you believe musicians or music artists should be political? I think musicians should speak to their hearts no matter what it may be.

You know, the tradition of protest music has been a long one. There's no reason why art can't be fused or shouldn't be fused. In fact, it absolutely positively should be fused with intensely powerful messaging. If you compare these times to, let's say, the 1960s, there's a paucity of political and social cause music. Agreed. Which is interesting. Yeah. So does that tell you like it tells me that they're on one level performing to the cause of the day,

which is kind of what you were saying in your post about the Grammys? And at the same time, they're afraid to actually speak out and take any real position in their music because they don't want to pay the price. It's not courage. It's cowardice. You're just talking into an echo chamber. It's one big, gloriasic circle jerk. So, you know, what what purpose does it say? serve other than everybody patting themselves on the back. I, I, look, I won't even talk about the

ICE issue, okay? I'm sort of in the middle when it comes to that. I am fiercely supportive of our police department, of our, of our federal agencies. I also feel there should be a much faster and quicker means of achieving citizenship in this country. I think it shouldn't be as difficult. I think that people who have, it does seem weird that there isn't, isn't sort of more of a push to create some form of, you know, it's, how can I put it, that there should be pathways to citizenship that ameliorate the tension that's created by. Agreed. I wish that people were thinking more of that than trying to take every single issue that they can find and use it as some sort of partisan political tool to attack the other side.

And that's what I see happening on a regular basis. I think people, you know, so division because they profit from, and they continue to do so. They continue to empower themselves and enrich themselves. But to go back to the other subject for a minute, you know, they had no problem, an entire group of all those same people sporting that red hand pin. Okay. There's no pins for Iran. These people are being...

You're talking about the Grammys now. Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand. I don't understand why this atrocity didn't qualify. if you truly are for human rights, then why didn't you speak out? It's happening now.

It's currently happening. It's ongoing. It's abhorrent on every level. How, if you truly are a human rights supporter, are you not speaking about this? Well, I'll tell you why. Because it goes contrary to the narratives that they've been fed.

Because they've been fed these anti-colonialist narratives that are infused with Marxist ideology, that have no place in the discussion whatsoever. There's been this strange, you know, mutant combination of these elements that don't go together. You have people who are supposedly pro-LGBQIA plus supportive of pro-choice and all the rights that liberals have come to adore and embrace. And I am one of those people who stands for those rights. One thousand percent. Do you think that any of the people that you are supporting support those rights? They don't. Not in the least. They view you as haram. You're forbidden. You know,

homosexuality is is forbidden. People are executed. People are hung. Women can't show their hair in Iran. You're claiming to be liberal-minded. You're claiming to be for rights. and you're not speaking about a country that is the most brutal theocratic dictatorship on planet Earth that has subjugated their citizens since 1979, that has tortured them, that has used its proxies to spread its cancer of hatred throughout the Middle East, that is a destabilizing entity. Okay.

But they've been taught that everyone that aligns with the other side of that, those are the good guys. That's what the narrative is. It's all bullshit. I see. It's all bullshit. It's absolute nonsense. And once you start picking away at it, it falls apart. This was the, the, the, what is happening in Iran right now is the single greatest mask off moment, perhaps in history of the human rights movement. The actual human rights organizations were so sluggish to condemn what was going on in Iran. The United Nations had Iran on their own,

goddamn human rights council just the week before all this stuff went down. They have been emboldening this regime, this terrifying regime, for decades. Right. And between them, the Qataris, infiltrating our universities, infiltrating our learning institutions, kindergartens, the amount of money that has been injected into our society that is fomenting hatred in our schools, that is creating a whole new generation of students that are being bred to and taught to hate. Are you on some level making the argument that it's not even at the end of the day really a religious conversation? It's more a conversation about power being exercised in plain sight and people ignoring it,

depending on who's... It's both. It's both because it's religiously driven. Is that ultimately an instrument of how people are wound up? Certainly. Look, passions run hot for just about everybody these days. That's the nature of the environment. Sure.

You know, it's what everybody feeds up. But the deeper discussion, because again, we're in the weeds, the deeper discussion is, you know, let's call it the lines here, about where artists are being put under an interesting set of stresses that are unique to the time because of social media. And because if you're talking to say, pick your random pop star who's got 300 million followers on Instagram, if you can bend them to your political narrative, even if it's just something like clean water, which we none of us really generally don't have a problem with, that's a pretty powerful ally that you have. Artists are being enlisted in this greater sort of thing.

So I think the sustaining thing that I think would make people want to watch our discussion, beyond picking sides or not, is where these laylines lie for artists going forward in the age of hyper propaganda, government censorship, and whether or not artists have a responsibility, you know, it seems to be you're saying if you feel compelled to, you should, and she'd be willing to take the whatever the not the backlash but the but the but the you have to be prepared for it for sure look were you were you prepared for when you really

stepped out in this last couple years were you prepared for what was coming to an extent yeah um i'll be honest with you what i wasn't prepared for was some of the friendships and relationships that have dissolved since. Without naming names, can you define, some of these, now somebody won't text you back? Yeah, yeah, you know, colleagues of mine that I wanted to, you know, collaborate with or, you know, invited to my wedding.

You know, that kind of hurt. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it's been a mask-off moment for the world, to be honest. I don't recognize the world anymore, Billy. I genuinely don't. I have to find my center when I look at my son. Okay.

And I have to look at him and I have to say to him to him and I have to make sure he understands one thing above all. Okay. That contrary to what has happened in prior generations, Contrary to the stereotype that exists, we are not Jews with trembling knees. We don't cower. We don't bow to bullies. I never want my son to think that that's what we do.

And he's watching, and I have to be the example that I must be for him. You know, it's a horrible quandary, it really is, you know, because there's so much potential for so much good in that region. And if only certain elements were removed, it could foster, it could flower, it could proliferate. And I truly wish that our world and our society gives it the chance to do that. I think that there's nothing more than, you know, that what most Israelis, and I think a growing, number of Arabs want coexistence in peace. We're tired of war. We're tired of fighting with each other. The Abraham Accords, say what you want about President Trump. I don't always agree with the

man. I don't always disagree with the man. But then again, I haven't always agreed or disagreed with any elected official that's taken office. And I've always made it my business to call out right and wrong and injustices or whatever when I see them. The Abraham Accords were amazing. having a country like the UAE come into the fold, having Bahrain come into the fold, all these things, they were amazing. And if we can build on that,

if we can build on understanding, if we can build on acceptance, if we can finally put down the tools of war so that we don't have to defend ourselves, nobody wants that more than we do. Nobody wants that more than yours truly. I'm tired of getting the terrifying... So you're thoroughly convinced that the...

It's hard because it gets bled. with the state of Israel because of the religious overlay. Yes. But is your, you have a deep, because you're obviously convicted, do you have a deep feeling that, in your estimation, your side is not the aggressor. No, no, never has been. Here's the very, the clearest differentiation.

If Hamas, Hezbollah, the Iranian regime, the Houthis, everybody involved. Okay. If they laid down their weapons and they committed to coexistence and dialogue, there would be peace in the Middle East. There's no question. We're not looking for more territory. We're not looking to conquer. We just want to live in peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there'd be another Holocaust. We would be annihilated. That's the difference. Yeah. And I, you know, so how can you be an aggressor when you keep on giving up more and more of the land that you were given? as your original doctrine stated. How can you be the aggressor when you keep on offering to sit at the table with people and try and make peace deals? Offer them concessions. Offer them things. So to you, because based on what I've seen in the last few years,

and whether it's campus protests or people being very open about what is obviously patently anti-Semitic languaging, I mean, I've grown up watching people say lots of things. But when you see an outward and obvious support of anti-Semitism, that makes me uncomfortable because hate in any form makes me uncomfortable. As it does to me as well. Sure. So without getting in the weeds, is there a through line for you? Or is it just, I'm in the existential fight here and I feel like I need to be part of this?

I didn't. Because what's interesting I think about you is, at least I can say sitting here with you, as much of as an advocate as you are, I don't feel like you're trying to convince me of anything. No. I think you're very pragmatic about it all. I think you see it clearly from your position. I don't agree with it all, but it's not, I don't, I'm not on the other side of the equation by any means. But it's trying to understand, like, is there a through line for you?

because sometimes when people get deeply into a struggle, I'm using that word widely, you know, it's hard to see sort of the bigger picture. And I was really, that's why I thought bringing up you talking about Iran was very interesting because I think you do have that sense of that there is a wider thing that's possible here. And the Iranian regime, and I have friends that I met that grew up in Persia when it was, you know, some of the best colleges. in the Middle East and nobody was wearing a headscarf and, you know, it looks like, you know, New York 77 and it's Tehran. Yeah. You see those pictures. You're like, okay, that was a hard shift to the right or the left, depending on how you want

to quantify. What I'm trying to say is I've met people and the fact that you care about the erading citizen shows that you're at least guided by some moral center here. It's not just them. I care about the Uyghurs who are imprisoned in Chinese concentration camps to this day. I care about what's happening to the Ukrainian people who are still besieged by, you know, Russian attacks every single week. I care about the Christians who are being slaughtered all across the African continent.

I care about the Palestinians. I care about the Kurds who are being slaughtered up in Syria. So what's the through line for you that you want people to understand? That be consistent. If you care about human rights, then care about human rights. How do you think then in this age of hyper propaganda that we achieve some agreement? You have to be able to engage in dialogue. You can't immediately shut people down.

You can't just stick to your team and reverberate in your echo chamber and hope to affect change or camaraderie. Or camaraderie. Yeah, and for anybody would have, you know, because invariably somebody's going to have a problem with me having you on, I would say this to you and to them. Knowing the man that you are and knowing that you're willing to talk openly about these things, this is the perfect way to do that, right? Absolutely. You know, let you say what you want to say. It's not a speech. It's a conversation and lay it out there.

For me, the stuff that affects me, and I am curious and personally, is the decision to cross a line that you know once you cross that line, there's no going back. Because 40 years from now, somebody's still going to be bringing up this or that. I think that the line, the line crept up on me. Does that make sense? It does. I felt like I didn't have a choice, Billy. I know that everybody does have one. but my conscience wouldn't allow any other.

Yeah, that idea. I, I, you know. Having been in certain similar situations in my life at different times, I know exactly what that feels like. It's sort of like, I can keep doing what I'm doing, but it's not true to who I am, and I'm willing to take the consequence of this decision, knowing full well that it may not work out

the way that everybody would like to keep it all kind of controlled. And I think we're in a very unique time. it's not to speak of you empathetically, it's mutual understanding, which is like we're in a very interesting time where artists are under a particular kind of stress, which is like, say something, but make sure it's the right thing.

And you see oftentimes in this country where people who are outward leftists and really down for every cause, and God bless them, because I grew up in Chicago, I mean, we are a lefty city, and you know that. And I live in Highland Park, Illinois, which is 85% Jewish.

You know what I mean? I'm married, to Jew, my children are Jewish. I mean, I live in a liberal world, and I grew up in a liberal world. But you'll see people on the left sometimes, they'll take a position, which is slightly deviates from whatever the mob is rolling, and they'll just get, they'll cast them out faster than they can say Santa Claus, you know? Yeah. So you see these orthodoxies being put into place, and then the pressure of social media being to bring to bear. Yeah. Let me tell you, the not, Nazis would have loved to have had social media at the time.

It's Goebbels' wet dream if he was still alive. Let me ask you this because I think because there's a lot of smoke around social media and certain words, certain phrases, certain things. What's your position on the position of social media, whether or not they should be combating disinformation, combating hate, you know, these are very loose terms, but the idea that social media and or governments by extension, so treat it as all one kind of thing, does there have to be some sort of curtailing or is, or is it best as an open society? No, free speech is absolute. Okay, good.

I'm with you on that. There are, I know there are those people who say there are no lines of any kind. I don't agree with that. I think that incitement to violence is online that shouldn't be crossed. Nobody should be reading death threats. No, no. I just don't know how that. No, I don't know how that became acceptable or condoned on any level.

You know, I think that once you stifle people's speech, it goes into other back channels, and it still reverberates, and it becomes more nefarious, and so you're not accomplishing anything. Everything's best out. I think everything's best out, but I think everything is best left to the court of public opinion. I think that you need more speech to counter said speech. So if a government, because obviously there are laws in place that I guess are defined as anti-Semitism, do you support the idea that there's special statuses for certain groups or you think it's still best left wide open? It depends on the group and it depends on the level of their persecution.

You know, some sects and races are overly persecuted, and they do deserve to have special protections. You know, the sad state of affairs for Jews in the world in this country and elsewhere is that we need armed guards at our synagogues just to attend them safely these days. We can't go to a community event without security details at this point. That's the reality of life for Jews. I had to spend more on my European tour in terms of security expenses than I ever have in my life. You know, and that's something I need to explain to my guys.

They need to be okay with. They need to be okay with taking that hit. I feel terrible at all of it. But I can't do anything else. I can't. I've given my life, my soul, my heart, and everything. to my band, to our, to my brothers, to, you know, and, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I would do it again, a hundredfold.

And I know that this has been difficult for them. I can't even imagine being in their shoes and watching what is happening. So what would you say to somebody who's listening to this who vehemently opposes everything you say and could present a, you know, let's call it their version of oppositional fact. Sure. Make a compelling argument otherwise and is just as convinced as you are. What do you say to them? Let's talk.

Okay. Let's talk. Because, see, here's the thing, Billy. Fact is fact. It's not disputable. I think we're in a post-truth age or post-factual age. But there is true. That's why narratives, that's why I think artists under a particular dress is because narratives

in many ways have supplanted fact. I don't disagree with that. And that's unfortunate. But fact is still fact. Facts don't care about the narrative. Facts don't care about feelings. Facts don't care about opinions. They're simply facts.

They're irrefutable. You can't argue about it. Listen, I'm a person who has had a factual life, right? and I constantly run into people who the facts mean absolutely nothing to them. But that doesn't take anything away from the fact. We'll have a quick laugh. As we sit here, as we sit here taping,

you know, the big news in the NFL is that Bill Belichick was not elected to the Hall of Fame as a first ballot. And of course, there's been a big hue and cry about it because how is this guy who won seven Super Bowls and eight as a coordinator? how is he not in the Hall of Fame? And then here comes, well, he did this or we don't like this. And so then you start getting into like, well, what qualifies somebody to be a Hall of Fame or is it?

Is it ethics or is it accomplishment? So that's what I'm saying is there's a perfect example of a man who's got every fact on his side. And yet he doesn't qualify for the most obvious place that a man of that accomplishment was entered into. And I'm not even a Bill Belichick fan. Well, let's go back to the beginning of the conversation. The incident back to the beginning. Yes. Right?

Facts didn't matter then either, did they? It's adding credence to your point. I will say, as someone who pays attention to the news, it did shock me personally that normally when something horrific happens, like in Highland Park, Illinois where I live, there was a mass shooting. I remember. and it's particularly of course they're all terrible so none is better or worse than the other they're all terrible but what was really interesting about this is this is a city that's a heavily

liberal city and gun control is something that they're really you know it's passionate about and here was an instance of a local kid getting up on a roof and firing i think 80 rounds into a crowd of 3,000 gathered for the 4th of July and under a minute and killing seven and paralyzing a young boy and just a totally awful circumstance. And I don't even know where I'm going all of this because I get so lost in...

But what I'm saying is I'm lost in the detail of it and I'm lost in the horror of it. And what am I really after here? Horror. Oh, here's what I'm trying to say. Sorry, here's what I'm trying to say. So I was in that community after this mass shooting.

My wife and I did a fundraiser and we even did a private event for the first responders who hadn't been out since the massacre. It was a very, very difficult set of circumstances because, like you were saying, you deal with the real face of tragedy. The guy working next door

at the bagel shop had been shot and watched his father be killed next to him because he got a shot in the head. You know, like when you see the real face of tragedy, It's not a game. It's not a narrative. It's a thing. There's a point here, I swear.

So having been through something like that, obviously the situation in Israel was a scale of unspeakable horror. But because it was a mass shooting type event, right, or a mass attack, there was that sort of, there was reflection, there were vigils, there were a people saying, how do we get here? And yet it seemed like after the incident on, is July, what was June, the, in Israel. It was October 7th. Thank you, October 7th. It seemed like within 24 hours, everybody blew past the, and it was like, it went right into, like, it was like a football game. And I was like, this is weird because where's the reflection, where's the how do we get?

get here, where's the condemnation of something that should never happen. Right. I don't care what you believe. If it had been Israel attacking Gaza in that way, same thing. I would feel the exact same way. So what do you, what's your position to people who, who see it as basically an equal sort of thing? Does it make sense why I say that? I know you don't feel that way, but what do you say?

I don't, but I still feel. Because when you say facts, right? Because I have a lot of friends on that political side of the equation who are constantly hitting me up with their version. Of course, obviously, is in complete opposition to yours. In fact, I even have one friend that lives in the camps. And is a Jew, which is interesting. So what do you say?

Because when you talk about fact, it's like, I know that from my own life that people don't live in a factual basis. And let's call it for whatever reason as a horrific, watershed moment, bloodshed moment, that there wasn't even the kind of the normal human response of let's figure out what just happened. It just immediately went into this other thing. And I've never seen that before. We didn't have that on 9-11. We don't normally have that in mass shootings other than maybe the gun lobby, or the anti-gun people. But it kind of makes sense. but this seemed to immediately fall into this other thing.

Because it was planned. It was premeditated. They were ready to go with the anti-Israel protests and the protest movement. The very day of the attack happened. It was geared up for it. They were preparing for it. This was part, it was the beginning of a global campaign, a global narrative. Would you say it's been a world?

effective. Oh, it's been devastatingly effective. We are horrible at PR. We are just abysmal at it. You know, we're horrible at getting our own truth out, our own humanity. Yeah. And we have to be better at it. And we have to be better at encouraging dialogue and encouraging hands reaching across. I think that everyone does. Do you know, I mean, he's known as a YouTuber, but he's on other, Tim Poole, also a fellow Chicago. And you know Tim Poole? I know of him. So Tim's a huge YouTuber and came out of the Occupy Wall Street movement and he ended up being, you know, kind of a, I guess a guy who hosts podcast and a lot of political talk.

And Tim, like, you know, a lot of Chicagoans grew up very liberal. I wouldn't even say he would maybe even politically identify himself on the right. But one argument he's made in the past year is he thinks that Israel is losing the propaganda war. He's not wrong. There's no wrong. Because of Gaza and because of whether you want to say it's whether you want to blame the Israeli government for what they've done, which obviously many people do. But also if you want to say, well, they've just been more effective at propaganda. Either way, it ends up to them.

It's not as simple as that. They have different tactics that are working extraordinarily well for them. When you're a society that is willing to sacrifice your own people, willing, willing to sacrifice your own people, martyrdom is glorified. It's a mother's greatest desire to see that her son becomes a martyr one day. They have no problem, you know, being human shields for the cause. That's the most critical difference that you can't get past, all right? One side knows that, and Hamas said this repeatedly, they are only too proud to say

how willing they are to have their population sacrificed, how willing they are. how willing they are to have people martyred, how they know that it continues with every death, with every more, with every ounce of destruction, it creates more sympathy, it creates more negative PR, it creates more opportunities for the narrative to continue to proliferate.

And it's tragic beyond, because these people deserve a better existence. They truly, truly do. And, you know, but from our position, you have an entity that is sworn to annihilate you, genocidal intentions, without a doubt, that is willing to martyr themselves in the process, that keeps on lobbying rockets at you, that keeps on having suicide bombings happen, that keeps on doing all the things that have been par for the course, And every time you defend yourself, you unfortunately end up having casualties as you defend yourself

because they embed themselves amongst the civilian population on purpose. They set up their equipment by schools, by hospitals, they take over hospitals, they dig tunnels in schools, store military equipment in there, hide their soldiers there. Everything is meant for maximum casualties, for maximum destruction, for maximum destruction, for maximum effect on the global stage. And there's always somebody there with a camera to go ahead and film it. And if it's not actually happening, then they make it up. So they've seen how much it's benefited the cause. We're in a no-win situation. We're in a catch-22. What the hell do we do? We just, you know what, just go ahead and continue to fire. We'll just sit there and take it.

What society, what nation on planet Earth would be okay with that? None. We're in this horrific situation where if we dare to defend ourselves, we're damned, and if we don't defend ourselves, we're damned. So what do you do? I go back to what Golda Mayer said way back in the day, one of the greatest prime ministers of Israel that ever lived. And it was like, you know what, peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate. us. The thing that we won't be able to forgive, we can forgive the Arabs, you know, killing our children as difficult as it is, as devastating as that is. But we can't forgive is I'm forcing us to kill theirs. I'll never forget the day after 10-7. I knew

exactly what was going to happen. I knew. I knew. If you look back, I posted a video right afterwards. I was devastated, not only because of what the slaughter that just occurred in Israel, not only because a music festival was attacked, and people coming for an escape and peace and unity and to enjoy the gift that music brings to everyone were mercilessly murdered, for no other reason than that they were Jews. And you wonder, what did these people do to deserve this thing

other than what has been taught in the society that attacked them? Nothing, nothing. So I said on camera, like, you forced us to do this. I know what's going to happen. You're going to force us to defend ourselves. There's going to be horrific casualties, and it's going to foster and help spread anti-Semitism on a global level. And it did.

And it is. And it still is. And it's a equation that Israelis and Jews haven't figured out a way. to combat because what do we do? We just allow ourselves to be annihilated. Do you, I'm trying to ask this the right way, do you think criticism of Israel's policies in Gaza is helpful or, because some people, as you know, and you might be one of them,

some people they can't hear any criticism because. I criticize the Israeli government all the time, all the time. I think that certain things are done out of ego, and out of and are brash and are not well fought through and you know uh there there we have our own political issues in israel to deal with the respective parties that that are just as partisan but you know gauze is the gauze is the touch point for a lot of the a lot of the energy particularly here in the west agreed and and your and your your public squabbles with whether it's the tomorello's of the world or kneecap or even roger waters

They're bait. My favorite. We'll talk about Roger in a second. So the reason I ask you is, is, I'm not trying to put you on the spot about Gaza. You can. That's part of why I'm here, Billy. Okay. So do you have any critique of Israel's, I don't even know what you call it, incursions into Gaza?

Do you have any critique of their response to October 7th? I have a critique that October 7th happened in the first place. It was one of the worst security failures in the country's history, and people aren't being held to account. It's like people seem to forget about that. You know, that's the biggest issue I have, that it was allowed to happen to begin with. Secondarily, when they went in, go in, going hard, finish and leave. you know, unfortunately, it dragged on and on and on, and I'm not a soldier and I haven't been there, and I can't begin to imagine what they're experiencing or what they're going through,

and I'm certainly not privy to the moves of the 3D chess games that happen all over the world, whether it's in Israel or anywhere else. But I know that either way, it was going to be a key. cluster. There was no way around that. There was going to be massive civilian casualties, because when you're trying to fight a genocidal terrorist entity that embeds themselves in an urban landscape and specifically hides behind their women's children and innocence, innocents are going to die when you're trying to actually eradicate them. This cycle of violence has gone on for too long. It's gone on for too long. In 2005, Israel withdrew everyone from God.

We had settlements in Gaza. We had greenhouses, plantations, beautiful growing facilities and farms. Out of spite, when we gave up the territory to say, okay, here you go. Here's Gaza. You guys govern yourselves. You can do what you want. They were destroyed. All that infrastructure, destroyed, just out of spite.

Then the Palestinian people elected, the Gazans elected, Hamas to rule over them, who has not only brutalized the Palestinian people themselves, but has used them as a tool for this cycle of violence over and over and over again. I want nothing more than for there to be modernization, for there to be community, for there to be dialogue, for there to be some sort of means of breaking through all this viciousness. So let's talk about Roger Waters for a second. You know, I've worked a little bit with Roger, so I know I'm a little bit personally. I'm sorry.

But I want to comment from a slightly different angle, because I'm curious if you have any reflection on my observation. So my observation is, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the defining moment in Roger's life is his father. is killed in World War II. It's in the wall. You know, he's made more than one record about it. And he might balk at the word trauma, but it seems like that would be very traumatic, you know, if it happened to anybody.

And, you know, a few years back, Roger was very critical of Radiohead for going to play a gig in Israel. And then since then, Rogers made some very strong statements against Israel, including to the point where he's now, I think, estranged from some of his, at least one of his bandmates because they don't agree with this position. But what I'm asking, I guess, is sort of a slightly different question and maybe a nicer way to end this,

which is, it's not a stretch for me to understand why someone who went through what Rogers been through, for him to look on and hoar at the Ghazan civilian population issues. and I've seen these crazy numbers and, you know, is there an officially recognized number by the state of Israel for? It's still, you know, it's still being discerned. But let's go ahead and play doubles advocate. Let's say the number is the 70,000 or the 75,000 that the Gaza Health Ministry claims. How many of those were combatants? How many of those died from, you know, rockets that were launched by Hamas that ended up hitting their own population?

I'm not assigning guilt. Let's just say one is too many. No doubt. It makes sense to me that a man who grew up in the shadow of World War II lost his daddy in a war has really suffered the consequence of the pain of losing someone. That he would be hypersensitive to a scenario like that? I agree. Well, then why isn't he hypersensitive to what's going on in Iran? Why did he defend the Iranian regime? Why did he go ahead and claim that, oh, you know. I was looking for you to have some mutual understanding with Iran.

You know, here's a thing, Billy, I grew up on Pink Floyd. I loved Pink Floyd. It was such a massive betrayal, not just to me, but Jews everywhere when he went in the direction that he did. And it wasn't just two years ago. He's been doing this for a long time. Roger has a pashant for dictators for the worst mother on planet Earth Roger just cozys right up to he has no problem whatsoever you know this whole

See my attempted peacemaking fail No not with that one dude He's just such a hypocrite He's a hypocrite He's not for human rights He's for this weird dictator-driven even socialist, you know, I don't even understand what he's trying to stand for.

Sure. But so, so my attempt failed. So let's let's say, let's try one other tact. So at least as you sit here today in 2026, you remain open to the idea that if someone can present you with a set of facts, you remain open that there's different perspectives to have. And you encourage that dialogue. You want that dialogue. Absolutely. You're not closed off. Never. You close off and that's the end of anything. So if Roger Waters called you tomorrow and said, let's sit down and talk, you talk to him. I'd have to punch him first. I thought you were a man of peace.

Until I get, you know, past a certain. I guess I'm not trying to call you out as much as say that, at least from my perspective, you know, the price of peace is very high, as you know. Listen, I'd be willing to sit down and have a conversation with just about anybody. except someone that can no longer be reached. And I'm very, very convinced that Roger Waters can no longer be reached. But to depersonalize it about Roger, then you could say that about a lot of people on the other side. I could.

I know people, and I'm sure you have people in your life, that it doesn't matter they're so convinced if your argument is here and their argument is here. And even that being said, Billy, I'd still be willing to sit down and talk with them. Okay, well, that's refreshing. Okay. No matter how passionate I may be about my position, I know that the only way that anything gets resolved is by dialogue. Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you because I think the minute we start sort of arbitrarily deciding who gets to talk, who gets to.

No. I think that's not our place. I think it's our. That's kind of my own self-serving thing for anybody who doesn't understand is that's why I want to talk to you. I appreciate. Because I want to understand, and I'm not afraid to ask the question and also understand there's another side and try to figure out my version from a place of innocence or naivete. But as an artist and as a fellow artist, I'm so glad to hear you say that you stand for that because that's at the heart of what we do. You have to. That's the only hope.

The minute that you close off, there's no solution for anything. So even to someone like Roger Waters, yes, I would be always. open to dialogue. I'm open to dialogue with anyone. So, so if, if, if there's a, and I'm sure there's at least one, if there's a fan who can no longer listen to disturb, probably the way you can no longer listen to Pink Floyd, you're cool with that if at the end of the day you're like, look, I believe in what I believe. I respect. You don't understand. What's your take on all that? People were already not listening to us for different reasons anyway. Well, God bless on that. Look, a long time ago, I accepted that not everyone's going to love us, that not everyone's going to love me.

And that's okay. I'm all right with that. I'm at peace with that. What I wouldn't be at peace with, what I wouldn't be able to go to sleep at night with, is knowing that I didn't speak to what's true to my heart, that I didn't stand up from my convictions, and that I didn't dishonor myself by not representing who I really. am. And I That's why I think a conversation

like this is valuable. To talk about the things, the specific facts and the positions and the things, that's something that's like I find myself inadequate at, but where I feel like we can have that conversation, at least you and I, is

what is the responsibility an artist? Do they have a responsibility? I think they do. And then, and then, And then in many ways, us being sort of drafted into these bigger things that are certainly above us. Now, in your case, you're a man of conviction, and you've aligned yourself with that. In my case, oftentimes, I'm like, I don't want to get into this because this is too stupid over here for me. And I'm sure you deal with a lot of that, too, where it's like, it's like if you're going to make an argument, at least make an intelligent one, and we can have an intelligent argument.

There's not a lot of that these days. No, but when it's devolved into, you know, good guy, bad guy, you know, it's wrestling, right? It's just, you know, that's really the end of the story. So that's why I brought up, Roger, was because I'm happy to have dialogue with anyone. You said you wanted a pun. I do want to. Maybe by the end of the dialogue we both won't want to. I don't know.

The only way to diffuse that feeling is by dialogue. Isn't it? I mean, you can't lie about how someone else, based on what they've said about you, your people, your heritage, your country, about what they make you feel. Somebody that's attacked like that, they're going to foster those kinds of feelings.

Yeah, I still have that feeling. It's funny, we were at the sunset marquee together like it was not too long ago. I was here for something. And Roger was there too. And I guess he got word that I was there as well. And all of a sudden, Roger, who was walking around all by himself that day, suddenly was surrounded by five or six really, really big security guards.

Well, I guess there goes the chance for dialogue right there. We're not going to talk to each other. So, look, you can't help but automatically feel defensive and combative when everything that you've grown up with and everything that you love and everyone that you've come to know and value is questioned. Well, what I'm struck by talking to you today, and we didn't talk before this conversation, is that you are open. And I think that's what I would ask people to do is to understand that you're willing to talk

about these things openly. That should be commended, even if you disagree. And then secondarily, that you remain open. And that's the key to me. You're not, you're not, I don't get the sense you're, you're convicted for sure, but you, I do feel like you, you will listen to the other side of the art. I'm convicted, but I'm also convicted to try and, you spoke about music. You spoke about what is our job, what's our mission, what are we supposed to do?

How do we wield it, this gift, this responsibility? That's what I think it is. If you're blessed with this, if you can enter into an arena full of people and make 20,000 people forget about the shit of the world for a little while, make them feel powerful, make them feel like they're a family, remove the hatred, remove all of the narratives, remove the division for just a little while. It's an amazing thing. music is the most cohesive uniting element in existence. Maybe this is a good place, Dan. Have you had those moments, and I've had them in the last few years where I look out, and, you know, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 people?

And I think how many people in this audience would I disagree with, or they would disagree with me if they really knew how I felt about any given thing? It could be anything. A pop star to the history of rock and roll, to politics. And yet, I look out and I see everybody happy and they're having a good time. And if we could bottle that. Amen, brother. That's, to be honest, that's the main reason why I still do what I do.

I love being able to free people from their burden. That's my drug of drugs. I love that. And that's, I guess, part of the reason why I get so passionate about who people who abuse this platform, you know, who use it to sow division, who use it to, you know, spread hate and instill fear, when it can be such a bonding, cohesive element, when it can be such a means of unity and empowerment, it just seems like such a waste to me. Can you envision a time where we will have peace in the Middle East? I do, and I can. And I think it starts with decapitating the head

of the snake. I think that the Iranian regime and their cohorts and the Katare's are certainly part of that. I would put Erdogan and the Turkish regime in the same categorization. And unfortunately, the Saudis are starting to creep that way too lately. I think that if the head of the snake is decapitated, then their proxies lose their funding. They lose their backing. And if the Persian people are allowed to rise again and truly be who they are meant to be, we will see a new era of peace in the Middle East. I think that the head of the snake being decapitated is the key to everything. And I think this is an incredibly important moment in history,

and I hope that our elected officials don't f*** it up because it's not going to come around. You said the many you expect elected officials to not. They probably will. Right. Great to see you. Appreciate you, Bill. Thanks for having me. Thank you.