The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Dean and Robert DeLeo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with Stone Temple Pilots’ Robert and Dean DeLeo for a frank, fast‑moving sweep across three decades of rock—scraping video budgets in the “last‑of‑the‑Mohicans” label era, MTV premieres, weathering addictions, lineup shocks, and even a near‑fatal on‑stage heart attack. Early rivalry dissolves into respect as Corgan applauds the brothers’ “guitar‑and‑bass telepathy,” the distinctly Americana road‑trip vibe woven through STP’s catalog, and Brendan O’Brien’s whirlwind sessions that bottled it all. Together they savor Scott Weiland’s genre‑hopping voice, honor Chester Bennington and Jeff Gutt, and admit that—older and battle‑scarred, their true fuel is the next left‑turn riff and the moment a crowd sings back every word.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm not interested in the dirt stuff. You know what I mean? It's like it's not that interesting. Give it to you, baby. There I am somewhere in Chicago. You guys come on. I watched that video. I think, what the fuck is this?

Right? God bless STP. But he dangled you over my head. Gosh, I'm sorry. Oh, no, no. Look, we're the last of the Mohicans. Record labels giving us some bread for a video. Yeah.

I loved every aspect of the creativity, you know? Yeah, at the time I kind of resented it, but now I realized it was actually a blessing. It's the last time there was any kind of order. Now no one in this business can tell you what success is. Welcome to DeLeo Brothers. Thank you. Thank you.

Can you believe it's been 30 years since we've been putting out some of this music? That is just a mind-blower. Because it just seems like yesterday that we were all on MTV and arousing about, pausing. Care-free. Care-free, you know, playing, you know, desuss chords. You still got the main. See, I don't...

He's got the good head of hair. Yeah. Yeah, it does seem like... It just wasn't too long ago. Gosh. Right? It was fun, man. Yeah. I mean, how did we go?

We'll get there, but I listened to a bunch of recent stuff. I've been listening to stuff as it comes out, but I went to kind of like sequentially, backwards. So your solo record, lessons learned, which I really, really enjoyed. You worked with a bunch of different singers. Yes. I didn't recognize any of the names of the singers. Do you just find people that you thought were right for the song?

Yes, friends. Okay. Friends that happen to be very talented. Yeah, lots of friends. I don't have any talented friends. I don't. I was like, how does he know all these people? Yeah, just finding the appropriate people for the...

Yeah, really nice. And then, if I'm saying this, Pridita? Perdita, yes. Not quite an acoustic record, but acoustic-ish. Yeah. What was the logic behind that? Like... Heartbreak.

Okay. Yeah, a lot of heartbreak. Was it sort of kind of a grieving? I think so. What do you think, Dean? Yeah. Yeah. That's been something we've been wanting to do for a long time.

Was it just a kind of a public kind of, let's just work through some of these things emotionally, musically? Yeah, I think, you know, we've always tried to incorporate, like you, try to incorporate, you know. Life's tragedies into my music. More gentle sides of our talents. Yeah. And I think it was time to just accumulate that altogether. Yeah, really beautiful. Thank you.

Of course, that's Jeff Gutt. Jeff Goot. Sorry, Goot. Goot. Goot. good he's not goot he's great he's good good he's great and then you guys somehow you don't name your albums anymore

I don't understand what this is about we ran out of names okay so STP at album in 2018 with Jeff first record with Jeff yeah and then I kind of went back through including the high-rise EP with Chester singing but I I saw something that I

and I've been listening to you guys since the very beginning but I heard something in these last few records that I go ah now I get it. If I just was thinking 90s forward in your in your music, I always think it's the way the guitar and bass interact, obviously has a lot to do with your relationship, I think. But that vibe is what I, when I think SPTP, I think when I think SPP, I think guitar's first, guitar base being guitar. I think that's always, like the guitar always sets the tone over in this little weird part of America, right? Here, we're over here, we're over here. But what I heard in these, uh,

your solo record, and what I heard in Perdita was like, there's a kind of a, I don't want to say it's the great American songbook. I'm not talking about like Bing Crosby Times, but there's a sort of Americana thing in your music that I never really picked up on before. Does that resonate the way I'm asking it? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's kind of transposed in a, in an R&B kind of Americana way. Okay. So kind of a mixture of maybe a, maybe a, I always think of, you know, Stacks comes to mind because it's kind of a... I literally just interviewed Sam Moore before you came here. Wow.

I mean, you want to talk about it? Sounds like he interviewed you. Well, yes. Somehow we end up talking about fake dicks, but we'll say that for another. You're not every day you get to talk to Sam Moore about fake things. That's a treat. But there's this kind of, and this is my description, so please, I want yours, mine's not important. But I get this like, it's like when you're driving on a road trip and you kind of come in an interesting part of America, you know, and they're not.

It's not all the same. You know, you see a town with a little bit of a faded main street, and then you go over here, and there's the dinosaur on the side of the road. And I think there's that quality in your music. This is very American quality. And I don't know, road trip is the way I would describe it. You always take me to, like, a different place, in the guitar tones.

You'd always play you just the same guitar sound like I do. Does it make sense? I get it. Yeah. So through these last couple year record and then the Perdita, I was like, oh, the melody kind of is this American kind of melody, somewhere in between the Eagles or, I don't know, bluegrass or something. And that gives the music a kind of a sinewy quality.

And what I would also tell people to do is, obviously, Scott has so much to do with the way people perceive STP. But you've had these other great, credible singers, Chester being one, Jeff Goot being another. yet somehow they all end up kind of bowing down into the STP aesthetic. So how does that work? Because I'm surprised, because if you just listen to an original song with Jeff singing, an original song with Chester singing, an original song with Scott singing, somehow it still sounds like STP. So what is that?

I think that's because Dean and I musically, when we come up with something, there's usually a melody that goes with it. So you force the singers. Well, there's been, I mean, Scott, Scott was great at melody. He was amazing at melody. But I think sometimes you can't help, but sing along with what you're writing. But I'm saying I was surprised by that because, again, I'm a fan going back forward, meaning early music forward. So I had my own kind of version of like how you guys did what you did. And you hear things from studio guys, oh, this is the way they work and stuff like this. I don't know what's true or not. But I'm saying is,

actually going backwards gave me insight into your music in a way that I'd never had it. And I've toured with you guys, listened to you guys play many times. I think it was we toured with you. You guys make it hard to follow a band. Oh, that was a great tour. It's like I'm sitting backstage warming up, you know, and it's like hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit. Yeah, but you got, you too. I appreciate that.

I mean, song after song. But you guys don't have that artistic problem that I have where you need to, for a foist on the audience, some sort of weird Bertolt Brecht drama play in the middle of the show, right? You guys are all about good time. Here's another good time. Here's a heart chain. Here's a heart chain. Here's another hit. My show always, Jimmy always, Jimmy Chamberlain, I always call it the art breakdown.

Yeah, yeah. He's like, why do we need to do the art breakdown? That's funny. That's funny. Real quick, because I, because I, I, so. And so have you here, and I've never asked you this question, is it true? Because I heard this back in the day that you used to record the tracks

and then, like Scott would sing on the tracks. Is that true? Yes. You didn't really work as a unit in making the music together, or is that one of those studio legends? We did. We did the music. Well, a lot of stuff was written on our own, too.

Yeah. We became very good at holding the phone between our legs and playing a phone into it, you know? And, yeah, there was a lot of songs where Robert would bring or I would bring in. Then there was a lot of songs where we'd be like, oh, I got a great part for that, man. Yeah, yeah.

You know, and then Scott would do his thing. Scott liked going in at about 9 o'clock at night when he was good and oiled up, and he would sing one or two songs. Yeah. Yeah. He just wanted to be alone with Brendan, usually. Okay.

Yeah. Did you see that as him needing his own version of it, or did he need to be away from you? I'm not saying it in a negative sense. I'm saying people work in different ways. How did you take it? I utterly respected it. He just wanted to do his thing.

The last thing they needed, both him and Brendan, is me chiming in. Should he do it like this? Yeah. Yeah, he certainly had a great intuitive sense of finding, like, interesting nooks and crannies in rhythms and melodies. That was one of the first things I noticed about him as a singer. Yeah. And he enjoyed country music, too.

I mean, he grew up with country music. He could actually sing some mean Hank Williams. He was great at. That's the thing about great vocalists is, and even I heard a track, I can't remember the name of it, you would know. It's like the third or fourth track on the EP with Chester,

where he sings, he doesn't sound like Lincoln Park Chester. He sings almost more like a choir boy. Yeah. I actually had a, I was like, is this really Chester singing? I'd never heard it before. What a voice. Well, I think when you, you know,

get introduced into something musically that's different from what you're used to, you're going to kind of like you said, adapt to that. But isn't it interesting when you take, take a great singer like Chester, Scott, and I'm sure you saw it with Scott where it's like, there's these other voices in the voice that you didn't know was there. Exactly. Yes.

You know, for me it was always like being a singer was like, I didn't want to be a singer. I got kind of forced into it because nobody would sing my songs. It worked pretty well for you. It's okay. It worked out. You know, we called my voice in The Wild Pony because we never know what's going to come out. But I didn't want to be a singer. And my own father was a really good singer, and he didn't like my voice.

So it was always this weird thing of, like, being put on the spot. Yeah, yeah. So what I'm saying is in admiration when I would look at a guy like Scott, I was like, oh my God, I wish I could do that. Yeah, but you do your thing. No, but that's the beauty of it. I had to learn to adapt to my circumstance, which is totally fine, and I don't bemoan it. But, I mean, look, I was just sitting here with Gene Simmons, you know,

talking about seeing Kiss reunite Tiger Stadium 96. And Allison Chains... We were supposed to be on that gig. He brought that up. He told that story. Did he really? Yeah, yeah, he told that story. But Allison Chains did end up opening.

And obviously, Elaine was going through his troubles. And, you know, he looked like this kind of crazy emaciated spider in like a black cat suit, right? Yeah. And, you know, the last time I'd seen Lane was backstage. at a chain show, such a beautiful man physically. You know, I mean, just like, almost like too beautiful to be good. And then that he'd open his mouth and then that voice would come up, right?

Anyway, so I remember, so I'm on the side of the stage watching Alice and Change do their set. And, man, when Lane would open his mouth, it was like, wow, that sound. And, you know, I'm getting chills just talking about him. Scott had that too. And your guy now, Jeff, Goot. I mean, he's got one of those voices, too. I mean, it's just like the power of the voice. It's like, I'm like, I don't know how you guys do it, man.

Especially the racket that we're making. It's the genetics. Oh, my gosh. I didn't know this because I've been doing my research here. Born in 61? Yes, sir. 66? Yes.

Well done. The baby over here. The baby. I don't, because I couldn't find any information. How did you get from New Jersey to San Diego? I actually wound up in San Diego. Yeah. Robert kind of stayed up here.

I wound up in hell. Is that New Jersey? No, I came out first. I came out by myself. What age, though? 18. Okay. Was this the, I'm coming to L.A. to live the dream?

No, it was more like I was kind of convincing my mom. It was the three of us living together. It was Dean and my mom and myself, and I was the first one out to California. Okay. And I was 18, and I came out with $1,200. And I... Was it a musical dream? No, it was just, we had a cover band, and we were playing the bar circuit in New Jersey,

and I just, I was at a dead end. My sister, our sister and brother-in-law were out in Orange County, and they said, hey, why don't you come out and live with us? So I took advantage of that, but, you know, I was kind of trying to fool everyone and trying to make everyone, you know, at that age you're trying to make everyone else happy. You don't really know how to make yourself happy at a 19. But you're trying to make every... Yeah, I'm going to go to art school and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. I couldn't hold the job. I got kicked

out of my sister's house. I was on the street. Why did you get kicked out? I got fired from a job and I had some girl that spent the night over at their house and they're like, you want to do that? Go to a fucking hotel. So, you know... I'm going to start a band. Yes. I'm going to start a band.

Whatever I want. I didn't know that happened. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what we're here to do. We're here to do. He didn't know. What was the name of the cover band? It was Tyrus. T-Y-R-S.

T-Y-R-U-S. See, I had National Wrestling Alliance, our champ last year was Tyrus. Tyrus. The 6-7 behemite. Yeah. Oof, man. 375 pounds of man.

Woo! My kind of man. My kind of man. No fake dicks there. No, sir. No, he's all man. I can attest to that. So you kind of get the family to come out here?

No, actually, I was out here and I bought a $650, 1976 Volkswegan Rabbit, and I bought a $250, 1978 Music Man Stingray bass. Yeah. And I kind of lived with, kind of did the couch tour. A year later. Did you date any women who took you in kind of as the... I did.

I did. I did that once. It was interesting. It's not fun. It's not fun. Because you feel like such a wheezy. Well, in my case, I'm still friends with a person, which is really nice. Somehow we've maintained a relationship. That's great. Honorable. It can happen in music. It's rare, but it can happen, yeah.

So then Dean and take it from there. Yeah. I guess it was about 1985. Yeah, my mom and I came out, and I wound up moving to San Diego not too long after. And that's kind of where we really started gigging. There was, made friends with some guys in bands down there. One of which, I'm going to shift gears here. Please. One of which, my dear friend Josh, who, he was in a pretty successful band down there.

They were an original band called Honeyglaze. And we did a lot of shows with them. And Josh and I did a lot of cool stuff. And Josh actually said, hey, man, you got to check out. out this CD. Was this Gish times? It was Gish. 91, yeah. Which was just, by the way, just turned 33, which there's another one, like, what happened? I'll tell you, man, I was so knocked back by that.

Yeah. Oh, thank you. That, that CD did not leave my thing for like a week. Yeah. I was really just so blown away. It had elements of Prague, like heavy. We were so crazy. Melancholic, you know, was just, yeah, that record, man, really, really knocked me back. So, you know, because we're on the same label, I'd met Courtney Love. Hey, I don't come to you with my problems, man. No, no, but I'm tying in your story is, so I knew Courtney, I think, right before Gish came out. And after Gish came out, Courtney called me and said, it's unfair. It's like a second album.

Oh, well said. That's pretty good. Well said. That's pretty good, man. That's well said, yeah. Yeah. That record's beautiful, man. Amazing.

The drum sound, that was the original Smart Studios. which they had put together totally haphazardly. One of those weird things were just, it was really loud in there. It sounded really beautiful. They eventually changed it and sort of destroyed what was haphazardly perfect about it.

It was so loud and there was almost impossible to record drums in there with Jimmy. Wow. And, yeah, I mean... Jimmy Chamberlain. Yeah, badass. Crazy.

Jimmy. So Siamese Dream was a second record, right? Yeah, we recorded that. Marriada, Georgia. I remember we were on the road and I don't know how we got a copy of it, but we put it on the bus. we were like, holy cow.

Yeah, we were going for it. Did Butch do that? Yeah, Bush did that. I drove Butch, Plum crazy. We're going to start interviewing you now. No, no, listen. We have an interesting co-joint history. We will get there.

Yeah, but I have to say, let me just say, you guys play heavy and that first record, Gish, it was the gentle moments that were like, yeah. They have, they have that. Well, you guys have that, too. But you come out from a different angle, But that's what I mean. This is, there's this, even your solo record has a lot of sort of gentle SoCal kind of thing.

But when I hear that amplified through your kinetic guitar playing, then I was like, oh, that's the revelation I had about your music. I'd never gotten that before. It was always sitting down with an acoustic and then taking that and turning it up to 10. You know what I mean? It was always a jazz. Because you're always so guitar forward, though. I just assumed it's like that's the way you worked.

But once I heard the other stuff, I was like, oh, there's the, there's the, There's the secret songs on STP. So you're down to San Diego. You know, we play down there, I think, Casbah, like... I was there. Yeah, 75 people. Okay, so I said... So I think the occupancy sign, I seem to remember this,

said maximum occupancy 91. Yeah. This is the old Casbah. Dude, all I heard was guitar and cymbals. We didn't give a... I was there, man. And we weren't worried about hearing the bass. Let's put it that way.

But we walked into that gig. We, true story, we had played Denver two nights before. So it's a four, it's a 24-hour drive. Yeah, big drive.

So we left Denver after a gig. Perry Farrell, Casey Nicoli, who was Perry's Paramore at the time that's on the cover of him, nothing shocking with him in the line. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Navarro showed up at our gig, in Denver. In Denver. Okay. So we meet them for the first time. Wow. We had played with them, but I'd met Dave, but I hadn't met Perry before. To meet them.

Now we got a 24-hour trip, and it's a snowstorm through the mountains. Oh, man. So Junior, as I like to refer to myself in the third person sometimes was like, I ain't driving. So I just took a bunch of mushrooms because I knew they wouldn't ask me to drive if I was high. So I'm tripping my brains out, going through the mountains. There's like elks, you know, it's like, and so we just, so we just. drove 24 hours straight to get to that gig. So by the time we got to where you were, we were dead be tired. And then you get in front of that gig. You were like, oh. And you go, you drove all the

night for this? What the fuck, San Diego? Like, what is this? It was so small. It was the smallest gig I think we've ever played. I think this room's bigger than the stage. It really was one of those like, are you kidding? How do you even put 90 people in here much as, you know, the gear? Yeah. So and we were, you know, we were loud. Yes, you were. I was there, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Good times. That was, yeah. Good times. So, I touched upon it, but what was your perception of that music scene at the time? Because, you know, San Diego sometimes gets the L.A. and then there's San Diego. Did you feel there was its own thing, or did you get, do you basically as feels wrapped in an L.A. I didn't pretty much mind to it. I thought the overall music scene was really, really nice, man.

And there was just some really nice music being made, you know? Yeah, really, yeah. Cool records were being made. And it was, look, we're the last of the Mohicans to kind of catch, you know, record labels, giving us some bread for a video. And I loved every aspect of the creativity, you know. Yeah, at the time I kind of resented it, but now I realized it was actually a blessing because it was the last time.

No, but it's the last time there was any kind of order. Right, right. Now no one in this business can tell you what's, successes. Right. I think Kurslake just got done doing a video for you guys and we were shooting the Vaseline video. Yes. And it was March, I think. It was cold out, cold and gray. We were off in the ocean at the airport. In that ocean scene, we're going out and we get out, and we're going out. And Kevin goes, oh, I'm so sorry. The camera leaked. Can we go back out? And I remember, do you remember what I said? And I know Kevin just did one of your videos. I said,

Does Billy Corgan have to do this? Well, no, that he took me up in the mountains above San Francisco, and it rained all night, and I froze, and I complained bitterly. Oh, man. Wow. Billy Corgan wasn't having it, you know. Yeah, yeah. But just to make sure, because I'm curious, so where did you see yourself fitting in at that point? Because, you know, because California has a way of, like, everybody's so laid back sometimes, like, the lack of ambition, musically can kind of be shocking.

But why would I want to fit in when I was meant to stand out? You tell me, brother, but... Now, I'm saying, what was your sort of mission statement at that point? Did you have one? Second record. Survival. To be able to make a second and third, to be able to have a recording career. Right.

That was it, man. I just wanted to keep making records. So you were kind of there before Scott or during or just all kind of... No, when the four of us were together, that was... the lightning in the bottom. Right. Yeah. It was survival for me.

I was working at Mesa Bogie on Sunset Boulevard. And, you know, I was... Did I ever come in there when you were in there? I don't think you did. I would have remembered if you came in there. Because I didn't like Mesa Bougat. Now, that's paying dues, man. Yeah.

Mesa Bougy on sunset through the 80s. If he'd only survived into the Nickelback era when Mesa Bougy was really over, then he would have had something. That was all the hair band still. I was there on like 80s. 88, 89. That must have been some fun conversations. It was a lot of dude. Yeah, bro. Dude, bro. Yeah. But it was kind of survival. I mean, we had those songs written, and it was funny because Scott worked across the street. He'd chauffered models around. So he was across the street, and he'd run over. And Scott, you know, he was always a little spazzy. You know, he would do this and he'd come up. over, I got this idea. And I'd pick up a guitar and we'd

kind of sit down. It was a good thing we had there. So he's working across the street from the Mesa shopping? He was. He was. He was. It was Lloyd's right next to Lloyd's. Right by Lloyd's, yeah. Vintage guitar, was it? What was Lloyd's? Safari? No. Lloyd and Alphonse. Yeah. But yeah, it was kind of, we had these songs

and I think it was just a matter of having these songs we were collected and making that first record and not really not really thinking about where it was going to go i mean getting brennan o'brien we we originally had eddie offord come in okay who engineered and mixed yes right okay eddie offord that would have been your dream right i mean you're a big yes guy right we we we picked his brain oh god we it was you know that that chris farley skit where he's sitting down with paul mccartney Not enough. Poor Eddie. Chris is sitting on the Paul McCrary and goes, do you remember when you were in the Beatles?

That's what it was kind of like. We were young and Eddie was sitting there and he'd go, all right, let's take that from the top. And we'd play a little bit and then we'd stop and we go, how did you get that sound for Chris Squire on, you know, it was a lesson. On Torado. Yeah.

Torado. Man. Deep. Silent winter. Freedom. Have you seen John Anderson's recent touring? Have you guys been all that at all? With the band geeks?

Amazing. Amazing, really. Have you seen it? Yeah. Amazing. Wow. First of all, he's 79 or 80 now. He's still singing in all the original keys.

Crazy, right? Okay? And he's got these younger guys, probably late 30s and their 40s. So it's like hearing yes, like the 70s version of yes. So he's playing those songs with all that lean, that rock lean. And he's singing in those keys, you're like, I saw. on play outside of Chicago, he got a standing ovation after every song, it was that good. Note for note perfect with a band that can play all that stuff and him singing all the notes.

And you're like, what? Oh, my God. And I go back to John, like, how do you do this? I don't know, you know, good genetics, you know. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You and I. Yeah, they're amazing.

So when did the ubiquitous record people start knocking around? was it 90? 1990? Yeah, probably around that. The first record was going to come up, 92? 92. It got delayed a little bit because of the name. Mighty Joe, yeah.

Right, and then it got... Chicago fella. What's that? Chicago Young. Well, there was also the movie, which was the fake King Kong. Right, right, right. But we had that, what it was,

six months delayed. Wow, that's... When you're young, that must have probably going to turn to me. Oh, God. Oh, we were like, our career's done. We were literally at our art guys who was putting the record together. Mighty Joe Young, all the pictures.

Oh, it looks great. All laid out in his studio. All laid out and the manager calls. Yeah. You got to change the name. Yeah. Oh, what? See, I had a different experience.

They begged me to change the name because it was so bad. Smashing Tompkins? It's a great name. They hated it. Really? Everybody hated it. Everybody along the way tried to talk us out of it. And even James of Darcy didn't like the name.

Really? My only argument for it was if you heard it once, you never forgot it. Yeah. Because, you know, I beat somebody in a bar. I thought it was cool, man. What's the name of your band? And you tell it. And six months later, they would be like, how's your band smashing pumpkins?

It was like, it's just, I was like, it's good marketing. You know, it was a cool gig, man? And I remember you guys played there was, remember English acid? Oh, yeah. That was our debut, LA gig. Ah, that was a great story. So it's sold out. And, you know, we're at capacity, whatever's 450.

and all four members of REM show up and they tell them, can't get in. So he turned all of REM. Come on. All four of them away from the door. So Jimmy Chamberlain shows up and the guy's like,

hold on, can't get in. And Jimmy goes, he goes, but I'm the drummer of the pumpkins. He says, yeah, and I'm Jesus Christ, you know. Really? He couldn't get in the gig. The guy wouldn't let him in. You know, so we're all like in the dresser.

We're all right, fuck Jimmy. Oh, my man. This is the biggest gig of our lives, you know. And he couldn't get in. Yeah. Oh, my. Gosh, man. That was one of those gigs where we had been touring, you know, doing the van thing.

And this is like our first LA gig, English acid. And all the intelligency of L.A. was there then. Can I know now because I've met everybody that was at that gig. And it was one of those magical nights where we were on point because I think we were so stressed out. Right. L.A., the delay, the vibe, the typical L.A. staff treating you like crap because, you know, who cares who the fuck you are? Yeah, you know, all that. Yeah.

That whole vibe. So by the time we got up, and I think we launched into Shiva first, off a Gish, it was like, all right, you. Chicago time. Yeah. And I just remember the audience just started going like this, like swing. And it was like, there we go. We have that on tape somewhere.

30-something years ago? Cool event, man. It was 33 years ago. It's a lifetime. That's a lot of solos ago, right? It's a lot of solos ago, right? A lot of solos ago. Man.

You're a guitar player, too. But, you know what I mean? The way we think is in terms of leads, you know what I mean? When do I get to play the lead? When's the next lead? And you always had wicked lead sounds. Always great tones. Thank you.

I have this thing with guitar. See, one thing I love about your brother, I'm going to talk about him like he's not here. He's a very patient guitar player. Yeah. He doesn't rush. Yeah. You know what I mean? He plays beautiful, languid leads.

Yes. He can shred like the best of it. him, but he also, I don't have that ability. Like, something goes off in my brain, and I'm like, go. Right, right. Go. Terrible on a habit trail. Well, it's not just that.

I think, I feel like if I slow down, it gets boring. Yeah, yeah. And I'll play and I'll think, oh, that was really boring. And I'll hear the recording back, and I'm like, I sound like I'm a methamphetamine. But it's, the aggression is what makes it great. Yeah, but something's wrong with me, I feel like. Man, it works. Works.

Back to you. So you get the big record, dude. STP, here you come. There I am somewhere in Chicago. You guys come on. What was the sex type? Sex type thing, yeah, yeah. I watched that video.

Scott's got the short hair. Yeah. I think, who the fuck is this? Right? They aired the video, so it came on. Manager calls us, we're playing Florida. It's going to be on at midnight. Going to be on at midnight.

Was it 120 minutes? Yes. Comes on. Was it a day with the Brad on his head? Yes. Remember? Yes. What was his name?

God bless us. Awesome. The sweetest guy in the world. Remember you always had the rat on his head? Yes. Can't remember his name. Dave something. Yes.

English guy. Yes. They show the video. No credits. Remember they had the credits in the bottom left corner? Name of the band. I think you and I were on the phone. I was like, dude, they don't have.

That's like such a. Oh, we're like, we're done. We're done. We're done. Who messes that up? I don't know. Curse-like. Kevin Curseley.

Josh Taft did that video, actually. Josh Taft, yeah. Okay, now I have my own selfish opinion at this point. I'm going to set that aside for a minute. What did you guys feel? Because you caught on fast, but there was this vibe, and I wasn't helping, that you guys were sort of like jumping on some bandwagon. Knowing you now, you weren't.

Right. But at the time, that was the vibe. Yeah. Did you feel that? No. I was jumping on whatever I could, man. Show me the band. I don't you sound good?

No, but I get it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think we were just, I don't know. I've always, mind you, certain things, but I've never gotten past listening to music past 1980. So I think it was all those influences that we all grew up on. Yeah. And I think, you know, when we came out, I think it was a writer's, you know, a critic's way to get their piece and their claim and their stake of, I'm going to call this grunge and I'm going to call this, this.

And, you know, I think that's really what happened in that era. And I didn't really look at it like that because I was, I was in like 50s clothing back then, wingtips and my hair slicked back. I was just doing my thing, you know? Yeah, I just, because I always wonder how it feels on the inside because, you know, bands have their own kind of social economy, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I'm saying, like, how things balance and, like, you know, if you know anything about you too, like, it's really Larry's band. Yeah. But you have to know all four guys to understand what that really means.

Right, right. Even if you told somebody through a camera, oh, it's Larry's band, they don't know what that means. But when you're with all for you two and you see when Larry talks, everybody goes like, oh, here it comes. Larry has this kind of moral authority in you, too. Yes. So I'm always curious how bands react to hyper pressure. You know, for us, it crumbled our brains, you know. Yeah, I remember Tom Carole and our guy was, he said, you know, fasten your seatbelts.

And that was good advice. I always took that. But I was, I mean, like you, I was just, I was glad to be out of Mesa Bogey. Yeah, yeah. And have a record deal. dream come true. Yeah, then begins this crazy rocket ride that you guys. Rocket ride. Yeah, you know, one of the greatest things that I'm sure you'll agree, you know, we've, we've all had great fortune in doing some really wonderful things for our career. One of the greatest

is getting to make these records with Brendan. Yeah, my goodness, we had such a great time making these records. Okay, but do you know that you know the Brendan O'Brien smashing pumpkin story? I feel like I told you. Yes, you did. Do you have, I didn't tell you? I might know it then. I think Brendan told that story, actually. Here's my version. So our, and our guy was Mark Williams from Georgia, which is I think where Brendan's from, right?

Yes. Okay. So he was really pushing Brendan to do our post-Siamese stream record, which became melancholy. I've already got it in my head between all the drugs I'm doing and whatever else is going on. I'm going to make it up. You?

Oh, yeah. Billy. I'm still here. Yeah. We're going to make this sprawling double album because my reaction was, I'm sick of being lumped in with the grunge bands. Yeah. Right?

You would be included, by the way. Yes, yes. Sorry, man. Yes. I waltz away from you. Okay. Yes. Graceful.

Follastards. Call you all. Yeah. You can't follow me. So he insists that Brendan O'Brien come visit us somewhere on, I think, Lollapalooza. Yeah. So here comes Brendan on the,

on the tour bus, the classic. I'm playing him a cassette of some demos. I don't remember. And Brenna says, what do you think? And I give out my whole spiel, this sprawling record and this thing. And it's day and tonight and the whole thing. And he goes, well, you know, I just did the Stone Temple Pilots record. And we did the whole thing in a week.

And I said, mother, I hate the way this band works. This band works with me, Jr., in front of a council with some. someone like you doing take after take. Yeah. Layering all the guitars. Oh, by the way, I'm also the bass player. Yeah. You know.

Yeah. So that ain't going to happen. Yeah. God bless STP. God bless us. So, so, but he dangled you over my head. Gosh, I'm sorry. Oh, no, no.

Because, but, but look, I just knew it wouldn't work for us. It had nothing to do with you guys. But he kind of used you as like a cudgel, you know, it would be like, well, they can do it. And I'm like, well, mother, this man. But he was, he wouldn't have the patience for that because Brendan's one of these guys. So that's what he said. Yeah. To be fair, he was like, I don't have that kind of patience.

And I said, well, I do. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we sat on an eight-month journey, which became that record. Yeah. And we found someone in Flood who was willing to go into that insanity with us. Right. Take after take after take to mine out this whatever the hell I was after.

See, ultimately when you listen to it, it's brilliant. Oh, thank you. And no one really knows the insides of what it takes. And all those takes it... Yeah, that's the weird thing. It's like you sit down a wall. watch a movie, do you really care? It either works or it doesn't, right?

Yeah, yeah. debut record, yours, 8 million copies. Yeah. Crazy. I know. Beautiful. I know.

So what was the other singles on that, sex type thing? We kind of, well, we had, I was doing guitar on a friend's demo in like 90, and I was coming up with these parts. Is it?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I was coming up with some parts and I was like, oh man, that's, I think I'm going to keep that. That was the, da, da, that was great guitar playing, man. Plush. That was really good.

Thank you. Plush was that song. Do you know, though, that Scott ripped off a pumpkin song in that song? Did he really? In which song now? In plush? I don't know the name is the title. Are you going to hit me for bread when we get out of here?

No, no, no. I owe you money, don't I? There's, there's, and you'll know, because you know the record, in the pumpkin song Suffer, and I feel, and I feel in a to-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So I'm watching MTV, somewhere in America, and that song comes on, and I hear that, and I'm like,

Ah. Yeah. I have to go back and revisit that. Yeah. Good rip, though. Hopefully he gave you some money. We'll get to Scott in a second. I love Scott.

Me and him got him just fun. Yeah. Here we are, three architects of the chaos of the 90s. Yeah. Well, we do have the rare vantage point because obviously there's plenty of posthumous criticism and critique and what shoulda-cuda. And you know it as well as I do. There are these people who do this weird winners and losers thing, like who won the 90s and who lost the 90s. It has nothing to do with record sales somehow.

It has to do with somebody in New York's opinion of who won. Not people who actually are, by the way, still out rocking and melting faces. Yeah. Right? So from the inside, what was your take on the kind of the cultural part of the 90s? I was super critical, you know, and I took a lot of heat for being really critical of the falsehood of what I thought was happening. But you guys never seemed to me be overtly political in that way. But sitting here now, how did you kind of perceive the social part of it all?

Well, I mean, our first single took a very hard start. stance, you know, Scott took this, you know, first-person stance of a, you know, basically a rapist, you know. And so, I don't know, man. I mean, I can appreciate artists that do take that stance and do that. I, for me personally, I just wanted music. Yeah. You know, I just wanted music. I didn't want any controversy.

You know, I like the path of least resistance. Did you see you guys as sort of? And I don't mean this any dismissive way. Did you see your music as somewhat escapist? You know what? I was always very into the social engineering part of it, which is part of my great weakness. But I couldn't help but tinker.

Yeah, yeah. But when I listen to your music as a fan, like it puts me in a good place. You know what I mean? Like I don't feel like somebody's beat me over the head with anything in particular. I think a lot of our stuff, you know, Scott was writing most of the lyrics. I think it was very autobiographical of what we were kind of experience. leading up to something and what we're experiencing after.

So in that way, it becomes reflective of the times, right? You're in it and you're talking about it, and that's what it resonates. I look at it this way. You know, I'm sure you have friends that come out and visit you on the road that don't play music. Yeah, yeah. They rarely listen to music, and they go out there and they go, holy, how do you do this? How do you?

I'm tired after a day. Like, well, how do you do? And I think, you know. It's one of those things where we all got tossed into this washing machine. Yeah. And I'm saying, did you, sorry, I know, how did you feel about it all? Does that make sense? I know it's not, I'm asking it artfully, but I'm asking you to sort of read between the lines.

Like, you know, it sort of was way, like my favorite word of the 90s was integrity. Right. They used this word like a weapon. Right. Well, we did silly things. You know, we went on Saturday Live and it was like, well, you're going to play plush because it's your hit right now. No, we're not going to play Plush. Featuring Billy Corgins.

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to play Naked Sunday, which was a buried track on the record. We kind of, you know, it seemed like there were times when it was like, well, that's not cool, right? It's not cool. And it was like, well, just, fuck it. You know, let's just do what makes us feel good, which we ultimately always went to. So in hindsight, looking.

back, because these are what they call Halcyon days, you know. Do you feel like you got your message across? Does that translate? I feel like you did, so maybe I'm answering your question, but do you feel like you guys got what you wanted across? Musically, yes.

Musically, yes. Yeah, without a doubt. There's nothing I look time, but yeah. Yeah. There's nothing I would look back at and do differently as far as my own playing. I still enjoy it. Look, we're still out playing these songs. We did something right that we actually liked to go out.

Having toured with you and listening to the crowds react to you, you know, night after night after night. It's really beautiful. It's really beautiful to hear. When are we going to do it again? I'll do the heartbeat. Touring with you guys is like the easiest thing in the world. Demanding great. We have a good time.

Awesome. It's awesome, man. I play with you guys every night. We're demanding. That was a great time. I play with you guys every night for the rest of my life. back at you, Billy. Yeah.

So, you know, can we, that was really a wonderful time, man. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, we love playing with you guys. Yeah. And listen, as you know, because we got to give a little love to your drummer, Jimmy Chamberlain, he's nice to all the drummers. He's nice to all of them.

Yeah. I've never seen him not be nice to a drummer. Right. Okay. But I hear who can play, who can't play. He has this warm, spot for your drummer. Ah.

That's so sweet. All he ever talks about is that guy's fucking awesome. He loves your drummer. Wow. Eric. And he's one of the only drummers I've ever heard him praise. Wow. Praise.

Not like, oh, he's all right. Wow. That would need a lot to Eric. Eric's got a neighbor man. Every time I see Eric, I say, Jimmy Chamberlainly loves you. Wow. Because that's a very select club. That is.

Because, as you know, because we're in this game. You got Jimmy Chamberlain on the bill and other drummers who can't play. I've seen him go up there like this with shaking. For real. I'm not even making it up. Absolutely.

I've seen him crush other guys' souls on the drums. And when we were an indie band playing CBGBs and stuff would be some snoddy indie band. And we get up there with our Marshall Half-Stacks, as you know. And we just stomp them to the fucking ground. Yeah, yeah. Good times. You took a lot of flack.

I didn't help that with my stupidity here and there. But how did it feel to you with the kind of the criticisms that you guys got? I'm not interested in revisiting the negativity. I just wonder how you sort of processed it because everybody processes that different. I decided to go to war with everybody. Yeah. Scott seemed particularly sensitive to it. Is that accurate?

Yeah. Very, very sensitive to it. Yeah. Very sensitive to it. Sorry, but because I, when I got to know Scott later, and, you know, I guess later, in the 90s and it seemed to really hurt him that he wasn't viewed as an artist. Does that translate you? Because you know better than I do. But that was my sense of it.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. He was really trying to create this thing. Yeah. His own thing. Yeah. And to be quite honest, I mean, most of core was from Jim Morrison. It was that kind of Morrison derivative that he was.

But isn't it weird? It's like at the time, those. stuff, that stuff seems super stressful when you're young. And now you look back, it's like, well, of course he's just trying to figure it out. Oh, yeah. How do, who knows who they are? I mean, there are a few of them, but they tend to die pretty young. You know what I mean? And we know their names and they're on T-shirts. Yeah. The rest of us kind of got to kind of bounce around. Yeah. And what's weird is, is he seemed to not always be in his identity or not know who he was at different times. but when you look back now musically, his voice is always there.

It's weird. So was more of a personality kink? Does that translates the way I'm putting it? I don't know if he was always happy with himself. Well, that translated for sure. That gets into a therapy session. That gets deep. Yeah, and I'm not trying to drag you through that.

No, no, no. But he, you know, he wasn't always happy with himself. I think he was really struggling to find out who he was getting pulled into this whole thing. I mean, he was, at first, you know, it was like, man, I'm taking all the heat and all this stuff. And, you know, Dean and I just wanted to write the best songs we could write. Yeah. You know, I think that's what it was. And I couldn't be a lead singer.

I couldn't be out there doing that. I'm too sensitive myself to do that. Yeah. I remember talking in one time at a, it was like one of these L.A. kind of things. And he was there with, I think, his wife. And, you know, it's like you find yourself in these weird situations in life, sometimes where it's like, there's me, you know, somewhere in the late 90s, trying to convince Scott of how great he is. Yeah.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Was he listening? I think he heard me, you know? And I just remember the look in his eyes, it was like he was sort of intimidated by the challenge of it all. It wasn't intimidated by what I was saying. Yeah.

He had a tough time with all of it, man. Right. So the reason I come into this story in this particular moment is because I know what's like to stand there and have people focus on. you and all that. So at least I was trying to do the, I get it. But look, you've made it through this gauntlet this far. Here we are in 1999 or whatever is the year. Like, you've done it. Like, we're here. Like, you survived. Yes. You know, and he was going through a period of sobriety, and that was obviously very tough on him to maintain. So it was cool to have that conversation

with them. It's something I really hold on to because I at least feel like on some level I was contributing to the positive side of the equation. Yeah. And I'll get to where I contribute to the negative side of the equation in a moment. Did you guys kind of adapt to kind of an us versus them, or did you just not see yourself as part of that conversation? No. Just play and...

Yeah, it was just... We were really having a good time, man. See, where you remind me, this, your take on is very similar to James Iha's and the Pumpkin's take, which is like, why are you stressing out about it? all this stuff, you know what I mean? Here, today, gone tomorrow. James, yeah. Yeah, James seems like he would do that.

Yeah, yeah. So we have that dynamic in our band where he's like, why you've got to be so uptight about this 18 things? Yeah, yeah. You don't understand. So I'm not trying to get that out of you because I wish I was more like you in that regard where you can just be like, yeah, it is what it is. It is what it is.

I think there were far more positive happening than negatives. Well, that's the beautiful part. Yeah. And again, I saw that with you particularly on tour, is you guys won. Yeah. You won. I mean, it doesn't really what anybody thinks, including me. You guys won.

I mean, you got this stack of music. You're still out there crushing it. You know, it's like, you won. Like, that's the thing I respect. Yeah. Yeah. Because we can go back and tie machines and say, you know, 1993, what were you thinking? You know what I mean?

Right. That's all on the fly. It's like going to a quarterback. Like, why didn't hit the open receiver? It's like, well, the guy who was 400 pounds was barreling down in my head. Yeah. And my ankle hurt. You know what I mean?

It's like... And we're in our early 20s. Yeah, that's what I mean. Wow. A lot to be thrown at you. My... Making it about myself again. And I hope you remember this moment because it's something that I really hold dear to my heart.

You guys put out... Now, this is one of those... This sounds like a Scott title. Tiny music, songs from the Vatican. Is that the... Is that your title? Well, I... kind of came up with this thing Vatican gift shop. I thought it was such a great play on words and

kind of just a... It is. You know, Vatican gift shop. And I called Scott and I was driving on the 101. He was like, oh my gosh, I love that. And this is well before we did the record. Yeah. But when we were at the house making the record, we had those little magnets with all words. Okay. On the refrigerator. Yeah. And I just saw these words and these two words popped out. Tiny music. I was like, I got the name of the record. Tiny music. We were all like, this is great but Scott really wanted to use so it became tiny music so it's both your title well and I was like dude can we just call it tiny music and he was like really you know when Scott got something in his head back me up here I don't have a vote but I love songs for the vannock it is yeah songs from the

yeah so it was kind of two things I came up with but you know the first one tiny music was thanks to the so was that your third album third album okay so that album came out that album blew my mind And up to that point, I wasn't an STP fan. You know what I mean? Looking back now, I realized how stupid I was being. It was more kind of weird jealousy. But when that out, no, it was true because, look, you know, you understand. The competition at that level, particularly that time, was fierce.

Sure. Like it always has been with other musicians. I can't speak for other eras. You know what I mean? I can't, you know, look, you talk to Sam of Sam and Dave. You know what I mean? He was competing against Aretha. Franklin and Otis Redding and, you know, I mean, like, Stone Cold Legends.

Yeah, I think of that moment when, you know, Hendricks came to England and, you know, Clapton and Jeff Beck and, yeah, they're all sitting there and go, here we go. Like, we're out of a job. Yeah. I think, I think, to be fair to us, we all had those horrible contracts where they could drop us at any time. And we were playing basically a non-commercial form of music. Yes. like our music at that time was not it wasn't mainstream they created radio stations to play our music right

we didn't really get we didn't set out to right hits if we were if you were echoing the bunny men you played the ergon ballroom in chicago and you were winning you weren't playing the arena right right right and if you were you were like that was like a miracle yeah yeah you know the police or something like you know they crossed over into pop and sting and all the whole thing that was if you were an alternative world that wasn't even within reed And when those dynamics change with nevermind, okay, now we're all in that weird pressure. So I might just be rationalized. Maybe I was just jealous because you guys are good.

Anyway. So that album came out. I don't remember why I had it, but I was living in New York at the time. And it was one of those things where I had the CD in. And I remember listening to the record. I thought, wow, this is fucking great. I was like, I didn't know these guys could do that. So that's when I became an STB fan.

A tiny music. Yes. Well, it's so interesting because that record is so bare bones. But that was what it was. First of all, I was moving into more production. So in my mind, to be more sparse, that takes guts. Then to wrap it with this kind of new wave-ish, I don't know if you take it that way. A little bit of cheap trick, a little bit of whatever cars.

Is that fair? Yeah, that's all in the mix. Yeah. Is that fair? Sorry, I don't want to... No, no, no, no. Yeah, a little bit. I guess, I mean, I...

Sadly, I missed that new wave thing. I have a much greater appreciation for it right now. What's your take on that record? I got to think what's even on it. I mean, you know... It was a Big Bang Baby. Yeah, I was going to mention that song. So Robert and Scott wrote that.

And that's just the excitement of, you know, Robert coming to be like, check this out. Yeah. Be like, oh, that's great. And, you know, I was tripping on that record? Tripping. Tripping. And Eric kind of piece wrote most of that musically.

And that was such a... And, you know, we made that record, and it's the memories that I've made while recording these songs. You know, we made that record out in the beautiful San Inez Valley and this massive house. We all lived there and wrote and recorded, and it was just... It was fun. I look at it this way. When you're young and you go into a studio, you're like a little overwhelmed.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And you're like, well, it's supposed to sound a certain way because it's a big studio and it's a producer and everything. And, you know, I think as we, Purple was made in Atlanta,

in a smaller studio that was a little more, oh, this is kind of a house, but it's, and then the third record was a house. So I think sonically, the atmosphere kind of dictated how the record was going to sound. I mean, Brendan brought in a Mackeyboard. I mean, that was...

It was recorded on a Mackey board. Well, yeah. It doesn't sound like it. Yeah. We really utilized the rooms, too. And so I know we had the amps out in the foyer to capture that reverb. It was all natural, you know.

Yeah. We were cutting drums in like a cedar line closet and just lady pictures. Silly stuff, you know. Well, all I know is that record blew my mind. And as the story goes, I saw you guys out somewhere in New York, I think it was. And we were somewhere at the same restaurant. And I saw you guys sitting over there. And I thought, I need to go over there and apologize. I remember this. And I came walking up and I saw you guys look at me like, oh, God, no. No. Stop. To be fair, I'd been publicly critical of you because in my estimation, I was first wave and you guys weren't the first wave. It was so.

stupid and I sat down can I sit down? He said sure you guys were super nice as you are and I said I have to apologize. You guys are fucking great and I'm a huge fan now and you won me over and I'm sorry for anything I've said and we've been friendly ever since. Absolutely. Because you guys are

fucking great. Well right back back to you thank you but I love that story because your music won me over you see what I'm saying? Like your music trumped my own bias. I didn't want you to win you understand I wanted you fail because it'd be one less guy

got to shove out of the way. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I love that I was able to go, you know what? These guys can belong. Thank you. You've proven that. Thank you. But it was that for me was that moment where I was like, so now when I go back and listen to a sex type thing or whatever, I'm like, this is a great song.

You know what I mean? I'm not hearing it through the bias of like, oh no, what's this? You know, another guy on the battlefield, I have to. There is a difference between the musician brain and the listener brain. Again, to be fair to James I. Yeah. was always the guy that when we would play with other bands, you know, he'd go over there with the beer and talk to them and be friendly and I'd be like, uh, he's a sweetheart.

Talk to them, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was always more like sort of like he didn't, he didn't, he didn't understand the combative aspect of my brain. Right, right, right. Um, I feel like you guys have been put on the block 18,000 times about Scott's issues. So, when I set up this part of our conversation, I'm not here to find fresh stuff or tell me the story that'll break her heart. It's more of like, I'm more interested in your inner navigation because I think it ultimately gets to what I want to get to, which is why we're all still here. Yeah. You know, in a perfect world, everybody would be alive, all of them. Kurt, all of them. Like, we'd all be still rocking and we'd all be arguing about who put out the last best album. But that's not life.

Yeah. Right? That's just not life. So, you know, In my band, we had two drug addicts, so I know that vibe. I know you guys had your struggles. Again, I'm not trying to do the therapy version of it. Not at all. But when was the first time in that, you know, you started 89? Is that accurate? So from 89 until whenever it went south the first time,

when's the first time you're standing there somewhere going, how do I navigate this insanity? Wow. I think it was after doing that 93 tour with the Butthole Surfers. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah. I think that's when Scott kind of took a turn. Yeah.

And was experiencing, I mean, look at, you know, you know, it's like going out on the road is like joining the circus. And you go out there. And the Butthole Surfers was literally a traveling circus. Ghibie was his own circus. Yeah, yeah. but Scott hung out with Gibby and yeah and you know I think um he was introduced to some things there that maybe tickled his addictive fancy yeah yeah you know so that's the first time you're like uh-oh

yeah it was early it was early on and I think um believe or not and uh we don't say this a lot but you know, a few of those records were almost not finished. And it was a sit down with Brendan going, what are we doing, guys? What are we doing here? We're going to finish this record? I mean, from purple to... It must have been there, too. It must have just broke your heart.

Here you are. You're rocking. You've got a great band. You've got the world in front of you. And it's like, and we're dealing with this. Your own guy. I found the hardest thing in dealing with addicts, and my father was an addict as well, is is there's no logic.

No logic. You keep trying to solve a problem logically, and there's no logic. And you drive yourself crazy. Oh, you drive yourself absolutely crazy. That was the greatest thing about me going to Al-Anon, if you've ever been to Al-Anon, was understanding, like, no, this is actually what everybody goes through. This doubting thing of this guilt or why can't I fix them? Yeah.

Why can't I say the magical words? Yes. You know, I'm a wordsmith, right? Like, why can't I just tell you this magical thing that'll make it all go away? Yeah. And, you know, where Jimmy's addictions were prevalent in the first half of the 90s with the band to the point where he ended up leaving the band, then Darcy's addictions became part of the story for the... It was like we sort of relived it with another person.

Yeah. And then when Jimmy came back, then we had the twin version. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Uber empathetic to what it feels like to stand there And you got the record guy over here You got the manager over here

You got somebody's stupid girlfriend over here Yeah You know In our case, you know, one of our band members Once brought their drug dealer on tour Yeah The drug dealer was on the tour Yeah

Because well they Sounds logical It's logical It's easier to get the drugs Oh yeah We don't have to go out and score they can just, they're right here. Right.

What's to worry about? So let's turn it to this because you guys are one of the great brother duos. You know what I mean? There's only been so many, but you are. You know what I mean? Did that come into play? Like, you're being brothers? You know what I mean?

Because like when we go on in my band, it's not like, you know, James is not my cousin. Right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's my spirit. We had each other's backs, man. For sure. We had each other's backs.

And, you know, we can include Eric in that, too. Yeah. It really, we completed records. Yeah. We finished records. You know, here we are, gosh, what's it been 30? When do we start doing this? 1989?

Yeah. So how long has it been? 30-some years, whatever? I'm horrible at math. But, you know, I don't know the dynamic within your band, but, I mean, Robert and Eric and I, we still, you know, we still have this love and adoration and respect for one another. You know, it's not like, oh, it's like, you know, I don't want to know.

Well, I don't mean to be as stride as this, but maybe that forged something with you three that you wouldn't have otherwise. It's like the good part of the bad part. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. I can speak for my relationship with Jimmy Chamberlain that all those adversities have everything to do with us having such a strong relationship now. You know?

Yeah, yeah. You guys have been through a lot. the ability to forgive, the ability to, like, let's just get on to the next song, you know, let's not pretend, but there's other music to make, you know? Yeah. And that's what I love about what you guys are doing is the way you solve the problem is just keep playing and keep making music. That's important.

I'm curious because, look, we all know how talent Scott was. And, again, you know, like these great singers, the adaptability. So he leaves, there's all that. he's got velvet revolver. That must have been hard, you tell me, but it must have been hard to watch your guy, and he was your guy, go out and do it with somebody else.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And not saying you were rooting against him, but it's got to be hard because you're thinking, well, you should be here. Did you feel that way, or am I imagining that?

I think at that point, I was kind of, he was in a, he was not in a good place. So it was almost like, like, good, like, I'll take a break. Take a break. Yeah. Take a break.

at that point. I remember driving down Melrose, and he was not in a good place before that. And I remember stopping at a stoplight and seeing what looked like a kid going across the street on a skateboard. And I'm like, that was Scott. Really? Oh, my gosh. He was living in some apartment off of Melrose. And it got to that point. I was like, that was Scott.

Yeah. Yeah. I know what apartment you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I certainly looked at it like, again, my perspective as an outside person who's interested. It was interesting to me that his talents were applicable in a, like, let's call it even heavier genre. Yeah.

It's not that you guys aren't heavy, but you're not like riff, riff, riffy. Yeah. Yeah. So it was cool to see him make that. transition and see this other kind of crowd come forward and kind of start to really celebrate what a great singer he was. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't the worst thing in the world. Yeah, I think it was a great opportunity for him. Right. And it worked out well for him. So I know what this feels like, but I want to hear from you. Okay, you're sitting there. Now you're having this meeting. Some years have gone by.

Should we open this door and do this all over again? Yeah. What was the, was that hard for you? Or was that you feel like, okay, let's give it another try. Was it positive or was it like trepidacious to use the fancy word? It was probably, yeah, there was definitely some trepidation, but there was a lot of history there. Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of history, and I think we stepped into it lightly. Right. That first day of rehearsal, was that the first day?

I know what to talk about. That was the first day of rehearsal. Yeah, he didn't show up the first day of rehearsal in very good health. And we're like, oh, right, should we pack this up? We're right back to it, yeah. Yeah, and it brought up, I think that day was, for me, it was like, it brought up a lot of ghosts and a lot of things. I'm having anxiety because I know that feeling.

You know the feeling. Yeah. And I remember just going. you know what, I'm going home. You know what? I'm going home. Yeah. Yeah. But you did put it back together.

Did put it back together. And it was stayed together for a while. It was good for... We did a record. We did a record. Yeah. Yeah. Was it also called just Stone Temple Pilots?

It was eponymous. It was like four just called Stoneberg. I don't know where to go with this because I'm not interested in the dirt stuff. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not that interesting. Give it to you, baby. Does me anything. Yeah.

Don't tell me. No, because I think, look, we're all in the clickbait world, right? Yeah. I don't give a fuck about the clickbait. To me, it's the fact that you guys are still playing. And where talking about these things is useful is to give people some context of why we endure, why we carry on, why we persist. You know?

We love music, man. We love making music. That's obvious. Man, you know, look, for me, you're only as good as those who are around you, right? These guys make me look really good. You know, I love, you know, what Robert brings to the table and Eric and Jeff. I love it. Yeah.

You don't really think about that often, but then when you get in rehearsal, because we rehearse, when we do shows and tours, we go over to Eric's garage. and we rehearse in his garage. But, you know, he's on a little amp, and I'm on a little amp, and just on this little, you know, PA system, and we're kind of, we're not... You're not full volume. We're not full volume. But out of that, I can still appreciate,

and I can appreciate the quality of our friendship and our chemistry. Yeah. And the songs. And that... Sorry to interrupt. How blessed are we to have written some of these songs? Yeah, man.

It's amazing. What amazing thing. I'm sure you get teary sometimes when you're rehearsing. It's amazing. You're like, this is pretty cool. Yeah, when you guys go into 1979, the place goes nuts. Oh, man. It's like, wah!

Yeah. My daughter, who's five years old, she'll say to me, Daddy, were you young when you wrote 1979? Were you five years old when you wrote 79? Like, almost, yeah. That's funny. Is there a message at this point that you want people to understand about your band? Like, what's the, what's the thing that comes to mind?

I think we've, my brain doesn't work this way. I know. I love putting you on this time. I know, right. I think we've all. See, that's why you're a good guitar player. Right, thank you. I think we've all formed our own version of immortality.

Okay. Is that safe to say? Yeah, yeah. I think we've all, and I think that... That's well said. And I think, you know, the songs you've written, the songs we've written, and you realize that, you don't always realize that. Yeah.

But when you're together as a band or you're, like I said, rehearsing or you're playing out, you look out and you simply go, holy shit, man, this is... Yeah. We accomplish something here. Yeah, and to back you up on that, when you play, I still see you, like I still see the same you that I saw in 94 and 98 in 2002. Same with you. Well, God bless you for that.

I'm not so sure about that. Oh, man. But what I'm saying is that your joy of playing, I see it. You know what I mean? And I know you was a man, too, that helps. But, I mean, I see it. Yeah. You don't have a fake bone in your body.

No, no. In fact, you had a heart attack on stage and kept playing. He did. Oh my gosh. He did. He gave me a look from across the stage where we were in the middle of Wicked Garden. And he gave me a look like,

me at the drums, and I walked over here, he goes, I think I'm having a heart attack. I'm like, look at it like 5,000. Do we stop? I'm like, look out of like 5,000 people. I'm like, that's what I said. Should we stop?

He's like, no, just keep going. The show must go on. Yeah, well, there's something sort of beautiful about wanting to die on stage, you know? Well, now when I get on stage, I have a little bit of PTSD that I'm going to drop dead in front of a crowd of people. Did Robert tell you about our 57 number? I know your father died?

57. You almost died at 57. I had a double bypass at 57. Quadruple. He knew about this. Quintuple. Quintuple. Quintuple.

Sorry, I said quadruple. I left one out. All at 57. Yeah. That's the card we were dealt, man. Well, I'm 57. You just made me realize. I said something I don't know if you were to remember it,

but when we toured together, I had this beautiful moment where I was like, wow, these guys got like another 20 years if they want it. Do you feel that? I think so. Musically, maybe. Hopefully health-wise. I guess I'm talking just strictly musically.

Yeah, yeah. Because we're in this weird thing now. I guess we should think the Rolling Stones, but we're in this weird thing now where people will still want to see us play. Crazy. Way late in this game. Yeah. So if we're on that timeline, we might only be about two-thirds of the way through it.

Yeah. Which is hard to understand, given the adversities that you've experienced, right? And the heartaches. It blows my mind sometimes, you know. Yeah. I had this epiphany recently where I was working on the new puns. Tompkins record. And we decided to kind of do a, I tried to recreate the same dynamics that created the early 90s records in the band. I thought it was novel to go back to the same brain space.

Yeah. And I did and I didn't. And hopefully when you get to hear the record, you'll hear the good and the bat and that. But I had this moment of like, okay, I'm kind of back here playing in this sandbox one more time. And I'm thinking about my age. And my children are very young, eight and five. So that's part of the equation. And I had this moment of like, you know, I could actually start over and I still have 20 years of start over. Yeah. Like I could make a music that I've never made before that I don't know anything about, kind of like what you're doing with your solo music. It's like I think it's important for us to remind each other as friends that the public's expectation of who we are or who we were is not as valuable as our own.

well said and um i think it's really cool as someone who admires both you greatly and admires you as men too back at you billy thank you yes that when i stand there and watch you guys play i'm like these guys got so much more music left in them that's so cool it's awesome that should be our story like if that's our epitaph right yeah that should be our story yeah like they rocked till the end, you know? I'd try and. Yeah, but, but you know what, we've all grown up in, like, let's call it the baby boomer version, right? Yeah. You technically qualify as a baby boomer child, right? Latch Kee, do you have that stuff? Were you latch Keech? Absolutely. Right? Okay. Yes. We grew up, you know, Gilligan's Island and, you know, television was the, you know, life was television.

Absolutely. And, you know, and then, you know, we run into, you know, let's call it the 90s version, the record business, which was too old to be fresh, and basically we were on the edge of the dying decade of it, but we didn't know that. Here comes AOL and here comes Napster and all the things that cost us a gazillion dollars. And a lot of people don't take that in account when we were being treated bad in the early 2000s about some of those dynamics. We didn't make that second round of Pink Floyd money when they introduced CDs. We lost all that bread. And Gen X doesn't have a lot of statistical numbers to back it up. So even if we're popular with our own generation, there aren't enough people to actually go out and vote. So for us to persist and we're musical brands, right?

For us to persist and be making music, that's, to me, that's the victory, you see, which is why I wanted to talk about all these things within that context. There's so many things that you have to boil down. And isn't that life as you get older and mature you, it all boils down and comes down to this little diamond that you have to kind of appreciate. But isn't it crazy that you had it from the beginning, but you didn't know you had it? It's like the Robicuelo book, Alchemist. A lot of sand in there and a lot of dirt and a lot of other stones. If any part of my heart hurts, it's hard maybe for people understand this translation.

I hope you understand this translation. If any part of my heart hurts beyond just the obvious sorrow of, of us losing people that we loved and admired. Your guy Scott being one of them, Chester too. It's this notion that everybody should still be here for the party. Like the party's not over. You could argue in many ways the party's just getting started. And it's again, it's important for us to remind us as Gen Xers

to not let even the current social idea of what it means to age gracefully or whatever to limit our capability. Yeah. And I think you guys have always led with music, which is your great strength. It's like it's in the riff, like take it or leave it. Yeah. We're going to have a good fucking time. Yeah.

And we're going to rock hard, you know. I think the problem there with everyone that's not here anymore, it never was a party for them. Maybe. Maybe. I think that's what's been so appealing for both myself and Robert is, you know, I don't know what it's like for you, but, you know, we're really within this net. We'll call it what you want.

We're really within this net of, you know, people know us for STP. And, you know, if you listen to lessons learned or stuff I've done outside, it's really nothing like it. Yeah. And that's what's been so fulfilling to go out and really, express ourselves musically that is, you know, we've been within this for our whole lives. Yeah. You guys have done a wonderful job, I think, of balancing your responsibilities to, you know, STP worldwide, the brand. But then you're always doing all this cool. I see you got, like, you, like, you're playing with people like, how'd you, I know you tell me some of these things. I can't

remember who, but you've done all these like, oh, yeah, I was playing with so-and-so, and who are some of those people you've been playing with recently. Like, you can do, they're like the coolest. Like, no one calls me. Like, I'm super jealous again. Well, I think it's always been a goal to interact with the people that influenced. Get to the good part. Come on.

Yeah, just different people. Drop some names here because every time you tell me this stuff, I'm like, that's so cool. Yeah, it's just, you know, I've played in Hollywood Vampires for a little bit. That was fun. That was fun. You know, we. But I'll see you on stage jamming. with like, I don't know.

Billy Gibbons or Gary Wright or, yeah, just stuff like that. Yeah, you did stuff with the Dreamweaver, Gary Wright? Did he pass away recently? He did. Yeah, God bless him. So he was a neighbor of mine. He was kind of like a dad to me. Yeah, what a great artist.

Oh, God, he was just, you know, he got to hang with the Beatles. And he's, you know, it's just interesting to me to listen to the music that I've, that's inspired me and know he was a part of that. You know that Harry Nilsson's version of the Bad Fingers song, Can't live, live without you. He played the piano on that. I had no idea. That's Gary on that and played on...

Sorry, but that's why I started the show, and that was my pitch to the people I'm doing the show with, was I want to talk to people that I admire. Yeah. And talk about stuff that we, I think, we admire as musicians or as artists. Not the public take. Right.

The public take on somebody like Gary Wright would be like, like, oh, you had that one great song. It's a dream waiver. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, no, you don't really get it. Right. You don't really get it.

No, he was deep. He was deep and did a lot of going to India and meditating with George Harrison and very good friends with George. And, yeah, just he was, I miss him. Yeah. Miss him. So anyway, I wish I had your life. That's what I'm trying to say. Okay.

Last thing. New STP rock roll record somewhere in there. It's been a few years. Maybe. Am I crazy? Robert was throwing around. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. What would be your reservation for not doing the record? Dean's working on a record right now, and we're both working on our own records right now.

Right. I think that's really... I'm not trying to be crass, but like... No, no, no. Because every time I go into a Pumpkin's record, I go, oh, here we go. Like, I need a... There's a lot of history there. You could do a bewitch, just twinkle your nose, and it's done?

That's why I love the concept of AI. You know what I mean? This idea is just like, hey, sad, mournful, some hopeful D7 chords, 42 minutes. That's funny. You know, sounds like with a dash of plush by STP. That's funny, man. Like, oh, okay, I'm going to go.

I'm going to go read my artie book now. But I'm saying, is there a reservation? Let me ask this, because sometimes when I get at the very, it's usually at the beginning of a process of making a new Pumpkin's record, there's that voice to me that says, nobody's going to care. And that's that nagging thing of like, oh, God, do I have to go through this again? Are you trying too hard? Yeah, you're trying to try too hard.

Are you trying to, you know, hang on to your youth way too long? Whatever. It's all those inner doubtful voices that artists have about, let's call it the futility of our exercise. Is that in your equation at all? Okay, let me give you one little story. This is, by the way, I'm not trying to talk about myself. I want to encourage you by talking about myself.

So when James came back to the band, circa 2017-18, I took James and Jimmy out to lunch and I said, hey, I want to do this sprawling concept record. It'll be a sequel to Sheena and Melancholy. I gave him the concept about a guy exiled into space. And they basically said no. Oh, shoot. Wow.

It worked out in a way because it would probably be too much to put on the situation with us trying to kind of get our act back together figuratively. Yeah. So pandemic, I'm sitting there bored out of my mind. I spent three weeks making a 1965 kind of psychedelic record, which I think you guys would enjoy. Some groovy base on there. Yeah. And then I got to the end of that, and I was like, hmm, I'm just going to do the concept record. And I'm not going to ask for permission.

So did this record, 33 songs, crazy, sprawling concept. I called it a rock opera, knowing that somebody was going to have a problem with me using the term rock opera. Just put it out there. Like they lead with your chin, right? Yeah. Since that, our inner dynamic has changed and our outer fortune has changed. I'm not saying it's because of that record. I'm saying it seemed to sort of shifts of energy with us.

So I guess my encouragement to you is that if you do what you do, you might be surprised. There's something about the commitment to the insanity of the thing that makes no sense that is appealing, particularly to young people. It resonates, this is my version, it resonates to them as that's what they're looking for. That's what rebellion feels like. I'm going to do the thing that makes no sense at all. And as I've told you, not everybody in my group always agrees with my excess, including managers and all that. You know, like, why? In 1990, I got pulled aside by a manager at the time.

This is before Gish. And he said, just write the pretty songs. No one wants to hear your loud nasal wrong songs. He said, you're really good to writing pretty songs. And the girls will love it. stick to that. Wow. Oh yeah. What I'm saying is, is you guys are really good at what you do, so just keep doing what you're doing. So are you, Billy Corgan. No, but I, but I, but I, you know, I get, I get the pause, but it's something about wading into the deep water, but that's sort of interesting.

Yeah. We have a lot to be so grateful for, man. Like, we get to do this, this far along, too. But think of the guitar tones. Just. Think of the... I do. Think of the tunings. I know you do. I know like me, you lay your head on your pillow, you're like, well, I only... Right?

Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say, I feel there's this shift going where there's an openness to our musical generation starting to take chances again. Yeah. People want to see some leadership and like maybe a little sense of swagger. If we're not pop, we're not pop. We're not shiny. We're not perfect.

You know? What is it that they... really want from us beyond catalogs, beyond greatest hits. Like, what would you have left offer? The one thing you have left offer, and I'm saying this to you pointedly, is the one thing you have offer is you know what actual rebellion looks and feels and smells like because you were there. You saw it both as an observer in the clubs, whether you're watching Black Flag or whatever,

right? You were there. Like, you saw it. You knew the people. You felt the vibe, right? There's this great quote in Bob Dylan's book Chronicles where he says, I would go in and work with these producers, and they would want Bob Dylan's 66, and I would try to give it to him, and I just couldn't.

So I sort of finally addressed the existential question for myself. Okay, give me Billy Corrigan, 1992. Go. Okay? 57-year-old me picks up a guitar and goes, okay, I know how to play like that. I can play like that all day. I made that. Appears different.

Don't think the same, not doing the same drugs, not chasing the same bad goth girls. Can't recreate the circumstance, but I can certainly put myself back in the moment of discovery for why now, if I was in that same situation

with that same riff, I would go right. Why, when I was that age, did I go left? And the key factor was boredom. A restless sense of boredom. I didn't have a minute to be indulgent. And if I did, I believed in the indulgence.

For example, a song you would know from us, Cherbrook. The intro was one minute long, who made the video, Kevin Kurslake on a mountain in San Francisco. Of course, the record company comes and goes, hey, Chairbrock's five minutes long. Can you guys cut that intro? And I said, go fuck yourself. And you know where we got that intro from? We store it from Bightour and the Snow Dog from Rush. do da da da da da da and da da and da and da and da and i was like no fucking way that intro was fucking great

yourself and they go well m tv i said i don't give a shit yeah who was that guy that was willing to stand up against the record company m tv and say i don't give it i like the way my song goes so try to get back to a space of asymmetrical i'm going to chase excitement so the one thing i did for myself was i refused to add any vocals or any melodies to any of the songs until all the songs were recorded. I'd ever done that. Wow. So my only information was sit back in the couch and go, that track rocks, or that track takes me somewhere. Now that I believe in the track, now I have to write a vocal and a melody that lives up to this. So where it's difficult for us, I think, is if you listen to a lot of young people's production, because of the way they work

within technology, they're doing that restless version of things. They're not playing like, oh, I can't, the guitar's in E, I can't change the guitar tuning here that's, you know, we think linearly as rock musicians. So it's getting into that uncomfortable space of like mashing things together, putting riffs together that don't belong. It's not to chase something as much to sort of re-approach, like, at what point did I stop using excitement as my guide and start using my intellect or my desire to sound like, I don't know, you know. Free and 74, you know, because I like the guitar sound. You start to become more of a master of your domain, but there can be a, there could be a tendency to get too kind of into your own trip. You start losing the tactile thing of like, I need to make people excited first. Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's like the art trip, right? Yeah. Well, here we are. Here we are. Let's not die. Let's not die. Let's live forever. No.

God bless you guys. Thanks. Thank you, Billy. Namaste, San Diego. Namaste. Thank you.