The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Diane Warren | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary songwriter Diane Warren for an unfiltered conversation about her relentless work ethic, creative process, and groundbreaking career. Warren opens up about her daily routine, the organized chaos of her longtime writing space ("The Cave"), and her strong preference for working alone. They explore how the music industry has shifted from talent-driven opportunities to data-driven metrics like TikTok trends, why true artistry isn’t about following trends, how resilience, defying doubt, and proving people wrong are ongoing themes in her music and much more.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Who's singing when you're writing? Well, sadly, it's me. I'm always oriented to I got to sing my own song. Yeah. You're lucky. You're a great singer. I mean, you are a song assassin. I love it.

I love that. Is it 1500 songs at this point? You're up in Irving, Berlin, territory of first, songs written. That's what the internet says, 1500. Wow. You know, the data that matters is does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something? So, I'm intrigued about the cave.

Do you have a name for the cave? I mean, I didn't name it the cave. So it's a place I've been writing for. But what do you call it? I just call it my disgusting writing room. I don't know. I mean, you know, Robert Hilburn one time wrote an article and used to be called The Calendar.

It was a magazine. It was really a long time ago. And he called it the cave. But I never called it. I mean, I don't call it anything, really. It's called my room, you know. I've had it for almost 40 years. I've seen the pictures.

Yeah, it's kind of, I mean, I like it in there. I was there today. I start every day there, you know. What time do you start every day? I'm about nine, a little after nine. And is it, look. Okay, what's your normal workday? Because I read some...

I just, you know, my normal work days, I show up like around 9 o'clock and just start writing. And, you know, then I also have a building where my studio is a couple of blocks away. So I usually start out at, you know, my whole place. And then go record whatever you're writing? Yeah, not necessarily recording, but I go have lunch and then I might have a meeting. Or I might, you know, like today, I was just recording something before I got here. So, you know, it's all kind of... But I like to start out the day just by myself.

Like, I have my company that used to be at that. at that place. Okay. And then the COVID shutdown happened and everybody stayed home and I was like, but I went there every day. I go, I really like it. I like being here by myself. And I just bought the other place and I was making that to be where the company would move to. So, so just a bunch of keyboards, drum machines. Like what is your kind of work, pal? Yeah, a drum machine, like, you know, keyboards. And I have a couple of rooms in my old place. And I have a piano, a grand piano in one room. So I kind of just kind of float around both all those rooms. And then I go to the other one and I write in the studio sometimes. So you touch my heart when you talk like this because you and I have a very

similar experience of just thousands and thousands of hours by ourselves. Yeah. It's not weird that it's weird. It's weird that it's weird. It's weird that it's weird. It's my happiest place. Me too. Like it's where all the dreams come true or something. Yes. Yes. I love it. So I really, when you're talking, I can feel it. Yeah, you get it. Yeah. But it's so weird.

Now there's so many people, like there'll be like 10 people in a room, like a writing camp. I'm like that. You know, I mean, I can I talk like that? I'll be believing me a lot. That's fun. But yeah. So it's to paint the picture for our great audience.

Like describe, I know there's stuff all over the floor. There's cassettes. Yeah, there's, I don't know. Is there a dat tapes? Are we going like? Oh, there's dads. There's cassettes. There's everything.

I mean, it's probably like, dinosaur eggs in there. I've been there so long, who knows what's there. I'm either, I'm probably immune to every disease because like I've been there for 40 years without cleaning it. Yeah, so. The mold won't even go in there. Do you, when you go into write, are you focused on one idea that captures your attention? Are you in a free associative state and then go back and review? I mean, I like just to work on one song at one time because I have to give it my full attention because I have to really make that song as good as I can make it. I hate this question, but I'm such a fan of your writing.

I'm going to ask the question I don't like me asked, which is melody, you know, what's the first thing generally? I like to have a concept of something I want to write. So I'm going to steal this because this is really about me getting a free class for me. No, but I'm not that I can teach anything, but I like something that's going to compel me to write it. But it might be just playing some chords like that happens too.

Okay, but if it's an idea, is it a scenario like a... No, it might be just a title. I don't know. Okay, anything. Yeah. As long as you feel... Yeah, feel compelled to do it. Or I might just be playing chords, you know, and then not knowing what, you know, but I don't ever write a lyric first and write music to it. I've never done that. Never, huh? I've done that a few times, and it's always worked. I don't know why I don't do it more. I don't think it's my... Excuse me, I don't think it's my natural state. I think my natural state is melody first. Yeah, yeah. And then kind of, the melody takes, tell them, it tells me the story. Exactly. Okay. Are you superstitious?

I kind of, kind of am. You know, but it's not, that's not why I don't want to clean my room. Please tell me why you don't want to clean. Now I'm just too lazy. I don't know. I kind of like it. I'm used to it. I like it. Well, you know, as we say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yeah, exactly. Explain, I think I know, but I want to hear it from you. Explain the advantage of writing in a place that you feel comfortable in or safe in. Yeah, it's like anything. I mean, it makes it easier if you feel safe. It's like, you know, I don't know how to answer that. I just, I like to be comfortable and then I could just, not think about where I am.

Because, you know, when we write, it transports us. So it's a more, it's a lack of distraction in a way. Yeah, yeah. Even though it's really just, even though I got a lot of distraction in my room, like it's all messy and disgusting. But in my mind, it doesn't, I don't notice anything. I don't, you know, I could, I drive down sunset a million times and I'll go, oh, you know, I'll see something, not realize it's been there for 30 years.

I've been driving by it, but I just don't notice. Yeah. Are you an astrology believer? Not as much, but I do like a good horoscope. I believe in it when it's a good horoscope. So I looked up your birthday, September 7th. And it said this, I thought this was funny. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse,

as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up. I'll say it again. Visionaries, so your date, birthday is September 7th. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse, as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up. I'm not sure if the last part of it makes sense, because I don't know how nurtured I was growing up. Well, that's kind of what I was getting at. You know, there's these apocryphal stories that you read, and of course I want your version.

But this idea that your father was more supportive of your interest in music than your mother. Yeah. My dad was really supportive. My mom was like, how are you going to make a living doing that? You know, and I grew up really literally a mile away from where we're sitting right now. It's pretty cool. It's so weird. Yeah.

But yeah, you know, I mean, the chances of, look, same with you. Like, what are the chances that we would, that you'd be successful for me? There's zero. You know, I don't know. I didn't have anybody in my family that was in music. You know, my dad sold insurance. See, my father was a musician, but he didn't want me to play music.

So it worked the opposite. Everybody assumed he would be supportive and he was totally not supportive. Because it was probably hard for him and he didn't want you to have that life. Yeah, and other reasons, but it's not important. So describe for me, like you. we are in Van Nuys. Describe for me Van Nuys sort of mid-60s because, you know, in Chicago we have such a beach boy

version of California. Right, right. But give me your version in your team. You know, I'm just hanging out with my friends, getting stoned all the time. You're talking about like when I was a little kid or when I was about my discovery. I guess I'm looking for when you really started in, you know, let's call it 10, 12, 14, when music becomes

sort of central to your identity. Well, I was obsessed with music before I even, you know, at what age? it, seeing the Beatles. So you saw the Beatles? Yeah, on Ed Sullivan. But I saw them in person, too, because I have older sisters. Was it Santa Monica Civic or something?

I saw them at the Hollywood Bowl and Dodgers Stadium. Ah, you saw the Hollywood Bowl. Yeah, I remember a lot of screaming. But I remember making my mom by me meet the Beatles after seeing them on that. I think that fuse lit everybody. It lit a lot of people, yeah.

And, you know, I was obsessed with music. And I got to hear everything growing up in my house. You know, my parents listen to show tunes. I had older sisters. The show tunes I can hear in your writing. Which is weird because I don't really hear that, but it's an interesting thing. I can hear it. But the other thing is it's also in McCartney's writing too. You know, he had a lot of showt.

I guess I would say it's, maybe it's not. A melody thing. It's a melody thing. But also the melody tells a story. Right. I see that. I see that. But anyways, when I was 11, my dad got me a little guitar from Tijuana. I started making up songs. And he, he, he, he, was taking me into a guitar teacher and the guitar teacher wanted me to learn scales. I think it was it was somewhere on Balbo and Devonshire, so it's around here too. It's so weird. And he told my dad not to bring me back because I had no future in music because I didn't want to learn the scales. I wanted to make up my own songs. So that's when I started getting the bug to write.

Do you remember like a first song? Not exactly. I remember some of the old songs, but not the exact first time. Right. And who would you have been listening to when you first? To the radio. Okay. So whatever was on and? Yeah, because. Because radio when I grew up, it was like, KFWB, KHJ, they played everything. So it wasn't like so fragmented like it is now. Well, the pop radio at the time was pretty sophisticated. Yeah, but you could hear everything. You could hear the Beatles.

You could hear Motown. Betula Clark. Yeah, yeah, downtown, great song. Yeah, I just heard it the other day. It's such a great key change. It's a great key change in the chorus. Yeah, right. But so I got to hear, it was like getting this master class of songwriting, because to me,

that was the Golden Age. I love the Brill Building, Metal Era. So was your father's support in hindsight just an act of loyalty because it meant something to you? Or do you think he saw something in you? I think he saw something in me. Can you try to define that a bit? It's hard to define. I think my dad was, you know, like after he retired, he would work with actors at this place called the Mee Gott Theater down.

It was on kind of, what was it, Satakoi around White Oak. And I think my dad was like a frustrated performer almost or something, you know, like he, anyways. but he yeah he totally you know supported me he would take me to publishers and stuff and wow i was like an arrogant little asshole but how old is he taking 15 or 16 that's a pretty yeah tell me a story like going to see a publisher because this is let me see one time this was funny so i was like probably about 16 or 17 my dad took me to see a publisher you know and the guy he liked my songs but he didn't you know he said well you know he's go in the studio do some demos my dad goes if you if you like him so fucking much, why aren't you spending your money?

I'll never forget that. You know, but, you know, and then I made my dad get me a subscription of Billboard where I studied everything, you know, who wrote everything, who produced a record. Okay, so when you started doing that, because I started doing that too around a similar age, it was like, who's really running this thing, right? Like, did you start to see songwriters, you know, like you see Carol King's name and you start, you know, do you. Yeah, I would see different names, you know.

But who sticks out in your mind that? Well, seeing Gauphin King was one of the first things I ever saw in a single that when I said I want to be in that parentheses. It even sounds good, right? Yeah, Goffin King. I mean, like I knew Carol King more as a songwriter from Tapestry. Right. Because that Brill Building era to me is like the greatest, you know, songs ever. Amazing.

You know. It's kind of a fantasy, right, like to go back in the time machine to just be in that building. Yeah, those little cubicles. That's why I like to be in a little, like that's why I like my room. You know, I kind of feel like I created my own. version of it. Yeah. But are there any other writers, whether, I mean, you might not have been conscious of them at the time, but are the writers looking back or even then that really stick out in your mind? Yeah, I mean, you know, I loved all the Holland Do's Your Holland songs, all the Motown

songs, all the, like, you know, I would, yeah, you know, people like that. And then I would just, you know, really get into, you know, like I hated school. I failed everything, you know, basically. But when I was just, you're obviously bright. So was it, it was just, you're obviously bright. So was disinterested. And I didn't give it. Yeah. But when you find what you, probably like you, you, you find, find music or you find something you love. I was it. I was off. Like, yeah, it's like, okay. Like, I want to know everything. I want to know. And I just, yeah, I would just study everything. This is a bit of an esoterre question. But in your mind, is there a sort of a California dream? I mean, you grew up. I grew up here so it's, I could see it from the outside, I guess.

You think it's like probably like beach boys and I'm around the beach. No, I mean, we were in the Valley. Me and my friends, you know, we had our little, you know, group of weirdos, you know. I mean, you know, so it was, you know, it wasn't like, we thought the California dream because we were, not that we were living the California dream, we just were like Valley kids. Sure. Yeah, I think it's hard because back in Chicago, through the prism of television, this looked like this magical. Right, it's almost like how Hollywood looks outside. Oh, absolutely. You're in Hollywood. It looks so. Like glamorous. Yeah. And cool or whatever. Yeah.

But that's what I love about you saying your dad took you out of publishers. He was like, let's get in there. Yeah. Because that's where you would go. That's where he would take it. And then there was this thing called the songwriter showcase that my dad would take me to. Tell me, so just explain that. It was Len Chandler and John Bahaney where they had a showcase that they'd showcase for publishers and stuff.

And my dad would take me there. He first took me and I was like 15. And they didn't really like the songs I first brought them. And I'd argue and say, you don't know what you're talking about. I was such an arrogant little. brat, you know. And then my dad would, you know, go, you need to listen to them. And they'd go, Mr. Warren, you go in the other room. And then, you know, they'd talk to me. And then I'd come back the next week with five more songs. I kept coming back. And then finally, you know, I got to be

on their showcase. I was like 16 years old or something, you know. But, you know, I don't know. I'm always someone that keeps coming back. So. It's the title of your documentary. Relentless. Yeah. Relentless. Yes. I am relentless. At what age did you think, okay, I can do this. This is like my thing. Oh, I thought I could do this when I had no reason to. Like, I thought I'd be like, I thought it was great when I wasn't. But I think you have to have that, you know, you have to have a little bit of that kind of self-deception, you know. Okay. So what makes you great? I don't, I mean, what makes anybody great is, I don't know, hard work and talent. Yeah. And when you can't have one without the other. Absolutely. Talent without work,

doesn't mean work without, hard work without talent doesn't mean. But if you- So you have, the drive innately. Yeah, totally. So once you found that thing, you were like. Yeah, this is it. And I'm, and I'm still as driven and hungry as I am ever. Like now. That to me is impressive. You know, yeah, I don't, I never, like, my rearview mirror, it doesn't work. So I just, I don't look at it. Because, you know, your chops haven't been in dispute for a long, long time. And I can always get better. So I always want to get better. But that's, that's what impresses me as a fellow writer is like, you just won't give it up. No, no. Like, there's no resting on the laurels.

It's impressive. It really is. I don't even know where the laurels are. I think it's your most admiral quality because talent is a weird thing whether you want to argue was given to us or, you know what I mean? It's like we were sort of hit with a wand

somewhere coming down. But the rest of it is really up to us. Up to us, yeah. And you have a gift, but it's what you do with it. Yeah. Did you, because of that environment, that late 60s, early 70s environment, did you see that being a woman in the music business on the production writing side was going to work against you?

First of all, I never got the memo because I'm a woman. I couldn't do something, you know. No, I don't mean it that way. I'm just talking about the culture around you. Oh, no, I never wanted to be a, well, I never wanted to be a producer anyways. But did you feel there was any prohibition? No, because it was, I didn't feel there was a prohibition because it was never anything I desired. You know what I mean? I just wanted to write. and I never felt, like I never felt because I was a girl that it was going to be harder. I think if I didn't mean like, maybe I'm not phrasing it.

I mean it along the sense of like if if a young man walks in an office in 1972 versus a young woman walking in office in 1972, right. By and large, the history of this business is the man would have a better opportunity to be heard, listen to, support it. Oh, I see that. female writer on the business side, you know, meaning like, because the business of making music is its own business. Right. You know, you own your publishing and all that type of stuff, right? Right. I just was wondering if there was any, you felt any of that coming in. I didn't really feel any of that. That's amazing. No, I didn't. Maybe that's just your, I think it's also different if you're an artist, if you're being a female artist, that what might be, you know, a different kind of thing,

I'm thinking. I don't know, yeah. You know, but I never, I just, that's why I ask the question, because I assume things, but sometimes I think it just might be in my own head. It's like imagining. Probably, I mean, it's a legitimate question. So when you start to enter into like, let's call it the professional side of the equation, what's the first time you're like, okay, I'm here, I'm in this weird Willy Wonka world of, now I'm a writer, now I'm, what's like, for you, what's the first like stake in the ground that you see?

Like that, that I, well, I always thought I could do this, you know, and make a living at it. You made that clear. Okay. But the first time I, like, it was like, wow, I have a hit record was Rhythm of the Night. Yeah. Is that 85? 85, like 40 years ago this year. So weird.

I was like five when I wrote it. I was such a prodigy. Yeah, so that was. Great song. Thank you. Yeah, it's. My father used to cover it, you know. No.

How cool is that? Wow. What did your dad play? Guitar. Wow. It was more of a, he could play lead, no problem, but he was a great rhythm player. Wow. So he liked anything.

that had a good rhythm. Yeah. I think I'd just got in my drum machine, a Lynn drum, is that what it would have been at the time? Yeah. And I was like playing around with that, that's how that song started. So describe the music world,

because I'm always interested in what it felt like. So it's one thing to say, and I wrote the song, it was a big song in 1985, but it's another thing like, what did it feel like to you that environment? Because the music business back then was smaller than it is today, less corporate than it is today,

maybe a little bit more Wild West free for all. Well, I was signed to, you know, this German publisher, his name was Jack White, not White Stripes, Jack White. So it was like my first publishing deal. You know, so I was kind of, I don't know if I'm answering the question, but. It's just, I'm just trying to get a sense from you, like a snapshot of what... Of those days, like it seemed a lot more fun. Like, you know, like, you know, that is...

era. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, yeah. Before it got really corporate, yeah. That's kind of what I'm out. And then later on I became a couple of my friends were in promotion, record promotion. So I would go out with them and, you know, to remember La Dome back in the day? Oh, yeah. You know, and all those places that were like just and, and I wasn't really a partier. I was, you know, I wanted to get to work the next day. And I'd be staying at my friend's house, you know, and getting ready to get up to work. And, you know, her roommate would be coming. They're all coked out of their minds. You know, they'd come. You know, they're coming. They're all coked out of their minds. You know, you're coming. They're coming. They're coming. They're coming. They're back in the morning and I don't know those were crazy days yeah that's kind of what I'm after it's just like it's important sometimes because especially I think for young people uh especially people looking into getting into the business whether it's as an artist or as a writer they're presented such a corporate wound up weird business must be weird to get in now it's like all like about tic talk and that's what I'm trying to say like would the best greatest artists in the world be signed now would prince be signed you know if it's TikTok numbers are high? Right, would you have to do silly stuff to?

Probably, which is so, it's so sad. That's kind of what I'm after. It's like, you saw it. I see. So I grew up and I came up when it wasn't like that and I'll be in the studios. I work with a lot of young artists and I'll be like, oh, so why aren't they promoting that song? Oh, it's a great song. It's a great record. Oh, the TikTok numbers aren't high. Oh, the data. Like, you know, the data that matters is does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something? Yeah. And it's so, it's so, it's so, data, you know, it's just, it's the antithesis of... Yeah, it's not a harp. It's more of like, I think it's important to illustrate that the

business that you and I came up in had a different sense of opportunity, which is like if you were willing to go for it and you got it done and you have the gift to do it, it doors would open. Now, imagine you get... Well, doors can open, but if your TikTok numbers aren't high... But that's what I... That's what's so crazy. Like within the Springsteen days where they'd wait to, I think was his second album that... broke, you know. It wouldn't have even been a second single. Yeah, I mean, they would have dropped him. I'm sure you've heard those stories where major labels in this town will sign artists solely on their numbers. They don't even care if they can sing. Oh,

I've worked with some of these. I've worked with some of them. You know, yes. And it's like, oh my God, you just, it was like like some kind of viral TikTok thing that was lightning in a bottle. This isn't a real artist. It's like they're not going to last. Yeah. You know, and I've Yeah, I deal with that sometimes. Okay. I'm curious of, was there a point where you made the decision, I don't want to be the person behind the microphone, I want to be the person? Oh, I always knew I didn't want to be the person behind the microphone.

I always knew I just wanted to write. Really? Yeah. So somehow I got the sense that at some point there was a moment where you, okay. Again, maybe I made that up. No, I've never been a frustrated artist. I never, no, but I did start a record that I might finish just for the fuck of it. like not that I care about it

but like I know I like being I'm very happy behind the scenes with better singers singing my songs Is there a frustration though that comes in when you know you've got a song and you can hear it in your mind and you trust it and then the person singing it doesn't have the right understanding of it It's not the right voice this the

It's happened it's happened But is that frustrating? Once it's a hit I'm like well it's the right voice But what I'm saying is in my mind I go back to you know, I'm always oriented to, I got to sing my own song. Yeah. You're lucky. You're a great singer. Well, God bless you. You know, I'm like, you know, Blanche Dubois and Streetcar Name Desire. I always depend on the kindness of strangers.

Don't make me that. Do you write with singers in mind when you're... You know, no, I try to write the best song I can write. And then I, then I, like, a lot of my songs go different ways. But, like, I just try to rate a great song. But then my, as I'm writing it, I'm thinking, oh, that could be right for so and so or someone, like, I never thought of, like, Stephen Tyler, like, but I don't want to miss a thing. Like, I never in a million years thought Stephen Tyler would be, A, would ever do my song. Yeah. You know, and B would, you know, that that would have been a song for him. But now I can't imagine anybody else. Yeah, it's just, it's the idea of when you're writing, you know,

in my mind, you would always be the star of the movie, right? Is that fair? Depends on what movie. Right, but I'm saying is I'm not trying to project because again, it's all respect with your gift. It's just trying to understand because you've written so many great songs and you had such great success. I feel like there's got to be some consistent voice in there, even if it's eternal. Does it make sense? I mean like a voice I'm hearing. I wrote so many different genres of songs.

Like, you know, I go from, like I just did something with Angeley Kijow. Then I'll go from that to, you know, 88 to then I'll go to. We're getting to the list of people that have recorded your songs. So it's not one, in other words, so it's not one voice. It's kind of whatever voice is right for that song. So I must be projected. I just imagine. No, it's interesting.

I mean, there are good questions. Yeah, I just curious, like, who's singing when you're writing? Well, sadly, it's me. But that's, but, but, but. I mean, because I'm the one in the room. But we've all had that experience of we're totally into a song. and we record it and we feel it. And then we listen back and go, oh my God.

Like, who's singing the song? The voice in the head, for me, is always stronger than this voice. But you can really say, I don't like to listen to myself sing. So sometimes I'm writing and I pretend I'm somebody else. That's kind of what I'm after. That's what I'm saying. I don't know, but it just is it, is it characters you can play, you know? Well, no, it's like, it might be an artist.

It might be when I'm writing. I'm like imagining someone doing it. But then I come back to Earth and I have to hear me. Are you the type of writer that you go in thinking, I want to write a great song or I want to write a great single or is it, is it, I just try to, I want to write a great song. Hopefully it's a great single too. Yeah, because your success at writing singles is, but you never know what's going to, like some things, you never know. Okay, so. I just try to write great songs. Is there a song? I want them to sound like they could be hits. I want them to all connect. I want them to write songs. But is there a song that we would know that you thought, I really love this song. I don't think it'll ever be a single in a. became a big success. I have to think. Anytime any of them are successful, I'm always shocked, to be honest, because everything can work against it.

Yeah. You know, so when one comes through, it's like, oh, my God, what didn't fuck up there, you know? So when you start having hits, yeah, 85, right? Does the phone start ringing? People started liking songs that they didn't like a week before. I remember that. I love this down.

You know, yeah, right? And then the ones that go. Suddenly you're a genius. Suddenly now you're a genius And all the ones that didn't want to sign you Go oh my God I always believed in you and stuff But it's okay you know you just smile And go yeah you can you can you can you can you

Can you write to order? I can if I have to You know I mean right now I have a TV show that I That I helped develop that's a big Disney you know music show Is it out yet or it's being film now So it's about three young girls Can you say you share the name or? Well it's called how we became the biggest

band in the world. So it's about these three girls, they meet in junior high and they become... So you're writing to the characters. So yes, I'm writing songs for them, but I'm writing hits songs that are authentic to who they are, you know. Yeah. So it is kind of writing to order. You know. This is a totally self-indulgent question. Do you have a favorite key to write in?

Hmm. I kind of tend... I like D. I had a feeling. Yeah, isn't it where? Maybe it's because my name starts with a D. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I don't. I don't, I don't know. I I don't know. I think we, you know, on the guitar, C and G, I mean, all those normal keys, but, you know, I like D flat. I've written some good stuff. D flat. It has a different, it has a sorrow to it. Do you feel that? Yeah, yeah, darker. Right? Even if it's major. Yeah, it's a little dark. It's a bit dark. Yeah. Um, I know you don't just write alone, but. Well, I basically do. I was getting there.

But my point is, is there a, is there an inner reason or that's just, again, your, your comfort? It's just what I, yeah, it's what I'm comfortable. I like taking something from nothing and building, like we're world builders in a way, right? Oh, yeah. You know, like every song is a world. And it has its own laws and its own rules that only fit that. And I love doing that. I love creating those worlds.

So not in the, in the, like we're sitting in front of a bunch of kids, like they want to write songs. Yeah. Like to a pro like me. Like, what's your most sage writing advice? Do you have, like... I mean, my advice for anything, if you want to succeed, to show up. Right. Well, you've showed up.

Yeah. I mean, you've got to show up. You've got to show up and work. I always say, I always say my personal breakthrough, and I want to ask yours, my personal breakthrough was when I allowed myself to write a bad song. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I think I've allowed that to happen. I try not to now, but I try not to write a bad song.

But, you know. But was there a moment where you felt this breaking open of the doors? Does that make sense? You know, like, there are those periods when we're learning, like, oh, Lenny McCartney wrote this kind of cool intro and you kind of learn it and you go, oh, okay, now I understand why they did it that way. There's the mechanical part of learning the chop. And then there comes a point where it's like you're writing your song.

Yeah. Was there a sort of personal breakthrough where you felt that? I mean like learning someone else's song? No, I meant like more along the lines of like a breakthrough of going to another level of writing? Yes, where you're like, okay, now I'm writing my song. Like, this is what I envisioned. I'm writing it. It exists. And now it is in the world. Well, I'll give an example. I mean, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but when I wrote that song, when I wrote because you loved me, I was like, this is a whole different level of my writing. And I, and when I wrote,

I go, this song is better than me. And I have to catch up to that song. That's kind of what I mean. I go, this is, well, how did I write that? And I have to catch up to that because that's just one or other. For people who don't know writing, can you break that down a little? I don't even know how to break it down. I just, it was the level. Was it identifying an emotional part of you that you had? No, it was just the craft of it or something.

It just was just, I don't know. It just, I felt like it was, like I don't analyze stuff. I just kind of do it. I'm a nerd, so I apologize. No, it's okay. That's okay. I just don't really sit in it. And like, I just knew, I just knew, I just knew,

that, you know, when you get that feeling, you know, it's like it's a breakthrough. Yeah, I feel the best writers don't analyze. Yeah, I don't know how I have no clue how I do what I do. So I just show up. I spend all my time trying to figure out how I do what I do. That's all right. This is a fun list. It's long, but I think it's important because for those who don't know why we're here,

these are some of the people that have have recorded songs of yours bet midler stevie b selene dion cheap trick n vogue whitney houston belinda carlail taylor dain brittney spears marcia hines alice cooper christina aguilera biance tlc elia alia yeah yeah sorry heart uh... agnitha fault song is that is that from aba one of the i know what a voice but you're going in the old days a lot of those but i'm just going what's on the paper. Elton John, Cher, Tina Turner, Brian Adams, Selena, Jessica Simpson, Air Supply, Olivia Newton-John, Barbara Streisand, Arita Franklin, Roberta, Robeson, Trisha Yearwood, Patty LaBelle, Michael Bolton, and Sincke, Renee Froger, Lori Estefaner, Reba McIntyre, Enrique Aglaseas, Paloma Faith, Russell Watson, Rod Stewart, Aerosmith, The Colt Kiss, Ricky Martin, Monica, Faithhill,

Meatloaf, Sugar Babes, Mariah Carey, Tony Braxton. I mean, it's just... lot of people on there. Lady Gaga, I mean, Starship, Weezer, Joe Cocker, Millie Vanilli, I mean, it's just... Play around the rain. And this is, this is like, this is just like part of the iceberg. Yeah, that's... So I, you know, obviously I want to flatter you, but... You don't have to flatter me. I like flattering. No. Okay, then if you flatter me, I have to flatter you. It's just, it's just such a rare list of accomplishment.

Oh. Do you feel that? I mean, I don't think about it. I kind of forgot some of those people on the list. I'm like, Renee Frogger, who's... But... Is it 1,500 songs at this point? You're up in Irving Berlin territory of first songs written.

Probably. I've written a lot of songs. That's what the Internet says, 1500. Wow. And I like... Irving Berlin's a hero. You know, he could only play the Black Keys. I know, and he had that thing on his piano.

Is that weird? Yeah. Yeah, I think he played in, what, was it in D flat or something? Well, he would have either been playing in, in, in, in, in, uh, E flat or D sharp, however you want to say it. I didn't, I'm not trained. Yeah, me. Or F sharp. So he's basically playing F sharp, E or C sharp.

Right, wow. And he just never bothered to learn how to play in different keys. How do you write like that, right? I don't know. It's like, right now you can just press a button. Nine number one songs. Yeah. You?

Yeah. I think I'm tied me and Lionel Richie with the most number ones solo written. Look out Lionel. But what a great writer too. Oh, yeah. Wow. Like, great writer. Great guy too.

It's my parliance, but I, you know, when people can write like you, I call you assassins. You guys are assassins. I like that. Someone else called me an assassin. You're an assassin. I love that. I mean, you are a song assassin. I love it.

I love that. I love it. Someone, like, not that longer called me a trained assassin. I like that. Recently, an interview with a fellow musician, I was using the analogy of, like, you know, the gunfighters and the movies. Yeah. Like, you know, like, I'd be afraid to face you on the street, you know. I don't know.

You might, I know, but you probably are too, and you'd probably be. I'm my own kind of a citizen. Yeah, so you'd get me. 33 top 10 songs. Yeah. Weird. Is that enough? No, nothing's enough.

I love it. I love it. It's never enough, no. I got to tell you one. moment that I that really connects me to uh we we've met in the past which was nice because i got to talk to you in the past but this is a let's call it the the snobby musician not really understanding how great you were until this moment oh oh wow you a snobby musician I'm a totally snobby musician okay so but you're talking to me and I'm like the most uncool person in the world

listen you're a lot cooler than you think you are I mean thank you when you can do what you can do, it's pretty cool to me. So I don't care what anybody is. I think you're cool too, but you really are cool. Thank you. God bless you. But okay, so let me tell you this moment. Okay. So I don't remember where it was. It's some MTV thing. Could have been the Grammys. I don't remember. And it was when the Aerosmith song. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, 1998. I don't want to miss a thing. I don't want to miss this thing. And like a lot of old school Aerosmith fans, I was kind of condemnatory of ballad Aerosmith. Oh, right. It felt like it was this new. No, Smith did a day in Warren, huh? It was sold out.

Well, I was probably one of those snobby rock fans saying the same thing. And, you know, remember they used to do that skit on SNL where it would be like, I think Adam Sandler where he would sing like seven different aerosmith ballads. Oh, I didn't see that, though. It was kind of a funny skit. He would sing crying and then like it was just like they would just play the same song, you know, musically. And he would sing the lyrics to like seven different aerosmith ballads. So by the time it got to the song that it was from the movie, I can't remember.

Armageddon. Armageddon. Huge movie, huge moment. And I, you know, it's one of those things like when you're at one of those award shows. I was like in the seventh row. And I could see Stephen, who I didn't know then, and I don't know him now, but I've met him since. But I saw him on the side of the stage getting ready, you know, typical musician kind of pacing around. And he's chewing gum. Like, right? And then, you know, you can see somebody coming over going like, you know, we're about to go. He spits out his gum. And he steps up and he steps up and he. And that performance was just, I was like, and then for the first time. Probably the Grammys, right? Yes. But for the first time, that's the last time they invited me, the Grammys, by the way. So I didn't go either. Exactly.

Right. I'd rather go to the Oscars. God bless. We'll get to that too. But for the first time, I found myself going, who the fuck wrote this song? Oh, wow. Right? I love that.

As a musician, right? Like, as a snobby musician, I'm like, because I can hate that, but. Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that type of music. It's just the way I am. It's nothing personal, but I'm watching him kill this vocal. Yeah. Oh. Right?

Yeah. And so the first thing I did was, who wrote this song? Oh, wow. And then I saw your name. Now, I knew your name, you know what I mean? Because you're just, you're in the ether. But then I started going, oh, she wrote that song, and she wrote that song, and she wrote that song. And she wrote that song.

And then it was like, okay. But I hit them all. You've read those songs? But since that moment, I've paid attention because I was like, because I was like, okay, this person knows what they're doing. Sometimes, yeah. Well, Major League Baseball, you've only got to get three hits out of ten and you're a star. Okay.

They're paying you a billion dollars. Okay, 16 Academy Award nominations. Speaking of them. I'm on 16 right now. Yes. And ask me how many I've won. Well, one of my nicknames is zero, so I think it's zero. I think that should be my nickname, too.

Oh, yeah. No, but it's great. It is, I mean, this is a cliche, it's just great to be just nominee, but it really is, especially with the Oscars. Yeah, but come on. No, there's only five songs. They only picked five out of them. That's the problem. Well, I wrote one of five, 16 times.

Maybe that's what it's going to take. You've got to write all five. Oh, yeah, then I would definitely win. No, but this, I'm really excited about this year. This, you know, maybe, maybe it'll happen. Well, it's a really good song. Hopefully by the time people see this, you will have one. Yeah, or I'll just...

I'm superstitious, like, I can't pre-congratulate you. Okay, yeah, don't do that. Is songwriting therapeutic? Another question I don't like, but... Yeah, but it is, isn't it? Like, don't you feel better when you write and you write something great? I feel better when I write a good song. Yeah, me too.

Even starting one, why I just go, oh, I love this. Yeah, it's totally. therapeutic. Is it true that going to therapy helped you write songs? Is there's that something? It didn't hurt me, you know? Can you explore that a little bit? When I, when I, what happens, I

bought, I bought David Gaffin's house, like his little house. Oh, I was going to, because I've been to the other one. No, not that's why my eyes got really wide. The small one where his boyfriend was living at the time. A while ago, and I tried to negotiate the price down. And he said, you're crazy, you need to see my shrink.

and she was this woman named Beatrice Foster and she was kind of this mean Argentinian but my friends would, you know, people I knew would go you know, it's gonna hurt your writing and all that and it didn't, you know, it didn't hurt my writing at all. Yeah, I can't imagine that. Yeah. So.

This is the, this is the, not the typical, you know, explain it for those in the crowd to understand, but it's addressed in your documentary, which again I haven't seen yet, but I saw some of the clips. But whether it's Asperger's on the spectrum or... I mean, that shrank, the mean Argentinian one. She's the one who said I have Asperger.

So I never technically was diagnosed. But I think we're probably all on the spectrum that do this. Yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to ask. Because it seems like one of those things where it's like... I mean, to sit there and do like sit and do one line of a song all day long, you have to figure it out. I mean, you've got to be a little bit weird. Well, I don't know because I don't feel I'm on the spectrum and I'm just as driven and

And driven and a laser-focused as you are. Yeah, so I mean, I think it's people put names on all these things. I mean, what does that really mean, you know? Do you have that thing and this is a shop question? But like the song gets in you and it won't like won't leave. Yeah. Like you go to bed and you wake up and it's like, oh my. God, leave me alone. Yeah, that happens. Yeah, it does. Have you had the thing where you go to bed and you

wake up and your brain has rearranged the song? No, I wish that happened. That happens to me sometimes. That's your lucky. Which is cool. You're lucky. Because my brain does a better arrangement than I did. Wow. So I wake up and I'll, it figured everything out? Yeah, it solves the problems for me. Okay, so I don't have that brain. I wish I did. It doesn't happen all the time. But have you, have you dreamt songs? Have you had that? No, if I've dream something, I don't remember it. So I don't, I'm never really, I don't really dream songs to become songs. I have three or four songs that came out in records that were from dreams. Wow. Yeah. But they never sound as good on record as they sounded in the dream. Well, yeah, everything looks better and sounds better in anything. In the dream, it's like, oh my God, this is the greatest song ever. Wow. I'm not looking for gossip, but this is not a gossip show. But I'm curious about. I am. You got any?

I'm happy to talk gossip with you. You all. You all. You all. I'm not. I'm curious about gossip with you. You all. I'm I'll talk gossip with all day. But this idea of being single or saying I don't want a relationship. I feel the way it comes off, the stuff I read, it feels like reductionist or something. I don't know. That's just my life. I like to sleep with a cat. But can the cat write songs?

No, so she's kind of useless. No, but I can stay awake just to hear her purring. So I rewrote the Aerosmith song. Is there any connection, though, with being out of relationship? in the literal sense of the word that creates an ambiance around love that keeps it in a certain place for you? Because you've written so many love songs.

Well, I could fall in love in every song because I could be in that character. And then I'm out of it and I'm on the next one. I can write a you song next. I can write, you know, it's just, yeah, I've never got the memo. I had to be in a relationship with anybody. It's just not me.

When you're writing and you're poking around a melody, are you more, is it more phonetic? Are you looking for lyrics? I'm just saying what happens. Athens. Okay. Yeah, I get that. What's your favorite story in a song? And what I mean by that is like, you know how they say in Hollywood, there's only 12 stories, you know, boy meets girl, boy loses girl, girl. So what was my favorite? I don't know. I don't know. You have a favorite kind of mythological. No. Really? Not really. Huh. Do you? It seems to be looking for something that doesn't exist. Okay. I think it has a lot to do with growing up. without my mother. Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah, well, thank you. But so going back to the California. I think mine, I do think there's a theme in some of my songs. Like a, like a, like, you know, proving people wrong. You know, there's always that like, you know, you know, thank you. I'm going to get through it. I'm going to. You got a scrappy thing to you.

Yeah, I'm pretty scrappy, you know. Yeah, I just wondering. Even in the journey, even like the number, this, my latest song with her. Nomination 16. Number 16. We're going to win this time. Sweet 16. Come on.

But basically that's what the song is about. You know, when you're going with your heart, you can go farther than you ever thought possible, prove them all wrong. Okay, so that is foundational. Yeah, there's a mythological foundation to that, right? It's the journey. Is it being small, too? Is that part of the sort of the scrappiness? No, it's basically, it's just basically that against all odds, just like, you know, growing up a mile away from here.

And I'm sitting here talking about a career that I know is one in a billion. It is, might even be more. I mean, you know, so I don't lose sight of that. Is there a musical genre you can't write for? I probably don't know how to write rap. But I can write for rappers and sing. But I think I've, you know, yeah, that's probably the, you know, I don't know. Maybe death metal wouldn't be what I would do.

Yeah, I once got into kind of a quasi argument with somebody on Broadway who didn't think I could write for Broadway. I bet you could write amazing for a Broadway. Well, that's what I told him. Yeah. And I said, you know, that's like telling someone who cooks really good Italian food. They can't cook good Mexican. Right, right.

You don't understand the chop of a writer. A writer can write. A writer can write. Exactly. So that's... But I was just wondering if there's anything that you would be intimidated by genre noise. No, just not knowing that I wouldn't be able to do it or want to do it. Have you tried your hand at Alternative Rock?

You know Not a lot of melody there Not a lot, not a lot But Not a lot of melody there But I know the answer The question

But tell me if I'm wrong Which is like There's never enough songs Yeah there's always new ones There's always another song Yeah yeah I'm always on to the next one Is there

At the root of it Is there some pathological drive there? Probably I don't think about it I just do it Well we're here to think about it No I just It's just what I do

Yeah You know Is there something that you still hope to achieve in song? Just get better at it, you know? I want to just keep writing great songs. You must have been approached to write musicals and stuff like that. Yeah, and there's a couple of things I'm kind of doing. Yeah.

Isn't there something where they're talking about doing like a songbook musical? Yeah, there's one that's in development that's been written and stuff. So it's a bunch of my hits, but with new songs. Yeah. But it's not my day job. It's not really my world. but it's cool if it works. It just takes forever.

It's definitely a different modality too. They're very driven by other forces than we would be in writing pop song. It's not as, you know, it takes too long. It takes a long time. It's not as, you know. You could probably speed it up a bit, but it still takes too long. Yeah, it's still, you know. Yeah.

It's weird because I've talked to people on Broadway and say, don't you want to have songs on Broadway that people would want to buy? Yeah, exactly. If I do musicals, I want to do like ones that have that are hit songs. That's what I don't understand. It's weird, right? It seemed to have worked that out of their business model. Like Oklahoma and all that.

The ones my parents played. They were on the charts. Those were great hit songs, you know. And you can modernize it. Well, not only that, those songs would be covered by Charlie Parker or Miles Davis or Ray Charles. Yeah, I don't understand what happened to that part of the culture. When I do my musical, there's going to be hits.

There you go. Okay, last question. I want to explore this a little bit at depth because it's so at the heart of your writing. Is there a perfect love or a perfect, not love or like a person, but is there an ideal there in your mind? No. Well, it has four legs. Okay. Well, we can go there too.

No, I'm just kidding. Well, my point is, is if you're, what's the oppositional force to the scrappy? fighter. Does it make sense? What am I fighting against? No, it's like if, if, if the, if you're a person who wants to be understood or seen, the foe on that, that end of the equation is somebody who doesn't see you or doesn't appreciate you. Right.

And you have to prove them wrong. Yeah, it's kind of funny. But the positive side, the positive side of that equation is somebody who understands, but what is it that they understand about you that maybe most people? I don't know. I don't know what they'd understand. I don't, I don't know if anybody. understands anybody really. So when you're writing a love song and you're writing about somebody else,

is it just a sort of measmic idea of... Well, I'm just in that character. Okay. Like, so... So if it... It has to be... I'm being authentic to what is being said in that song. But is there an oppositional character usually that you're speaking to?

It depends depending on the song. Okay. You know, it depends on... Yeah, just because you wrote... You've written so many great love songs. I almost wonder... I have some good, you know... songs that are. I've heard the angry songs too.

Yeah, those are fun. I was just wondering if there's like sort of an idealized thing. No, not one idealized thing. Yeah. So I think I have an idealized thing. What is that? What is that? I think it has something to do with my mother. Wow. It has something to do.

Well, maybe mine does too, the proving people wrong. That was the first person I had to prove wrong. It was my mom. Right. That's what I'm saying. You're sort of speaking to somebody. Right. So even if it's about something else, there's a, you know, something and all thing. Yeah, because part of my story is my mother was institutionalized when I was four.

So my mother was in my life, but at a distance. Right. So I had to create a kind of mental version of my mother that was or wasn't real that over time had to be amended. Wow. So when that became a, you know, there's that old, I'm sure you've heard it, like little boys marry their mothers and little girls marry their father's that type of thing. But the notion is that if you have an idealized conception of, in this case, the mother, well then when you go into adult life and you're trying to find a partner, and if that holds true that you're looking for your mother, well, you're looking for

somebody that doesn't exist. Right. Because I had to create an idealized version of my mother in my mind. Wow. Because the real person I couldn't navigate. Did you ever get to know her? Oh, yeah. I was very close to my mother. And it's a very, it's a very, strange long story that I'd love to tell you if you want to hear it. But so I feel like I'm oftentimes writing to like a ghost. Oh, wow. And then by extension, and that's why I asked about California and growing up here because by extension, I think, and I think this is a very similar to a lot of people grew up in the Midwest in basements and latchkey kids. Right. We're kind of talking about something that we were sort of promised, but we know it isn't real. But television created a

fake. Right. Because there it was. And now it's the internet, now it's, you know, Instagram, isn't it? But the 1975 version was Eric Estrada on a motorcycle. Right, right. You know, or Farah Fawcett, you know, Charlie's Angels, all this. It was like, it looked enticing. Yes. And it created a kind of mental idea of something, even though it's not real. You believe it to be real. So you kind of chase it. I wonder how many people came, you know, to Hollywood and, you know. Endless. With that, like thousands. See, you growing up here, I think it's probably a different perspective. The analogy I always get as people get off the bus.

Right. Think how many Sally Mays came from Kansas. They were the high school prom queen. And they came here and there was like a million of them. Oh, yeah. Can you imagine that moment where you look around and you realize you're like, you're working with the other prom queen that was from the other state. Yeah, or the other city right next door to you didn't know.

Yeah. But, you know, growing up, like I said right down the street from here, you know, Hollywood was a million miles away. too. Can you explain that a little bit? Well, just when I'd go, you know, going over the hill to have meetings and it just seemed like, it was almost like being from the Midwest, being in the valley. But not the idealized thing, you know, not like, you know. So are your parents alive or they passed? No, no, they're gone. Yours? Both, yeah, they're gone, yeah. We're orphans.

So when did your mommy and daddy pass away? Well, my dad a long time ago, and he was 70 and 87. My mom in 2002. Okay. So dad got to see some success. Yeah, yeah. Oh, he was, He'd call radio stations and, you know, and request songs. That's so amazing. Yeah, it was kind of cool. That must have felt. Yeah, and then I got a good friend from that because one of the people he called, I ended up becoming really good friends.

So, and your mother, how would she see your success? You know, she saw a lot of them. And she would say she's proud of me, but she wouldn't, you know, I'd say, you know, Mom, I just got to check for like some ridiculous amount of money. She goes, how much you're going to keep? That's that old, that's that old logic. Yeah. You're not, it's not going to last.

Yeah, in the Depression era, because my parents, my parents were older parents. Okay. When they have me, so. Okay, last question. So did you prove whoever you're trying to prove wrong? A lot of them. But not all of them. Not all of them.

Nice talking to you. You too. Thank you, Diane. You know, thank you.