The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Gene Simmons | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with the one and only Gene Simmons to probe beyond the kabuki makeup and monster riffs that made KISS a household name. From celebrating Gene’s triumphant final shows at Madison Square Garden to dissecting the band’s forays into disco and beyond, Gene opens up about his earliest days hustling in rat-infested lofts, his eye for shameless self-promotion, and the emotional weight of saying goodbye to a stage persona that defined millions of childhoods—including Billy’s. Meanwhile, Billy holds Gene’s feet to the fire on everything from KISS’s critical underestimation to the creative interplay that kept Gene and Paul Stanley’s partnership alive for half a century.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Now I have this memory, because I was a kiss fan. I had the kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of kiss. I'm so sorry. Ultimately, invariably, and other big words like gymnasium, living well is the best revenge. It's the reward. They're jumping up and down like biblical locusts going, do-do-do-do-do-do-do.

You know, it makes no sense whatsoever. And you think, oh, boy, they're going to hate. But at the time, the heavy metal fans were not happy. They were not happy. They hated it. I know. So as soon as you start to bend over for the soap, it's not long before you become somebody's... Did I make any sense there?

Sure, but I prefer to make dollars. Oh, that's another one. It's actually too small to introduce you as the man who needs no introduction. Oh, go on. You're bigger than that. Oh. You're bigger than that. Thank you.

Let's start here. How about Dodger Stadium when I saw you backstage? That's a card. That's a card. You're jumping ahead of my narrative. I'm so sorry. If you want to interview me, I'm more than happy to do that. Sure, how much?

10 grand? One hour? You'll fly to somebody's house with a box set for 50? Well, that's changed. You know, inflation. Is it gone up? Oh, hell, yeah. For you to go make an appearance of someone's house,

what would it cost a fan at this point? It depends how long. but they have paid $2.50. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it. You're worth it. That's part of what's in here about how you're worth it.

So let's start here. Yeah. It's the lowest hanging fruit, but I do want to get somewhere with it. So band plays its last concert, Madison Square Garden. Was it two nights? You played Madison Square? Yeah, we just wanted to do one. I'm surprised you didn't play 50.

Well, you're very kind. We were offered many nights, but we just wanted to do one. And then the powers that be, especially the videographers and shmidiographers and all those guys, said, well, what happens if the power goes or something? You got to have a backup. So we did two. Right. We only did two last shows of all time for the band.

I know you love your band, and I know you love your band's history, and we will, of course, get into that. but and you're not a person in my estimation I've been watching you on television since I was a little kid since about 1976 I think is one how old are you 57? 74 you're looking good but here's the point my point you're not a person in my estimation who shows a lot of emotion in your public persona behind the scenes you're you're very warm and very sweet and you've always been great to me. So I don't want to give the sense that you're a cold person. But, you know, you play Gene Simmons on television for living and you've been great at it. And I remember seeing you Donahue or whatever I would see you on and, you know, I'd be sort of Mike Douglas.

Donahue. Weren't you on Donahue? Mike Douglas. Oh, my God. I know you're on Mike Douglas. You know, they don't know what you're talking about. Okay, well, I'm 57, right? I mean, I remember Mike Douglas. Certainly. Okay. My point of saying all this is. past all the obvious part of it. How did you feel playing that last show, knowing it was the last show? Very emotional, especially because you're...

Well, I was a New York kid. We all were, although I wasn't born in America. I know I don't look Swiss. So the band started at 10 East 23rd Street, which was 10 blocks away from Madison Square Garden. So it literally was full circle. Literally.

And I remember a 20-year-old, kid walking 10 blocks to see who's playing Madison Square and you'd see Elvis and stuff like that. Did you go to shows back then or did you know no no I was a one of those classic Jews who simply refused to spend any money and lived at home until I was with my mother till I was 20 I mean we were playing Anaheim Stadium headlining it happened very fast for the band and I was living at my mom's house that's how you know Jesus was Jewish he lived with his mother until he was 33 years old he thought his mother was a virgin you know all that stuff and it was emotional because somehow the

journey know the even salmon returned to spawn where they were bred yeah that sort of homecoming thing it sounds trite to say but did it go fast in your mind no I remember every minute and every I mean I've never used drugs or alcohol which is why I can put my hand in front of my face and it doesn't do that so the mind is clear and I recall tastes smells things I remember seeing people's faces and the overwhelming image I remember is as you're looking around and making you know eye contact with somebody in the middle of you know the the passion and the playing and you know what that's like when you're on stage and you really feel it

and it sounds good and everything and they start crying they get that thing you know because it's childhood it's not just because it's us it happens to any great band that's on stage and has a history because music is the soundtrack of their lives

we talked about this it's humbling when you see it oh it's you know I'm supposed to be Darth Vader and the big bad John and all that. I've got to turn my back often so that they don't see. So you're on stage. It's the last show. Does it hit you? Are you like, I'm glad it's over. It's been amazing. I'm alive. No, not glad. It's funny. There's a coin has two different sides. There's sadness

and there's pride. There's the sadness of, you know, at some point you've got to leave mom and dad and go off on the next chapter of the journey of life. On the other hand, you're proud that four knuckleheads off the streets of New York with no resume, no experience, no right to be here, no right to wear higher heels and more makeup than your mommy ever wore. We're given a chance to make truckloads of money and chicks. But you did. Look, money and success has always been part of.

of the Kiss story. There's no question. But you did it. It is true. So all that... It's like the Jimmy Cagney movie, right? You know what I mean? You did it, right?

You did it. You reached the pinnacle of the thing. There's no higher place to be than you got. It's about as high as I ever imagined it. And as a kid, I remember seeing the Beatles on TV, and I was awestruck by the idea that you could look different. because I never saw guys who were sort of trim and small like that, you know, very feminine moving in a kind of a, because guys were... Right, especially 50s New York, right?

Yeah, you had to walk, you had to have your guy thing on when you walk down the street. Are you doing? You know, there's that street thing. It's culture. And all of a sudden you go, all right, yeah, Shabiel, all right, yeah, all right, you know, They're friendly and almost feminine with the haircuts. And I had never seen anything like that. And I remember thinking they looked silly.

And my mother walked in and told me how silly they looked. And precisely at that moment, a singularity hit me. That's when I knew they were cool. Because all of a sudden I heard my mother say, they looked silly. No, I think that kind of is. Well, the girls are... What do they say about kiss in the beginning? Oh, well.

Not everybody likes Jesus either, Billy. Four Jesuses, not just one. Or two Jesuses, depending on who you ask. I got lots of... They're in the notes. We'll get there. It's worth pointing out, you know, you ended the show with the avatars. That's the word I would use.

Well, in all fairness, just a hint of it. The way you see a sketch on a piece of paper of what the 50-story skyscraper is going to look like. Sure. But this is the likeness writes, The same people don't own the Abba thing, which is doing very well. Oh, it's massive. They've got millions of tickets sold. It's beyond.

The future of entertainment is here. AI does exist. You can sit down. To me, you're a visionary in many ways. So give me your vision. Because we all know this is going to work, right? Kids are going to go see virtual kiss. It doesn't matter if you think it will.

or if you think it won't, the future is here. No, but that's what I'm saying is, you see it and you're also meeting the people that are gonna create it with you. Already being done. Okay, understood. So I'm saying is, for our great viewers, what does that look like in 10 years?

Are people going just as many shows with virtual avatars as they are live concerts? Or how do you balance that in your mind? All of it will coexist and all of it will depend on the individuality of the experience There are some people, if you've never met the Dalai Lama, you would want to be in His Holiness' presence. I've met the man and obviously seen him in media.

That's not the same thing as being in the same room and the back and forth. But I will tell you that AI and avatars and so on are, even by today's technological standards, are about as close to reality as you can ever imagine. So I'll give you a sense of what I've experienced. So most people, young people especially, have had the goggles on where you're falling off a cliff and all of a sudden you actually feel like gravity's gone and so your senses aren't working anymore.

So that's a mind-rock, as they say. Now imagine if you weren't wearing the glasses, your sense of the scale of things and what's happening, when you're in a controlled environment, and they're trying different variations of it. Have you been to the big sphere in Vegas? Not yet, but I've seen a lot of the clips. Well, it's worth going.

It's a very simplified, archaic version of it because you still have a sense of, I'm here, I can look around. I see. And look at the, like, like, goes back to the film. Wilmore at West when they used to have bands and silhouettes and used to have light shows. They go, oh, wow, look, mine, you know, that's not the same thing as the virtual glasses. So if you've been to the sphere in Las Vegas, it's a wonderful, you know, all of a sudden you're on the moon and everything, but you don't lose yourself. This is difficult to describe in the same way that when you're speaking to a Neanderthal, and that's actually the way you pronounce the word, it's not Neanderth fall.

even though it's spelled with it too late. I learned something today. Neanderthal, when you're speaking to a Neanderthal, if you can have a common language, and you're saying, okay, so I'm going to get in my jet and I'm going to be 40, 50,000 feet above the earth enough so I can see the curvature. The words, even though he understands the words,

he just couldn't fathom it. So when I start to explain to people what I've seen, what I've experienced, you understand the words but you have no idea how to sit it you will be blown away isn't it obviously there's the business and there were a lot of headlines about what you guys got to sell your likeness and i'm interested in that but i'm actually the numbers are not accurate i'm impressed either way but god bless well what i'm after is i know it's important to you that kiss musically aesthetically carry on in a particular way it's it's got to mean something more to you

than just a great business deal i'll i'll tell you something or am i imagining that well it's it's uh it's there's more than one answer there was a an idea perhaps an ideal that paul and i had when we first started the band that had less to do with let's get rich and famous although That wasn't a bad idea. Well, it's what my people do. Just, have you got two tens for a fine? You can see who I'm married to, right? Well, even Jesus passed a hat, you know, it's just.

But let's put together the band we never saw on stage. That was the idea. And, of course, in the beginning, I would imagine lots of bands, perhaps most bands say, you know, I've got this creative thing. You know, I'm writing songs and it's fun and everything else. There was a different sense that we had, either better for worse, rightfully, or wrongfully. We would go see bands that we loved, love and spoon, full, slime the family stone, everything. The live experience just wasn't enough.

It sounded better on record, and often you were disappointed by what you saw alive because they were trapped at the microphone, and once you're out, settled on what you saw on stage, you started talking to your friends. It's over, yeah. Is that all there is? Peggy Lee. Very good. I'm very proud of you. For a young man such as yourself.

So the idea of the band is not better or worse than anybody else's idea, but it wasn't I've got this inner artist and all that. I don't care about that. And there's a distinctly different mantra. shall we say, between perhaps the classical and purest visions of music and art and perhaps the way I think of it. Well, your version is the dominant version now. Now it is. When we first started, it was about who's got good taste, and I only gave it about what tastes good.

Well, that's well documented. There's a profound difference. And when we first started doing licensing and merchandising, ah, these guys sell out. and you're talking from people who never learned to read or write music, didn't understand music theory, they were self-taught. By the way, that's very impressive, that people have this urge to be creative and everything, but never went through the process of school and how to do this and all,

just decided to just kind of bumble their way through it and created this amazing popular art form, whether it's rap or rock or anything else. That's an amazing... It's always miraculous. It's miraculous. Some, and not everybody can do that, but I don't suffer fools lightly or whatever that phrase meant, which is all my life I've heard hippies well-intentioned, though they may be,

I just want enough money to get by. I said, I'll make a deal with you. Any dollar you make that you don't think you need, please give me. Because that's going to make me happier. I will never have enough money, power, or anything else, because that's what life is about. Right, but to persist at my point, is it important to you that what Kiss becomes in its posthumous form? Yeah. That's a big word like gymnasium.

It might be posthumous. That's correct. In Kiss's posthumous form, is it important for you that the band is just as significant in this new... No. Okay. Tell me why. Significance is not important. There's this preoccupation with what it all means.

and do I have my mother's hips? That's me. That's me. No, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is I'm clear, and so is Paul. We've had the same vision, though we don't agree on, many things. If we can make you forget about, for two hours, three hours, whatever that amount is,

the traffic jam or that you flirted with your wife's girlfriend, or whatever it is that causes angst, sturm und angst of Deutsch, whatever that thing is that, oh, it gives you headaches, and we can make you forget about the traffic jams or that there are wars. That's magic. That is magic. That feeling, that uplifting feeling.

That's the only thing I care about. You're more concerned, or you're more interested in the kinetic relationship than the aesthetic relationship. Is that a fair way to put it? Because I would like to make the argument that's in my little no cards here. Please do.

About the aesthetic argument of this. Except I'm not sure I know what it means and how to spell it and all that. Do you want me to be more, like, specific? Well, I'll use specifics. I'd rather be, and I know it's not as important, but I think profoundly it is much more important. I'd rather be Disney than Shakespeare.

Okay, I get that. Because Disney makes people happy. That's it. But don't you, I would argue that there is a deeper aesthetic in Disney now. They've watered it down, but it's Walt's vision persists. Okay, but the intention was to entertain. pain and Shakespeare is the man of letters and what it's deep, what it all means and all that. And so there's, it appeals more.

But it goes past a lot of people's ears. Of course. Yeah. Okay. That helps. I want to connect to everybody, even if you don't speak English or if you don't like Kiss, or any band's got that problem, the blessing and the curses, you've got your fans and other people say you suck and all that. That's every band's.

Well, we're going to get to that. But my argument is you've won on every level, so why can't you continue to win on every level posthumously? You can't be all things to all people, and it never mattered to me what it all means. There's very little meaning about, I mean, we never talked about the secret of life, because I have no idea. We're all just passing through, and you try to make life bearable, entertaining. and that's the wonder of there's no business like show. You know, that's the thing about this thing. Is that Ethel Merman?

I think it's very good. I'm so impressed. There's this thing about this American, and it's truly an American form, which is it's not kabuki, or kabuki, as they say, so they're s'nay. And, you know, other forms, classical music and all that, it comes from a place of heaviness where your mind is more engaged. An American stuff, and I use the Marshall McLuhan-esque sense,

even though he's Canadian, is it's Pablam, it's sugar. It immediately tastes good and immediately gets you that. It doesn't last long, but boy, does it taste good. I would like to make the argument in our time together that Kiss has greater value than that. I appreciate it. If that's the byproduct or somebody else does a thesis, on the social significance of the panel graphic art form as exemplified by Mickey Mouse. Go for it.

Okay. Okay. I still want to make my case. This is a circuitous way to get there, so please bear with me. Kiss the debut album. Hotter than Hell. Dressed to Kill. Kiss Alive, Destroyer, Rock and Roll Over, Love Gun, Kiss Alive 2, the solo records. Dynasty en masse, the Elder, Creatures of the Night, Lick It Up, Animalized, Asylum, and so on.

You were there. of them. Yeah. Now I have this memory because I was a kiss fan. I had the kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of kiss. I'm so sorry. No, it was great. It was the 1776 where where Ace was drunk out of his mind. Okay, well, I did not know that as a 10-year-old child. But Peter had the bloody, you know, the 1776 with the drum and great poster. We had it on her, so every day, you know, when the door was closed, there you were before I even heard your band. So the marketing worked, right? But I also have this memory of like somewhere in the 80s, you're doing a bunch of movies, right?

Ponytail gene, you know what I mean? Like there was like suddenly you were in movies. Yeah. And Michael Crichton was the first one. Yeah, yeah, no, you did some credible stuff. And then, of course, it was very much about who you were dating at the time and those types of things. I'm not interested in the tabloid quite. I'm saying this for a reason.

Every band goes through that, any band that lasts, because I've been there, goes to that weird period where it's like, It's not the beginning and it's not the end. It's somewhere in the wobbly middle or the beginning of the wobbly middle. There were some wobbly years there for you guys. Oh, terrible year. Okay, so in my little wrap on these great classic albums, where in your mind, from your perspective,

because you had the front row seat, where does it start to get a little wobbly inside the band? It was less about inside the band and more of what was happening in the world. Okay, so take me through that, please. Music changes. New generations of fans come up. So the birth of grunge and thrash and...

But I'm teaching you're... But 70s and 80s, you know what I mean? You mean what time? Like, I'm saying, because everybody can sit here and play Monday morning quarterback, right? You know, that's easy. But when you're in a band, you know, you've got all this momentum. You guys had... I mean, you guys had as much momentum as any bands ever had when you had it.

And you've had it multiple times, but that early period... Yeah. You guys were omnipresent. You're making a movie, you know, famously Kiss Meets the Phantom. I'm saying you had every version of it, right? So while the band was sane and playing on stage, there was the all for one, one for all. Once Peter and Ace bless him, and they were equally important for the formation of the band, but not everybody's designed in their DNA to run marathons.

Most people, it's difficult to keep a band lineup, as you know. been there and so once ace and peter succumbed to the weaknesses the drugs and the alcohol and all that there was trouble in paradise and then you can you throw you know flammables into the flame and society starts to change and new generations come up and disco comes up well maybe we should do a song and everybody felt victim rod stewart the stones so that starts to change good again sorry to interrupt you but because it's important to We started to get at what I'm after. Where for you, does it, you start to have, where's the first time you go, wait, this isn't going the direction I thought. 79.

79. Which is, is it the disco? Yes, it was the beginning of disco. We were doing, ironically, what became our biggest single, number one around the world. I was made for loving it. And now you play it live, or you used to play it live. We could, you did it all the way to the end, and you could play an ogre fest where there's not a chick within a thousand yards of that. plays with it. And they're all singing. 80,000, you know, death metal fans and they're jumping up

and down like biblical locusts going, do, do, do, do, do, do, you know, it makes no sense whatsoever. And you think, oh, boy, they're going to, they're going to hate. But at the time, the heavy metal fans were not having it. They were not happy. Because I was in those basements with people getting stone, listening to kids complaining. And they hated it. They hated it. I know. And they hated, and I've written songs with Bob Dylan, and that's why I can say the Bob Dylan story. they hated Dylan when he went electric. He was booed right off the stage. You know, when Dylan met the Beatles that first time in London

and that famous car ride was home. Isn't that where he got him just got stone too? They were both high. But truthfully, Dylan was a failed life performance because the kids came to hear, oh, the times, you know, the world's changing and all that. and they got, you know, the hawks rocking out a little bit more. They just hated it.

So every band, look, not everybody likes Jesus. You just can't please everybody all the time. It's not going to happen. You're in arguably at the time. The biggest band in the world, right? I can honestly say we were. Okay. Right?

Massive. Massive. In a way that we changed the business. We had warehouses, 24 hours of three of them, in the Valley shipping T-shirts and everything. We had order forms inside the album so you can just put cash in and 24 hours a day sending out T-shirts in the days went $5 and $10. And before people were opening up your mail.

Okay, so I'm saying is you're standing in this very rare position, which very few people really understand. I never got that level, but I was in the general zip code. But I'm saying there's that moment when it's rocking and it's rolling, everything's happening and then you go what something's it's not a little blip in the road or you know what I'm saying you're like wait this is 79 okay disco I started living with share ace and peter were leaving the band because they wanted solo careers even though we talked them into do solo records and stay in the same band so we released yeah the only band as far as I know that released four solo albums on the same day

They all shipped platinum or something. Ship platinum. Eventually they all went platinum, but it took a long time. Platinum kids in the days of hard goods meant a million individuals actually paid for it instead of, beep, beep, beep, beep, which means fuck all. You can download a billion of something and only make a few thousand dollars. So not to get into a deep psychological discretion. No, go ahead.

No, okay, great. Thank you. Gave me permission now. We know how the movie ends. We started with how the movie ends. You don't know how it ends. The beginning, the end is the beginning. The death of a caterpillar is the beginning of the beautiful butterfly.

This is, we're in the cocoon stage. You just wait. Rebirth, the phoenix rises from the ashes. Okay, so 79. I got to write this stuff down. This is really good stuff. It sounds good. We'll get to transomint, to transcribe everything.

Okay, but 79, you're standing there and you're like, this is a bit weird. So walk me through those weird years a little bit. We were separated. And Paul and I, you know, co-wrote or at least showed each other the songs. And how about this? How about that? He'd bring in a song, Black Diamond.

I'd say, that's a great song, but you need a riff. Yeah. So all those Paul songs, almost lots of them, I'd say that's a really good song. Let me put riffs in that, or at least, because the way I play bass more like horn parts, less like Motown. I always thought you're more of a 50s bass player. Does that make sense to you? Does that translate? More like, do do do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. You know, like more McCartney moving around. More McCartney. And the way McCartney approached bass is really more of a guitar player, almost like a string quartet where the cello has its own melody. and so if you're in ACDC, you can go,

dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, do. But that's always been one of the secret sauces. I don't know. It just is what it was. I'd start playing a bass line at what's going on. You know, that's kind of catchy because it goes over and over. Let's put the guitar, do that, and stop playing chords and just do that stuff. And that's where the rib, but we also had harmonies on top of that.

Look, we didn't know anything. We were just making it up. But trouble in paradise. 79. disco is full-blown. Stones, Rod Stewart, everybody's doing and it's huge.

Everybody's doing. It's not like it was just you guys. And I'm going to Studio 54 and all the stars are there and all that stuff. And we bring out hours made for loving you. And it's just massive immediately. And the core fans are upset, except for the fact that the ticket sales...

You're still selling tickets? tons, making more money, and the toys, the younger fans came in because all of a sudden Mom likes the song, and the kids liked it, so we were selling, and our Kiss Meets the Phantom movie, excuse me, came out. So we were talking about cartoons and theme parks and all this stuff, getting bigger and bigger, but clearly by the early 80s, disco was taking, going into the shadows, and there's this new there was punk coming up and I really like the pistols and the clash and all that but you can't do they already exist you can't just get you know what maybe we could nudge our way

there grunge came out we even toyed around with a carnival of souls with a kind of a makeup is off let's take the makeup off and see what that's so as soon as you start to bend over for the soap yeah it's not long before you become somebody's and I don't want to use a creative language here but you lose yourself and it's difficult to go on a long journey okay so whatever the year because you

face different challenges at different times but let's let's take that one because that's been the so of my focus 79 82 somewhere in there well we we had Peter quote leave the band for the first time he quote left the band three different times

CNN interview famously drugs alcohol, God knows what it was, just a dark cloud. But I'm saying, you standing there, you're in this big band. Again, we don't know what was coming. We already know it now, but I'm saying for you. By the way, we didn't either. That's what I'm after.

I'm trying, I want you to take me into that location because people love to talk about success. You know what I mean? It happens to you, I'm sure, somebody comes up and wants to talk about Love Gun or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, they want to talk about their version of your high moment. But what I often think when people are giving me that conversation is, yeah, but you don't understand all these other things that happened either to get to Love Gun or what happened after Love Gun, where you're talking me through the grace of God because I was able to sort of navigate this through. And you guys always had a particular toughness. When you're out there, hey, we're the biggest band in the world.

You know, this is what we do. There's a swagger to that. But when you're on one need with the music business, you start to treat like shit. You know what that feels like? or you go on the radio station, they treat you like a has-been or whatever. That first time that you went through, how did you navigate that? Like, what was it, would you lean on your relationship with Paul? Like, what kind of held you through it?

One of the honest answers is that by that time, there was a lot of money. So your perspective of, uh-oh, the world is going to collapse, is different when you've got a big wad of cash in your life. and so there's a sense that if the worst happened, you'll be okay. Right. Oh, that genes. So for you as long as I've got material solidity, aesthetics or perception or even my own insecurity, if you even have insecurity, I don't know you to be insecure. Of course I have insecurities. I know at one point I'm going to die. I don't like that. I object.

So when you were doing things like movies, was that a way to sort of balance or were you... I thought I was impervious that I could do anything, and it was the same blind delusion that made me think I could get in a band, and we could be one of the biggest bands ever, and I can act, and I can do movies, and it seemed anything I tried. I had my own record company and managed Liza Minnelli and, quote, discovered Van Halen. Anything I wanted to do, it seemed like I couldn't fail,

because I had that, well, I had the loose screw anyway, I'm sure, and you do too and a lot of people to get up on stage because you've got to be out of your minds to pick this thing because you're putting all your eggs in a basket, right? So once you have a cushion of money, it's certainly better. Somebody once said, money's not going to make you happy. So you're going to be a, if you're a miserable son of a bitch, it's still so much better to be a rich, miserable son of a bitch.

Were you a rich, miserable son of a bitch at that point? I was certainly rich, I continue to be. Sure, there are plenty of people who... I guess what I'm trying to say is, was there a deeper moment of doubt? Yes. Okay, so... And the fans give you that doubt, that pause that says, you suck, you know, when you start reading actual letters,

because in those days they were real letters. and hate mail and stuff from the fans that loved you i used to love you i've stopped doing that every band's going to go through that and you just have you either survive or not so peter left we got a new drummer eric car who's just fantastic and try to um come back from unmasked and you know the disco stuff and so we put out a heavier record and you did creatures of the night great record yep very nice of you great single and uh love it loud was a i love it loud was a great big video, great, great songs. So all that stuff was going on.

And it did not do well in America. Music was changing, but at the very same time, we played Baraka now for 200,000 people in Rio, and 135,000 people in Belhoi... Was Vinnie Vincent in the band? Vinnie Vincent was in the band. So half... The onk. Yeah, the onk.

Yes. Half the band was gone. And, you know, we just expect people just accept the new guys. So are you and Paul looking at each other saying, okay, we're headed the right direction, got to keep going? We liked the record. We're kind of headed in the right direction, but it's not working in America

because at the same time, you've got all these different punk and new romance and Adam and the Ants and everything else happening. You've got a younger fan base that are more active, so we don't know what to do. So Paul comes up with the idea of maybe it's time to take the makeup off. and I'm going, I'm not sure about that. We have a, quote, legacy, whatever.

You know, we lasted longer than the Beatles. Beatles lasted seven years. Right. And put out all this astonishing stuff. And never, as far as I'm concerned, never decayed. Just kept moving, evolving. But, of course, nobody is the Beatles. And so, you know, I gave in.

I said, okay, let's see what happens. And this lick-it-up record happened, which was okay. But you had some big hits off that? Yes, lick it up and a few other things. I think you guys, obviously, I don't know all the inner dynamics of your writing together, but you're great writers because, to me, great writers are able to adapt to the times. Most of the KISS fans focus on the early catalog, but your 80s catalog is held up very well because you guys are great writers.

Do you feel that, too? I could argue the ACDC or Metallica idea, which is, is you stay true to the DNA. Well, it's an argument that works well for them. And Iron Maiden, there are some very, very big... Can I make a counterargument as a Kiss fan? I think what make you guys so fascinating is the good and the not as good. And I'm not saying, I want to go listen to your worst song.

I'm saying is your journey is what makes the band so fascinating. Well, we didn't have a choice because we gave. we gave in. There were those first records that had, you know, sort of Chuck Berry crossed with this and that, little Beatles, little Motown, little this, little that. Whatever that thing was, the identity, the fingerprint was diluted as members within the band started to veer from the band. There are other bands that have stayed true to who they are, and that have survived,

become bigger. And by the way, I don't do that. I go, that's their journey. This is ours. Personally, I find it a bit boring. Your version or reality trumps mine nine times out of ten. But the thing that I think

makes kiss interesting and part of the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I think your guys are going to win in a way that you've never won before over time. Because you're able to, it's so hard to say in one sort of sentence, so maybe I'll make the case. But what I'm trying to say is there's a lot more value

in kiss than even people who have a value way to kiss to this point understand kiss is true value that's kind of what I'm after did I make any sense there sure but I prefer to make dollars oh that's another one the only thing I care about is a brand new five-year-old who experiences kiss or the imagery even if it's not the music just somehow gets seduced and beguiled by that thing my son is eight years old and when he was five I showed him a video of you guys. And I said, that's kiss. That's the magic for me. And when that feeling comes, even if it's just from the visual

side, and then maybe like some of the tunes, because there are fans who kind of go, oh, I like that, who's that, then they discover the visuals. But they dress up like us in Halloween. It's a deeper kind of thing. But I'm a snobby musician, and I went make a snobby musical argument about you. Okay. Well, that's why everybody's got their own journey.

Right, but I'm sitting here with one of the architects. So, you know, I'm not arguing with a snobbery? No, no, no, no, no, no. One of the architects of the thing I want to argue about. Oh, okay, yeah. Which is kiss. You know, the kiss the franchise. Well, look, a painter paints a painting, a writer writes a book,

or Disney puts out a new cartoon character, and the buyer of the audience makes of it what they will. You're using your words. The snobs like it for snobby reasons. The other ones like it because it's sugar and it takes. Who cares what it is? What is that impressionistic painting about?

Well, I see this and I see that. It's all valid. Okay, let me put it in Gene Simmons terms. I believe Kiss will endure because Kisses value is greater than the material value that you're ascribing. and you're not wrong, but I think my argument will bear out over time. That's my point. I could be totally wrong.

Fine, and I'm also fine with my hand to God. If nothing ever happens again in my life, that's a win, that kiss doesn't continue and stop now, I'm the luckiest bastard, whoever worked upright. You are pretty lucky, gosh. century of amazing times and memories and, you know, all... Happily married. Fantastic. Just the best. Shannon, two great kids, who are both immensely successful. Sophie's got video billboards across the world because she's one of the big Spotify writers.

She writes with everybody and produces, manages, does that, and Nick's music is in TV shows, prodigal, and Ozark and all that. And do they ask dad for opinions? Nope. They just totally different. And somehow they found their niche. And Shannon is, I have to say, the moral heartbeat of it. Because if it were not for her, I tend to be an extreme person, not with chemicals and

alcohol and stuff, but with pleasures. cake, the chicks, all that just one is, you know, it's like the potato chip stuff. One is never enough. I know you've heard this, so I don't, I'm not in any way trying to offend you. But I hear it, you know, like, kiss fans are kiss fans, right? They love the band. Well, there's all kinds. Okay, right, absolutely.

But if you're a kiss fan, you're a kiss fan. And you can argue about why you're a kiss fan, but kiss fans tend to be kiss fans. You know what I mean? They love the band, warts and all. coming and going and all of it. People who don't like kiss, like, ugh, right? You've heard all those things through the years. Sure. Okay.

My personal opinion is, and I've had to think about it through the years, because I didn't share the opinion, but, you know, when you hear it from enough people, you start to think, well, maybe there's some validity there. You know, whether it's people didn't like Peter's drumming or, you know, they didn't like the 80s version of the band, the lick it up version and stuff like that. You know what I mean? There's that kind of vibe on that. That's fair.

I think you guys are grossly underrated as a musical outfit. Okay. But how do you feel about that? Not an issue for me in any way, shape, or form. Do you think you guys, musically, we're just talking music shop, two musicians. Do you think you guys were a great musical band? Let's take the original lineup, start to start there. Do you think you guys were a great musical band?

It was a good band. There was certainly, there was a certain. I'm going to argue with you. You guys were a great band. Well, that's the... And I'll tell you why, if you want to hear it. I don't want to bore you. But I'm saying...

Okay. But I'm saying, you guys were a great fucking band. And I, you know how I know? Because I heard it enough that I went back through and I thought, okay, of course I know the records. But I went back through and I listened to every song you guys released between whatever and it got weird. Every, like every... I don't care. The deep cuts, the B-side, whatever.

I listen to all of it. And I walked away and thought, they're better than I think they are. And I already think they're really good. They're very kind. but I do want to, I'm clear about one thing, and that is the experience of something doesn't have to be fair, which is to say it's not, it's usually or often, not just about music or musicianship or even image.

There is a gathering of the tribes. It's cultural in today's terms. But we're talking music now, straight music snob. But it's bigger because music. I got you. Music is a movement. So in today's terms, either you're a Swifty or you're not. And if you don't get it, you just don't, it's not for your ears.

Okay, but like you and I could sit and talk for an hour easy about the Beatles' musicality, not the Beatles' cultural relevance, not Yoko, just the Beatles as a band. Yes. I'm talking about Kiss as a band. Yes. If you ever wrote a song in your life, your jaw would drop at the symbol. simplicity yet complexity of those harmonies and the songwriting, it just defies. But I'm here to talk about you.

The music, yeah. I don't know, we couldn't shine anybody's shoes. I think you're wrong. Okay, well that's fine. A guy throws, you know, there are guys that throw paint on a canvas and go, okay, give me a few million dollars and they're happy. And somebody says, oh, that's genius. It's all valid because anybody's perspective. But your perspective is what really matters to me, right?

So I'm about to answer it as best I can, which is I thought it was a decent, continuing to be a good band, meat and potatoes. Okay, but you take your average rock band, just your average good rock band, and you've seen enough of them through the years, okay? You take a song like Ladies Room, right? Like, wasn't a big hit, right?

It's not necessarily the song you're gonna be brand for. Those bands wish they could write that fucking song. Okay. Was that your song, or was that Paul? It's a fucking great song. That's what I'm saying. That's where you won me over. The little subtlety was, I'll meet, meet you in the ladies' rooms,

was M-E-E-T, meet you, M-E-A-T as a sexual verb. I'll meet, meet you. This comes from your teaching background, the multiple applications of the word meat. Language is delicious. Yes. But that's my point. When I did the deep dive and I'm being a f-fing snob here. I'm reminded of an anti-snob lyric I had.

I think it was Burn, Bush, Burner, one of those awful songs. I've got nasty habits. It's a fine line. So many girls and so little time. When love rears its head, I want to get on your case. I want to put my log in your fireplace. See, now that's poetry where I come from. And the fans hated it.

You guys figured out very early on, whether it was intuitive, right, that you could use the media to put a log in the kiss fireplace and make you guys bigger, right? You figured that out. I remember watching you on whatever. Mike Douglas. And I thought, wow, I don't understand this because I was used to everybody pretending. Of course, now I know it was all fake, and you knew it was fake. You figured out it was fake. Life is fake.

Once you leave your house, before you leave, you leave. look at the mirror because we all wear costumes and Shakespeare said it the whole world's a stage. I thought we didn't care about Shakespeare. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying it's one of the journey. At what point did you figure out I'm going to use this system, flip it on its head? Because I remember very distinctly, okay, great.

I don't know if I was 10, 12, and you told the truth in a way that nobody in the media told the truth at that point. you know girls understood this thing much more than guys as a girl who wants to go out to a club and one of her friends calls her and says so the club's happening come on down so the first thing the girl wants wants to know so what are all the other girls wearing they go oh all the girls are wearing short black outfits well if she's smart she's going to put on a red short outfit because the idea is you've got a minimal amount of time to make an impact. Right. And that's the only thing we tried to be the band we never saw on stage, not the best band or the worst band, but just to be, just immediately...

But you were 50 years ahead of your time in understanding how to exploit the media by its own bias. That's true. Was that you that figured that out, or did you and Paul figure it out, or was it in the bands? Paul and I were cognizant of the fact that we were anglophiles. liked, because we had a record before that and a band called Wicked Lester. I've heard it. There are lots of flutes if I

remember. Oh, it's just, you know, Pablam. There's a Wicked Lester version of a Kiss classic, but it's like a... Oh, yeah, it's a song called she, which has flute in it. Yeah, because when you have no idea where you're going. I won't make an argument for Wicked Lester's enduring musical legacy. And we bought that record from Epic, it was going to be on Epic,

we bought it back because we didn't want it released. and then said, you know what, this is wrong. We've got to get rid of the guys. They can't play. They don't get rid of the flautist. Yeah, yes, who's a music teacher. Are you still in touch with the flautist? He's passed on, unfortunately.

Most of the guys, unfortunately, passed on. And then there was a sense of what do we love? What do we love? We love Zeppelin. We love the Beatles. We love English music. Well, why aren't we writing English-American? and songs and that's what it's based on so paul liked you know uh let's see all right now i think was

just coming out there so he's there's a humble pie in early kiss right yes steve marriott right did you see them you ever see them live sure so good right oh and i'll never forget the swagger i ran into marriott later on in life and i hadn't seen him in a while and everything and he was in a recording studio and I happened to be coming in as he was going out just a tiny miniature like a hobbit like a small bundle of energy you know the sort of cockney although I'm sure he wasn't actually I don't know and Steve I don't all right where have you been and he said up your mother's bum and I thought I just meant to say say, I haven't seen you in a while.

And he may have thought I said, your career may have been on hold. I haven't seen it. Yeah. And it was just so, it was that quick thing. And he was off. And I went, yeah, that's real. Because that guy, when he hit that stage, have you ever heard, people don't know this? Robert Plant, one of the great voices forever, have you ever heard where Plant got all his stuff from?

Yeah, there's the, there's the small faces recording it. It's married. He's literally doing Steve Merritt. He's ripping off every... Ripping off the melody, the lyric, the whole thing. Robert Plant worshipped Marriott. And Marriott was later... Good person to worship.

Oh, but... And his tonality... You know, that's... To even be able to do it. To do it. But when I heard that stuff, having heard a whole lot of love 500 times, I was like, wait, there's a blueprint for this? Had no idea.

The genius of Zeppelin is... Are those... riffs. Jimmy Page came up with more riffs than any other guitar player I've ever heard, and so simple. It's the E, the D, and the B. So whether you're going to do-da-da-bump or all the variations are those three notes in that, you know, blues scale. I'm sure you must have shot at some point with Charlotte, Scarlet Page, Jimmy's daughter. Do you ever shoot with her? Yes, she was with Ross Halfen all the time.

our good friend Ross. And of course she got sick and tired. Tell me about dad. She goes, okay. But finally became friendly with Jimmy. And I will tell you, one of the highlights of my life being an anglophile is we were playing Wembley. And it was kind of a big deal. And everybody came down.

And Jimmy came down to check the band out. This was 20 years ago or so. And that night we played well. And Jimmy came up to me afterwards. and he actually said to my face, and I'm still sweating and, you know, still with the stage, my heart's pumping, and I see Jimmy, and I'm looking down, he said, he actually said you could give John Entwistle a run for his money, and I, of course it's not true, but I just about passed out. That's a nice compliment. Oh, my goodness, it meant the world to me. Okay, I'm still on my musical snob tip, so bear with me. By the way, why is that, like, whatever it is you like is what you like.

Why call it snobbery? For whatever reason you like something is its own definitive reason. Because, okay, you've been honest with me, I'd be honest with you. Like I said, I had the poster on the wall. so I've been listening to Kiss since since 1976 and I still listen to you guys regularly you're one of those bands I still

like if I'm having a bad day I'll put on one of your records because you guys just put me in a good mood you're always there for me as a band I can lean on to get me like in the right headspace right

that's a musical appreciation note but my point is over time I got sick of hearing the musical community not not bands because bands know how important you guys are as a musical band, whether it was Pantara or Dave Grohl.

Like, everybody knows Kiss is a fucking great band that are musicians. But you kind of get this rap from, like, fan community, like, you know, whether they like Prague or whatever they like. Like Kiss, Kiss kind of gets kind of, yeah, they're okay. But why is that important? Why is that important? It's important to me. Why?

You like what you like. No, let me finish. It's important to me because I don't like the world. of gatekeepers that tell average fans, just like I was in a basement in Chicago, what is important? It's the same reason they kept you out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame all those years, because those fiend snobs would not say this is a great band. This is an influential band.

This is an important band, culturally, aesthetically, musically. On the other hand... I'm not trying to fight your fight for you, but what I'm saying is... No, it's okay. That is true, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. On the other hand, I considered buying it. See, it helps not to be born in America. I really believe that. When you're an immigrant legal, because there's a difference,

and America allows you to climb the ladder of success and everything. The one thing that you're astonished by is the shitload of money and opulence you're allowed to have. It's just mind-numbing. For me, if that's the only reason, if the only thing I get out of it is that it made me, by some standards, very rich, fine. Okay. A different take on my argument. You made all that money because you're in a great band. Okay.

But I would be, by the way, I think I would be maybe not just as happy, but certainly happy if I put out Gungham style and those two billion people paid for every one of those copies. I wouldn't be sad. Kisses. Okay, this is a musical take. By the way, what I'm saying doesn't negate your validation of self. No, no.

No, I love that you, as I sit here and talk to you, I realize that so much of Kiss's success and its endurance in success is exactly because of your mindset. If you had my mindset, it wouldn't have worked. Does it make sense? If you weren't already

farty weirdo like me, it probably wouldn't have worked. But I'm here, not for kiss. That's what I'm saying. But now that it's all over, not that it's over over, but now that it's over this way, we can sit here and reminisce, right? And I can sit here and make the argument to one of the

architects who's been writing in my head on some level since 1976, right? It's a rare opportunity. 73. Well, I wasn't there. the beginning. Sorry, I missed the first couple of records. Not my fault. My point being is, I can make the argument to you as a fellow musician in a way that I probably couldn't make if we were at a bar or sitting, even having dinner. This is a unique opportunity to kind of make a case, not only to you,

but obviously anybody watching, that I think you're a great band. I get sick of hearing this kind of dismissive vibe. Thank you. But not that you need my defense. I'm okay. But I, But I like the, let's call it, the intellectual sort of riff on it. That's all. I appreciate that. But ultimately, invariably, and other big words like gymnasium, living well is the best revenge. It's the reward. You can go to the fall guy, which is this big new movie with Ryan Gosling, I think it is.

And the opening thing is I was made for loving you. Throughout the movie, they keep playing that too. You don't even, it's just part of the, the, the, uh, the gestalt, the part of... Or zeitgeister, yeah, right. Zeitgeist. It's become part of culture. And we just got a pilot thing

that I just said okay to. There's a new Disney pilot where there's a guy who's a major insane fan who's got a large standee of me you know, at makeup and stuff, wherever he goes, he likes to take it with him, that's part of the storyline. Do you mind that?

No, sure, you know, go ahead. Okay, let me make a slightly different argument. If from the first get-out, you were in New York, obviously New York critics. I love that Midwesternism, that from the first get-out, that's great. Head East was big in Chicago. That's all you need to do about. I remember on A&M Records.

Right. If you guys had been loved by the critics from the first, moment you set foot on a stage. If all you'd ever heard, and you know those bands, there's those bands out there. It's like they can literally get on a fucking plate and some critic will talk about how holy the whole thing was. But you didn't get that. But it doesn't matter. Just follow my intellectual rambles. Please. Just indulge me. What I'm trying to say is part of what makes you great is you guys charted a very American path of like, we're just going to do what we do, we're going to tell you what we're doing, we're going to be totally transparent about it. You're still

being transparent about it, right? But somehow in all that, makeup on, makeup off, makeup back on, somehow you guys made a lot of great music because you're great songwriters. You were at the right time, at the right place,

at different times where you created classic music. That's a very important phrase. Right thing, right time, right place. Because if you wrote 1979 in the 1800s, nobody would care. Same song, same vibe, same everything, and they'd hear it, they wouldn't even understand what to do with it. So I'm just making my own little intellectual argument here,

which is that your value is greater as a musical unit than you get credit for generally, and I believe that will be part of the reason that people will listen to you 50 years from now. Not that you were ahead of your curve and all that stuff. Because now there's 8,000 bands with face paint and, you know what I'm saying? Quite honestly, I don't know. I don't even think about it.

I get that feeling, yes. I mean, I walk around. Did you pay for that? You know, that's very good. By the way, my wife, you told me about this. It's a good piece of advice. Get a piece of copper, regular copper, not diluted, but full 100% copper, and glue it on to your cell phone, which you hold more than anything else.

And it kills National Institute of Health. it immediately on contact kills all germs on your hand, including COVID. Why is there not a kiss logo on that copper? All right. Enough of my indulgence. Staying with music, though. Music only. Not even personalities, because I...

How come you don't talk about yourself and your writing and your music and all that? Don't you have an inferred fiduciary duty to yourself? I'm in a band called The Smashing Pumpkin Still. we're about to play 17,000 people in the O2 Arena here in a couple days. So I know you know what that feels like. Okay, strictly musically. I remember reading an interview where you were talking about the way Peter played drums. Peter's off-criticized as a drummer.

Okay. Like, it drives me crazy because it's like when people criticize Ringo. Oh, you can't. You can't. Those are musical parts. Those are not drums. Peter's kind of weird Motown. He's a throwback to when drummers had swing.

So he was never a rock drummer. Right, but that's what makes the music so good. That certainly helped that sound, yes. If you had, if the kick was too heavy, you know, Bonham later, and Bonham got his thing from Carmine, the American drummer. And even maybe in the Jethro Toll drummer, if you ever went down that rabbit hole. Yes.

Look, everybody listens to, everybody else and you like this, you like take a piece and your DNA then becomes your own, but it's a pastiche. How did you, but again, all personality stuff aside, how did you feel about Peter's drumming at that time? Because you're the bass player. Did you like playing with him? Did you like the swing?

We loved the feeling of it. It made the music seamless. But I have to tell you that Peter, we were all untrained musicians. Peter played by feel and didn't play by verse bridge chorus ideas and didn't quite understand that because he was not a songwriter. He didn't play a musical instrument. Drums are percussive, not musical. So literally you can hear strutter or one of those songs and the pattern on the drums is different in the bridge. and then it'll go to a verse pattern in the verse pattern he had in the middle of the chorus bat or in the riffed out and switch to a chorus pattern.

And there's some strange thing that worked at it, but not logically. I mean, when Keith Moon, he's not Keith Moon. He couldn't touch Keith Moon. But when Keith Moon played with the Who, you can't quite figure out what the patterns are. Well, look at Kenny Jones, who's a great drummer. Yes. Playing with the Who. It just was a weird.

It's not the same. Kenny was more a school musician. But a great drummer. Yeah, a great drummer, but stayed. It brought the energy down, this wild thing. So I'll never forget, however, good, bad or otherwise, Paul's out there putting on his southern... All right, y'all, we're going to do a song now. It's called strutter, and it's good.

You know, he's talking about a girl walking down the street, you know, and he's doing that thing, and I'm hearing, p, p, pst, pst, and I turn around because I'm a little bit in the dark, Paul's got the spotlight, and Peter wants to say, and my hand to God,

Peter's going, which one's that one? And go, you know, the brute and brough and brough, and brough, and brough. Oh, and this is after we rehearsed it for a hundred times. He was a feel guy.

You know, you see the template and you're about to play a song. You know where the bridge and the chorus are going to be, you know, eight bars of this, then you do the riff, you know where you're going to go. Peter was just along for the ride.

Yeah, I played with the musician once, a very well-known musician. He said, oh, I never play the same thing twice. Yeah. It was to play Jimmy Chamberlain's drum parts, and Jimmy plays the same thing every night. I know. But it doesn't sound like he does. Or at least I'm aware of it.

Right, and he plays these crazy parts. So I was like, well, how do you do that? How do you not? Like, basically it was like I make it. up as I go along, right? So I understand that. Field drummers. Jazz drummers are closer to that. Yeah, no, that's, that's, and you know, he always positioned himself as, you know, he had that weird story where he would tell about, was it Gene Krupa and sitting with Gene Krupa? Do you ever read that story from Peter? Well, I don't know how true it is. I'm glad you said, though, that in the old days,

those drummers would play the top of the kit and something called dropping the bomb would be when the kick would have. They were hardly used the kick. Yeah, it was all top stuff. And there are lots of stories Peters told about Gene Krupa, and they're very entertaining. Okay. Ace, when I did my deep dive where I had this revelation about that you guys were a lot better than I thought you were, and I already thought you were great. Ace's playing came at me differently, maybe because I was paying so much more attention. How did you feel about Ace's play?

Oh, he immediately tore open the doors of what could be, what should be, because we were in a rat-infested loft, maybe twice as big as this room with egg crates that we stuck on the wall that still had cracked some cracked eggs. And of course, at night, the huge dinosaur cockroaches would come out. Oh, my God. Oh, it was horrible. There were no windows and everything. But we didn't care.

We were doing this thing. And, wow, we're hearing that sound. And we auditioned players and this guy comes in who plugs in. We had double stacks, Marshall Major, 200 watts. We had money. That's the Richie Blackmore Ant, by the way. That's right. Very underrated guitar player.

Oh, incredible. Ace plugs in and starts playing while we're talking. to another guy and I walked up to him and said buddy you better sit down before I knock you out you what are you doing we're talking he was oblivious that there meeting going on that he had to sit there civilly and wait for his turn and when he got up and okay we're get listen pal we're gonna do a song called Deuce here's the riff you know a major da da da da we'll do you know two verses bridge and when the rift starts I'll point to you you've heard it enough and you do a solo based on the

riftice okay and and he talked like that and we're going well it's a weird guy's got one orange sneaker one red sneaker just you know pigeon-toed and all the oh boy this guy is going to be and then he dug in and his head you know like he's on stage just that rubbery thing and Paul and I looked at each other wow And you don't know what you're looking for, but you certainly know when you hear it and see it. And it immediately said this weird guy, rubbery thing on drums that we couldn't get to focus on. That's the bridge feel you're playing in the chorus. And this other guy was, you know, and it just kind of happened.

You can't, we didn't have a manager. We didn't have a, there was no, there was no, there was no. Kershner saying here's the monkeys and yeah to me Ace's playing is like it's almost futuristic somehow well I'll tell you a big bit of info is Ace was so serious about his guitar playing the solos is he would go home and learn and he would work out the guitar solos so that when he would play live or in the studio they were parts just like badda da da da da da da da da da da you play the same thing yeah he would but played note for note with the right vibrato and everything,

that's when he was committed to it. And that's one of the things live fans kept pointing to. Wow, it sounds just like, you bet it is, because he cared enough to learn his own solo. What a cool guitar player. His influences spoke loudly, Paige and Beck and, you know, all the time. But he's also influenced so many other people in a very unique way. It's true.

Dimebag and everybody. And Kirk from Metallica, everybody, lots of guys went, you know, Ace was the first guy. But it also, again, is at a certain age, you start to listen to certain music, and that influences. So do you remember this band Static X? Sure. Did you ever know Wayne, the singer? Do you remember him? No.

So when we were in an indie band in the 80s in Chicago, Wayne had a band called Deep Blue Dream, which I was in briefly. He tried to talk me out of the pumpkins, say, he was a very good singer. They were kind of like the cult at that point. You remember like rock cult, you know, Rick Rubin's version of the cult? Wayne was like, look, I'll be the lead singer, you'll be the lead guitar player. We're going to be huge. Try to talk me out of the band. I was like, now I'm going to stick with my band.

But Wayne had a car, like an old car, and he had painted the Kiss logo on the hood of the car. So anywhere you would go in Chicago, you'd be driving. Oh, there's Wayne's car because he'd make the Kiss logo. and one of my favorite stories about Wayne was he was in the studio recording a song and he was having trouble figure out the solo and somebody heard him mumbling to himself and they what was you saying he said I was wondering what Ace would do because he was such a kiss fan so in his mind Ace like if he could figure out

what Ace would do in the song that was the apotheosis of like a compliment it's the highest compliment and the Melvin's bus that Nirvana drove around and had the Kiss logo all over it. I mean, I know all those stories. I remember Mike McCready was telling me that when he first started Pearl Jam, when he first started guitars and everything,

that he'd listen to Ace and in particular, da-da-d-d-da-d-dud-dud-dil-da-dddle-da-dda-d-d-d-do-do-do was one of the first solos he learned from a song called She. I said, Mike, I don't know how to tell you this, but that's note for note. Note for note, guitar solo from the doors. Ace liked it so much, he just reproduced it.

He goes, no. I didn't know that. I learned something. All right. So my point is, it's always very appreciative when somebody says, you know, love your stuff or this stuff, everybody's got bits and pieces of stuff. Listen to Zeppelin songs, you'll hear lots of blues, very recognizable blues songs. But in the moment of the time, and I do want to talk about Paul, but in the moment of the time, did you feel that you had something magical or was like, this is just our band and we're going to go forward no matter. Now, we were aware that culturally, because kids of all ages, you get grown up.

But again, I'm sorry, I'm on my musical rant. Oh, the musical. But I'm saying, did you feel you had something, obviously that lineup produced a lot of music that people still listen to? Did you feel that at the time? The impact and the success and the culture was a much bigger, had a much bigger impact. There was not a lot of discussion of, you know, that's a decent song, and maybe we should get Rolling Stone a good, never cared about. But I'm asking you, that's what I'm saying. This is my indulgence with this interview.

So my sense of some of those tunes are pretty decent material. And I could point to a thousand bands that were much, much better, and maybe not as successful. I mean, Humble Pie opened for Grand Funk Railroad at Shea Stadium. Humble Pie could wipe the floor with Grand Funk. Are you kidding? Grand Funk's a pretty good band, though. I liked it, too, but you can't touch Marriott.

And even with Jerry Shirley. Peter Frampton in that band? Yeah. Well, I think when they opened, they may have had Jerry Shirley, yeah. But I get what you're saying. Yeah, so, and, you know, Jimmy Hendricks is opening for the monkeys. So the fact that the monkeys are headlining, does that make them a better band? I loved the monkeys for different reasons, but when you see Hendrix, it's another world. And he was booed off the stage.

Yeah, but part of my rap is I think we're seeing in the streaming era, we're seeing a democratization now. where what people actually listen to is creating the true dynamic of music culture, not a critics culture. For young people, yes. Okay, so that's my point is I would say to any young person watching, that if you hear on the street, ah, kiss they're okay. It's like that's the wrong take. Kiss is a great band for a variety of reasons,

and primarily among them for me is musical. Well, it's appreciated, but it seems to continue. I got a really good story. which we'll end on. But it wouldn't be fair if we don't touch on Paul. At what point did you realize that your bandmate, who you guys never left the band, the two of you, that you guys had something that was sort of unique?

From day one, he didn't like me when we met each other. Does he like you now? Sure. I think we both have this sort of like the brother that we never had. Yeah. That doesn't mean you agree. I mean, Canaan Abel didn't get along very well, but they were brothers. Like when you did the reality show, was it true that he was not happy about it?

He hated it. Yeah. And I offered him take over a year, call it the Paul Stanley Family Jewels. You know, I've got an eight season commitment, 167 episodes. Take over a year, do it. He hated it. He didn't agree with the, he wanted to be more English. Like, we just play guitar.

We don't do the other stuff. And I had a different point of view, I think movies and licensing. He was not as much of a fan of toys, games, licensing, and merchant. When it did help bring the band back to a certain degree. No question. Paul was there much more musically when I was asleep at the wheel. Paul's able to write any kind of music and sing almost anything. Much better vocalist, better looking guy and a better shape.

Talented guy. And driven, like you. Absolutely. and great family guy, no drugs, no booze. You can't find that in rock and roll, you know, in bands. But early on, at the very beginning, we recognized in each other, I'm going to do better with this guy than if I do it on my own. So when our first band, Wicked Lester, had our equipment stolen in Chinatown.

We had nothing. We turned to each other, and I went, well, you know, what are you going to do? And he's going to, well, what are you going to do? I said, well, I'm going to go upstate. And I know this guitar player, I'm going to put another group together. And he said, can I come with you? And so right away, we were hitchhiking on Route 17

to put another band together and eventually wound up in New York and put kiss together. I'll give you a quick story. We started poking fun of each other songs. I'm going, all you ever, Paul starts saying, all you ever write about is monster songs. songs and all like, I'm the God of Thunder and all like that. What? What did you say?

Oh, that's a good idea. I'm going to go home and write that thing. I'm the God of Thun. Yeah, that's what I'm going to write. He goes, oh, you like that, huh? So he went home right away and wrote God of Thunder before I had a chance. But before the conversation ended, and I said, and all you ever write about is stupid girl songs. I'm Christine, 16 and all that stuff, just like that.

And he said, what? What did you say? Oh, you like that? So I immediately went home and wrote Christine 60. When I told him, I made the mistake when we first put the band together. We were co-writing rock and roll, that kind of stuff. And I said to him, I'm going to go home and I'm going to write a song. I've got a great idea.

You've got brown sugar, you know, about this prostitute and everything. And about this black prostit. I'm going to write my own brown sugar called Black Diamond. How cool does that sign? He goes, yeah, that's cool. out on the streets for living and black diamond he goes that's cool he went home and wrote the song before

I had a chance to write my own black diamond I said what the and so when he showed the chords I go that's really good but you need this riff on top otherwise it's you know A minor you know he got just chords

chords and so we complimented each other on a lot of stuff so wherever I'd like to think he's knew and continues to know stuff I don't and vice versa. Yeah, I have that with Jimmy Chamberlain, the Pumpkin Strummer. It's like... You don't have to say the Pumpkin Strummer to me.

Okay, but it's that weird thing where it's like, why are we together in this life? But when we play, it makes all the sense in the world. Either that person makes your stuff better. Well, duh, that guy. Or not. That guy is unbelievable. Okay. And I would argue the same thing about Ringo.

Pete Best may have been the original drummer. Anybody who has an unkind word. to say about Ringo and the Beatles. It's insane. I'm there and I have Ringo. How lucky am I have Ringo when I have my birthday who sent me a video says, all right Gene, happy birthday. I'm going peace and love, Jean. Okay, this is our big finish. You may remember this, probably not. Reunion show, Tiger Stadium, 1996, right? Is that accurate? You don't remember. You were there, it was sold out. 95. Okay.

Doc McGee was your manager. Yeah. Right? Allison Chains was opening. Sad story. It was going to be Stone Temple Pilots and Weiland and I had a discussion and I said, this is your chance. It's going to be a lot of media. Things sold out in 40 minutes.

You guys open up and, but I want you to be straight. You got to promise me, Gene, I promise, you know, like all addicts, I promise. Then he died. And then I saw Lane backstage. we got Allison Chains because we love the band. And before he went up on stage, and Lane, this is your chance. I want you to be straight and all that stuff.

And shortly thereafter, he died. Lane's a tough one because obviously Scott, too. But I remember watching from the side of the stage, they kind of had played for a couple years because of Lane's drug issues. Lane was super skinny. He's wearing this almost like this black spider kind of. But his voice,

that voice that would come out of that body. Nobody sounded like that. Unbelievable. Anyway, here's my story. And so why don't you recognize that magic that affects everybody in yourself to keep yourself alive? What is that?

That goes with Cobain and other people. Well, that's the effect. When I have you back some other time, we should talk about that. That would be a great subject. I wrote a book called 27. That's about the 27. I didn't know that.

Mind blowing all these. super talented and lucky people who never realized the amazing impact they had just to keep themselves alive. Yeah, it hurts my heart for my generation when I think of all the people that would still be here making music. I know. Or just keeping their families happy. How about just being alive? Okay, my story. So, I'm a big rock star, and I'm seeing Kiss at the big reunion show, Tiger Stadium, sold out in 40 minutes, according to Gene.

And, of course, I want to know where I'm going to watch the show from. So I talk to somebody and they say, no stage access, none. It's true. No stage access. I say, well, well, you can go out to front of house and watch the show. I said, I'm not going through that fucking crowd. Me? Like, me 95, 96 me?

Like, right? No way. That crowd's going to kill me. No way. But go ahead. Where can I watch from? Well, you maybe could stand in front of it. of the front of the stage. Well, I'm going to be like this all night. I don't know. I want to watch it

like that. So I'm like, I'm literally, you guys are about to go on. It's like maybe 10 minutes to showtime. And I'm literally standing by myself and I could see the ramp up to the side of the stage, your side. And Doc McGee comes up and goes, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm just trying to figure out where I'm going to watch this show from. He goes, come with me. He walks me up on the side of the stage where your base tech is. He says, stand here. Okay? There's nobody on the fucking stage, except you guys, your techs, and me.

Okay? Now, I know it must have come from the band. Nobody on the stage, at least that's what I guessed. So you do your bit with the blood and the fire and the da-da-da, and you're coming over to take your break. You've got a towel. You're wiping yourself down. And, you know, when you're in full gimmick,

as we would say in wrestling, yeah, you're a little wound up, right? And you're imposing, you've got the boots on, you're a big guy already, and here you come. And I'm standing there, and I'm thinking, is he going to see me get pissed off? Now, we had met, of course, many times, but I'm somewhere I'm not supposed to be. And what I'm going to do, tell you in the middle of the show, well, Doc said it was okay. So you're wiping yourself down, and I see you go, I'm thinking, oh, here it comes, he's going to get mad, and you go, Billy? And you wave me over, and you said, are you enjoying the show?

And I said, it's amazing. He said, great, have a good time. So I have all the kids' fans in the fucking goddamn world got to be on stage with you guys during that night. What a great fucking night. Because you're a great fucking band, and I'm proud to know you. Well, you're very nice.

But for me, the most important thing is, hopefully they liked it because your bosses and my bosses buy tickets, and it's all for them. And without them, we'd be asking the next person in line, Would you like some fries with that? To be honest, I don't know how many people were there, 60,000 people.

I didn't give a shit about any of them. All I know is, I'm being straight up with you. Okay? God bless Kiss World. God bless the band, everything. All I know is if you could have told me that the kid looking at that poster at 10 years old on the back of the wall. Oh, I understand.

I would be standing watching you guys on stage as an invited guest. I understand. And have you come over and welcome me. You know who I am, right? There's that little kid in all of us. There's a great fucking moment. So thank you for that. How about five bucks?

No, you don't get it for me.