The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Howie Mandel | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Billy Corgan welcomes Howie Mandel for a revealing conversation that looks beyond the spotlight. Howie candidly discusses living with ADHD, OCD, and germophobia—often mistaken for comedic quirks—and explains why stand-up remains his most honest outlet, despite its nerve-wracking edge. They explore how childhood experiences drove Howie’s need for control, prompting him to build his own studio and work with family. He admits medication helps him function but sometimes numbs his emotions, and while hosting “Deal or No Deal” revived his career, it also overshadowed his identity as a comedian. Ultimately, he emphasizes that comedy and tragedy share the same roots, and that true fulfillment comes from embracing the present moment.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Most comedians say if I could just make one person laugh, I'm doing my job. That is so true. And that one person needs to be you. It really needs to be you. There was this comic book shop. And every Friday night, I'd see. There they are. And they're Doctor Who scarves.

Yes. It's kind of a... Right? Yes. You're very funny. You are. Well, as Bill's half brother, I got half. Welcome.

Thanks for having me, buddy. Thank you. I've been on your show. now you're on my show. I want to start with, let's call it the elephants in the room. Okay? You don't have to agree. I'm going to say the elephants, and then you tell me if you want to talk about the elephants in the room.

All right. Okay. ADHD, OCD, germophobia. They're all connected. Understood. So the reason I want to start there is not to do a comedy bit. It's because it's become part of your story. Do you feel that way?

I don't know if it's part of my story or just it's who I am. And it's interpreted, mostly misinterpreted by people who know me as my schick, my bit. To be fair, because you and I just got to know each other a little bit recent. Although we met years ago, I don't know if you remember that. We met somewhere like the Regis and Kathelicia or something. Probably, yes. You were very nice. It was nice to meet you then.

I'm still nice. But I'm still tremendously, uh, um, um, um, conflicted,

you know, there's always a conflict going on. Always. I never feel, you know, uh, that's my, that's my resting state is in turmoil.

Right. So that's kind of the point I was trying to make is, because I just got to know you a little bit recently, when I first heard about this, because I didn't know it, and I think I even tried to hug you or something, and you recoiled. But because you're such a comedian in the culture, I think people, they can't help but thinking it's kind of like an act, but I know it isn't. So that's kind of why I want to sort of start there. Well, I was talking to somebody yesterday, and I was close for a short amount of time with Louis Anderson. Do you know Louis Anderson? I knew him. Louis seemed to like me, and whenever I would see him, he'd want to sit and talk to me for 20 minutes. One of the sweetest, smartest, beautiful human beings, and I miss him dearly. But I'm using this as kind of an analogy of how I feel. Well, you know, I think Louis had a lot of turmoil, and I think we all do in our lives. And whether it's internal or external, it doesn't really differ.

But a big part of Louis' act was his weight and eating, you know, at least when he first started, before he started delving more into maybe family and relationships and things like that. And I remember sitting with him in a restaurant and somebody came over to the table and tried to be really funny and said something like, you're the fat guy or whatever.

And he got really upset, which he needed to be really upset and shunned the person that was approaching him. And that's when I realized, like even for me, you know, he could use his weight and his eating and whatever and, you know, humor, was a panacea. Humor was a tool. Humor is a coping skill. And that's not for others to play with. And by the same token, you know, I believe in art kind of works well when art when the artist is somewhat authentic, you know, I would imagine in music. I've paid dearly for my authenticity, yes.

But the truth is, you are who, you know, if we listen to your songs and we listen to your music, we should be able to somewhat interpret who you are or how you think. That's kind of what I'm poking around at. Right. Not to say it defines you, but it's become these things, these letters that people throw around that they don't always necessarily know what they mean. OCD and ADHD. Sure, but we get there to second.

But what I'm saying is I am who I am. I deal with what I deal with. And it was never considered humor when I was young, and we could talk about that earlier. You know, I act out and I kind of am impulsive and I can get silly and I can get what may be interpreted at times as funny. and but that's and you know what it works for me and it's bought me houses and it's bought me and it's also I learned and it wasn't my mission by being open about it it kind of uh because when I did open up

about it accidentally on the Howard Stern show we've talked about that before privately but and I talked about it in my book when I did open up about it I was terrified and thought that was the end of the world that people know that I have you think people would think of you My first thought, because when it happened, I was already married with children. I was in my mid-40s. I thought, because I'm going to be 70 this year, so that you're talking about 30 years ago, I thought, number one, my kids who are in school are going to be humiliated by the fact that now the world will know that their parent is a mental case, has mental health issues. So that was my first thought.

My second thought was that I won't be employable. I won't be able to do anything anymore. Do you think Hollywood would sort of... Yeah, if I tell somebody, you know, as a child of the 50s, if I'm really open about the fact that it's really hard for me to function, you know, any given project tour, anything is somebody's putting up millions of dollars. for a TV show or for whatever, why would you have somebody who is, you know, mentally unstable? A handful. A handful.

So that was unemployable. And then the overwashing fear was humiliation. So it's embarrassing to talk about yourself, you know, especially for somebody who wasn't, I'm not a social, I'm not social. Yes, I know this about you. So those are the three emotions that kind of overwhelmed me when I,

you know. I will say because I've been around your world a little bit in recent times, the people who know you best and the people who love you, they speak of those issues with affection. So there's something sweet about that

because it says that they love you and they understand that that navigating those things for you is sort of part of the deal, but it doesn't, in their eyes, it doesn't define you, which I think is telling. The truth of the matter is, and I feel not that I'm, and it is my soapbox, mental health, I think at any given point in any human being's life,

whether they have a diagnosable issue or not, you're going to have a hard time functioning and you're going to need outside help and a coping skill. And whether that's going to be, you know, the end of a relationship, a death, a diagnosis of a, you know, so I realize that, you know,

I cope with all those things as a human being living as long as I have lived, along with when nothing is going on, what's going on in my head. What would be a key coping skill for someone, that's overwhelmed by the environment, for example? For me, you know, for me, and I think for most people, it's, I constantly don't feel in control of whatever,

whether it's the environment, whether it's, you know, whatever's happening. I think that would surprise people because you've had, you're such an, even though you're Canadian, you're such an American success story. You know what I mean? But I'm not in control. Okay, but let me. finish my question, or my point, it's, it's, you're seen as somebody who's running his world. I mean,

you have, you have, you have a world. I mean, I literally refer to, because there's some connection here with how we shoot the production in your world. I literally call it Howie Mandel's world. I mean, you have a world. There's all these businesses and people and employees and, you know, I mean, you are a boss, whether you think of yourself as one. And even, and even being on your podcast, you know, your family's very much involved. I mean, it's a family. effort, I'm impressed by that. Thank you. I work really hard at nauseam to control my environment because I am so cognitively aware of how much control

we don't have in everything. And because that is so prevalent in my, you know, that's always poking at me, I try really hard to, and I think it's an issue to control. Like even, I mean, you're leaning into the fact that, you know, I have

some, the studios and the kids are working at my studio, but that's because I can't, I'm so afraid of working someplace else where somebody else turns on the life. So it's less a sign of power than more of a sign of, I need my environment within the

parameters of a certain level of control so I can feel comfortable so I can be my best. It's not power over anybody else, but it is a sign of power. I want the power to control what goes on in my world. I always want, that's why out of everything that I do in my career, the most provocative and the place that I always want to land is a stand-up. Because as a stand-up comedian, and that's where I start, let people go, you're the AGT guy or you're the deal or no deal guy. The stand-up is the only moment where I have power.

I control, and it's not power. I get it. I control. I know exactly what you mean. I really do. There's no cast. I don't have to wait for a line to do that. I don't have to throw to a commercial.

I don't have to hit a mark. I don't have to even curb my language or my subject matter. But it's really the one place where I can live in the moment, be totally distracted. and not be concerned or the concern, I'm using the word concern, but it's terrified of what I don't have control of what could come at me. Sure. I have a theory, and this is a theory I've arrived out later in life, but almost all human behavior, at least social behavior,

is defined by trauma, meaning something happens at somewhere in the early years, and then that sort of defines a patterning that persists with or without the input of what caused the trauma. Right. And I read a story about when you were a kid, there was something with sand fleas or something under your skin. Yes, I had a... I had a...

We didn't know, but I got bitten by a sandfly in Florida, the beach, and it laid its eggs under my skin. And I had these bumps, and when I would scratch them, then the bumps would move and crawl up. It's like... I don't know that that's traumatic. I'm not looking for the rosebud moment. But I feel that there isn't a living human being that hasn't been traumatized.

I would imagine birth is traumatic. There are beliefs. My daughter had a traumatic birth. She's six years old now. And if I didn't see it with my own eyes, do you know about osteopaths? Yes. So we took our daughter to a really well-known osteopath. and my wife's mother is very into infant development,

believes like, you know, children need to properly crawl in order to do certain things and, you know, create core strength and core trust values and, you know, it's all really deep infant developmental stuff. Anyway, so my mother-in-law said, because of the baby's birth trauma, you need to take her to an osteopath. So I went along, you know, I got this one-month-old baby,

and the gentleman later on the take, and he literally was touching her like this, just very gently, like nothing crazy. And all of a sudden she just, it was like the exorcism, all this stuff started coming out of her like this, if I hadn't seen it with my eyes, I wouldn't believe it. And the guy's like, yeah, that's all the birth trauma. And it's a good thing we're releasing it now because she would have carried this into her life. So whether people believe it or not, I don't really care. But I'm saying is, I believe in what you're saying, you know, that there's a sort of a,

everybody has imprinting from everything sure and everything is traumatic you know i oh somebody says somebody once i heard an analogy about life you know it's uh we we cannot choose our song we cannot choose you can write your own you know right but in the pantheum of the world sure if this is a song but you can choose how you're going to dance to it Okay. You know, so that's playing. Are you, are you sorbo? You know? Right.

But the truth is, it makes sense. What you're saying makes sense. Like, we are a human being with the, I would imagine being a parent now. And I reflect on myself, you know, I've said this so many times. But, you know, I thought I'd grow up and have kids and teach them about the world. But I grew up and had kids. And as a parent, they are teaching me about the world. because I'm seeing how humans, other human beings are reactionary

and how they react to the environment, how they react to whatever I say or whatever is done, how they're, you know, and you have to imagine there is a soul, you know, you think of an infant for me is kind of like a foreigner who is learning the language in that, but they're fully, I would imagine whoever they are and whoever we were was fully formed. I'm sure you saw it with your kids.

I mean, I look at my kids at one month old and I could see who they were going to be and that's who they turned out to be. It was hard-baked in them. It had nothing to do with the environment. Absolutely. So you can imagine if the soul is being squeezed through this canal and they can't breathe and they're being...

Sounds glorious to me, I don't know. It depends what part of you is kind of... The whole thing? Anyway, I won't get into that. But I'm just saying, birth has got to be traumatic. Everything is traumatic. The moment they learn, did the moment you say, good night,

and you close the light and close the door and walk out of the room, for a minute they cry and then they go to sleep. So without looking for the rosebud moment, do you, I guess what I'm looking for is, is there a connection in your mind between comedy and something to do with your, trauma in your life because we've talked about...

Absolutely. Okay, great. So give me that. Okay. Two things. If... You know, the two masks of comedy and tragedy are very close together. I think they're exactly the same.

They really are. It's just a different reaction. Shakespeare understood this at like some cellular level. And so does Howie. The thing... Howie Shakespeare? Oh, tis me. But it's again...

Sorry to interrupt you. It's no problem. No, it's a good conversation. You can... Something tragic can happen. You look at the mask of tragedy. You can cry. And that's your reaction to it.

And you cry and you wail and you scream. Something tragic could happen. and some people can laugh or need to laugh and the laughter is what holds you together so you don't break apart so you don't break and that's what I feel when I feel emotional pain when I feel fear when I feel out of control I need to I need to I laugh so is the is that I don't want to assume you know in in my mind Howie Mandel the comedian that I saw on television everywhere in the 80s like you were all over the place right I saw that person many times was that a character that was formed by trauma as a trauma a response or was that a character that you sort of authored?

You're using the term character, but it wasn't much different from me. And, you know, a lot of people thought... But you're very calm now, so that's why. Because in that moment... I only know you personally this guy. Because when somebody went, ladies and gentlemen, Howie Mandel, I was terrified, you know, and I learned and kind of emulated what I thought I saw from Richard Pryor was authenticity. If I feel like my internal voice was going,

okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, what? So it's internal dialogue in- Which I let out, yeah. You know, a lot of people- By the way, I feel like I got that. I understood that somehow. Because- It resonates with me because that's, I'm attaching it

to a 40-year-old memory, right? Right. Like here I'm in some suburbs somewhere watching you on television. Right. From Chicago where everybody in Hollywood looked a fantastic. you know what I mean. Right. And there you are. Terrified, going, okay, okay. But I saw that as your internal dialogue. So I did get that. So, but I think that that's why if I had to analyze, and I

don't have to, but if I had to analyze why I rose to some notoriety as opposed to in any given day you go to a comedy club and you could see somebody on amateur night and they don't, it's not because you can't say that's not funny. You can only say that doesn't make you laugh. You can't say that's not good. You can only say I don't relate to that. I think that as much as people thought it was funny, deep inside and without being able to articulate it, people understood that kind of that kind of hype. That's how I feel inside. I don't think you could articulate that as I did in Chicago. Go ahead. No, well, was it a concern that you weren't funny enough? Is that some on some of the Because it was...

I watched a clip of you last night where I don't know what show you were on and it's like prime that era and you ask the audience kind of a somewhat rhetorical thing. Like, you know what I'm saying? And the audience didn't respond. But what you were really looking for

was to connect with their own inner dialogue and you pushed them to you got a response. It was really... It was one of those things because I don't think I would have noticed if I was just watching a clip of you. Right. I was trying to watch you work, basically, right?

So I watched you kind of flip that internal dialogue into their internal dialogue and then create this other conversation. My... Like, it's like somebody saying, I know I'm a bit crazy and I know this is a bit silly, right? And they're kind of like, no, really? Like, can you see what's happening? But join me in this. Yes.

You see what I'm saying. Okay, that's my math. I've asked you. What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? I've asked you three times. You know, I used to do things like that.

But that was the truth. The first time that came out, it was like, just answer me, come with me, come with me. And it's kind of the same energy, which I've said on many other interviews. It's the same energy. I like that adrenaline and fear that I get from a thrill ride, even today. I'll go on a big roller coaster. Okay, but how does that jive with being out of control, being in control, authoring a character on stage and throwing yourself in the deep end of not knowing how the audience is going to respond?

It's multi-layers. Sure. I'll tell you what the layers are. The layer is when I'm on a roller coaster and I'm 30 stories in the air and going over that hump and being dropped down and I'm going, wow! You know, which if I was sitting there like I was just now, if I'm sitting there, you're out of your fucking mind, right, when you're going, when you're... Yes. But not on a roller coaster, nobody's looking at you. And I'm not worried about touching the dirty thing because I'm so in the moment.

Is it a form of freedom then? It's a form of distraction. It's a form of I'm in that. And when somebody says, ladies and gentlemen, Howie Mandel, and I'm standing there in front of, on television or wherever, it is so, I'm going to the exact opposite, which I think opposites are the same. It's so fucking humiliating.

It's so terrifying. What's humiliating? I don't understand. Because somebody goes, ladies and gentlemen, Howie Mandel, and then thousands of people that I don't know are going, this is okay,

okay. But I don't, you lose me on the humiliation part, so that's where... Because if I don't deliver whatever their expectation is, and I can't be in your mind, and I don't know what you expect, I don't really know your sensibility, then it's embarrassing,

right? Can I, can I, can I, because I'm interested in this conversation, so it's not to, I'm not being contrary, and I want to sort of give you. Go ahead. My response to the trauma of walking on stage, because I felt the exact same anxiety and the exact same sense of overwhelm. And at top of that, I had a musician father who judged that I would never be as good as he was.

So I had this double thing going on of like, dad over here and the audience over here. For some reason, my innate response was to, I don't care what you think. It was weird. It was nothing I would have guessed that I would have arrived at, but I eventually in the first couple years I wound around to, I really don't care what you think. So, to that end, and that's why I talk about layers, I do, what I do when I'm performing and on stage is what I think is funny. I'm really, really, really just entertaining myself. I really there's a joke there, you realize. Yeah, well, I say that, I always say that, you know, most comedians say, if I could just make one person laugh on doing my job, that is so true. And that

one person needs to be you. It really needs to be you. And who for you is the ultimate comedian and making themselves laugh. I used to cherish every waking moment I spent with Gilbert Godfrey. Right. And Gilbert was a guy who was incredibly underrated. And what I loved about him and what we shared together as friends was the fact that the response didn't, and still for me today, doesn't have to be, that's funny. The response has to be, it could be angering a group of people, making a lot of people feel awkward, making, just being able to paint those shades of humanity.

My favorite moments beyond being on stage, even more than being on stage, Gilbert and I, I used to hang with him in New York, and we used to go to the Carnegie Deli. Okay. And do you remember the Carnegie Deli? You could sit. You could sit, if you and me went to the Carnegie Deli, we couldn't get a table for two. We would just say two, and they'd sit us at a table with 38 tourists, right? And everybody's sitting there, and their corned beef sandwich comes,

and they'd take a picture of their corned beef sandwich. And it was kind of funny for us. We would go there, and you'd sit shoulder to shoulder with strangers, and I'd say to Gilbert, like, how you doing? And he'd begin. He'd go, I don't know if it's right in... In my sphinct there, there's like, I don't know if it's a lesion or something, but all night long, it's like a fluid.

It's like a fluid that just soaked the sheets. And people, and you can hear the tapping. They would drop their fork, and they dropped their, and it was just so funny. And I'd go, really? And he'd go, you know what? And I think it's an infection because when I tasted the fluid, it's like, it was, I think it's pus.

And that would just be the beginning. And then I'd gag and I threw up on myself, and then my ass is bleeding and there's pus and I'm throwing. And I'm just giving you the, it would go on until people would drop their plates and we would just see how long it would take to empty the table. And to me, that had the same joy as being on stage by myself. And the truth is that he, and there's a few other comedians that I know, that kind of we share that need.

to entertain ourselves and it doesn't have to be what you would think is a joke. Is it a pathological urge, do you think? I think it's an urge to control the narrative. You know, it's an urge to, this group of us who don't feel they're in control. And I kind of, the seed of that goes back to laugh, laugh, is contagious. I've told this story before, but my parents... I only want fresh stories, but go on.

Well, you couldn't edit this out. But my parents used to laugh all the time. My dad is very funny. My parents... There was a good sense of humor in my family, but I didn't get it because I was too young to understand what they would laugh at.

I'd hear them listening to the late-night talk shows, and I didn't understand the jokes. The first time I was... cognizant of what they were doing was I was maybe four years old and they were in the living room watching Alan Fund and Alan Fund. What was the name? Candid Camera. Thank you.

Candid camera. And he explained what he was going to do and it was like a surprise party. He set up a joke and the joke was, it doesn't sound that funny but he was, he pretended he was a boss. foe receptionist, the marks. Young ladies would come in and he'd say, you have to answer the phone, you can't miss a phone call, I need you, I'm going to go out.

And then like Lucy, they would overwhelm them. They'd overwhelm them. They tied a rope to the leg of the desk, and when the phone rang, when she went to reach for it, they pulled it from the other side from another wall, and the desk went away and you'd see her face. And knowing this was going to happen, that anticipation was, I turned to my parents, we were all waiting, it was like a surprise party.

And then when it happened, the woman, like, and it was a guttural laugh. that we all shared together. And I think even to this day, as a man who's about to turn 70, I look for that kind of shared experience of watching somebody else. You control the narrative.

Go ahead. So that explains the inner id in you relating to the inner it in them. That's kind of what I saw in this clip that I'd never caught before with you. It's like a revelation of like, here's my inner id, as messy as it is,

you know, come along for this journey we can have a little bit of laugh in here. Does it make sense? Yeah, but I feel bad. I'm not diminishing it. You're not diminishing it. But when I bring it to the surface and talk to you about it,

I mean, it's very self-serving. You know, and that's... Go ahead. I'm not trying to interrupt, but my point is you know more professional comedians than I do. I mean, they're all selfish bastards. that I've ever met. I've yet to meet a professional comedian that is not a selfish bastard.

Thank you. Well, it works for you guys. Does it? You know, the truth of the matter. Here's what I told my wife last night, because I told her we were going to talk today. And I said, you know, the difficulty in being around a guy who's an ace comedian is you can't get a laugh in edgewise because they don't laugh at your jokes. You know, it's like it's really hard to get a laugh out of a professional. But here's the thing. To get a laugh, but amongst comedians, the truth is, it's because, I think it's because

we see the humor. And I think that I appreciate, you're very funny, you are. I think that as I. Well, as Bill's half brother, you know, I got half the. But the thing about what I'm going to say to you is, and I think you can kind of, you can kind of relate from a musical standpoint. When somebody is playing music, you probably listen to that music and you hear...

Oh, I'm terrible. I'm the biggest snob in the world. Are you a snob or... Or, even if you're not a snob, even if you really enjoy something, it's not like you're going to go, woo! And just clap along. You are going to go, oh, my God, that is a brilliant collection and order of notes.

And what a brilliant idea that they decided to put this rhythm under that with that. You see it so clearly and understand it so clearly that you can appreciate it, enjoy it in a different way than maybe just the audience might enjoy it. But I'm still a snob. By the same token. It probably is a selfish bastard too. But by the same token, if I see something that I think is brilliantly funny and crafted, incredibly well, I kind of am so inside it that I appreciate it, love it, will probably repeat it to everybody I know and go,

you've got to see what this guy did last night or this girl did last night. But laughter, because I'm so, because I take it apart and see it for what it is, it doesn't elicit laughter. Unless you surprise me with it. Unless I'm not expecting to see it. I don't know that I'm about to listen to something or see something that might be funny. If I don't know and it hits me off guard,

then that's why I'm always, I always say to people, even on AGT, that people don't appreciate or understand that the comedian, you know, when somebody comes out on stage and they're singing a song that, mostly on AGT, that they didn't write. So they're just kind of copying something. And then they can play for their two minutes and then finish. And then everybody goes like this.

The comedian is constantly throwing these compositions at you, which come from their soul. Nobody else wrote it. It's truly who they are. And they don't, they can't wait. Take two minutes for you to go that to elicit. I see. I see. And if that sound doesn't come, it's really apparent to everybody else to maybe this isn't good.

That's why you have to do it in an audience. So if you're bombing on stage, not that you've ever bombed. I do bomb, and I've bombed this week. I bomb all the time. Okay, so what is your go-to if you're bombing? I'm actually at this point in my career, comfortable with this. discomfort. I like the idea. I know that that bombing forces growth and creativity to get out of that dark hole. So I go, I will drop in on clubs three, four times a week to just try things out.

I don't know that, so you go around town and just drop in? Always. Oh, I didn't know that. I'd love to come see you sometime. I'd probably be some, I won't be something like because I take over tonight. Bottom of my heart, I assume you're such a big star, you just don't do local gigs. No, I do. That's how I, that's how I know, in the middle of a rainstorm, I'll drive out to the ice house. I was at the laugh factory a couple times last week or the, because my process, I need to be in front of people to know, to know that, I know that I think it's funny.

But then to realize that, okay, I can't deliver this, or this isn't being received the way I think. But I also won't go there and do, when I drop it in the clubs, I won't do the Bobby Voice. I won't do, you know, things that people expect me to do because I love the process of the writing. I love the process of just trying something. Well, it's admirable because I didn't know that about you.

You should appreciate me. You're here. Comedy star, TV star, film star, entrepreneur, producer, Hollywood Walk of Fame. Is it enough? Well, first of all, the word star doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. What word would you use them? I'm working.

For example, I did a thing last night on the internet where I was revealing a next guest for this show in real time. And I started to refer to the person as a star, and I said, well, that doesn't quite qualify because so many people are stars these days. It's like internet stars and InstaFamous and all this. So I referred to the person as a true star

because I was having to search for a qualifier in current American culture. of what people are of actual accomplishment and I would place you in the ranks of people of actual accomplishment No, I think I'm a person who in any given day Don't be humble, come on. I'm not being humble, I'm being real. I have a perspective.

I'm a lot older than you. But you don't look at, that's the confusing part. It's because we keep our hair lines a secret. I really want to be your doctor is what I want. We keep our hair lines. No, you don't want to be my doctor, I'm telling you. The truth of the matter is, star, notoriety, fame

is really nothing. It's like you need to you need to... I know this. I mean, I'm with you, so... Okay, so, but what I'm saying is, you know, as important as you think you are in the moment... Okay, but that's what I'm after. Do you feel important enough?

Never. So what is important enough for you? I'm just trying to survive. I swear I'm just trying to... So there's not so much an aspirational goal at this point as much as I want to keep my head above water. But what's the aspiration? Like, what is, if I really break it down,

and I break it down because it was... You know, I've talked many times about when Richard Pryor used to come to the comedy store, he's my inspiration. And, you know, and a lot of young comics at the time he inspired and a lot of the comedy you see today is like that. But everybody who was anybody used to come to the comedy store to see this

because we knew it was a happening. At the time, the number one box office, so that's worldwide, around the world. The biggest movie star in the world, it used to show up every night, and it was such a big thing. Like, people were in awe. If our culture was bowing down the people,

they would have bowed down to Bert Reynolds. Okay. My 30-year-olds kids have no... they have no if I said Bert Reynolds they would have to Google them they don't it doesn't mean anything it doesn't it doesn't

so is your point if it doesn't have sustained therefore I don't get caught up in that I'm in the moment and I think that we need to this is going to sound too I'm learning that the importance

you know people who are seeking fame and I tell this to young people all the time, people who want to come up to you. Well, you're in it in these shows. I mean... Well, I'm doing something that I enjoy, and as luck would have it, the things

that I enjoy are being viewed by others, and maybe for a moment, you know, it's a distraction for them. Maybe in the moment there's people who are watching this right now, you know, maybe they're enjoying it. Maybe they think I'm full of shit. Maybe

they want to turn it off. Maybe they can't stand anything I'm saying. There are so many different things. Most people don't give a fuck. Most people don't care. And what I've learned through therapy is that I just need to survive, cope, and do the best that I could do in the moment. But is that a trauma response? Probably. Probably. You know, everything... I guess what I'm, sorry, but I guess what I'm after is, at what point do you, handsome as you are, look in the mirror, and say, I've done it, I've won the race, I can relax a little bit. It's not that I don't want to be...

Never. Is it because of this town makes you nuts, or because the four-year-old... It's not even show business. It's just never. I've never... I've just never... I wasn't in Hollywood and I was still selling carpet or whatever. Were you a good carpet salesman?

The best. Can you give me your pitch? Anything but talk about carpet. I'm colorblind. I just needed you to enjoy the time with me and buy whatever I was selling you. I see. And that's what it is right now.

I don't think I'm the best comedian either. I don't think I'm the best actor. I don't think I'm the best at anything. I just try my best. And at any given moment, I'm trying to be an interesting interview right now. So if somebody sat down and said, you're better than you think you are, here's my proof.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. No, I have to. Have you ever done this psychological technique? I've had my years in therapy, but you sort of imagine you're speaking to your four-year-old self. Have you ever done that? Yeah, my therapist had me do that. Great.

So what would you say to your four-year-old self if your four-year-old self knew that the future you was never going to feel comfortable? Like what would you say to that child empathetically? Like it's going to be okay or just keep moving, kid? keep moving because everything, and you may find this too, the older you get, everything you're incredibly, you cannot predict, you can't predict your life, you can't predict what you're going to do, you can't predict an outcome, you know, good or bad, and everything that I thought, Like, if you want to just narrow it down to the career, just the career alone, when I started in comedy and comedy started with me, you know, I didn't start, I didn't want to be a comedian. I didn't care. I didn't know. But in my world, comedians ended up getting movies and sitcoms and people who were in movies and sitcoms didn't want to do commercials. The last thing they wanted to do, which was the, the, the, the, dredge of whatever that hierarchy is, is a game show.

If I thought that my biggest, brightest shining moment would be the host of a game show, I would have said, are you fucking kidding me? In fact, when it came to me, I was turning it down. So everything I don't know, what I've learned to realize and what I would say to my four-year-old self is, as time goes on, as much as you're growing and changing it. so is culture. So you don't know. You can't make decisions to worry about the way you're going to do something,

how something is going to be perceived, what is going to happen? Because you're not only moving, but the world is moving. Can I give you a take on you as a game show host? Is that fair? Yeah. Okay. And I think it's particular maybe to my generation,

so maybe it wouldn't land for other generations. But I think what's been cool about your career, is if you'd ask somebody along the way, they would say, well, he's just a comedian. You know what I mean? And then people would debate as they do whether or not you're funny. Right, right. And that was the standard, right? He's funny. He's not funny. Good or bad. Something about your mainstreaming to American culture, I think sort of, it created a balance that didn't exist there before, which was like you belonged somehow into this greater American family. and your value was greater than whether or not he's funny or not funny. Does that make sense?

It does, but it's not as, you know, I went into deal or no deal kicking and screaming. I would imagine. And not only because of what I thought being a game show host would be perceived, as far as what 2005 what the landscape was for people who are, But also because I didn't understand how you could make an hour of television of having people pick a case and then me say open the case. Like, I didn't even have, I didn't have a trivia question to ask somebody. I didn't have a skill that they were going to comment.

I'm like, how many times over and over you've got two more cases, you have three more cases, open the case. In fact, while it was happening... See, that's funny. It is. It is funny. It really is. but in the moment as I'm just treading water, trying not to drown

What did your wife think? When you went home and said, Terry's your wife, right? Terry, lovely person. I've been blessed to meet her. I got this opportunity. What's she say? Oh, she's the one. I always say yes to everything in life

because I have fear of missing out and I also jump at things impulsively. It's the first thing that I ever ever, said no to. And I was in the midst of leaving, retiring. And when I say retiring, it was like, I wasn't going to go out on the road anymore. I wasn't selling tickets. I didn't know this. So, in your mind, you're kind of done. I was getting kicked in the nuts. My soul was being crushed every day. It was just embarrassing. I was sitting in... You were how old? In 2005? You guys do the math. You do the math. I don't know the math. Close to 50. I'm 70. Yeah, it's close to 50.

But it just wasn't, it was really hard. I wasn't incredibly successful at the time. You know, careers have ebbs and flows. And I just said, like, and I have other interests, as you know, in real estate and dropping in three, four times a week to comedy club. So I could do that and I can get my, I'm still doing it comedy. I don't have to sell tickets. I get that, yeah.

So I said, that's what I'm going to do. When they came to me with this, I thought, this is the nail in the, coffin in my career. And she knows me better than anybody and protects me more than anybody and loves me more than anybody. And she was the one that said, you better go do it. And I go, but it's nothing. She goes, you better go do it. You just need to do something. Was there an interrationalization there? Like, meaning, did she have a, like, a reason behind that? Yeah, because she knows that the more idle I am, the less I have to do if I don't have a place to go during the day and I'm waiting at night. do that. You mean idol, ID-L-E. When you said idol, I heard of ID-L-L-L-L-L, sorry.

I'm not an idol. But the more, the less I have to do, the more... So she's a proponent of stay busy and you're going to be fine? Of me staying busy. That's what I mean, yes. Personalizing because she's your wife. Yes. So she said, just go do it. And it doesn't matter if it's embarrassing. Just go do it. Just be busy. Be amongst people. Try to be creative. It's kind of that question that you asked earlier about when you're

bombing, how do you cope? She knows that if this was really hard for me, it's kind of like exercise, you know? If you one more sit-up, you're going to get closer to that six-pack. If you're in this shitty situation, how are you going to turn it around? So walk me through

from an existential point of view, the comeback, right? You know what I mean? Because in America, if you're able to have these second and third acts, you know, Sinatra and, you know, they're There's these legendary American cultural moments, Elvis. I don't know if you can compare. Does this mantra come back to deal or no deal?

But let me have my indulgence here. Okay, go ahead. Because that's what the show is for, right? I'm trying to make myself laugh here. Go ahead. No, because I find it really fascinating because one of the things that I want to establish if this show is successful is that we have learned to view success in the American paradigm incorrectly.

like I was saying before in the world you and I grew up in different generations but close enough you're known for this one thing I sing you make people laugh well when that stops get the hell out you're no good anymore

in fact the shadow of what you they take your highest shadow along the route and then they cast that over and you say look at you you're pathetic get out so those in our culture who can find some deeper resolve or courage to pivot, to find a new voice, to somehow find rejuvenation.

It's a very, very, very rare thing. And what you've accomplished is a very, very rare thing. It's a short list of people who have had a true second or third act at the peak. So I understand everything you're saying, except I'll tell you the frustration of that for me right now. And I love deal or no deal. Loved it. And probably the biggest success to date in my career of, you know, the kind of known...

And you know how I know that? Because my family, who lives in Florida, my extended family, they watched. So when I would go down... But I'm saying, because I don't live in that world, you know what I mean? I'm a weirdo. Right. So I know it's happening because when I go visit... my brother, it's on.

Okay. And that's how I know you're reaching that part of the world that I grew up in. And by the same token, I'm on AGT, which is America's got talent and Canada's got talent. And on YouTube. And Thailand's got talent. Yeah, but I'm not on Thailand's got talent. But Canada's got, there is Thailand's got talent. You know that?

It's in every country. I just made that joke, and I did not know that. It is the number one syndicated show in the world, not syndicated, form. So that format means Simon Cowell owns it. He made more money from that than he ever made from music. And at one time he had 10 people in, I mean, maybe five people in the top 10 on billboard worldwide as far as, you know, one direction, all these groups. But that's another conversation. Here's the thing.

I'm a stand-up comic. Stand-up comedy is what I do. continue to do. And as I told you, three, four times a week, maybe five, six times a week, I'm on stage doing it. As a stand-up comic, I got recognized and, you know, was given opportunities, whether those opportunities were sane elsewhere, whether it was deal or no deal, whether it was movies, whether it's AGT. You were on the match game. I was. I was on match game. I was on I was on everything. The point that I'm making is not a day goes by when I'm in public where somebody says to me, you know, you should do comedy. I used to love when you were a comedian.

And that kind of, that, you know, I love that you know me as the deal or no deal guy. I love that people watch me on AGT. But my love, you know, regardless of, you're a really good interviewer. This is a wonderful thing that you're doing. I wish you nothing and you're already having success and it's not by surprise. You're really good at this. Thank you. But you're a musician. Oh, yeah.

If you come up and say, I love your podcast and they don't even know I play music, I would over and die. If this thing becomes as big, if not bigger than Joe Rogan's. And they go, you're the podcast guy. Oh, you should do, you should do music. You were great. Remember smashing pumpkins? Remember that? So that's what I deal with each and every day.

So is it a Faustian bargain for you? Maybe. Except that I love all those other things. It's just that you forget my other art or the art that is closest to who I am and what I need and my... It doesn't... The fact that you don't know I do it doesn't really affect me, except that's what I am. You know, that's who I am. That's closest to who I am.

Yes. I was struck because I was doing my research on you. You did a movie with Ted Danson. fine mess. Uh-huh. Do you remember the poster? Yeah. Standing there on my hands down?

Well, he seemed to have you in some sort of... Oh, that was with the maid suit. But it says on the poster, and I thought this was kind of weird foreshadowing, because the movie came out, like, 80, somewhere around there? I think that's the box office, $80. I think that's what it... The poster literally says, anguished by anxiety,

plagued by paranoia, confounded by confusion. You need comic relief. Fast, fast, fast. That's on the poster. Yeah. Me. I was like, wow, that's a weird foreshadow. It wasn't foreshadow. I was in the midst of it, too. That was a great opportunity to work with Blake Edwards. Oh, my God. That's one of the reason I brought it up.

I mean, what a interesting person. Do you enjoy it? No. Okay, tell me why. Not funny? I was terrified. He was... Did he hold Peter Sellers over your head?

No, I held Peter. sellers over my head. For those, he did all the Pink Panther movies and he did a lot of... Was he funny, Blake Edwards? No. No. Unhappily. Did he understand? He understood comedy, obviously. Obviously. The party is, to me, one of the greatest... Best movies ever. Ever.

I mean, that movie is so... I know. The same guy who did the party. Birdie numn-n-n-num. It's like, still... So watch that movie and watch a fine mess and you watch the... So what happened to Blake Edwards? Let's talk about that. I don't think he was at a happy time in his life. I think he was suffering at back pain at the time. I don't know, I can't, you know, remember after that, like years after that, remember he came on the Academy Awards

in a wheelchair. I remember. I remember. Yeah, I think he did. But he, I've regaled in my book and on other podcasts, the story that he told me that sticks with me, and it's the story, it's this one story that he told me, and he told me the story about this guy goes to,

goes to the psychiatrist and he's just crying and can't even sit in the chair he's in the fetal position and apparently he's been seeing the psychiatrist for a while and he goes I just came in this last time to tell you that I'm going to end it I can't do it and he had been going to the psychiatrist who had tried regular therapy medication hypnosis, everything that a therapist, a psychiatrist, could have in their toolbox.

And the guy said, that's it. You know, I appreciate you trying to help me and being here for me, but I can't, I'm suffering. I just can't take any more, but I just wanted to come one more time and just say thank you and I do appreciate it. And the doctor said, you know, I don't want you to do that.

but can we try one more thing? And he said, the circus is in town. And I think it's, I don't remember the clown's name, but this buff of the clown is this world-renowned clown that has made everybody and anybody laugh. And laughter is the best medicine. In fact, he has been, whether you speak English, all over the world, he's made people almost die laughing.

He really has. And I know that if you laugh, you know, cortisol will be released. And I would imagine that will bring you out of your cloud. Just try, let's just try laughter. Come see Bafo, the world. And I have two tickets tonight. I'll go with you. Love that the therapist is going.

And the guy looked up through his tears. And he looked at the psychiatrist and he said, I am Bafo. That's a good joke. I didn't see that one coming. I don't know. I think it's kind of real. But that's, I believe he told me that story because Blake Edwards is Bofo.

I'm Bafo. You know, I think that under this mask of being silly and funny and light and in this chaos and panthea of laughter, you know, we're just trying to hold back our tears. So why didn't you enjoy the process of working with them? Because he was unhappy. And he wasn't able to give you. And it wasn't that good a movie. And I think that he was at the end of his career, though right afterwards he did, what's the movie?

He did a movie right after that was a huge hit. I think he did 10 right after with Dudley Moore. Yeah, okay, yeah. I had his low point. I hit him at the low point. I hit everybody at their low point. I did another movie. One of my first movies is a bit.

movie called Gas. It's with Donald Sutherland. And it was done in 1980. It's written by Dick Wolf, who went on... He was a TV guy, no. LA law... What's it called?

Law and Order. Right. And a whole... You know, he's... But the first thing he ever wrote, I did. You know? But I haven't been lucky with writers and directors, except on Sin elsewhere.

Okay. I found this fact about you surprising, so you tell me if it is a fact. Dungeons and Dragons player? No. Where'd that come from? Do you know? No, but sometimes I'll...

It's in your bio. Yeah, then, you know, the truth of the matter is I've put a lot of things in my bio and my Wikipedia because I find that funny just to put odd little... Have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons? Never. In fact, I have been fascinated...

Are you at Dungeons and Dragons? I used to play when I was a kid. Yeah, I... No, I'm fascinated by it. It's bigger than ever. They're going to do a television show now. I think they are as a game show. I don't understand it.

I don't have that focus. I think you'd have to focus. It's a very slow thing. That's the problem. And you have to roll dice? I see people. You'd hate because other people have to touch the dice. You'd have to have your own 20-sided dice.

There was a, I lived in Santa Monica for a while, and there was this comic book shop. And every Friday night I'd see. There they are. And their Doctor Who scarves. Yes. It's kind of a... Right? Yes.

And I wonder in... Especially back then. It was like, who are these people? That's exactly right. And my wife gets mad at me because my curiosity is my fuel. And I always want to know what's going on in there. What are they doing? And so I used to stand and watch Dungeons and Dragons.

Yeah. Watch people play and be fascinated by how they looked. Here's one that you'll... Roses or Red. Violet. are blue. I'm schizophrenophobic. So my. That's mine. And I know. I had dice. I'm not that clever. No, but Dice came on my podcast, Andrew Dice Clay. By the way, I've still never met Dice.

And I'm in awe of Dice. So if you can make that happen. I will make that happen. When you look back at you as the young comedian, do you have any, I don't know, empathy is the right word? something that you can only see now looking back? Because, you know, that style of comedy was very frenetic. The fear was fanatic. So I don't know that I'm different as much as I don't have as much fear, but I try to get fear. Today, when I go on stage, you wish you were scared. But I make myself scared. I will purposely... How do you make yourself scared? By creating, by purposely veering off whatever plan I have by purposely reacting. Walk me through the mind of a pro-comedian.

We're all different, but I can talk about myself. Just indulge me. So there you are in Montana. You're at the Elks Lodge. Tomorrow I'm in Fargo. Okay. Beautiful. So we're in Fargo. Not in this month. We're in Fargo. Yeah. There they are. America. They love you. Uh-huh. They know you. Okay. And you're going along and you know you've got your 40 bits that you could reach in your pocket anytime, you're going to get guaranteed laughs.

Yeah. Okay? Mm-hmm. We all know our little buttons we can press. Right. And you decide halfway through the set, you know what, I need to get my blood going. Walk me through something that you do. So what will happen is, you know, there'll be a noise or, you know, somebody yells something out like they do at every concert.

They're at anybody's concert, music or... What would somebody yell at howie Mandel County? I probably don't know. Like I'll hear and I'll stop and go, what was that? Was there a bell? That was beautiful. Well, I'm in a bonus red.

Can we open the case now? How did that happen? I don't know. It was a match ago. Wow. So I'll hear a bell. But then going off on that tangent isn't as safe as going to something that I've tried.

Because you don't know where it ends. No. Because I'm going, what did you just say? You know? It could be you suck. Can I tell you a fun? money bit? Yeah. So I had this exact experience at a theater in New York. My band was kind of on the down, and so the audiences were particularly hostile at that time. And same thing,

it was between songs, I was talking, and I heard a guy yelling, like, and I sort of did one of these to the audience, like, what did he say? And he, and I said, I want to hear what he's saying. And he said, I think you're terrible and you suck and you need to get off the stage. And everybody heard him because I calmed the crowd down. It's a theater. So I said, why don't you come up here and say it on the microphone? I love that. And he came up and he cut like a wrestling promo on how terrible I was and how I'd lost my way in my musical life in front of my crowd. And how did you feel? I love wrestling. So what I did was I let him walk off the stage as if he was victorious because, of course, he went off the stage like a victor, and then I let loose on the

microphone. So that's exactly what you're doing, and you're in a totally different milieu, but not really. It's the same as me. It's all comedy. But what I'm saying, it's all life. And whether you laugh at it, whether it scares you, whether the audience feels like, oh, my God, I just witnessed. Yes.

It's exciting. I love that. You know, I have a guy next door. My buddy, do you know Tom Green? Of course. I love Tom. Somewhere I have Tom Green's number in my phone. I think he's here.

I hung out with Tom, I should say hi. I've hung out with Tom in Vegas last time I saw him. He had a great time. So Tom was the king. Another Canadian, right? Yes. You guys do hang together. We do.

You have to admit. Tom, have Tom walk into here if he's right here. No, he's not welcome on my show, but go on. But that'll be a nice moment of you throwing him off the show. The, the, the, what I'm saying to you is, He was the king of doing something where you would say... Yeah, I can't believe he just did that. I can't believe he just did that.

Is it funny? Is it gross? He's known for humping a dead moose. You know, that was one of his first thing. Yeah, on MTV. Speaking about trauma. Couple things. We're into the bonus round.

Okay. Okay, ready? I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much for indulging me. As someone who comes in direct contact with... As someone who comes in direct content with... Contact. As someone who comes in direct contact with the American public, what do you really think of America?

America has given me... No. What do you really think of America? Well, I don't think America is any different, and I'm going to get hate for this online, than where I come from. I come from. I'm from Canada and I really believe people are people. The problem, if there is a problem with people and I do believe there is, I believe the problem with people is we have a tendency. Most people don't do what you and I do and that is... Play for a living. But go, go. They don't go. And most people, I can't tell you how many times I land in a town and somebody in their 50s picks me up to take me to the theater or wherever

I'm playing and they tell me what's California like or I've never been on an airplane or I've never been so people have a tendency we have a tendency like these little animals with you know that get in little pods of people who are like-minded who are in the same socioeconomic and they trade the information and even, you know, they all have their personal algorithm. Even before the internet, everybody that was in my little family circle, in my little suburb, that's an algorithm and that's what they know. Sure. I can't, and you know, I remember when my mom was living in Florida and she would say,

you know, everybody hates so-and-so. Everybody in your condo, everybody hates so-and-so. So I have a feeling that most people just are not... aware, aware of what it's like. I think the internet... So you don't... When you see that, you don't judge it, is what I'm trying to say. I'm asking.

I don't judge it. I'm aware of it. I'm aware of it. Yeah, because I've had a tendency at times to see that and it makes me cynical. And I'm so, I was curious. Because you see... Well, I can't react to it, but it's kind of like that Kendrick Lamar song, they're not like us.

And the truth is, they're not. And I realize that they're not and you're not like me and I'm not like you. We have similarities, but we are victims of our circumstance and of our environment. And most people outside of show business don't, we are forced. I'm forced to go to Fargo and sit in a restaurant in Fargo. And when I'm waiting for the show during the day, go to the mall and watch people interact and talk to people. My parents, I come from a normal suburban, I grew up in an apartment, my parents never met anybody from Fargo or from Florida or from, you know, so it's like I realize they don't know. So it's an empathetic take?

If it's more of a cynical, you're not as, because a lot of people. No, it's part of my, I can't control it. I'm not like it. But you haven't taken it out on the public. Like you're generally a positive comedian. No, I don't think I'm positive. You don't think you're positive? No, I think I'm, to be totally honest with you now, I am so medicated that I'm numb.

I am. I wish I had more... We'll have you back without the meds and we'll see how that goes. I don't know that I can make it back without the meds. I need the meds. But the meds are... I don't feel pain. I don't feel fear.

I don't feel... I'm kind of dead. Yes, I am. My family complains about it. I don't know what to say. I mean, you seem lovely to me, so. I'm lovely, but I'm a lovely soulless, dead person. I don't know if that is.

Well, that takes us right into my... No, just because I'm so empathetic, maybe, and overly sensitive that I need to be... I see where you're going now. I'm numb because... Pharmaceutically numbed. Right. so that I don't go all over the place. Okay.

You know, I always have to find that, you know, they're always upping it and lowering it and whatever, my meds. Yeah, I kind of went a different route, and I don't know if it was the right route. It's never, it's... I live in a sort of a constant anxiety. But we get comfortable with discomfort. Yes, but when you talk about the alchemical process

of transmuting trauma, pain, experience and enlightenment into art. You know, that's an interesting Willy Wonka machine that goes on inside. And that was my biggest, so it was either survive or take medication. Sure, I get that. I was so afraid that I wouldn't have the art.

I wouldn't have, but I don't know that if it's affected my artistic endeavors, I don't know. I don't know. Right. But I hope it hasn't, and I'm still paying the rent, so I guess I'm okay. Okay, we're at the very end. Thank you.

This has been really fun. I hope you've enjoyed it. Has it been painful? It's not painful at all. I love you, buddy. I love your art. I think you're, I've gotten a chance to meet your beautiful family. And I yours.

And when you meet somebody, when you listen to somebody and you enjoy their music and their performance, and then you meet somebody and they turn out to be even a better person than you can imagine, it is kind of thrilling. because those are few and far between. You know, they say don't meet your heroes, don't meet people that you're a fan of because you will be disappointed. You are not a disappointment.

And in fact, I have been watching this particular show since it began, and I told you off camera, but I'll tell you on camera, you've interviewed some of the people that I've had on my podcast and you've done a much better job. And even with those particular people, the audience said,

home has decided you've done a much better job and you've gotten much bigger numbers than I ever got. And deservedly so. You are very good. And I don't think from listening and watching smashing pumpkins for the years I have, I would have known that you are so such a good because it's a skill that I don't really have. I'm just personally interested in talking to people, but you have a real skill here. I don't know where it comes from. That's the weird thing. I sort of just found myself like zealig in this world. Our final. What is your fulfilled wish? And what I mean by that is setting aside everything we've discussed, the obstacles and the inhibitions and the medications, is there a fulfilled wish where you see yourself in your mind's eye a place of a rival?

I have been... Just try. No, no, I'm answering you. Okay. I don't mean don't try to answer me. I'm just trying to do the visualization. The visualization, if you could believe it, and it's also a therapeutic skill set,

is to try to live in the now. And I try to make now as painless as possible. So it's not... I don't wish for something in the future, because wishing for something in the future in my negative kind of view of life. That creates more anxiety. Well, because I'm not there.

I wish I had that. I wish I wasn't here. I wish I was there. So, or I wish I had, then I'm ruminating on the past. So my wish is that this moment is as painless as possible, as productive as possible, as good as possible. Like I'm doing my, I'm having a good moment where I won't look back on this moment. call, oh, why did I do that?

You know? So it's just, I'm taking moment by moment. It's just, I'm climbing this ladder, and I just want this rung to not snap. You're supported by the Zen Masters, be in the now. I'm trying. I read a lot about the power of now. Yeah.

Eckhart Holt. Yeah. You reminded me something I've been telling my young son, who's about nine, you know, because he's starting to realize what adulthood looks like, you know. They're very early glimmers. that and I'm conscious of not putting my trauma on my child and I told him the other day just

be happy wherever you are even standing in the line just be happy that's all I saw Seinfeld said living is he said something beautiful he said wasting try to find a way to waste time with something you enjoy in that given moment because that's all it is just waste your time waste it with something you enjoy. I'm enjoying myself in this moment. I'm enjoying talking to you. For the most part, I haven't thought of where I have to go after this. I haven't thought of what I did before this.

You kept me in the moment. I enjoyed this conversation. I enjoyed my time here. Thank you. And so this was good therapy for me. And now I'll go and leave and be miserable. We're done. Thank you.

I give you the fist smoke.