The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - John 5 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with guitar virtuoso John 5 for a charged conversation about music, mastery, and survival. John opens up about his private KISS museum, the TV-music desert that shaped his Telecaster tone, and a grind honed through Rudy Sarzo, Bob Marlette, Rob Halford, and David Lee Roth. He gets raw about grief, discipline, and the ritual of running full Mötley Crüe sets at dawn—how stepping into that legendary band pushed him to new physical and creative extremes—while revisiting Eddie Van Halen’s genius and the chaos of the Marilyn Manson years. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's all about the music. It really is all about the music. And you can't, I really don't think you can deny greatness. This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus. It's great. You've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us.

The other guys were so mean to me. And I just wanted nothing but for them to succeed. Everything is just swimming along. Motley crew. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Right? It's so weird to even say.

Well, thank you very much. It's nice to see you again. You know, you've done so many things musically, but let's talk about kiss. Yeah. Let's talk about what we really care about. So someone from your world sent me a clip of you. on the news. And I just had to laugh because, you know, it's like, here we are at the kiss. And then, and then it's like on, you know, local TV, nights in Satan's service museum.

And I was like, oh, my God, this is so, so meta-America that no one realized it was, you know, had something to do with Satan out on the local news. Yeah. So, am I, 2,500 items is your, is your, There's 2,500 items, but if we're counting records and cassettes and eight tracks and reel of reels, then we're well over 5,000. Wow. So, yeah. Have you thought about, no, it's Satan's playing. Yeah. Have you thought about, I mean, I don't know your wife, but I mean, at some point does she go, should we put this, like, institutionalizing, making it like an official thing?

Yes, she gives me that sigh of disappointment, you know, as only a wife can. So she sees you bidding on something. Yeah, yeah. Auction, right? Sweating. Yes, you know, I have the same problem. So people watch my show get mad when I interject myself in other people's things. But I mean, I think we're similar than we collect a lot of stuff.

Yeah. So when I was reading about you, you're collecting, I was like, that makes total sense to me. And I can watch things on people collecting anything. Like thimbles or... Yeah. I think collecting so fascinating. And I always... Because I collect weird stuff, but like...

Like, sometimes people say, what do you collect? So I like to collect post-war Japanese porcelain figures. They call them post-war Japan. Interesting. The U.S., in order to get the Japanese economy going again, started buying a lot of porcelain from Japan. So they're literally stamped post-war Japan.

Wow. And they look like kind of early anime. It'll be like an American cowboy, but it looks like anime, speed racer-ri vibe, but fight from the 50s. Yeah. So, but, you know, as you know, when you go down the rabbit hole of a collecting world,

then there's, now you're in Kiss World. Yes. Now you're in porcelain post-war. You know, it's like, it's really nerdy in there. Like, oh, you don't want that. That's, you know, that came out later. That's the reissue. This is the real thing.

Right, right. So, what did you start collecting pretty early on? Yeah, I started collecting. And I, I, I, I, believe that, you know, in my eyes, it's just makes me feel good from my childhood. Because, you know, you and I grew up and Kiss was all over the place. And I was, I would collect back then. I would remember going to Toys R Us and Thun them through the dolls and or the action figures, I should say, not dolls, but.

I could see Gene action. Yeah, yeah. So I loved it and I still have been collecting, um, through all this time. But what I'm doing is I'm really trying to document and make a catalog of everything. Oh, like almost like a master catalog? Yes. They probably don't have something like that, right? Oh, no, no, no.

I mean, I'm talking from every country of like... Oh, my goodness. South America and Korea and everything. There's 27 different versions of dynasty from Korea. And it's still in that era. of because I cut off at the a coin years of 83. Okay, no, 83. But I really do, trying to do a, just for rock and roll history.

Yeah, yeah, because Gene sat in that very chair and he was like, you know, we had two factories in the valley, you know, full-time 24 hours a day. But, I mean, it's the Beatles. Like, they just threw their name on everything, but that's what makes it cool, you know? Yeah. So for those who don't know what we're talking about, home museum, right, privately guided tours by you. Yes.

You're taking like six people at a time. Is that sound accurate? Yeah, because I want to spend a couple hours with each person and talk to them, play pinball with them, you know, really, and officiados come in there, and they're like, oh, do you have the tour book that was only really? released for these two shows, and here it is, and things like that. So people really enjoy it. I mean, people, it brought tears of their eyes just to touch the costumes from back in the day.

Yeah, I'm big on objects, I guess. I have some original wrestling stuff, you know, I have like the original female belt of the world. You know what I mean? And when you just hold that piece of history and you think that the buildings that this belt was in. So when you're holding something like something of jeans from 1974, it's like it's living history. So what's your, you must have a prize possession or prize possessions? I believe I have two. I have the only remaining destroyer boots.

So he's those dragon boots. And they're just, they're barely hanging on, and they smell and there's mold, there's blood and everything. So those and then Jean's outfit from, I don't know if you saw the clip on Donahue when he was on there very early. on it. It was like their first TV appearance. I think I was watching it live in Chicago. Yeah, so he's got that outfit on. He's worn it for hundreds of shows, so I have that as well.

He told me he would just ride on it with the subway, because they had no money and interesting. This is a little bit of a side question, but I always wonder with the band like Kiss, how much stuff ends up floating out into the market, especially when it was band members' personal stuff. You must know some of the allegorical history. Would they just give stuff to like a roadie or like,

they didn't think anything of it or? Such a great question because on the cover of Hodder and Hill and Paul wore this belt at tons of concerts and on the cover of Hodder and hell, he's got this belt. And someone reached out to me and said, oh, I have his belt. And he sent me a letter of how he got it. And Paul just traded it to him for a ring. for some jewelry.

Because in 1975, in Port Huron, because, you know, to Paul, it was probably just some old costume piece. You and I have both known about that. What do we do with it? And the guy had it for decades and then just got it to me. But I think everybody ends up selling eventually. We all, once we perish.

Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is, it always strikes me, it's one thing if it comes from the artist. Sure. Like, you got stuff that I, You got stuff that only you would have. I got stuff only I would have. Of course. Right.

You know, like you've gone on tour with Molly Crew, it's like you've got one of so many tour books, something like that thing. You throw in the closet, you know, it's like, there it is. Right. But when it seems to kind of, like, when you say these boots, like at one point did Jean turned to a cousin and go, you can have the boots and, you know, that stuff always strikes me as sort of.

It is. It's interesting. It's novel. I saw one reference this. please excuse me if I don't have it right, but did this some point, you had a kiss collection, you sold it to somebody?

That's correct. So what happened was, and I'm just going to be completely honest, I was collecting and had my buddy who I would collect with. It's wonderful, wonderful guy. His name's Rubin, and, you know, he was just such an incredible person,

didn't have a lot of friends. But, you know, we were like partners and we would collect together and we'd have so much fun. And he was young, got sick, got cancer and died. And I was devastated. I was so devastated that I couldn't even look at the stuff, you know. So then, this is so strange, Billy, this is so strange. Then a few years later, I picked it back up. and got back into it, and I got my new partner that I would, you know,

um, collect with. And we had, we had such a good time. We'd do all this thing. And he was just diagnosed with stage four cancer. Oh my goodness. And he's young. I'm like, well, what is going on? You know, so he's fighting.

I talked to him twice a day, every day. So it's just, um, it's just, you know, it's, it's very strange. Yeah. When Gene was here, Gene Simmons, of course, I argue with him that I thought Kiss was better than he thought. And I thought it was a novel approach to take because I've seen him be kind of almost pseudo-dismissive at times of Kiss's music. Sure. And I thought, I bet no one's ever gone at him like this. And I actually kind of got him back on his heels a little bit, which is hard to do, as you know.

Gene's a very tough character, very bright. And he's heard it all and he's seen it all. Of course. to try to even find an angle in to talk about stuff. But I was curious about your, because as a fan, especially as a great musician, what's your take on their sort of musical legacy? You know, like, let's call it the musicians take for musicians of Kiss. Absolutely.

I don't think we'd be talking about Kiss today if it wasn't for the music. And it's not just the music from the debut record to Creatures of the Night. All those great records, they had... So many hits in the 80s. It's crazy. Tons! Great, great, great, great, great songs. Heaven's on fire.

I mean, what a great song. Oh, my God, crazy nights. Like, uh, all night. X and sex, you know? I mean, it's unbelievable. It's all about the music. It really is all about the music. And you can't, I really don't think you can deny greatness.

I mean, there's two types of music. It's good and bad. Yeah, I just think it's interesting, because generally speaking, there's a ton of love for Kiss in the rock community. It's not just sentimental. It's like everybody knows Aces is a great guitar player, that they wrote great songs.

Yeah. But somehow there's that sort of public thing, and I think a lot of it honestly has to do with Gene kind of talking in public for so many years, kind of making it about money. And I don't know if it was on the Donahue appearance that you referenced, but I remember watching Gene interviewed very, when I, I mean, I couldn't have been, it was probably mid-70s, so I would have been eight, nine years old watching them,

and I was a fan, and he was so crass. And the audience was like, you're right. You know, because they'd all grown up on Gene Autry, you know, just want to sing these songs and, you know, Liza Minnelli and all this. And here's Gene, just like, we'd do whatever we got to do, you know. It was so crass that it was shocking, and it was effective in a kind of a marketing, way of, you know, making people think about what they were doing in a different way. But I think in the long tale of that was then Kiss, it became, and you've seen it, because you're a fan, you've seen those reviews from like 1975, like, you know, they can't play, they can't say and can't dance, you know, all that stuff.

So, it's funny because in the beginning, they didn't want Gene to do interviews because he was, oh, because it was the character, yeah. Yeah, and he was, he's so educated and so well-spoken. And so when you, like, just for fun, you know, go on the YouTube's and look up this interview, Donahue, 1974. And it's so weird because he's like, your audience looks very appetizing and stuff like that. Oh, is that when he was trying to be that character. Yeah. So they were just, you know.

What's that famous is it Mike Douglas where he's on there with like. Oh, it's Mike Douglas. I'm sorry, it's not Donoghue. Oh, my God. But there's that. It's Mike Douglas. But he's on there with some actress, and she goes, oh, come on, I know you're just a Jewish boy from the Bronx.

Yeah, you can't hide the hook. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. So there's this, like, but he's trying to kind of play evil. Right, and he's like trying not to like smirk and laugh. It's like, it's like totally schmaltzy. Yeah, Mike Douglas. Oh my God, I feel so bad.

Why did I say Donahue? But what it was funny about that is now it looks kind of funny in the abstract, right? Because now we know how the movie, like when Paul was here, I said, you know, now we know how the movie ends so we can kind of look at, they'd have fun and look at things, you know, in a rosy way. But I think it's fascinating that they didn't really know what they were stumbling into. And there are those moments where Gene's like, am I supposed to be the evil guy? And at some point, he settles on the kind of, you know, the Stentorian kind of,

or is it Centorian? Is it a bird that gene? Yeah. You know, and then, of course, Ace is just the loose canon, the famous, the famous, what's it, Tom Yeah, yeah, Tom Snyder. Tom Snyder. I was on Tom Snyder once

and I was totally geeking out. But, I mean, ACE is out of his mind. And you can see the band just like going, oh God, there goes, there goes our career and they want to kill him. The first time I met Gene, I was a little kid and I...

How old? It was a licking up tour. So it was probably 13. Is this like a meet-and-grit type of deal? No, I skipped school. which is very odd and um meant to be yeah but i was like i went to the posth train hotel in detroit downtown not the safest place in the world and a preppy kid from gross point michigan and and got there and waited all day and here comes jean and he just walks right by me and

gets in the elevator and i was like i'm going to get in the elevator i'm not going to blow this so he's standing like this like this and i'm just walking like this and i'm just going to get in the elevator i'm not going to blow this and i'm I have my, the originals booklet, and I said, will you sign this? And he just wouldn't answer me. He was just, and I'm just this little kid like saying her with like my booklet. And he just wouldn't answer me. It wouldn't look at me. So he gets, we get to the floor. Yeah. And Billy, I'm being so honest, I can't believe I did this. Door opens. He goes, you want me to sign that for you, son? And I go, no, it's okay. Can you believe it? I can't believe I did that.

Well, he'd hurt your feelings. Yeah, like, he just obviously didn't want to, you know, do it. So I was like, it's okay, forget it. Well, God bless him. Yeah. All of them, really. Oh, I love them. So let's talk about you now.

Thanks for having me. It's been great talking about Kiss. I love, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I saw that you started playing guitar because you saw somebody playing on Hihaha, and it was the guy I think it was playing banjo, but of course, right, what's his name again? Jimmy Henley.

Yeah, and of course, Roy Clark was like a total shredder. The best. Crazy. Crazy. And I think it's hard maybe for younger generations to understand that music was so scarce on television in America in the 70s and early 80s. Like, we took wherever we could get it.

Yeah, anything. Part Shandley, the monkeys. He-Haw. Right. So we, like, and Mickey Dolan's was in that chair, too, and it was like, very song. But it's like, oh my God, somebody's singing a cool song to me. Thank God, there's something. Yeah. Banana splits. Anything. Right. Yeah. So talk a little bit about that because I think that's, he-ha is a very underappreciated part of our culture. Absolutely. Because in Middle America, it was sort of presented as like, you know, the local yokel rednecks having to laugh. But when you really look, there was like Buck Owens. I mean, you had real musicians there.

All of them were just incredible. And I would watch this with my dad and, you know, it was, it was what was on. And I was so. It was all that was on. It was all that was on. That's it. I was so drawn to Don Rich and, and. Oh, God, Don Rich. Oh, my God. I was like just. Can that guy play? Oh, my God. And Buck Owens. Yeah. Tell me, too. Yeah. Telly guy. So I was so drawn to the electric guitar, I was like, I couldn't, I just couldn't take my eyes off of it. And that's why I play a telly, because at my young age, I was like, six, I was like, I want to play the electric guitar.

And I didn't think they came in any other shape. I thought it was just- Oh, you just thought that was the shape. I just thought that was the shape of an electric guitar. Yeah. And I was so mesmerized by it, and I just would always talk about the guitar, And so I saw Jimmy Henley in 1976 playing this banjo.

He was playing Orange Blossom Highway and just killing it. And he was this kid too. He was a kid. And I was like shocked. I was like, I can't believe this is incredible. But even at such a young age, I mean, I play banjo and I love banjo. But even at a young age, I was like, I want to play a little. electric guitar, not banjo.

So something about the guitar. Yeah, and it really was such an epiphany for me. Do you play Scrugg style? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I haven't quite, I can't wear the, do you do the, was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the hump-picked. Yeah, I've never been able to get comfortable with that. Yeah, it's so interesting.

And I'll use my fingers, like live, I'll play, you know, but I'll just use my fingers, but I love the banjo. But Kiha, like, television, I think is so important because it could change your life forever. Yeah. Just being influenced by music and things like that. Well, you know, Morello and Adam Jones and I all grew up in sort of the same area. So it's like, and we were all watching the same stuff you were watching outside of Detroit, right? It's just like we were taking it anywhere we could get it.

Anywhere. So there's something really beautiful about that. I think that, on some of the I almost say that the scarcity of information forced us to use our imagination and our musical ambitions in unique ways. And I think that's why we're all kind of unique guitar players. Yeah, of course. We didn't sort of all end up in the same camp.

Of course. It's loosely defined as alternative music, but I don't really think. Of course. Like I've always said, no, too, but I, like, I, When you play guitar, I understand how you play guitar. You know, we don't play the same, but I get why you do what you do. It's not like I'm listening.

It's too weird to me. It makes total sense. And I always felt that way of Morello and Adam's same way. Yeah, and it's funny. The reason I do play guitar like that, because just being honest, it's like I don't really talk about it that much, but I had, you know, I loved Randy Rhodes and Inveh and, you know, everybody that we all loved. Steve Vai and Joseph Hattriani.

And I learned all that stuff. I really loved it. But I started, like, putting out instrumental records. I've had so many deaths in my family, like an unusual, strange amount. Like my mom, dad, two sisters, brother-in-law, best friend, father, you know, niece. Like, it just goes on and on, very strange. And so I would go into therapy. I was going into therapy because I was like, you know,

I thought it was cursed in some way. You know, it's just very strange. But the therapist told me something so imperative that I'll never forget and it changed my life forever. He said, do something to occupy your brain, to really occupy your brain. And that's why I was started with the instrumental records. Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that, but we could talk about it now.

Yeah. Should you put out 10? Is that accurate? Yeah, yeah. So it's just a way to have something to really hyper-focused. To hyper-focused, because if not, I'd probably, you know, be throwing feces at traffic or something, you know. Well, you'd be playing on he-haw. Yeah, that'd be great.

But, yeah, it really helped so much. I mean, it was incredible because you're really trying to, you know, master this technique and this different styles of music and all that stuff you know so it really helped a lot that explains it yeah um because you're you're an unusual case because when you kind of came on to the musical scene and and i heard about you and people talk about your playing you know you didn't have this immediate like uh i don't say a man without a country but you know for a while you seemed to kind of float between projects bands artists and stuff like that in a way that like jeff back or something more like a gun Slinger type, and you seem comfortable with that. But that explains it to me because I was like,

well, how does this other component fit in it? Because you've never, you don't seem like somebody who wants to be viewed as a proto shredder type. Like, it's not really your brand. Right. How do you, here's a question for you in 2025. How do you define your brand? I love to, I love music in general, country jazz, everything rock, but I love, I love just being with different bands like Manson or Zombie or Motley Crew, or, but then I love to like just go nuts and do these crazy, you know, shredding shows and albums. I really have the best of both worlds, because I'm not going to go play, you know, Home Sweet Home with sliding arpeggios and stuff like that. It's just wouldn't work.

Well, you'd cause some kind of ride. Yeah. But that's why it's just wonderful to have kind of the best of both worlds, you know? Yeah. It's, I'm so happy and very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's, I mean, we're living the dream. Yes.

We're not sure. Explain to me how you suddenly end up in L.A. at 17. Was it the classic Midwest, I got to get out of here. I'm going to go where the music is. Yeah. Well, where I grew up, Gross Point, it's kind of like Beverly Hills, but kind of even beyond. I once had a crush on a girl in Gross Point, so I have a little bit of Gross Point information back of the day. It's beautiful.

Like, it was beautiful. Sorry, and I'm not a Detroit or I'm a Chicago. Sure, of course. But, you know, people would see to me, oh, she's from Gross Point. Yeah. Meaning it's never going to work. See, that's a good one, right? That's a good one.

That's a good one. That's actually really good. Because I had a cry. She was very beautiful, and it was like, Sarah, going to work. She's from girls' point. That's so funny. That's so funny.

The point being, she's always going to go back to the country club. She's not going to hang out with the rock. Of course. She's not going to, which is, you know. It's like every Bill Murray ever, movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie movie. Um, these, this is such strange story, but these people from Warner came flu.

because I heard about me. And they were like... Just like a local rep thing? Yeah. Okay. Very odd. Are you local bands? Because there's not a ton of information about you in this period of your life.

I had like this local band and we played all Van Halen, you know, and it was just we won all these battle of the bands and I was playing nightclubs at like when I was in junior high and, you know, it was like... Are these just like rocker bars? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, rocker bars. So not more on the rock side.

Which you would maybe know. Harpos. You remember Harpos? Yeah. I don't think we ever played there. Okay, yeah. But so there was, anyway, these people came and they were like, oh, we think he would do really well and blah, blah, blah.

So I didn't even graduate. So I just went. Okay, stop there. So what do your parents say at this point? So I've never had a drink, never had a smoke or anything, never a cigarette or anything's, and they were supportive. Because they were like, you're an adult and you can handle this. Yeah, we know you're not going to like, you know,

and I was so obsessed with guitar. I mean, so obsessed. And I drove out, I drove out actually with the drummer from Megadeth. He was on the album, So Far So Good, So What? What was his name? I can't remember him? Chuck Bueller.

Okay, right. So he, I drove out with him because he lived in Michigan. You're driving out there. And I knew nothing. I mean, I was so sheltered. So you have your stuff and the guitar. I, an amp. Yeah.

And I was so sheltered. I knew nothing. I could hardly cross the street, you know. So. Especially coming out here. So that would have been what year? I'm trying to be like. 88.

That was a good time to come out here. Yeah. I actually came out here right about the same time, too. Really? Yeah. A friend's sister had moved out here, so we kind of came out here for a week to kind of hang and sleep on the floor and went to a club screen.

Sure. Saw the fuzz tones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and Asbury showed up and sang a song. It was very L.A. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I mean, a great time to be here. Plus early Janes, right?

I saw everybody. T-S-O-L. Yeah. Everybody. When they kind of went almost like more a new wave. Yeah, rage and they would just play these clubs. Yeah. There was that interesting little sliver of time.

Yeah. Carameadow was kind of at the Wayne, and there was that sort of moment of like, where does this go? Yeah, and you would see a lot of bands just get up and play, like Guns and Roses at the Cat House. It would just get up and play. Yeah, I'd hear the stories, but I was never there. Yeah, I was there.

Luckily, Ricky Rackman would let me in. I was so young, I was so young, but he knew I would drink. He knew. He knew, I didn't drink or anything. He was like, okay, too. He knew. But I drove out here with the drummer, and he was like, oh, I got to go to my friend's house.

And I'm like, we're like in a bad neighborhood. What are you talking about? And he would go score dope. I didn't know what he was doing. I was like, oh, how's your friend? You know, and I didn't know. Is your friend okay? Yeah.

And all of a sudden, he was all better. Okay, your trigger your memory. Because when I was out here and we were staying with like the friend's family type thing, the guy, the man of the house, he was smoking heroin. Yeah. So suddenly, like, we had a leave. Right. Like, we got kicked out.

Yeah. Which is like, but we're just sleeping on the floor for a few more days and we're going to go down to Hollywood Boulevard. It's like, you got to get out now. And we kind of got thrown out. Very L.A., right? Very L.A. It's kind of the same thing. When I got to L.A., I slept on this floor of these guys and that Chuck knew and he's like, yeah, just sleep here.

And I was like, okay. And I don't know how I fell asleep. I was so excited. And they robbed me first night. So I didn't, I thought I was assuming the best. Yeah, first night they robbed me. So I was like, you robbed your guitar? No, just the money I had.

She was sleeping with your guitar. Yeah, yeah, just the money I had. Oh, God, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and we laugh now, but yeah, you can laugh at it's terrible. It's terrible. Yeah, it was, and I knew one other person and luckily, you know, I, I, uh, got to live there. His name was Nikki Six. No, yeah, right?

Oh, my God. I didn't know all that stuff. So somebody, I assume you love him still, Rudy Sarzo. Love Rudy Sarzo. Love Rudy Sarzo. How amazing is Rudy Sarzo? So you come in, somehow you end up in a band briefly with Rudy called Sun King, right? Yeah.

So I'm playing. I didn't know about Sun King. Yeah, I don't really, it's so weird, I don't really talk about like a lot of this stuff. See, I love this stuff because. That's what I do too, but people don't ask it. Well, you know, they want to ask about, you know, what's it like being on the road and private plane. I'm like, no. No. Tell me how you got from there to there.

And that's why I love. Because you and I know that's an impossible journey. It's so hard. Which is why we kind of sit here and go, okay, it worked. I'll take it. But those weird, like you're sleeping on the floor. You know, you ain't sitting like, what, that would have been playing at the stadium with the crew? You're like, oh, my God, I can't eat. Yeah, literally. Yeah. So I'm living at the Hollywood billiards that was on Hollywood and Western and no bathroom, no food, no anything. And we actually had to put nails outside of our door so they wouldn't kick it in

because there was all these gang members and stuff, which was a pretty good idea. But then we had this gig and... But there's a gig. Yeah, but then there was a gig at Gazzaris and Betsy Browning. Is Gazzari still alive at this point? Yeah. So you got that whole experience.

It was Gazzari. Keep going, keep going. Yeah. And so Betsy Browning, Rudy was... putting a band together, and he was in White Snake at the time. And I was like, oh my God, Rudy Sarles was coming to the gig. It's like this Rudy Sarin? Yeah, it was like, you know, Paul McCartney coming to the show or something.

Yeah. There was the sweetest, most beautiful, best, talented, sweetest person you could ever meet, you know. Talk about an angel. Oh, incredible, just an incredible person. So I am so excited. We're like, oh, my God, Rudy Sarzo is here. It's him and his wife and a couple waitresses. No exaggeration.

So one of those LA nights. Yeah. Okay, we gotta go out there. All right. So we open up like this like thing without the little instrumental piece, not anything, just like chords and stuff. And then the singer comes down and he bumps his head on like something because it's real dark. He bumps his head and we're playing.

And the singer goes. goes like this and there's blood coming down his head. And he goes, the singer just goes, guitar solo. And then I just playing this guitar solo because he's like fixing himself up. Rudy's like, this is the best show I've ever seen. This is incredible. And so that night. The stuff of dreams.

That night, he took me to Denny's. And it was like 2.30 in the morning. He's like, I'm putting- Is this the Denny's like down on Gower? On Sunset. Right. And rock and roll denies, you know, like the... Yeah, I know.

Yeah. So it was like, like, I was like, oh my God, you know. I can eat and I'm hanging out with Rudy Sarza. Yeah. Because I'm going to put this band together. Yeah. I'm going to put this band together and our manager is going to be Trudy Green. Right.

You know, Trudy Green. I do. Rolling Stones, all this stuff. I was like, oh my God. So I literally got in my car and I was like, I made it. Yeah. And Rudy really is the reason where, you know, that I met a lot of people.

I did a lot of sessions with John Whitten, Wilson Phillips, like all these people, like all these people. He introduced me to so many people. And it was just an incredible experience. He taught me so much and took me under his wing. And it was just incredible. and just the sweetest person. I mean, talk, again, what an angel to run into because he's just the best, you know.

Like I asked him when we did the Ozzy gig, the last Oz gig, we were talking a bit about him being on tour during the blizzard of Oz days and all those. And, you know, I said, what were we doing while all that mayhem was going on around? You said I was in my bunk reading my Bible. Yeah. You know, he's that guy.

He's just that guy. you know. He's that guy. Also, I saw that you end up becoming friends and working with Bob Marlett. I know Bob a little bit. I worked with him on a Tony Iommi solo record. Bob's an interesting guy, right? He kind of, he found that niche in there where it's like, as the music business was kind of dissipating, it's like you need a guy like Bart Marlett to actually bring projects together. And was he feeding you work or kind of helping you out or kind of explain that relationship a little bit?

I met Bob through Rudy, and because Bob and Rudy were playing, and, like, you know, knew each other in the late 70s. And Bob is another one. I owe everything to. He introduced me to so many people. Like, and he just really taught me a lot about recording and doing sessions, because I loved doing sessions. I loved it.

What kind of session work were you doing? Anything. Any game. Baywatch, Flipper, Salt and Peppa. I love it. Everything. Anybody that needed a guitar player, I would just do it. And I can read.

And so I would just go in and do the stuff. But I would do it for half the price of anyone else. Like way less than anybody else. Was it an economy? Just I need to work or are you just happy to do the sessions? I just thought to myself, I don't know how smart I was, but I was like, well, I'm going to do it for half the price of everyone else. and at twice a speed just to get it done.

I see. And then I started, hey, there's a rep, yeah. Yeah, there's this dumb kid that'll do it for like a few bucks, you know. And so I just started getting all these, all this work from Bob, and he was incredible, just incredible, but he introduced me to Rob Palford. Right. And this is the, the Resner. Yes, yeah.

Yeah, and he said, go, you know, Rob wants to me. and go out to Phoenix. And I'm not a great flyer. And I always take these Reese's peanut butter cups with me and put him in my pocket. And I get to Rob's, and I'm all nervous, and we're talking about my... You're on his white couch. Yeah, I'm on his white couch.

Do you know this story? No, I just made it up, but I'm guessing. He's got this white couch, and I sit on there, and I'm like... I just imagine Rob having a lot of white furniture. And just like I am right now talking to him. And I'm like, oh my God, thinking to myself, oh my God. So he goes, you want something to drink? And I said, absolutely.

So he gets up and I get up like this and take the cushion and there's chocolate and flip it around and I'm just walking around. Just like if I was walking around here, you'd be like, what's the matter with this guy? And years later, I told him. And he goes, I, Johnny, I really, I thought it was the cat. I thought the cat just went in there or something like that. But it's a true story. But yeah, this all comes from Bob Marlett and just, you know, we did so much great work together.

And just still recently, we did Skinner together and all this great stuff. Nice to work with Bob, man. Yeah, well, not lately because like Motley and all this stuff, but a little bit here and there, absolutely. I love them, dearly. You end up playing with Lita Ford opening for Kiss. I mean, back to Kiss for a second. That's got to be a pinch me moment.

Now, this is Kiss before the full makeup reunion. Oh, absolutely. So where was Kiss at 94? Kiss, I'm gonna say this is maybe hot in the shade. Okay. You know, or maybe a little later, maybe revenge. Is this Bruce Kulukon guitar? Yeah, who's great, who I love.

I used to hang out a lot with Bruce back in the day, and always lovely guy. Wonderful, talented. So I was doing a session for Lita, And she said, you know, do you want to come do some live shows? And I was like, I'm, you know, I like to travel. I'm opening for kids. I don't like to travel.

And she goes, oh, we're going to open for Kiss in, and like, San Antonio. And I was like, okay, I'll be there. I'll be there. I'll be there. So I'm on the plane and I have this footage, like the camcorder that's like one of those, you know, so big, you know. And they're on the plane, but like regular seats. I don't even think they were in first class because I can see them. And I was like, and I would like...

This is the hard years. This is before the man came back together. And I would film them walking to the bathroom. I had this. And I, and I filmed like the road cases. And it was so rad. It was so fun. That'd be a fun present sometime. You put that together for the boys and say, this is when I was stalking you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so. Why? Yeah, yeah. Oh, he loves it. So this is a Jimmy Chamberlain, Jimmy the drummer. I love Jimmy. God, I love Jimmy. He's very jollied, but Jimmy calls him Giggers.

So Jimmy hates Giggers, right? And Jimmy's estimation of a Gigger is the guy around L.A. Never quite gets traction, waiting for the call. You know what I mean? So I'm not saying you were a gigger, you might quantify yourself as that. You know, Jimmy's best friend is Billy Moeller. I'm sure you know Billy. Do you know Billy from...

Of course, sure. And Billy in his own way would loosely be quantified as a gigger, but he's obviously past that. But I guess I'm just trying to make you laugh. But I mean, at some point, do you worry that you're just going to become kind of one of those guys? Does it make sense the way I'm asking it? Yeah. I mean, we know how the story ends, so it's laughable now.

Of course. time do you worry i'm just going to be coming one of these guys where it's like because you i was like and i love katie lang yeah i mean we used to work with her a music collaborator band i can't think it was name right now he played on one of her records really lovely and she's lovely too but like and she's an amazing singer and you like you said you love country music yeah but you know you're now you're playing with katy lang you're over here you know you can get that rep in town where you're like you're the guy they call but you're not the guy you ever ends up in the band right right right you know i when I was younger, just like a lot of other people, musicians,

they always dream of this, this is what they want to do, and this is what they want to do. I never dreamt like that. I never thought, never. You never had a kind of aspirational vision? I had one of being a session musician. Really? And I was like, God, that would be a dream.

That's why I would study so much of reading and all. this stuff. Was there somebody in your mind that you, you know, because we know about the wrecking crew. Was it like a wrecking crew vision? You know what it is? It's so funny. I wish I had a cooler story, but there was this show in the 70s called Session Man. And I had a terrible, terrible flight when I was a kid. We would always go to Palm Springs. And it was just one of those 70s horrible flights. And I was throwing up. And it was just, and it was just, just horrible and I said to myself I never want to fly again so I saw a session man and what they would do is they could just go to these studios and play and make a

living was this a docu series or was this like a little story you can find it on YouTube it's really interesting it's like this guy just trying to make it as a session like a TV show yeah it was like a TV show yeah it's it's worth a Google and and I thought to myself that's what I want to do okay And at a very young age. So when you're doing all this, it's not, you're not thinking you're going backwards. You actually think, no, this is what I...

This is exactly what I want to do. That also explains it. Yeah. So I never thought, I would never think of myself, like people knowing my name or wanting to picture or playing in front of all these people. It explains something about you because, like, again, from an outside point of view,

and this is before I knew you a little bit personally, you know, usually someone in your position, They're looking to, it's the Inve-thing. They're looking to find, it's either going to be about them or they're going to end up with the right gig. Right. So you're odd in that because you're not actually looking for that because everybody else is.

Yeah. So you just assume it, whether you're just true or not. That makes sense. Did you feel people putting that on you too? Like, shouldn't you be more or something, something? Yeah, yeah, of course. And I just, I still feel like I'm going to wake up and go, oh my God, I had this dream.

I was in Molly crew. Well, we'll get to that dream slash nightmare in a moment. Weird crazy life that's been. And, you know, like, it's just, I just want to be a session guy. And that was it. And just have like a normal home. Yeah. Because I grew up in the big home with the maids and all that stuff.

And I had all. What was it that your parents did that you guys had money like that? My father was an investor and also insurance. of the higher up guys at All States, Good Hands People. He was like one of the fingers. You know. My dad was the fourth. Yeah, yeah.

And so it was like that. So yeah, we lived on the lake and it was wonderful. Yeah. You know, it was absolutely wonderful. It was, oh, just an incredible. It explains a lot about you though, because there's a confidence there. It's one of my questions in a bit. But you've always struck me as somebody who has a confidence.

Because as you know, and you've worked with them and some of them are mutual friends of ours, You know, most people, particularly at the alt side of the equation, come from a lot of damaged homes, broken homes, and we're all whacked out of our mind. So you've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us, you know? And I think it's comes across in the way you play even.

There's a confidence, but it's not an arrogance confidence. It's just like, I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. Right, no. I, God, I'm so, that's this why I love this show. Well, thank you. I mean, it's just, you hit it right on the head. I'm not trying to prove to anybody. I'm doing this and learning, still learning every day, like, just to just keep my mind intact, you know, because, you know, I have physical ailments from just of what happens and just horrible, crippling physical ailments from my past of the tragedy and things like that.

So when... What tragedy is that? I don't even know. The deaths of... Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. So it's... In my...

I call it trauma. That's a fair word of years. Trauma, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it was... So, these physical things, but... Did you have a physical manifestation in the trauma? Oh.

You don't have to go into it, but it was... It's... It's the worst thing you can ever imagine. So I got this thing called... I'm not... I can't believe I'm going to even say it, but I don't believe I'm going to even say it, but I I got this thing called prostititis.

Okay. Non-bacterial prostititis. And it's... It sounds like a metal band from Denmark. It does, doesn't it? It's not. Sorry, I didn't know it. But it's when your...

This is so weird. Pelvic floor squeezes your prostate so hard. I'm sorry. Try to laugh. No, it's crazy. It sounds like... And it's just from stress. You can't piss.

You can't sit. You can't. do anything. And this is a stress-related medical condition? Wow. Yeah. So you're so trauma tries stressed out that it has this physical manifestation. Yeah, that's why I was going to therapy and all this stuff. So it's the most crippling thing. I remember I was, I'm just going to spill it all. I was doing this show with Slash and Ozzy and all these people and we were going to Norway. And I was bedridden for months with this. Because you can't sit. The only thing you could do had you been diagnosed? Yes. So you knew what it was and they don't, I mean, sorry to ask for the simple.

Like, what do they tell you what to do? Therapy, muscle relaxers, Xanax, but I, you know, I don't have drug taker. But I'm not a drug taker. So that's when I, you know, I started really, honing in on this stuff, but I was on this plane with Ron Wood and Ozzy and all this stuff, and I was sit kind of like on my back, so I wasn't sitting like... On the area? On the area. And I would act like I was sleeping, and it was just horrible, but I just... But luckily, you know, you just get through it, and it's just from all the trauma.

It's just all the... Good, goodness gracious. But yeah, it's... I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, it's nuts. But, you know, it's, that's where it all comes from, you know. Well, you've hit it well because, I mean, you see with a lot of us, you mean, you seem like one of the same ones, and there aren't many. Yeah.

And you played with a lot of crazy people. But that's the confidence, like you were saying. What I do every day doesn't matter. Like, I was in zombie for 17 years. I would go over the set every day. Play it. Playing. The same set we've been doing for 17 years every day.

Is that relax your? your mind is this sort of meditated interesting yeah same thing with you know motley or manson or anything every day every day every day i did it before i came here i woke up extra early and did my instrumental set and then the motley set yeah wow is it just because it allows you to kind of safe place is it interesting that's exactly it well let's talk about the safe place of david lee roth Diamond Dave. Diamond Dave. Let's start here.

I love Diamond Dave. We all do. I'm not looking for any gossip on Diamond Dave. But as a gunslinger guitarist, I'm definitely on the sloppier end of that scale, but... No. Playing... Thank you.

But... And I had the same conversation with Steve I. I mean, stepping into the shadow of Eddie Van Halen is... You know what I mean? That's an interesting. It's one thing to think, I'm in the Van Halen cover bed, I can do it. It's one thing to sit there and play Van Halen one in front of a cassette deck. It's another thing to stand up in front of those fans with that guy

and have everybody dissecting every guy to know what you're playing. There's a lot of great stories. Pick one. I will tell you, even from the very, very, very beginning, I was sitting on my friend's couch and I saw the book Crazy from the Heat. And I thought to myself, I wonder what Dave's doing. Because it was after the whole Vegas debacle. And I was like, he was on a lot on Warner Brothers, I think, trying to get a movie made, right?

Wasn't that cool? Yeah, like weird. But he wasn't really, it was pretty quiet. Okay. And there was an address on the back, and I called and wrote a letter or something. I said, hey, I'd like to send some music. Yeah. And Ed Anderson answered the phone, who was Van Halen's bodyguard from all the great.

Sorry, no other name, yeah. Yeah. And so I went to Bob Marlitz and recorded three songs and sent him, and they were like, oh, we really like these songs. Can you give us three more? And I'm like, oh, God. You know, I got to beg Bob for, like, more studio time. Yeah.

So I gave him three more. Oh, we really like these. Was it, are they Van Halen? Yes. Are they, okay. Absolutely. Okay. So they said, oh, we like these.

can you use three more and I said unfortunately I can't I'm so sorry you know I this is after game of six after a six for three more yeah I said I hadn't I have no that's a good much you know and I get a call back oh Dave wants to meet you come to his house and I was like what you know so this is where you're where you're where you're a you're where you're a guy like this is like the Thomas guide you know so I didn't know I got the address and I drove there after I got on the phone to make sure I knew where I was going. Yeah. And I had my, like, terrible, terrible Toyota Tersel. And, you know, I got there and, and I just found my way and I got there a little bit early and rang the buzzer,

hello, you know, and it's that voice. And he goes, John, great to meet you. We're going to make a record. We're going to make it just like Van Halen did. We're going to do it live in the studio. And I was like, Is this the classic one where he had to do a bunch of acoustic stuff and there was no click or something? No, this is the electric, it's DLR band, slam dunk and all this stuff. I was like, oh my God. And he goes, all right, we're going to go Monday. We're going to go to Ocean Way and it's going to be 12 noon.

And I said, Mr. Roth, I have a rehearsal with Rob Halford and, you know, and he goes, well, I don't want you after rehearsal. I want you fresh. So we're going to start at 6 a.m. And I was like, okay. So I'm like freaking out. And I remember we're in the studio, Ray Luzier's playing drums.

Yeah. And Bourbon Bob is playing bass, and that's me because, you know, it was just, yeah. He said right before we started, no joke. He goes, if you can't do it in two takes, you can't do it. Roll it. and that's what you hear on that record. Wow.

It's just, yeah, two takes, yeah. And it was incredible. I think that's the first time I heard you and realized it was you playing because I bought that record. Yeah. Because I heard something, I thought, well, this is interesting. Because somehow you brought a fresh take to the thing. Does it make sense?

It's like, it's kind of what you would expect, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pyro-technic, but at the same time, I was like, okay, this guy isn't trying to do his Eddie Van Halen imitation. He's got his own thing. So it did stick out that way. Right. And it was so magical, but you have one of those CDs.

Now, Dave did all that himself with this guy, Kieran, because this was on his own record label. Yeah, because it had like some weird early Photoshop. Betty Page. Oh, yeah, I was like, what is this? Yeah, and Dave did that. I have one somewhere in my attic. He pressed him. I had no idea.

Yeah, he did all those. And I thought that was really smart. And this was when record companies were still record. Oh, yes. And they were not happy that artists were being independent. Right. It was the whole prince. And he played one of the very first ones.

But I'll fast forward to the acoustic record. This is a great story. We were in the studio playing these songs and loving it and having such a great time. And I was going on the road. I forget with somebody. And Dave's like, this is great, sounds awesome. And when you're gone, we're going to have Greg Bissonnet come in, and he's going to play drums, and maybe we'll get tuggled to do some keyboards.

And I was like, great, Dave, you know, let me know how it goes. And the engineer goes, well, wait a minute, we can't put drums on this. There's no click. Yeah. He's like, what do you mean? And I'm putting my guitars in the car. He comes running out, and he goes, I've never said this before. He goes, John, I'm going to ask you for a favor.

And, you know, a real favor, can you redo this whole record with a click? And it's late. And I have to catch a plane in the morning. He goes, I'll pay you, you know, like this much money. And I said, Dave, I'm not going to take your money. I'll do it. And there's all these overdubs and all this stuff. And I did it for him.

I redid the whole record in like a day for him, you know, just because, you know, that's our guy, you know? Yeah, it reminds me of, um, when Sid Barrett, sadly was going insane and had left Pink Floyd, Gilmore, who had been his friend, and the other guys, Floyd were still supportive, and he was technically signed to Harvest, which was their label. They made those Sid Barrett records.

I don't know if you ever heard him. Well, the only way they could record, was Sid would go in and record live with all those weird stops and starts and timings, and then they'd have to figure out how to go back in and build a band around the tracks. And David Gilmore told me, he said it was a nightmare because it's like, you know, it's like, how do you follow that weird timing? It would seem impossible. But it was like the labor, it was.

But it was this labor of love where they so badly wanted to support him. But it was one of those things. Like, how do you, how do you over dumb drums out of an acoustic? played live with singing, you know? Like, do you think they cut it up a little bit? Do you think? They must have done. I bet they did anything they could think of.

It's so interesting. I never knew that. If you go back and listen to those records, I know if you've ever heard them. They're really beautiful. Yeah, I have. They're nice. So those were all posthumously added music.

So odd. I think in some cases they played live with them, but I think what, I can't remember of stuff that David Gilmore told me privately or stuff I've seen in interviews, but basically it got to the point where, he couldn't play the same thing twice. So even if they rehearsed up a take, like, okay, you play the drums, I got the bass, he would play it differently the next time.

Interesting. So the only way they could track to it was let him do whatever number of takes, edit those together, and then try to add instrumentation to it as he kind of slid into total madness. Jeez, that's... That's intense, yeah. That's intense.

So not quite that, but I get, I get why that's an impossible task. Yeah. Let's just talk one more beat about Roth. So now you're out there in front of those audiences. You're playing his solo stuff, Van Halen classics. How was your response from that crowd? How did you...

Were they nice? Were they respectful? Were they thought you were insane? Here's the thing. Dave said, come over. Come over to the house. It's so straight. You just had to like...

because it's diana. laugh about this, but he goes, come over to sit house, we're going to practice some moves. Like, you're going to like crotch down. I'm going to kick over you. And I was like,

like in the Panama video and he's like, exactly. And I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever. And then I feel bad about this. It's even kind of hard to talk about. And I get a call from Maryland Manson camp. Yeah.

And then I couldn't go do the live shows with Roth. Satan called. Yeah, Satan called. But I couldn't do the live show. Yeah. Oh, you didn't end up touring. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, because I joined Manson.

And I loved Manson. Loved, loved, loved. During Katie Lang, like, before we go on stage, I mean, listen to Hate Anthem and, you know. Yeah. Was Dave mad at you? He was, he understood. And I remember I...

He's a smart guy. He's very smart. But he was very supportive and he's very, he was, he's very kind. Like when the David Lee Roth, you know, and just it's Dave, you know, and it's just like he's very rational, smart, smart, smart person. I remember calling Gene and I'm, you know, you know, Gene. And I said, Jean, what should I do? should I join Manson or stay with Roth? And he goes, join Manson.

And, um... Yeah, because Manson was still very much on the upswing. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was mechanical animals just coming out. Yeah. And that's what I did. And I felt bad, you know. But me and Dave are still great friends today. We've worked many, many, many years.

That's cool, I think he was supportive of you, because, again, he's smart enough to know, okay, this is a good thing for this guy. Yeah, he was, he's always been so kind, and we wrote, a really nice tribute to Eddie. Okay. It's called Nothing Could Have Stop This Back Then. And it's a song about Van Halen.

Yeah. And please, Billy, just look up the video, and it's just so touching. It's just Van Halen clips of, and it just tells the story of how they were together. Yeah. It's incredible, but I love Dave. It's incredible person.

Yeah, it's a shame because maybe time will solve all these things because you know, you still have the books coming out and, you know, won't be long. All this other Van Halen material is going to come out on the market. But like all great bands, you know, there's 80 different stories that need to be told. But at the end of the day, and we go back to what we were talking about before with Even Kiss,

he set aside all the stories, all the bull, all the egos, all the cocaine. It's like if the music wasn't awesome, nobody would give it. And Van Halen, when those four were together and I, did you ever get to see that lineup together? Of course. What tours did you see? 84.

That's when I saw him. We probably saw him two days of heart. Of course. Because they either were going from Chicago, Detroit, or Troy to Chicago. Absolutely. Incredible. Unbelievable.

It's something. Electric at a level that's almost hard to quantify it. It's like describing the color blue. You can't do it. Exactly. It's, I believe, The Beatles, you know, I can't even put other bands. Let's say the Beatles and then Van Halen,

it's when those four guys are together. It was so magical. Eddie was such a brilliant, brilliant genius. His rhythm playing, his- If he never played Leeds, just his rhythm player. Some of the greatest rhythm players of all time. And I mean, we're talking all the way through jazz guys, everybody.

Like, like, it was so different than any other guitar player, his rhythm playing. It was so percussive, of course, you know, and being a drummer. But it was, he was so incredible and an innovator and a great, unbelievable lead player. And on top of that, an unbelievable songwriter. And good looking and funny. and all of it. Couldn't we just put a bubble around him and just say, okay, world just...

But that's the beauty of seeing them in 84. It was like that last flash, obviously they did more touring later, but that last flash, prime of youth, the relationships were still somewhat intact. How was the vibe the night you saw him? Because I saw him from the side, as I was up in the balcony at what was called Rosemont Horizon back in the day.

near the airport. And so I could see from the side of the stage down, you know, obviously seeing the band, but then I could see Eddie's little guitar world behind. So when Ed would leave the stage to go have a smoke and talk to his tech, I could see into his little tech world. And Roth was doing these five-minute, seven-minute soliloquies, jokes, whatever his, that Schmaltese was into at the time.

And Eddie would just sit, I could see him shaking his head getting pissed off. And when I met Eddie for the first time, and I interviewed him for a guitar world. I asked him about that. And he was like, man, I just got so sick of him just talking and I got, would get so mad because I just wanted to play. So I just, I learned to just leave the stage, let him have his stick, and then when it was done, I'd come.

So they only played like nine songs. It was very short, but God, when they played, holy moly. There's, there's, really, there's, well, how was the vibe when you saw him? Incredible. Because they were all, because I felt like I saw him on a bad mood night. Oh, no. In Detroit, I was, I couldn't believe it. It was unbelievable.

And I think it was the MTV lost weekend because that happened in Detroit. Yeah. And it was, I mean, it was magical. I'll never forget it. My very first concert was Iggy Pop Santana and the Rolling Stones in 1981. Okay. And that was, you know, a big stadium. but nothing will compare it to that 1984 show.

It was just unbelievable. Okay, so speaking to Satan, were you around Manson before you end up in that world? Were you around them at all? It's a great question. I heard they needed a guitar player after Daisy. But I'm saying had you hung out socially with them? No.

Okay, see, the reason I bring this up is because we were making Almodore. Great record. Oh, thank you. No, no, no. Unbelievable record. So we were going up to that house they were all living in. Oh, yeah.

So that's why I ended up doing some of the ghostwriting on that record and giving them advice on how to do certain things. So I was saw the whole mechanical animal things playing out in real time. And it was wild. And it was wild. It was wild. It was wild. but I love them so much.

They did have a great camaraderie during that time. It kind of all went later, you know what I mean, including like one of them saying weird about me, like, and I never had a problem with the person. It was like a camp that was, oh, I got great stories with that. There's reason for that stuff. Okay. And it's so strange.

But, like, okay, so I guess I don't even know where to start, but I'll start from where I was playing with Halford. Yeah. And I wanted to see Manson so bad, and he didn't play because something happened, and I was so bummed I didn't get to see them live. And I always missed it. You know, I was doing Conan O'Brien. I ran down to Roseland to watch them, and their show got, like, ended like an hour earlier.

I never got a chance to see him. It was wild times. Yeah. And so I get a call from coming home from Europe. oh, Manson wants to meet you because of the whole Trent Resner Nothing Records, Rob Halford thing. Okay, that makes sense.

And so I got in the band and this is like what you said before. I was at Tony Seula's party, birthday party. They much agree with Tony Seula. Yeah, and I was there and I was like, you know, and all the guys are there and Mansa was like really nice and all the guys were really nice. And I liked Pogo.

I thought Pogo looked really. cool and crazy. And I had like, I really thought Pogo was cool. And I was like, hey Pogo at Tony's party, wouldn't say anything. I thought, maybe didn't hear me. Maybe didn't hear me. Hey, Bogo, how's it going? Nothing.

And I was like, and it's just me and him. I go, I'm going to try one more time. I'm saying to myself, hey Pogo, how you doing today? He goes, I'm not going to say hi to you. You're only going to be in the band for six months. and I was like, it's just like what you were saying. Like, not Manson, but the other guys were so mean to me. And I just wanted nothing but for them to succeed.

I played everything just, I was first one there, last to leave, played, you know, and I remember at rehearsal. It's funny, I never told these stories. I was at rehearsal and we were doing that great big white world that song and Pogo was trying to remember the keyboard part and I go oh it's like this Pogo you know but not like I kind of went aside and just showed him and he went he got so mad at me I was like and then Manson came in and was like they were arguing they were arguing like I've never seen two people argue in my life still to this day and I thought oh the band's over oh that's just

another that was a Tuesday that was just another day And I had no idea. Yeah. But they were, but not Manson. Manson was always, you know, really good and kind to me. But the other guys were so mean. Ginger was nice, but like, and I was like, I wonder why, you know? But it was so weird.

Like when you said that, it brought back that memory. I still know. I mean, like I said, I just was curious if you were around that camp before you ended up playing with them because, you know, I was watching it happen in real time. and of course the separation, you know, Manson starts to become a much bigger star and there was resentment. This classic band stuff. Did you, I guess the gestation of the question is, and it goes back somewhat to what you talk about being a studio musician in your mind. In this situation now you're helping write music, a lot of strong music.

You know, the guitar obviously is very featured in that group. Did you feel in those four or five? years that you were there, that you were part of it, or do you feel, or do you feel one foot in, one foot out? Does it make sense? I felt a part of it from Manson. And I had such a respect for Twiggy. I thought he was super talented.

He's crazy talent. Crazy talented, great songwriter. And he was, like, weird with me in the beginning. But then, like, he knew I was there for, as a whole. Yeah. And then he started to open up a little bit, and we worked together and we worked really well together, I believe. We wrote some great music.

I felt like I was in the mix. I felt good. I felt strong. And, but this is where it got really strange. Golden Age Rotest Store. Everything's going good. Everything's going great. And all of a sudden, I was getting these weird things.

Like, they were like, oh, you messed up in this song. And I was like, I don't really remember that. But, okay, and then it happened again. And I told our sound man, Brad Maddox, I said, Brad, can you record the show? And he recorded the show, Dad Tapes back then. and they said oh you messed up in this part and I go no no yeah you did me you messed up and I played it and I go no it's right here and they got so mad so one of the members were

was trying to get me out yeah and um then uh you know I just thought everything was so good like I mean the band was super tight great and you know yeah I got let go and so I was like I was I was surprised at it. Yeah. Well, I got, I got, I got, I got, I got befriended at some point. So I, I experienced it sort of more on the social end, but I, I watched

that happen to others where it would just like, the machine would just get kind of cleaved off, and so that's why I was asking, because, you know, you seem to take great possession of it, and the band was benefited from that, you know, bands like that, you don't want giggers, you know, it really has to feel like people.

Yeah, and I, I do. I wanted to stay as long as I could stay. But you know, what was really incredible is that Manson gave me a call and he apologized. And I just thought that was so kind. And he's, you know, he's so sorry, you know, I knew you were just wanted the best for the band and all that stuff. And I just thought that was really very nice of him. But I wanted to stay as long, I mean, I stayed in Rob Zondry for seven years, you know. I want some places just hang my hat.

Yeah. You know? Is that, because, I mean, if you, if you, if you look at the personalities, uh, will include Lita Ford in this, Lita Ford, David Lee Roth, Manson, Rob Zombie, um, you know, in all, in, in those cases, it's like, you know, some charismatic person, it's like their brand. And then, you know, that you need this, this other person to bring some spark and fire. It's just up until you working with Motley crew, it always felt like, at least from a public point of view, that you never quite found it,

and maybe that's just because it's observational. Like in the five years that you were with Manson or whatever, you were in it, you said you were in it. But from my view of view, it goes by fast. It does. Don't blink. Yeah, right. So I was just curious how you felt in that. Did it feel mercenary?

did it feel something to get, I don't know, it's because it's hard for me because I'm always at the center of it. And the reason I'm asking is, it has a certain sensitivity because through the years working with different people, they'll kind of, kind of sometimes give me this vibe that I'm somehow responsible for their discomfort, and I'm not saying you experienced that, but they'll put that on me, and I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? I mean, on me, I figured out how to do this.

I write my own songs. I don't necessarily need a lot of help, but it doesn't mean I don't want you here. But it's like they almost want to be to bridge something I can't bridge. Does it make sense? Oh, absolutely. I mean, you write your songs, you write your music,

your melody, your lyrics, but you want people behind you to support what you're doing. Well, even I'm a lot more open to contribution than people would think. I mean, Jimmy. Well, that's... Come on. That one fell out of the sky. It's like... I saw a clip today of Taylor Hawkins' son playing our song Silverfuck Live somewhere in Europe.

Just playing these, and I was there. I mean, you know, 1992. And I started playing those crazy beats. I was like, I'll take that, you know. But Manson was always nice to me. Yeah. You know, he was always nice to me. So I was crushed, you know, when I got fired.

and... They gave you... I don't know, maybe it's his cruel sense of humor. Did he say anything in particular? It was a Tony that gave you the acts. It was Tony, you know, and he just said, oh, he just wants to write with other people. And I was like, okay, but...

To be fair, and I'm not defending him. To be fair, because I had a conversation with him in 1998 about this very subject, because I was around the mechanical animal stuff. I tried to explain to him because he's not a very musical person. You know, he's very conceptual in his artistic thinking, but he's not a musician, maybe the better way to do it. You know, I mean, like you and I could sit, even if we've never written together, and we could write a song because we speak a common language. And I tried to explain him that, you know, he was going to forever be dependent on whoever was in the room

with him because he couldn't write his own tunes. And he saw that as a form of freedom. And I said, no, you're going to ultimately find this a form of enslavement. And I wasn't telling him to get task scam and learn to write his own songs. But I said the source of your frustration is never going to go away. So you need to have a better sense of your collaborators and understand why they're valuable because you think you can trade them in and out, but you're not going to find that that easy. Like Roth and Eddie?

Yeah, or even Roth and, I mean, not even Eddie and Hagar. Yeah. You know, when I interviewed Eddie in 98 for Guitar World, guitar world. That was, Sammy had left maybe within the last six to nine months, and there was a ton of acrimony in there. And Eddie was going on at length. Oh, absolutely. None of that got printed, of course, and that's fine.

But I got the firsthand blasts of how he felt, but it's the same thing, right? You know, Rick Nielsen about Robin Zander, and it's like, you've got one of, you know, you got one of the greatest vocalists, if not the greatest vocalist of all time. Absolutely. Rick O'Kasik complaining to me about Ben O'R in the cars. Really? Oh, yeah.

Because I worked with Rick around the same late 90s. It's this frustration of needing other people. But to me, I sort of, I'm not making it about me, but I'm saying I sort of crossed that bridge a long time ago, that I was gonna need people. I was okay with being self-content. and I would be like, okay, well, I need a drummer. You know what I mean?

But in the case of somebody like Manson, I also saw where he had a hard time understanding that you can't just dream your crazy dystopia into reality. You need people to actually implement into real things. And I remember having a very specific conversation about Alice Cooper's band. And I love Alice Cooper. Of course.

But here we're, you know, when the time we're taping this, the Alice Cooper band just put out their first album together in like 50 years. And if you're an Alice Cooper fan like I am, and he made a lot of great music after the band, but that original band had something that's a one-of-a-kind thing. And same thing with Manson, when that original band dissipated, including whoever doesn't like me in that band,

something got lost because Manson became the name, Marilyn Manson. But I was standing there actually saying, this is a lot more valuable than you think it is, because it just doesn't happen the way you think it happens. And we communicated, like, musically in the studio, we really had a connection and writing like, you know, disposable teens and the nobodies and fight song and this is the new show. I still hear that stuff.

That's how you know it's working, right? It's still there. And we did it like this. And it was like we really had an incredible connection writing-wise. It was great. Okay. Last bit. Everything's just swimming along.

Motley crew. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Right? It's so weird to even say. Yeah. Well, here you are. Yeah, it's so strange.

So, 2022, I wrote, this is my own quote. I'm going to quote myself. And I wrote this in my notes, but I had to quote myself. This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus. That's great. That's a bumper sticker that I should have on my car. Because there was a time, I still am very fond of Nicky,

but there was a time where we were kind of friendish and spoke to him a lot in that period. And I've worked with Tommy and I've known Tommy for years. Yeah, we just, sorry to interrupt, we just went to Oasis and I said, oh, I'm going to see Billy. And he didn't have, he just was saying so many great things about you.

He loves you. Oh, sweet. He loves you. I love Tommy, too. So I feel like I have a really good grasp on the gig because I know two of the principles pretty well. You know, I've spoken for hours and hours and hours with Nikki about songwriting and music, and I work with Tommy.

And a fantastic musician, you know, just natural talent. In fact, they speak in Alice Cooper. I was thinking of something to tell you today. I was in the studio working with Tommy on this album of Mind, from 2014. And I wanted to play a certain thing. And I go, you know, it's like that song by Alice Cooper 18. And he goes, very Tommy with the sticks.

He's like, bro, don't really know that one. I go, Tommy, how the fuck do you not know? I'm 18 by Alice Cooper. He goes, I just didn't really listen to that. But only Tommy could say that with a straight face. And you're like, really? How do you not know that song? You say, just, I'm, and so because I'm thinking, you know,

And he's like, I guess it was into something else. And I'm like, I know exactly what you were into. It wasn't the radio, right? So just walk me through the basics of them coming to you. Because I know you had a somewhat of a relation, musical relationship with Nikki that went back before. How much did you know them personally? I mean, I was so close with Nikki.

Like, I mean, so close. We talk like 10 times a day and just like what, just chit-chat. And for years and years, decades, you know, like, and I knew Tommy. I played on some of his stuff. And I was kind of always in the mix, you know, and I, you know, knew Mick really well, talked to him. They were just my friends, you know. And there was not one time where there was ever talk.

Like, oh, you should never, not once. We would just go to the mall. Just buddies, yeah. Yeah, go ride our bikes and, you know, go to Neiman Marcus and trying funny clothes and stuff, you know. Spangled jeans. So it was, it's just like playing with your buddies, you know. It's very, it's very strange how it all came.

Do I, am I correct in assuming that they figured out it was you before they called you and they never auditioned anybody? Yeah, no, it's like, I mean, I'm around those guys so much playing guitar, and I've been playing these songs since I was, since the records came out. Such great. When they gave me the set list, they were like,

all right, learn these. I'm like, I know all these. I know these, like I could go play a show tennis. Such great guitar playing. It's such a cool, great guitar playing. One of a kind guitar player. I just love his playing. I love him, absolutely love him.

And it's just, I don't change a note Yeah. I don't change. Why would you? Why would you? It's just like taking a piece of classical music and going, that doesn't work. Yeah.

You play exactly how it was recorded. Now, I love it so much that I will play exactly how it's recorded, not how it was played live, but because I would go see bands when I was little, and I would love these certain guitar licks or certain drum fills, and they wouldn't do it. But when I saw like rush on the signal store, it was exactly how it was. And that's how I'd like to do it. Yeah.

Because people have grown up with these songs, including myself, and they want to hear it just like how it was on the record. It's perfect. Why would you change it? Why would you change it? It's perfect. Because I was listening to the, what's the hell with the pentagram on the cover?

Shot the Devil. I mean, I was listening to everything. It's like, it's like a perfect record. It's like, I wouldn't change it. It wouldn't change anything. No. All of it. It's like, it's really is a perfect record.

And the videos, you know, the videos were on MTV, every other video, you know? And it's, it's weird. Like when I'm on stage with them, and we're playing these big places and I see Vince like singing Home Sweet Home and I see Nikki or Intentone, I'm like, what is, this is weird, you know? It feels like it's like in Hot Tub Time Machine where the guy like, imagine himself and Molly crew. It's like that, you know? Yeah. Well, I think it's a credit to how they, how they view you as a person. I mean, it's, I'm not saying it's not about music because you got to be able to do the gig, but when I saw that you got the gig, I totally understood why they wanted to work with you

because it's a weird spot, right? You got a guy who's obviously, uh, mix, you know, his physical situation is well documented. Um, and it's, it's one of the, those great, weird, rock things. It's, you know, it's sad because as a fan, you want to see the band. So when they picked you, it made total sense. It's like, here's somebody we can trust, somebody who's going to do it right, so we don't have to worry about this person, especially with everything they've been through. It makes sense to me.

So I'm glad, at least my sense of it is that it's a happy gig for you. It's a great gig. It's a great gig. Because they know I love them and I love the music and that's how, you know, you know, I go to rehearsal and do a gig every day. I just treat it with such respect. Okay, two things, because we don't need to belabor it. I got to say now, because I'm a guitar whore.

Yes. The telly. Yeah. I'm like, uh, I know. I know you like your telly, but I'm like, I know, I know. I'm not asking you to defend it. No, no. But did you ever consider going, like, uh...

It's like... I'm really putting you on. I don't do gossip on my show, but this is like, this is a, this tough a question as I ask. It's like, you know when you're coming into your own and you're like a certain kind of woman, you're like either like boobs or a butt or something like that. And that's how I was with the telly. So it's Don Rich's fault.

Yeah, it's totally Don Rich's fault. It is totally Don Rich's fault. It's just something in my brain went boing and I loved it. Yeah. I just loved it. And, you know, my first real guitar was a Stratocaster. Okay. And, like, you know, the chorus plays Stratocaster and love that Strat and made it

some of the greatest songs around that Strat. I hate Fender, but I love that Strat. Yeah. And I didn't love it. I was waiting for my telly, you know. I get it. Okay, I got it. Because Jimmy Chamberlain, actually, my first Strat,

But he came to me and he said, I got the strap. It was like a 74 bullet head strap. And I said, okay, I tried it. Like how much? He goes, $270. So I bought it. And that became the first pumpkin guitar, the one that got stolen. And I got back after 27 years stolen in Detroit.

That's right. You told that on the St. Andrews Hall. At St. Andrews Hall. In 1992, somebody walked out the back door with it. It just got it back. whatever a few years ago. You were talking about it on one of the shows, one of the episodes.

So, okay, so that becomes the sound for me. And like, I understand what you're saying. As soon as I had the guitar, I was like, this is what I've been looking for my whole life. Yeah. This is like, this is the exact feel and the thing, and I could do the Jimmy Hendricks thing, and it was like, okay, cool.

So about five years later, I'm somewhere at a bar, I'm in Chicago. This guy comes and somebody goes, he's still playing that Stratocaster. And I go, yeah. he goes, did you get it from Jimmy? And I go, yeah, yeah, he sold it to me. He goes, you know, he stole that from me.

Oh, my. He goes, Jimmy and I used to be roommates or something. And he goes, and I'm thinking like, oh, she, he's going to ask the guitar back. He goes, it's cool, you can have it. I'm glad you're playing it. He goes, how much do you charge you for it? And I go, 270 bucks. He goes, oh, that explains it.

That was the rent. So Jimmy didn't even upsell the guitar to like 300, so he gets a burger money. Brilliant. That's the greatest. He stole his friend's guitar, sold it to his bandmate, paid the rent, and then the guy, and the guy was, he was like, you can have it, it's all good. But think about this story. Think about this story.

But think about how that guitar found you and you wrote all those great songs. Okay, I get it. You don't have to. But no, no, no, seriously, that wrote these songs. Yeah. Do you ever see the red violin? No. But I know what this story.

It's a great movie about this violin that's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of users. and goes all. It's, I mean, it's the same kind of thing. It's unbelievable. So you are the telly and the telly is you and there you are playing a telly in Moby-Cur. And I'm so proud. I'm so proud. All right, cool, I get that. Okay. One more tough question. I know we talked a bit about you doing your solo records. I'm just curious why you don't, there's got to be somebody in your saying, can't you have a song with a singer and we could do a single?

And is there a reason you keep your solo records without what you're saying? vocals just because i have a singer i think i've always had a singer if it was you know manson or zombie and now vince neal but that's my singer so i just kind of like just go nuts you know and yeah and um that's just i just love to just go crazy and play i love to go out and play so much i'll play anywhere with electricity, you know. And I'm not doing this to like push something, but I have this idea, which is going to come to fruition next year. I'm going to do 50 states in 50 days, 50 shows.

Yeah. You know, so 50 in a row. Okay. Now, when you, let's go back to our beautiful wives. When you sit down at the kitchen tape, I got this idea. She says. That's just disappointing. I think we end right there. I don't think we're going to talk. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.