The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - John Cowsill | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with John Cowsill (The Cowsills) for a deep-cut tour through ’60s pop history, from kitchen-table harmonies and four-set club nights as grade-schoolers to drumming as a nine-year-old on Ed Sullivan. He shares what really happened in the studio on “The Rain, the Park & Other Things” and “Hair,” and the family dynamics that fueled and fractured a once-in-a-generation vocal blend. They also trace John’s path from early Johnny Nash sessions to decades with the Beach Boys, a new duo with wife Vicki Peterson (The Bangles), and fronting The Smithereens. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Yeah, my career picked me. I didn't pick it. I just did it. Nine years old is nine years old. Yeah. He sees us and he sees two little kids and, you know, just, hmm. So he's handing us songs like, don't put your feet in the lemonade you're going. We just left Johnny Nash playing some serious stuff. And now we're here, I love my Siamese cat because she's not very fat with a toy piano. And I can't think of any other. In the 70, 80 years of rock history, I think your family stands alone in this dynamic.

I can't think of anything that even comes close. They were telling us, you're going to be living in California. We're going, no way. And we went from nothing, from zero to a hundred. Don't jump ahead. I can do it a lot. Thank you so much for being here, John. I'm so excited.

So let me explain to you how this whole thing came to me. Because you did ask. We never met before today. So I saw you playing with the Beach Boys a few years back. My wife, I love the Beach Boys, but my wife, who's a lot younger than I wanted to go see the Beach Boys play. And we live close to Ravinia outside of Chicago. And so you were playing with the Beach Boys then. And I thought, who's the handsome young drummer?

Obviously not part of the original band. That would be you. And swagger and some charm and a full head of hair. And as you do these days, I started, like, who's playing drums for the band? And I saw your name, and I thought, from the cowsills, the family band? And so I found myself after that gig thinking, I really should know more about this band. I love 60s music. I consider myself a bit of a snobby aficionado.

And I thought, you know, I really don't know much about your family band. Like I know the basics, but I'm a guy who likes to think, I know the depth of things, like who signed who and who played on what records. I'm one of those guys. I did that wrong. And I thought, wow, it's really weird because I do like the band. Why have I never kind of done the deep dive on the band? So then I jumped into the catalog for the first time. I thought, wow, there's a lot of talent in this, you know, because you get the thing where it's like, well, there's a couple hits.

And it's like, no, there's a lot of depth of talent there. And then the whole story of the band, obviously the TV show that followed, and all this, the mythological stuff, but the nuts and bolts I'm very interested in. And then, you know, watching you play on Ed Sullivan when you're 12 years old or something, I mean, that's a pretty rare. That was fun.

Yeah, but I'm saying this is a pretty rare thing. You know, very few people touch the zeitgeist in the way that your family did. And then obviously the family dynamics, I think, make it even more fascinating because, as we know through rock history, when you put family and music together, It can yield incredible results, but oftentimes there's like these other kind of sparks because they're,

it more has more to do with the family relationships than, so I don't know if that presage is what you were after, but that's why we're here. So I'm a fan to start with, so. Much appreciate it. I've done the deep dive. So here's a place to start. Playing in a band with six siblings, obviously you're one of the six and your mother. Yeah. That's pretty unique setup.

Is that anything you could have envisioned? Or because you're just a kid and you're kind of in a circumstance. Is that a fair way? Yeah, my career picked me. I didn't pick it. I just did it. I mean, I was four when I first heard my brother singing in Ohio. We lived in Kent, Ohio.

And my brother Bill is the oldest one. So he's, everybody thinks my mom or my dad started singing. This is my brother Bill. Yeah. I refer to him as our Brian Wilson of the family. And he's the, and if you ever did a deep dive, on Bill Coucher, you would see. Oh, I have.

Oh, okay, because he was like, he's amazing. He's got super talented in a unique way that very few people are. He's like the real deal, Elvis, you know, and he just means it every time. But, yeah, it picked me, so we always sang around the table, you know, folks' songs, Boil That Cabbage Down, Boy, and, hang down your head, Tom Dooley,

Stu Ball was a racehorse. Are we singing harmony that early? No, yeah, just naturally. Just everybody's singing in the living room. I think the first song I ever sang was my hillbilly baby. Okay. And twisting up my shorts because my uncle Bob had a tape recorder. I was probably five then.

I wasn't in school yet. And singing Running Bear. Didn't Johnny Cash, do you running bear or something? No, it was Bobby. I can't remember. Right. I'm not an officiator on anything. I just know the songs growing up.

And just stuff like that. Oh, it was it Bobby Bear? Bobby Bear, thank you, yeah. Running Bear, a little wet, duh. Right. Yeah, that was cool. And then, I don't know, it just evolved, and we kept doing that.

And I remember, I just remember the Beatles coming on, Ed Sullivan. Well, before that, I mean, I lived in a half. house of music and it's always my two brothers and they tried to be in other bands, Bill and Bob. It started with Bill and Bob and they were seven playing, you know, tea parties for my mom's, whatever it was. I mean, these are the stories I was told. I was too young to remember that. But I'm so quiet in here. It's just the sound of your own mind working. Yeah, thank God I don't have tinnitus at all, so I'm really happy about that. And I, you know, I'm the youngest of six boys, so I get the music dripping down to me.

You know, whatever they're listening to, this is what I'm listening to. And before the Beatles, it was the Beach Boys because I remember all those albums on the floor. But, I mean, like lightning, everything happens so fast. The shadows last forever, but the actual moments of what's happening go real quick. And I remember listening to the beach. Beach Boys, but then, like, right away, the Beatles showed up and just took it over and the British invasion and everything. And so we were watching that on the TV. And Ed Sullivan came on like the rest of the people my age.

We just, like, sitting in front of the TV set. It's just the most unbelievable thing in the world. And don't hit your chest capsule. And we went into the back room where we used to set up the bedroom for, you know, cowboy flights. We watched bananas and all the Westerns. so we'd imitate those things, but now we were going to imitate the Beatles. And, you know, so we're lip-sing,

you know, pretending were the Beatles there in our bedroom. And everything happens so quick. Now Dave Clark Five is here. Everybody's coming over from British Peter Noon's, Hermann's. So I figured I just, I had this little electric eminy organ that you would turn on and it would make this sound vv. And then you...

Was it like a good? air powered thing, yeah. And I'd put that on a desk and put the plug in the drawer and pretend I was Mike Smith. Okay. So we were kind of being the Beatles, but there were too many of us, so we had to be somebody else. And then I remember my dad who was moonlighting.

He was in the Navy, so he was moonlighting as a carpenter, and he had a friend named Neil Sylvie. and I don't know how it happened, but this blue sparkled slingerland drum kit came into the living room and put it right there in the middle in front of the fireplace and it just set it up. And my brother Barry was the first drummer,

and he sat there and we could just sit down and play. We don't know how we did this, but the first song I ever played was you can't do that. And I just sat down because it's a boom, boom, boom, boom. So there's no instruction. You're just self-teaching it, man. Everybody's self-taught, no lessons at all. But that was really fun.

And then I remember, excuse me, they went out as a trio, Bill, Bob and Barry, and I remember waking up must have been midnight or one or two in the morning, and they're counting like $300 out. And I think that was a light bulb, and my dad said that we could make money doing this, okay? And so I would tag along to them. We lived in Newport, Rhode Island,

and we would go to New York to play. I don't know how we got this gig, but it was at Northburg and High School, and we'd play all the dances there. And we'd go across the George Washington Bridge. It was so exciting. But I was just a tag-along, and I would sit in, and I would play, you can't do that.

It's kind of like a special attraction. I'm a special attraction. I'm always a special attraction somehow. And that's how that started. And then I remember, I remember we started evolving, we wanted a bass guitar, and my brother Bill was pitching to my dad, we need a bass guitar.

So my dad says, well, what can he do? And I remember they were in my mom's bedroom and sitting on her vanity seat. And my brother, Bill goes, listen to this, and he did, I like it, I like it, Jerry and the Pace makers. And that boom, boom, boom, boom, and he had to play it on the guitar in order for my dad to go to my dad.

Music Center and buy an old K, a new K base at the time. Sure. And so they came home. And at nighttime, I would be in that room playing that drum set. And we, you know, we were the family who had no money. So we'd take light bulbs out of one room to put it in another socket in the next room. And when that didn't work, I just turned all the amplifiers on because we had some fender amps, dual showmins and stuff and some silver tones.

and the lights on that your eyes would adjust so I could play drums in the room there. And parents never said, don't make that noise. Amazing. Yeah. So that was in my bedroom, and I started playing drums. And then once they got the bass guitar, by default, I became the drummer.

Now, I remember not having great time in the beginning and having people keep their hand moving while I was playing. But within six months, we were playing four sets a night at the local wine bar. And you're like, what, at this point, like 10, 11? How many? Eight. Eight.

Yeah. And I remember. So how do you get past the fact that they got a minor up on stage? They had four minors. I'm eight. My brother Barry's nine. Right. My brother Bill's a young teenager.

I mean, nobody's over 18. Was there some sort of exemption given? Well, I'm going to get to that. So the cops came. And they said, you can't play here. And so, and I remember that. That was funny. I call it the cops raided the place. What were we doing in a wine cellar?

It was no food served. There was just wine and beer and alcohol. So I guess my dad went down to town hall, cut a deal with the mayor, and the mayor says, well, as long as they don't sit at the bar or the tables, and there's a separate room for them, it was a whole, it was a wine, it was a bar, we called it the discotheque, MK discotheque, MK discotheque, Muthinger King Hotel, beautiful hotel. And in fact, a couple of nights,

Barry and I set up in one of the rooms and they sent the mics down. So we could be part of the show until we figured out that the mayor said it was okay for us to be there. And it was funny because the room that we sat in was where they stored all the liquor. So I'm sitting on a box of Cutty Sarke

while we're building a set list. But, man, those were the best times for me. And this is mostly covers or any originals of that? All covers. Yeah. All covers. We played every Stones, every Beach Boy, every Motown, every new Beatle song that came out.

I remember, you know, I had calfskin heads, so living in Rhode Island, my memory just goes right too. I'd have to get down there early on my bicycle and get the heads off and heat them up with my mom's hair dryer so they would get shrunk again. Oh, wow. Well, because calf skins just, when there's humidity, they just turn to mush.

I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know about plastic heads. I'm sure they made them, but we didn't know about them yet. Yeah. But that's how it started. And then somebody from the Today Show, because Newport, Rhode Island is very, in the summertime,

all the rich people come there. We lived in the Fifth War. We weren't rich. And they said, would you like to be on television? They were, like, stunned that we were doing this music and so well. Do you remember going to play on TV then? Yeah, man, we got in our old Ford Station wagon.

My dad had a sock in the radiator because it was during the winter time and it would overheat. But we got there and all of us went there and it was Hugh Downs. Barbara Walters very young at the time and I can't remember Chris somebody was there. But we were on national TV and that was pretty cool. No one's ever found that tape, right? No, I don't think so. It'd be a kinescope of some kind. They used to erase, they'd go over the videotape all the time and reuse it constantly.

It's so cool to see that footage though. Oh my God, that would be awesome. spotlight on talent our local talent show would have been great to have too so many things and nobody really documented anything the councils did back then you see beetles got videos all these people we had nothing you know a couple of Polaroids but um but we were on that and then somebody watched that show and contact us and that was Johnny Nash the singer Johnny Nash yeah wow now my family didn't know who Johnny Nash was but I did He saw you clearly.

Not bad, right? No, it was a song called Hercules, only the evil fear him, Hercules. It was a TV show. Okay. It was a cartoon I watched every morning. And at the end of the... Oh, he sang that?

The credits was big bold letters. The biggest thing on the credit, Johnny Nash, and I could read. So when they said we were going to his house, I was like, what? This is the guy. From Hercules, yeah. I was just amazed by that. And we signed with Jota Records.

So was it that record, was it sort of like a singles deal? Because you guys put out three singles. Was it through Mercury at that point? No, this is Joda Records. Oh, Joe to Records. Johnny Nash. It was his own label. And it was a brief stint.

We recorded probably 20 songs with him. Oh, I've never heard those songs. No, you haven't. Nobody has. Are they disappeared or? I have them all. Because? Because?

Because I have a. friend who went to Liberty and they were emptying out everything and he went in the trash and got all the master, the three tracks. You want to release those? It'll be a box set someday. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like all R&B stuff.

I mean, we'd be in Johnny Nash's apartment building on the 30th floor and playing this stuff and I'd be sitting there on the drums and, you know, doing, you can't go halfway. You got to go all the way to have my love. Digga, digger, digger, digger, do. I mean, he would say that word, diga, digger, digger. I'm trying to do this, do this, man. And we've got a drum set set up at three in the morning in his apartment. Is there a reason they wanted you guys to play R&B or?

It's what we did. He heard us. He came to the club. My brother Bill was seeing, we did Jimmy Reeves. We did, we did a lot of R&B stuff. And my brother Bill kind of like, Steve Winwood at the time, like he had that adult voice already. Yeah, he did, yeah.

And just, yeah, God, he's so great. It'd be cool to hear that stuff, though. I got it, I got it all. It's so fun to own it, man. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. So from there, after our one single went out, all I really want to be is me.

And the flip side was a song my brother, Bill and Bob wrote, called, And The Next Day 2. And it was very poppy British kind of song. But after that, that fizzled, I don't think they ever released it. And it was so funny because the pressing, and I'll never forget it, it's ingrained in my head that, so I don't know. It just kind of boom, boom, bum, where it was just off center for some reason. So it made this funny sound.

But after that, I don't know how we ended up at Mercury. Well, I think I have that. Okay. Let me ask you because you were there. Before, because I, thank you for taking me through that, because a lot of questions I had, but I want to ask a couple of things because it helps contextualize it because I think if it was just a classic 60 story of we played and we got discovered, but the family element, not just the fact that you're playing together, but your mother getting involved and your father managing the band and all that, that, we'll get to that. So we're walking back a little bit. But so did your dad see the talent in the band and see it as an excitement because it's his children or he sought us a business opportunity or all of the above? I think all of the above. I mean, we were talented.

I mean, it's undeniable. Yeah. What's really crazy is I found some clips of you guys playing in the day. And the pitch on the family is crazy good. Like, you guys just all have good pitch. Singing, yeah. It's wild. Especially with all the monitoring they had back then?

We didn't have monitors. We just worked out of the house. That's kind of what I meant. I still work off the house. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. I can't believe how good your guys pitches. Especially you've got six, seven people singing, right? It's like, it's pretty wild.

That's all we did. Yeah. No, but I'm saying it's impressive because not a lot of stuff holds up posthumously. You know, you can even seek, and I love the Mamas and the Pappas. I mean, it's one of my... Flat as pancakes. Live, it would be like, it would be a little bit. Even their records, but it was a cool sound.

we like it, you know. So you've got a good pitch. I don't hear him flat, but now I've got to go back and listen. Okay. So now you're in the business, right? You know, you've got a little bit of a deal and you're doing stuff. Like, what's your father's perspective on all that at the time? Boy, I don't know.

I was just trying to stay out of trouble. Was it just above your head because you were a kid? Yeah, absolutely. So who of the kids was the one who interfaced with your father on business? I'm sure that business. It was him and only him. And you just... Yeah, he was an authoritarian.

So he was a tough Navy guy, man. Yeah. You know, so if you've seen the documentary, you know... I haven't seen the documentary. Oh, okay. Anyway. I kind of didn't want to watch it because I wanted to hear it. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad. Because that's cool. Yeah, I mean, he was a tough nut, man.

He just wanted a duck. He was a jerk. You know, I wouldn't want him for a father. He was a nice guy with his friends and everybody loved him. I have some great attributes about him. Right. Anyway, so we end up at Mercury Records. See, that's where I'm out. That's kind of, so you did three singles at Mercury.

This much I know. Because the other stuff I kind of knew, but now it helps me understand. Okay. So you didn't play on that stuff. Is that correct? We did not, and it pissed me off. I bet. That's kind of what I was going to ask.

Yeah, because with Johnny Nash, we played our own shit. Yeah. And that was fun. And you can hear it. It sounds like it, but I didn't care. You know, it's like, I had a chip on my shoulder quietly about, you know, we're not playing our stuff. Well, we went there, and what you don't know is what they tried to make us do.

Okay, tell me. Because I love, because I grew up in a different era of recording, I love hearing about what it was like to make records then. Yeah, well. As primitive as it was, it was really a different process. It definitely was. So we get to Mercury, and we meet a guy named Shelby Sing. Okay. Shelby Singleton did novelty songs, Harper Valley, PTA.

That's how I know the name, yeah. Okay. And, you know... When you said it, I pinged in my... We're stickball kind of kids in the street, and we get there, and we're size up people, all the kids, we stuck together, and we're look with this guy where. What's, you know, he had nail polish hairsprying his hair and he was going, oh, gee, what is this guy? You know, we're very judgmental as children, but we didn't care. And then the material started pouring out.

He sees us, and he sees two little kids and, you know, just, hmm. So he's handing us songs like, don't put your feet in the lemonade. We just left Johnny Nash playing some serious stuff. And now we're here, I love my Siamese cat because she's not very fat with a toy piano, having me embarrassing this. It's the flip side of most of all, the first local regional single we had that my brother. brother Bill and Bob wrote, that was a beautiful song. What was the name of the song?

Huh? What was the name of that song? Most of all. Most of all, yeah. Yeah, it was pretty. It's sentimental to me. I have to look that one up. But that, the shit this guy put on is, and my dad's saying, you'll do it.

You know, it was that kind of thing. And then when they said, we're not going to play on our stuff, we're like looking at each other. Who's going to play this stuff? You know, that's when we first learned about studio musicians, which is fine, you know. And that continued. a while but but with that it was just it was horrible and dance or last dance party girl just dribble songs my brother bill was I'm sure the older guys were just like you're kidding this is not okay fortunately especially you've been playing beetles and we wanted to be the Beatles yeah we

were forcing we wanted to be the Beatles we wanted to be the Beatles we wanted to be the Stones we want to be takes and serious yeah and I was a long for the ride but I I felt that too even at young age and so this this stuff just dribble but we did a most peculiar man by Simon and Garfunkel is one of the singles I did listen to that with that yeah it was a bit odd oh that's just a funny stuff that we did there was a man there and his name was Ardy Cornfeld and he was a staff producer probably 20 years old an older man and yeah and he got in either my dad's here or bills or somebody, and he said,

we need to get out of here. And he already took us with his own money into, was it, Liberty or Bell Sound. It was Liberty, Liberty, Recorders in New York. And we recorded, we're in the park and other things, and the rest of that first album there. Right, and he co-wrote that. Him and Steve Duboff, yeah. So are you still, is this still studio musicians when you're at that point?

Yeah, yeah. I remember, I remember being at those sessions and they said, well, you go, you go down and sit behind the drummer. Are you singing in the harmony stacks? Oh, yeah, we sing all. So you're still on the recording, but you're not. Oh, very much so. Yeah. And we get there, and there's like a 30-piece orchestra of the day, you know, strings, horns, woodwinds.

I met Vinnie Bell, who I just loved so much. He was just a wonderful guy. He invented the electric sitar. Excuse me. And, but I'm sitting there behind this drummer, and his name is Buddy Salzman. And I was pissed. He could probably see it on me. And I was friends with Buddy years later.

That's another story. But again, you're at this point, you're like, what, 10 years old or something? I'm nine. It's all happening fast. Yeah. But again, nine years old is nine years old. Yeah, nine and ten years old, for sure. Yeah.

Right in that frack. So I'm watching him, and I see the beanbag cigar ashtray on his scenario. He's got newspaper in the kick drum, and he's playing the stuff, and he's pretty cool. And he turns around me and tries to shock me with a... This is my daughter. He says something mildly inappropriate, and I'm turning beat red, you know. It's like when this guy's messing with my head... I didn't know it.

That was, excuse me, what it was, but that's what it was. And so the sessions went on, I learned, I learned what I had to learn from the studio guys. What did you, we're both coughing. Right? The plague. Allergies. Obviously, now you know that it turned into this classic song,

and it's quite a beautiful recording. Yeah, I love it. Do you have any? I must have been hard because I realized you were sort of in your feelings at the moment by being somewhat ostracized in this process and I can imagine it was very difficult But at the same time you're thinking well, this is kind of interesting I was over it I mean I was not upset I was born a happy guy and so I mean did you like the song for example? Oh my god, yes It's so sentimental to me and I remember the session so well and yeah and singing around the mic we always sing around one mic and How many people would sing around the one mic then? How many people would sing around the one mic then? How many people would sing around the mic?

when you would do vocal stacks? Well, on the first album, it was really just still the four guys. And it wasn't until after we finished the recordings of the songs that we already went to get a deal for us, Ari Cornfield. And so we went to a management company, and it was Lenny Stogel, who was the manager for Tommy, not Tommy James, but go ahead. Sam the Sham?

Yeah, Sam the Sham. It says he was the manager of Tommy James. I don't know if that's true. No, it's not true. Boyce and heart? Yeah, for sure. Royal Guardsman. Yes, Royal Guardsman.

I was going to say that. You've got to go real deep to know who the Royal Guards are. Wait, one more is Keith, the Wild Kingdom. 98.6. 98.6. Yeah, great song. Yeah, he lived there. He lived.

We all lived in this one building, 888, 8th Avenue, between 50s, second and third on 8th Avenue across from the old Madison Square Garden. And everybody lived in that building. And we were friends with Sam. Linda Eastman and I would get up for school and she'd pat me on the head because she was Keith's girlfriend at the time. Wow.

Yeah, I remember that. That's pretty cool. It was really cool. It was a magical time. That's why I think that's partially why I'm obsessed by old recording process because the recording process was set up to capture magic and when you did you get these incredible, like everybody's just

on their game that day. Yeah, it's just that way. Because you've played, you know, the drumming on that song. you know it was a big hit song for your family you know you go from can't get arrested to playing songs that some guy thinks you're like a kiddie band to now you have the number two song in America yeah and your aunt Sullivan yeah that was Ed Sullivan was like that blew away because I remember the day going to the Ed Sullivan's theater it wasn't called that yet I just I forget it was called then

but hadn't been renamed yet and we went there a few days before because they also filmed to tell the truth there. Okay. Okay? And so... Did you get to go watch or something? Better than that. They wanted to put my mom on there

because who is the real Barbara Kowsell? Okay. So we get there. Now, again, I'm a child, so I see Bud Collier. Now, I know his name as well because he is the voice of Superman in the cartoon. Ah. And he went from,

This looks like a job for Superman, and he would change his voice when he turned into Superman. And like, there he was, just looking at us, you know. It's in Kitty Carlisle, Peggy Cass, Orson Bean. I don't think... Orson Bean, wow. That's taken me with it. They were the panels, and my mom was on that.

Oh, there's a video, I bet you wish you had. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of stuff now, but not as much as I probably should have. But that was really cool. And would the Reeve Barbara Castle please stand up? And we boys went behind her to stand there.

But that was the same stage. But then the next couple of days, we went there to do the Ed Solomon show. And if you watch us on there, we can't get the grins off our face because we're on the same stage where the Beatles were. It's cool because if you look on YouTube,

there's a rehearsal take of you guys doing it. Yeah. And then there's like the live. And the live one, the sound goes out. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah. And I think that's why we were scheduled to do 10 shows, but my dad had a drinking problem.

And so he went into the audio booth where nobody's supposed to go. And I think he wreaked havoc. I wasn't there to witness that. But that didn't sit well with Bob Preck, Ed's son-in-law, who was one of the producers of the show. And we did one more Christmas show after that. I think we did two more after that because I did weekend fly because I remember Carmine had taught me how to twirl my sticks. So, um, yeah, the, the internet has different. One says you played on Ed Sullivan twice and one says you played out Sullivan three times.

Yeah. You played, I know you played twice in 1967. Yeah. Did a Christmas song and then I think it may be Indian Lake? No, because Indian Lake wasn't out yet. So it was, rain the park was the first one. And then we did the medley of like, here's our live show. Wait, are you saying, oh, lonesome me?

I did indeed. See? That's in there. Very good. good, Philly. You did this cool thing where like your brother, Bill, introduced to everybody and you hang a little bit. Yes. Yeah, we were introducing ourselves to America. Yeah. And you did Mamas and the papas. We did it. We were a cover band, man. And that was our live show. Yeah. Even after we recorded all those songs, we never did those live. Really? Now, we just did paperback writer.

Monday always opened the show with Monday, Monday, and ended it with Reach Out. We do the Cruel War. So you never played your album recordings, generally speaking. That's crazy. I know. Because there was good stuff in there. I thought so. I mean, got to get away from it all? Come on.

We did gray sunny day. You may not know that one, but that was a cool song, really good vocals. And we did, like, poor baby, we did the hits. We did Indian Lake, of course. We did We Can Fly. We did Hair. There's that, I don't know if it's like, you guys, or a military base and your one brother comes up

and he's wearing military garb. Yeah, that was operations. Operation Entertainment. Yeah, but like the vocals are so good. Dude, I didn't know that existed. And Steve Lukather sends me a thing. He says, hey, man, I've been deep diving. I go, and I'm looking at my phone, what?

You know, and he says, and I think people yank in my chain, but as I'm older now, I realize these, we're all the same age. So they were cool now. It's, councils are cool. We weren't cool growing up, man. It hurt.

It hurt my older brothers. Okay, we'll get to that. Okay. So you got this manager, Leonard Stogel. So how influential is he in this process? You got Arnie Kornfeld, right? Yeah. Artie.

Artie, Cornfield. So these are the two people kind of, they propel you onto the world stage, so to speak. Well, yeah, because. Sorry, in that time, you literally could go from total obscurity to, like, you're huge overnight.

Yeah. Did you, how do that feel? I mean, you're a little kid. Did you really understand what was happening? You know what, I mean, from an adult perspective, now that you look back. But I was always a kind of like a shy, embarrassed kind of kid. So, I want...

You don't play the drums that way, though. I want you to like me. Okay. And I want to entertain you because there's some psychological with performing. But when... took us to Lenny Stogel, that's where they did. Somebody in that room decided they were going to put my mom in the band. That's when we found out my mom was going to be in the band. So when take me into the room when somebody sits you guys down and says, hey, by the way, your mom's joining the band. I was probably sitting in the hallway because we sat in this long hallway, a waiting room hallway while people are cutting the deal, the management production deal. Yeah. And then they got us the MGM contract. Right. Okay. I don't remember the exact moment, but all I knew is that our mom was in this band now. So we had to go in and added my mom's vocal to reign the park.

And she was not into this. She was a housewife. She's a Navy housewife. So if she wasn't into it, how did she get kind of wrangled into your father? My dad ran. I'm just saying whose idea was. He ran the ship. Well, whose ever idea it was, my dad.

went okay that we're doing that your mom's going to be in the band you think somebody said we think this would be a good idea your dad said absolutely sure absolutely so then he goes to your mother and says you're in the band you're in the band and i mean she had the shaking legs you know she had a beautiful voice she would sing in the house we all sang in the house yeah there's in that medley that you guys doing that sullivan you can hear she has a really good voice yeah and um but that She wasn't made for that, but she... Okay, did anyone ever explain the psychology of putting her in the group? No.

All the kids singing makes total sense, right? Yeah. Like, check out these talented kids, and they can play whatever. They can play paperback writer. And then, oh, by the way, the mom's in the band. That's where it gets so... In wrestling, we say, Kabuki. Yeah.

You know, it's beyond the pale of reality. Like, why does the mom have to be in the band? I'm sure that, and I know that affected Bill and Bob, because they were the older guys. Bill, especially Bill. Listen, you're young and you want to get chicks And suddenly it's like, oh, and my mom's in the band Well, and you want to, you're, you, it's not even about the chicks It's like, we're a serious band. It's like now

Anyway. Sounds very 60s, right? It's like, yeah, we wanted to be the Beatles and Stones still. Yeah. Okay. That wasn't going to happen with the mom in the band But I will say hindsight is that we probably wouldn't have gotten famous If we didn't have that You think it was like a cool gimmick or... I guess so. I guess so.

It was something that people remembered or... Because it looks... Nothing against your mother got... No, no. But I'm saying... But it looks very mystifying to me from a distance. It's odd. And...

Because the normal assumption would be it was a stage mom thing, you know, like... Yeah. Because I dealt in the situation once where the mother insisted on being involved with a band that was younger. And you kept saying, why does your mom have to be... be involved. So I just assumed it was a similar dynamic. She was like, oh, I'm going to get in on this. No, she just was there. And she was a good camper, you know, and she's saying great. And she sounded great in the stack. And we made a career doing that. And we got famous because of that, probably. And then they added my sister, who was very talented, great singer, my sister, Susan.

And Paul came in later when Bill had to go to school. So he started filling in for Bill. Yeah. And it just, it went from four to six to seven, right? Yeah, to seven. Something like that. Something like that. It's confusing. I'm confused. I don't even like to think about it. I'm so, like, don't fill my head with too much stuff, but you're about to.

Sorry. Well, I mean, my real interest is, I want to talk to you because I'm very interested in this period of time in music, but also your experience is so unique. And I think your family ban is oftentimes overlooked. And I would know because I was one of those people that was overlooking. You know what I'm saying? Sure. And I guess maybe it's my own thing, but I get offended when people overlook what I do because they just think, like, joke I always make is, oh, you're the rat in the cage guy.

Right? Oh, I don't get it. You know, it's like, oh, you're the partridge family ban. You know, it's like when people reduce you to kind of the one sentence. And when I really look at what your family accomplished, it's like, like, no, there's a much more interesting and there's a lot of musical depth there. That's the part that surprised me when I really dove into the catalog of your family. Especially the later stuff after the hits were done.

You know, we were experimental band. Don't jump ahead. Well, I can do what I want. I'm the youngest brother. Nobody tells me what to do. I had five older brothers and two ex-wife. Okay, so take, we'll get there too if you want. So, again, it's almost like a kind of a running gag, but you know, you're 11 years old, you're, you know what I mean?

You're on, you know, you're on national TV. You're entering puberty. Right, man, that was tough going through puberty in public. Right. Okay. So you got all that. Yeah. You've got a brother who's a musical savant by all estimations.

I'm sure there are other siblings that were very headstrong. I've seen some interviews with your sister. She doesn't exactly seem like a will. building flower. No, and everybody's got a strong personality. So that's what makes it interesting though, right? You know what I mean? It's just really interesting dynamic, and I can't think of any other, in the 70, 80 years

of rock history, I think your family stands alone in this dynamic. I can't think of anything that even comes close. Can you? I don't know. Beach Boys, maybe? I mean, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think any, I think any, for you know, I think any, you know, I think, family band is going to have that certain situation. Right. So what I'm asking you to do here is maybe pause for a second. And you can pick any point in this heightened. Because I read somewhere you guys were doing about 200 shows a year. I don't know if that's accurate.

With who? With you guys at this point we're doing. The cowsills? Yeah. Yeah, we never were off the road. Okay. So you're doing, you're constantly playing. You're a young kid.

And oh, by the way, these are your siblings. You still have all the typical thing like you stole my toothpoles. you know what I mean? How did it, but I mean, did the public notoriety affect the family relationships or did the family relationships supersede whatever was happening in the world? We lived in our own little bubble. We all got along so the kids, you know, we all got along, you know. Yeah, I don't know. It just was, they're my family. And I, there was no falling out of any kind of thing with us. But we also, didn't share more than we needed to with each other

because we were always avoiding getting in trouble. Because... My dad. Just the authoritarian type of... Oh, yeah, yeah. That was always behind your head. You're always thinking about that. He's a type of guy wore a raybant,

so you never know where he was looking. Yeah, but that's got to be tough if you guys are generating all this income, and were you conscious of that? Because, like, when I interviewed Corey Feldman, for example, he had to emancipate from his parents because they were siphoning off his money and so he was conscious of like

that he was providing for his family so on one hand there was pride and the other hand it was kind of like I don't have control of where this ship is going Oh yeah, none at all you know we had I think they set up trust funds for us I mean if that's what you're kind of talking about

No no I don't know anything about it but I'm No no but I never thought about that you know it's always provided for but and I remember when we first got a lot It's like Barry got $15 something. I don't remember getting anything, but interesting. I hadn't thought about that for so long. I just wonder if...

But I do remember that we did make the money, and we were the ones making the money, not my dad per se, although, you know, we're a unit, of course. So my dad was really smart and that he got it as far as it did, because he did. I mean, it started, I mean, he would do like when we were starting out. We'd just drive to Brown University, and my dad knocked on the door of the Commons room there and said, hey, Joe Blow sent us here, where do we set up? And these are young kids, you know, and they don't want to be done. Well, just come on in here. And he would open all the windows.

And by the end of the afternoon, we had played all afternoon in this place. And we'd played every frat party in Brown University. Yeah, wow. From that. And just... So we had the moxie to kind of... Yeah, had he gone to school, he would have been smart. Yeah.

He would have been a... Did your father have any musical talent? No, they'd throw him off Times Square at New Year's singing. You know, he had... He did not have any. I think it came from my mom's dad, a strange father. I've learned, like, really recently within the last two years, that he was a vaudeville.

Huffer. There had to be something, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know that. And I just... I really want to have family in my life because I'm older, and I never paid attention to... We had a core cousin group, but, like, I'm reaching out, even out to these...

Because, like, I want to know something about our history, because we got nothing from my dad's side. I don't know anything about his side other than he had a sister, and she had a son named Ronnie. I don't know my dad's history You know My parents didn't talk about stuff back then anyway You know

Yeah it was a different world So So about 68 you guys moved to California Yeah that was a trip man We came off a promotional tour And they were telling us You're going to be living in California We're going no way

And we went from We went from nothing From zero to a hundred And they dropped us in this house in Santa Monica on San Vicentee, 19th Street, corner house, tennis courts, Olympic swimming pool. And, like, just, like, amazing. My God, it was just amazing. And it lasted a short while, but it was so fun to have that. And then we recorded, we were still recording, but now,

And the reason we moved to California is because all the record companies left New York. Yeah. During that period. And so we migrated here as well. It was a great thing to have happened. So I couldn't wait to say I live in California. Yeah. And we lived in this neighborhood.

And like I said, we're stickball guys. So, and we always, you know, if you moved, we were Navy Brat. So when you moved, you wanted to find out who the kids were in the neighborhoods. So I'm walking down La Mesa Drive, you know, all these mansions and stuff, knocking on doors. saying, any kids here, you know? And no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're like the Beverly Hillbillies in this neighborhood. Ah, I see.

Because we're playing stickball in the street. Yeah. Cars are trying to get by. Who are these people, you know? And then they found out who we were, so some of the local kids would come and hang in our tree and scrawl things, but really didn't want to interact. And then they wanted you to interact,

and we'd be rehearsing and we had a pool house, so we made that the rehearsal room, we'd rehearsing there, we'd see kids in the back windows, and that was okay, you know, that we didn't care about that. But then they started, like, jumping over our wall, jumping on the trampoline, and just kind of being mischievous. I mean, this is how I remember it. And I don't know, it just kind of got dark.

And I'm fan fear kind of guy. I've always been that way. You know, I was never good at being a celebrity. person, you know, because I just grew up doing it, so I didn't ever think of myself as anything other than this kid, you know, who happened to play music. And I think my family members felt that way, too. We never had big egos about anything like that. So I just remember one day our house was tepeeed, toilet papered in the trees, and we came in and all our instruments from the pool house were in the swimming pool. I mean, organs, drumming.

guitars floating and this stuff and the cops came out and oh my gosh yeah it was the neighborhood kids and you couldn't touch them because they lived behind doors and they tried to it was a big it was a big deal but that that was kind of mean I thought you know steal this stuff don't ruin it yeah if you're gonna be a just that was a weird thing to have happened wasn't it that's a very strange I would never do that. Never forget it. Yeah. And living in California,

and then had that big earthquake must have been 69 or 70, and we didn't know what that was either. Never heard of an earthquake. I mean, like, for real. Yeah, the real one. When you first out here and you have the real one, you're like, I want to go back home.

Some of my brothers stayed asleep through it and didn't care. And then, like, some of it was like, I mean, just, what the heck is this? And I remember looking out one of the windows trying to hold on. And, like, the pool was just being, emptied and and I remember my dad because he was a boiler tender in the Navy he thought the furnace was blowing up downstairs so he's trying to get downstairs and he's fallen on his butt you know couldn't get down there that was a major thing too living in California are you are you in school at this point or is it oh school yeah yeah I went to school a little bit I went to a when I was in New York I think I went to school for a couple of

months and that was in but how did you guys sort of skirt the the laws about being in school there were no laws so just there were no laws yeah the what do they call it correspondent schools really hadn't set in yet so you're just touring and working and we had a suitcase with like a sharp yeah I guess it was a sharp magic marker saying cows those instant school so we took schools I went to a Catholic school briefly and it was I was going to sixth and we were just starting touring. And I remember seeing that, we took our school books, but I don't think we ever opened them,

but once or twice on the tour. And my dad said, well, traveling is good education for you kids. You know what it was? And I'm a reader, so as long as you can read, you'll be fine. I didn't like school. I didn't like the, especially when I went to, we moved to New York and I was starting sixth grade,

well, starting, I was there for two months. I was there for two months, like I said, and I was fearful of that report card. I got an F, 2Ds, and a C, and growing up with bad report cards, you got beat up for that by my dad. So that wasn't, yeah, that's when I pray to Jesus, you know, whether I believe in them. I promise I will believe you this time if you just get me out of this hot water, you know. So one other interesting thing, there's the basic story, and if you want to get into it, of you guys doing hair, but I'm more interested in the recording,

because it's such a unique recording for its time. It kind of pre-sages a lot of things that come later. Even in Queen, I was listening to it. It's almost like hearing Queen before Queen, all that crazy vocal stacking you guys are doing. You played on that record, I'm right crazy, because I read something about how hard it was to record. Because there's a lot of crazy time change.

But I don't know if that's true. You know, you tell me. Not bad. Okay, so we're approached by Carl Reiner, who was doing... A thousand-year-old man. Yes, exactly. And he's doing this special TV show called... The Wonderful World of Pazazazaz.

And you fill my blanks in for me. So he says he wanted us to lip-sink the song from the Broadway musical. and my brother Bill said no we'll record a version of it and we'll lip sync that but we're not going to you know because Carl wanted to have leathers and chains and long hair and stuff because

it would be the antithesis of the council's image. You guys had the red sweater vest that's one of your looks. Yeah yeah no tuxedos right now boys so we had a blast man I owned that way I felt I felt like Jack Bruce for like a whole day and we got to keep the wigs and stuff. I just, I put it on when I'm a long hair like this, you know. But I remember the recording very well.

And in fact, Mix Magazine had called my brother Bob and wanted to do an article on the recording of hair. And this is a funny thing. And Bob calls me up. He says, well, you and I are the only ones alive who were there for that. So you want to do this one? And then I said, yeah, man, because I remember DG and G and Angel, the engineer Angel, and Bob goes,

what are you talking about? We did it at United. I said, no, we didn't. We did it at this studio. And the guy's name was Angel. I thought that was a unique name for a man. Johnny, we didn't do that. And so, you know, Bob and I have this little dynamic sometimes,

you know, because I'm the younger simplings still. Yeah. That never really goes away. Of course, yeah. And I said, and I just, I shut it down. I said, then you do the interview. I'm not going to join you on that. So you just go do whatever you want.

You know, he's telling me, well, look it on Wikipedia. You know, I gave Ben Jordan or Gold Record. I said, okay, why? Well, go, fine. So I was out of that interview. Yeah. So two days later, the guy from Mix Magazine calls me up, hey, you want to do this interview.

I said, no, I'm not doing it. My brother Bob's going to do it with you. Why? I said, because we disagree. on where it was recorded. He says, I said, so I'm not going to, it's not worth my energy. He says, well, this is easy. Just tell me what you know, and I'll check it out for you.

I went, okay, he's adjourned. This is great. I said, okay, here's what I think. It was either T T TNG or TG. I said, and the building was a white stucco building, and it had a black stripe with this blue-writing T-G-N-G, and going up the stair outside up to the room. And I think it was on like Highland or something.

I said, and there was the engineer guy's name was Angel. So he called me back two hours later. He says, yeah, yeah, I just talked to Angel Ballisterre. Oh, my God. And your brother Bill gave him a gold record where he tore out the R-A-F-F sign and wrote to Angel Ballister, thanks so much, because my brother Bill got the... that studio for us. Now, we always recorded

at United, but this was for a TV show, and we were just going to do this ourselves. And I just felt so vindicated after that. Basically, you guys produced the record. Oh, yeah, Bill and Bob produced that, and it took 58 days because I kept slowing the

goddamn bridge down. And I'll never forget that, and where everybody was sitting in the room. And it was Angel Ballister, man. I was so cool. I was so glad to be right. Because all those, because there's got those weird stops in it? There's no click track. So how do you, how do you manage to record like that? That's how everybody recorded without a click track. No, what I'm saying is, what I'm trying to say is

there's all those weird stops and there's like vocal breaks. Is somebody singing live and that's sort of like the guide and then? Yeah, usually. Okay. Yeah, just simple. We knew the song. I knew how it went. Yeah, I'm just saying, I don't know how we, how people recorded back then. We count the holes. And like everybody who tries to play that song, they always play the beginning wrong. So I think it's, funny when they try to bring the drums in. So would you air count the hold or would somebody, yeah, okay. I'd count it out. Okay, yeah.

Yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. Like, darling, two, three, kateka, give me a head with, you know, so it was always like that. Yeah. Yeah. Such a cool record. Man, it holds up so well. Echo on the vocals.

It's so cool sound and we didn't know it was going to be a single. We just recorded it for the TV show. The story goes that somebody took it to the label and the label said we didn't. don't want to release it. Exactly. And one of your brothers played it at WLS in Chicago. And we were there. Got a strong reaction. And they still didn't want to release it. No. And that guy got fired, but that song went on fire just from that. How is that? Just from that one time. Just from that one time. And that song also went to number two. I do have a trivia question. I think I wrote it down. Okay. You didn't get to number one. What was the number one song that kept

you from the number one spot? If it was hair, it was Aquarius, Fifth Dimension. But I think, but on Billboard, hair did go to number one. It was rain the park that went to number two. Well, you know, the internet. They're wrong. As soon as we get out of this interview, I'm going to... You go right ahead.

I'll take you. You were there. It was there. Okay. I don't want to do the thing where they cut to the end of the movie and it gets dark, but there's, well, there's, because... because I've been there in this sense of the word, we can sit there and slow down the time and say,

this happened, this happened, but I know, and you know, that when you're in those compressed times, it just flies by. It's like a blur. Like a lightning. Right. I mean, it goes so fast. So somebody can say, oh, you're on this show,

and you're like, yeah, I kind of remember that, but the aggregate is a blur. But the first time of any kind of real weirdness in the whole thing, and you can talk about the, let's call it, the record company side of it is where your father fires your brother. Flamingo, 1970. Wow, yeah, I mean, that's where it started. Is that the building up of a lot of tension over time, or is it just an incident?

You know, when we moved to California, there's so much that pre-states this conversation. You tell it however you want, because I'm interested. So when we're in Rhode Island and we're playing those clubs for set tonight, there's another band in that town, and they're called The Orphans. And that's Wadiwok Tels Band. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So we're all playing in Newport, Rhode Island at the same time, 1965, 1966.

And somebody says, you've got to go check these guys out. So he comes into the Mucinger King, and you'll hear Wadi say, what the fuck is this? Who are these kids who can sing this Beatles and Stone and all this stuff? Well. And for people don't know, Wadi Wachtell is a legendary session guitar player in town, played on a ton of famous records. Most people would know him from his years of playing with Stevie Nix.

Yeah, yeah. So Wadi's a very successful person. Very successful. So him and Bill, we've just became friends forever. I mean, every Thanksgiving, Christmas dinner, he'd come with the band, all the guys from the band. And I would go watch him, you know, and Wadi'd be playing this Gretchen instead of getting a new machine for his guitar, he'd just use pliers to tune it, you know? So those are their early days.

And then I just met so many people who are famous now, like the pigeons would play a club there, and that was Carmine and Tim Bogart. Wow. It was pre-Vinella Fudge. And cactus. And cactus. And they'd come over and use our gear to rehearse. and, you know, and Carmine taught me how to do the phony twirl, but then I learned to actually dog and pony the regular sticks,

which I never do, but I can do it. So now we're in California, and Bill is still friends with Wadi, and, you know, and they're smoking pot and doing all sorts of stuff now. And I remember one afternoon coming out into the driveway, we had like nine cars in this circle thing, you know, because we're doing good and leasing every kind of car. And my dad calls his out to show his Bill's car And on the floor there's all these things I think roaches you know

Look what your brother's doing you know it's like okay What is this all means I'm just backing up I don't want to be part of this thing And and all I remember is He must have been stewing about that my dad must have been stewing because literally Billy We are in Tuesday well now we're down to the station wagon tour It just went down so quick. Is that because stopped having hits or? Just, I don't know why, man, but we're not spending money on flights now.

Now we're in these cars. And it was during the days you could tour, and we got a, we have a suburban truck with a rack on it, and we've carrying three sets of sure vocal masters, so that's our sound system for everything, which was cool. And literally, we're going out that driveway, and the car. stops and I wasn't in the car that this happened and all I see is my dad get out of the car and Bill gets out of the car and my dad pulls his guitar out of the back thing and throws it on the driveway and we take off to go do the tour. So that's when he fired him? Okay. That's the actual you're out. Wow. And the Flamingo thing you're talking about started it. Oh, okay.

Okay. Okay. When he grabbed his hands and I remember this whole thing. Yeah. But I remember the energy around that day. And, yeah. That's tough. I'm glad somebody did that to my dad, but, and the cops did come and take them away. So, that was cool. But that's tough.

I mean, it is tough. Because it's such a beautiful story, you know. It's a very American story. Yeah. The family band. Yes, of course. I mean, we were, we, and I get it from fans. oh, you got us through our hard times.

We wanted to be like you guys. You don't know the half of it, kids. But, you know, you're always somebody else's angel. Yeah. You know? But that was the day. And, I mean, that pressure on my brother, Bob, who was Bill's partner. That's how I look at.

Those two really control the band. Bill more than Bob, but Bob was right there next to him the whole time. All of a sudden, no rehearsals, nothing. We're just on tour. We have to rearrange everything. Oh, my God. and your brother's a really good singer. It's not like you just can...

Oh, he was our best singer. Oh, God. So now Bob's suddenly having to sing all the leads, and then obviously changes who's singing harmony. Yeah, on the fly. We can do that because we, I mean, we can sing with anybody, and if I hear you're not going to the right place, I'll hit that right.

I'll fill in that void if Bob stay on your part. I we're all vocal arrangers yeah naturally so that's cool yeah so in a kind of summary way but if you want to go into depth please too you know there's the sense that it's it all starts to kind of dissipate is it because it's the business is leaving you or the or the the cohesion that kept you guys together things are changing and when you're doing something for so long you don't know how to get out of it but the funny thing is it wasn't that long No, and that's another point. But for me, 7 to 16 is a long time.

Oh, yeah. And that's the start of my career, not the famous start. Yeah, sure. So to us, it's like a long time. And everything seems like a long time. When you tell a story to someone, you'll go, oh, I used to always do that. Well, you didn't always used to do that. You probably did that two or three times.

But the shadow of the memory lasts forever. Yeah, yeah. But we're on our way down. You can just feel it. We lost Bill. We're still doing cover songs at the shows, you know, and losing members here, Paul Winder, the Navy, so he split. Then it was Bob, Barry, Me, My Mom, and Susan.

And somehow, Mom left Susan. I don't know how that all happened. It just happened so quick, and I don't remember the details of it. But it ended up being three of us, Bob Barry and me, and we're playing Who songs, you know, Pinball Wizard. I was like, what the fuck? Oh, my God.

And still the same stuff. Is it true that you guys got fired from a gig because you wouldn't play the hits or something? No, I never got fired from a gig for that. I read that somewhere. Well, there's only one time where we didn't do the hits, and that was like the later incarnations of the... Yeah, I'm just talking about in this period where it's...

No, never got fired for not. doing hits. Never. We always did the hits no matter what. So, but it was just waning and we didn't want to do it anymore. We're still wearing tuxedos for crying out loud. Billy, it just went, eh, and so. And Vegas on top of it all. And we're just afraid of my dad. So we finally, we were in Texas somewhere. Don't remember the year exactly, but it had to be early 70s. And Bob Barry and I said, let's end this thing. And I remember, I'm kind of scared to do that.

And we went in and into the hotel room. We called our dad in. And we're sitting there. And we said, and we said, we want this to end. We don't want to be in the councils anymore. Wow. And he was really quiet. And he didn't do what we all expected was like,

get mad and try to control the situation. Guys, if you just give me a chance, we can get right back up on top. Well, you know, the reality of actually doing that. Yeah, it's tough. It's far tougher. Because once you've done it and it's gone down, then people lose faith. Of course. Something that's never happened.

It doesn't happen often a re-fame. It doesn't happen often. You'll get a career if you want to have it. Yeah. Like, the councils are out there right now, and they just put it. a new album out, not that long ago. Chances of fire hitting twice, not great, especially in the music business that we live in now, which it's one I can't maneuver very easily. It's complicated. It's interesting. I'm trying to do it right now with a new project with my wife,

but that's another story. We're going to get to that too. Yeah. So we tell him that, and then he tried to coax us, I got this song that's going to be a hit and it's going to get us back on the map. And I don't, I think somebody recorded it finally. It was called, ooh, weep, chirpy, chirpy, cheap, cheap. What do you get when you da-da-da-dam, ooh-weep chirpy, chirpy, cheap, cheap, jeep. God, I got to sing soon. I can't believe I'm having this crap. It was just, you're kidding. Indian Lake was bad enough. You didn't like Indian Lake? Me personally, I was okay with it. Yeah.

It was a good arrangement. But if you hear my brother Bill talk about it, because he got the demo, he said, they handed me this piece of shit. He said that I had to whip into some kind of pop possibility. And we had changed producers by this time. He did it. The producer was West Farrell, who did hang on Sloopies. So we thought that was kind of cool. But he came in and we're in AM.

in our studios in New York and we're doing this thing and we went out to do the vocals. He says, okay, that's great guys. And we looked at him and was like, we're not done. He didn't know about double tracking vocals. Oh, wow. Interesting. I thought that was an interesting thing.

Got a lot of the family groups or even like Crosby's Sosch today, triple track. Would you guys double or triple track? Okay, what we would do, we would double track. And then we try a third because sometimes a third mute the whole two. It would make it seem thinner for some reason. So we'd change the parts around. That's something you would do with phasing. Yeah, I don't know. You change who would sing what? On the third one. Ah, that's interesting. Yeah. Because your family blend is very

unique. Yeah. And you could take two of us and it would still sound like us. It's so funny. And in our separate projects, it's just there. Yeah, that's a cool thing. I'm jealous as the singer of the family. One time I was in a car with my brother and he said, started singing. My brother doesn't sing at all. And he forgot I was in the car and he started singing. It was my voice coming out of another human being. And I begged him to do something with me.

You know, sing on record or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he? No, no. He has zero musical interest, but he's got the same voice. It was like... That interesting. And when you have a distinct voice, it's bizarre to hear that sound coming out of another human being. I'd never heard it. I'd never heard him singing my life.

And here we are in our 40s, you know. And it was this sort of a if any moment of like, wow, you can do that. And he was like, no, I don't want to do it. I understand thousands wouldn't. So thank you so much for being so generous about these stories, because I think it's such a beautiful story, and in a way it's sad that ends up kind of the way it does.

How do you, okay, so start here. How do you view it in hindsight? Do you see as, if we hit the breaks in 1972 or something, is it a positive in your mind? is what it did to your family is that the positive does do the positive that way the negatives I don't feel any pain

whatsoever from any of it I only have nice memories I only remember the good shit anyway that's just my personality so the bad stuff just I don't waste my time with it did it have a lingering effect on the family relationships

even just like so between the siblings it did on Barry and Bill because they really it really messed with Bill So as somebody as talented as your brother Bill, why didn't he kind of carry on or? He did. It didn't seem like it never went anywhere. It doesn't matter if it went anywhere. He didn't care about where it goes.

He just kept doing it. Okay. He just was a real guy, man, and we just liked to sing and we like to play. Yeah. And he was revered by his people up in Canada. Bill had a tough time. He was an alcoholic, schizophrenic. Okay, so 72's over.

Now, 74 comes in, and, you know, my brother Paul's got a deal with capital. We're calling ourselves Bridie Murphy. We're asking Lindsay Bunkingham to be in it. Wadi's in the band. Barry's in the band. I get called from Rhode Island. I'm playing at a band called Grease the Cat, just a cover band playing cool shit. I had a great time doing that.

And I came to California. And we're in the studio and Bill's there. And, you know, he says, oh, I see you got wringo drums. You're like being really weird and stuff. And I say, yeah. And, you know, we're doing drugs and drinking. Everybody's doing all sorts of shit. And so we go into the studio.

And he's just, he's impossible to work with Bill. So he kind of gets... Is that just the way he was? He was schizophrenic and an alcoholic. So he's drinking blue-shmereing off in his back pocket all day. long. He's sitting on the floor, tuning his guitar like John Sebastian for two days, you know, and not getting anywhere. We've got John Carter at Capitol. He says, so how's it going over there? Oh, everything's fine, you know.

So literally Wadi had to fire him. Goodness. And Wadi took over production of this project called Bridie Murphy. And so we're doing vocals out at Sound City with Keith Olson. And and we're doing the time is coming, so we're out on the mic, and we see this figure come in the booth, and it's my brother Bill. And I see the cowboy hat and the long coat he's got on,

and all we see is like slow motion, he goes to the two-inch MCI tape recorder and pulls the tape off and sits on the floor and he's shoving in his mouth and he's doing all this shit. Paul leaves the main studio and runs in there, And there is a brawl in the studio. And Keith Olson is like, God bless him, man. He was afraid of us for years after that. No cows are around here.

You guys are crazy, you know. And that happened. And I think Jackson and Warren wrote a song The Night Billy ate the tape. Interesting. And then, okay, so there's that moment. That fizzled. And so then I'm playing with Jan and Dean.

and I told Bob and Paul and Susan, I said, you know, we could get some gigs, you know, if you want to. I said, I know these booking people now. I've been playing with Jan and Dean five years. Yeah. And we said, okay, well, we'll talk about that. So we went to see Dick Clark in his office, and he had the Cavalcate of Stars kind of thing still.

And then we said, oh, well, think about that. And so we went outside. We said, no, we're not going to do that. Let's go do a new album. And so we went in to the studio and tried to do some things. and made some demos, and then we played them for Jackson Brown, and he knew a guy named Chuck Plotkin who produced Bruce Springsteen's stuff. He was mixing darkness on the edge of town at the time,

and we met him, and he heard this stuff, and we started this relationship with him. We ended up at Clover Studios, and we recorded an album called Cocaine Drain. I listened to some of that. Yeah. Very interesting. That's some good stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

It really showcased Susan's vocal prowess and us as musicians. We played with Buzzy Feton, Ernie Watts, Billy Payne, they all came in. And it felt, that made me feel good. I don't care if we ever got famous that we were being appreciated now on that level with other musicians and stuff. You know, don't care about the fame part. I just want to be a cool guy for a second. But that ended up going nowhere because there was nobody to say, okay, you're done, you're done.

Creativity kept getting in the way. It was like five years of recording, becoming better songwriters. That's crazy. It's crazy. But through that, you know, I got, I hung out there. I lived at Clover. I loved hanging out. Got to know Bruce and Steve Vanceant and these guys there.

And Chuck had other projects. He had the Bob Dylan project there. Came in the Shot of Love album. He had Tommy two tones. I got to sing and play percussion on that. Yeah. 867, 5-2. Yeah, yeah.

I was saying on a Bette Midler thing, no frills. So Chuck was really nice to me. He really, he made me, because I always thinking I'm sucking my whole life because, you know, I just felt like I sucked. And Chuck said, actually, you don't. He says, you're really good or you wouldn't be in here. I said, you know, so that really helped me out a lot. And that's why you gave me some sessions and stuff.

Nothing major. Yeah. But it made me feel good. And now when people say, you know, I'm this and that, and I tell people I may not be the best remember, but I have the best time being one. And I don't care anymore. I'm just there to lay into it.

And I sing and play and people carry. But see, that's the beautiful thing, because I was watching you play with the Beach Boys, and I thought, who is this person? Yeah. You know, something about the way you played, maybe ask the question. I just love that.

And I love to play those songs. And you know, I'm not a shredder, but I care about what I'm doing, you know, and I just love doing it. And I do you. Okay, so last question. Okay. For people that would watch this interview and see us talking about this band, I mean, yes, they're still out playing, but in terms of the spiritual essence of what started, you know, kind of dissipated in early 70s, like what would you want people to know about that time or about the family of the band?

Is that too strange a question? I don't know how to answer it. We'd had a lot of fun and made some music. It gave us. me a career. It was my university of becoming who I am today. There's a sort of, I hate to use the word because it's not a better word for me at the moment, but there's a certain innocence in it because you are a family and you're just making good music. Yeah. And there was a time in American culture with that was enough. Yeah. And it rose to these beautiful heights because of what it was. Oh, you're sweet. That's how I feel. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's endearing to me, especially as I get older and look back. That's amazing what they did.

And I say they. I mean, I'm a whole different person, but... Yeah, I really recommend that people go watch some of the YouTube clips of you guys playing live. But, I mean, the level of talent in the family is kind of shocking. Yeah. Yeah. So, because I want to touch on this. So you're married to Vicky of the Bengals.

Yes, I am. Beautiful woman. She is awesome. So you guys are playing under your own names. Yeah. So is it just your full names? Yeah, it's Vicki Peterson and John Kausel. put her name first because we realized that on all documents from the bank and loans and everything,

they always want the guys named first, taxes, even if I'm not making any money and she's making it. It's like, so that's a little funny thing that we decided. But we've been married almost 23 years, and we never would do anything with each other. That's so crazy. We're very domestic. It seems very natural. You would think so, but we're kind of like a couple of gunslingers, where you go first. You go first because we're both insecure. Right. musicians and thinking, I don't really write, but I'd sit and play guitar and think I've got a cool chord progression coming up, and I'd just want her to say, hey, that's nice, what's that?

Let's work on it, you know, but didn't, and she'd be making olive oil, garlic, and onions, you know, what do we having for dinner? And I'd be fixing a leak in the yard. You know, I'd be building cabinets for the new kitchen, you know. We were very domestic because we were both still touring. She was going out in the Bengals in the early part of the marriage. And you toured at the Beach Place for like almost 20 years.

20, 23 years. Yeah, that was a great gig, man. I didn't think I'd ever have a gig. I thought I'd just be somebody's carpenter. I'm working on their house because I didn't know how to get a gig. I just have always had one. And I was always too shy to call somebody up to ask for a gig. So I've just been lucky by flying by the fiend seat of my pants.

I've just been so lucky. You know, I rise to the occasion. So singing with my wife. is really a fun thing. We just get along. And the songs are so great by two of my brothers, Bill and Perry, who had the most hard time traversing the earth because they wanted to be the Beatles and the Stones,

and they are. So, that's... Cut it off, John. No, no, I... Thank you. Thank you for being so open. That's kind of why I want... That's why I'm obsessed, because there's the contrivance of the 60s and the time and the way people were signed and what people expected of you.

But if you actually watch and you listen and you know music, you see the level of talent in your family. And it's shocking because it's right there. You know, when you see six people singing, you could hear if somebody was out of tune. You can hear. So there's a beautiful story in there. And there's a sad story, but there's also the beautiful story. So to me, what you're touching on is the beauty of like, we really did have a dream.

didn't quite work out the way we wanted. But there's enough evidence there if you're interested. You know, not every story sort of ends, not every gymnast lands on their feet. Yeah. But, yeah. So the project with Vicki, I just have to say, has been therapeutic, emotional.

And you feel that in these recordings. And our producer, Paul Allen, produced most beautiful sonically gorgeous gorgeous album and got the best out of the game. What's the name of the album? It's called Long After the Fire. Okay. It's on label 51.

And out there trying to tour. And yeah. Oh, and all of a sudden, oh my God, I'm singing with the Smithsor-Ans. I've never been a lead singer of any band in my whole life. And I'm standing there, not even playing drums, singing with the Smithsereens. And that's my new thing right now. And I've done seven shows, and I got four

on the books. I didn't think I'd have a career after the Beach Boys. I was going to go work at Home Depot happily. Well, music seems to want to keep you around. I love it. And I'm blown away. Before we had this interview, I was saying, what's Billy Corgan? Smashing Pumpkin? We don't even live in the same zone. Lame the cowsills. And just, I'm so funny. And I just didn't know what you were going to ask me. And I... They work out all right. I appreciate you, man. I appreciate the interview. Thank you, John. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you.

God. It's thrown my mind.