The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Legendary Manager Freddy DeMann | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary manager Freddy DeMann, the architect behind Michael Jackson and Madonna’s rise to global dominance. He breaks down the exact moment he knew Michael was different, the fight to pair him with Quincy Jones, and how one bold call turned “Shake Your Body” into a global smash. He reveals how MTV was forced to finally play newly transcendent artists, what it took to push past label politics, the high-stakes power struggle with Joe Jackson, shaping Madonna’s rise and working alongside Billy Idol.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When I told my wife that I wanted to be a manager, she said, Freddie, I'm going to divorce you if you do something so stupid. Not everybody makes the transition from I want to be an artist to I want to be in the business of art. I loved the art of making music. What did you see that you thought, okay, this is a star? She runs out of the room, crying hysterically, and locks herself in the bathroom and doesn't come out. You're aware around for some of the wild ears. Correct.

When you say to somebody, how do you know what a record's hit? Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, but you get a feeling for it. I'm never wrong. Freddie Demand, thank you for being on my show. It's great to be here with you. We don't have much to talk about, but we'll try. We'll outlive. We'll add live.

Thank you. Let's start at the beginning, I think, because trying to do my research on you, there's not that much information on your early life. I mean, it kind of tends to pick up where you start as a record guy. but just give me kind of a sketch there to start. I just want to insured one little thing. A gentleman, a fellow named David Siegel, did a documentary on my life. And when he started, he says,

there's no information under you. You never talk to the press. I said, I never did. I made that part of my MO because I wanted my artists pushed in the front, and I'm not the guy who, you know, Michael Jackson had the guy who succeeded me with a big cigar, and he put himself next to, here I am. No, that wasn't me. I just didn't believe in that. So there's very little about it.

But I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. Come from a, you know, poor family. We struggled. We never, my mother always used to say we can't afford it. Whenever I wanted, I had voracious appetite for everything. Everything I saw I wanted, needed. No, we can't afford that. We can't afford it. Chill out, you know, although they don't use the word chill in those days. But, and as a kid, so when I was a real little kid, I used to imitate Danny Kay. He was my idol. And at that point, he was, I guess, this was huge. I get, you would say like late 40s, early 50s, he's one of the biggest stars in the work. Yeah, correct. Can I just, because I love Danny K, too, you have any sense of why he's been somewhat kind of forgotten, which I think is strange because he was such a huge star.

He was a huge star, but his movies are on, you know, Netflix or Prime. Do you agree with me that he's been somewhat forgotten? Yeah. Yes and no. Okay. Yes and no. And so, by the way, I ran it to him at Schwab's drugstore in Los Angeles on Sunset Boulevard. And he was picking out birthday cards or whatever cards, as was I.

And I, like, froze when I saw him. It's, and I wanted to talk to him, but words wouldn't come out of my mouth. And I blew that situation. And it's one of my great regrets, not talking to Danny Kay. And we had a house on Tower Road in Beverly Hills, and he lived right down the street. I could have knocked at the door. And he was that kind of guy who would have let me in.

Yeah. But anyway. Okay, so he's your idol and your imitate. My idol. And I would imitate him. I took tap dance lessons. I took drum lessons. Really?

Yeah. I wanted to be a star somehow. I wanted to be. Then I went to the Army after graduating from high school. A friend that we, the government put out this RFA Reserve Federal Act. We went in for six months active duty, and then you were in the reserves for a few years. And if you went in before your eight and a half birthday, you only spend three years active reserves, which meant every Monday night and two weeks of the summer, you know, to just stay in shape.

Anyway, when I came out of that, I wanted to be an actor. Why? because I worshiped Marlon Brando. And in my crazed mind, I said, well, he looks great in a T-shirt, and I look great in a T-shirt. That means I'm an actor. Wrong, way, way, way wrong. You can't get farther wrong than that. But did you actually try to actor audition?

Yeah, I went to acting school right after the Army. And I realized immediately that I didn't have it. Did you want to be like a method actor? Yeah, but I didn't. No method. I couldn't do it. I always thought there was a mirror, and I kept seeing myself, and I hated what I saw. Oh.

Is that weird? And I said, was it overly critical mind? Yeah, I guess. And I don't like myself in this role. And if you want to act, produce the movie and put yourself in the picture. But don't, you're never going to make it. And I got rid of the, but that's my affinity for artists. I love artists because I desperately wanted to be one and couldn't.

Was it the attraction to the glamour? Was it the attraction to the art? Art, it was the art, you know, to this day and every day, if I see a great movie, and first of all, you break it down and the dialogue is like breathtaking. And speaking of kind of combining the army and acting, I re-saw recently a few good men that Rob Reiner directed. And the dialogue by Aaron Sorkin is drop dead gorgeous, it's wonderful and so accurate.

And as a guy who spent a little time in the military, he got it right. He got everything right. It was so wonderful. So, and then you see performances, you know, Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise going at it. Yeah. In that scene, it's... Well, Frank Capra used to say that the only way to film reality is to film it at 130% speed.

Yeah. That movies in particular, like it's a compressed form of life, but you're sort of trying to find the right balance of it feels real. But you obviously can't have a 30-minute conversation on screen, you know, have to still a done. I found it with three minutes. And I loved music. I used to go to, when I left Brooklyn and moved to Manhattan, I used to go every Wednesday night to the Palladium, which was on Wednesday night they had Latin bands.

Okay. And I used to smoke a little reaper. Refer. Dates me, doesn't it? Yes, it does. And I would stay by the Timbali player and the Kunga player. And just, and I danced a little, but, but I love, I just. Is this like Tito Puente and, yeah, Chito and those guys?

Cuban bands, orchestra. Do you ever see, is it Machinto or Michito? No, it's a machinto, I think. Yeah, yeah. Like Charlie Parker used to play with Machino. Oh, yeah. Did you like, were you a jazz guy too? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, New York, at that time must have just been amazing. It was fabulous. I used to listen to Symphony Sid on the radio. Yeah. And it was the greatest show. Talk a bit about your parents because I think, you know, a story like yours is so unique. And were your parents interested in show business or was there a business side of your parents? Like, where does, because, you know, you didn't become who you became by accident.

It had to come from somewhere. Well, my mother really embraced children. My father didn't. He was a very funny guy and a cool guy, but he was in the insurance business. and it's something that he hated. And I could spend time talking about it, but he suffered from severe hypertension. And in those days, I had no drugs for it.

And what is, because I literally said the other day to my wife, I think I have hypertension. She said you don't. But do you remember what hypertension is? Do you mean the number? Yeah, 120 over 80 is considered okay. Oh, okay. And anything less than that is better.

Anything more than that gets progressively worse. Okay. And it does eat at you as it did him, my father. And I had a drive. He used to go at night to people's homes to try to sell them sure life insurance. And even at that young age, I was like 14, 15, I knew this is a terrible idea, you know. I see.

But he started losing sight in his eyes. I used to drive him every night. And he worked for the insurance company, had to add up all the numbers. And there was no calculators in those days. And he said, you cannot make a mistake. I didn't do it as a threat, but he just said, if you make a mistake, you've got to redo this whole column is this big. And my mother was the showbiz girl. And she's the one that sent Danny Kay a letter saying, my son is this and this and this.

and he answered her, and he sent her two tickets to the Roxy Theater. And she put me on, and he said he would talk to him. He said he would talk to us. And I tugged down his jacket, I mean, my mother wants you. And he came over and he chatted us. And that, I think, moved her and moved me in a magnificent way. Oh, I see. So growing up in New York at that time,

just give me the atmosphere in your mind, because you had an attraction to show business and you said you wanted to be in it. But like, you know, there's the storied aspect of Broadway. Obviously, you were going to see artists play. Just give me a sense of the New York atmosphere because did that ignite something in you that maybe ignited your passion for the business?

Because that's something that's... Not everybody makes the transition from I want to be an artist to I want to be in the business of art. Right. First of all, in my teams... I had a rough teenage years because one or the other parent was always sick in and out of hospitals. I was kind of trying time. Plus, I worked part-time.

The third term high school, we went in the afternoon, so I had a job in the morning. And then it became, went to school in the morning, and I worked afterwards. So I had no social life. I was very, believe it or not shy. and I was forming. I was, you know, coming out of the womb. I was still coming out of the womb, if you will. And all I did is play ball.

You know, I had a bunch of guys. We had a baseball team. And I read a lot. I read Schopenhauer and I read Ferlandgetti and I read, you know, everybody. Fairly heady stuff for a team. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to improve myself and educate myself and become something. else, then I guess I was subconsciously very unhappy with who I was.

Was it an economic thing? Was it seeing what your parents were going through? Both. It was both. It was kind of rough years. And it was the Army, believe it or not, I felt I had to prove myself to me that I could do all these things. And my father did not want me to go into the army. And I just said I have to do it. I didn't, he probably knew that he was going to die. And that's why he said, you'll never be drafted. I didn't know what he meant. I said, everybody's getting drafted. I don't want to be drafted. So I'm going to, and anyway, I was physically, it was the great thing because I could do anything they asked of me physically. mentally, not so good.

But it was, it made me who I am, and this is embarrassing, but I'm going to shut my phone. It's a famous artist calling you, see. No. Sorry about this. It's okay. I should have done that earlier. I forget to ask, so. Yeah.

So that. And then the same friend who got me into the army who talked me into it got a job at Jubilee records in New York. And I said, what do you do? Well, I get records played. You go to Radio State. That's for me. I got to do that.

Here we go. And that's how it began. And, you know, they hired me at $75 a week, which was 25 more than I thought I'd get. And, man, I would took off. like I visited every radio station. I drove around. What was your circuit? Well, he says, you can't do New York because you're too green.

You can't do Philadelphia, but we're going to give you Pennsylvania and New York. So you'll get. Go prove yourself. Yeah, go prove yourself. And I did. But I used to drive around every town and look for antennas. Because in that, below that antenna was a little cubicle where a disc jockey was doing a show live.

And, you know, I did pretty good. Then I met this disc jockey in Philadelphia, Jared Blavitt, the Gita with the heater, as he was known. And he got all the kids in Philadelphia, all. If you want to hear. Was he like, well, Dick Clark started in Philly too, right? Yeah, he danced on Dick Clark's show when he was young. Back then, Philly could break records.

Philly was like, whoa. It was a great town For people don't understand The music business is so different now As you and I know But back then you could break a record In a regional Correct

It didn't have to be New York or L.A. Even in Chicago Right, right Go ahead Just Walk me through walking cold Into a radio station I'm fascinated by the old record business

Yeah, this is the early days Here's young you When I walked into the Geter Because I did research He's a guy. And it was a little funky place in Camden, New Jersey. And it was a 250 water, but it beamed into Philadelphia somehow. And they were against Wibbage, WIB, which was a 50,000-watt station.

And, you know, they had huge reach. But here's this whole station. And this guy was charismatic. And all the kids used to dance to have record hops and do all these things. Nobody knows what a record hop is now. I remember. But I walked in and I looked, there he was, behind a glass thing. It was an air conditioner.

It was August. It was hot as be Jesus out there. And I walked out and I said, hey, where are you going? I'm going to see the Gator. No, you can't go. Who are you? Well, I'm Freddie DeVen, Jubilee Records. No, he can't see it.

Yes, he can. And we got into a shoving match. And the Gator sees me, says, ways to me in. And we were talking like we knew each other all our lives. And he said, what did he got there? Well, I remember the record. Snap Your Fingers by Joe Henderson. He said, I don't play that.

What else you got? He said, well, I got this great record. I love you by the volumes. Said, you know, they've been after me for two weeks to play that and I wouldn't do it. I'm going to play it for you. Wow. What? And he played it three times.

times at night. And the next morning, you know, there was a little buzz and all that. So I like to do my research. Top stars of Jubilee Records in the 60s. Bobby Freeman. Mm-hmm. The Cadillacs. Yeah, this was before me.

Okay, this is before you. Yeah. Okay. Deloresse. Yeah. Don Rondo. Yeah. And they also had, like, Jim Backus, the comedian, and Rusty Warren. Rusty Warren was the biggest seller. So give me some of the artists that you were attracted to. The Bob Betts. Okay.

Because you're in your youth. I mean, you're literally the record buying public. Yeah, yeah, that's right. The Bob Betts were wonderful and I took them around. I don't know the Bobettes. Oh. This is like a duop type. One, two, three.

Oh, okay. That's the Bobbets. Look at Mr. Lee. Oh, yeah, great song. You know, I know that song because a DJ in Chicago, that used to be his introduction song. Wow. play it because his last name was Lee. So every time he'd come on the radio as his opening,

he'd play that song coming and going on his shift. Oh, that's great. And so I know that song because I heard it 500 times. And speaking of Chicago, they gave me a raise and said, we want you to become Midwest regional-co-manager. Now we're talking. Are we talking Dick Beyondy times? Yeah.

And I said, oh, so I'll travel to, you know, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh. No, we want you to move to Chicago. I said, Chicago, I don't want to live in Chicago. That would have been my reaction to. Okay, we'll get someone else. It's whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, slow down. My kind of town, Chicago is.

I love it. But I really didn't have records for WLS and pop. I loved the black DJs. And I used to hang out with them. Was the, was the, was the, was the, was the, was the label more, uh, yeah, more African-American at that. Yeah. So what would have been the station in Chicago?

W-V-O-N. V-O-N, yeah. Great, great, right. My dad used to listen to V-O-N, that's right. Oh, yeah. And great characters. What wonderful guys. I had the best times with them.

And, uh, it's just a side question. I wouldn't have thought to ask it, but, you know, uh, not everybody from your generation really understood or celebrated black artists in the music business, particularly at those times. And you know, racism back then was pervasive. I mean, did you, did you, in trying to go into some of these stations and playing great black artists, did you face some of that? Yeah. But I felt so at ease in the black stations and so ill at ease at like WLS. I just, I couldn't, I couldn't relate to these guys. I can only relate to these other guys. What was it about the, the, the, the white stations that...

First of all, I didn't have the music. Yeah. You're walking in with the wrong. And they were too square. And, you know, I just had difficulty in finding a middle ground that we could talk about, whereas I was just at ease and I sat with them. I said, and, you know, you've got to at the middle of a sentence, stop talking when they press that button and they're live.

You know, the music's playing, but now they're on. They're alive. Yeah. And, you know, I just, it was great camaraderie. And I have other stories that I probably shouldn't say on this show. We're here to talk about, whatever you want to talk about. Were you at Roulette when there was that, because I love this record. Excuse me, Last Kiss.

Do you know that record? Oh, yeah, yeah. Were you at Roulette when that? No, sorry, I did you leave. But I was friendly with the guy who owned Roulette. I suddenly blanked on his name. But he was a little bit of a gangster. Oh, Morris Levy.

Morris Levy. Yeah. I mean, you could talk about it however you want. You did some promotion work for roulette or in my crazy. No, it was Jubilee. And then... Wasn't there some crossover, though, between Jubilee and roulette, though? Wasn't there some...

Oh, okay. But Morris, you know, he was the godfather of all the music business. And he would do the talking for everybody. and he was infamous and famous and famous. My father came of age in Chicago in the 60s and oftentimes talked about the mob influence in the music. You want to address that in any way in particular. I mean, it's been off explored,

but I think people that are modern music fans don't understand how pervasive the influence was back then of mob using labels and Morris Levy is, oftentimes been accused of being sort of an extension of all that. I mean, you saw it firsthand, but I mean, you could talk about whatever part of it you want. Well, I didn't personally, you know, no one ever threatened me. You know, I think I was too. At that point, I was unimportant.

Yeah. I was just, but you must have heard those stories about being people getting threatened. I knew who's who. And I knew, you know. Because there's notorious stories that where they would walk in somewhere, but wise guy and go and you're going to play this record. Yeah. Right.

That's right. And then. That did happen. Yeah, and Tommy James, I read Tommy James's book, and he, of course, was on roulette, and he said Morris stole money from a blind and, you know, all that stuff. Did you ever go to sessions with the artist? Did you ever go? I went to, I was at a label after Jubilee. It was called Amy Mala Bell, and we named it at my request Bell Records.

it had a sound, and that's where I... Is that the same bell that went on to be a label in the 70s? Became Arista. Oh, okay, wow. That's a history there. And I worked for a guy named Larry Utah, who was a wonderful guy, and it was just he and me and his secretary. That's how we started, but we signed Lee Dorsey,

James and Bobby Purify. Wow, I love those records. Great, great records. In effect, I have those on the original label. Really? Oh, my God, those records. Del Shannon. The Purify.

Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels. Yeah. Okay, I know that label because I had that. So that's when I came into my own. And that's when I... So that's your like your peak promo period. This was, yeah. And this was everything.

And what's the great Purify Brothers hit, I'm trying to think? Do you remember? James. You remember the Purify Brothers? James and Bobby Purify. Yeah, but what's like that? There was that one hit that. I'm your puppet.

Oh, my God. Great. One of the great songs and records. Yeah, see, my father loved R&B. So I grew up with all that music. And then, of course, later I went and found my own version of it. So I heard that stuff in the house. Yeah.

So I relate to what you're talking about. Because I watched it with my father where people would oftentimes say racist stuff to him because he loved black music. Like, why you listen to that type of music and stuff. And he would defend it. He would say, this is. the better music. You know, I'm just going to where the music is. So he loved everybody from, you know, the shylights to Stevie Wonder, whatever. So I grew up in, so I understand that the conviction you must have had. He's well-rounded, your father. He'd grown up in a black

neighborhood, so he grew up steeped in the music, and he was colorblind, at least as it came to music. And he would just say flat out. I'm sorry, black music's just better than white music. He just, he felt that very strongly. Right. And, And the funny thing is, and I shouldn't say it, but I'm going to say it. From there, I moved to the West Coast, and I got a job at, I was offered this job at Dot Records, which was the whitest record company on the planet Earth. And their artists were Lawrence Welk, Billy Vaughn, Pat Boone. My dad hated Pat Boone.

Right. And how in God's name would I ever take that job? my affinity was the black music all the time. This was so white that I couldn't even believe it. And talk about being unable to converse. Hello. Sorry to laugh because I totally understand what you're saying. So here's another little story, which I think you'll like.

So I got friendly. I was very friendly with a lot of disc junkies. I'm very friendly. And one guy called me, I'm now on the Dot Records, and I'm going to do it in my, and his voice to the best of my ability. I'm not being racist or anything. But, Freddy, amen, putting his band together. We're bad, man, we're bad.

You got to come up to see us. And he was from San Francisco. And I said, hmm, and I love this guy. We were real tight. Is this slice stone? Slice stone. Yeah. That's when he was a DJ, right?

Yeah. And he was the smokingist DJ. It was so cool, the show. Everything he said. And white kids, black kids. Yeah. Well, he had that beautiful gift of speaking for every year. He did.

He did. He was amazing, amazing. And I didn't go up to see him because there's that one black person working at Dot Records. There's not even a guy sweeping the floor. Everybody is white. I said, how am I going to ever bring this guy to work? walk the halls when he doesn't see a brother or sister. It's going to embarrass me.

What am I going to sell him? Yeah. There's nobody here. He's even going to relate, yeah. So I didn't go. And then so my friend, David Caprolick of Columbia Records, swooped in and signed him to the label. And I think management. And he said, Freddie, you're the only one I trust.

Would you look at the contract? I said, sly, man, you're a friend of mine. He's a friend of mine. I can't be in the middle. I'm going to, somebody's going to be angry. Yeah. You know, and I never spoke to Sly again. Really?

That's sad. It's so sad. And. I understand the feeling. Yeah. So was it strictly work that brought you west? Yeah. It was, I had visited L.A. on business trips.

several times, and I was mesmerized. I was absolutely mesmerized. This is the town. And in those days, it was just the coolest place. Everybody was nice. Everybody was cool. Everybody looked good. Nobody wasn't handsome or beautiful.

Every single person. And, you know, my, where I came from, you know, New York is kind of tumultuous. Oh, yeah. And mean streets and this. This was wonderful. And sun shone, shine every day. It was beautiful. Yeah.

And it was just a different thing. And, you know, everybody was a little foolish. And I loved it. You know? And I remember talking to a disc jockey who was at Martoni's restaurant right off of sunset and Coenga. thing. And, hey, I'll see it tomorrow night for dinner. Oh, yeah, okay, great. Neither of us meant it. And neither of us showed up. But it was just a wonderful, full of fitness that I just loved about Los Angeles. Okay, I think I got this correct. So tell me, there's a short stand here

with Eureka Records. Oh, wow. I couldn't find much information on Eureka, but my one understanding about Eureka was heavy soul. Yeah. Like late, are we talking late 60s, like real deep urban soul? Like 69, I think. I found a couple of the records, so I kind of got the general gist. But there's almost no information on this label. Well, it died at early death.

Okay. And I signed a couple of acts. I worked for, after Dodd, I went through Kent Modern Records, which you probably never heard of. It's a blues company. owned by the Bihari family. Okay. And Jules Bihari was the senior, the older brother, and he kind of ran it.

And they signed, and hopefully that I won't get sued, they ripped off every black artist that they ever signed. They were just thieves and made me very uncomfortable. And I remember when Martin Luther came. King got shot. I said, well, you're going to close your doors for the funeral. You're not going to be open. Of course they're going to be open.

They were so callous and so cold and couldn't care less about the artist. Most cases were black. And it was a very uncomfortable situation. But they had BB King that had a low, low, fulsome. that had wonderful acts and that's when I wanted to make records and so there was some guy believe it or not from like either the four freshmen

or the one of those real early early 50s or lads one of them I got friendly with and he taught me had a mixed records and had a master and had a really yeah and got the sound and I became so enchanted with that Although as a producer, because I did produce, I found and signed a band called the Pacific Gas and Electric PG&E. And we made a record, and the drummer and I produced it. It's awful.

Because I knew nothing. I knew nothing. Do you remember where you recorded that? Yeah. I think it was a studio on like Coanga or something. I'm not quite sure. But... I'm just always fascinated by...

You know, because back then, studios were so primitive compared to today. But I know I remastered like almost every record at Kent Modern Records. I'm jumping places and subjects. But, you know, I loved the art of making music. And my ear, it was precisioned. Everything has to be precise.

Yeah. That's at the foundational root of making hits, right? Yeah. And you have to have the soul, the story, the melodies. And Michael Jackson, when I visited him in Paris in 2008, the year before he died, because I wanted, he had just been, I'm really jumping subjects. That's okay. He had just been acquitted of child molestation.

and he was deep in debt. I said, Michael, this is your moment to do like a phenomenal world tour. You'll make countless, you'll make hundreds of millions of dollars. You'll be out of debt. And I went to speak to him, eyeball to eyeball. We were no longer in business. It stopped in 83. This is 90, this is what, 2008.

Yes. So it's a lot of years, but we maintain a friendship, a wonderful friendship. all those years. And I think he was in Dubai or someplace. So, Fred, come, come see me. And I said, well, where are you? Well, I'm in Dubai. Dubai.

Where would you like to go? I said, oh, I don't know. I like Paris. He said, oh, great. I have a meeting there in three weeks. Why did you come? Yeah. I did.

And the last thing he said to me as I left his suite, he says, Fred, tell your girl, she forget about melodies. What he meant was tell your girl, quote, Madonna, that she's now embracing hip-hop and not doing her melodies. Yeah. And he was right. But I said, first of all, she's not my girl. I haven't seen her in, you know, 10 years at that point. but you're right she is forgetting about melodies and he taught me the importance of melodies

yeah so jumping back to Pacific Gas and Electric this is at the end of the sort of 60s beginning of the 70s music's in this kind of post-60s transition where now the music business is starting to become a business where before it was all over the place as you know and it's my understanding but tell me if I'm wrong that's kind of was that the first kind of big artist that you managed. I mean, they weren't big, but they had a hit in Pacific Gas and Electric. Yeah, I didn't

manage them. Oh, I thought I read somewhere where you managed. No, I worked for the record company and produced that first album. Okay. So what? And then they left the company, which I don't play in them. Yeah. And they said, come with us with Columbia is going to sign us. Oh, that's right. Come with us. Do you work with them, you know, manage and produce and this and that? And I stupidly said, no, I'm going to I'm going to stick it out here and I was dumb because one of the

brothers, the Bihari brothers who I was most friendly with and took an interest in the regular because they were a discounted the regular company not the discounted record company

his name was Saul and he got a stroke and then he got a heart of it and he died and when he died, they just didn't give the rest of the. I see. So I had to leave anyway. Yeah.

But so, you know, you kind of show up with Michael and the Jackson's sort of 79 is the general date I found. But before we get there, in these years between, let's say, Pacific gas and electric and hooking up with the Jackson's, it's kind of, your history is kind of vague. Yeah. Couldn't find a lot of information. Well, I didn't have some, I didn't have good years then. But the first act, when I decided to go in the management business, which would have been around what year? This is like 78, January 78.

But even before then, like what were you, you still doing radio promo? No, yeah, I was trying to make a living. Okay. And I wasn't succeeding, to be honest. I managed to, you know, get by. Yeah. But I had, it was terrible years. I assume you were married then.

Yeah. Okay. So when you come home after a hard day of not doing well, like what are you telling your wife? Like we got to change. Okay. So the, the, like that's 60, 79, 70, 71, even 72 were very unproductive for me, very unsuccessful, unproductive.

And then I needed a job, a J-O-B. And I called my friend Steve Wax, who was at, electro asylum and said, I'll take your, I know you're looking for a West Coast regional guy. I want the job. And he said, Freddie, you want to read, I can't do that. I can't let you do that. Because it was a step down. Yeah, big step down. He said, I'll call you back. And I call you back. And I said, I'm going to bring you into the company. You'd be national. But you have to move to New York for 10 weeks. David Giffman was running the company and we're moving back to L.A.

But I can't afford to put you up. You have to do it all on your own. But that turned out to be great in terms of who David signed, which were the Eagles, Linderonstadt. He had a good run. Yeah. He was good.

Yeah. And Harry Chapin, who was already on Elektra, And we had nothing but success, nothing. Hit after hit, after hit. Freddie Mercury and Queen, and we broke Bohemian Rhapsody, which everyone said, radio will never play a six-minute. Oh, six-minute. Six-minute reg.

It won't happen. So that's your fault. And we were, you know, we were. But stop me. Let me stop for you a second. Stop me. when you said things started to go bad, I can't imagine it's because you got worse at your job.

What was what changed in the music business that made those years rough before you ended up with, with death in the whole world? I think I lost my mojo somehow and I like tripped over myself. I can't offer any better explanation. I just wasn't progressing. I just wasn't moving the ball.

And it seems like doors were closed to me, even though I kind of had a good reputation in the industry, I couldn't get things to work. So I went to Electrosolium because I needed the job, frankly. I needed to work. And at some point, I said, this is not your future. You'd never

Because you could have done that job for the rest of your life Right, I could have I was secure and it was no problem But I said Promotion is like athletics You're through it at an early age You just got worn out By the habits that you did

Which I won't go into unless you want me to which I will Please But I'm I'm curious about it all And I want to When you're done I want to tell you something that I think you'll resonate with, but please, whatever you want to tell. So during those mid-70s at Electrocylum, we were all

doing a lot of blow. That was the time. That was the time. And we had great fun and great things, but you get worn out quickly. And I saw guys doing things that they shouldn't have, and I was always

in charge of myself and I never overdid anything. But that's when I knew that that was not my future. My future is artists, and I want to be with artists, and I want to manage artists. But what's the first time you go, you know, I don't have to see, look in the mirror, but what's the first time you're like, I want to be an artist manager? Because obviously that changes your life, that decision.

Or was it something that just grew over time? I think it just evolved. It just evolved. And when I told my wife that I wanted to be a manager, she said, Freddie, I'm going to divorce you if you do something so stupid. I understand. You can't. You know, you have a great job.

You're making a living. Basically, from an outside perspective, you're in the top of your perfection. Yeah. You're with a hot label. Right. You're probably killing it because you've got all these great artists. It's got to be a lot easier to walk in and say,

I got a new Eagles record. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And those were wonderful, fun days in those mid-seventh-old. But I wanted to do the artists. And not only did I do it, but the first thing I did is I got myself a brand new red Porsche. Why?

Because it made me feel better about myself. Sometimes I spend money because it forces me to have to get up off my rear end of my work. Yeah. And my wife didn't divorce. The reason I wanted to say something was, the best people I've ever worked with in the music business were former promo guys. Really?

Yes. The man, I'm thinking up off the time I had God bless him, he's passed away, is Phil Cordarero used to run. Oh, yeah. Used to run Virgin. He was my president when I was at Virgin.

He was the greatest, greatest. But see, he was an old promo guy. Yeah, that's right. And he had that street feel that promo guys get about records, yeah, about bands, about artists having a moment. You know, we're, A lot of people in the music business, for them, it's intellectual. Well, the people, the thing, promo guys don't think like that.

They're like, how am I going to get this record played? You know what I mean? I just, they have a different feel for the business. That's true. Maybe the best way I can say to that you might understand is, as a musician, you relate to the world in a musical way. I know that sounds maybe a bit arty, but it's, there's a rhythm to music and there's a way you kind of work. And it's not always intellectual. You just have to feel your way through things.

Yeah. And in the music business, from the business side, the promo guys are the closest thing to musicians in the music business. That's right. They have a sense of a, there's a feeling that you get. You know, when you say to somebody, how do you know what a record's hit? Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong.

But you get a feeling for it. I'm never wrong. I have to tell you. First of all, I never promoted a record that I didn't believe in. Okay. Okay. Okay, tell me, how about, let me play this game with you. So when you had a record that you had to sell, I mean, it's your job, but you don't believe in the record, what would you say? Or would you be honest and say, look, I got to put this across your desk, but I don't think it's a great record.

Would you be honest with the DJs or the promo guy? I would be, but there's so many records that you're handling. I just, and let's say you're a boss said, we've got to get this one. And I know it wasn't a hit. It's very difficult. Right. But I wouldn't bring the record to the radio station. So integrity was important to your.

Integrity was everything. And, you know. So when you told a guy, hey, or a girl, hey, I really believe in this record, you believed it. That's right. Yes. And I guess that came through. Yeah. Because most of the time played it.

So what's the first artist that you actually managed? Lawrence Wilk's daughter-in-law, Tanya Welk. Okay. She was a good singer, very good singer, but she didn't have a sound, that commercial sound. Okay. Whereas Madonna has a sound, a very distinctive sound. I mean, there's no, Madonna sounds like Madonna. There's nobody else.

Yeah, right. Who sounds like. And I love that sound. And, you know, she's a huge, you know, when I first met her, there was a, she came into the office. like, whoa, she had such presence, such more than presence. She was like over the top and like burning with ambition. Well, we'll get to Madonna's ambition in a second. But, but Tanya Welk was just a good singer and I liked her and I figured, well, I'll find songs for her and we'll make good records. She was touring because of that show and things rather. And the Welk, the Welk brand was huge.

Yeah, television. Huge. Huge. She was on the show every week, and, you know, people came to see her. Yeah. She was great. I also thought she could be a TV star, and I tried, and I did not succeed with that one. As in hosting her own. Well, no, trying to get her in a sitcom. Oh, I see.

You know, I believe she had those chops, but it didn't work out. And then I signed a guy from a previous record company, Kent Modern, and I produced one or two of his records and remixed all. of his old catalog Zizi Hill. You probably never heard of him, but there was a great blues singer. That's where Zizi Top took part of their name.

Yeah. And, and, and that, you know, I said, well, we'll get a hit on the first record. You know, I'm trying to figure out how am I going to make a living. We'll get a hit on the first record. We'll tour, will this, with that. And we did get a hit on the black side.

But it never went pop. And I was out of my mind at that time. and the bottom line is nobody wanted to tour him. You know, it was just a tough sale, and it didn't work out. And then, you know, I wasn't the most busy guy in the world having these two artists, and this woman used to come up and see us, and I was partnered with this fellow named Ron Wisner. And she came up to me, and we got friendly and says, you know, I'm friendly with the Jackson film, but they're looking for a manager.

Wow. Are you interested? And I said, you mean Michael Jackson, the Jackson Fire? Yeah, that's what I mean. I said, I'll take a meeting. Yeah. Now, why wasn't I more gung-ho? Because they had left Motown and gone to Epic Records,

and they couldn't buy a hit record if their life depended on it. They were huge childhood stars, but completely lost favor. They didn't know what they do. So I was born in 67. So I remember these times, and I remember people talking quite openly, even in my family, about how Michael's voice had changed. Because, of course, he'd had all the success when he was young with that super high voice. And there was kind of a feeling that, like, he went, like a lot of child stars, he wasn't going to make this transition to be an adult star. So was that kind of this sort of thing that you walked into?

Was that your impression, or do you have a different impression? I thought the sound that he had was phenomenal. And the brothers were great. They were handsome. They were charismatic. They were charismatic and they should have been stars, but they weren't. And I was bent on making them stars. So when you had the meeting,

because obviously it's an important moment in music history, when you have this meeting is the idea that he's going solo, or are he still trying to figure out the Jackson? No, not yet. So they were just going in the studio with two, producers, one of whom worked for Epic Records, house producer, and the drummer for, uh, uh, oh, anyway, I'll come up to- It'll come to you. And, um, they were making this record. And, and everyone wanted to put out, blame it on the

boogie. And I said, hmm, you know, it's a good record, but it's a mid-charter. No, you know, you don't know. We're foolish. You know, I said, no, no, I'm telling you, it's a mid-charter, and I don't think we should come out with that as the first record. But I was just the new kid on the block, everyone, the producers, the band, everyone wanted to do. I said, okay, let's do it. And it mid-charted. And I got all of my, I was very good at promotion because I did it all my life had seen, and I knew all the indie promo guys. And, you know, we really try. It never got out like maybe top 40 or 38 or something. And then Jackie Jackson wanted to put out a song called Things I Do for You on the album.

No, no, we're not doing that. There's one hit on this album, one. And it's called Shake Your Body Down to the Ground. That's what we're putting out. And I will break it before the record company knows it's out. I will get it on every station. And that's exactly what happened. So you broke it even though it wasn't even a single.

Well, it was. Two weeks later, they put it out. I see. Because suddenly there was a lot of stations playing it, and it got instant reaction. And it became sold like two million singles and made the album platinum. And then they're back. And now the Jackson's are back. But let's walk back just a little bit.

So first impressions of Michael, because at that point he was hardly a hot star. So what's your first impression of Michael Jackson person? So Michael, Michael was a little genius. Um, work always in front of a mirror doing his dance moves and reinventing himself. And every brother wanted to do a solo album. I said, guys, guys, guys, you can't do that. If anyone does a solo album, it's your lead singer. I mean, that's logical.

Yeah. And, uh, and Michael loved that. I said that. And he was friendly with Quincy Jones from the film. The Whiz. The Whiz, yeah. And they liked each other immensely, and they said, if Michael puts out a solo record, Quincy will produce it. And I said, oh, this is easy.

This is going to be fantastic. Well, Joe Jackson, the father said, why am I going to pay Quincy twice as much as another producer? I'll get another. I'll get anyway. No, no, no, no, Joe. Let me stop here here. I appreciate real quick. Is the father still basically shadow managing the band?

So you're having to deal with the, you got five brothers, right? Right. So you've got five brothers. They want to go in different directions. Right. And Joe. Joe's basically shadow managing and he's their dad. He ain't going anywhere.

And then you're trying to, and you have no real resume as a manager. Right. Okay. So now, I think the context is important. Yeah, that's true. So I had to get through Joe. And in this case, I said, Joe, if it's a. a hit, there's enough money for everybody. If it's a bomb, 100% of nothing is nothing. You don't

know on the dime. So go with it. Just stand to the side. And he said, okay. Then Don Dempsey, who ran epic record, said, I don't want Quincy doing it. He's going to make a jazz record. I said, guys, guys, I heard the songs. It's anything but a jazz record. I promise you it's good. and had a tap dance all over it, he agreed, Don Dempsey. And we went forward with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones and made, to me, one of the best records ever off the wall. Yeah. So the idea at that moment, this is 1979-ish, right?

This is, yeah. Okay, so at that moment, the band's intact. Michael's just going to make a solo record, but the Jackson's are still together. So that's kind of the situation when that record gets made. Because I remember watching television. Is it rock? Motown 25th? No, but no, it was, I remember seeing the music video.

Was it rock with you? Oh, yeah. Was that the, that was a big single off that record. Yeah. Right. So I remember watching that because I was a huge Michael Jackson fan from when he was a kid. Because we were sort of similar ages. I mean, if he was eight, I was five or something.

So I, like a lot of kids of that generation, I was like, well, I wish that was me on stage. And, of course, he was such an incredible talent. I mean, he just seemed to break every conventional idea of what a child star could be. Right. And I'm sure you remember, too, when they would be on TV. I mean, it was a big deal. The toxins were a big deal when he was young. But this seemed to be like, wait a second, that's that same guy.

And now he's singing these songs. And it was like very contemporary. And boom, there he was all of a sudden. Everything worked. when everything works, and you know better than anyone. Success has a thousand men. Yeah, I mean, you know, everything fell into place. It was just gorgeous.

It was wonderful to be part of it because you saw the magic happening in the studio. Yeah. And Michael, who was, you know, very fearful of his father, who was a tough, tough guy, in the studio, he was like a breath of air. He was so happy, big in this environment. Was it a certain freedom that he had there? Yeah, and he smiled and he talked and he everything. So it was a great experience to watch that, to watch that growth and that period.

I'm not asking you to gossip. I'm more because I'm thinking of it more as a business question, but you're in this relationship now where you have the father who had been managing them, and obviously it has a tremendous amount of influence over his kids. How did you navigate that? I mean, I guess what I'm asking was, was your best approach was to be straight with him or did you have to sort of try to massage it? I'm trying to understand Joe Jackson. Well, Joe had another guy who was like the stand-in manager whose name, I'm sorry, I forgot, but you might have notes on it.

But we replaced that guy. Okay. But they didn't have success during that period. Okay. So once you start having success, now you got his ear. So the first thing, with the solo album, by the way, it's a cute story. Quincy Jones wanted to put out Rock with You as the first single. I said, Q, I strenuously disagree because you're just coming off, shake your body down to the ground, and we made a 12-inch, you know, a dance mix out of it, which was immensely, it was a number one record,

not a number eight record or number one record and this 12 inch was like a everyone was talking about. Disco was club. Club track sound. I said you can't follow that with a mid-tempo ballad introducing.

Kind of a sweet song. Yeah. Michael Jackson because Oh, I see. If it loses a bullet one week, the radio will throw it all. And what was the first single album? Well, he wanted rock with you,

which is... Right by saying, what was the first thing? Oh, the first thing was... It would have been up-tempo. Yeah, it was a great up-tempo. Don't stop to you to get enough. Oh. And I said, you've got to come with this.

This is the greatest. And then Michael said to me, Fred, I'm so glad you fought with Quincy and won. I didn't have the nerve to talk to him. So I'm so glad you did. So he told you you're right, yeah. Yeah. And that became a number one record. So now the Jackson's and Michael Dow, it's a whole thing.

And then the 25th Motown anniversary when he did the moonwalk. That was it. That was the, and then you had coming on Thriller. And the whole album, I mean, you had Off the Wall and Thriller, which every song stands on its own as a piece of bones. Well, it's one of the greatest songs of all time. So rather than explore what's been explored a lot, I like to try to work around the edges sometimes.

what was your sort of are you in in this period of time with off the wall and then thriller which obviously was i mean it's a peak success of which there's almost very few maybe maybe there's not nothing that even compares to it you're the track the eagle's greatest hits okay god bless so what i'm asking is uh were you interacting with michael on a daily weekly basis like what's your relationship daily daily what would you want um because um you know, as you probably would know, but I was friends with Lisa Marie. So, Presley. So when I became friends with Lisa Marie, this was after she and Michael a divorce, we talked a lot about Michael the man, Michael the artist, you know, there's a lot of stuff that she told me in private. So I guess what I'm asking was, what would you like people to know about, I don't want to say the real Michael Jackson, that's probably unfair.

But, you know, we all know because there's a public and a private, personality that goes on. So what would you want people to know about the private Michael Jackson that maybe they wouldn't totally understand since you interacted with them so much, particularly in a period that was so important and so white hot? Yeah. Well, there was a daily, and he was, had unbridled ambitions. He wanted to be. You seem to attract those personalities. Yeah. He wanted to be the biggest, the best, the greatest, and he was. And again, that Motown 25th really did, plus the videos, the birth of MTV. Sure. And by the way, they didn't want to play a black artist at that time. Did they tell you that? Huh? Did they tell you that?

Yes. We won't play. I said, what? Because it was, what, too urban or two something? They just didn't want to play a black artist because it would affect the, you know, the sponsors in the South and that old, old, you know, story. And we just four tooth and nail and got Walter Yednikov who ran all of Sony to step in and said I'll never give you another video if you don't play this book.

So we had a... Yeah, so a lot was going on. Yeah. But, and I mean, we had to give Michael the news that Fred Astaire died. And Fred Astaire was his idol. And he, He was so heartbroken and Fred's sister wanted him to come to the funeral, which he did.

But talk a little bit about, if you don't mind, just, I mean, you could talk about any way you want. Michael is an artist, Michael is a songwriter. I mean, what would you want people to understand and maybe they don't understand about Michael? I mean, he's obviously, there's only a few names, you know, Elvis, Michael, you know what I mean? There's only a few names, Prince, where it's like the public fascinating. nation isn't going to go away anytime soon. You know what I mean? During my reign, which was only five years, we were very successful.

He didn't have bad habits that I knew about. He was 100% involved in his career. 100%. I think his nose was more normal in those years. There was, you know, if he had tendencies toward children, he didn't show it. He was just all about business. But how did you find him as a person maybe is what I'm really after? Like, you know, I think managers have a front row seat to how an artist really is

because they hear the complaining, they hear the whining, they hear the temper tantrums, they hear the entitlement, they hear the, you know, and part of being a manager, as you know, is sort of massaging through the storms that come up from an artist. Because there were, there were constant storms and, you know. Slites and. But I'll give you one amusing one, because it's amusing. So Michael would find ways to motivate us. We didn't need motivation.

As you could see, if you check the charts, number one single, number one album. Number one single. Well, number one artist. You can't get bigger than this. But to motivate you even more than that, he would say to me, Fred, remember, Irvin Azoff is waiting in the wings. I said, what? Irving's still waiting in the wings. Irvin.

Irvin Azov still is waiting in the wings. Why? Could he do better? Irving with himself. Irving is brilliant. But he ain't going to do better than what was being done. Yeah. Because you can't get better than number one.

So I guess am I drawing this correctly? Here you have the number one artist in the world. He's winning on every front and he's still thinking, how do I become even bigger? Right. And he's putting, in a way, pressure on you. Correct. Correct.

That was his way of notice. I didn't need it. I like to say that, you know, the record business rewards sociopaths. I'm not accusing Michael Jackson of being a sociopath, but there's sociopathic behaviors that all artists have, and I would include myself in that.

It's a desire to be loved. or cherished or celebrated or win, you know, any combination of the above, ambition being the, let's call it the central word in that. What do you think drove him at that level, you know, that he wasn't satisfied that he wanted more? Was it pathological? Was it just he thought he had more and he did have more?

How did you, maybe in the time, how did you see that? Because it's got to be weird to get a call from the number one artist in the world going, Can't we be doing more? Yeah. And that's what, you know, as I told you, we were friendly after this is the breakup, which, you know, I got the letter from the father or from John Branca saying, Michael has chosen not to re-up with you, which broke our hearts. I mean, I was out of my mind.

I was like a punch drunk fighter. How could you, I mean, you're winning. Yeah. It's like winning the Super Bowl and saying, now we've got to go with a different coach. That's right. That's exactly, that's a good analogy. And I was heartbroken.

I couldn't function even. And you felt you had a good relationship. I thought I had the best personal relationship, you know. So it was kind of a shock. Did you, let me stop me. Did you feel, because it's such rare error that you were in in that period, did you feel like there were sharks always swimming around? Did you feel that vibe?

And that shark is named Joe Jackson. And that's true. So I knew that he wanted us out. Why? Because after all of these hits, Motown 25th, and the next tour was going to be like a blockbuster, like the biggest tour of the history. And he didn't want these, and his own,

I'm not going to say those words, what he said. but he didn't say it to me, but it came back to me. He wanted it for himself, and that's when he brought in Don King, who gave each brother a million dollars, and he essentially owned them and called all the shots on that tour,

and we were expendable, and that's how it happened. So it was a heartbreaker, and the tour was a huge success, but Michael, there was so many problems and so many bad things that happened during it, Michael refused to take any money from that tour, which is amazing because it was a huge, huge.

But at the time, there was a, I'm going strictly on memory, but the time there was a sense that the tour didn't do what people thought it was going to do. Is that accurate? It did the sales, but there was, they weren't selling, they weren't paying people, they weren't, they were building a lot of animosity. It didn't have the magic that Michael created,

that should have had a halo around him. I see. And it wasn't there. Do you think, do you, the brothers started fighting with each other? Do you think in a way that, I mean, maybe this is an overly simplified question, but do you think in a way Michael's ambition blinded him to understand that there's still a balance that needs to go on? But, you know, that, because I've seen another artist, so I'm not singling him out, where they get so much juice and so much power. It's like a king who thinks they can't make a wrong decision. it starts to get almost kind of sloppy around them.

Because there's so many hands in the till and there's just so much, so many yes people, do you think that was part of what went on? I don't know. I think all artists eventually, and you're an artist. I don't know what you felt. But at some point, all artists resent paying their manager. Yeah, there's an aspect of that.

I think now that I'm older, I have a better sense of proportionality about it. there's certainly always with every, well, I'll use myself. There's always that moment on a tour where you're tired and, you know, it's been a hard go for whatever reason, hard show, your voice isn't great, whatever. And you look and you think, I'm paying some guy sitting somewhere. Right. When I'm the one who's like away from my kids and, you know what I mean? So now that just might be tour brain because you just, you know, you know, you. You know, as you know, touring turns you like a weird animal.

That's true. You think things and rationalize things that you only would rationalize on tour. So I think that's an aspect to it. So I agree with you foundationally, yes. There's a point where you think, well, if I've got to pay this guy X, well, this other guy says I can pay him Y. Right. And that's what happened. And by the way, I'm, and I've certainly done this.

I even managed myself at one point. Well, I can do what that guy's doing. And if I could pay this guy this and that, you just do it. do some kind of math in your... Yeah. And Meglamania is the right word. You start to think you, you, every decision turns to gold.

And in his case, he wasn't wrong, even if he thought it was his decision. So... Yeah. Let's stop for a second on MTV, because, you know, here you are, you know, an OG promo guy. You know what I mean?

Where you have to go in the station. Now you have this incredible promotional vehicle of MTV. Of course, it's all kind of imploded on itself now in the last 10 to 15 years. But at that point, what was your impression of like, oh, my God, I mean, if you can get, if you can get them to play it, everything seems to flow downhill. It was like having a national, a 50,000-a-lot radio station going across the whole country. Yeah. Or, and then some, because now you introduced a visual to the audio. and those artists that were great in front of a camera really excelled.

Yeah. So. And again, I had a wonderful relationship with everyone at MTV, you know. Well, they must have loved you. Yeah. We had a great relationship, every single person. So it was great. And I worked it a lot.

Yeah. It's all fine. It worked out to everybody. everybody's benefit. So where does Madonna come into this picture? So Seymour Stein, may he rest in peace. God bless him. It was a very, very good friend of mine in New York.

That's right. She was on Sire, I forgot. Yeah, Sire. And I remember when he started it and all of that. And we used to have so many conversations. I don't know why, but he slept on my couch in New York when I had an apartment there early, early days. And we used to talk about how we're going to do it, how we're going to be successful,

what we'd like, what we're going to do and we're rich. And we will in love with French food. That was, if you knew how to speak French, you were everything. So we went to French restaurants. That's what we did. On 9th Avenue, of course, we could only afford that. Anyway, it's a sidebar. He called me as, you know, in Los Angeles, he was in New York, and he said, I have an artist looking for a manager.

He actually said, shopping for a manager. And I said, shopping, what is, are my Gelsons or my wall bounds, you know, no, I'm not interested in a meeting. Yeah. He said, Freddy, please. I said, this one's going to be a star. Oh, Seymour, what do you know? blah, blah, bab. And I said, what's, because he signed all those great bands,

he had great bands. And he was always ahead of the game. He was wonderful, wonderful record band. Yeah, he saw, to give him great credit, he saw value in artists where other people wouldn't have seen any value. Right. Look how right he was on the Ramones, the talking heads. Yeah.

I mean, so many great sire artists. I mean, and I will say, I mean, I didn't know Seymour. I met him a few times. But the fact that Seymour had no interest in my band really hurt when it was some dumb record guy. He should have. He should have. You think we wouldn't want to sign to sire? Yeah.

I mean, talk about inheriting the blessing of Seymour. Yeah. He was the record guy who said, no, this artist is different and he got artists played. Yeah, the pretenders. I mean, so many. Great label. So I just assumed that this is a band that he's sending me. I said, what's their name?

And he said, Madonna. And I said, oh. Terrible name from band. I don't know if I could relate to a band called Madonna. You know, I don't know. I took the meeting because of my friendship with Seymour. And in walks, this dynamic blonde, you know, with the, I can't even describe in words how she sucked all the oxygen out of the room and completely controlled my office space.

She wore, you know, these big hoop earrings, zillion bracelets. All her clothes were held together by safety pins. And she was so unique and so powerful. And, you know, it was an amazing attraction in every which way. And then she left with the guy who brought her, Michael Rosenblatt, and we had a lovely meeting, but we were flirting. We didn't really talk business. And Michael Rosemblatt said, she loves you and refuses to meet anyone else.

I said, you're kidding. I said, we didn't even talk business. Bring her back. So she says, are you going to sign me? I said, well, I'd like to get to know you for a minute. and I'd like to see you work. Are you going to work somewhere soon? Yeah, I'm going to be a danceaturia in two weeks or something.

Would you come in and see me? Yeah, I will. And until then, I'll act as your manager. So if you have any problems, you know, have them call me and I'll deal with it. And she had like one pressing problem. I don't remember what it was. I said, I'll make a phone call right now and I'll get rid of this problem, which I did. So she was kind of, it was fairly fundamental, but it bothered her badly, and I took it away.

So every day she called with a new problem. Every single day. She was in New York, this is this, and blah, okay? And finally, she had like 10 problems every day. How could one person have these many problems? Shades of things to come. I don't know, but I do. Did you see the ambition in her early? Unbelievable. It was energy. It was like, radio, you had to crack the sag and a whole industry would be formed. So I went to Dancateria and saw them, and I loved what I saw.

Well, okay, because I wish I was in that room with you at that moment. What did you see that you thought, okay, this is a star? Because let's remember, you just were working with the number one star in the world. So you're, you're, you have, and you're a promo guy. Right. Okay. So give me your, Freddie in the back row, like, what did you get? What did you see?

Well, it wasn't until that's ateria that I was for sure certain that she was going to be a star. Okay. And I will tell you my own ambitions that I always wanted to sign an artist that I thought could sell out arenas or stadiums. I didn't want, you know, the bitter end or, you know. You didn't want to be that type of manager. I wanted to be a big guy. And that was the way to do it. And so that's how I judged by what I saw.

I might like you. But no, you're not going to be. And there's a few artists that fit in that category. But there was a dynamism about her that you just knew it. And that sound and her voice was amazing. The songs were good, I thought, very good. She wrote a couple, but others wrote. Had the first record come out at that point?

No, but it was cut. Okay. So the record that was on the radio a lot was everybody Come on and dance with me, everybody. I said, oh, I remember I've heard that on the black stations because that's who I listened to.

Yeah, yeah, she says, do you like it? I said, no. I'm afraid I don't like it. I remember that song now, how you're singing it. No, it just came back to me. And I think that, made her like me more because I had an opinion and I wasn't afraid to say it. I was honest.

I had integrity. An alpha is looking for an alpha. Yeah, yeah. And anyway, I signed her. All was good. I told her that she had to lose those dancers behind her. What? But it's my brother.

I said, I don't care. They're not adding anything to you. In fact, they're taking it. away from you. And then when we talked about the cover, I mean, these are funny little stories. She showed me, this is going to be my cover. I said, what is that? It's an abstract drawing. Oh, my brother, it's an abstract painting. I said, what else you have? She showed me this photo shoot that she did where she has that thing around her neck and all that and so many wonderful shots.

I said, here is your cover. She said, but my brother will be upset. I said, Madonna, forget about that. It's your career and your life. You have, this is the cover. And that was the beginning of

the direction. So I think my contribution to Madonna was steering the ship of something that has a tendency to get out of control and you have to anticipate all of the bad things that could happen and get rid of them before they become Was it akin to our personality that it was just a lot of energy going a lot of different

directions? We hit it off. There was just a, I don't want to say mutual love, but there was mutual admiration. A couple of people said, you're a father figure to her. I don't care, whatever. I could be the grandfather. You know, it works. It's something that fits.

See if this jives with you. I mean, I know Madonna a little bit. I think what surprised me, and I got to know her in the 90s when, you know, like, you know, all these things that you're talking about at this moment in your life are happening. So at that point, she's an institution. I mean, she's one of the biggest artists in the world. But what surprised me is she's kind of almost kind of like a sweet hippie quality to her. Yeah. That you don't see that with the ambition gene up front, you know, center stage.

you know, I'm Madonna and all that stuff. Like the real Madonna, at least the one that I met, seemed more like somebody would have been in Laurel Canyon or something. Does that resonate with your experience? I never saw it that way. To be honest, I never saw the Laurel Canyon in her. Maybe she was acting for me. All right, here's a good question because I thought to ask it,

because you would know. All right, ready? Who's more ambitious Michael Jackson or Madonna? Oh, that's a great question. You could get an Academy Award for that question. I would have to put them on an equal thing. Both are fiercely, fiercely ambitious. Well, there's a reason they're the top male and female artists in their feet, right?

Yeah, I mean, I witnessed the Madonna ambition up close a little bit. Very, very brief period of my life, but it's intense. And I've always believed that as a manager, you can't make the artist. The artist has to make themselves, and you guide it in a loving way and in a firm way, as you can see by these examples that I just gave you. But if you have to pull the artist, hey, you know, we got to do this. Well, I have to go see this. No, that's why they got to be crazy. Yeah.

They got to have that crazy, too. The artist has to be crazy, yes. Also around this time, you were managing Billy Idol, who I was lucky enough to interview recently. And if you want to say anything about Billy before we jump in, because I have a particular point I want to make about Billy. But how was your experience managing Billy? Because he was also red hot at that time. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think what's cool about Billy and sorry to be all over the place, but I think his legacy has endured, you know what I mean? Well, he's worked very well long since I'm gone. I don't get any of that credit for, making himself in Doreg. He has a very good manager, and they worked on that career quite well

in keeping him on the forefront. And he's changed. And you were around for some of the wild years. Correct. So I'll leave that there. But the question I was after was, because you have a unique perspective to it, you know,

would Madonna, you know, this is not the question, in my own mind, would Madonna and Billy Idle been a star in any era? And I think the answer is yes. Yes. But given their types of voices, the way they approached

music with fashion and image, they're very much particular to the rise of MTV and that media. Yes. They were like the perfect people for the perfect time. Because Billy, Billy was gorgeous.

He, he, He's still gorgeous. Yeah, the camera loves them. Because I guess what I'm after, because I love my old music and you promoted some of the great artists in the 60s. You know, artists like Madonna and Billy Idol may not have survived in those times given at times the way they sang or their voices. Does that make sense the way I'm phrasing question? I don't mean it as something against them because they're great artists. But it's like, you know, they're not franks and.

Natra or, you know, right, a dinosaur or something, you know what I mean, where you have to be able to step up to a live microphone and make it work with an orchestra and you got, you know, two hours.

You know, they're very much, they're very much artists of their time. Well, they were commanding when you, when they took the stage. Okay, so I guess what I'm trying. But it's also a natura in a way different way. And I don't mean this as a slight because I just think it's interesting,

because every time brings forward a different thing. because in my era we had also a different thing. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, did the rise of television and the visual image in a way that had never been before other than maybe people like Sinatra in movies, did that create a different dynamic of who got through the gate as a star? In essence, did charisma in many ways become more important than musical capability or something? Yes, but you always did that song.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, there's no getting around that. Okay. Are you a, as a manager, are you a give the people what they want type of person? Or are you like, are you willing to think the artist sort of knows best? I never want to give the people what they want. Tell me how.

I think, maybe you should have managed me because that's my philosophy. I probably should have, yeah, believe me. I always think the artist knows best inherently, although there have been times that they don't. Yes. But they're self-destructive. And Billy might fall into that, you know, when you talk about Billy in those days.

Yeah. But the artist does know best. And I think you have to, I was going to say, shove it down the throats of the public. Right. I don't mean to be that corrosive. Is it more like a youth, I guess, am I, if I'm reading you, quick, is it more of a conviction? It's like a thing of conviction.

Yeah. Okay. Because the artist may be crazy, but he knows or she knows, they know. You know, in the 90s, you formed a Maverick label with Madonna. And I thought to ask it in this way, because obviously Maverick's gone on to be successful as a label. But also, you know, here comes an unexecisement. expected turn in the music business, which was the rise of alternative music. You know, on the surface, kind of like what I'm saying, technology, MTV, now you have a whole new group artists who aren't really voiced for pop. You know, Nirvana is a perfect example. I mean, it was popular and it was certainly massive. But I mean, it's not like he was trying to be, you know, what would be the cookie-cutter version of the artist in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s. This was the rise of a sort of new type of anarch. Because even the stones and the Beatles, like the Beatles started in suits.

There's Mick Jagger and the Turtleneck. I mean, you're talking about artists who are coming out of the world stage in an anarchic way. And yes, there had been artists like the sex pistols, I think, but this was a different thing. So I just thought it was interesting. Maverick's Foundation also seemed to coincide at the time with alternative. And obviously, Maverick had Atlantis Morissette, one of the biggest records of all time. Certainly, I think was considered at the time an alternative artist maybe. Yeah.

Less so now because she's had such an enduring career. But you understand when I'm after there? It's like, did that, did the rise of alternative music sort of surprise you? Or because you knew Seymour and Sire, you thought it was something it was just, it was going to happen eventually. So are you asking, you know, how I saw the music in those 90s? I'm often reminded Sinatra still gets a little bit of stick for criticizing the Beatles in the beginning. Right? it's seen as a kind of a generational thing.

There's Frank going, I don't get it. Yeah, he was, yeah. And then 10 years later, he's covering Beatle songs. Right. Right. The reason I bring that up is, you know, when I heard that stuff, I thought, well, that looks poorly on Sinatra. How could you not understand the Beatles?

The Beatles were a phenomenon. But if you're Frank Sinatra in 1960, and you're singing the Great American Songbook, you're singing Gershwin and Cole Porter. Of course you wouldn't understand the Beatles, because that's like, what kind of music is this? It would sound like noise if that's what the world that you grew up in. And I'm not saying you're not that sophisticated.

I'm saying is did the rise of alternative music and that sort of different kind of anarchic thing coming into the charts so forcefully, did that strike you as odd, or did you see it just as a natural progression? Well, I think the term counterculture comes up. Okay. Because you're always, I always wanted to be involved with counterculture. Sure. I didn't want to follow the crowd. ever. And I certainly didn't want artists that followed the crowd. I wanted the left field,

the bizarre ones, you know. I wouldn't call Michael and Madonna Bazaar. But they're certainly one of one. But there were, right. That's unique. No following the crowd. And so in terms of now this new type of music, again, it's song related. It's also. I mean, Alonis, that album is like Ranks is one of the greatest albums ever because there's great songs that no, who could ever say, you know, went down on you in a theater, you know? Not me. And put that on record, you know, but it worked. Yeah. And there was melodies.

And there were lyrics that were, you, you, did she say, what did you say, you know, it drew you in? Yes. The reason I kind of went down this road Because I feel like I don't want to give Madonna a short trip She's worthy of And we could just talk about her for two hours But I thought it was interesting That there was even a moment in the 90s

Where Madonna had a sort of deal with alternative as an artist Right And she made I think Ray of Light was a record that comes A record I really liked That was when I actually became a Madonna fan I was kind of like Madonna You know it was like everybody I knew kind of like Madonna But it wasn't like my style of music

You know, holiday or whatever. You know, it's like good songs, stuff you hear in a club, but it wasn't for me. When I heard Ray of Light, I thought, wow, there's this other layer of this artist that I didn't know existed. Yeah, that was made after my time. Right, but I guess what I'm trying to say is,

I'm making a self-serving point, which is, I think it's interesting that even an artist as big as Madonna in the 90s at some point had to sort of figure out that the music landscape had shifted. Right, right. And the language of the music had shifted. Yeah.

So. Yeah. again, it's a self-serving point. But, but, you know, it should be known like a guy who Siri found candlebox. Right. And that was our first signing. And I went up to Seattle and met with them and saw them

and there was something there. And they had recorded their album. And there were two songs. There were blockbusters. Yeah. And we wound up, going, releasing the singles of their demos that they made. Wow.

Because they re-recorded, they went back in the studio and re-recorded everything, and they never found that certain something that makes a hit a hit. And it's hard to define, but it's something there that... Did you make that call? Yeah, that was my call. That's a pretty gutsy call to me. Yeah. Especially if it's like you're trying to establish the label.

Yeah. And it worked because they were big hits and the band could perform on stage and, you know, they had everything. But I don't think the Canterbox would have sold two million albums going with their newly recorded song. I don't think they would have to hit. Because we were talking about songs and how you always have to decide the songs. I did want to touch on it because Lionel Richie, of course, you guys work together,

but one of the great songwriters of all time. If you don't mind talking about Lionel just as a songwriter, because I also don't want to give him short shrift, but we only have so much time. But you just talk about him as a songwriter because he really is going to go down as one of the greats.

He is one of the greats. By the way, the best hang. If you want to hang out with an artist, hang out with Lionel I managed by the same managers as Lionel, Bruce Eskowitz, and I've never met Lionel to that, but I hear Lionel's stories all the time.

Bruce is wonderful, by the way. Thank you, thank you. I'm blessed to have Bruce's. Yeah, he's great. First of all, the great songs that he wrote were written not under my jurisdiction, if you will. It was Ken I'm blanking on his name, but I was

in managing them during those great, great days. But as a fan, and as a guy who loves music, those songs are monstrously gorgeous and lush and their arrangements. And I met his guy. And the amount of detail that went into the record making. It's wonderful, you know. It's such a wonderful art form that we are blessed to be in.

Yeah. because little things mean a lot, you know. Is there, is there a, because you work with such top, top tier artists, Shakira included, like, is there something that you find as a common thread with the, with the artists, these, these, because I've known my whole life I'm a weirdo. Like, it's not a surprise to me that I didn't appeal to everybody. I'm, in fact, I often tell people sometimes I'm lucky because I appeal to more people than I probably should have.

That's more of a blessing of talent or, or capability. but it's not because of who I am. I'm too really weird for the mainstream. So to be a top-tier artist, you have to really appeal to people across the board. Obviously, you have to have to have talent, too. But there's a sort of people tend to agree that they like the artist, right?

I mean, that's just, there's a common language that the artist speaks for people. So what have you seen with some of these great artists that you worked with? Is there a common thread? Well, to me, it's all about songs. So you're always a radio guy. You're never going to stop being a promo.

I guess. But for example, she may not like to hear that I'm saying this, but it's the truth with Shakira. So we're making her first English album. And I was in Los Angeles and she was in Miami. And I know she's in the studio. And I said, Shucky, you got to send me some music. I got to hear what you're doing. Yes, I will.

Yes, I will. You know, three days later, Shucky, you got to send me. some, yeah, I don't know what you're doing. I have to hear it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does it come? I jump on an airplane to Miami and confront her at the studio. I have to hear the music. I have to see what you're doing. I can't go in the dark. And she leaves the room and I'm left with the engineer who plays me. and I was up here, and with each song, I got lower and lower and lower. And I said to myself, this is a disaster. This is, doesn't work.

And then she came out and asked the inevitable question, what do you think? Did you tell the truth? This is one time that you don't want that question, turn on you. And I said, Shockey, I don't know how to say this to you, but it's not good. And she like gets in that wonderful Latina indignity. What do you mean? I said, well, it's, it doesn't, I can't describe the music. It's not Latin.

It's not pop. It's not alternative. It's not, R&B. It's not, you picked anything. Who's going to play this? The promotion man coming out again. She says, everybody. I said, no, Shakira.

nobody. Nobody will play this at this present form. And she runs out of the room, crying hysterically, and locks herself in the bathroom and doesn't come out. And I'm sitting there and sitting there and sitting there for maybe an hour and a half. I say to the guys, well, I guess I'm fired, and I'm going to take the next plane back to L.A. And that's what happened. I didn't get fired. But we didn't talk for like four days, which to me, if you don't talk to your artist, like every other day would be the longest I would go. But things are piling up. People are calling me.

She is Shakira, after all, she is a star. And I had to call her. Shucky, you know, this is going on, this is going on. I need answers on this. She says, Freddie, you are right. and I was wrong about the album, which I salute her. She's, I'm going to recut the entire thing. And the result was laundry service with those amazing songs.

So there is an example of maybe it's the promotion man here. You know a hit when you hear it. And I didn't hear the hit and we couldn't put it out. It's hard to be an artist sometimes and know the difference. and what I tell some of my fans sometimes is I'm the same guy I wrote the song you like and the song you don't like. But I wrote them both because I believe in them.

And of course it's easy to say, oh, I knew this one was going to be hit. But you're not always right. There's songs that I thought were absolute can't miss winners and they were bombs by record company estimations, right? So sometimes it's hard to know who to listen to. Yeah.

But I heard the story, and I'm sure it's true. John Lennon, when he was out of the Beatles, he wrote a couple of songs, and I don't know what friend he called to listen, and they listened to this song, and I don't know the name of that song, and the guy obviously wasn't blown away.

And he says, what's the other song? What would be your B-side? He's, well, I don't know. I have this little thing called, Imagine All the People. and it was the most blown out anthem. It became an anthem for the world. What a song.

It just, wow, but that was going to be a B-side. I didn't know that story. Okay, we're almost done. Thank you for your time today. I'm curious that you end up, you know, this is my own story, so tell me if I'm wrong, but the idea that you end up producing on Broadway, it's a beautiful, full circle kind of thing

that you'd be back in your town, you know? Well, that's the only thing I, the only part of the showbiz that I hadn't dealt with. Yeah. And I wanted to. I don't know, I was pulled by it. I was living now on, well, I wasn't living on these because I was still on the West Coast, but I wanted, I just wanted to do it.

You know, in the middle of all this, I did that movie, the life and death of Peter Sellers for HBO and I won eight Emmys and two Golden Globes and you know although they rarely played it which really pissed me off but it was great

you know beautifully done wonderful performance great direction great story etc etc but theater I'd never done and I had a concept and my

My concept was I was going to do, open the show, the curtain rises, and there's two big buses on stage. One says Detroit and one says Indianapolis. On one bus is Madonna, and the other bus is Michael Jackson. And somehow they meet at the Port Authority in New York and become friends. And I was going to combine their music, but I needed a through line. I didn't have a story. What's your story? Yeah.

Some reason I sought out a lawyer. Why would anyone go to a lawyer? But that was me. And I told him, he said, well, that's a great idea. My wife was a writer. Blu-blert, wrong thing to say. No disrespect, but I don't want your wife writing the book to this. I said, listen, John, this is going to take years to put together.

I'm a music guy. Instant gratification is not. quick enough. I need something now. Don't you have something I could be involved in? Yeah. One of my clients is looking for a partner. Now it turns out her client, his client was a daughter of a billionaire and didn't need my money. And she had the rights to this, she says, but you'll have to read the script first. So, well, of course I'm to read the script. And he sends it to me and at like the end of the first half I was I literally gasped and it was so the wow what a reveal and I cause I have to be it I have to do it as well you know you can't get credit on

on the because it's they've already printed the things and you can't get and you can't get an award if it wins I said Jesus That's why one would do it. Broadway, what else is there? I'll do it anyway. And that was proof by a blanked out his name. Anyway, it won not only the Tony Award, but the author won a Pulitzer.

Okay. So again, it's taste level, and that was the first. And then the woman came back to me, her name was Carol Shortstein-Hays. She's a wonderful woman from San Francisco. And it was top dog underdog. And there was about two black brothers that are like card sharks in New York. You know, they, I don't know what games are played.

And the police always come and they scatter in three seconds. And it was brilliantly written. I mean, brilliantly written. But I said to Carol, nobody should come see this. Nobody. You think all these Park Avenue debutants give a shit about... Especially the bridge of tunnel criss. Yeah, about these two guys.

However, the writing is insanely great. Well, Freddie, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. So we did it. Top Doggotted Dog. And I was right. Nobody came until she won the Pulitzer Prize for writing, Susan Lorry Parks. And then people came, and it wasn't a...

Yeah. Big hit, but I don't know. Then the next one was a Tony Award winner called Take Me Out. Well, you just have the golden touch. I don't know. I like to think that I do because I love the business so much. Yeah. I love, I eat it.

You know, and in my documentary, I talked to Lionel, he said, Freddie, I don't know how you, how you, you know, you're still here, how you're still standing. I said, because I never wanted to sleep. I always, I love the action so much that it has never worked today. And now I don't have that much to do and I'm going crazy. I'm bored. This is, you know, part of my insanity. Okay, last question.

This could become the kind of parlor question of the day. So the red meat is the topic of AI and its effects on the entertainment business. So you take that however you want. I find everybody has a different take on what's happening. Because the analogy I make is I feel like AI is like a storm. You can see the cloud coming. It's kind of, oh, it's starting raining already. Yeah, yeah.

But like the real storms. Yeah. So what's your take? Well, I will plead ignorance about it because I'm not very good with computers and all that. I'm still in the dark ages in that regard. And so AI, I'm not an expert or a devotee, but I saw your proto friend, David, doing that. That's the most insanely genius thing I've ever seen. So I know it's coming. And the fact that there's William Shatner able to talk to me about things that how would he know that how would this not real person but real person?

How would he know what I've done, you know? And yet there it is. And it's insanely genius. So, yes, your description about it's starting to rain already is very appropriate. Yeah. I was talking to some of my fans the other day online and how I was saying, you know, it may sound strange to people, but I think we will see very soon, and let's take a deceased artist like Michael Jackson. I think very soon there will be a great temptation to not only create an AI version of Michael Jackson, but basically in a state endorsed version where you can converse with them

like you and I are just sitting here talking. Right. It's scary. It's so amazing. I think it's almost so impossible for us to ponder, but I think what's crazy is we're there. We're there now. Yeah, yeah. We're in its infancy, but we're there. And it's coming. This storm is coming. Yes. It's well put. All right. Thank you, Freddie. Great talk.

Thank you.