The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Leslie Iwerks | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: March 18, 2026

Billy Corgan sits down with Oscar-nominated documentary filmmaker Leslie Iwerks, granddaughter of Disney animation pioneer Ub Iwerks, for a fascinating conversation about family legacy, creative ambition, and the stories history almost forgot. Leslie traces her journey from USC film school to becoming one of Hollywood’s most respected documentarians, with credits including The Pixar Story, Industrial Light & Magic, and her latest film, Disneyland Handcrafted. Along the way, Billy and Leslie dig into Ub Iwerks’ indispensable role in creating Mickey Mouse, explore Walt Disney’s visionary drive, Roy Disney’s underrated role as the financial backbone of the company, and the near-impossible feat of building Disneyland in less than a year. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I love to travel, I love to meet people, I love to interview people, I love to, you know, what other career really allows you to travel the world and meet all sorts of people you'd never get to meet. Your grandfather was Ubb IWorks, who started basically Disney Animation. Up always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. It's what you do with it that counts. First thing that comes in mind is it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think it's such a beautiful thing. Without Ubb, there would have never been a Mickey. So he literally saved Disney animation a bit. That's insane.

Yeah. Like it's truly insane. It is. Leslie, IWorks, thank you so much for being on my show. I so appreciate you being here. A quick resume because I think it sort of sets up the thing. So you're a very accomplished documentary. Filmmaker.

Is that a fair thing to say? Or just filmmaker? I'll always take accomplished. I like that. Who wouldn't? Okay. Just a quick resume. on you, and this isn't complete. This is, I'm just cherry picking. Hand behind the mouse, the

of IWorks story, which also involves your family. Recycle life to Pixar story, dirty oil, Ella Brennan, industrial light magic creating the impossible, pipe dream, citizen Hearst, the imaginary story, superpowered the DC story, 100 years of Warner Brothers, and of course the latest Disney Hancraft. That's quite a resume you got going. Thanks. It's kept me out of trouble. Did you, did you, did you, did you, I know, went to film school, but I mean, did you want to be a documentary filmmaker? Because it seems to me it's a very particular discipline. Yeah, well, not really. I went to film school thinking I'd be doing narrative and never took a documentary class in film school at USC, but I graduated and I had this burning

desire to tell my grandfather's story because the people that were, that worked with him were passing away. And I had never known him. I was. I mean, I, he passed. He was like maybe you were like one year old when he passed away. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I thought, well, this will be an opportunity for me to get to know him through other people.

Sure. And so I ventured to make my own documentary about him. So that was, that was, so real quick, your grandfather was of IWorks. Correct. We started basically Disney animation with Walt, right, going all the way back to Kansas City and all this stuff. So, I mean, he's a true pioneer if for people don't know their Disney history. Exactly.

But was Disney involved in the making of the artworks documentary? Yes, they funded it. Okay. So finish what you were saying because I know it was important. So that was my first documentary and it was a passion project. Yeah. And then that was successful enough for Disney to put it up for Academy Award. And then John Lasseter saw it, screened it up at Pixar and said,

would you tell our story? Oh, wow. And so that led to the Pixar story. And then I went from there. It was like, ILM saw it and said, will you tell the George Lucas story of ILM? And then it led to,

actually recycled life was right after that, though. That was about people living in the largest landfill in Central America in Guatemala City. So that was my second film that I directed and shot and edited. It pretty much did all of it, except produce it. And that led to an Oscar nomination.

And then Pixar Story got Emmy nominated. So I think between the two back to back, it kind of solidified this future path of dots, which I really enjoy doing. But did you, did you at any point feel like, do I really want to do this or this is like my calling? Because obviously it's working.

Like, just walk me through that a little bit. I mean, I think it was both. I love to travel. I love to meet people. I love to interview people. I love to, you know, what other career really allows you? to travel the world and meet all sorts of people you never get to meet, right, and interview

them in depth. So to me, that's been really fun. Yeah. And, you know, do I still want to do narrative? Am I still pursuing narrative? Yes. I was talking to a documentarian recently involving myself, but, you know, I'm watching this person really wrestle with the idea of asking me to come into their life for two years. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the question I thought to ask you was, do you feel that like when you take on a subject, I mean, you're talking about big subjects, whether it's Pixar or the imaginary story. I mean, these are big subjects, but lots of moving pieces. Do you kind of question your sanity or whether you want to dive into that ocean? Because I got to imagine a film's got to take you at least a couple years, right?

Yeah, it's an investment for sure. And you want to know that it's going to be a worthwhile endeavor, and it's going to be a compelling story, and it's going to have all the elements to important story to tell that hasn't been told before. So, yeah, it's definitely an investment in each one that comes to me or I pursue. If I'm pursuing it, I know I want it, but if it comes to me, I'm at a really careful. You must get pitched a lot, I would imagine. Yeah, I do. And not everything's, you know, what I want to do, but a lot of it, you know, it is.

So it's just juggling the, how much can I handle it once. What do you think of the modern form of the documentary? I mean, in my mind, the rise at Netflix sort of ushered forth this whole new generation of documentary films, but also this maybe like now you're getting into different takes on how to make a documentary. I love experimenting with different styles and I appreciate everybody that's telling amazing stories out there, you know? I mean, it's a cool group of filmmakers in the academy branch that I'm into. It's just fun to celebrate each other's work. Yeah. Have you seen this documentary?

I think it's called The Mother of All. lives. It was made by I think maybe it was a Moroccan filmmaker. It's very interesting because in her case she didn't have, there was no archival footage. It was about a massacre that happened in her village before she was

born but severely affected her family. So her and her father built this set into the use of handmade dolls and the setting of what the village looked at the time she recreates the emotional narrative of what happened to her family. in the village.

But she didn't even have one piece of documentary footage. Wow, that's cool. And I thought it was so groundbreaking because, you know, the first thing is a documentary person. And I've obviously done stuff with my band. It's like, you know, it's like, you're like, I wish we had that moment of you shaking so-and-so's hand. You know, there's always that moment in any kind of documentary stuff.

Like, if only somebody had taken a picture. And all she had for the whole film was one photo that somebody sneakily took of people lying dead on the street from the massacre. but that's all she had. Wow. And she built this really incredible, beautiful documentary.

So I think the evolution of the form is interesting to me because as somebody's out there looking at my own situation of a documentary point of view, you know, everybody's got their own take on what the,

and, you know, with music, as you can imagine, has fallen into this very talking head. Archival footage, talking head, archival footage. Well, there's so many in cool ways to tell stories now with animation and graphics and...

Yeah, absolutely. Do you love the people? of the documentary forum? What's your personal deeper attraction now that you're in it and you're accomplished in it? What keeps you in the game of it? I think it's telling stories

that haven't been told before and finding new ways to tell them and inspiring audiences. Yeah. You know, in new ways. Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. No, I think that's...

But it's really why I do it. There's the glamour of like you just had this beautiful documentary come out. We're going to talk about that. But there's the glamour up here. It's finally done and everybody's patting you on the back. But there's those two years where you're sitting in a room. You know, you're not out in the sun. You're working on your thing. I mean, I'm, you know, involved in a number of docs now. And to me, the fun of it is being able to keep finding the story, because the story is always changing. And even then you go into a dock and you think, okay, I've got

this, I've got the thread. I know the history, sort of. The history is always unfolding with every interview you do. Yeah. And so to me, that's, it's fun to have a through line in my head of what the chronology is or what the narrative, what I think it's going to be. But somebody will always tell you a story you never knew. Yeah. That you go, okay, now we're going over here. Yeah, yeah. And now we're coming back. And then we're going over here. And this person just said this. And it's just fun in my mind to build the narrative before it's even on, you know, in the edit bay yet. Yeah. Because it's in my head, I'm editing. So I don't have the patience.

That's why I'm amazed because I just think it's not supposed to see a herculean effort to take on somebody's story. It's, yeah, it is, but it's fun to find it. I see. You know, it takes trust. It takes trust with you in that subject to say, you know, trust me, I've got your back. Yes. I'm going to find the most interesting things to document.

and ultimately who knows where the story might go, but trust the process. Yeah. So let's talk about your grandfather. First thing it comes in mind is it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think it's such a beautiful thing because as somebody who's like a bit of a Disney file,

his name would come up a lot. And invariably, I kind of went down my own rabbit hole of finding out who he was. But this is back pre-internet days. it was harder to find information. So a stray book over here. I think at one point I had a laser disk that was like a collection of his non-Disney work.

Yep. Was it, am I assuming too much thinking it was deeply meaningful for you to tell his story? It was very meaningful. I mean, I was one when he passed away. I had grown up hearing about him from my family, reading books about him,

doing a book report when I was in elementary school, school about, you know, somebody that isn't is an underdog story that no one knows about. So that was fun for me. And then I think just, just knowing all that went on that I felt like weren't in the books that I was reading. And the stories I was hearing from the Disney side, I thought, well, there's a whole other story over here that people don't know. And so to me, that was exciting to to go back into the family, you know, photos and see all these great photos that he took when he was coming out from Kansas City and photos of Walt and teenagers. And just I wish that I had known him. I wish that I had been able to interview him.

Well, he's always struck me as an incredible person. And, you know, I think what's cool and, you know, you've lived it from the inside is that that over time, oftentimes, you know, there's always the same. you know, to the victor go the spoils and not that Walt Disney wanted to triumph over your grandfather, anybody else, but like Walt became the story. Yeah. And as you know, Roy Disney's just as big a part

of the Disney story as Walt is, but because without Roy, there'd be no money and all that type of stuff. And obviously your grandfather's artistic and innovative abilities is such a huge part of the Disney story. So I think it's cool, but you tell me, were you given free reign to tell his story?

Because, you know, I'm not saying it's a grudge, but there would certainly need to be some correction there in the record. Yeah. Well, I think what happened was I had considered making this documentary when I was at USC Film School as one of my projects. And I thought, well, wait, let me do it once I graduate and let me see if I can get support. I knew I had to get the support of the studio.

So basically I got a meeting with Roy Disney, Roy E. Disney. And I said, I really want to do this film. And he said, well, of course, your grandfather was a major, major part of the foundation of the studio. And his story should be told. And so he went to Michael Eisner at the time. And they said, let's do it. So I think it was Roy's trust in me. And also he was a big fan of my grandfathers. I mean, he worked with him in the process lab when Roy's, was filming the true life adventures. My kids love those, by the way. Yeah, are they great? And so he would go and take that film to the process lab where my grandfather was, you know, dealing with, like, all sorts of processing effects and things like that.

And, you know, he helped develop the technology that got rid of scratches and film, you know. And so a lot of that old scratchy footage, you know, would go through this bath and ultimately, it would all get cleaned up. And so that's kind of how Roy really worked with my grandfather. So he had a relationship. Yeah, they had this relationship.

He said it was always just like there was magic going on in there. If you watch him behind the mouse, he talks about, you know, the magic of ObiWorks and what he should do. And so that was fun. So Roy supported this film. He supported me and my endeavor to make it. And then, but they said, okay, well, you're, you've never done a doc before for a studio. It's a big leap. We'll give you, you know, X amount of money for a 60-minute doc.

And I was happy, but I was not happy because I wanted to make a feature link doc. And so what happened was they funded the 60-minute. I did it, and they were so impressed by it. They said, well, what did you have in mind for a feature? And I said, well, 30 more minutes would get me more time in Kansas City in their early years and just go deeper into everything that it deserves. and so they gave me the same amount of money again to extend it by 30 minutes

and put it up for Academy Award. So that sort of solidified this relationship with the studio who trusted me to make a film. But I think it was always a delicate balance because up to that point, they hadn't really given the proper credit. And Roy knew it. Roy even said to me,

he said the studio brushed him under the rug for a long time. And, you know, he said on camera, without up, there would have never been a Mickey, would never have been a Mickey. So that was like gold in a way of validating Ubs' contributions that from the studio itself versus outside historians, right? Yeah. And so Roy was a really big champion of the film and of me, and we, you know, worked on other

projects together after that. And I think today the company has completely, you know, embraced the collaboration and seen it for what it is, which is an artist and a visionary technological genius, with Walt being the visionary storyteller, showman, you know, just everything that Walt was, producer, you know, just he was the seed that blossomed, that everything blossomed from.

Sure. And so I think, that, and then Roy, being the financial genius, I mean, the three of them together were so, were so strong. And, um, but I've always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. It's what you do with it that counts. And Walt made Mickey famous. Yeah. You know, and so he was always very deferential, self, you know, different, you know, he didn't want a lot of the, he didn't care. He was happy to have drawn a mouse, animated the mouse, but he always felt like, Walt, he always felt like, Walt was able to run with that character in a way that he hadn't been able to do it before with Oswald or even Alice in Cartoonland because he didn't own those characters.

Yeah. So he knew that he needed to own his own characters. So that was great. That was the beginning of everything. Yeah. I mean, how can I put this as somebody pays attention to this stuff maybe too much. But I think where people get lost is that Disney as a sort of a, almost like a cultural phenomenon.

I don't mean Walt the person, Disney, the world that's been created. I mean, without the Mary Blairs and the, you know, the Mr. Gurr, and,

you know, there's, there's so many brilliant people in this mix. And, and, the one thing we do know is Walt must have had a magical ability at winding these people up and sending them off in the directions he did. And it's also in your,

in the handcrafted film about sort of trusting people to go in different directions and it all sort of kind of arrives at the right point. Right. There's a sense of destiny in that. Yeah, for sure. And I think it's beautiful that now with the work that you've done and, of course, you know, the restoration in many ways of your grandfather's name and the Disney story. So I guess what I'm trying to say is focusing on who drew a mouse, you know what I mean, is like, let's call it the public's overly simple version of who gets the credit. But if you really look, the credits all in plain sight, even the early Disney stuff that says,

your grandfather's names on the cartoons. It's not like he was being shoved out of the picture. But it gets complicated, of course, because with any kind of growth, and maybe I'm overpitching you, but you know what I mean? But do you agree with that kind of general assessment? Does that sound sort of reasonably accurate?

Yeah, I think he was a master at, he was a master casting director. He knew had a cast and an amazing staff of people, artists, crafts people, storytellers, writers, directors. Yeah. He knew he could see within somebody that they had talents that were undeveloped yet. Yeah. That he could pull that latent talent out of somebody and say, go over here like Blaine Gibson, you know, who was an animator. And he became Disney's top sculptor for all the animatronic figure, audio animatronic figure.

So he was really good at all that, you know. But I think at the end of the day, it was the Walt Disney Studio. And it was one man who was the leader of the company. And everyone kind of had to kind of get in line behind that, that brand. And that made a lot of sense for Walt to, I mean, Roy to basically say, it's not the Disney Brothers Studios anymore. It's the Walt Disney. I see.

It's the Walt Disney studio. Yeah, because when I was a kid, I was born in 67, we would watch on Sunday at the grandparents' house, the wonderful world of color. I had no idea that Walt was dead. To us as kids, he was the guy, and we didn't even know he wasn't alive. Wow. It was all reruns. It was all reruns. But we just, all we knew was he was on there, you know, introducing Davy Crockett or whatever.

That's all we knew. Yeah. So the cult, even of personality and even in recent squabbles with the Disney family about using Walt as an animatronic figure and. You know, it sort of gets into this weird space of like the avatar of Walt versus the real human of Walt versus the innovator of Walt. And then, of course, the business practices of Walt. That's a very complicated thing. You've lived in it, but I'm a casual observer. One interesting thing I found in poking around in your story is that your, of and your Mildred is your grandmother.

They met in Los Angeles. Is that true? Yeah, in L.A. But they got married here. And, of course, Walt and Lily and Disney were the witnesses of the wedding. So I think that that because oftentimes people overlook the familial ties. And yes, it's business and things go on. But I think that's at the root of this relationship that continues with you to the Disney world to this day.

Is that fair? Yeah, I think they were friends and they would go on trips to Santa Barbara on weekends. And, you know, they had a friendship in those early years when it was very formative. And I used to hear about these stories. And I have the, you know, the beautiful glassware and dishware that Walt and Lillian gave my grandparents for their wedding. And, you know, and bring it out on special holidays for special guests. But, yeah, I mean, I think those were really wonderful times for everybody. You know, when you look back in the history of the Disney Company before it got.

overcomplicated. To be fair to all of them, I mean, there's no way they could have possibly dreamed if it was going to turn into what it turned into. Yeah. Well, certainly, we weren't envisioning the parks yet, that's for sure. I mean, just Disney is a global brand. Right, right. Just the incursion of Disney into the world culture. It's an incredible lineage story, you know, when you think about, well, we document it in my imaginary story, you know, so to go from, and I've documented a lot of business stories and I've interviewed a lot of CEOs and to understand what that what that chronology over a hundred years or so looks like and how you sustain a company over time it's it's a it's a real balancing act and it's you can't take it for granted you know so

many businesses come and go millions and millions or millions over the course of history but there's really only you know the core few that have sustained yeah a hundred plus you years. Do you think that, because, you know, there's a lot of criticism of Walt's business practices, not a ton, but there's enough out there if you talk to the people who don't like the brand or, you know, they don't like the way Walt dealt with the strikes in the 40s or I can't remember what it was. But is there a common thread because you have been involved in these big stories, whether it's telling, you know, the Lucas world and, like, is there a common thread? Is it, is, I guess what I'm after is, is this sort of the, the tyrannical or, you know, the need to be Machiavellian in the business

practices, is that just inevitable for the brand to move on, or is there, is there another way to go about it? Oh, no, I don't think it's Machiavellian at all. I think it's actually the opposite. I feel like good leadership is about surrounding yourself with really strong talent and people that you can listen to and trust. And when that goes awry, that's when things fall apart. Oh, okay. You know, and it's also, you know, what I speak to in the Pixar story, which is it's, it's, you can work really hard for your first success like they did with Toy Story. But it's the second product syndrome that even Steve Jobs talks about, which is once you get to your second, your second project, your second film, your second computer, that's the real challenge so that you can, you can have a top the first success, you know, you want to. And so with a bug's life, after Toy Story, they were really worried.

They were not going to be as successful as Toy Story. And they called it the second product syndrome, and yet it was very successful. But it's once you get to that point, you have to sustain it. Like, it's one thing to create Mickey Mouse, but you have to sustain that momentum, and you have to build on it, and you have to write it. And to think that Walt was able to do that with a character based on circles and a squeaky little voice. this little effervescent character that became a global icon is incredible, you know, 100 years later. Yeah. Even with a special exemption from Congress at one point.

Right. I mean, nearly 100 years. He'll be 12028, but or 27. Anyway, I think that it's incredible that the Disney company, speaking of just the Disney company, that it can sustain a character and continue. to brand it and then and tell stories with it and and build characters around it and why this little mouse which was I think infused with Walt's spirit and originally my grandfather's zany personality and his wild sense of animation and just fun making things up as they went to me that was the origin story of the Mickey we know and love yeah and even though he's little wiring crazy, which I love that mouse. I love those early cartoons. And we love Mickey today. He's an every man. And when the 1930s, he hit a, he struck a nerve because of the

depression. And so everybody wanted a piece of Mickey Mouse. And Walt knew how to merchandise it and sell it to people far and wide. And then it became a global sensation. So that to me is part of that second product syndrome is to be able to, it's one thing to create success, but it's your first product, but you have to sustain it. And that's the true measure of success. You might know this. I feel like I know it, but there's a moment where, you know, they starts, Mickey becomes like a merch phenomenon. And some man wrote Walt's letter and said, I think I can do your merchandise better. Do you know that story? Yeah. If you give me 50% of the business, I'll do it. Yeah. And the Mickey Mouse watches. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I don't want to skip over

Oswald because I want to tell you a little story. So I was in the park. one time and they had Oswald shirts, which I thought was cool. Yeah. And I, and I showed my, my son the shirt. And he said, what that? And I said, this is, this is the character that IWorks did before Mickey. And so my son loves Oswald now. He, he identified with the story that there was this character before Mickey. So he's got his Oswald shirts. Long ears. I mean, really, Mickey is Oswald. Mickey is Oswald was shorter around her ears. Oh, no, I got that. But I, I, I love telling my son the story because I love that there's this, it's called the true story of the story. Can you, can you at least give us a little thumbnail sketch?

Because in this early stage that Walt and up have this relationship, I looked up both their birthdays. They were born in the same year, which that was interesting. So, you know, one, one of obviously was older than the other. But, but, you know, it strikes me that two men set off on this crazy American journey. They leave their home. They come out here. and obviously out here in 19, whatever,

1919 or something, it was like, it was pretty dusky out here at that point. Well, Walt came out in 1923. Okay. And up came out in 1924. So you got the facts because. Yeah.

That's why you have D23 because it's 1923. Oh. Oh, it's because 1919. Is when they met. That's where I'm being confused. Yeah. So even that, they met when they were 18. 19, 18.

They met when they were, let's think about it. They were 18 years old when they met. Right. Like, who knows what the hell they're going to do for 18. Right. I mean, even if you have an idea, you don't know what the hell you're doing. Yeah. They were like 27 or 28 when Mickey was created.

Yeah. So can you at least give us some light onto their personal relationship where they, where they or, or, because at some point, your, your grandfather leaves the Disney world. He comes back, but there's that period where he leaves. And there's some sense, and you tell me, you know, of feeling overlooked or not appreciated or did they, did they consider? themselves as equals or did your grandfather see Walt as he's the guy and I got to kind of figure that like because you know many times in business relationships and in the arts there's the person is like I'm cool because I'm the I'm the one is actually going to do the work and you go do all that other stuff you know you go be the face and wave but I'll be back here figuring out to do the next

animation process or something was it understood their relationship or was it something that evolved well I think they had this great relationship um all the way through through their lives And I think that as anybody changes and wants to improve their own selves or strike out on their own and try to do their own thing, just like Walt did, I mean, I think it's a complicated relationship, and I can't speak for either one of them, obviously. But all I can know is what I've read and what I've read about in interviews and things like that from, from Ab and Walt, and also from my grandparents and or my, family stories, but I think that the respect was always there. Walt always respected up. But I think

that there came a time, speaking of post-Micky's success, that overnight sensation, even though it wasn't an overnight sensation, it was third film in, but they had been working towards this moment for the last since 19, for the last almost decade, right, to try

to get to the success of Mickey Mouse through several other series. And that experimentation era was formative for both of them. They were in a very significant partnership. But I think when Mickey became successful, Walt felt the strain and the stress of pushing that character out there

and at a speed in which and quality or not quality, whatever it was, that rattled up to the point where he was considered the top animator of his day. He was considered by many in the top people in the industry

in the animation, in the early animation, industry that he was considered the guy that without Walt Disney would be nothing. And that was, and I think Walt had a strong ego. I think Walt probably in those days had, you know, just figuring himself out like they all were. They were in their late 20s. Yeah, that's kind of what I was after was like the relationship between the two men. Right. So you think you're in your late 20s. You have this overnight sensation. Now what do you do with it? How do you hang on to the reins? And how do you define your own self. And so I think at that point,

you know, Walt started taking more of the credit for Mickey and based on what I've read and that it rattled Ub that he wasn't feeling as appreciated. And Ub got an offered with MGM to form

his own animation studio, which was MGM's very first animation studio. So if you were him and not knowing the future of Mickey Mouse, you might also want to take your own path and say, I want to be my own. Because he left around 1930. He left at 1930, yeah.

And, you know, so for better or worse, you know. But it makes sense. His leaving makes sense to me. A lot of people did. A lot of other animators left, and they wanted to do their own thing. I mean, that industry at that point was just, like, everything was going on. Everyone was clamoring to get the top artists, and studios were trying to film their own company, so their own divisions of animation

and that led to, you know, a lot of early animators like Chuck Jones forming, you know, the Looney Tunes and Warner Brothers. So people were all over trying to kind of create their own brand, as was Walt. And Walt was fortunate that he had Roy. And that was a big differential because Up didn't have a Roy.

and he had a guy, but he wasn't, you know, a Roy. And so I think a lot of people, I think Roy is the unsung hero when you really think about the Disney company because Walt, you know, was an amazing visionary and knew what to do. But I think without that financial bedrock and somebody who can sort of say, let's go this direction, let's make it happen,

that's hard to do as an artist. Yeah. And I think a lot of the art. when they don't have that business side to them, they don't go as far. Yes, I've seen the road littered with many who are broke now because they didn't make good deals. I did see on a podcast you were on because I did a little research

where somebody floated out the idea you should do a doc on Roy Disney and the building of Disney World. I think that would be fascinating because even the compromise of Epcot is kind of a fascinating thing. The upcott that exists is not very much like what Walt had. I think it's hard. I think Epcot was a grand vision. I think it was harder to really pull off at that point. Foodie paradise. Right. But, you know, I think it was an amazing vision. I think it was hard. I wish to have gotten built. I think that was kind of cool. You know, there's a program where he lays out what he wants Epcot to be before he passes away. Right. You know, we never really got there. It was a cool concept. Yeah. This is a side question, but because you've, because you've, you've, you've, been to these corridors of power dealing with these grand documentaries.

Are you, is, at least I've found with filmmakers, they tend to have, there's a personal thing that they connect with. Is how power is applied something that's interesting to you? Does that, is how power is applied? Yeah, how power is applied, you know, because, whether it's D.C. or the Warner Brothers, you know, I mean, the story ultimately is like, how do you apply your power? Who do you sign? What movies do you make?

movies don't you make, the, the, the politics within the companies. Is that something that's fascinating to you? Well, very much so. I think I'm interested in the convergence between creativity, technology, and innovation. And with that comes, that's the family branch, you see. And I think that power is, is a word that, you know, it's a loaded word. It's a word, is it ego? Is it, Is it wealth? Is it ability to make decisions that a lot of people can't? Is it control? Yeah. You know, so what is power? Yeah. Part of the reason I ask is, and this is a personal reflection, but, you know, I was put in an interesting position in my life because I had talent at writing songs, but I also had a good business sense.

So from the very beginning, I had to sort of kind of run the world. But at some point, you come into odds with your partners because they don't agree with. the way you're making the decisions, but they're also not personally invested in dealing with the day-to-day business. So there's always this weird tension that exists in my world between, let's call it the business drive, the artistic drive, and where they merge and where they don't converge. So, you know, obviously this is a huge part of your family story, your grandfather leaving Disney going off on his own, ultimately coming back. I'm curious, did they have some personal relationship in the time that your grandfather was away from Disney?

Disney or was it until he came back that they kind of made peace? Was it? You know, I don't know for sure. I think that they probably had, were in the same circles and events and things like that. And I think it was, you know, probably more apart because Walt had now replaced with a handful of other animators. It took him a whole staff of people to replace one guy. Somebody could spin that as a, as a, as a bit or, you know, you didn't work. and now you've got to come back to me.

Another person could see it as like, well, they had this really beautiful relationship. They rekindled their artistic partnership. And part of the story that I read was, and I kind of know what cursory in a cursory way, is that your grandfather said, look, I really am more interested in the technical innovation side of this equation. Right.

And he goes on and becomes a significant contributor to the success of Disney from 1940 on. Right. So I think that's a cool story. But again, it's how those stories play within the family. That's what fascinates me. seem a strange tact, but... Yeah, no, I think he was excited to go back.

I think he got burnout on animation, and I think that he was always this genius and, you know, innovator, and I think he really enjoyed solving problems, and I think he enjoyed creating, and, you know, and he and Walt had a very strong relationship for the rest of their lives, and, you know, there's many stories of them just talking in the hallway and coming out with ideas, and Walt's saying, you know, that amazing, you know,

I always call it like the yin and yang, like when Walt had an idea, Ub would be there to figure it out. And when Ub came up with something, Walt would figure out of use for it. Yeah. And so I think that's a gift, too, that Roy and Walt had their dynamic,

and then Walt had the Ub dynamic. But, you know, Walt had a lot of people that were amazing collaborators throughout his life. It wasn't just, they just happened to be early on. but, you know, overall, was a big contributor to the Disney films and the Disney parks and the donations and the cost savings and the awards.

In your understanding of the story, when does the first sort of like he really, because there's a quote in the Disneyland Handcrafted where I think it's Diane Disney, she's talking, and she's saying, you know, my whole childhood, my father was talking about this idea of a theme park. But is there sort of an official year,

where it's like it becomes a possible reality? Well, I think in the early 50s, when he started experimenting with, you know, the idea of an amusement park across the street. Yeah. And in... Did he get turned down? Wasn't that part of the story?

I think they turned him down. But it also was too small. Yeah. You know, proved itself too small. So, again, you know, he needed a larger space. So, you know, they searched all over. and I became the space. So, because I looked up to see your grandfather's involvement in Disneyland and your father's

involvement in Disneyland and most of the things that are cited are sort of on the later side of the equation. So, but obviously the film deals with the genesis of Disneyland and the frantic one-year build that goes on and that's really beautifully done. But is there a personal sort of story from the family side of like, you know, did your grandfather think he was crazy? you know what I mean? No, I think he thought this is exciting

and he was there to figure it out. I think there was a story about how they met in the hallway and Walt, this was eight, I mean, almost eight months prior to the park opening apparently, or right around there. And he said, there's a, you know, that was during the time when you had the widescreen format in films and VistaVision and whatnot.

Yeah. And Walt said, I'd love to come up with something that was 360. Like, so we could just do that and see it all around us. And he said, do you think you could figure that out? We could do it for Tomorrowland by the time it opens. That was eight months away. And this is a totally unproven, uninvented, non-invented project.

And so he said, give me a couple of days, came back and to Walt and said, I think I got to, we'd do it. So we figured out the Circoramama camera system. And then not only invented an entire camera system, but a projection system. And they went out and made the film all within eight months. And that was the beginning of circarama and Circle Vision. Yeah. One other thing that's worth asking is, I think, I hope, is your father being so young at this juncture of the park coming together?

Was he around the park when he was a kid? Like before it opened, you know. No, he was on 20,000 leagues under the sea. Oh, okay. He was in the Bahamas for three months and then came back and was in the camera department. And so he was working on all sorts of camera stuff. He wasn't as directly involved in like the, obviously, the construction.

But he was filming Tour of the West as part of that camera group. Okay. So he was traveling for that film across the country. Okay. So talk a bit about Disneyland Handcrafted, because I saw where you were talking about the decision that you made if you want to explore that. It's, you know, they had all this archival footage that most of, most of it had never been seen of them making the park.

And a lot of it had never been really transferred well. So you got like high-grade transfers. And so footage that had never been seen in color, but it only been sitting on the Disneyland TV show and stuff like that. But the decision that you made to really make it sort of an immersive experience about the park building and you didn't do the classic just talking head. And even your resistance to using still photos and stuff. Can you talk about that?

Yeah. So when we were doing the imaginary story, we came upon this footage and, well, it was in the archives and we had it transferred to, brought to, or, you know, converted to us. And just going through it, it was so cool to see all this, these details of people working. And, and Mo and Mark, my collaborators, Mo Stobie, Mark Catalina, said, well, what if we did something that's just archival? And we can, like, just sit in it. And I thought, well, that's really cool. do we have enough material to sustain a narrative story? And we did a proof of concept seven minutes or so,

and he added sound effects. And it was really neat because we added these scenes. You know, like the reels that were there were all over the map, meaning like you would have a shot from February in 19504 in one shot on the same reel. And then the next shot would be like something from later that year in a totally different part of the land. And so it was all sporadic. And so we had to literally cut up each reel

and put it in bins and chronology and time. Wow. And figure out, okay, here's the Mark Twain scene of them pulling the Mark Twain, but it's across, you know, 20 different reels. So we had to like really forensically go through each thing and organize it. And then once you found that Mark Twain now

has 30 different angles and shots of the same thing. And then you can cut it. Now we can build a whole scene. And so that was the magic of what Mo did was to be able to find it, source it, put it together, organize it. And then we got the support of what I called our brain trust, which is, you know, Tom Morris and Don Hahn and Tim O'Day and Tony Baxter and Pete, Dr. Jonas Rivera, Becky Klein from the archives. and we ended up, we, they ended up supporting our effort to figure out what was what, you know, where was this, where was that? And Tony and Tom especially really know the Disney history. So they were able to just go, that shot is actually out of sequence or it's out of time, it's earlier, you know.

And so that was a really great support for our, for us, who we had a really good handle on it because we had, slates a lot of times to know what year these these shots were done but um the there was a lot of stuff that wasn't slated and so you have to figure out okay what when was it and you'd have to look in the background and say okay well what status what's the status of the castle castle is kind of marking point for us yeah if it was you know really you know uh undeveloped then we knew it was earlier in the year. Yeah. So we used certain markers in the background as ways to,

to, you know, know where things were. Was there, um, is, was the intention for shooting the building of Disneyland footage strictly for the Disneyland TV show? Or was it there was some other reason or it was just like, we should cover this or, because it seems a little scatter shot. Yeah, it was, for everything I, from everything I know, it was from the, for the TV show. Um, but I'm sure. sure Walt wanted documentation just for other things down the road and just to have it.

But they didn't use so much of this footage, you know, for other things. Yeah. And I think it just, you know, and Tony Baxter really had kind of discovered this footage 20 years ago in the film archives with some of the staff there, Ed Holman and Scott McQueen, other people like that that knew about it, but there was never any. you know, use for it or people weren't aware of it or, you know, what have you. I think Tony put it out on the internet, but it was just this low-res file. And what we were able to do was get it all transferred at the highest resolution and then look at each shot and then sequence it

together in scenes and create a narrative story with it with the counten out of time, but then also intercutting it with the TV show so that you could see that there was this public figure of Walt Disney promoting this park at the same time, the stress on the ground and the dirt was insane. And so it was that dichotomy of like, hey, everybody, we're putting on a show. And then the reality is everyone's sweating it at the park. Yeah. And that's kind of the dichotomy that we wanted to Well, there's that moment in the early in the dock where it's just dirt. Yeah. And I think you put like one year before the open. Ten months. Something like that, 10 months. And you just go, that's insane.

Yeah. Like it's truly insane. It is, especially from today's perspective, but even back then it was insane. Yeah, so, yeah, there we, I mean, especially with today's building codes and everything. Yeah, yeah, Oshah wasn't around. But it's a total impossibility in today's world. There's no way. But even just setting that aside, just the idea of building anything in 10 months from the dirt.

Right. To an opening. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, exactly. Exactly. it's just striking when you see it visually. So I think it's a beautiful visual representation of just the madness of the whole. Right.

It was madness, really. Also, can you talk a little bit about, because the footage was all silent and your decision to sort of create a, and what struck me, and maybe you don't make this connection is, is, you know, your grandfather was so intimately involved with the silly symphony and this idea of merging music and sound. And here you are all these years later taking this silent footage. and basically building a not just a musical soundtrack, but a soundtrack of special effect, that sound. But, you know, steam hammers and to create the virtual immersion into the building of this thing. Well, I never really put that together.

When we said it, it kind of struck me because I thought, well, that's really interesting, right? Well, they did Steamboat Willie, which was the first sound. That's what I'm saying. I thought, wow, that's kind of funny. Yeah, that they figured out how to do sound to film, to animated film. But this was, all credit goes to Bonnie,

Wild at Skywalker, you know, and the folks there, the Foley team and everything. I mean, I always knew that Skywalker was the place to go to do this and I'd work with them before. But, you know, taking an entire 70 plus minute cut that's complete overall silent film and putting every single sound effect to every single thing you see, a tripod getting put down on a platform or a people walking or shoveling or cement getting plopped onto the ground. I mean, all that was just handcrafted. Wow. And it was... It's seamless because I only know after I watched the doc that it was silent. Yeah, and it was funny. At no point that I think it didn't feel strange. Right. And it was very laboriously done, painstakingly done by Bonnie. I mean, she really went to town. And

I remember the first time she showed it to me when I went up there. She goes, I'm kind of nervous. You know, I hope you like it. And she was so demure about it. Yeah. You know, and I thought, are you kidding? I'm going to love it. And I was blown away when I saw it. And I thought, how in the world did she do this, you know?

And it is like an animated film in a way that, you know, she works on Pixar movies. So she, an animated film. So she knows. So you live in that. Yeah. You know, it's kind of the same. I'm fascinated with Disneyland. This is sort of a kind of a sociological experiment, this idea that he has this

stream, he builds this theme park. And of course, it's turned into a very robust business with Universal and, you know, there's theme parks all over the world now, including Disney parks. But this idea that it becomes this almost like, I read somewhere where many people don't understand about Walt's vision for Disneyland was he wanted you to be in the movie. I saw where an Imagineer talked about that. So I'm just curious for your thoughts as somebody who kind of grew up, you know, around the Disney world. but also the park, you know, this idea of Disneyland is this kind of magical place. You know, it's like a, I don't know, it's like a place of transformation or something, but I know not everybody sees it that way, but that's the way I see it. Yeah, it's a, it's, I think the goal is to leave your, for Walt anyway, it was to leave your worries at the gate, come on in and enjoy a whole new world of different lands and different realms that you could experience and be inspired by and learn, learn from, and enjoy the characters that you've seen in the TV show, I mean, in the,

in the animated films and the TV shows, actually, that you can meet them and you could get a photo with them. And it's this walk-through experience that you can walk through the castle and you can live in these worlds. And it was the first immersive theme park, I think, by far. I mean, yeah, compared to what came before. Yeah, the Coney Islands and the, you know, I mean, even Knott's Berry Farm, which Walt loved,

and he was friends with the owner, you know, the owners, the Knott's. And Nott's was, in a sense, a theme park too, but it wasn't based on IP that was known around the world, right? Yeah. So I think what I've always found fascinating is this idea of vertical integration from a business model standpoint that Walt did. It was taking this IP and then now he can put it into the parks and now people can experience that IP in a completely different way. And I don't like the word IP, but these characters, these beloved characters and stories that people can experience and live and breathe. And that is a whole other way of living and breathing these stories. And that has, that in and of itself was a brilliant business model that hadn't been done before and now lives on all these years later around the world. And now the Imagineers, Disney are completely taking all these brands, all these stories and all these characters that we've loved for decades

and now pushing the envelope with the technology and always trying to, you know, be ahead of the technology so that we can experience them in even greater ways. Since you've made the documentary, do you look at Disneyland differently now? I mean, when you go there, do you see it differently? I do, actually. I do.

I think I was in the thick of this project when I was doing, down there for the 70th anniversary party. And I just remember looking at Main Street and going, look at which brick was at? And, you know, it looks so much, it looks so similar to what it hasn't changed. And I think that nostalgia and that, I think for fans, they love the fact that so much of this is still there.

It hasn't been torn down or redone or whatever. It's Walt's Disneyland is still intact. and hopefully it always will be that his castle, his main street, the things that he loved, his rivers of America will always be there because this was Walt's DNA. Yeah. I can never, is it the word kerfuffle? Is that the right word? Do you know that word curfuffle? You know, there's a kerfuffle going on right now because they've decided to change Disney World. They've taken out the river and they're putting in a new car's attraction. I guess the question I'm after is something along the line. of like, do you think that the evolution of the park is a necessity, it's inevitable that the original vision should be left intact? I'm more of a purist, so I like that the park, I like as much of Walt's vision intact as possible. Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I know the imaginers, you know, have that at the top of their minds all the time with every major change that they do. And I know this one was was not taken lightly. And I know that it's very controversial. And a lot of people are upset about it. And a lot of people are like, okay, you know, this is what Walt would have done to.

If there's a certain area of the parks that weren't working well, he would change him out, you know. I see. And he always did. And he always, the DNA, the blueprint of Disneyland is that, well, it never stopped changing as long as imagination is left in the world. It doesn't say even in the, like, it's never going to stop. Yeah. I think it may be even in the opening speech or something. He says something about it.

Right. It's always going to change. So that, that in and of itself is a brilliant. thing to say because he's people can't argue with them that yeah future generations are going to take take take something out and then and then change it because he's built that into the constitution of dizzianland you know and and so that is what i think gives the latitude for many for many changes throughout the world and it's just the way it is and you know i mean he changed out tomorrow land you know while he was still alive and

Um, there's a lot of things that went away after that first opening day in the next five, 10 years. He was changing things out, tearing stuff out. I'm sure people are upset then too. Yeah. Um, if you can step aside from your, your, your family connection, do you think credit in, in a story like this is important or do you think at the end of the day it's really just about that it happened? Does that make sense? I know it's a weird way to ask the question. In what way? What, what happened? Well, like, is that, do, is it important? like, is it as simple as people should know who drew Mickey Mouse or who designed this or, you know, because you've also told the Imagineer's stories. Is it important that we know who is in the band making the song? I think so. Where most people focus on the lead singer, you know what I mean? I think it's important to always give credit what credit is due. Yeah. And I think that is something I feel the Disney company is doing more and more now. And, but I think that that's important. because it's not just one person.

There might be one main leader, but that one leader is not strong without his band. Yeah, because there's this thing that happened after Walt died where they would have meetings and they would be literally sitting there saying, what would Walt do? And the kind of company went to this rudderless form for a while. And I think that gets to the heart of why there's even a kerfuffle

over the removing of the rivers of America. At Disney World, because it's like it gets into the, idea of like, well, now are you erasing Walt from the parks? And so that's why I guess I'm asking the credit question more and the broader question of like, is, is, are the people who built it, does their say still matter? Or is it understood that it's an evolving thing because it's ultimately a business thing? So, well, I mean, the people that built it are no longer around. Yeah. So they wouldn't have anything to say. But I'm sure that they would, I don't know, I can't speak for other people. Again, it's a controversial move that wasn't taken lightly. And I think that...

Yeah, I'm not asking a way in the contrary. Just, you know, I'm not interested in that. It's really not the premise of my show. It's more the idea of, I guess, because, you know, like I told you, I think it's talked a little bit before we started rolling cameras. It's like I found myself being fascinated with Disney. Disney was born, well, I should say it the other way around, I was born about a mile away from where Walt was born. And Walt's time, as youth in Chicago, was not very well known, and it's mostly about when he moved to Kansas and all that. But, you know, I always found Disney fascinating.

I went to Disneyland the first time in 1974, and he's always been kind of this kind of a, I guess the most modern comparison would be like an Elon Musk figure, where it's like, even if you don't agree with them, they become a visionary, maybe visionary figure. I always, as an artist, resonated with Walt, is a visionary figure, even though I didn't love everything Walt touched. I'm not one of those.

It's more of like the idea that you can execute a dream into vision. Yeah, I would never compare Walt Disney to Elon Musk in any way as far as, like, I think I would compare Walt to Steve Jobs. Okay. Because of just more of that positive ideals and how you can change the world and a better way. And I think what Walt envisioned was that the world could be a happier place and that he wanted to create happiness and that he can improve humanity through all the things that he did and he did. And I think Steve Jobs did as well. And so, you know, I think his idea

for everything visionary, you know, everything that he did, to me, will you look back on and you think, what CEO in history has created more happiness than Walt Disney? I mean, you answer that. I don't know.

He wins, I think. Yeah. That's what I'm saying, for me as an artist, I see him as a visionary figure, and then I want to study the things he had a hand in because I want to understand how you execute that dream into reality.

Because ultimately, if you're an artist, you have to navigate somebody's idea of what success is, somebody's idea of financing is. You know, there's always this uneasy relationship between artists and kings, you know. Right. And in your own family's story with your grandfather, you know, he was part of the origination of this incredible dream, left, came back, and then, you know, had a significant contribution. So, you know, part of that is, you know, that relationship between, and that's why I ask about credit, is like, is it important that people know your grandfather's name, including any of your father's name because they're part of this story? Or is it ultimately just about if people are happy and I know it's a bit of a dreamy question. I think it's both. I mean, I think, you know, when you work at the company, you're part of a whole tribe of people who are doing this or aligned to create the, the thing that is what Disney is, which is to create happiness and to innovate and to come up with new stories. And so you are part of a global entertainment company and you are important in that world. And there are a lot of people that get more credit than others. But yeah, the reality is that it is, I think it's important for both. I think it's important for up to get credit. I think it's important for a lot of people at Pixar to get credit. And yeah. You know, I think, it's my own personal fascination.

Yeah, I apologize. I'm not trying to put anything on you. No, I think it's important to get credit. And I also think it's important that it's also you are part of a group. Yeah. Your team is the team effort. That's why I said I'm the nerd who, when I first started seeing your grandfather's name and a lot of Disney stuff, I thought, well, I need to know his story too. So I took it upon myself to learn, you know, what's called cursory knowledge, but learn about, you know, his contribution.

And I started to realize there's this whole phalanx of people. around Walt that, you know, it happens a lot with rock and roll. You know, what do they say? Success has many masters and failure has but one. So last thing I want to ask you is because, you know, growing up in Chicago, a place like Disneyland, a place like the Disney studios, it's like it is magical, and I believe it's magical, but it's also the idea of like, wow, what it must have been like to be a kid wandering around, you know, in the Disney studio, but you have those experiences.

You were actually on movie sets and you saw things happening. And so if you could just talk about it, it's just, to me, it's fascinating. Yeah, I think whenever you have a world that you're, you know, allowed to immerse yourself into, that was a wake-up for me as to the behind-the-scenes of how things are done. And it was, that was the magic for me, was being behind the scenes.

And then going to the park behind the scenes, going to the studio, a lot behind the scenes. And just kind of having that perspective. was, I think, important for me in my genesis as a filmmaker and going to film school and wanting to do that. And my dad was very much a teacher for me. He wanted to teach me about cameras and show me how cameras worked.

And he was an inventor and he was developing, you know, large format camera systems and all sorts of different things. And so I would sit over his shoulder and say, tell me what you're up to. And I'd look at his CAD drawings and he'd explain it in great detail. And I would be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But yeah, I mean, he inspired me in many ways, artistically and creatively and creatively.

Yeah. And really encourage that. So the last thing I want to ask you is, what's your dream project? Do you have a dream project? Oh, I wish I could tell you. Okay, they don't tell me. I have several that I'm working on now. Well.

And when they're ready to be announced, I'll let you know. I wish you allowed a luck. Thank you, bless you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.