The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Malcolm McDowell | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with screen icon Malcolm McDowell for a masterclass on craft and legacy—from Lindsay Anderson’s “If” to becoming Stanley Kubrick’s Alex in “A Clockwork Orange”. McDowell shares the real casting story, Kubrick’s process, why “2001” still stuns, and how a single “trance” look became an era-defining image. They dig into Shakespeare and Olivier lore, Eric Burdon, the redemption of “Caligula”, the charm of “Time After Time”, and hard-won wisdom on dodging typecasting and surviving fame. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I could see him struggling. He didn't really... He was in two minds whether he was going to tell me. What the title was? Well, what is it? He said, clockwork orange. Somebody asked me how I got to be cast, and I went, oh, I think he saw if.

Stanley looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex. Wow. I read it again, and I knew that it was... one of the great parts. Let's play the music and I'll see. And it was a sort of an intentionally

and he was laughing so hard. He went, oh, that's it, that's it, that's great. You made the right decision because you're still here. I reading the New York Times best and worse lists. I have one film, Bonnie. Malcolm McDowell, thank you so much.

You honor me by being. being here. So I'm going to go out on a limb, but you tell me if I'm wrong. You've talked about Clockwork Orange about a hundred times more than you've ever talked about the movie if. Is that close? Or is you want to give me a better ratio? Well, you know, Clockwork is the jewel in the crown, as I say. It's an amazing movie. And yes, I've talked about it ad nauseum. And so what I try and do occasionally now is zen myself back to sort of arriving

in the car to shoot and seeing Stanley in his big kind of Parker thing regardless of the weather by the way and then he had a dark blazer

a blue shirt and grey pants and he wore that for a year and I said Have you got six pairs of everything? Really? No. I think. I don't know.

Maybe you had two, but he considered dress to be of minimal importance. But here's a man who would import up a palm tree from Vietnam or something, you know what I mean? Well, he put it, you know, he was absolutely brilliant on the technical side. side. Anything technical, Stanley was the man. You could argue the greatest ever on that level. Without a question, I mean, 2001 is one of the most extraordinary feats of special effects ever, and it took, you know, science fiction on a millennium jump before Stanley, there was basically Flash Gordon and Carboard sets.

Yeah. And Stanley went into the whole philosophical aspect of it. And made it a very, even though it was very antiseptic in many ways, it was also very moving and touching in a weird way. Of course, the only person really with any character was across a computer. Well, we're in that now in our AI world. Yeah.

Yeah, I saw recently, maybe in the last five years they did in Hollywood, a 70-millimeter print, a film print, reissue of 2001. Stunning. I saw it on 70-mill. Right. And it was remarkable because a lot of those movies, the special effects date pretty bad. Yeah. Somehow it held up.

Well, because it wasn't computer generated, it was models. Yeah. They were brilliantly done. Yeah. And he had the most amazing special effects team. They won the Academy Award, of course. I think Stanley kept it. Yeah.

So let's talk about if, because this is a movie dear to my heart, and it certainly launched you and then sets up the clockwork orange jewel in the crown moment. You're doing 12th night. I saw where you said you were playing the worst character in Shakespeare wrote. I say that with... Is that Sebastian? Tung in my cheek. Yes, Sebastian in 12th night.

I was going to ask you with what... One great speech. And right after the interval, and, you know, when they've just come out of the bar, one great speech to shut them up, and that's it. But, you know, as a young actor, I've never done a film, of course, to work at the Royal Court was really, you know,

an achievement because the Royal Court was where, you know, looked back in anger started. It's where all the great avant-card playwrights worked. Joe Orton, for instance. Okay. All of Joe Orton's was done of the court.

Oh, I didn't know that, okay. The court was like the greatest avant-garde theater. And I wanted desperately to work there. Of course, I get there, and it's not avant-garde at all. It's Shakespeare, the oldest, creakiest old, author of all. But it was the whole thing where they do like a modern version of the... It wasn't, it was only modern in the dress.

Okay. The text was, of course, Shakespeare. Sure. And... How do you... Just to somebody who's done Shakespeare, how do you feel about when they do this kind of weird adaptations? Are you cool with that? Do you like it or... It's okay. I mean, look, there's plenty of room for everything. Sure. And we've seen, you know, straight plays, this, that, everyone's... But I love Corey, is it Coriolanus? I never said... I love Corey Linens. Yeah.

And there's a cool version like the BBC did that you can find. I think one of the coolest versions, actually, Helen did. Helen Mirren did with, may have been Tony Hopkins. I'm not sure about that, but it was a while ago, of course. Are you sure that wasn't when they did Tempest? No. Okay. Because there's like some word.

Oh, no. Tony did the Tempest here in LA at the Mark Taper. I saw it. Okay. I went round and he went, Oh, Jesus. I knew, I knew some being. I go, what?

He goes, oh, darling, I just, I just speeded through the thing. I just got to get out of here. And he literally did speed read it. It was fast. But, you know, that's the one way of doing it. Yeah, no, just because this version of Cori Linus that's out there that, I think it's so many time it's ever been turned into a film that I know of. I've never seen the film.

They do it as like a narco-terrorism. like South American gangs. Well, it's like when they did, Ian McKellen did Richard the Third, which was absolutely brilliant, you know. And they did it like the Nazis party. Oh, I've never seen that. Was it a player? It is amazing with one of the great performances from...

But is it a player or a movie? It was a play. Okay. And they made a movie of it. Oh, okay. And it's amazing. It's really... Oh, fantastic.

Shakespeare movies you'll ever see. Right. And is it as good as Olivier's? No. Nothing is as good as that. By the way, a story, please. About that, because it's kind of fun. This was told by John Mills,

who was a great friend of Larry. We'll call him Larry Olivier. And he was opening first time in Richard III. And John Mills was organizing the part. afterwards after the first night and or this is the first performance anyway so John Mills thought I'll pop in and see sir you know before just make sure everything's okay we're okay for the party he goes in there Olivier's like this in front of the mirror and he sees him and he goes oh darling Jesus Christ don't cancel the party

the party's off I haven't got a clue how to this part, this director's useless. And he's going into this whole thing, and of course, John Mills, a little first night thing or whatever. Okay, don't worry, okay, we'll cancel. Don't worry, you'll feel better. Don't even worry about it, you know. John Mills said, he went out to watch the performance.

This was Lawrence Olivier, spontaneously finding the character of Richard the third as you watched it. You will never, ever see that ever again because it happens in rehearsal. Yeah. You never see it, not when it's found. Yeah. And he said it was one of the most brilliant things that he'd ever seen.

Do you know what he was struggling with? God knows. Oh, okay. Yeah. But, you know, he had great time. when he just blocked, you know. I mean, it's well-known that he did. And I understand that.

And I used to think, there but for the grace of God, go I. Because it happened to another brilliant actor who I really liked very much. I was very fond, and we were sort of friends, Ian Holm. Okay. Ian Holm was the best Henry V. I ever saw. I was in it moving furniture and had two lines. And I used to watch him every performance from the wings I'd watch Ian

when he did the wooing scene with the princess of princesses of France and the this, all the great scenes. And I just thought, wow, it's one of the great performances. It's funny, so I haven't seen him for many a long time. And I was walking down Notting Hill Gate. And I bumped into him and I went, Ian, oh my God. And he'd known that I'd done if, you know, I was playing tiny parts the last time. So he goes, hey, oh, Malcolm, God, it's great to see you.

So, hey, you know, well done on everything. And what are you working on? I went, oh, I'm doing this thing for this guy called Stanley Kubrick. And he goes, and I saw him. recoil. And I said, what's up? Did I say something? He goes, no, just be careful of him. I went, why may I ask? He said, well, that strung me along to do Napoleon for 18 months. And he goes, after 18 months, it was supposed to go and do and start. I'd had all the fittings and all this and all that.

He goes, and suddenly, not a call. I tried to call him many times. The phone was always dead. He said he didn't even have the wherewithal to pick up the phone and say, I'm sorry, I couldn't get the dough. We've had to postpone. And he just cut him off.

Wow. And, of course, having worked with him, I totally understand. Well, the kids call these days ghosted. You got ghosted. Oh, is that it? Yeah, they call ghosted. It's like when people suddenly don't return your texts anymore.

Oh, I see. That's what it is. Well, I've heard it, I've heard it, but I never hear what I was. It means you don't exist anymore. Oh, wow. In the digital world, sense of the word. Wow, do people do that? Oh, yeah.

They do it to me. Oh, well. How dare they? Why would they do it to you? Oh, I'm sure they have good reasons. I mean, people are cruel these days. in a new way. Well, people have always been cruel, let's face it.

But I said in a new way. This is what I'm saying. They found a new way to be cruel. Ah, okay. You see, when you have... No, I get it. You have an instant constant attention thing with the phone. When it goes cold, it's like it's almost unfathomable with it.

You mean when there's no calls coming in? We grew up in a time when, you know, if you couldn't get to the pay phone, well, you just dealt with it. You know, or the pay phone would be dead or something. you'd have to wait till you got home to call somebody. We got used to those lapses of time. In the modern era, a minute is a long time if somebody doesn't respond.

Really? I don't respond. Right away. I mean, if somebody texts me, I'll look at it and chew it over. I don't even respond immediately. And I remember one guy sent me this whole thing about something he'd seen that I'd done. And he went into this whole diatribe of white, He thought it was great and what I did and what a, which was news to me.

Yeah. Because I just did it, right? I wasn't trying to break it down. I just did it. And so at the end of it, I just sent him a thumbs up. Yeah. And sent it back. And he goes, that's all I get.

And I thought, well, yeah, that's all you get. I didn't ask for your comments. I once wrote Eric Burden of the animals a long letter. He's my dearest friend. Had no idea. So you'll... I saw him last nine. Oh, God bless him.

I wrote him this long thing. I made sure he got to him through somebody. It was probably an email, but I wrote him a long letter. Okay. Of appreciation. As a fellow musician. Yeah. I've also covered one of his songs.

And first song ever learned how to play on guitar was House of the Rising Sun because I love the animals version. And so I think... It's the greatest. And his voice, one of the greatest. He's one of the most underappreciated musical artist ever. Yes. His influence in putting people together and all of it, including working more and Jimmy and all things.

So I run this long, loving thing, which was like, I just want to let you know as a fellow musician and here's who I am. And I assume he, because I covered his music, he had some sense of who I was. And all I got back was, wow, man. Well, but again, but I'm saying, did you go? Oh, that's a bit. It was a bit much. But from him, a wow man, knowing him, wow, man, that was. Yeah, like something out of San Francisco's message, wow, man.

Wow. So I stayed on the positive with it. Wow, man. Well, but please send in my regards. How nice we had fun. I hope so. But I can tell you from him, he'll give you a bit more than a wow man. We love it.

I love to have him to sit here and talk to him privately. I just think he's one of the most underappreciated musicians of all time, at least in our modern times. He was John Lennon's favorite singer. I can see why. I wonder why. And he's the egg man, you know that. I did not know that.

I thought I knew all my Beatles lore. Yeah. Let's get back to you for a second. Yeah, okay. Because I think, obviously, most people run to the brightest side of the room, which is clockwork orange and, it's easy to talk about it. Well, we were talking about if.

That's why I'm saying. I want to talk about if, because I think if is just as important because it's one of those seminal sort of moments in time that like sort of unleashes the energy that sets up all these other things. And of course, and you tell me because you were there, Kubrick sees you and if and basically he's like, there it is.

And he just basically transplants that you and that guy into the... And a lot of the film, by the way, was definitely, Definitely inspired by Lindsay Anderson's if. Okay, start here. How did Lindsay feel about that interpolation? Okay, I'll tell you what happened. He saw it in New York because he was there getting the money for Oh, Lucky Man. Sure.

And so, of course, a lot of talk about Clockwork Orange, and Lindsay had heard a lot about it. And he'd also given me the key to playing the part, but that's another story. But so I got a telegram which said, Dear Mark, saw clockwork, not my cup of tea, but you were brilliant. Now, I knew that, of course, he could never say another director was brilliant. Sure.

It would have been like pulling teeth. Also, they were so different in human terms that Lindsay was, you know, a people person. He loved artists, he loved actors. He actually loved actors. A director that loved actors is a rare thing indeed and sits with them and talk to them and cajole them. I mean, I saw the thing that you did.

I don't know how to quantify it. I mean, it was a documentary, but it was also kind of a one-man show talking about your relationship. It was my love letter to him. You're beautiful, fantastic. I mean, I wish somebody would do that for me some days. Yeah.

Well, somebody said, why don't you do it for Stanley? And I said, because there's nothing there, really. There's nothing poetic about Stanley. Yeah. I mean, yes, he's a genius if you want to talk about, you know, lighting and microphones and all that. But on the human side, to play, that would only last 20 minutes. Yeah. So that's kind of why I wanted to talk about if, because if is the key to this, I'm not a filmmaker, but to me, if provided Stanley Kubrick with the key of what he needed to make clockwork orange, why it was so successful.

Well, after he passed away, I was asked to go with Christiana, his widow, to Australia to open this museum. event of Kubrick's movies and life. Okay. And I said, I'd be happy to do there. Of course, I'll go. And we went out together, and I saw a lot of her for the week that we were there. And I was doing, you know, Q&A things, and I didn't really, somebody asked me how I got to be cast. And I went, oh, I think he saw if.

That was all I knew. And so Christiana said, oh, Malcolm, no. What happened was the film was the red-hot thing in London. Everybody was talking about if. And Stanley had a projectionist on 24-7 standby, got Paramount to bring out the reels of film to watch it. And they were all there watching it at the house. She goes, you made your first entrance. Stanley hit the intercom and said,

relase that. Let's see that again. Four times. After the fourth time, and I'm shaving my mustache off when I've grown it in the holidays, you know, back to college school, this oppression, this...

And Stanley looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex. Wow. Yeah. She told me. I was quite moved, actually. I was like, and of course, an actor would never know that.

You know, so all I got was this director wants to meet you. And I went, well, I'm shooting. He goes, yeah, you can go in your lunch hour. I went, oh, well, luckily, the film I was shooting was in Elstree, and he lived next, he lived there, Boreham Wood, which is quite a way outside London on Northern. London. And so I went to see him in my lunch hour and he took me into a small little study that had a TV and a sofa and that was about it. And we chatted. And I thought, wow,

what an interesting guy. You know, he had these amazingly black, intelligent eyes that were kind of mesmerizing, actually. And I told him, you know, I'm doing this film with Brian Forbes and blah, blah, blah. He goes, oh, yes, I know Brian. I mean, he has a very nice guy and we're having fun. And so I went, and, oh, Stanley, I have actually got to be back because I'm first up after lunch. And I stood up, and he just looked at me. And I said, was there anything special that you wanted to see me about. And he said, well, yeah. Have you heard of this book? I went, which book? And it was, I could see him struggling. He didn't really, he was in two minds whether he was going to tell me. What the title was? Well, what is it? He said, clockwork orange. I went, doesn't ring a bell.

He went, really? It's a real cult thing. I went, well, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't know. It's not my cult. Then I don't know. I've never heard of it. He goes, well, he goes, look, here's the book. I want you to read it and call me. I went, okay, okay, we'll do. You know I'm shooting a film, right? He goes, yeah, okay. So I went, thank you very much. And I'd see you, so I go back. Of course, I can't read it right away. I'm learning lines and stuff. So then I start on it And I thought, God, this is a tough read. What does all this mean? And I'm looking at the back and the glossary and, you know.

Yeah. Anyway, I struggle through the first read. And I thought, there's no way you can make a film. And then I thought, I better read it again. Now, the next time was a lot easier. And I thought to myself, oh, God, this is extraordinary. And I thought, I better read it one. more time because he's going to grill me or something. I read it again and I knew that it was

one of the great parts. So I picked up the phone now a week had gone by. I said, Stanley, he went, yes, I said, it's Malcolm. Look, I read the book. He went, oh, I thought you would have called days ago. And I said, yes, no, no, no. It's just, I wanted to really read it very thoroughly, and I read it three times. He went, oh, well, what do you think? I went, well, I think it's remarkable. And now, having heard this story from Ian Holm. Right. So you knew this then. I said, so Stanley, are you offering me the part? And he's a little. And he's, As you know it was the part, meaning like, there's any one part. Okay, but I'm just saying you felt that, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I said, are you offering me the part? There was silence. It's funny because, sorry to interrupt, but it. Yeah. It's almost funny because, like, the way you're portraying, it's almost like a scene from the movie.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, life. It imitates art, yeah. Absolutely. So there was silence. And I thought, well, I'm going to wait this one out. And he said, yes.

That low. Yes. And when I got to know him, I realized that that, for him to say that, was pulling teeth. Yeah. He would never say you've got the part because he'd be terrified. I'd use it against him in the negotiation. Yeah. It was a control free?

But of course, I was a naive kid. I did it for... And then he goes, he called me. I said, yes, I'll do it. But I want to meet you. You'll have to come to my house. Not knowing the guy never leaves his house. I had no idea.

So I lived in Kensington, Notting Hill, Kensington. At the end of a cul-de-sac. And at the time he's supposed to be there, I'm looking out of my window up the street, because I was at the very end, I see a Mercedes followed by a land rover, a white land rover. It's the one they used in the thing where the police are in it. That one, drive up.

And I see this guy get out. And they're looking around. I open the door and I went, are you looking for me? Yeah. I went, Stanley? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He comes into my, I had this incredible space. He looks at it and he goes, wow, we could use the cat lady here.

We could shoot it. I went, nah, not in my house. The first thing he said, yes. Yeah. So, anyway, then we talked about it a little bit, I guess, and that's how it all started, the journey. And he did, the journey with Stanley was, he did all the directing of me,

before we ever turned the camera. Okay. He got to know me, my sense of humor, my sensibilities, before we started shooting. Yeah. And then when we started shooting, I remember since I said, how, what do you want me to do? I mean, we've talked about this, we've talked about that,

everything else, you know, where you're going to get these lights from, from Germany, and where you're going to get this. I said, but I'm playing the guy. I need more information. Who is this guy? He goes, that's why I hired you and walked off. Oh, nice. I remember saying to him once, I know why you love Peter Seller so much,

because he'd just do four or five different little things in you, and he'd go pick one. Pick one, yeah. Yeah. I saw a reference, and I think it was in your love letter to Lindsay, this idea of the surrealist, the goddess, and the influence, was that coming from you, or did I read that somewhere? But it's the idea that there was this movement afoot of cultural subversion

and obviously that flows in the clockwork, but going back to if for a second, were you aware of this kind of movement around you? No. You know, really, I'm just a very instinctive kind of actor. I was not trained. I didn't go to Rada. Oh, I went in for this funny little things at Lambda, but I never actually had a teacher,

except this old lady in Liverpool who was very charming, but I went to her simply to listen to her talk about her experiences as a silent movie star. Okay. Do you remember who it was? Yes, Mrs. Harold Ackley. Okay. She had a studio in the crane building.

way later, 30 years later, I found myself, maybe 20 years, I found myself at a dinner party sitting next to Rita Tushingham, who I adored. And she was a big star. You know, she'd done a taste of honey, and she was what they call at the forefront of the kitchen sink movies in England, in the 60s. And she was fantastic. She did, Sheila Delaney was the writer. a really amazing writer.

Anyway, I was talking to Rita, and we were talking, and I said, oh, I suppose you went to one of those posh, you know, acting academies or something. And she went, well, if you call Mrs. Ackley, I went, what? You went to Mrs. Harold Ackley? She went, yes, you too? I went, oh, my God, I've never known anyone else. So we were sort of jumping up and down. laughing because, of course, she did no coaching at all.

Except she'd say, when you sit down, Malcolm, you know, in the second act, you'll be sitting on the sofa, having a cup of tea, make sure the pinky is up. And I go, thank you so much. I'll make sure the pinky's up. Yeah. The reason I was poking around about your awareness of the influence of, you know, the stadaism or surrealism,

in the filmmaking of the time, and obviously was in counterculture with music as well, is, you know, the times often times pick people in my parlance out of a lineup. And I feel like the times picked you because you were the perfect embodiment of something that they were unconsciously looking for. Yes.

Did you feel that? I know just the look, my physical look, was kind of exactly what they were waiting for. Did I feel it? No. I mean, you don't feel your face. But I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes into your... I mean, it's always hard because actors are really skilled

at convincing us of something that's not real, right? That's why the actors. Yeah, of course. But with you, there was always a sense, and I have a very strong memory of seeing you in Clockwork Orange when I was 10 years old. If you felt like that guy... No.

But I'm saying to me watching. To you. Yeah. But I was acting that guy. Right. But I'm saying is... Of course, I loved that guy. I mean, I absolutely adored and loved Alex, without a question.

And I wanted to make sure that the audience loved him. Yeah. And that's why the sort of liberal press kind of attacked Stanley, well, the New York Times, had this huge piece calling him a fascist. Right. Because he'd made this immoral man into somebody that we all... That immoral man was... Yes, yes.

Just to illustrate the point slightly differently. Yeah. It's like, let's talk music for a second. Back to Eric Burton. Okay, to me, as a musician, Eric Burton is the real deal. Totally and utter... He is the real deal. Yeah.

Like up out of the street and he is the real deal. He may not be the prettiest. He's been playing those clubs in Newcastle when he was 14. Right. Okay. Now, John Lennon, okay, talented in a completely different set of ways, is becomes a sort of a form of avatar. He sort of represents something of the age.

Totally. But he's also talented enough to kind of go, oh, you want me to be this guy? Oh, you want, and that's why the Beatles, and him in particular, morphs so quickly over five, six years. Yeah. The be beards and the thing, and it's like, who are you? Yeah, yeah.

Eric Burden can't not be Eric Burton. No. John Lennon, when we think of John Lennon, it's really a composite of about 15 different John Lennon's. Yeah. And that's not to take anything away from John Lennon. You have to be very skilled. John. John was genius of the age, you know, I mean.

What I'm saying is that, I think, feel like, and I wasn't there, I was born in a 60s. I was there. I saw them as the silver Beatles. You know that, right? I did not know that. Oh. Tell me.

Well, I love me Beatles. Well, I'm from Liverpool, so I used to go to this club called the gaslight, and then the, you know, there was a few, the pink alley, the gas, like, de gas, as we called it. De gas, you're going to de gas tonight. Yeah, okay, well, I'm going to the key. Haven. Who's on? Oh, it's the Silver Beetles.

Oh, okay. So you saw him with Pete Best then. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I had a girlfriend, actually, who took me because she said, this band of great? Went okay.

Did you think they were great when you saw him? Yes. Did I think they were going to be the next, the greatest thing since Mozart? No, of course not. Yeah. Did I like that? them, there was very together for, I mean, for a little band, you know, in a tiny, I mean, the cavern was tiny.

Yeah. I mean, and, you know, all that. The wall sweating. Yes. You'd stomp. The Liverpool stomp was you'd hop from one foot to the other. That was the dance because there was no other room for anything else. But they did Chuck Berry and in the Liverpool way.

You know, they were amazing. The energy, the. And, you know, and you were drawn. I mean, the stage was only this high. Sure. So it was like at the end. And you were drawn. I was drawn to John.

Because he had a kind of dangerous curl of the lip. Yeah. He was dangerous. Yeah. Paul was beautiful and exquisite. Yeah. So to go back to my relentless analogy, Yeah.

You represented somehow on film that danger. Yes, I suppose. So as someone who stood in a very rare moment of white-hot zeitgeist. Oh, I mean, hey, how lucky was I? Yeah. Did you feel pressure to become more of that? Did it become a tightcasting thing?

No, well, I refuse to be tightcast as much as I could be. So, you know, I can't tell you how many knockoffs of Clockwork Orange I was offered in the next five years. I can only imagine. But I just went, no, no, no, it's over. Sorry, please finish. No, that's it. Had you written, oh, lucky man, before Clockwork Orange became a hit? Yes.

Okay. It was going on during the shooting of Clockwork. Okay. And we'd go around to see Lindsay, you know. Yeah. And the only reason that I started writing this thing was because I just wanted to get to work with Lindsay Anderson again, who I considered to be, you know, just absolutely a genius. I mean, not that I knew any geniuses, you know, but I'd worked with Peter Hall at the Royal Shakespeare Company and all those guys. but they weren't the real deal. They weren't.

They were posers. Lindsay Anderson, this Oxford-educated man, who was a very great man. It was like working for an Oxford Don. And he would be so honest and so interesting. Yeah. In the talks one had and about it.

And, you know, And he cajoled, I suppose, without me knowing it. And he'd say things like crazy things. Like, he'd go, of course, Malcolm, you know, you're a very Brechtian actor. And I'd say, oh, yes, well, I've been known, of course. I'm known as the Brechtian actor. I go, and what does that mean? He goes, well, it means that you will let the audience know that you're acting.

But they'll, you're going to make them believe you anyway. And I thought, wow, what a thing to say. Okay, so back to me at 10 years old watching Clockwork Orange somewhere, there was a sort of connectivity there that is rare. In my mind, I usually connect it more to music because music is so rooted in authenticity or the appearance of authenticity, where in Clockwork Orange, it's this completely, it's so out there.

But somehow you represented something that felt kind of pure in the center of it. Well, it's really, because, you know, he'd put the film to the side. He couldn't find anyone to play the part. So Stanley had discarded it. Ah. And that's why he went on to Napoleon, by the way.

The famous movie he never made. The famous movie he never made, yeah. And so interesting, yeah, that, well, you know, if to me was, I mean, I just, you know, I was just playing small parts, went to meet this great man. And we got on very well because, you know, there was no bullet from me. I'm from the north of England, fairly plain speaker. And I like to just say what's on my. mind, without being rude, of course. And we gelled. But of course, it's a long way from getting the part, you know. Sure. And I don't, you know what happened because you saw my one-man show.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious. There was electricity in the air, put it that way. Do you think Lindsay saw that zeitgeist in you? And I'm not trying to oversell it. You know, I'm saying it's like, certain people. No, he did. Okay, great. Because, you know, it came out later. He'd 98% cast that part to somebody else. And when I came in, it was a sort of end of the kind of, packing up for lunch, actually. And he went, oh, and I was late. I got there, and I said, I'm sorry, I'm like,

but, but he went, oh, okay, it's okay. I'll be happy to meet him, you know. And he jumped up on the stage and it was, and we had this chat. And he said, do you want to read it? I went, I'm so, I'll be honest, I'm so bad at auditions. He goes, ah, yes, well, you've got to work on that. I mean, I know, I know I do. You're right, because that's the first thing without a good audition.

You're dead in the water. you don't get cast. He goes, that's right. Yeah. So, yeah, he was wonderful. But so I'll tell you, because it's an interesting that I didn't really have confidence in myself to know how to play Alex right from the first go. I've been, you know, been working with Kubrick for I think six, at least six months. Really? And you still didn't know.

Yes. Six months. And I thought I knew. But when it was only a week to go and then four days, I suddenly went, well, you haven't got a thing in your locker. What the hell are you going to do? So I called Lindsay and said, Lindsay, I hate to do this to you. I know, because Lindsay had, he'd poo-pooed, Kubrick and, you know, an American cinema and blah, blah. And, of course, I was playing them both off a little bit, a little bit, saying, well, you know, Stanley would never do that. And he'd say, oh, yes, of course, Stanley, Stanley, I'm sure. And then I'd say, Stanley, you know, Lindsay, you know, he went to Oxford, of course, you know that, Stanley. And he goes, oh, oh, really?

Oh, yeah, what did he study? Oh, I think, you know, the classics. Oh, wow. Which is true, he did. Yeah, he'd give me a whole lesson on Greek theater. You know the theater comes from the Greeks, Malcolm, don't you? That is where drama started. And I thought it was the Egyptians.

No, the Greeks. Anyway, so I asked him if he would read the script. He said, bring it over. and I had to go over to his flat. Given the script, I went out while he was reading it and had a coffee, came back. And the first thing he said was, well, thank God, I don't have to direct this. I mean, I know it's not your kind of thing, but look, I just, I don't know what to do with this character. And he said, look, Malcolm, the scene in if where you open the doors to be beaten,

in the gymnasium when you're going in to meet the prefects. He goes, you look at them and you smile. He goes, that's how you play it. And I went, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Beautiful piece of advice. What an incredible piece of direction. What an extraordinary piece of direction.

Because that's all it took. Boom. First day, sailed through. Even though it was rather painful, there's certain things happen. Boom, on the second day, I forgot all about it. I couldn't remember. And I didn't remember this until a year went by. Yeah.

And I went, no, wait a minute, it was Lindsay. Oh. So you would have loved him, actually. Lindsay. Yeah. You would, he, I mean, and so entertaining, you know, I had to do these talk shows and everything after the movie came out. Yeah. Usually with him, and I'd sit there like an idiot just listening because he was so entertaining.

Oh. I mean, it was just, I've done that a couple of times. The other one who was so entertaining, I would never interrupt him, was Anthony Burgess. Yeah. Who was brilliant and funny, hilarious. But still, at the end of the day, it took you to kind of bring those people together. I guess what I'm after it's a slightly...

Yeah, what are you after, Billy? Because you've gone around the bush here a bit and I want to know what the hell you're talking about. The image of... The poster image of Clockwork Orange, the famous image of you. Yes. Right?

There are few symbols per generation that sort of make the cut. Yes. And that's one of them. Yes. And, you know, and I think what makes it's interesting, and maybe I'm speaking as an alternative artist, because alternative artists have to kind of figure out how to go around the system that exists.

Yeah. You know, and maybe it's particularly American. You know, we don't have a, we have traditions, but they tend to be, they tend to exclude people like me. Let me just tell you, very simply what that was. Okay, please. So there was a scene when I come back and turn lovely, lovely, love, lovely Ludwig van on with a tiny little cassette and it booms. And you know, Alex in his room has got these great speakers and you hear. And I'm taking my boots off and suddenly the camera comes into this and I went in, he went, make some, what are you going to do? And I went, I don't know. Let's play the music and I'll see. And it's a sort of an intentionally like,

a possession. I don't know what it was. And he was laughing so hard. He went, oh, that's it, that's it. That's great. Your eyes went, I went, I went, what? Did he? So when we came to do the very first show of the movie,

which was a track with, what's the name, lens, a zoom lens. So it was tracking and zooming. So it started here. Yeah. and went back and when it was there because I've been drinking milk that was

doped I went into oh I see the trance Alex's little trance I called it and it became the look and then I heard you know Jack did it in The Shining it's absolutely bull

by the way that's not what Jack did Never heard that story, but... No, well, oh, that's the Kubrick-like thing. Oh, I see, I see. But it's not. It's not. It's just maybe there was a shot of him looking crazed, and it was similar, but it's nothing to do with it.

And so the whole of the end, you know, when he's possessed with the music, it's the music, the music. That's what it's all about. Okay. And here's the great dikeptych. is you've got this thug who loves classical music? Well, I always say, my joke I always make is Hitler love dogs. Yeah, well, he wasn't quite as bad as Hitler.

But he did love dogs, you're right. But did dogs love him? I just, the reason I harp on about it is, if you go across the annals of, say, the 20th century, and now we're into the 21st, there are so few people who stand at a unique crossing of history between the cultural moment and the social moment. Yes.

And you became the face in this one particular moment, but it's so rare that it lines up like that. So in my mind, and it's just my own little movie that I play, there's Clockwork Orange playing on a screen somewhere, and I can see the Beatles sitting there, and John Lennon going, I want some of that. John Bonham, the great drummer, Led Zeppelin, decided he was going to dress like a drogue, you know.

I mean... So did Davy Jones? David Bowie was, you know, Ziggy, and all that. Right. So I'm saying it all flows from this singular moment. We have the luxury of looking back and saying, like, I was trying to explain to my son, who's nine years old, about Duchamp in the urinal.

Oh, yeah. Is it Douchamp or I can't... You know, the famous way, it's just the urinal. Yeah, yeah. So, probably crucified me if it's not, if it's not Duchamp. But my son was like, why would a urinal be art? And I go, but that was the point. Yeah, sure.

He broke something, you can never unbreak it. Right, right, right. So you're right. So... Okay, thank you. It is lightning in a bottle. It was the physical look, the... The psychological attitude all came together with these extraordinary roles of absolute defiance.

Mick was a pure revolutionary, a pure revolutionary. Nothing to do with Alex at all. Mick, you know, he was actually Lindsay. He wanted to tear it down, I said. So he finally put, that's what I was trying to put together. Because Lindsay voicing through you, his interest in you, and he saw something in you, voices into this other, you know, zip code with Kubrick and the insanity of Burgess's book. And it's this weird lightning in a bottle.

Yeah. We can hold it up like a chrysalis and go, oh, my God. Like, so much came from this thing. But what fascinates me even more is you're the living represented representation of that moment. Yeah, yeah. And I think the reason it resonates still, especially to artists like myself, is there's something in you

that I understand. I don't know you, but that's kind of what I'm after. Where does the- I'm sure it is. I'm sure you do. Right, where does the acting end and the sort of this pure spirit begin? Well, you embody it. That's my point. That's why I belabor it. It's not acted, although, of course, it is, as Lindsay said, you tell them you're acting, but you'll make them believe you anyway.

Yeah. But when you're doing it, at least when I'm doing it, it's cooking, you know, they'll all tell you, you know, time stands still and you are so in it. Can I share something personal for you know? Yes. I had at least one of those moments in my life when we had our biggest album. Yeah.

And so I was 30 years ago, literally now. Yeah. And I'm not saying you've experienced this, but because so many people continue to be interested in the zeitist of that moment, I find myself sitting around going, what was I thinking? And the answer is, I wasn't thinking anything at all.

No, no. It was no different than any other day. So that's where it's complicated, because people like me want to ask people like you. What were you thinking? You're like, I don't know. I was just... There's no thinking.

I mean, it was, we get to work. First thing is, I gotta have a tea. Is there any tea? Before I do this unmitigated violence, and then we're gonna do, what is the scene? Oh, it's me arriving at the jail. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, well, he goes, well, it's not written. Oh, it's not written. So he was doing on the fly. So, well, there's a guy here who's been to jail. Oh, okay. Hi. Nice to meet you. You're out on parole or what's going on?

Yeah, no, okay. That was a while. So we've got a white line here, and they're really, by the way, and we also have a genius actor, Michael Bates, who was the prison guard. I mean, he was absolutely a Joe Orton actor, if ever there was. I thought he was fantastic. Right. And by the way, Joe Orton, he, his, the flavor of Joe

Orton is over these things, and I didn't even know Joe Orton. I hadn't even read entertaining Mr. Sloan or Lute or what the butler saw. I had no idea. But I feel more in tune with him. I see. about my work to his work than anybody else, including Jimmy Cagney, who I worship, who I adore.

I just bought, I collect some movie, remember it to be it. I just bought a late 30s, early 40s, Cagney, where they would just make a thing of the star for a poster that they could put in a theater. Oh, yeah, oh, one sheet. One sheet, yellow with Cagney. Which, oh. It's just a personality one.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I just bought it. Beautiful, yeah. I always love how Orson Wells would say Cagney's the best film actor of all time. I think Spielberg said that. Well, he probably stole it from Orson. Yeah, probably. We'll get to Orson in a minute, but.

Oh, yeah. I work with him. You work with Orson? Well, tell me, tell me. Well, it was a film by so. Lou Grade. We fondly called him Sir Low Grade. But he did this film with many, many stars called Voyage of the

director, directed by a lovely director, Stuart Rosenberg, who had done Cool Hand Luke. Okay. A terrific movie, and Paul Newman, one of his great performances. And, you know, Faye Dunaway was in this, and, oh, God, everybody, Max von Seedow. And... Great actors. you think? Great actor, absolutely.

And actually, a very funny man. Really? You had no idea. He was so funny. I thought you were one of the... He goes, oh, they're just the films that I do, Malcolm. And, yeah, so we were shooting in Barcelona and Stuart Rosenberg said to me, Malcolm, you don't have any scenes with Orson. He's here.

He's here. You know, also Bellas, oh, my God. So they're doing a scene with him. He goes, would you like to come to his sweet tomorrow morning for breakfast? I went, please. He said, because he's a fan of if. And I went, oh, how wonderful. So I go there, meet the great man.

He is huge. I mean, you'd have to build a ramp for him to get into the car. Anyway, a true gourmand. Yeah, so in come the waiters with silvers, full of melon, prosciuttoes, and cheeses, and eggs, and I'm thinking, God, there must be 50 people coming, all for him. Yes. I've read that he would order five, basically food for five men.

Yeah, yeah. So we had a bit of this and a bit of that. a chat and and I realized, wow, he's, of course, you know, was brought up in the radio age. Yeah. And his acting is radio acting. It was really a bizarre thought that I had when I was talking to him. And I was like, wow, it's really a beautiful voice. I'm sorry to me to.

No, no. Are you a fan of his, like, chimes of midnight? Oh, of course, yeah. It's beautiful. Absolutely. I think to me, Chimes of Midnight is, everyone, of course, talks about... Yeah, the other one.

I think Chimes of Midnight is just a stunning piece of work, considering how he shot it on five countries. Incredible. How? Well, sometimes, you know, when you're under that kind of pressure, great art will come, you know. Let me read you this quote from Mr. Kubrick. This is because when it all started to get kind of controversy

of the movie got banned in Britain, clockworked. Yeah. Well, it didn't get banned. Tell me because I, you know. Kubrick was getting death threats to him and the family about making such a violent movie. He went to Scotland Yard and they said, well, just withdraw the film. I see. That'll stop all that.

And that's what he did. Only in Britain, though. Did the English press go crazy when that movie came out? I mean, in terms of like, this is going to inspire violence and did they go just bonkers? Of course. You know, the English, you know, the English, uh, the movie came out. tabloids. I've been the victim a few times.

Yeah. Stanley's quote, A social satire dealing with the question of whether behavioral psychology and psychological conditioning are dangerous new weapons for a totalitarian government to use to impose vast controls on its citizens and turn them into little more than robots. B.F. Skinner, isn't it? Yes. Yes.

I read B.F. Skinner when I was like 12 years old. Yeah. Did you? Oh, you're an egghead. Namaste. Wow. I'm impressed. Thank you.

But the reason the quote struck out to me, because it's fun to talk about old things. I like to talk about old things, too. But I think it's interesting that there is a modern parallel now because we're having this big conversation about AI, behavioral modification through the use of social media. Well, it's, I mean, look, you know, I'm doing this show up in,

Newfoundland called Son of a Critch with a wonderful producer, actor, writer Mark Critch. And so I sent him, a friend of mine did this rhyme about, and they said to AI, they said, do a limerick about Malcolm McDowell. Okay. This incredible limerick came back mentioning all my movies. or 20 of them in this incredible piece. And in three seconds.

Yes. I mean, I was so, as they say, gobsmacked. I sent it to Mark in Newfoundland, and I said, look at this. Your days are numbered, my friend. Yes, sir, him. Writers are going to be over. He sent back another limerick about me that was even better. And I went, oh, my God, touche.

And he wrote the limerick back. And he did it himself. Yeah. And he said, no, no problem. We'll be all right. Yeah. One other thing, I thought this was interesting. Critic Leslie Hallowell said,

a repulsive film in which intellectuals have found acres of social and political meaning. The average judgment is likely to remain that it is a pretentious and nasty rubbish for sick minds who do not mind jazz. up images and incoherent sound. Poor man. Poor sweet. Darling, kiss my ass. My last thing on Clockwork, I think it's one of the greatest movies of all time.

I mean... Well, people are still talking about it and still seeing it, 50-odd years later. The reason I started this little thing here is I still see where the critical class has a hard time given the movie. It's prop, which is kind of funny. Yes.

I understand that because I think we've touched on it slightly is that there is an immoral man who is made out to be the hero of the film. That is, by the way, never been done before in a studio movie. But aren't we living that now? I would have thought. We're living people being celebrated. Yeah, totally.

And for a way. And we're having... And other things. And we're having rational discussions about people doing awful things. Yeah. I know. Like when the moral needle moves to the point where we have to decide as a culture, a Western culture, whether or not this act of horrific violence is in essence justified. But Halliwell wrote that in 1971. But that's what I'm saying. He probably wouldn't write that now. No, I think, I think as oftentimes happens when a zeitgeist happens, the old guard continues to defend the way it used to

be when young people have already moved on. I mean, you know, that's why personalizing art is the greatest mistake that people make. The famous quote was always Picasso was a toll. Oh. You know, you've ever heard that? I've always heard that it took Picasso 50 years to learn how to draw a straight line. And I always think that is a great quote, actually. But the riff on Picasso as a total is that we have to purport.

the thing that the art engenders, whatever clockwork, for example, using that as the topic conversation, unleashed into the culture, is it responsible for what it pointed was coming, or is it responsible for what it engendered? And I think now, looking back, you know, the criticism of clockwork seemed trite compared to what followed is. I mean, you know, listen, it was supposed to be futuristic.

But of course, it wasn't. Yeah. I mean, because we'd seen this Pavlovian thing going on in American prisons, actually, this aversion therapy. Yeah. So, I mean, it wasn't futuristic at all. It was happening. And gangs were, hello, gangs have been going around. Look at West Side Story, singing about it.

And drugs, hello. I mean, so we've seen all this before. Yeah. It's just that Burgess, you know, nobody really gives Burgess the credit that he honestly deserves. He's up there with Stanley Kubrick, absolutely, in what he delivered. I mean, without his stuff, well, there's nothing. I mean, Stanley wasn't really a writer anyway. Yeah.

Even though he claims that he did the screenplay, but. So coming off of this massive moment, you know, the movie made gobs of money and all that type of stuff. Yeah. This is always my fantasy, but give me your version. You know, you're sitting in the room with the agent, you know, you're coming off a big movie. Like, what do you want to do?

What do they want you to do? I'll tell you that I, was very aware that I would be manipulated to do things that I did not want to do

and I did refuse to do them. I was offered a movie, so much money to do a love story with an older actress. Actually, I was a great fan of hers, but the scripts sucked so pass. What? All this money, how can you pass?

My agents were absolutely, you know, beside themselves. And then, you know, came to Hollywood and met the guys running the studio. And they, you know, were very complimentary, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, then they offered me Lost Horizon. Lost Horizon, I'd just done Clockwork Orange. I mean, I couldn't do that. So I got straight into O'Lucky Man, and I'm very fond of O'Lucky Man.

I love it. Alan Price's score is absolutely completely undersold and quite brilliant. And the lyrics actually are really superb, you know. I'm sad to say I haven't seen it, but doing all this research on you, I want to see it. Have you never seen it? No, I want to see it. Oh, well, my God, if you like if, this is the follow-up. Yeah, no, I know that now.

If you have a friend on whom you think you can rely, you are a lucky man. If you have a reason to live on and not to die, you are a lucky man. Teachers and scholars and something don't know. Anyway, it's... Alan did a brilliant job. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me, but... Now that you're in this deeper water of success and expectation. Darling, I'm 82.

No, not now. I'm not. Oh, and then. No, I find it fascinating what people do under extreme circumstances. Let me tell you, I withdrew. Okay, that's what I was after. Because I knew that it would eat me up personally. Yes.

Were you not strong enough or you just didn't want it? I wanted it on my term. and I thought if I play that game, I'm dead. So go back to the theater. Do a play. Go do a play, which is what I did. Do your own film with the man you really love, Lindsay and admire.

Do that. And, you know, okay, it wasn't the success of If. Still a incredible film. And today, it's fated. you know, if is considered one of the great British films made of that. Yeah. Well, it strikes me as a rank on tour myself, I think, you made the right decision because you're still here.

If a lot of people in your position, yes, they tend to fall off a cliff at some point because they can't sustain that. Well, I kind of fell off the cliff, but I managed. But you fell off the cliff, but you kind of chose to fall off that cliff. Does it make sense? Yes. Is that fair? Yeah, I did.

So, yes, it was interesting. Just to play along with you, I mean, here's a note that I have on my note card. Yeah. Many actors fizzled out, but he persists, why? Ah, well, because I'm English. Is that it? No, I'm English, and I was brought up in the theater. So you have that.

So, listen, you always think that's your last part. Nobody's ever going to ask you again. You know, you're lucky to be working, and I always sit on sets. And even today, to a certain extent, look around and go, oh, my God, this is so much fun. Are they paying me? I am the luckiest person like you, I'm sure. I know you're a musician and you must love it. I do.

You just don't love the travel. That's, but, you know. There's lots of things I don't love. Okay. Yeah. Let's just have a little fun. You take this however you like, and thank you for indulging me. I really do appreciate it.

In 1979, you make two around that area. Oh, I know this story. Well, yes, no, please. Over here we have Caligula. Yes. And over here we have time after time. So, I'm reading the New York Times best and worse lists. I have one film.

on each. Well, I'm happy to say that I saw time after time when it came out into theater with my mother. Ah, yes. We'd go to movies about, you know, once a month. Finally, I saw when it came out. Finally, I made a movie that my mother could go see. Yeah.

So walk me, walk, because this is an odd period of your life. It is. You're making this famous debauched disaster. I did that first. It was. Well, if you want to start, you go, dark to light. Okay, I was called by

Gorvidal, a man who's a certain literary reputation. Sure. And he says, I want to have lunch with you. I've got something I want to urgently talk to you about. I am doing my

Gorvidal's colligula. That was the title. I went, Gorvidal's colligula. Okay. Where do I come in? Are you playing the bar? No, no, but... This is my... Yeah, I said, okay, okay, let me read it. I read it, it was awful, actually, to be honest, it wasn't great,

but he promised he'd do rewrites and we'd get into it. What'd you think of him just personally? Oh, I thought he was entertaining beyond belief. I adored him, actually. I mean, look, you know, I wasn't having an affair with him, and I had... There was a big, long, you know, there was a moat between us. But I enjoyed his company.

He was lacerating who would go after. You know, God Almighty, you should be on the other end of it. But he, you know, he liked, I mean, he was a fun guy. He'd call me up and go, Malcolm, do you have a tie? And go, well, I think I got one somewhere. He goes, wear it. I'll pick you up at 6 o'clock. Well, where are we? I'll pick you up at 6 o'clock. Click. Six o'clock. Got my tie on jacket.

Comes in a cab. I get him. Where are we going? You'll see. Come up to Kensington Palace. We stop by the friendly Bobby pre-9-11. And he goes, yes, come on in. Her Royal Highness is waiting for you. Princess Margaret, the Queen's sister. So there we are hanging out with Princess Margaret. who then, and we go to dinner and she sits next to me, and she looks at me and goes, my husband tells me, you've made a movie about. And I went, really?

Which movie would you? Oh, there is a, yes, Mom, there is, I've been told to call her mom, yes, mom, there is a in it, but it's not about. It really isn't. Sorry to laugh. It's too good. She goes,

smoking all the time. My God. So in the middle of this, I'm going, oh, my God, this is so jury. She's going to start talking about dogs next or horses or something. Anyway, he comes over and he goes, I think Princess M is expecting him, Malcolm, to go back tonight. And I went, Gore, I can't. I can't do it.

I went, it's the queen's sister. You don't get it. You know, I can't. he goes, well, it would be nice. He goes, just close your eyes and think of England. And off he went. So I literally, was marming, marming, marming, got up, walked out, got my jacket, went out into the street,

called a cab, and just split. I got a call the next day, going, well, where did you go? We were looking all over for you. Princess M was very disappointed. did it. Yeah. Did you know that Orson Wells was offered $1 million to play in Caligula? Did you know that?

To play Caligula? No, to be in Caligula. Wow, that would have been fabulous. I love this quote. But Petro, too. They got Peter, and they got dear John. Did you know when you were making this thing that it was a pent-ultimate disaster? No.

And by the way. I know they've recut it. No, no. Let me tell you. Okay, please, yes. It's a new film. It is amazing. Okay, I have to see it now.

You do. Because I saw that you endorse this new... I loathed Caligula, I loathe Guccione, I thought he was an evil man. I really did loathe him. He was just so horrible the way he treated these girls, these pets, was disgusting. And it really pissed me off.

But, you know, look, I was working for him. You know, he just... put a load of the movie, used us, the main actors, to sell it with the, okay, you know, all right, it's not the end of the world, you know, all right. Of course, as far as I was concerned, I almost had a nervous breakdown because it's so upset me and I put so much into that performance.

So now that this re... Well, it's a movie. I thought I made. And you feel good now that you see that? I feel beyond good. I feel completely vindicated. For instance, Helen Mirren, Helen's performance in the Guccioni movie

was 17 minutes. In this one, it's an hour. Okay. She had the great quote, which was, it's an unmistakable mix of art and genitals. Yeah, that's Helen. I mean, what a quote. Yeah, isn't that a great quote?

Yeah. Yeah. So I am duty bound to see this new. Yeah, well, I'm going to, we're going, I'm off to Florence with my Beckett, with my oldest, or the oldest of the three. I've got two more, but different, different mom. We're going to Florence, and Helen's going to join me for the first time seeing this movie. Oh, fantastic.

And so we're going to have a bit. First time they're showing this version in it. Just to give you a little bit of American feedback. So when I was a kid, we kept hearing about this movie. Now, of course, when you're a young man in America in the 1970s, any hint of truth is utterly fascinating. Well, you've got Debbie does Dallas, the green door, behind the green door. In fact, the first time I ever saw it was Debbie Debs Dallas.

Yeah. This kid was a school chum. Yeah. He asked me to stay over. Oh. And he said, they had one of those original beta maxes. you know, when the machine was... Oh, yeah, yeah.

And he says, I got this. And we're in the basement, and he puts the phone on, you know, and it's making noise. There's no way to turn the noise off. And I'm so mortified that we're going to get caught. Yeah, cause. So I said, isn't there a way to turn the...

There was no mute button back in the day. No. Isn't there a way to turn off the sound? He said, well, no. And I said, well, then I can't watch it. Because I can't risk somebody coming down and catching us. So he said, well, there is a way. He said, if we put it on fast forward,

oh, my God. Then there's no sound. So the first time I ever saw it was Debbie Does Dallas at like one and a half time to speak. It's a bit like Charlie Chaplin. That's funny. So you go out of this, you know, this epic, you know, this controversy. And then time after time. Which is such a beautiful movie.

I'm reading time after time as I'm, you know. Somebody's getting your... Whatever. And that was absolutely weird because Gore wanted me to bugger this guy. Of course he did. Go to this wedding and make love to the bride and then make love to the groom. Well, of course. And, you know, and that's collicular because that's just the way it is, or the way it was.

And so I went, Gore, I'm not comfortable, you know, doing buggery, to be honest. He went, oh, how, that's, oh, you're such a prude. I went, I'm a prude. Have you ever seen Clockwork Orange? I am not a prude. I just talked to the Queen's sister for rape. I went, uh-uh, uh, anyway, he kept on at this on. And so eventually was shooting, and it was coming up.

up like in two weeks. The producer was a lovely man, Franco Rossellini, the uncle of Isabella. Yes. He went to New York and he comes back and I said, how was New York, Franco? Well, you know, he talked to someone who'd been out of this set. I mean, there for nine months on the same.

And he goes, oh, I had a wonderful time. I went to this place, you know, in the meat market. It was, I went, oh, yeah. this club. I think it was the anvil or something. Really? Oh, what was that? I've heard of this.

Huh? I've heard of this. Yeah, oh, yeah. Not the story, the anvil. Wow. Oh, you've really? You've been there? So anyway, he goes to the anvil, and he goes,

Ma, you wouldn't believe it. All these guys on a stage and everybody's fistf-in in the club. I went, what? Are you serious? He goes, how do they? He goes, oh, they had things. of grease and they had just, I went, oh my God, and I went, that's what I could do. Let's move it to a kitchen and I'll fist the guy.

It's way better and quite amusing. And they all looked at me a bit like you did, open mouth. And I went, yeah, that's it. So we get to the thing, we're there and I say, where's the actor? Where's the actor? And they went, they're preparing. I went, and I look over and there he comes. This guy is coming.

I said, all these people are around him, like he's, you know, heavyweight boxing champion or something. He's getting to the ring. And I'm going to, who are all these people? What's going on? And they went, well, you know, there is family. I went, his family. Listen, I'm not, I don't really want to be a fisting the guy with his family watching.

I mean, that's, I mean, kind of. Can't we do something about that? And I went, wait a minute. Does the guy know what's going on? They went, not yet. Oh. I went, oh, my God. Well, I'm going to my room.

When you've sorted that out, let me know. He was a very good sport. But the one thing that really upset him was, after I've done, I, Caligula Caesar in the name of the Senate and the people of Rome. And I had this sort of little posy of little... Yes, I remember.

It's like kind of a garland. Yeah, a little garland of little roses. I plucked a rose, and I popped it like a cherry on the cake. And I walked off. And after much discussion, Tinto, the director, said, Malcolm, Fantastic. This is very, very good. We have a problem that whatever his name.

I forgot his name. Guido, whatever. Guido, he's upset. I went, I know, it's upsetting. I mean, it is, and he goes, no, the, okay. It's the rose on his, and I went, oh, my God, let's cut that. Cut it. I won't do that.

I'm sorry. I apologize. What was it about the rose that set them off? It was just humiliating. I mean, it's bad enough, you know. But then to crown it all, probably a wrong choice of words. But anyway. Two things.

I saw something where you were talking about when you were making time after time, you ended up at some point after doing location shots in San Francisco, shooting on the Warner Brothers backlaws. Yes. And having that sense of that history. Yes. Can you talk up a little bit about because I love that stuff? And so... Well, you know, when they first said, you've been invited to Hollywood. I mean, do you want to go? And I went, do I want to go? I mean, my God, yeah, please. And now, getting in the limo from the airport and I'm going to the driver, well, where is Hollywood? I mean, where is it? And he goes, well, this is Beverly Hills and went, well, it's not the kind of Hollywood I'm thinking of. He goes, well,

we'll drive down Hollywood Boulevard. And I'm going, this is it. Yeah. I was just absolutely amazed how scruffy and ordinary it was. And then my minder at Warner's said, hey, Malcolm, there's a party tonight. You want to go. There'll be a lot of old movie stars. And I went, That's why I'm here. I'd love to pay my respects. I mean, you know, it's my childhood. I mean, I'm a great fan. I don't care.

Yeah. So we go along and sure not. It's corrupt. Your mic just popped out. The pack might have... Oh, no. Might have sat on a button. Did I...

What? The button might have been put up. Stacked up the pack. Oh. Well, that won't do. Hey. Oh, this is a good moment. Keep it in.

Yeah. We'll pick, I know exactly where to pick up. I love the whole thing of the coming in with the mic. That's very Lindsay Anderson. Oh, is it? Yeah. We'll keep that. Corrects you in?

One second. Well, sure, does it need a new battery? Okay. The area's loose. Yeah, speaking of Brecht, it is. Yes. Exactly. Yeah.

It's some coming on with the posters. We're actually not even in the set. We're just. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Okay. I'm just going to put it down there.

So what we were saying? You were going to a party to meet old Hollywood stars. So I go and there is Paulette Goddard. Wow. There she is in person. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Wasn't she married to Chaplin at some point?

Yes. Exactly. Very good. And then the minder goes, Malcolm, jeans here. Do you want to meet him? Gene Kelly. Okay. Oh.

And I went. I'd love to meet him. Did he think you ruined his song? Well, he cut me dead. He came over. They tapped him on the back, and he turned around, looked at me. Did he have his toupee on? Oh, yeah.

He looked. He looked like Gene Kelly. He looked like Gene Kelly. He was very handsome man. I mean, I guess he was in a dancer's body. Yeah. He must have been in his six of you, I guess. I don't know.

Yeah. Anyway, he just cut me dead and walked off. Really? Yeah. Didn't even say hi? No. Oh. And the mind, though, started to apologize, and I went,

please don't apologize. I get it. He's pissed. I don't blame him. Listen. But I hope one day he'll realize it was in homage of his greatness and the greatness of that film. And the imagery.

to the world was one of euphoria. When I'm doing those dastly things, I'm euphoric. That's why it popped into my head when I did an improv. That's why. Yeah. Last thing. It's much easier for me to interview musicians because I know how musicians think. But I don't really know how actors think.

I think it's rather similar. Okay, please, tell me. I've always felt a great comradeship with musicians. In fact, I'm jealous of musicians to a certain extent. My son, Beckett, is a musician. I heard this, yes. And it really, I say this is sort of tongue-in-cheek, but actually it's sort of true,

is that it takes you three minutes to make people laugh, to move them. and then make them cry. It takes me two hours to do the same. And there is something so beautiful in encapsulating in that three or four minutes, you know, a world, a story, an emotion. It's just amazing.

And it's... No, please. So, because I think to flip the script, the musician looks at those images on the screen, and the grandeur of that. Obviously, we've tried to emulate it in music videos, but you could never get the emotional scope of a great film.

No. And that's the one thing. I have over you guys, but I still, I still am in awe of great performances, of great musicians. It's, it's, it's, I mean, you know, I can listen to a song and instantly cry, instantly. if I hear John Lennon, you know,

Placagono band, that whole album to me is like, oh yeah, yeah, they mean where he kind of came out of the scream therapy, that sort of starkness. My God. Right? Oh. Mother, I never had you, but you had, you had me, but I never had you. Yeah.

Mother. Yeah. I think it's, and then don't believe. Oh my God, he goes through the litany of don't believe. Oh, yeah, don't believe in the. It's so beautiful. But I think to me, he had one of the great rock and roll voices. Did you ever read Jeff Emrick's book about recording the Beatles?

No. Jeff was the engineer behind George Martin. It's like in the last 10 years. Oh, I will. I will. I'll find it. It's really beautifully written. Yeah.

He's much more favorable. Jeff Emrick is much more favorable to McCartney as a personality. McCartney was the guy who would stay late. I know. It was a chom and would work on his bass lines. all that, and I love him for that. We all love Paul, you know. But he said what was so, and I'm using the term loosely, infuriating about Lenin, was he would

write a song like a day in the life. Yeah. He'd come in with a cold, bad attitude. Yeah. He'd sit down and sing the song four times and leave. And you would sit there and say, how did he just do what he did? A fucking genius. And he said, and we're still listening to that one of those four takes.

And he, in 45 minutes, there. it is and we're still listening. We're still decoding and dissecting this level of genius. There's something about that rawness that speaks. Yes. See, this is what I was going to end with, if you don't mind, is what we're lucky mutually is that front row to that magic. And when it works, it's sort of like, wow. Yeah. And we've both been lucky that we've stood in that magical moment. And so, and again, And people will sit and ask us into infinity what happened and we don't really know. Yeah.

Because like I tell fans sometimes, if I knew how to do it again, I would give it to you again and again and again. Like a Willy Wonka machine, I would give it to you if I could. But what makes it so incredible and indelible is the fact that you can't, you can't repeat it again and again and again. And that is the greatness of it. Thank you, sir. My pleasure.