The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Matt Pinfield & Allison Hagendorf | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary MTV host Matt Pinfield and music journalist /MTV alum Allison Hagendorf to revisit the MTV era — when music videos launched careers, broke new artists, and changed rock culture forever.Matt shares behind-the-scenes stories from the network's most influential years, Allison reflects on her journey from devoted fan to one of rock's most trusted voices, and Billy reveals how MTV helped launch the Smashing Pumpkins, the incredible story behind the lost 1979 video footage, and the on-air comment about Chicago bands that earned him years of hate mail.Along the way, they debate hair metal versus grunge, the cultural power of music videos, how artists broke through before algorithms, and why Billy believes rock—and Gen X—are finally ready for their next chapter.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

That's the thing about the three of us, we're always still fans. I would literally, you know, you're like, we would watch 40 videos a week. I was psycho. I was listening. I'm not exaggerating to thousands of songs a week. Walk me inside MTV in those years. It felt like it was a world made for me. That was a massive period of change.

And it affected our lives in just an unbelievable way. It was influencing culture. It was influencing politics. I mean, it had, it was so important back then. It just felt like you were in the inside of something very special. Matt Pinfield. Yeah. Alison Hagendorf.

Thank you very much for being on my podcast. I feel like I should be in your world. I was going to say this feels so good actually having us sitting here. Well, you're going to get grilled, okay. Oh, great. We're really going to put you to the marks. So let's, by way of introduction, because I think it helps with the conversation we're going to have. So we'll start with you.

Yeah. You've been an on-air. DJ. Yes. Club DJ. Yeah. Program director for radio stations. Yeah.

VJ. Yeah. Oh. Of course, 120 minutes. You're very important to our world in that way. Best. I think I read you done over 100 MTV specials, which... Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I was also, when I got hired there, I filled in first,

but then I was one of the people who programmed the music. So I was manager music programming who I worked with your friend Amy Finnerty very closely. I just saw Amy Finner the other night. I love it. Liss Off tomorrow's book event here in Los Angeles. Oh, that's awesome. I mean, it's great to see Melissa. A&R for Columbia Records.

Yes. Also worked for VH1, HDNet, MySpace. Yeah. Sirius, Lithium, of course. KOS, KCSN. And what's your show now again? Yeah, KCSN. That's on KCSN, which is, you know, the public station at Ringo and people like that, you know,

and Tom Hanks and Joe Walson. they all kind of are big supporters of. So it's here in Los Angeles. It's called the SoCal Sound. So I have a lot of freedom there to play a lot of things. I play a lot of new stuff too, but a lot of freedom. So I get to load in your old B sides,

which is so much funny. And play like ugly. So you're doing old school free form DJ. I'm going to sort of take it. Yeah, I have so much freedom. So I love that. And I also have a syndicated show called Flashback, which is through Westwood One,

which is a classic rock history show. I've been done for 15 years. And so that's a weekend thing that's on terrestrial and different markets all over the country. And then, you know, now I do KLOS one day a week. So it's like, I just keep busy. I'm very grateful to be doing that stuff, you know. And I'll just say it was like, you know,

what I love about that, you know, the public station is, you know, like, you know, obviously everybody knows about some of the defunding of, you know, public media. And so, you know, it's great that we have major supporters with people like Tom Hanks and his wife. And of course, Ringo and Joe Walsh, who are brother-in-laws, right? But Ringo did a thing on our last pledge drive where he matched every dollar that people donated on, or like that people pledged on my show on the last day of the pledge, which was a very kind thing because it's now I've had a relationship with Ringo for quite a few years. So it's like just, it's a beautiful thing.

So anyway, so yeah, keep on going. You know, that's it. And then, Alison, the A&R for Sony. BMG, Columbia Epic, stop me if I'm wrong, fuse, of course the fuse, which at one point was called the, you know, the competitor of, it was hoped it was going to be the competitor of MTV.

Yeah. You host a Times Square, New Year's Eve, New York, New York, New York, New York, New Year's Eve. Live announcer for MTV Video and Movie Awards, X games for ABC and ESPN, global head of Rock, Spotify, and also on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, nominating committee and, of course, the Alison Hagerdorf show, which I've been a guest on.

But I miss anything. I mean, that's pretty great. I love that the beginning of my career revolves around this man. Well, that's also why I wanted to put you two together. Yes. Do you know the story of how we connected? Please do. I think I assume it, but please tell me.

I grew up watching MTV, seeing Matt Pinfield, hosting 120 minutes, which was like my everything. and I literally wanted to be Matt. I thought Matt was the absolute coolest, smartest, the trust that he had with artists, the rapport that he... By the way, still has with artists. 100%. Because you learn real quick in the biz

who you can tell secrets to and they're going to keep them and who you can be friends with and everybody can kind of... They can still do their day jobs, but like the mix of church and state is held very sacredly. And Matt's one of those people. You too. Thank you. But speaking of the time you were in, that, you know, who we could trust over there in the Borg at MTV, you know, was important to us. Yeah. And I just, I revered Matt as a fan. And I actually went to school to be a doctor. I graduated pre-med. But while I was at school, I became the Sony college rep because I just loved music. And I won rep of the year. So my reward for winning.

this was a job offer at both Columbia and Epic Records. And I knew that Matt Pinfield worked at Columbia Records. Now, the job offer was to do nothing with Matt. It was an assistant in the jazz department. Yes. And I was like, I'll take it. I will take it. I will find Matt. And literally, for about three to four months, I pitched myself to HR and Matt. And I said, I'll still do this. But let me also assist Matt. And then finally, I became Matt Pinfield's assistant. And then I was Matt Pinkfield's right hand. And the rest is history. Yeah, it's incredible. And he, and Matt is not only my mentor, but he is my best friend. And it's just this beautiful, I just feel honored to be with Matt all the time. You know, as you know, I've been pitching that you two should have some kind of show. Oh. Yeah. No,

because I think both you carry the mark of credibility that we need in the rock and alternative sphere. Yeah. and people trust you. And just like the classic DJ, you got to trust that when the DJ says, hey, listen to this record, check out this band. It does carry weight. The record business seems to kind of move past that, but I think they've left a lot of money on the table

by looking past what people like you bring to the table. Certainly the artists understand. And I think that's why we have these types of relationships, you know. Because it really is, can you help us translate what we're trying to get to the world? It's not just sheer capitalism. It's like, can you? Does somebody out there understand that it is sometimes it isn't always about whether you've got a high charting record?

It's about credibility. It's about what your band represents into culture. Yeah. And sometimes it takes a street feel to understand the difference between, you know, take the 90s. The 90s highway is littered with bands that in many ways were bigger than the smashing pumpkins at any given point that are completely forgotten. Yeah. So it takes people like yourselves to go, okay, yes, this band's having a moment and yes, we're going to cover that. but we know who the real bands in the game are.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a self-serving comment, please. No, but it's true, but it is a beautiful thing, though, and that's one of the things that was, I was very grateful for those moments, even, you know, like, where, you know, at the radio stationer program in New Jersey, HWHCG, where I'd worked part-time and then became director and then program director,

and that's kind of how the industry became familiar with me. And I think it was one of those things where they were like, Oh my God, this guy's looking for reasons to play bands, not not to play them. Right. Like, the difference was that I was always trying to champion. And I'm sure Alice was the same way. She did it at Spotify. And, you know, but it's like where you just want to see people succeed and you want to help them,

especially if their music touches you or, but you also understand there's an audience out there that cares. And people love music. It's just such a part of their lives. Well, it's a shocking fact that. of course, less so now because the music business has changed. But back in the day, you would meet people at music, you would meet people at the labels that didn't care about music. Yeah.

And you think, how do you work in the music business and not care about music? It was the strangest thing. They were talking about it as if they were selling, I don't know, air conditioning units or cookies or something. There was no passion. Yeah. And, you know, the famous word, product. Right.

Yeah. It was always like, ugh, product. Right. I was hated that word. Yeah. When it was associated with music. Yeah, you always felt so weird. Like you put your whole heart into something and it's a product.

And we feel that heart too because we love the culture. Yeah. We love the artists and we love the audience because we are the audience. Yes, we are. And I think that's so important because I think that's the thing about the three of us, we're always still fans. Like I am a fan through and through. And music has gotten me through.

everything. Like, you know, I mean, I think of everything. You know, we just think about, you know, the craziness in life besides, you know, you know, like, you know, all my recovery stuff and, you know, and subriative. And, but also an aneurism when I'm 15 years old, you know, like I felt. And that's when, you know, you talk about alienation as a teenager. And when I had to have like, what looked like train tracks across my head and there's still a scar. You can see what I had to cut into my head at 15 years old. Can imagine that there's a little. Can imagine that feeling of alienation that I felt was, uh, I'll turn to music as there waiting for you. Yeah.

And you're alienation. Yeah. Right. You got just what you need. Yeah. So it was so it was beautiful that, you know, getting through that, getting through, you know, getting hit by a car to stroke all the other stuff. It's just music has been there through everything. Heartbreak, you know, but it's just every, everything.

So it's a beautiful thing. I feel very, very great. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's maybe worth saying to the people listening that. it is an industry, as Ken Berry, the former head of Virgin Reckers told me, it's called the music business for a reason. Yeah.

But there is a grace there that you can find the balance, where the right artists can find the right opportunities. And hopefully, in the best situation, the pressure and the excitement of what's happening, in many cases, creates the atmosphere for artists to make great music. In essence, the opportunity exists, and then the artist steps up into the space and creates great music. Yeah. At least that's the way I view it.

And I think that has a lot to do with why rock has struggled, I think, over the last 20 years is because the lack of pressure, well, then you end up making music for indie critics in their basement. You know how long you're trying to reach the mainframe. The fact that rock is not represented commonly in the common culture is part of the reason I think that there haven't been those Sergeant Pepper moments along the ways over the last 20 years. I'm sure somebody would beg to differ. but if you talk to most people on the street, they could name check one rock album in the last 20 years that they would cite

as a cultural milestone moment. And yet you go through every other decade before that and you could rattle off off the top of your head without even trying. Well, I think that's why it's even more exciting right in this moment how much rock and alternative is thriving. We're going to get it.

No, no, you don't hijack my show. We're going to get to that. No, really, that's the whole point of it. So let's start here somewhat dramatically. Okay. I'm, you know, I'm going to frame it up this way, and I'm going to give you two bookend ideas, and then we can play in the space. And this is really why I wanted to talk to you. Okay, over here you have the death of MTV, right? Yeah. MTV being the single greatest driver for rock music over the last, well, not in the last 30 years, but like, let's say it hasn't had much of an influence for 15 to 20, but in the period that we sort of came of age, it was the single greatest driver engine for, for, like, there wouldn't have been Nirvana, never mind the way we now understand. it to be if it wasn't for MTV. There wouldn't have been Siamese Dream. There's just no way. It took it to levels that was in many ways unprecedented. And it was alternative, which makes it even crazier. In fact, I had an interview recently with Pat Boone, who's 91. And he had taken

his time to research some of my music in anticipation for the interview. And he couldn't understand kind of the disassociative alienation aspects in the music. And he was like, why would you make music like that. He wasn't being accusatory. He was curious. Yeah. And I said, we made music that was pretty much for our tribe. And then we found ourselves in the situation where that music became popular. Yeah. Which was, you know, it wasn't voiced for, you know, you're not trying to get on TV because there was no TV to get on. If you were lucky, you're on 120 minutes. Yeah. So, okay, so over here we have the death of MTV. Let's just, it's treated as a symbolic idea. Yeah. Obviously, there's still an MTV. And then on the other side, um, and, and, you're just, and,

And I find this shocking is the decline of the video as a medium of marketing because now with YouTube and other portals, you would think that the video as a artistic expression would be thriving. And yet its value in the culture is compared to, say, 30 years ago is minimal. So can you play between those two ideas if you want to jump in on that? Well, I was going to say, well, I think, you know, it used to be that, you know, the net, work would tell you what matters. And now the audience decides who they trust and that's what matters. Okay. So that shift has just happened. But as far as the music video itself, it was the only way to really get to see an artist's expression. Yeah. Now it's just one of a million ways. Okay. That's a valid point. I'd also argue, though, the music videos still are important,

especially in Rock and Alternative. I think they really are. But, but not. to argue, but it seems like there were times where it was, it had a cultural leading edge to it. And now it feels like it's just in a sea of information. I mean, I think that you could really, you could put mile markers throughout those MTV years on, as you saw certain things shifting, obviously the second British invasion that happened earlier on because of the lack of American videos. And then, you know, other than Zizi Tappanthetti and people like that, there were like really embraced it from minute one. It was. You know, one of those situations.

I think, you know, people, they make videos still. But I, it's, I, that's the difference. It's been without that cultural platform where it was something where people went. And as you said, because, you know, I'll get people, all meet people over the country who talk about, like literally. And it's every day who, you know, talk about their experience and how much MTV or 120 minutes in the shows had to do with their, you know, what really shaped their musical take.

And it's amazing the range of people. And then I'd be in Brazil or somewhere where, you know, they would say to me, I watched you on TV, you know, when I was, you know, and it's pretty incredible. Because I didn't even realize it's time to reach. I mean, we'd no idea that MTV, we knew it was international, but not just how international it was. You know, because you're living here and working out of things. But when it comes to the video side of things, I think it's because the budgets aren't even close to what they were back in those.

But you're right about it. But your earliest videos, but I'm sure the budgets weren't that high. No, they were, they were paltry. Right? But, you know, sometimes people will say to me, I wish you still made videos the way you used to make them. And I go, yeah, if you want to give me half a million dollars.

Yes, I'm happy to make a video that you'll enjoy, you know. It was a craft services table would be like, you know, that'd be the budget for like five videos, right? You know, I mean, like, at some of these things, you remember how. Yeah. But there are things that people, obviously, the videos that were made, You know, like whether it's 1975, I'm just using these examples, or even, you know, today, there are certain things that are so iconic that people.

The video we did together with you and Youngblood, that's like the zombie video. Yeah. I mean, that is iconic. No, I appreciate it. But I'm saying is I'm talking about, let's call it, if there was a peak point, and I don't know what year it was of MTV, you know, where the music business and MTV were in lockstep together. Yeah.

as this kind of crazy marketing machine. It was influencing culture. It was influencing politics. I mean, it had... It was so important back then. Oh, is everything. So for you, what would be peak MTV year? Well, I think the peak MTV years are probably from, like, I mean, the...

My guess would be, like, I mean, there's a period from, like, late 80s, like, all the way through, like... But pick, let's just pick one year just for fun. Well, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I kind of have to pick. It's, you know, 91 and like 90, I think there was a really interesting. Obviously, there was a, there's a major shift there. Yeah. But it had been influential for a while. And it's, it used to actually drive some of the cultural changes. As you know, we talked about the politics to rock the vote. You know, we think of things like that. We think of the fact that, you know, when, when the whole, everything happened with Nirvana, it just like all of a sudden it was next generation. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is. It's that. Maybe it was Nirvana's moment that told the world, this thing's become so powerful. You can take something that's absolutely counterculture. Yes.

And center it. And the whole world goes, oh, okay. Yeah. I was going to say like 94 and 95. Yeah. Because, you know, I will say that, we all know this, that smells like teen spirit changed everything. Yeah. And also shifted what kind of videos we saw on MTV from the hair metal to grunge.

By the second albums, by in uter. and Melancholy was not your second album, but Grunt was already established. It was already mainstream. Yeah, and now it was business. Right. Now it was mainstream pop culture. Yeah.

And that's when MTV really became it. Because it started with just being videos. Like in the late 80s and you have, you know, Duran Duran and all of that, you know, amazing, amazing videos. But then it became culture, not just music videos. And then it expanded to like House of Style. And then there was like MTV Sports. And then it really.

became a lifestyle destination in addition to just showing music videos. I'd say like early mid-90s. Just to give some context of how important MTV was in those years, you're talking about like 94-95. The first video we made for MTV, the focus was always MTV. Yes. And everything came second, including international markets. It's like, you've got to get it on MTV and everything came second.

And in fact, they would even say, if you get on MTV, the radio stations will pick up on it. Yeah. So the priority was MTV down. It would, it was like that because that was definitely, it would actually force, you know, radio programmers to look at an artist he might otherwise ignore. Sure. So, okay, so Bullet with Butterfly Wings, we probably spent like 300. 1979 would have been about 250, maybe more, because of the famous lost tapes incident. Oh, my God.

That is the most. I remember it well, too. Insane. I'm talking to you shortly after that. That was just a. Well, the. Was it really in the. roof of the car.

Yeah. So what happened was they gave. We shot this. We were up somewhere where there, you know, there was still earthquake damage stuff from the, from the big earthquake was a 91, whatever. Yeah. And so we went into a neighborhood where the house was cracked in the middle. So it was a perfectly nice house, but it was cracked, but we could shoot a video in there for one day. So we went in there and shot the party scenes where the kids are, and we're playing in the party.

And then we got on a plane of flute in New York for like a gig. like the academy or something. Yeah. Four sold out shows type of thing. And we came off stage after one of the shows. And Jonathan and Valerie, the video directors, were in our dressing room. Yeah. And it was one of those moments where we thought, if it was a relative, you'd think somebody died.

Yeah. Yeah. And the look on their face was like, and you were like, uh-oh, what happened? And they said literally they gave the tapes of the whole party seen to a staffer. They put them on the car. Yeah. And they drove down the road. and they had done searches and they couldn't find them anywhere.

They had, they, they were doing things like they were doing Spanish speaking ads, hoping anybody in the community, because it was sort of a bit rural, would find the tapes offering a reward. And the tapes have never surfaced. That's amazing. That is amazing. It'd be funny if somebody found them or had, so looked in, a closet went in. They had the secret lost 1970s. It's a forensic. Yeah.

And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then we had to fly back and shoot the exact same scene again with the exact same people. Can we talk about that. I just, oh my God, it sounds like I'm interviewing. You talk about whatever you want. But the Valerie, I mean, I love what they did, obviously, the work they did with the pumpkins. And then I so love Little Miss Sunshine. I just thought they were like, you know. Yeah, one of the nicest compliments I ever got is they called me when they got the movie and they said we got this movie because of you.

How great is that? I mean, talk about touched. That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, right? They said literally our work with you is the reason we got this movie. Oh. That's it. Now they might have been just being nice and maybe there's some.

I don't know about. I'm sure that they said that because it's true. Beautiful people, really beautiful people. And just to finish the trope here, I think we spent 475 on Tonight Tonight. Yeah. So imagine, just in those three videos, probably about a million dollars a video spent. That's how much important it was. There was no other, everything came second.

And I will tell you that it's withstood the test of time because in all of the content I do, I do my Allison Unchained series just unveiling the stories behind the songs that shaped us. And I really spent a lot of time in the music videos. And I will tell you that this gorgeous community that we were building simply about me talking about in like an infotainment sort of way, how it connects and how these music videos have become part of us. Right. They are part of our imprinting years, our DNA. And they mean just as much as the song. So that's kind of my point is, is not to sort of bang on MTV.

I mean, they're their own business and they have their own reasons for what they did or didn't do. But I think we all understand that the power of that network at that time and because we still have fans 30 years later because of their emotional connection. And a lot of those emotional connections came through the videos. Yeah. Even the way people perceive my band in reality or non-reality have to do with the way we represented ourselves in video. Yeah. That was more in many ways more imprinting on people's minds than the band on stage. Yeah.

Which is amazing when you think. What I really realized, because I struggled at different times when I reformed the band in 2007, and it would be just me and Jimmy, and that it would just be me, and people would be mad at me. You know what I mean? And I would say, but I made the records, and I would sort of give my defense on why I should legitimately be able to carry on the band without them. And what I really ultimately realized is Seinfeld. They want the original cast on stage. They need to see the original cast.

And even when people still, to this day, ask for Darcy to come. back. They want to see the band back together, but it's less about the band musically and it's more about the band visually. Yeah. Which is a weird. The emotional connection they have to the image of the band. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yes. And I realize that when I like would say go see the monkeys or something. Yeah. It's something about seeing them together and their interaction. Yeah. Right. Because it's an experience. In many ways more powerful to me than them on record, which as you know, with the monkeys, it was studio bands. Yeah. You know, whatever called this, the sunset.

preachers. You'll know that, you'll know the original band. Yeah, all those guys. And, you know, it's amazing, too. It's those, Monkey's Records are really great, though. There's so many great songs on those albums, actually. Yeah. You see, there's your trivia question. What was the name of the? Yeah. Well, they were a record. Candy store profits. And then it was like, and then, you know, wrecking crew guys were involved, like everybody

was kind of like this. Well, that's the famous thing where they got into a fight about, you know, who. The Magnest Smith punching the hole through the wall. At the Beverly Hills Hotel. Yeah. So because we're talking about it, and I think it's, you know, I feel like Gen X is finally ready to have its moment. It's 10, 12, 2 years too late, but it'll be fine. Yeah.

So let's have the moment. So walk me inside. I mean, it was more your gig than yours. I know you worked there, but walk me inside MTV in those years, like, you know, the political process, the sort of the pressure, the outside pressure. Just give me a snapshot. It's really interesting how, you know, I'll give you some examples, but, you know, on Mondays, we would do the acquisitions meeting, which meant it was all the videos that would come out in,

and it would be the 10 of us. There were 10 of us on the committee, right? And of course, you know, it's cool because Allison and I are both on it, now on the Rock and Rolls Fame Committee with Allison as well. We're all on that. Oh, I didn't know you're on it. Yeah. So it's, and it's great, you know, because we get the going.

their fight for rock bands that we love. Good luck. But I know that. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. But I will say this. I just, every Monday, we would, everybody would kind of, would meet in this, about one in the afternoon.

I'll take you through what that was all about. Yeah. That music department, it was 10 people. And so because I, I was very grateful, I'd won music director of the year, I'll turn a music director for the country. And they were like, who's this guy from Asbury Park? You know what I mean? It was like Jersey Shore.

You know, most, it was always reserved for the major city dudes and women. And so I think that grabbed some attention besides people were listening to the station that worked at MTV that were, could get it over the water from the Jersey side in lower Manhattan or in the south end of Long Island. I get it. So anyway, so we go in every Monday, there'd be a list and it probably, it could be anywhere from 30 to 40 videos and we would watch them all. So we would sit there the 10 of us and literally sit there, you know, with pads, you know what I mean? Yeah. And kind of watch everything. And then it would be kind of a situation where, and the thing that was interesting was, even though certain people would be more involved with other shows from a programming standpoint, we would all vote on everything.

So if it was, you know, when Tupac's dear mama came in or Dr. Dre's with a, it would, with two people. You know, California love, so everybody literally, like, voted and had a voice about every genre. So it was very interesting thing. That's why I think they were very careful to make sure it was people that understood and were open-minded to listening to everything, which is how I think I ended up being hired to be one of the 10 people in that committee. But it was like, so we go through 40 videos. So this one's, you know what, this is great. We should do this one for 120. You know, Kurt Steffick would be there, Amy, you know.

We'd all, you know, like Lewis Largent and Eichon. And it was also a great group. And everybody was passionate about music and passionate about things they love too. And we're really afraid to say that. So I love that there were those battles. But that was not the day for the battles. So the first day would be we'd watch everything new in a week. And then two days later, we would go in and then it would be about the rotations,

like how often a record is going to play. And then it would start to be, well, should this be a buzz club? So then we decide which things were bus clips. So it would be, you know, and like, oh, we're going to, this one's perfect for you. Meanwhile, we're at home like sweating. Yeah. But you had fans in there from like the day wide, you know, obviously. Yeah, no.

We were blessed in that regard. Yeah. Well, that today video just blew my mind. It was so great. And see, that's of this, but see what's interesting about that. And this is where having people inside the Borg were important who understood what the band was trying to say. Our first video came out, which was Cherabrock,

and it didn't perform very well. Yeah. And it didn't really catch on alternative radio. Yeah. So the label completely panicked. Yeah. And I got a call from our A&R guy, Mark Williams, who said, we need to make another video right away.

And he said, you have any ideas? And I said, yeah, I have this idea. I want to be an ice cream truck driver. That's the best. And he said, and he goes, no. Yeah. I go, what do you mean? No, he goes, we can't play a game.

It's MTV. You guys have to make a very conservative no-brainer video. What I call the band stands against a brick wall video. Yeah, right, right, right. You know, hot chick walking in slow motion, band against a brick wall. And I said, there's no way we're doing that. We're going to do the ice cream truck video, which is why if you watch the Today video, there's this weird artistic overlay with Zabriski Point because the director didn't like my concept. So he basically put his concept, which he wanted to do some kind of.

a weird Zabrisky point, which is why there's people making out in the hills. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. He was a fan of that movie. So he basically forced Zabrisky point over my ice cream truck. Right. I did. Did you know the movie? I remember both clearly.

Of course I did. But I was like, why do we need the arty people making out in the hills as I drive by in the ice cream truck? Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing contact. I will say, though, it worked. It ended up working.

But it was one of those things where you cross your. fingers because you bet the whole farm at that point if that video hadn't clicked or you guys had rejected it. Yeah. We were sunk. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because we're supposed to be the next, you know, big alternative band. I think like as a kid just watching this from home, it felt like for the first time, because I was raised on great music from my parents. It was like Motown and 50s rock and roll. But seeing this, it felt so weird. Like everything that was coming out in the early 90s, obviously, from Smolsey Teen Spirit, the gym with like the, you know, like everything was weird and then seeing you in like the ice cream truck,

we're kind of like, what's happening and I love it. The level of subversion in the messaging, if you really look at it. Yeah. It felt like ours. Let's talk about Teen Spirit. What's there they are in the high school gym with the alternative cheerleaders. Yeah. I mean, the symbolism is, yes.

It's our time now. Yes, and that's how it felt. It was so cool. And it was just, it was so impactful. It was so. Well, that's what's so beautiful in hindsight. but the reality was we were up against other forces. Thankfully, people like you inside who go,

okay, there's something happening here. This is important. And you being, and you playing those songs on the radio, you had the street feel for the music. And it was a beautiful thing because that's it. It's always so important to literally, I've always, and I know you feel the same way I was, you know, thought that it was people really need,

not only just have a real true passion for it, but they have to really be able to observe and understand what's going on. Yeah. There's a sorry. Oh, Garber said, so not only out like a fan level, but a real true understanding of what's happening around you. And that was really important always, not only for everybody.

And that's why the difference, like what you're talking about is that MTV drove Coke or that drove up. Absolutely. Everything that was happening there. I mean, not only did they reflect it, but like, like, it's kind of like when the years were doing like VMAs long after you're actually playing videos and kind of chasing the culture that you used to literally. That's what I, that's kind of why I call the Death of MTV. Yeah. Not sure how they gave that all up.

Let's stay in the good years for a few more minutes. Let's talk a little bit because you said you were watching. So let's start with you. The impact of 120 minutes on alternative culture. I mean, as you know, at the start of 120 minutes, there was no word called alternative music. Right, right. Remember that at one point they tried to call it postmodern.

Postmodern. I remember that. I was thinking like, real clunky words. It kept the new wave thing for a long time. Well, new wave didn't really fit, but that's, there was no term for it. Now it's all glumpt in alternative music. Yeah. But 120 Mitz really created that model.

Like, this can be its own genre of music. Yeah, absolutely. Up to that point, it was just weird music on the sides. Yeah. If Seymour Stein put it out, maybe, you know, but for the most part, there was no real umbrella term. Yeah. And certainly we didn't see ourselves as punk. Yeah.

And punk by and large was considered anti-commercial. Yes. Right. Yeah. So talk a little bit of, let's start there. So that's 120 minutes. I think looking back as a journalist now, the impact of 120 minutes. It felt like it was a world made for me.

I felt like I, everything that Matt would tell me to like, I genuinely loved it. Not just because he told me to like it, I agreed with him. I felt like we were friends. and he was giving me the inside scoop. And it was also the place where I saw a lot of amazing strong women. Now, as a young girl, it was the first time I saw, no doubt, just a girl. I remember it was like, the first time I said, Just a Girl video, it was so crazy and wild and her look. And it was, I knew what she was singing about.

And I was like, this is incredible. She's a badass. Like, it was like girl power, but it was not about girl power. about just being equal and being fierce and then seeing Alanis Morrison, you ought to know. And these women were not perfect and pretty. They were gorgeous, but that's not what it was. Yeah, they weren't model types. Right.

But to me, they were the most gorgeous women I had ever seen because they were just so unapologetically fierce. Yeah. And I was like, this is where I belong. Yeah. This is the world I want to be part of. Yeah. And that's a great way to describe it. And I needed, I was just glued to it.

Yeah. And you. I was very grateful to be one of the people that you have one of the longest runs there. You know, because it's funny, my first appearance on MTV was as a man on the street, like I was at a Robin Hitchcock show and Dave Kendall interviewed me on the street, which is funny because people were posted. We gave him such a hard time. He was such a sweetheart, too. Yeah, he's a good guy, great guy. And, you know, when they first rap the first era of 120, they had to.

me and Dave back as the guest. So we were on the road case. And it was like of your era. I talked about some of the people. And, you know, but I remember, you know, like, what are really interesting things about 122 was, it was just such a great place to, you know, to do some of the things that we did.

Like, I remember at the end of the show, we would do this thing where we'd talk about a band you might not know. Like, say it would be, you know, I mean, for example, T-Rex or the Velvet Underground might be, or Lou Reed, you know, something like that. And at the end of the show, there was a period where we were just doing that over the credits, but first I would tell you which albums you should check out by that artist.

So it was a little thing. Pre-internet. Pre-internet. So it was way before. Very powerful. It was, you know, a really important thing. And I, you know, I'll just always remember, you know, just not only great bands that ended up on there like you

and spending time with everybody, but, you know, one of the things that's always been really interesting, me about MTV was how much heat we took for staying behind radio head when the bands. Really? Yeah. Tell me that. Wow. This story is pretty amazing.

So we were really, we believed in the bands and I absolutely loved that record, start to finish. And so, but at that point, a lot of the industry was like, these guys are one-hit wonder. And so. Yeah, they were the band that had creep. Yes. They didn't follow up creep with another rock classic. So the word on the street was they were done. They were done.

Yeah, that's what people were saying. Which is why they also hated performing the song. You know, so, you know, small things were like, you know, they, we stuck behind each video that came in, whether it was fake plastic trees or, or just, you know. And what happened was we just, we were getting heat from the rest of the record labels. They would all go, but we have this band that sold a thousand more copies this week. And we go, but this is, song is great. The video is very artistic. We believe in this is an overall album.

Tell me more because I love this idea that you're getting heat on something. Yeah. It's something we can all relate to. Yeah, I mean, they were like, they'd be, you know, saying, but this record sold an extra thousand companies. But we really believe in this. So we're going to, so we push back against it. It's a pretty incredible story because when Tom York came in and they came in and

gave us gold records for the bends, Tom was standing there, me and Louis Sargent and Andy Shone, and we were all in this one room where we, it was the room where we basically, you know, do the meeting where we, you know, pick the, you know, the place and when artists come in and visit. So I will never forget when Tom gave us the gold records, you know, and the label was there,

and he was just standing there and it circled me and Andy and Lewis. because I remember I remember so much detail guys that's the craziest thing after the stroke like it was just it's still there and I'm so grateful but it's unbelievable

you're bionic but so it was I will never forget this moment so Tom walked up to us and we're sitting there we're holding the gold records for the bends and you walk somebody and goes I just want you to know

I know how much heat you took for staying behind this record and I want you know what it means means to me and he burst into tears. And it was beautiful. It was the most beautiful things ever. And in the show and looked at me and said,

you know, this is why we do this. This is what it's about. And it was such a beautiful moment. Yeah. I'll never forget it. That's why the, you know, again, it's my dramatic phrase, but that's why the death of MTV is painful to me because I know it was such an engine for breaking new artists.

Yeah. And now, because I meet young people all the time, and usually it's their parents that want to talk to me. Yeah. And they say, what, what can my kid do? And I go, I wouldn't even know where to tell you to start, especially for young women who are immediately put under the sort of the microscope of, are you going to sexualize yourself to get fake attention and hope to convert that into musical attention? Yeah. That's a tough ecosystem. Yeah, really. So what do you tell an 18-year-old girls' parents of how to break in the music business today, 2026? Well, that's a lot of,

That's why when I was at Spotify, I felt like a lot of, not pressure, but opportunity, that that was my moment to fight for the artists. Yeah. Because. But you did. And that's really what I said out to do. We see the benefits of your work now kicking in. Thank you. I was just like you where I care so much about the artists, but I know that the audience wants to hear this.

They do. And they deserve to hear it. Oh, they want the real deal. They really do. And I would literally, you know, you're like, oh, I'm. we would watch at 40 videos a week. I was psycho. I was listening.

I'm not exaggerating to thousands of songs a week. Wow. Because I was like, you never know. And I would take artists from obscurity because I knew that was my A&R background.

We know when we hear a song. And I would put them on rock this, the biggest playlist that I created. I would create playlists just to have places to support artists. Which is a beautiful thing. I would just keep creating playlist. Remember,

every time I would, Every time I'd create one, I would send it to you. Yeah. Because I knew that's important. There's so many subcultures and just so many different textures and sonic stamps. Why not? Yes. And that was really what I think I was most proud of from being there because I felt like I was doing my best in that time to help create the, be almost like a cultural kind of translator, just kind of creating opportunities to connect.

Yes. And celebrate. Yeah. And I think that's a great thing. And I love that. And like you said, it's funny because obviously you were such a major and early supporter of Youngblood and then seeing the generations come together with you doing. It's just beautiful to me. Like Youngblood was literally a brand new artist.

So this is early 2018 in his first EPO. And I knew that he was going to be a global superstar. He's undeniable. And I literally just put him on the cover of Rock This because I'm like, this kid's a superstar. You know what I mean? Yeah. able to be in that position was just such a gift. It was, you know, it was great at your birthday party when I met him for the first time.

And he came over and sat down me, he goes, I watched your interviews with Oasis. And he knows who you are. And that was really cool. For me to connect those two was a very full circle moment. For me, it was like taking the man who inspired me from the beginning to an artist, I felt like I was doing with him that you have done with so many artists. And to connect the two of them was a beautiful. also at the moment. It was amazing. It was just about the culture. Yeah. It really isn't.

Well, I think what you're saying now is the reformation of the culture. Yeah. I think maybe on one level, MTV made us all a little lazy. It became the ultimate marketing driver. And then when it went away, nobody had an answer. And then, of course, they were spot a napster and the piracy issues with the music business. Nobody knew how to really respond to it. Yeah. Nobody seemed to know how to capitalize on all the energy of audiences wanting the music. Yes. And Napster made it easy. Oh, just go here and download all this. Yeah. Pick your own music. Let's stand 120 minutes for a second. I just want to share a couple of funny stories because this would be the, this would be the environment to tell them in.

So two things. One, we were offered an opportunity to peer on 120 minutes with Dave Kendall. Yeah. And we had taken a lot of stick from the local Chicago community bands. They didn't treat us very well. We were treated as a band that weren't from Chicago, even though we were from Chicago because our music was so weird. Because most of the bands at the time were sole asylum-type bands or replacements, three-fords. I went on the weekend, I got drunk, these type of songs.

Yeah. So Dave Kendall logs me the softball and says, tell me about the Chicago scene. And I said, well, I would, but all the Chicago bands suck. The amount of heat. Wow. got in Chicago was nuclear. I mean, it lasted years because of that one comment. And then the other thing, and, you know, I should ask them,

but my understanding is the reason we got the red hot chili pepper to her with Pearl Jam opening for us, then us and then chili peppers on the, under the bridge, you know, that peak MTV period for the peppers. Yeah. Oh, God. Because our video for, I think Shiva, Yeah. Appeared one time on 120 minutes and Anthony saw it. Yeah.

And that's how we got that tour. Yeah. Oh, that's a great story. I never had the guts to ask him if that's true. Yeah. But the beauty about that. That's amazing. The beauty about that is just how there were so many cultural changes,

impact of people getting played once or twice. And it actually affected life on that show. And it felt like it felt like goal. Like if you saw something, you were like, Yeah. I can still remember seeing Swerve Driver raved down. By the way, can we just say? Who the hell is Swerved Drive?

Right. And how great is that song? I mean, Swirrardt. What an amazing band. We did a bunch of shows. Yeah. And I've talked about Catherine Wheel bands like that that we loved, you know, over the years. But, yeah, Swirder Driver, so, so heavy, but yet so.

Look at the connections. Pumpkins played with Catherine Rueh, Pumpkins played with Swerve Driver. Yeah. We played with a lot of the bands that we first saw on 120 minutes. We ended up playing with those bands. 20 minutes was like a treasure trove, you know, of just like these golden tickets, you know, these golden acts. It just felt like you were in the inside of something very special. You know, like I always say, it was an absolute honor to host the show.

And it was also, it was just such a beautiful opportunity. You know, to be one of the longest running hosts of the show, me and Kendall, definitely being the two longest running ones. it was just an incredible experience because it's what I was doing on radio and in the weird way what I was doing in school when I was like music obsessed nerd kid bringing records to school

to show people that's the power of the DJ you know what I mean so so I'm very you know like it's again being part of that history is a beautiful thing yeah so I'll tell a quick story um

Dick Beyondy was a legend in Chicago radio he was like the DJ of Chicago radio he was like the DJ of Chicago and broke a lot of the famous 60s bands, including bands that broke out of Chicago, like the Cry and Shames and stuff. Yeah. It was Dick Biondi.

And the shadows of... The Buckingham's and all that stuff. Yes. And my dad was friends with one of the Buckingham. So I actually grew up around the Buckingham's when I was a kid. Those are great record. I love all that. Pretty cool.

Pretty cool. Yeah. Well, you and me go down that rabbit home. Yeah. That's another show. But yeah. Anyway, so Dick Biondi was basically semi-retired and the pumpkins were starting to gain traction in early 90s, and we went into a local radio station.

It might have been local WLS. WLS being legendary since the 60s. Yes, and I think Dick Biondi was still some kind of advisor. He wasn't on the air much. He would kind of, it was more like guest spots. Yeah. And somebody said, oh, Mr. Biondi would like to meet you. And I said, oh, okay.

And he came over and he started talking to me. And he almost started talking to me like I wouldn't know who he was. Yeah. And I was like, Mr. Biondi, I know. know who you are and he goes you know who I am and I go are you kidding yeah like you are the reason I'm here like you understand the power of you on the radio oh yeah is the reason he was that's so but I but I my father was a musician but my love of music came from the DJ yes yeah that's great that's awesome what a legend it beyond is and there are so many great Chicago bands in that area of

top 40 yeah even funnier uh Bob sarat is transferred out of being a DJ. And now he's kind of like a morning guy in Chicago. And sometimes I'll be on Bob Sarat show, but I used to call Bob Sarat as a kid and request songs. Do you remember some of the stuff you were requesting? Earth went and fire. Yeah, what, Shining Star?

Or was it a... It would have been like mid-70s or even in fire. I just loved Earth-Wind and Fire. That's so great. Okay. Let's shift a little bit because would you agree that Rock is about to have another huge moment? It already is. Yes. It already is.

Let's go. I'll argue with you a little bit. We're not quite there yet. Youngblood, I think, sort of shows what's coming. Yeah. And maybe he'll be the first. The shift has begun. I love the rock.

I have so much strong belief in it. As the kids say, LFG. Yeah. Yeah. But a couple fun questions. Okay. Here's the fun question. Did hair metal have to die for grunge to live?

For me, I don't think so. Because I don't think it ever 100% died for the fans who loved it. Right. But there definitely had to be space made, I think, at MTV in places like that because it had to be. Right, there's actually coveted slots. Yeah, like it comes down to MTV and radio. Yeah. Certain things had to happen for, you know, like it's.

But I'm saying it's become a kind of a cultural thing that like, you know, grunge kill. Only in the mainstream. Only in the mainstream. Because, like, the people who fell in love with grunts. for a lot of people, it was just the timing where that was our first introduction to something we found. Yes.

Yeah. And some of those people, you know, it's like some of those people stole whether they were in the Motley crew place or the Metallica place that were rock fans back then or Van Halen. You know, it could have been, you know, but it was one of those things where it's certainly,

you know, generational shift in a big way. It was a good timing. It was really a big timing. Okay, so we'll start with you. what was the first time that you thought, okay, something's really happening? Like, in alternative music, late 80s, early 90s, what was the first time you're like, wait, something is different? Hearing smells like teen spirit. That was it.

Yeah. Like, that was it. I had made me, I can tell you exactly where I was the day I heard it. I was at Suzanne Rosenberg's bat mitzvah. And by the way, I was a dancer. I wanted to be a fly girl in a living color. Yeah. I was a good dancer.

I was listening. to like EnVogue and Janet Jackson and like I was a dancer. I was like literally doing like an MC Hammer dance and then Smalls Like Teen Spirit came on. And I, something happened to me. I'd never felt this way from music ever. I started literally jumping and involuntarily like grabbing people. And I remember running up to the DJ and I was like, what is that? And he was like, it's a new band. It's called Nirvana. Now granted, this is, this means it's already been around because now we're in the suburbs. of New York.

But still. And I had my parents drop me off of Tower Records the next day. I was there for 12 hours. Like, I literally was reading and absorbing all that I could because that's when I learned that there were like sound garden

and Pearl Jam and like, I just, that was the day for me. And that put me on a different path. Yeah. That was it. I remember that. I can describe myself, my life before and after hearing

smells like teen spirit. So what for you was the sort of first kind of flagship moment? Well, I knew that certainly that was a big part of it because it was so interesting that what happened was, and I can say related to smells like teen spirit. Because you can, I look at alternative music and rock because obviously you and I've talked about rock and roll.

Like we've talked about the purple to every, to ELO to a million things. To be fair, I think you and I see it in a continuous line. Yeah. Is that fair? Yes. I see it in a complete continuous line because, you know, when it comes, if you look on the alt side, You know, obviously there were inklings when you saw REM and Depeche Mode and the Cure having big records in the top 10 in America was very much, you know.

But maybe let's call it grunge. But let's say grunge. But that for me was that's, when that sort of happened, boy, did I see change. And it changed all our lives, too. It was amazing how great that moment was. And I'll never forget. So I'm one of the, I'm, you know, programming one of the 13 or 14 alternative stations in the U.S. at that point.

There weren't that many stations. They started to flip after things started to happen. But so on one of those 13 stations, I remember when I got the single, I still, I gave my friend the cassette of the smells like Teen Sphere cassette that I had that had it three times on each side because he's a massive Nirvana fan. And I gave him that original cassette.

They sent to the radio stations. But I remember when I got the CD single, too, and I was like, I literally put it on and went, holy shit. I mean, there was just something very, very unbelievably powerful about it. And with all the stuff that was starting to happen in 91, it was just a period, you know,

because I was already, you know, a fan of Soundgarten. And it was like in the chili peppers. I'd already interviewed them. They'd come up in like an RV, pop-up RV to the radio station, literally up this like, like, you know, like rock driveway. It was Flea Hillel and Anthony to do a radio interview with me back. you know, before things happened, before Mother's Milk, you know, before John joined. But, you know, but that really is, that was a massive period of change.

And it affected our lives in just an unbelievable way because obviously affected your life, too. We were like, you and I see it linear, as you said, and as a line. But I knew something amazing was happening at that moment. And to be in the center of it, like I remember, you know, going to, even though I wasn't on MTV yet and I was going I was invited in so I went in San Nirvana play there's this five or six song show that they did at the old MTV studios on national where that's where they bring you in and do like a like a half hour special exactly we did those two yeah and you remember doing those so it was terrible but yeah but I was there for theirs and it's really funny because I'm standing over the

band if you look at the video of it oh is it with kind of the wrap around yeah kind of a wrap around viewing area yeah It was kind of interesting because I just remember the part on top of it. It was, you know, and then, but like I saw stuff happening everywhere. When that was happening, literally it started, I just, you knew something was absolutely up at that period of time. And it was just then it's really kicked down the door for a lot of things. For me, it was, I was already listening to Bad Brains and I'd seen the chili peppers in 86, maybe even 85. Yeah.

I sound played in like a friend of 100 people in Florida. So I was aware and I was already listening to Cure and all that stuff. But for me, the one Soundgarden EP, I can't remember. FOP was it or was it? Yeah. Yeah. That was the first time I thought, okay, now this is different. Yeah.

Because over here on the metal side, Rick Rubin was producing bands like Trouble and even like Black Crows. There was something going on. Eventually, yeah, too. Yeah, and I would go see those bands, even early faith no more. Yeah, but it was something about Soundgarden. Yeah. Kind of grabbing the Sabbath thing. Yeah.

And I thought, okay, now that's different. And that was right in my wheelhouse. I was like, okay, now this I understand. I love that. I mean, that was the thing about Soundgarden from the very beginning, and they had come through and go to those shows, play, you know, like I ended up with this actual poster of their first show from CBGBs. playing with Howie Pyro's band, you know, before degeneration. And, but I just, they were one of those bands that I served.

So they were in the first bands that got signed. Remember they got, where they, what, you know what label they were on? Yeah, so, yeah, they started for a minute with SST and then some puppet, but then they got signed to A&M. Thank you. They were the first French band that had a major record. So that would have been 89, right? Louder than Love. Yeah.

And I loved that record. So it came out, you heard hands all over. You know what I mean? Get on the Snake all these. Yeah. But let me put you in the room. Okay. So I'm at a sold-out show at the cabaret metro at the time in Chicago. And Sound Gardens, you know, they're about to start to have that moment. It hasn't kicked in yet. But they're like really the first band kind of getting across the line. Yeah. And I'm waiting sold out show and I'm waiting late, waiting, waiting like this. And I think who I can't remember who the opening band was. And I turned my head and Cornell staying right here. Yeah. Right. The guy looked like a Greek guy. Gorgeous. Absolutely. Gondon. From the beginning. An Adonis.

And you're looking at them like, you can sing like that and you look like that. Right. I know. So game on. Wait, I just want to say one more thing, bringing that out. From my perspective, of course, these bands had all been around. But, okay, so my first introduction was basically MTV. Yeah.

So you're seeing Kurt Cobain. We're seeing Chris Cornell. You're seeing Eddie Vedder. You're seeing Billy Corrigan. You're seeing Shannon Houn. Yeah. All of these. Shannon also beautiful man.

Magnificently gorgeous. I'm like 12. And I am like dying. You know, I'm like, not only do I, just to your point, not only do I love this music and it's speaking to me, but I'm also in love with every single singer here. Do you know what I mean? Like, how lucky for me that that was my imprinting years,

that the connection runs deep. Like the front men all had not only amazing voices, but just such a powerful presence. Well, even in Scott Weeland. Oh, my God. Scott, Scott. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yeah.

It was, what a time. It was. And you know the thing about that Soundgarden thing, too, is I just, to be honest with you, I knew something great was going to happen from the very beginning with seeing them in those early years. That's what, yeah. I embraced them very early on with that. You would have gotten it from the rock side. Yeah.

Because I love them. And I thought, you know, this. And that's where that relationship with them started so, so early for me, you know. That's what I'm saying. You of all people would have been like. oh, I know where this is coming. Yeah. And I love that.

I think we probably had a similar response. Absolutely. Because of our deep love for classic rock. It does. And you know, I have a massive love for that. And then, you know, like, you just talked about the Sabbath thing. Like all the things, those elements had with. But you know, it was so.

But you know, it was so cool. When I heard all those bands, I went back and learned more about metal because of Soundgarden's love for metal. I went back and learned about David Bowie because Irvana covered Bowie. Well, that, sorry to interrupt me. That's what was so funny to us on the artistic side, is these snobby record critics would write about the bands. But Kurt had grown up on Black Sabbath and Cheap Trick, just like I had. We love classic rock.

Yes. But if you mention those artists in the interviews, you would get made fun of by the New York critics. So that's why a lot of those interviews, the artist would be like, oh, I'm really into, you know, Joe and the jerk tones. Like they would start making up influences that. they didn't really have because it was more politically expedient to pretend they were into the same music that the critics were. Yeah. But grunge was absolutely fueled by classic rock.

Of course. And it was that that's why it was that thing where they had talked about the fact that there was a commonality with bands like the cult than why they were accepted by even all those bands in Seattle because they have those elements of what's great about classic rock. You could make the argument that the cult was the first band to figure it out. Yes. Because they were purely, I never thought about it until we just talked about it just now. Because you probably saw him in 89 like I did. Oh, of course. With Craig from Sisters of Mercy on bass.

And Matt Sorum on drums. Yeah, that's right. It was amazing. One of the best live shows I've ever seen. Yeah. Right. They might have been the first band with Rick Rubin to figure out by taking the values of alternative music and applying into classic rock formula.

Like that became the grunge. That was it. It really was. And that's why everybody looked at them up there in Seattle, what they talked about when they came up there, how much they loved them. They really did. And there was all that overtones of everything from ACDC to Zeppelin, right?

Well, even Queen and all of it, yeah. All these bands you and I love and that you love too. I do, too, yeah. So it's like, you know, we've had great conversations in the past about our first concerts and all that stuff, you know. So let me ask you this because I think this gets into the autopsy now a little bit on the MTV thing. This is my estimation, then I want your feedback. The record companies in giving MTV free IP made the fatal error that ultimately led to the demise of MTV. So here's the logic that I have.

MTV figures out, we can get all this free content, free network content. We're printing cash. And then MTV ups to pressure and ups the pressure. You've got to make more expensive videos. You have to sort of, you have to do it our way, standards and practices, all the stuff that came into play. Talk about any of it if you want. But what was interesting was the labels, if you remember this, there was a point. I don't remember the year. MTV gained so much power. It might have been pre-Grunger, but MTV gained so much power that the labels announced they were going to start their own MTV.

Do you remember this? Oh, yeah. And it lasted. Three labels came together. I remember Warner Brothers was one of them because I remember Mo Austin or Lenny Warren were talking about it. Yeah. And they came out, so we're going to do our own MTV. And literally within two or three days, MTV released a press.

release that said, if you do this, we won't play those artists on MTV and the labels back down. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, isn't that crazy? Yes. It's kind of like the radio thing. And, you know, there's been individual situations like that, you know, where I was approached by a major label other than when I worked as an A&R guy and we worked at Sony.

I was approached by another major label that was like, hey, I just want you to. to do content for us and we're gonna like not give our stuff to MTV and I was like but like still do stuff with them and I still do stuff with you know like HDNet which became Access TV and then

you know I was on the radio at K Rock in New York where you know Stern was and everything so I was do you know I literally somebody actually trying to get like to have me come there and just do that and I was like but that doesn't really benefit the artist if there's multiple platforms

So I decided not to take that gig. But, you know, it's interesting, though, because you're right, it's a very different world now because, you know, MTV got all that stuff without really having to, you know, pay for the content and all the other stuff. But it paid debit. Which is I'm saying that's part A, but then part B was when an MTV figured out they could get greater ratings with the reality shows, the game shows.

They played less and less and less videos. Right. Yeah. So the labels set themselves up where they were beholden to MTV as a marketing tool. And then when MTV turned the volume down, the labels had no response. Yeah. And then along comes Napster and here we are. It was a, you know, that was a disappointing thing where there was, you know, less music played.

And you know, I've heard many different reasons why. It was like, as we know, it's like, well, they do the, they rate television by the quarter hour. So if someone doesn't like a video, they're going to turn it off. So why not show another rerun of the real world? I mean, I wasn't in those conversations, but these are things I heard secondhand. And so. But what I liked about it was we would just put MTV on and just watch. So you were exposed to a lot of music that you didn't think you liked that you ended up becoming fans of.

Wonderful. I became a huge Janet Jackson fan because she made such great music with Jimmy Jam and Jerry. Those productions are fantastic. Right. So here's the thing. that's, I think, one of the sad things that's missing. Yes. With that you cannot replace with it just an algorithm.

Right. This is where you need curated content where people's real ideas and thoughts go into it. Yeah. But there was like a debt, that was the destination. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's, that's one of the sad things that's obviously missing. Yeah.

Because if you're constantly fit an algorithm with what you like, what they think you like. The rhythm flattens it out. So if you like one song, it just keeps feeding you more of a similar song. But that's only one note in your palate. Yeah. And it's one taste. And I think that what you said and you noticed me also. That's why human curation is really important.

It's the most important thing. That's why it cannot be replaced. Go to anybody's wedding. What are you going to hear Michael Jackson? Yeah. Why are you going to hear Michael Jackson? Because we all grew up on Michael Jackson. Yeah.

Even if you weren't a fan, you grew up on Michael Jackson. Yeah. So everybody plays Michael Jackson at their wedding because. because it's what it is. It's great. Yeah. Can I make one prediction about streaming services I'm curious about? Yes. You've sort of sparked my mind in this way. Here's my prediction. You're going to start seeing, well, you already are. You're seeing artists abandon particular streaming services. I don't want to say who, but we all know who's getting the most heat in the market, which is the market leader. But I think what's going to happen is the streaming services are going to become the new de facto labels. Basically, a high level. artist is going to go and say, hey, who's going to offer me the most in return for me coming to,

you don't have to even necessarily give me money, but you've got to give me marketing or you've got to give me positioning on your service. This idea that everybody's going to put all their music on all the services, I think is going to go out the window. You have any predictions on that? I think it's going to be really interesting to see how, I mean, at some point, the bigger artists definitely will hold the cards, but it's... Okay, so if you're a top pop artist, you're going to go, we got a new album right here. Yeah. Who's going to pay the most?

Yes. Yes. It's a bring a carpenter. It could be a simple as you don't have to pay me anymore, but I want a Super Bowl commercial. Yeah. Give me a Super Bowl commercial. Drive everyone to your site and I'll be an ambassador or give me a little piece of your business model or whatever, whatever. I think that's coming.

Yeah. Well, I also. Do you see that at all or? Well, I think it's kind of more complex only because, you know, what last year showed us is that physical, physical growth has, surpassed digital growth in the last year. It's the first time vinyl sales have eclipsed one billion in this entire century. My label, Martha's Music, which we sell through my T-House, mademezuzzoos.com. There's your plug, ding. Right. Nice. Every time we had a plug, Allison Hagan-Dorff show being. Yeah. Yeah. Our expanse as a label is now we're working with

major labels to put out other product non-related to me. So I think that's, because we've become such a big direct-to-consumer label. Exactly. And I think that's an important. part of the puzzle that we're seeing that, especially young people want, because they've never had it, a tactile experience. They realize when they're streaming music, they don't own it. You know, it's a lease. They actually want to own music again. So I think that we've been keep being taught that the digital is killing the physical. But I think that there's going to be an interesting thing ahead that we're not really sure. We'll have to see. And which means maybe albums will be coming back, you know. Well, I think that our behavior is changing from consuming music. I don't like that word to collecting again. So it's exciting to see what happens. I like to bang on about the death of the gatekeepers. Do you know what I mean when I say that?

Yeah. Oh, I do. Yeah. You want to jump in on that? Well, I know what you're talking about, you know. I think what's really interesting is I, you know, there, that's, I mean, that's one of the things there's always been that kind of there's been like the good good guys and women and then there's been like some gatekeepers that have you know it feels like they've kept artists from

progressing and promoting but that's kind of the thing we've always kind of kicked against to be different then yeah you know i think but i'm i'm enjoying my victory lap of the death of the gatekeepers yeah because i've outlived them yeah yeah i think when it comes down to is that platforms are always going to change. But the thing that is always going to be important are the actual people who curate and inspire that trust. And I think that as long as those people are there and that that community will thrive around it, that's what the important thing is. And plus that hunger for that curation will always be. It is. I mean, that, and that's what's so important. And it's like, that's why I still enjoy doing that so much. Well, you're in the trench on it every day. Yeah.

And I love that. I'm very grateful to be. Like, I, I, I, I, No, you are that guy. You really are that guy. Yeah, and I'm grateful for that. But I know, and I don't know what you're talking about. Because, you know, because we are real pure music fans and you're an artist, creative artist, at so many different levels, I understand that feeling, you know, like to see some of those people that have been. Yeah. Well, when you had the erosion of the major label system, the indie system rose rightly so.

Yes. And we worked in some of those situations. But what happened vis-a-vis pitchwork being the most obvious example is then they kind of circle the wagons and sort of built a culture that was exclusive, not inclusive, where indie culture was always traditionally inclusive. Yeah. Now it was if you didn't record your album in a basement, you know, and you were into pet sounds, you didn't count anymore. Yeah. You were irrelevant. You sort of turned into a dinosaur in the digital age, which was really weird because people with IP brand names have the most strength in the digital marketplace.

But I walked around for 50, 20 years telling me that my people telling me my brand was like a millstone around my neck. Yeah, which is... Well, because it didn't work within the system, which is the indie system, was like if you don't check these seven boxes. Just a different form of gatekeeping. Yeah. And I'm glad that at this point, it really comes down to... The audience decides. Well, that's the point.

Yeah, the audience should always decide. Yeah, exactly. It's the craziest thing. That's what I'm saying. It's like the people that label who don't like music. Yeah. It's like, I can't really relate to those people at all. If you're just, if you're not, if you're working in music and you have no interoperational.

Or gay keep keep people away from. I can't relate to it. It's literally the antithesis of how we are and what we do and what our mission is. Yeah. Yes. But I think that's why we're all still standing. Right. You know what I mean?

Right. Yeah. I had a music journalist from Chicago at one point publicly apologized to me and say, The way you were so, talking about me, the way you were so overtly honest about the music business in the 90s, I thought you were, to use the wrestling term, I thought you were working. I thought you were working the crowd as a contrary. Like you were trying, you were trying to be against it even though you were for it. And he goes, now I understand you were actually the only honest broker of the whole generation. Everybody else was working the system that existed. They got the goatee, they got the flannel shirt. They did whatever they had to do to get across the line. Why you, the ultimate weirdo, sort of stood there the whole time and said, it's all bold. Yeah. And now it sort of works in my favor because I've been standing there the whole time saying, hey, by the way, this is how it really works.

Yeah. So I'm happy to talk to you about it because you have the, you have your perspective from the other side of the street, which is why it's so valuable. A couple more questions. Is there really a distinction anymore between indie and the rest? Or is it all kind of homogenous and everybody's after the same pile? I think the current statistics are there 200,000 songs released a day. Do you know that statistic?

I think it's growing by the day. Oh, I'm sure. And now with AI, I mean, who the hell knows? It's going to be an S show, as my son says. I think genres in general are almost like, I mean, look, they're still important to kind of give a journal idea, but they definitely do not hold the weight that they used to have. How would you, like, okay, what genre does Youngblood fit into? He's rock, alternative. What genre does somber fit into?

Alternative. Right. But both of them have traditional pop skills. Yes. Now in the world that we grew up in, yes. Right. That ability meant you could attack the charts. Yeah. But look at the charts in 26. There's almost no alternative or rock representation. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain that to me? I find it disturbing. As somebody who works in radio still. Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like somber and Lola Young and Young are actually crossing over. Yeah. Right.

Okay, but maybe I'm being more broad in general where I'm just complaining. But for the last 10 to 15 years, rock has not been represented in the charts at all. That's true. But bands go out and do massive amounts of tickets. Yeah. Well, the live show is always going to be essential for rock and all.

Okay, so here's the better question. Here's the better question I should ask them from the first. What is it about mainstream pop radio that no longer embraces or hasn't? hasn't. Hasn't for the last 10, 15 years embraced rock music when those artists are some of the biggest artists touring. I think it has a lot to do with like it getting into a situation where with all the consolidation that happened with radio and those outlets, sadly, I think it's just kind of, it takes someone taking serious chances because they believe in songs and an artist. I think it's been, I think sometimes it comes down to, like,

and I've always felt this about any format, lazy programming when it's like you're not willing to give something interestingly new a chance to break through. It used to be because you could do things regionally. I mean, because of like, oh, everything, back to Dick Beyond. Yeah, like Dick Beyonde had the region, as a regional powerhouse in Chicago, he had the ability to break records nationally.

Right. Imagine the power. So you started like the American Breast. read, right? Like it did Bemi, shape me, you know, right? One of those guys ended up being the sound guy for six for years, right? Like, so, but there's all these cool 60s in Chicago. Yeah. Perfect example of how much great stuff came out of there in that period.

But it was that ability to break records regionally. Yeah. Regional breaking thing was so important, and that was a big part of radio back in those days. I do, it does, you know, it does disappoint me to not see more, you know, rocking more variety in the top 40 charts. I think they kind of really represent, you know, it's a different, you know, I mean, it's nothing against any of this artist at all because there's some really talented artists.

But then there's also, but it just feels like there hasn't been that opportunity for crossover. And it reminds me of the thing we're talking about with like the algorithm only feeding you back to the same thing. I think it's so dangerous. Right. It's so deep. It's very myopic. It's very myopic. I also think in order for rock to cross over, a lot of things have to happen. One, the song writing and the song needs to be worthy. It needs to have more of a pop crossover appeal so people who don't like rock will still like the song. Yeah. And two. Please finish. But I want to argue with you. Okay. And two, I think for rock to cross over, it needs to be like you guys don't get to choose. This is happening whether you like it or not. and it has to be represented. And I think that...

That I agree with it. And I think that for the first time, in probably 20 years, since the early 2000s, that's happening again. Okay, good. There is a shift. There is a... And by the way, Rock never went away. For those of us in the Rock scene,

I've been championing brand-new artists for my whole life. And really great ones. But they almost were not together as a community. I really do genuinely feel this movement globally of an exciting thing. time for rock and alternative. It's how diverse it is. It's how there's solo superstar icons. There's bands that are amazing. There's bands of all colors and gender. And it's just so exciting. It's a very inclusive celebratory time with great artistry, actual artistry. I think that everyone's just going to be

surprised by the next couple of years. Okay. So here's where I'm going to argue with you. Okay. Do it. I think that. that the form as constituted, and I fall into this trap too, and I'm breaking my way out of it, is there needs to be a radical reworking of what a song is. Yeah. And as long as rock artists fall into the pop idiomatic formula that we've all inherited from above, we're going to basically still keep falling on the same rocks because the pop class is ruthless in its pursuit of perfection. Right, with 12 songwriters and, yeah.

So my point is it's going to take a genius or two. Right. They're probably in their late teens, early 20s, to do a song that we haven't heard before. And I mean that literally and figuratively. It'll be like, this is so different. Just like the first time we heard, welcome to the jungle. Yeah. Listen to that arrangement.

Yeah. Is that a pop arrangement? No. It's a classic. It's so, yeah, right? Absolutely. So, you know, I think that's what's going to happen. I think it's going to be this radical reworking and the rules will be like.

And with that, well, the same page, I think it's actually going to take artistry, artists who are autonomous. The fact that Somber writes it all himself and produces it himself is unbelievable. But that's what I'm saying. And we need more of it. Yeah. But that's why it's only going to take one to kick the door open. But I think that Youngblood and Somber are two great examples of at leading the charge.

But I do believe they're not the only ones. I think that there's a lot coming. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No, we can feel it's going to happen. So exciting. Yes. It is very exciting.

And it's great one. Like you were saying, it's a great young artist who might be in high school now, but he's about to, you know, I want to say one more thing, and it actually goes along with the death of the gatekeeper.

These artists that are coming up that we're talking about are not only unbelievably talented and autonomous, they are creating their own worlds. Yeah. You know, even from a business standpoint. Absolutely. And again, look at Youngblood.

Again, I know we keep talking about him, but he warrants talking about. Well, I think, selfishly, I think that's why a lot of those artists name check, me because they recognize that that's what I did. Yeah. And they see the power and strength of that. And when they meet me, they want to ask me just like when I met Youngblood, they want to understand, like, why did you do what you did? Because to them, it feels contemporary in its world building. Right. So it's a great compliment to me that.

It is. That they saw that or felt that. Because when I did it at the time, it seemed very strange. Of course, I stole it from Bowie and the Beatles. Yeah. That's what I thought they did. Do the greatest. Sure, start at the top But my point is, I was like, I used to say to the band, why can't we be seven different bands? Why do we just have to be one band? Right. But when we were, we criticized in the 90s, we would be

criticized for not being the same band. Right, that's true. But what I loved about it, but the records told the different story. Sure. You know what I mean? Because again, you would understand the historical antecedent. I'm not claiming anything originally. Yeah. But it was great, though. I mean, even melancholy was a reaction to the wall.

Yeah. Yes. You know, and it wasn't like I just I'm going to do a concept record. You don't want to do that. Right. Can we do that? But I think it's important to wear your influence on your sleeve. Of course, you know, I mean, if you talk to Robert Planner, they love the blues or, you know, the Beatles of Buddy Holly. I think it's important.

I think that to say you can't be influenced by, and just one more thing about Youngblood, I want to talk about Blood. Sure. Like that's back to that business, creating your own world. He's created his own festival worldwide. That one's in it to win it. Yeah, I know, I know, but it's unique, but I think that it's sort of setting the tone. The only thing I would say in slight pushback is when the Gaykeeper class rose before they destroyed themselves in the early 2000s, they basically, it was like hit squads, you can't talk about these bands, you can't cite these influences. So my influence in an alternative culture disappeared for a good 15 years.

I mean, there's a book. I don't know, my chem gives you a lot of love. Charard Paises Well, they started the band because of us Right, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. But go find a bunch of other bands

from their generation that behind the scenes would give me love but would never talk about the band in public because they were scared of the retaliation of the critical class.

Yeah, but they were definitely so many. Oh, God, unless, I love these guys. Yeah, so many artists. So many artists. We say they're my sons. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. They were so kind, they brought me out at the end of their show, their stadium show in Chicago. Yeah, that's great. That was special.

Are you kidding? Playing with them, playing Bullet with Butterfly. He was on stage at Soldier Field. How did that feel for you? I mean, that's beautiful. It's awesome. I love those guys. I mean, obviously they're from New Jersey.

They're one of the great things. And they're such a great band and it's just them. I mean, they're bigger than ever. Yeah, they are. Which is a beautiful thing. And how are they bigger than ever? Because they represent something that's not easily replicated and doesn't fit comfortably in the pop world.

Yeah, it's the same reason that people are like literally, what, is Smith still have an influence? Or, you know, did that? The Smiths are bigger than ever. Yes. And they haven't played a show. And, oh, you would know how many? What was the last time the Smiths played the show?

So it was 1986. Did you see them during the Meet as Murder 2? I did three times. Yeah. I saw them once. Yeah. I mean, it was, and it wasn't like I was trying to out to do anybody, but I'm going to tell you this. It was just such a fan that I saw him two nights at the beacon and one night in Philly at the Tower.

Did you feel that? Did you feel that? Did you feel that? I'm traumatized. I went so. So I went and saw Johnny the other night. He told me a great story about some stuff that, like, it's happening around that tour. So, yeah, I just, I'm grateful we got to see them.

Yeah. Because so many people did not. I know. It's traumatizing. You know, because I was very sad when they broke up by my oldest daughter, Jessica, had just been born. So, like, I literally had tickets for the strange race tour, but was going to have to give them up because she was sick and she was, you know, baby. So I was like, I was like, and then they split up. Okay.

Yeah. Last question. Thank you for indulging me. Love you both. Let's, do you agree, Grunges having a second out? 100%. So excited. I can feel it. I'm so pumped. Oh, it's happening. I love it so much. I mean, obviously, I'm so grateful to have been a part of the history with everybody and being here documenting it. I mean, the part in it's amazing as, you know, just to have not only witnessed it and just I've loved the songs that have come out. And that's what's so great about with Allison,

loving that from that moment and also being with what you did as Spotify, kickstarting, you know, for other bands. I think it's great. And I love that era because I love full albums, and there were so much stuff song for song. With you, with Soundgarden, with Allison Sheens, you know what, Pearl Jam?

I love those. So I'm paying it back now because I do artist development, you know, and return to dust is one of my band. And because of your influence, we took them on my solo tour. I know. And they were great. And for me to be able to connect those dots and make that connection, I feel like I'm doing my part, you know?

Yeah. Return to Dust is just one of those bands. These guys are in their young 20s. Actually, Sebastian just turned like 18. He's like literally a teenager. And they love it, you know? And they didn't get to grow up with it. It doesn't matter.

It's not. I think it's even cooler that they like it because it's not popular. They didn't grow up with it. And they just love it. We were all in on the 60s bands, right? We were, we loved them. So it was our way of paying tribute was to bring the music forward. That's the closest thing we could do is to play their songs or give them.

And that's what we're seeing now. Yeah. I mean, when you would cover something like, you know, like, girl named Sandos, by the animals. Animals, which was like this cool animal song like as a B-side. By the way, not just a cool animal song. It was a song about LSD. Yes, it was. Sandos was the lab that made legal LSD.

And Eric Byrd wrote it. the song to the chemical company that made LSD, a girl named Sandoz. Yes, that's amazing. And I put that in the system at KSSA. Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's fun to play.

That's awesome. It's just so cool. But that's what I mean, like loving that, all that 60s music, right? And 70s music and everything that we all, you know, just incredible. So what is, okay, I want to say one thing about return to Dustin. And I have one little final thing. My memory is, I watched them a lot during the tour. mostly would watch them during sound check,

so I could at least watch them play as if not, I wasn't going to go out in the crowd. But one nice thing at the last show of the tour, they came into my dress room and I talked to him for about a half an hour. And I said, here's where you're going, here's what's going to happen. And it was so great to give them whatever I could because I want them.

And like a lot of other bands in that generation, I really want them to succeed. Yeah, we need them to succeed. We want them to do well because. They deserve it. Yeah. And it's also just beautiful because it's, it becomes really about that experience again.

So I'm really happy about the new rock artists. What I like to say is that because the mainstream pushed rock, alt rock back to the edges of the culture, we've had to get tough again. We've had to go back to who do we trust, what really matters. Yeah. You know what I mean? So whether it's mentoring or it's quietly supporting people or giving a little bit of advice. That's why the mainstream pop world is not prepared for what's coming. It's going to be a massacre.

Yeah. It's going to be a massacre. Authenticity. The collective wins always. Well, you can't fake authenticity. That's exactly right. And people are sick right through it. And people are sick of the polish.

You know, we're hungry for the imperfections. And that's what is happening now. There's something beautiful about the aspirational aspects of pop. When someone who grew up just like we did decides to kind of almost be. become like a god or goddess, you know what I mean? But at some point, it just runs out of gas. Yeah. It's like seeing too many airbrushed photos.

At some point, you're like, what do they really look like? Yeah. What do they really sound like? Who is this person? I also think in a time where everything is so filtered and AI, I think that people are craving human to be more human, to sound more human, to look more human, to look more human. Right. Phenomic.

That visceral, primal, human energy. The real deal. Yes. really is that person. Because that's where that connection is. Yes. That's what makes us human. What people don't understand

and will never understand the rock business is that when you see one of you on stage, that is the moment. It's the greatest thing in the world. I mean, that's what it's always been about. When I saw Metallica at the Aragon Ballroom, circa 1985, and they were two years older than I was.

Yeah. And they looked like the stoner guy next to me in class at high school. Yeah. It was like, how is that band on stage in a sold-out Aragon ballroom and write the lightning. Yeah. And it makes you say,

this can be done. I can be... Well, that's the inspiration. That's the aspect. Okay, so last question. What does Grunge second act look like to you? What do you foresee? It's a time capsule.

You mean like... Lay your bets. What happens here? You mean like the impact, the type of bands? You want me to be more specific? Yeah. Okay. One thing I've been on about lately,

probably to the point of repetition, is we've only known the baby boomer culture. Everything we've ever done is within relation to the baby boomer culture. It was their TV shows. It's been their magazines. It's been their, the way they orient information, top 50 lists and all this. Right. It's all going to go.

It's almost hard for us to understand as people who grew up in the shadow of the baby boomers that we will finally have our own culture. Right. Without them standing over the shoulder saying, yeah, but the Beatles were better. Yeah, but the stones were better. Yeah, but Neil Young was better. And I wouldn't argue, but it's not relevant to the sense of, yes, that's true.

These artists were great, but I still need my music, my people. Yeah. And I think Gen Xx is finally going to have its sort of moment of like, and you saw it with Melissa Optemar's book coming out. Yeah. In many ways, it's a first shot across the bow of the power of these untold stories. Yeah. Think about it.

It's been 30 years since the peak of grunge. And most of the stories haven't been told. They really haven't. And the ones that have been told have been told, usually through the, the prisms of baby boomers. Yeah. So they tell you the value of those banks. They tell you.

Well, we knew the value from day one. And I think that's a great thing. I think it's the fact that bands like Return to Dust bands that are being inspired by the bands from that era and that period is a beautiful thing. So what's the second act look like? I'm going to put you on the block. You got to take a guess. What's it look like? Well, I don't think it's going to be the same way as it was the first time.

I think it's going to be really exciting and fresh and new. new, but I think it's also just one part of the new landscape because there's so many exciting new artists coming. But are we going to see, are we going to see Gen X movies again? Are we going to, because think about it. Because I had a meeting with the studio, gosh, almost 10 years ago. Think about it. Since the singles movie.

Yeah. Okay. What's the other great grunge era movie? Are you saying like it's time now? It's been 30 plus years. Oh, you mean as far as the impact of a grunge revival in general? You go in every other generation. There's like 14 rock movies.

Yeah. Okay. What's the other Gen X rock movie? I mean, Singles was, and the soundtrack just speaks. No, but I'm saying, why wasn't there another one? Like there's talk about doing a Kirk Cobain biopic, right? Yeah. I'm saying, doesn't it strike you as odd?

That there was all this commerce, all this energy, all this groundbreaking stuff, gender bending, people coming to the marketplace that previously had been excluded from the stage, all of it. Yeah. You said you were empowered by seeing women on stage that you could relate to.

Yeah. Where are those stories? Yeah. You see what I'm saying? It's like, it's a setup question because there is no answer. The answer is there isn't one. Yeah.

No, and it's true. And it's, well, it's funny because I still love that soundtrack is one of the best. There's so many good sounds like, but that one is so important. I just played drowned by you And who got me on that soundtrack, Chris Cornell.

That's amazing. Yeah. And seasons is one of the greatest. But single soundtrack, which, by the way, is my favorite soundtrack ever. It came out before Grunge, you know. It actually was part of the reason why Grunge joined the names. But you understand what I'm harping up. Yeah.

What you're saying. Absolutely. Where are the books? Where are the movies? Where are the Netflix series? Like, you understand? We've been ignored for a good 15 years. Well, I'll tell you what.

You know, we're naming, you know, return to dust, untitled. there's a plethora of these bands that are all Grunge-inspired. Now, we'll see how they do. They're all really good. We'll see what happens. It could be a revival in general as an homage to, you know, the influences. Well, in a perfect world, I think you see a whole crop of bands doing what they do, and they're emotionally related. Right.

Not yet. If they're musically related, that's fine. We stole plenty from the 60s. But we were after something completely different than, say, Jefferson Airplane. I think that's pretty obvious. even though we like Jefferson Airplane. But I think what you'll see is the cultural review that's long overdue, like Courtney's about to have a big moment.

I know. I'm excited. I'm really excited. And I've heard my four songs from her new record, and it's great. Right? With Will Sargent. Will Sargent playing on the record. So we're a big accom to buddy men fans. We love Will. But also, you know, they heard duets with Michael Stipe and Bill Joe Armstrong and then some of our original songs. There's like one called, am I allowed to curse here or what?

you'll be bleaked out You'll cut it, right, yeah. I don't say, but there's one that's the title is pretty amazing. And I think I'll just leave in people's imagination and just wait. But I actually heard four songs

I thought they sounded amazing. I got roped into working on the record, but that's a different story. Yeah, because I love what I heard. I'm glad. You know, I love your work with Courtney. Well, to be fair, I offered for years to work with her and she kept blowing me off. And so she presented the record when it was done.

And then now I've been part of the like, that's the back end. I say. What needs to be fixed. Yeah. Which is totally fine. I mean, obviously, celebrity skin was, you know, yeah.

God bless. But to answer your question, I do think grunge is really going to have a real big impact. And I do think there will be some grunge homage cultural pieces. But what I also want to say is just think about how many great bands, you know, when you see the impact of turnstile and sleep token and now president and the warning and Echavandal and, like, Florence Road coming up.

It is an exciting. Love it. I love it. Last snapshot, and we'll go away. Okay. Okay. You know and you know and I know that Rock's about to like storm the castle again. Yes. We see it. We can feel it. I certainly see it. I mean, we just played 75,000 people in Mexico and it was 25 and under for 75,000. Yeah. That's amazing. That's what's happening. Yes. Younger. Okay. Now, we all remember the moment. We all remember the moment where Jethro Tull. I'm sure you love Jethro Tull. I'm sure you love Jeth. You and I both do. Okay. Right. But when Jethro Toll won the Grammy and Metallica didn't, and everybody pulled their hair out. Yeah. Or the hair that you and I used to have out. Yes. Right? Yeah. And said, how is this possible that the hottest, most innovative new metal band in the world doesn't win the metal Grammy and a band that's sort of past their prime? Yeah. Definitely.

Uh, uh, does. And that became a huge sort of talking point. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to give you the new version of that. Okay. Okay. I'm watching the Black Sabbath tribute. Yeah. Okay. I like post-posts. Malone. He did an incredible job. Who's up there on the stage? Slash is up there, Duff's up there, who else was up there? Andrew Watt was up there. Who else? Nuno. Nguyencourt. And who was playing drums? Todd? Chad. Chad Smith. Yeah. Okay. But who's in the crowd watching Youngblood? Yeah. You got the hottest young rock. Right, right, right. Superstar in the world. Who just won a Grammy for doing a Sabbath song.

Yeah. Watching this performance. That was weird. That was an oversaw. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's not exactly the same, but I'm saying it's like that. Yeah. That world is out of touch with what's actually happening on the street.

Yeah. Because he should have been part of that. 100%. Okay. Because he was great. So when I, so when I ask you, why isn't mainstream radio playing rock artists, there's another example. That world is out of touch with what's happening.

Yeah. So they're in for a big show. shock. Yeah. Because you know when the Rock kids storm the castle, it's going to get. Yeah. And Rock needs to get to a place where it's undeniable. And I think we're getting there again.

I think that's where I see it going. Well, that's where you get into the messianic stuff of you just need one to figure it out. Absolutely. You need a Bob Marley or Kurt Cobain or a John Lennon to go, I've got the song just for you. Yeah. We're just uneniable. Even a Laura Niro, right? There's those brilliant minds that sort of see something that doesn't exist.

Yeah. And they go, I'm going to do that. Yeah. So God bless. Great talking to both of you. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Billy. This is the sound of captivity.

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