The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Michael Sweet (Stryper) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Michael Sweet joins Billy Corgan to revisit his band Stryper’s unlikely rise from the Sunset Strip to MTV—with an openly professed faith in God at the center of it all.Sweet recalls crossing paths with Ratt, Mötley Crüe, and W.A.S.P., becoming in the 1980’s metal’s unmistakable black-and-yellow outsiders; whilst facing resistance from both the rock world and the church. He considers whether the band’s faith may have kept them from becoming even bigger and revisits the awkward moment David Cassidy spotted him somewhere a Christian rocker probably shouldn’t have been.Sweet explains why today he feels more driven than ever to keep creating. With his latest solo album, The Master Plan, and Stryper’s newest Throne of Thorns, he isn’t slowing down anytime soon. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I just stay on my path, man. I've got tunnel vision. And it's just how I'm built. A heavy metal band that's singing about Jesus in 1984 or whatever, that is very outside the line that was going. God was doing some great things with the band and through the band. They're really metal. They're really good.

They wear stripes, but they're really into Jesus. We got caught up in the rock music scene. Yeah. And stop going to church. And you've touched the highest heights of the music business. I'd go home every night. I'd take a shower. There's spiders watching out on my hair.

That's freaks me out more than anything. What do we need to know about the cranberry business? It's like, is there a secret? Oh, my gosh, there's a lot. Michael Sweet, thank you so much for being here. A real pleasure to have you on my podcast. Incredible honor to be here. Truly.

So you just met your lovely wife. You guys are busy. I mean, you just put out a faith album, which is Master Plan. that came out. These don't always come out. So we're talking 2026, but by the time this comes out, this stuff is out. So Master Plan is out. And then as we're speaking, the Striper album is about to come out, which is called Throne of Thorns.

Yeah, it's a tongue twister. Throne of Throne of Thorn. Say that fast three times. And you're also doing a lot of touring on the Isaiah 5352 tour. Is that accurate? Well, if that's the name of the tour, I'm learning that right now. but that's a great title for it. That's what it said.

That's also most striper fans know that that's a scripture that we found to go along with our. Do you know the scripture off the top of your head at your, can I read it? You can read, absolutely read it. I know it, but please read it. Okay. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our inequities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him.

And by his stripes, we are here. Yeah, meaning obviously what Christ went through on the cross. We are healed. We are saved. Sorry to interrupt you. I didn't know what stripes meant in a biblical context, but I looked it up. And is, am I right and understanding it's basically the marks that he got in his way? The lashings that he took being beaten. And that's, you know, interestingly enough, before we were a striper, the stripes had no significance. They were just stripes. Everything was yellow and black and we had stripes. We were called Rock's regime. This is back in 82, 83.

Right. And once we became Striper, when we signed with Enigma Records, we found that scripture and everything started to make sense. I always thought it was connected, so. It wasn't originally because we weren't, we became Christians at an early age, walked away, got out of church, got into the whole L.A. club scene, sex drugs and rock and roll. Don't skip past that.

We'll get to that in a second. And then we became Striper. We dedicated our lives, and that's when it all made sense. So you came into my life, soldiers under command. I had that record. Wow.

Because I heard there's this new band. So this is what I heard on the street when I was a kid. So what of you were this, 805? 1985. All I heard was there's this great new band and they wear stripes.

Oh, and they're really into God. Oh, yeah. Can you imagine like, you know, because I was like, whatever, 17 years old in that year. So all you hear is like, hey, they're really metal, they're really good,

they wear stripes, but they're really into Jesus. It was a weird thing to hear, you know, in Chicago, I can imagine it. Very weird. Yeah. So,

and Michael Wagner, produced that. Michael Wagner produced that album and that was a moment in our musical career journey that that blew our minds that we got to work with Michael Wagner. He was the guy at the time. He was the guy. In many ways he still is the guy.

Absolutely. In my opinion, no one's ever kind of bested his vision of almost kind of melodic metal and is that a fair thing? Do you think? I think so. Absolutely. And at the time when we first met Michael, I mean, we were intimidated. We were kids. You know, we were young. We were like, oh, my gosh, Michael Wagner.

Even his name has a kind of... It was very intimidating. He came to see us perform live at Nottsbury Farm in Buena Park. And I'll never forget. We were so nervous. It was unreal. We could hardly perform, but at least, speaking for myself. And having met him, he loved us. We loved him. We went in and we recorded at Amigo, which is where our favorite band of all time, Van Halen, huge influence, recorded. So we were like, what is happening here? Yeah. And we made an album very quickly. We recorded that album in about a week, a little over a week.

Drums were done in one day, one night, you know, that sort of thing. And it was interesting. I remember, I recall, I can see it now in my mind. We were playing that album out every night for a good year. So everything was one take. And we would, Michael would hit record, and we would do the track, and he would go, Yeah, great. And this was how the whole album was made.

But I watched a clip of you guys from back in the day, and you guys played really good live. So I can see it because you sound very record-like and like a lot of the other bands that really benefited from that type of production. We work hard. You guys sort of had your stuff together. We work hard, and I'm the slave driver. We'll get to that, too. I have a similar reputation. I just want to make a sort of interesting point because, you know, when I'm putting together the questions I want to ask guests, you know, there's a sort of kind of flow.

But I thought this is a good way to sort of set the whole conversation up, right? Going back to me as a kid hearing, like they're really into Jesus. The only other time I'd really heard that from a musician that I was interested in was Mark Farner of Grandfunk. Oh, yeah. Because at some point, Mark had, you know, became a Christian. Born again or whatever. And I remember people talking about. about it dismissively. And I even remember some metal fans talking about you guys dismissively,

like, you know, yeah, but they're into God or whatever. You know, it's like this vibe. But I always think it's funny because as somebody who listened to Merseal Fate Slayer and Striper at the same time, it strikes me odd that nobody really blanches at listening to death metal or scary or satanic metal or, you know, whatever. But somehow, somehow, God in the mix is like, whoa, hold on, let's slow down. You're preaching to the choir, and I've said this in interviews in different ways. My little brain will never comprehend that. And yet at the same time, I understand it because we live in a...

But what do you think that is? We live in a world that is, you know, sinful and somewhat closed-minded. There's something about once God is introduced into music, people, not all people, but many people tend to instantly do this. I don't want to hear it. What do you think it is about a teenage mind that, I guess I'm going back to my own times in the 80s, but this idea that like it was cool to listen to something that was scary, but somehow it was instantly repulsive to some, not all, obviously, that somehow embracing

biblical themes or Jesus or anything like that, it was like, whoa, wait a second, that's not, that's not for me. Is it the idea that something is being preached? I think so. I think the scary side isn't telling you that some of what you're doing is wrong and you might want to or need to change your ways. But the godly side is telling you that. And as a teenager who wants to do that, you're rebelling. You want to go have fun and party it up. And I know because I did that. And I get it. Yeah. But that didn't stop us. We made a decision to do that at the age of 20.

I just started rewriting the lyrics. There's a lot to the story. Yeah. Can we just, sorry, because I think it, I find these moments fascinating. Yep. Let's start here, because sunset strip, right? I mean, that is a legendary time and you were there. Yeah.

Like, you were there during those halcy and dyn. days of, you know, people hanging flyers and the girls' hair and the guys teased out here. And, you know, I mean, so just take me back to that moment just from a musical standpoint. I mean, the sex and drugs part is interesting and sometimes it's in movies. But I'm more interested in the musical component because as I made the point when Tommy Lee was here and in private conversations I've had with Nikki Six, this idea of like glam metals kind of underpinnings and somehow into hard rock. this idea of kind of on some level simplifying some of the hard rock that had come before out of bands like rainbow and whatever like sure because richie blackmore like you know who i love rainbow i don't know if you're a rainbow fan huge rainbow deep purple and rainbow yeah i mean amazing right so but if you if you think about rainbow and you think even like even like even like even like even in other iterations yeah you know there's it's it's it's it's melodic in a way that's almost like you know uh renaissance fairish at times you know you know you You know, there's a lot of melody going on. And I'm not saying there's not melody in what became classic Sunset Strip Metal,

whether it's you guys or dock in or rat or whatever. But there's a simplifying down where you stop moving the bass around. It's simplified. You've got a riff that's moving around like crazy in A, but the bass is do-do-do. The base was like just ain't-no, staying on the route. You're just driving. Michael Anthony, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-d. Yeah.

But that's my point is something about that change and where Glam came in. So you got almost like clam melodies on top of complicated metal riffs, but somehow simplifying the bass. And suddenly it all congeals in L.A. in this unique moment. So can you just take me back to that atmosphere musically? Well, I mean, I just happened to, I'm from Los Angeles. I was born in Whittier. So I was in the scene. I was born into the scene. And at the age of, you know, 16, 17, 18, I was there with my brother. My brother's three years older, Robert. He's the drummer. And we were just, you know, It brought up in a musical family and always taught to work hard and don't give up. My dad used to say all the time to us, you're on the brink of superstardom. And we used to laugh at that because it became, it sounded funny. Yeah.

But dad was always the ultimate encourager. But he had success in music. My dad did. He wrote a number one song in 76 called I don't want to have to marry you with Fred Imus, Don Imus's brother. Oh, okay. And he worked for the railroad. And my dad's dream was always to pursue music, but life didn't allow him to do that. So he was very supportive of the dream.

Incredibly. That's amazing. Gave us every garage, bought us gear. He encouraged my brother to try me out when I was, you know, 12 years old, almost 13. I was just a punk kid and my brother was 15, more serious about music, more mature, obviously. And he kept on my brother to do that. My brother said, no, no, no. And finally he did.

And the rest is history. Wow. I might not be sitting here talking to you. Yeah. But anyway, ultimately, Hollywood, growing up in that scene, I was just in the right place at the right time. Really? And it was a movement because you saw all these bands. We would perform with Mickey Rat, Rat.

Early version of Row. Yeah. And then we walked down the street and we would see Motley Crew. And then we'd walk down to the Trubidor and we'd see Wasp. And then we'd go back to Gazaris and we'd perform. and we'd perform again. So it was just, we were in it. Yeah.

And it was just an explosive, very special time in music that I don't think will ever be repeated. And the thing about the 80s, as much as I love it, it was simplified. I don't want to say dumb down, but a lot of the bands from the 70s, it was much more thought out. There was a lot, it was much more complex, I think, in terms of the arrangement. If Jimmy Page was the archetypal guitar god for hard rock and heavy, metal. Right. No band had greater gravitas with guitar players and bands than Zep. Yeah. So somehow it got sort of not dumb down, but simplified into something that made for a lot of popular music.

Absolutely. But it didn't come from a desire to be popular in the sense of getting on the radio. Nobody thought they were going to get on the radio. So it came from maybe didn't even care. We didn't care. Yeah. I mean, we just loved to play and write. All I care about was write music. I would sit in the corner of the garage and just, right all night. But from your, because, you know, even your earliest music, there's that, there's that signature of that sort of what we would call an L.A. sound. Yep. Was there somebody that you looked at and said, I want to do that, or was it it? No. I mean, I'm just being honest. Yeah, you know, I'm just curious. If there was, I would say that band or that artist. No, we grew up incredibly eclectic music. My dad would

come home from the railroad, start playing music, and he'd start with opera. Okay. Caruso. He'd move into Mario Lanzah. He loved. Then he'd start getting into 50s rock, then in the 60s, classic country, you know. My dad listened to it all. And then my dad would end with Sabbath. My dad liked Sabbath too. Loved it. My dad was watching Journey one night. I went out, I woke up to go get water and he's watching Journey perform wheeling this guy. And he said, Hey, Mike, come sit down with me. And he's like, check out this new band. I'm like, who are these guys? Yeah. But my dad was a big influence.

So if I'd have to choose anyone or anything, it'd be my dad. But even if you think about Wheel in the Sky, right? What's interesting is Roy Thomas Baker produced that record who had produced Queen. Right. When I work with Roy about 20 years ago, God rest us, so he's gone now. I said to Roy, like, that sound, that's in the wheel in the sky, that's the sound of that chorus. How many vocals are on that? 24.

You know, he'd do three-part harmony. times eight. Oh, yeah. And stack them all into one mic, right? Oh, yeah. We did all that stuff. Yeah, but I'm saying is that's an interesting influence, right? Just poking around an influence. Like, if you heard that, like, you wouldn't think wheel in the sky would be a big influence on what's to come, but it does. Absolutely. And that's what makes it set striper apart, and this isn't to put us on a pedestal or anything like that. I'm just simply stating that we would listen to Judas Priest and maiden for hours. Yeah.

Deep purple. And then we would move into Journey, lover boy, survivor. Yeah. We loved that side of rock as much as we did the metal side of rock. Yeah, this will be interesting balance in your music between high musical integrity and melodicism. Yep. Which, as you know, not a lot of those bands could find the balance.

Yeah. They did when they knew how to write ballots for MTV, but that's a different story. But you also writing your own stuff too. You weren't running out and using outside writers. Yeah. And I was just, there's a weird, it's my mind is just a little odd. I'm kind of, it's a, it's a little bit of a blessing and it's a little bit of a curse in the sense that I'm always thinking about a song. Yeah. If I have to go to the market, my wife Lisa sends me out to get 10 things. I come back with four or five. And she's like, you forgot this. I'm like, darn, sorry, you know, because I was thinking of a song or humming a melody and on my phone.

It's just the way my mind works. So I read a story and, you know, please correct me, but this is my memory of reading about it. But you said this one night you're sort of on the sunset strip where you're standing outside, you know, drink in hand. Maybe there's cigarette in your hand too. And this guy comes walking by, you know, the classic street preacher guy or whatever. Yeah. Carrying a cross. Yep.

And condemning everyone for their sins, you know, not only the. there, but to come. Yep. And that sort of, that becomes this moment where you stop, you know, stop that moment in time. It registers in your brain that something's missing or you need to do something. So you want to take the story from there. Yeah, well, basically the true story. We were playing Gazzaris and Troubadour and whiskey and then hanging out on the strip every

weekend for quite a long time. And having not gone to church in a long time, you know, and coming out of the church. Sorry. But your dad had like Jimmy's under Jimmy Swaggart's influence sort of born again, mid-70s, Southern Baptist. And how did you, as a kid, and you're going to Baptist Church, which is its own heavy metal movie, right? Oh, yeah, exactly. But the point is, is how did you feel as a young Christian? Were you attracted to religion or God or formality?

Like, how did you feel in earlier years before you had your own? I was, I was attracted to it. It was a family thing. We literally, my brother started watching Jimmy Swaggart, then my dad with my brother, then my mom with my dad and my brother, and then the whole family. And we literally started watching him. And what we were drawn to, really, was he sounded like Elvis when he's saying.

Oh, was he was, he was Jerry Lee Lewis's cousin. Yep. And he played piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. I used to watch Jimmy Swagger through this. And Mickey Gilley is his third cousin. They all play that style of piano. And we love the music. So we were drawn to music because we're a very musical family.

And then we got into church. We became Christians, dedicated our lives, became part of the music team. And then I got kind of bored with it, my brother and I. We got caught up in, you know, the rock music scene. Yeah. And stop going to church. Yeah. And then we got caught up in everything else that goes along with the rock music scene, you know.

And after Arthur Blessing, had came up to me and was preaching to me, I was listening to what he was saying, but I was also saying, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. I already know all this stuff. I know it. Talk to you guys later. I didn't really want to absorb it. Yeah. Because that was my own, you know, whatever you want to call it. I'm smiling because I had a similar experience in the 80s. Yeah, I just didn't want to hear it, but I knew he was right. But I'm like, no, I don't need to hear that. So I went about my way. Yeah, I went about my way and then at the age of 20 a few years later, another friend came into our studio that we had hung out with, partied with and all that. And he was glowing. He looked like a different person.

I can't even describe it. Just glowing. And he said, hey, guys, I'm going to tell you right now. He goes, I'm a Christian now. He goes, I know you guys have gone down that path and you're not now. But listen, if you give your ban to God, He's going to do things that you never even dreamed of. And that's what started the process for me. Wow. And it kind of blew my mind and I literally just went in. I remember the other guys were a little reluctant. And I went in and came out the next morning and I rewrote lyrics to two or three songs.

I said, here we go. We're doing this. And we just did it. Wow. It was insane. Because, I mean, it just strikes me, you know, as musicians, we're certainly aware of other people's opinions. And especially at that particular time, making that kind of decision and say, okay, now we're going to sort of represent that. Now we're going to hide it in our lyrics and sort of just play along.

Like we're going to come out and say, this is who we are, this is what we believe in. Exactly. And we're going to sort of fly this as the banner over our musical life. Yep. That's a huge decision. And I'm not going to lie, it was scary. Because what's what, I know this might be the most obvious question in the world. And you might have the most obvious answer in the world.

But what gave you the faith to make that kind of decision? Because when you were young and you, you know, you guys were good band right out of the gates. You know, you know what you're risking. You're not just risking some guy from another band making fun of you. I know. You're risking like, this may blow our whole dream. And never getting signed, never breaking, all that stuff. And we knew that.

We didn't talk about it, but we knew it. My personality is the kind of guy. I'm the kind of guy that will just do it. All in. All in. That's just the way I am. And I can't change that about myself. And I think because of the way I am, I drive other people around me crazy.

Well, they're still here. They still love you. How did the other bands that knew you in a kind of more secular frame? You know, they, because, you know, whether musicians talk, they all assume that everybody's kind of pointed to the same direction. Yeah. Yeah. We're all in it for the same reasons. Guns, girls, fast cars, whatever, record deals.

When you make this shift and even your label, Enigma said they kind of heard about it and they were like, well, we're cool with it. But even then they had to sort of, there had to be a moment where somebody said, do we want to do this? Oh, yeah. With Enigma, and I still find this hard to believe, I don't know how this happened, but we did a showcase for them. and they came out to see us play in a warehouse. And literally some of our songs were like, da-da-da-da, Jesus is the way. I mean, during a break.

So you can't miss it. You can't miss it. And somehow they missed it. I don't know how that happened. That's God, you said. When we turn in the lyrics. There's got to be some Bible passage like, God will cover their ears. Well, we turn in the lyrics.

That's when they. They didn't miss it. And they were like, wait a second here. Yeah. What is this? Did you get a phone call? We got a phone call and they were skeptical about signing us in that moment. But it was brief and it passed, thank God, and they signed us.

They took a chance, the Hein brothers who were fantastic, Bill and Wes. And once the album came out, the Yellow and Black Attack, it sold like 150,000 copies in two weeks. And that was it. It was like, hey, all right, you got, man, we love God. This is wild. And that's not to take away anything from them. No, no, no, no. I'm just, I'm just laughing along.

I'm laughing because I just know how music scenes work and how people are. And especially in insecure times, like, who's going to be the next band, who's going to get signed. People get very, oh, yeah, money and reputations and what are other people going to think. And you can understand that because business is business. So I get it. I guarantee you that, you know, my band didn't get signed at different times because the A&R guy who was interested, who had come to the show, probably asked a buddy and the buddy said, eh. I mean, they're just as susceptible to reputational sort of pressure as anything else. And signing a heavy metal band that's singing about Jesus in 1984 or whatever, that is a, that is very outside the line that was going.

Very. So, I mean, it's just, I don't want to pick on Tommy. I love Tommy Lee, but I just, you know, in my mind is to see like, bro, like, you know, like, was there? That'd be somebody that pulled just like, bro, what are you guys doing? Like, did you have those conversations? Here's the thing. We didn't have conversations per se. Okay. But it was more of a vibe and a spirit and a thickness you could cut with a knife. Like, we'd walk in before that and hey, what's up guys? You know, and then we'd walk in after that and like, hey, what's going on, guys? You know, that kind of thing. It was more of that feeling. Yeah.

We're the black sheep. There's no question about it. Of the metal. The black and the yellow sheep. The black and the yellow sheep. But I'm, okay, so one step beyond that. Music comes out.

You're successful instantly, and you guys are a great band. So that doesn't surprise me. But still, is somebody in the back of their mind thinking, do you need to tone this down? Do you need to, is there any pressure, not from Enigma, obviously, but is there any pressure, even from the media? Yeah, we got more so pressure from the Christian side.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. Like, why are you playing with the heathens? Yeah, sometimes that. But more so things like when Tell What the Devil came out, the original cover had four angels sending the devil, Satan into the pit. They're pushing him down to the pit. And they're ripping a pinagram necklace

away from his neck and slinging it. And you can see the chain coming from Satan's neck. And the pinagram up here. And the fact that there was a pinagram on the album, the Christian chains wouldn't carry it. They said, we're not putting that in our stores. Oh, I see. So things like that. Okay. We had to face quite a lot. Now, I'm laughing because I had a line in one of my songs. in the 90s that God is empty just like me. And the Christians were after me for a while. Oh, I bet. I can imagine. I mean, I'd meet him in parking lots.

And I'd be like, you know, I am a Christian, right? Like, I'm on your team. They go after what they don't understand. God bless. Listen, I've been, what's the famous church that protests you? Oh, gosh, there's quite a few of them. But the famous one, you know, show up at your show. and Jimmy Swagger did that for quite a while, the protests.

I can't think of the name of the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was so honored when they protested. And I know what it is. It's on the tip of my tongue. Yeah, oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. You know you're doing something right if they're out protesting you.

Well, I think my argument, my argument to them at the time, at least I'm going back to my 28-year-old brain, was like, look, I'm a Christian and I believe in God. Yeah. So what you're doing is actually pushing me away. Exactly. Instead of embracing and saying, you might want to look at this differently or maybe you're leading people the wrong way or is there was to be a better way to put it. And I remember that my sort of, you know, my, my mic drop moment to all anybody from a religious side that's ever come after me was. Yeah.

If God made me. Yeah. Then how wrong can I be? And on the same token, I'm not assuming you're wrong. Mm-hmm. You see, if we're all kind of pointing in the same direction here. It comes down to love for me. Most of the time, maybe even all of the time, when people go out and protest shows, it's not really in love.

It's through a whole different side, quite the opposite of love. And as I was saying, Jimmy Swagger, he sent his people out to protest our shows. Jimmy Swagger. Jimmy Swagger. Wow. Yeah, this would happen in 1986, 7, 8. And here you are. You actually have a connection to the ministry.

And what we would do, we thought it would great to say, hey, let's go outside and meet them and offer them tickets. Yeah. So we would. We'd say, have you ever seen us? And they'd say, well, here's a ticket. Why don't you come see us? Yeah. And then once you see us and know what we're about, then you can give your full definition of what you think we are.

But they wouldn't ever do it. I love this. I don't know if it came from you guys, heavenly metal. Yeah. Was that your own marketing? It came from somewhere. Maybe us directly or maybe an outlet that we've worked with it. That's a good one.

Heavenly metal. So in this in this nascent period where in the sunset strip metal, whatever that conversion is, you got Doc and Rat, like suddenly you all start having success. Yeah. What was your commercial aspiration at the time? Oh, gosh. I was really inspired albums that come to mind immediately are Boston. Yeah. First Boston album. It was a huge influence on me. And I wanted to, that changed me as a musician. So really not any bands around me at the time, but more so, you know, the first Boston album I bought with my own money. And that changed my life as a musician. So that's an album that changed my life. Another album would be the Van Halen album. I know you're not asking for albums specifically. No, no, no. I love it all. So it's all good.

Boston Van Halen, Judas Priest. My sister was driving me to school. I was a sophomore in high school, and I turned on the radio, and there was Judas Priest unleashed in the east, diamonds and rust. Greatest live album of all time. And I was like, what is this? And I was a different singer before that, before I heard that. I never hit any high notes.

No high notes. Really? Nope. I heard that. I went home. I started working on my high notes. end and my high notes. And I developed a higher range up a registered nowhere near the level of Halford. But it's Rob's just, that's not fair. It's not fair. Rob's hitting high. It's insanity.

I mean, what's the famous thing like, you know, if you're an opera singer, you get a high C. Rob hits like high E. Oh, yeah, it's crazy. It's like notes that aren't. And he still sounds great and he's 70-somewhat years old. The best, the best. So those, those are albums that really alter my life. Boston, Van Halen, So in your mind, that's your brain space. Is that what you're saying? Oh, yeah. And you hear bits and pieces of those. But I also was heavily influenced by bands later on in life, like jellyfish.

Okay. Love jellyfish. I love the Beatles. There's a lot of, in our music, if you were to really break it down, you'll hear a lot of those chord progressions and harmonies going from major to minor and weird things like that. And I just, I'm not your typical heavy metal guy. Well, I listen a bunch of music in preparing to talk to you. And it would be interesting. I'd be like, you know, let's call it your typical metal thing.

Cool riff, you know, the band's rocking out. And then you get to some chorus and it's like, whoa, what's this? Like, it's written to some other territory. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very distinctive to your music. And I love that. I like going somewhere else. I'm not, I've never been a fan of albums without naming names where every song kind of sounds like a continuation of the last.

song. I like things that are a little more mixed up and, you know, as one metal artist said to me, I've done 14 albums in A. And for some bands, it works. You know, let's say it. For that particular band, it has worked. It works. But typically, I'm not drawn to that kind of music. Yeah, I get it. I'm with you on that feeling. You can tell a lot about a neighborhood by its small businesses. I love walking in a local shop and finding something. I haven't seen everywhere else. The selection feels more personal, and you can tell the owner actually has a point of view.

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates, national average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. I want to talk a little bit about guitar influences because I saw a note where, and tell me if this is true, that you bought Stephen Piercy's white, was it a Jackson-Sharvel? Gibson Flying V. Okay, Gibson Flying V. And that was the original black and gold.

Well, his was white. When I bought it from him, it was white. And he used that on at Azaris when we played with them. Wow. Stephen used to play a lot more guitar. Do you still have the guitar? I do not. Saddle.

It's like I want to kicking myself in the butt on that. I do not. But what happened was, God bless my brother. I love him. But Robert, my brother was the visual guy, and I was always the musical guy. And every guitar I got, Robert would be like, hey, can I tape it up?

Can I make it black and yellow? And I'd be like, yeah, here you go. But seeing that white V become yellow and black, had a gold top less ball. He made yellow and black, you know, tape and Man of War and all that stuff. Yeah. Quick shout out, because I saw where you cited,

is it, is the guitar player from White Lion? I can never say his name. Oh, Vito Brada. Vita Brada. Great guitar player. One of my all-time favorites. But I liked what you were saying about how, because he is unique that way, he composes solos in a way that's sort of unique.

It's like a song within a song. Yeah, and you cited him as an influence, and I kind of got that. I thought that was such a cool. I used to watch him every night. We toured with them. Yeah. And I wouldn't miss him. I would go out to watch him.

And I noticed about his playing was he never missed a note. Some guys are just blessed with that. Well, White Lions went. those bands like as a fan because I like White Line but like you're almost like they're too good they're great songs too but it's like some bands are just they're almost like too good I know I know I get it I get it totally it's like did you guys like walk out of a test tube everything is perfect the harmonies the hair the right absolutely and I love them I love White Lion and you know I love Mike I love Greg I love James who I worked with James Lemanzo but especially loved Vito.

Yeah. Because I'm a guitar player. Yeah. And I was just drawn to his style. I saw some clip of you guys playing like Japan, like maybe 85 or something. And you guys are just shredding, man, I can't watch those clips. Dual soloing. Yes.

Like effortless. We do a lot of, that's something we set out to do. We figured I always said to myself in the back corners of my mind, we're never going to be like those shredders. We're never going to be like George Lynch. Mm-hmm. but we can do what we do and do it in harmony. Yeah. And then we'll at least have that.

So that's what we do. The guitar playing was very good. Oh, good. Because, you know, it's like, I've never seen you live. So I was kind of like, I wonder how they were live back in the day. I kind of wanted to, you know, that's always the litmus test. Well, I think we were better live. I really believe that.

And what I mean by that is our albums never really captured the energy that we have live. I didn't know what you mean by that. There's a certain energy that comes out of us live that really hasn't been captured on our albums. Why do you think that is? I'm not sure. I really don't know. Maybe because we do it piece by piece. I see.

And we're not playing together as a band. Because we made an album in 93 with Bich Vig, which was very successful. But, you know, it was very poured over. Right. And then the subsequent producer said, I want more of the band that's on stage. So we recorded a lot of stuff live. Yep. And somehow we captured more of that, whatever that.

Did you hear and feel the difference? You can feel it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of people prefer the more, I don't want to say commercial, because that's not the right word for it. The more like the clear, defined. I do. Or the other one was more like dark chaos or something.

No, I get it. I prefer the more defined and, you know, plain quantized and in time, perfect. I prefer that. But because live, what happens is sometimes we come out of a fill and we're on and we're on, you know, we're on two. I used to, I used to, I'm still friends with Mike Garson, who is Bowie's piano man, as he's known. And Mike played with us on some tours. And he always said, we played seven and three quarter bars. You know what I mean?

He's like, you guys don't play eight. It's like, what is this? Right. But that's a wrong thing, right? It's like, da, da, da, da. And I get it. But that adds to the energy, though. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Okay, so let's back to this incredible meteoric rise. Tell with the Devil, 86, platinum record MTV. You're married. Yeah, yeah. Platinum, double platinum album, and everything just really exploded during that time. I have no explanation for it other than, you know,

know, I think we made a really good album. And I think also I would really like to believe, and I do believe that God's hand was on it. And God was doing some great things with the band and through the band. And I think we were with a great label at the time Enigma. They were on fire, too. And they deserve a lot of credit for that time as well. Do you look back? This is an unfair question. I try not to ask them, but I think it's unfair. Do you look back because, you know, like I said, there was this vibe on the street where it's like, well, that are Jesus band. If you'd been more like some of the other bands, like, you know,

because some of the bands, and we don't need to name their names, we know who they are, access was part of their marketing strategy. Yeah. You'd see them on MTV, sloppy drunk and, you know, doing their Keith Richards' imitations. I've gone as far as to say this just recently, so it's interesting that you ask that question. I've even said that had we not saying about Jesus, we'd probably be bigger than we were. I think so. That's just my thought.

That's why I think it's an unfair question. No, no, not at all. It's not at all. I don't feel. I appreciate you saying that. But I'm saying what's unfair about it is we'll never know. Nope. And it's almost like saying, would have been better if you were a drunk and loud singing about the devil.

You might be a bigger rockstone. We would probably be bigger rock stars. But here's the thing. I wouldn't change the thing. Yeah. Well, that's why you're here, I see. If someone said you can get in a time machine right now and go back and redo it, would you? I'd say no.

What I love about your story, just to interject my opinion here, is what you chose to do and who you chose to be. And obviously it came from the heart. You weren't pretending to be Jesus freaks. You said. This is who we are and we're going to embrace this, right? Yep. Is that ultimately you were proven right, that fans really do respond to integrity on a deeper level than,

then let's say, playing into a stereotype. I think so. Not only respond, but the big payoff is when you meet fans who were suicidal, who are alive now because of our message. And isn't this strange? because when we think of that era, and it's really a great era for music, and whether they were under Satan or not,

I love them all. But God bless. But what's interesting is that when we think of, like, if we were going to do like an Overton window, like, here's the most satanic, dark metal pioneering, you know, from upper Norway band, right? And you guys are all the way on the other side, which is the most positive messaging,

believe in yourself, trust God, whatever you want to sort of orfully simplify the messaging down to. There are way more bands on the darker side of that overed in window. Oh, yeah. Which is weird because life is not like that. No, it's not like that. But you, I read a quote of yours that I totally agree with. And someone had, you were talking,

you guys were talking about Christian rock. Yeah. And you made a comment, something to the effect, of make better music. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the bands got mad at me for that.

But see, I agree with you because I also feel that a lot of Christian music, more so worship music, is very cookie cutter and very much the same. You can remove the vocal, the lyric, and it's the same music,

you know, same production, same sound. I'm saying this to hopefully make you laugh a little bit. I mean, there was, first of all, worship slash Christian music, has seen a lot of growth over the last 10, 15 years.

I was just at a music symposium where they were talking about the growth. Right. From the publishing side of Christian artists and how they have these big audiences. Yep. But at some point, if you just sound like Coldplay, well, we've already got Coldplay. Yeah. And the reason that you're... And you too.

You referenced you too as well, I think. Well, that... You two unfortunately said... I mean, I'll respect to Coldplay, great, great band. But, I mean, they certainly took a lot of... influence for you too. You two set the, let's call it the modern alternative template for like positive rock and roll music or something. Yes. With some Christian kind of vibe in there, whether you wanted to admit it or not. For sure. This idea of like you can lift people's spirits.

I saw you two play maybe two weeks after 9-11 and everybody was weeping because there was, there was probably one of the only bands in the planet that could capture that spirit and turn pain into joy, which is a unique gift that they have. Absolutely. But, but, but, you know, if all you guys were were a decent metal band that sang about Jesus, okay, that would be an interesting curiosity. But you're a top level band who, by the way, made that part of your identity. Like I said, it came from the heart. So it wasn't a marketing tool. But the reason a metal fan like me always had respect for you was because you're in a great band. And I think that's the, you know, when I meet other artists, we go to a festival and I meet these guys.

metal bands that I've never met before. And they say, I'll meet him in person. They'll say, hey, come here, man. I just got to tell you, I love Stripe. It's like it's a secret. Like, don't tell anyone. And I see that and find that and hear that all the time. Now, here's another side of that coin of that question.

What about if you reverse that and you take a lot of these bands from the strip from the 80s and you changed their message and they were singing about Jesus, would they have made it? It's an interesting thought. Well, that's like, so we'll never know. Well, I like to, you know, I'm overly

quotable at times and much to the detriment of my personal life and my career, but, you know, I like to say that the music business rewards sociopaths. And what I mean by that on sort of a subtextual conversational level is that You know, it rewards people who are willing to put their finger in the wind and go with whatever is popular. Right.

And to a teenage person doing scary, spooky stuff, it's why kids love teen horror movies or something. It's like, is it okay to like this? So they follow. Yes. But, you know, Christianity, at least in America, certainly has seen stronger days than it has now, but still it's an overly Christian nation. Most people don't live, you know, with the devil burning a candle in their basement. Most people, even if they don't go to church now, they grew up in a Christian community. So it is part of the fabric of the nation, whether people like it or not.

And so this idea that our most popular forms of music are overly lean towards vice, I think, says more about artist sociopathy than it does reality. An interesting, interesting way of looking at it. but true, I think. And it's what's also interesting, there's a lot of these satanic bands that I've met that they're not satanic. No, not at all. It's just, call it whatever it is,

a gimmick, whatever you want to call it. Sabbath, the all-time great doom band of all time, wore crosses made by Tony, I think it's Tony's dad named the crosses. And to this day, Tony wears the cross. I know. And Geyser was a church-going kid and wrote most of the lyrics.

And many of their lyrics are about God and salvation. And we covered after forever, you know, based on that. I need to hear that. Yeah, we covered that. That's a great song. But yeah, it's just very interesting how the mind works, but it's the way it works. And we're not going to stop doing what we do. We've taken a lot of heat for it, a lot of persecution.

Again, I think you've been proven right, which is sort of the most interesting part, I think, of the story. is if you stick to what you believe in, it sort of tends to work out. Exactly. A couple things. Because it does tails into where you're going because you know, you guys, you're having this massive wave of success, but at some point you decide to make an album that sort of somewhat walks away from the spiritual messaging. But before we get there for a second, I'm not trying to make as simple a story as you're on tour, you're young guys, and there's temptation.

Yeah. But at least walk me through that process of the outside pressure. Now you're on MTV. Yep. Take that story however you want. Well, I think for the four or five year period where we were climbing and climbing and breaking as a band, breaking out, it kind of went to our heads. There's no other way to put it. I think it kind of brought out.

Been there done that with you. They went to our heads. And it brought out the old man very easily, unfortunately. And the way that started, if you talk to the other three guys, you're going to get a little bit of a different story from each guy. But from my recollection, it started with we went into rehearsals for against the law, and we never brought beer or alcohol into rehearsals. All of a sudden, one guy brings in a six-pack.

And we all looked at it like, what the hell? You know, what is this six-pack doing here? You know, I don't know, you want one? Yeah, sure. Give me, we'll have a beer. That's how it started. And it just kind of unfortunately and tragically that seed grew negatively. And the next day was a 12-pack.

Next day we went to the local bar. The next day we did this. Next week, my brother had a big party at his house. And we had kegs and, you know, alcohol all over the kitchen counter. So just I get it. Because you're so public about your faith at that moment in your life, do you start on some level to feel almost like ashamed or like a. sense of hypocrisy? Complete shame.

Absolutely. I couldn't live with myself. I mean, I wasn't suicidal, but I felt like everything was crumbling. My marriage certainly was. My kids, everything. And I had, you know, two little kids at the time. And yeah, no, it was awful. And I was going to bed with that every night, struggling with that because we were kind

of comfortable in our sin, yet at the same time miserable. I see. And I'd go to bed thinking, something's got a break. I can't do it. I can't do this. I can't do this. So I finally made the decision

to leave the band. I felt like that was the only way out. But let's walk back one step because this is fascinating to me and it gets to a deeper conversation I want to have with you about God and Christianity. But when you made the decision to make,

I don't want to put words in your mouth. So how do you describe the album where you say, we took an album off of God or something, something I'm paraphrasing. The album was called Against the Law. And it's not that it was a bad, evil, horrible album. It's just that we walked away from everything we said we were. But is that, is that you kind of slid there or you make a decision, hey, you know, as long as we keep pushing this,

I think we slid there. Okay. I think it wasn't like you had a decision, hey, we need to go off of this Christian stuff. No, no. We slid there. I think from years of getting beaten over, they had by the church most of the time. That's so fascinating to me that you were getting it from both sides. Oh, God, yeah. I think even back then, more so the church. But we got it from mainstream a lot, but even more so from the church. We'd go in and meet with people and they would just have nothing.

But what would they rather have had you do? I don't know. But not even talking about what they thought of us, but also things like performing a gig and it's time to get paid at the end of the night. and they don't pay us. Christian gigs. I mean, things like that. Yeah.

And not to throw anybody under the bus or say anything bad about anyone, but I'm just saying these things happen. Yeah. So I think what happens subconsciously is it started to build up and build up and make us resentful, make us more, you know, maybe even hateful to the point where we just said, F, all of this, we're done. And we just started acting out, you know, drinking more, going to strip bars, going, I mean, it just, it was, I was, I went through solid gold in

Minneapolis on a promotional tour, Oz and I, they invited us. They said, you want to go? And we're like, you know, a year prior to that, we would have said, no. But this time we're like, yeah, sure, let's go. We went, I'm sitting there with David Cassidy at Solid Gold. And you know what he said to me? He goes, aren't you guys a Christian band? Save it for the TV. movie. That's the scene. I know. But it was like a dagger in the heart. I mean, what do you say at that moment? I mean, I had nothing to say other than, yeah, out. Yeah. Wow. So you left the band because you thought, okay, I can't. Whatever this is, I can't keep doing this. Is that is a, is that

oversimplification? My priority list was out of whack and I wanted to put it in order. And, And I knew that my priorities should not have been at the top of the list, the band. It should have been, you know, God, family, then maybe the band. Yeah. That's not what it was. It was the band, you know, and then family and God were down here somewhere, and I don't even know what was in the middle. Sorry, I'm just, I'm curious because, you know, we all go through these similar dynamics with our groups.

And in your case, you got your brothers in the band, too. Yeah. I just want to see if this resonates with you. It's just, it's not a question I had written down, but because you're talking about priorities. I think sometimes it's like God and for people who aren't religious, I'd say, okay, let's say, let's say truth, just living a truthful life, right? Then family. And then when it pertains to your band, I always say it's the family of the band, that the family of the band has to come before the band. Because if you're talking about souls, it's whether or not you love each other and you honor your mutual sacrifice or even your karma together, however you want to put it.

Because when my band had all these issues over almost 20 years, I would say to people, if you think it's a musical disagreement, you don't understand this band at all. How do we make all that music? It's the family of the band that's the problem. We're not on the same page spiritually. We're not pointed the same direction. And that really breaks your heart. Oh, yeah, no. And no question about it.

And during that time, we were definitely not on the same page. I think maybe we, if you ask Rob or Tim at the time or Tim's no longer in the band or Oz, who is now in the band, they might have a different version of that story or how they felt. Sorry, that's every band. Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, and totally. But my version, my feelings, my heart, recalling those, I was miserable. And I didn't think the band was something that should come before and above my faith and my family. Yeah.

So I didn't see it getting better. I just didn't see it getting better with the band. So I felt like it was best for me to remove myself. and I did, I left. And when I left, it really destroyed our relationships, especially, obviously with my brother, you know, we were always, we did everything together. What was his, because I had a similar conversation with the Wilson sister, so both appeared on the podcast at different times. And they talk about this conversation, and they both have different takes on it. So what was the core, you're abandoning our dream? I think Robert felt betrayed

and I'm speaking for him. Yeah. But just having talked to him a little bit and heard a little bits and pieces, I think he felt betrayed and he felt hurt and crushed. He thought we were going to always be a team and stay together, you know, for life, that sort of thing. So when I said, I'm out of here and left, he was hurt. And the way he acted through that, I think, was I can't have anything to do with him.

So even though we saw each other on occasion, it was never the same. Wow. Has it since been repaired? Yeah, I think so. I mean, and it's still repairing. Yeah. Still repairing. But we've come a long way.

But I love my brother, you know. I love him. Without my brother, I literally wouldn't be here, sitting here doing this, talking. He allowed me to join his band, you know. So, but we're still work on that. We're polar opposites. you know, completely. We're just different people.

Yeah. That's not good or bad. We're just different. So I do want to talk about what follows musically, but I thought it would be an interesting thing because I'm a Christian as well. And I have talked at different times. And on some level, your being out and Mark Farner being out, at some point I made my own personal decision that I was going to be willing to talk about God,

in a way that I know most people in my generation do not talk about God in music. Yeah, wow. I even once said to Rolling Stone that God is the third rail of rock and roll. I read that. If you talk about God, you might as well throw your career down the hole.

And I made the decision that I was going to talk about God, honestly, at least God in my life, or believing in Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And if it was going to hurt me, I didn't care because if you don't really understand me, Yeah. How can I put it better? If I can't be willing to be honest with who I am, well, what am I asking a fan to believe in? 100%. I agree with that. And I feel I have very similar feelings in the way I think. Yeah. And because obviously I want your take on it. But it's interesting when you talk about these things publicly, the first assumption that people have is that you're preaching. And I can't speak for you, but I've never felt like I was in any preaching position.

Yeah, yeah, I understand. People say, do you believe, you know, if people believe in this or that, I said, people should do whatever their, their heart tells them to do. I'm a vegan. And sometimes people say, can I get, order a steak? And I'm like, if you want to have a steak, order a steak, like, yeah, it doesn't change. I don't care. Do what you want to do. Yeah, do what you want to.

But I'm saying, from your perspective, what position did you feel, whether you had a responsibility of proselyte or to preach or to convert or did you, did you feel like I do? which is just like representing is enough for me in this, in this, whatever this complication in it. It started out where we were involved with the church. So we had more of that church mentality, going door to door, you know. Is that from the Baptist side of the equation? No, not from the Baptist. It's a church called Calvary Chapel, non-denominational. Okay.

A pastor by the name of Rawle-Rees, who I still consider my pastor, love him. and we were really much more, I don't want to say bold, but much more church-minded in the sense that we would, you know, the goal was to preach more in between songs after the show. And we did that. We did all that stuff. But nowadays we don't do that so much. We toss Bibles and music does the talking.

We don't preach. We don't pull out a Bible on stage and start preaching. Is this, sorry, is this why on you guys and some, level maybe were hurt by the church giving you guff because you were out preaching the word. I've seen what being too pushy on people and with people does. Yeah. It's not a good thing. Yeah. It drives people away from God and we don't want to drive people away from God. Yeah. If our song doesn't say it, you know, God, I will follow you because you died for me, gave to me your life to set me free. Anyone who asks shall receive Jesus in your heart. It's time for you

to start giving God all the glory. That's the lyric, that's the chorus. If that doesn't, if that's not enough, I don't know what it is. I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I was just curious your experience in that because,

I mean, I guess because we're both loosely, you know, under the rock umbrella, there aren't a lot of examples of people like us that are willing to talk about God. Yeah, no. in music or God in the arts or God. And it's similar to what I was saying before, but I find it very odd that people are very comfortable

talking about everything but God. And I feel like I said this to Rolling Stone when I did the interview. I was like, why is everybody comfortable talking about everything else? Yep. But, you know, most statistics say that, you know, 70% of Americans believe in God.

If 70% of Americans believe in God, and maybe it's 65% a day, who the hell knows? Yeah, yeah. A lot, a lot of people. Sure. But I'm saying is if you believe in God, why is God antithetical to the part of marketing who you are? I think I have the answer.

Okay, please. Fear. I think it's as simple as people are afraid. I have met so many people in this business who are Christians. And they say, man, I think it's so amazing. I love that they're whispering to you in a trailer. It's always like that. It's always like that.

like, hey, dude, I think it's amazing what you guys do. Man, I would love to do that. I wish I could do that. But, man, God bless you guys. It's always like that. So I think it comes down to they're afraid to do it. And man, dude, you doing it? You're brave. And that gives me so much respect for you. Oh, thank you. I think that's incredible because we need more people like that. to speak out on what they believe and what they, what moves them and what drives them. And I think it's incredible. My favorite discussion, because, you know, you, you, you've had to have this discussion. You're at a table with somebody.

It's a nice dinner. You're in a nice restaurant. And somebody wants to sort of debate God with you. I'm a bad debater. I'm a good debater. But, yeah, I can tell. God bless. So the, you know, the discussion sort of starts somewhere along this line.

well, how do you know God is real? And I always say, but I don't. You don't? I don't. And they say, well, if you can't be sure that God is real, then why do you believe? And I always say, because that's just the way I feel. It makes more sense to me that there's a just universe, because if there's not a just universe, then we're just animals living in some sort of archaic code of behavior, as opposed to

believing that there's some sort of reason that we're organized. and historically over thousands of years organized to believe that it's better to be good than to be bad. Exactly. And what is that? Where does that come from? Well, I mean, for me, I, my faith lies in just that. It's faith.

People ask me, well, where does that come from? Why does that's why I always find funny. I always say, but that's the meaning of the word. To have faith means you have to believe in something that can't be, that you can't see, you can't feel, You can't touch. You can't smell. Yeah, exactly.

That's the whole, that's why the word is faith. And I always use this cliche of, you know, you can't see, you can't, you know, touch air. But you know it's there. You know you need it to live. You know you need it to survive. But you can't see it. You just have faith that it's there.

And boy, if it's gone, we die. Have you had, and I don't mean this in the spooky sense, but have you had supernatural spiritual experiences? Not really. I'm not one of those guys that goes around casting out demons and has had, you know, hands laid on me and I was sent 10 feet back to the room. And it's my path and my walk hasn't been about that. And now I'm open-minded to it.

When I see it and I have a friend say, oh, man, I went to this show and the pastor laid hands on me and changed my life and man, I can feel the power. I don't make fun of that. But I'm a little, I guess to some degree, a little skeptical because I haven't personally experienced that. Yeah. I'll be just being honest. Yeah. I've experienced though seeing God work time and time again, times when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope where I think there's no way out of this. Yeah. You know. When my kids lost their mother, I felt like there's no way out of this. Coming home that night, having to tell them.

How old were your kids when their mother was? My daughter was 17 and my son was 21. Can't imagine it. And I just felt like there's no way out of this. And I was angry with God. And it was a bad time. But where I'm going with this is coming out of that, my wife Lisa, and what God's done, the restoration in my life, in my kids' lives, has been miraculous, I think. So to me, that deepens my faith.

It deepens. I know that's how I know there's a God, seeing him work in my life. And people can say, oh, that's just life, you know. it's like, dude, you know, I read it all, I see it all, these people just, they don't like when you think different than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I would like to say to, as our common culture moves to a more secular, non-spircially rooted,

collective consciousness, we're not getting a lot of good in return. No, no, we're not. And that's a little frightening. Yeah, because it's like, where are we going to be in 20 years, in 40 years? Well, my grandkids are, you know, in their mid-20s and starting families. Well, that's, but, you know, not to be biblical, but that's the whole point of those stories. For sure. We're not going through anything unique that hasn't happened before.

We're just, we have cell phones now, but maybe. Well, that's, that's an evil all in and of itself. So I don't, I, I, I, I want to pick your brand on a couple of things. So, just to pick back up the story, when you went solo, you had success as a solo artist, your first solo record to sold 250,000 copies, which is no mean feat. In the Christian market only. Oh, really? Yeah, it wasn't, you didn't try to go pop at all. I tried to talk to the label.

I was with the label called Benson, and they didn't have mainstream distribution at the time. Wow. So they weren't able to secure that. I didn't pick up on that part of the story. So it was strictly Christian. Were you okay with walking away from sort of the, let's call it, the more secular crowd that you'd built a rep with? Yeah, I was. Because I was a new man at the time.

I spent time at home baking cakes from my kids. Is this where you also moved to, or you were like? We hadn't moved yet. Campground or. Yeah. Cranberries and campground. I remember. Cranberries and campground.

Yeah. That was, oh. I was like, wow, okay, he's getting back to the earth. Oh, man. No, this was, this was in 1992, three and four. Okay. Before I moved to Massachusetts. But I was enjoying getting my family in order and going to church and getting my faith. And not that faith is about going to church, but just working on that stuff.

And I signed a deal with Benson and we released my first solo album and it did very well. And we had like five number ones on that album, Christian only, cover a CCM twice and all this stuff. And it just felt like, okay, there's more to this story. Okay, good. This isn't the end. You know? Yeah. And so I just continued down that path for a while.

Yeah. And then moved back east. That's a whole other. Yeah, no, I saw. I just, I just remember thinking cranberries and can't round. Yeah. It moved in with my mother-in-law, sold the cars. Because, I mean, I got to a point where music wasn't paying the bills.

Yeah. And we, there are all sorts of things that came. banned filed bankruptcy as a partnership because we weren't incorporated. So if I hadn't filed, I would have taken on all the debt. So I was forced to file and I didn't need to. But because of filing, my life changed financially, obviously. I moved in with my mother-in-law in Massachusetts and went to work for the family cranberry and campground business. Weird. Not that they were weird or that was weird, but what do we need to know about the cranberry business? It's like, is there a secret?

Oh my gosh, there's a lot. I'll never forget the things I learned the hard way. But I went out to work the bogs the first time and I stepped on, you wear hip waiters, right? I get in the water and it's cold. It's in October. The water's cold. And I'm like, oh, this sucks. This is terrible. You're a long way away from the sunset strip. Yeah, long way away. But I was writing lyrics while I'm in the bog. I was still working on an album. But I stepped forward and I stepped on something big and hard. I'm like, what is that?

And the guy I was with cleared the berries and he goes, take your foot away really slow and pull it back. And I pulled it back and he goes, that's a snapper, snapping, snapping turtle, giant snapping turtle. And my foot was on it. The other thing that happened was we corralled the berries one morning and they were red. The next morning I came back to load them onto the truck with the guys and they were brown. And I said, why are the berries brown? They said, because there's about an inch of spiders. on the berries from the bogs.

They were trying to get out of the water to live and survive. So we had to go get in there and then what did they do? They try to get to higher ground. So they were all on my face in my hair. I'd go home every night. I'd take a shower. There's spiders washing out on my hair.

That freaked me out more than anything. Ranger Mike. I became Ranger Mike. Ranger Mike. So where am I going with? this. You you find your way back to the band early 2000s. You end up touring with Boston, which is a very interesting part of your life story. Yep. You have some health challenges. Yep. You lose your wife. God bless her and your mother of your children.

Yeah. And but through it all, it's this musical story that's intertwined with your faith. Is there a sort of a bow that you put around it? Because I feel like, and I've said this already, but maybe this is a way to sort of resurface the concept is like, I feel like you've been kind of proven right. And it's not because people have to agree with you. Right. But your path has worked for you, which is why I have respect. Because ultimately all musical artists have to make these kinds of decisions. Are we going to sell out?

Are we going to give the fans what they want? But it's not really what my heart is telling me. And in your particular case, it's a very unique story because it'd be one thing if you, like I said, if you were just this guy in this band and people knew about you. But you were on MTV. You've touched the highest heights of the music business. Yeah. And it's very interesting. When I look back on those times and those days and here we are a Christian band singing about Jesus and on MTV and our videos.

The devil's click around. We're watching in disbelief. They're beating out Bon Jovi and Motley. and poison and all the big bands of the time. So it was very, it was astonishing and incredible to see and be a part of. But regardless of that, I'm a man that, you know, I just stay on my path, man. I've got tunnel vision. And it's just how I'm built with everything.

Like if someone says, came in right now and said, hey, your calendar's full. You don't have any time to do an album. But here's why we want you to do an album. now mom, I would say, let's do it. If I felt I was supposed to do it. Yeah. You know, if I felt called to do it, I would, I wouldn't think about everything else that has to get done. I'm just, it's, it's this weird way of thinking. Your wife told me before we started talking to, you're talking about doing three albums at the same time. Yeah. And I threw that out as an idea to the label. And the reason why is because I don't know if I'll be able to sing in two years.

Why? Oh, because of your health issues. Well, because I have, I had cancer on this side. They removed this side of my thyroid. They didn't expect any issues with this side. Well, I have cancer on this side now. So it's small, papillary, slow growing, so I'm in great hands. They're keeping an eye, active surveillance, but it's very close to the vocal nerve. So if I were to ever have to go through surgery, there's a much higher risk of vocal nerve damage, which means I may not sing. Oh, yeah. Okay. So that's scary. Yeah, it is. So I'm just thinking, thinking, why don't we get these albums done while I can sing? And while Oz can play and Oz has had issues and wasn't able to play on the last album, for example, because of blood pressure and trying to get that sorted out.

So all these health issues going on, I figure, let's just go do it all. And they're like, well, can you handle that? And I said, yeah. You know, it's like no thought about it. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. It's how I am.

I was with kids. trolling your social media, stalking your social media. And I saw this thing where you had reposted this thing that Billy Joel said something about aging artists, putting out music. Can you pick up that story? I was with you on your, on your, on your, too. It would something do the effect of by making new music, you're degrading your old, your classic music. And I think this is the, I love Billy Joel, but this is to me is the silliest argument. And, and, you know, maybe I'm misquoting that a little bit, but I think that was the gist of it. In his case, I don't think he put out a song for 20 years. And I love Billy Joe too. I covered always a woman. And I love him. It grew up with Billy Joel.

But I just, I couldn't be more opposite of that opinion. It boggles my mind when I hear like Motley crew. I think something was said that it's not worth doing full-length albums. I think Paul Stanley of Kiss has said this. A number of artists have said this. And I think to myself, they've lost their passion to make music, to create music. This is what I think, whether I'm right or wrong, I'm the opposite. It's like, why wouldn't you want to go make as much music as you can while you can? Well, everybody from my band to record labels, to managers, to fans, I think in the last five to six years, I think I've put out over a hundred songs, something like that. that that's a lot yeah I put out a triple record concept record I mean all sorts of

stuff that's a lot and so it I'm taking it from the negative side of the questioning right which is which is like they'll say to me why are you putting out so much music we're on the same page so I'm this is my way of agreeing with yeah yeah yeah and and and I this is literally what I would say if you and I were just having dinner and just having a private conversation. Right. So this is, as we say in wrestling, this is not a worked answer. This is my true feeling.

Yeah. I say, if God gave me this talent, okay, it is my responsibility and my job to use this talent. So I don't know whether the song I write that nobody cares about that ends up on a record that nobody listens to might be the difference between somebody jumping off a roof. You're right. Or staying with their sweetheart or whatever. ever. That's not for me to decide. The one thing I have is that God gave me a special talent in one part of my life. And that talent changed my life. And I constantly get positive feedback from people

all over the world to say, just like with you, that thing you did or the thing you said or that concert or that quote you gave, that gave me something that I wouldn't have otherwise had. So in my cosmology, God gave me this gift and my job is to use the gift. And my job is not to sit there and say, well, I just really don't have time right now, or I don't want to deal with negative fan feedback, or I don't want to deal with somebody's 30-year-old memory because they lost their virginity card to one of my songs. That's not my problem. My problem is to write songs. I love it. And can I borrow some of that? Please. Nice. No, seriously. I feel the same way. It's like you're blessed to do this. You've been giving a gift and an ability.

to do it. Why not do as much of it as you can? Granted, maybe you don't make as much as not as much return because of it, whatever. Hey, once you're on stage wearing a bumblebee outfit and you're still here. I like the stripes. I'm telling you. Okay, just like Kiss, did you guys ever sit around say, we should bring the stripes back? Did you have that conversation? We have, we have brought them back to a small degree, like our guitars, our instruments are striped. We were a little full, not full on stripes. We, that's scary. We could do it.

We could, but it sounds like an Instagram means, doesn't it? Spandex, never. Never. You're a brave man. I can never do the Spandex. I don't think we can talk all that. God bless you. Great talking to today.

Dude, that was amazing. Thank you for having me. What an honor. Thank you. An absolute honor. And you're incredible. God bless you. Go listen to Striper.

Great band.