The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Micky Dolenz | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Billy Corgan welcomes Micky Dolenz for a conversation that peels back the curtain on a lifetime in show business. Dolenz explains why he always kept “Micky the TV drummer” separate from the real man, explains how the Monkees were a cast before they were a band, surviving the show’s cancelation and watching the Monkees phenomenon roar back when MTV picked up the reruns. Along the way he revisits his Circus Boy childhood, Boyce & Hart songwriting sessions, Mike Nesmith’s push for creative control, and the boundary-breaking film Head that foreshadowed the indie-film revolution. The result is a candid, inside-out look at fame, reinvention, and the craft behind an accidental pop-culture landmark. Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I always separated the person and the persona. I always knew that the fans, the girls, the industry, the magazines, they were in love with Mickey Dolan's, the drummer on the TV show. Not with me. I'm going to try this in a different pathway, and hopefully we can bring out some fresh, interesting, information. Because I know you've talked a lot about certain parts of your life, but I'd like to talk about some of the other parts of your life, too. So, Monkees' breakup in 1970, was the breakup because the series got canceled, or were you breaking up and then the series got, like, how did that sequence work?

Well, the term breakup itself is just incorrect. A group's breakup. The month's breakup, the month's, was not a group. It was a cast of a TV show. So when the show went off the air, when it was canceled, when the show was canceled, the cast did what all

casts do when your series is canceled. You shake and you wave and you, you know, you go, you're merry away. You stay friends possibly with some of the other cast members. But it's like William Shatner and Leonard

Nemoy didn't hang out every day going, beam me up. So we did stay in touch. And there was some post-series music that had to be completed. There were some albums that had to be completed. And a couple of tours that had

to be completed that we were already contracted for. But the bottom line is the Monkeys was never a group. well, you can argue that it became one. Sure. When we went on the road, it was a TV show about a group. Okay, so maybe a better way to ask a question is,

the day you wake up, whatever that day is in 1970-something, and you go, right, that's done, what's next? Like, what's your mindset at that point? I only speak for myself. Yeah, by the way. I'm only interested in your perspective. Because I'd already been in the business at that time 15 years from my first series when I was 10. I was used to having a show canceled.

I'd already had one canceled when I was a kid after three years. And so I kind of knew exactly what to expect. Are you in your mind at that point, and even now, are you an actor first and a musician second? And, you know what's the pecking order in your brain? Actor. Actor. So the first thing you want to do is I need another acting gig. Well, actually, no, at the time, I'd already was fed up with acting.

It had been 15 years. I wanted to direct. I wanted to write and direct and produce. I'd always been fascinated with behind the scenes, even as a child. You directed the last episode. I directed the last episode and wrote. And that's the direct. my mind was going.

Okay, that's kind of what I'm after, yeah. Production. And I started a little production company, Dolan's Productions, which still have today. And I did a couple of commercials, did documentary, a few things, started working, trying to get that going. I think I kind of knew intuitively, I wouldn't going to get a lot of acting jobs. I mean, I went to a couple of auditions I remember right after the monkeys. And I remember one, I walked in and the producer, whoever said, what are you doing here?

We don't need any drummers. I'm like, okay, thanks. I'm so good. I'm such a good actor. You think of me as a drummer. I played that part really well. But having said all that, you know, yeah, we did become. a group in every sense of the word, if touring and recording.

Yeah. I'm more interested. Because, you know, again, back to, we've been interviewed a lot of times, people tend to focus at the bright lights. I'm in many ways more fascinated with what happens when the bright lights go off, how people, how people react, not to adversity, but a new challenge. Got it. I was used to it, like I say, I had a show that was canceled, kind of knew what to expect.

And frankly, after those three, four years of just intense being in the eye of the hurricane for three, four years, and it was just intense, not just intense, not just filming the show, but then recording at night and then going on the road and touring and all that, I just wanted to kick back and have a beer for a couple of years. And that's essentially what I did. It happened to, by coincidence or not, fall into the same couple of years that I was hanging with my best friend at the time, Harry Nielsen. And when John Lennon came to town for the lost weekend. So I spent a lot of time with them, and I'm told I had a great time. But I was happy to do that. had been working my butt off. You know, the show

ran for two years, but we did 52 episodes or 56 episodes in two years. Nowadays, that's like a six year run. Yeah. For a series today. It was intense and warm me out,

and I wanted to get into producing and directing. So that's what I kind of focused on. Started the little company, did some commercials and stuff. And then I got very lucky. I was asked to buy my friend Harry Nielsen to go to England to star in a musical in the West End that he had written called The Point. Right.

And my wife was English. As it turned out, I just married an English girl. So I could work there. The play was only a little Panama C's season. thing, three months, staying in Harry's flat. And I got lucky. I met an agent, a literary agent, and I said, I'd like to direct and stuff, and what do you have?

And I had some stuff sent over my monkey episode and things. She got me a gig at the BBC, directing drama of all things. And I never looked back. I did that, went on to LWT, all the English television companies. One of those stories, I went over for three months and stayed 15 years, just directing and producing and writing. So you felt over there they were more receptive to your skill set, and it was less about this moment of you. It was interesting. First of all, the monkeys was much more appreciated and respected in many ways in England than in the states.

That's fascinating. Over the decades, I learned that, I realized that, I observed it. And I think I know why. Because here, that idea of kind of wacky sketch comedy, ad lib, emplroft. Was it the goon? Yeah. The Beatles loved it. That was the goon.

The goon show. Yeah, Goon show, sorry. That was radio. Yeah. But that didn't. exist over here, really. In movies it did slightly with like the Marx Brothers, but on television, not

at all, especially the improv, improvisation. And the monkeys came along, and of course, a lot of it was improv. They taught us improv to do the show. But American critics, I think, the kids

got it. The fans got it, obviously. But the TV people and the critics, they didn't know what to make of it. But in England, that was a tradition already. The goodies, then Monty Python, of course, and then all those kinds of shows. So, yeah, I was instantly well received and created my own shows, co-wrote shows, developed shows, very successfully for years. And it was wonderful because shortly after my second or third show, premiered.

I was known as Michael Dolan's, by the way. That's another story. Instead of Mickey. That was because one of the first big shows that I produced and directed and co-created was called Metal Mickey.

By coincidence, it was the name of a robot. And it was your old very classic theme, a out-of-place, weird fantasy, Alf, kind of morke and Mindy. Oh, okay, I get you. And an out-of-place, weird, my favorite Martian,

bewitched in a very domestic, straight situation. Okay, got it. Classic, which I brought to the table. The robot's name was Mickey. Oh, so? Totally coincidental. Yeah. And he had a puppeteer running him, And every time we're on the set rehearsing, somebody would go, oh, Mickey, both of us would turn around.

So my boss said, why don't you just use Michael, which is my middle name? And from then on, I was Michael Dolan's. And after a while, articles in the paper in the Daily Mail and Times or whatever about my new show would say, Michael Dolan, as producer-director, is announcing, rather than... Mickey Monkey X Monkey Mickey Dolan's And that was very refreshing So like you said you stayed 15 years Were you

intrigued by the Sustain of interest in the monkeys Because you know In 76 you did Dolan's joint Dolanus Jones Boyce and Heart Try to say that three times fast and I didn't

you know I have that record and you know obviously Boyce and Heart great writers strongly associated with your your success in the monkey and you know so and I'm not saying it was a nod to where you'd come from and it might have just been

you know this is the relationships that sustain but even that like were you because when you guys did some shows in that I'm not crazy right in what when you did Boyce and Hart Dolan Jones God

God bless you Dolan Jones Boys and Heart Thank you I need your help on that sang him and the guys that wrote them Right

But I mean You must have been doing Some of the monkey stuff And All All monkey stuff Yeah Well I mean the songs

Yeah Oh yeah All the big hits And then Boys and Hart Would do their So somewhere in there It's just

Let's call it The General Mew of the 70s Were you Were you intrigued That people Were still Interested

In the monkeys Not in Not at that point Because had never really gone away. After I went to England for 15 years, and then came back in 86, I was blown away.

I was like, what that? What the heck was that all about? I wish I'd had kept those old shirts some stuff. If you want to sell me, I'd either go. Yeah, right. I was blown away in the 80s. when it all came back up, MTV.

I was coming over to do like an eight-week summer tour with my kids and my wife. At the time, it was supposed to be eight, 12 weeks, amusement parks, and that was it. I was going to go back and start production on a new series in England. It was like a hiatus for me. And, of course, three years later,

we're still on the road, and I'm getting divorced. I mean, it was like one of the... Very rock and roll. Very rock and roll. But now I'm not surprised, because now I look back, I've studied it, I've given talks about it, why it was what it was and what it became, and I've looked into it sort of from outside, because I did get outside during those years in England. No singing, no monkeys, no nothing, no acting.

so I was able to really step outside. So when you saw it full breath... I was able to step outside the bubble and look back. But I've always been able to do that to some degree because my parents were in the business and I was brought up very realistic. How were your parents in the business? I didn't know this part.

Both of them. They were actors and singers. Met doing a play in Hollywood. So I grew up in a show, family. My earliest recollections of going to work with my dad was him getting shot off a horse bleeding, you know, in some action movie. And I'm like four or five years old. That's what daddy did. I thought everybody's father was an actor. So I grew up in a showbiz family, but not your typical kind of Beverly Hills Hollywood

showbiz family. Eyes and teeth, honey. Eyes and teeth. None of that. No stage mom, no acting lessons, no dancing, nothing. Hardcore working. My dad was off the boat from Italy. I'm first generation Italian. My mom was from Texas, came out to be an actress. So down home, we lived in the valley right near here, by the ways where I grew up, born in Tarzan on a chicken ranch. And so not the typical showbiz family, shall always say. Was it because your family was working on, let's call it,

the edges of the opportunities that were there because Hollywood just needed a lot of people to kind of run through the doors? Well, when they got married, my mom didn't work anymore. She was an actress. My father continued to act. That was his job, and he did very well. He had a series called the Count of Monarchisto, was under contract to Howard Hughes, took that money and parlayed it into a restaurant because he wanted to be in the restaurant business on Sunset Strip, which he did until he passed away. Wow. So it was a very successful family and very successful.

He was very successful in the business, in the 50s, 40s and 50s, and then passed away early 60s. But I grew up in a very down-to-earth showbiz family. I come home from Circus Boy filming, and on the weekends had to clean the pool. So I had a pretty down-to-earth upbringing in that sense, as much as you possibly can, being in showbiz. But that also, after the monkeys to come full circle around to what you said, yeah, after the monkeys, I always separate. the person and the persona. I always knew that the fans, the girls,

the industry, the magazines, they were in love with Mickey Dolan's, the drummer on the TV show. Not with me. And I always managed, for the most part, to keep the person and the persona separate. Not all the time, but... How was it?

Is it that you were cast in Circus Boy? I mean, did your parents say... My father's Asian. I was up for a few things, and I remember my mom would say, oh, there's a, you know, there's a pilot or a TV thing. Do you want to go? And I'd go, maybe, maybe not. Never remember being pushed into anything.

In fact, I do remember, and my mom reminded me when the Circus Boy interview audition came up. She said, there's a pilot, and I guess it was my dad's Asian probably that had told her about it. Do you want to go out for an audition for a series? And I was like, oh, Mom, I can't. I got a baseball game. And I almost didn't go. And finally, for some reason, I ended up going, but just kind of looking at my watch,

wanting to get back for the baseball game. But got that. I got that series in the 50s, 55. So you're about 10 or 11 when you're doing the series. Yeah. What studio was that show shot at? The same studio, same stage as the monkeys. Screen gyms television.

That is mind-blowing. Both shows were screen-jim's television, 10 years to the day almost apart. 10 years old when I got Circus Boy, 20 years old. I think I might have gone to the first audition in the same friggin' office. Columbia Pictures, Lott, Gower, sunset, Gower now. Same stage we shot on. That's a ranch right out here at the Hollywood,

at Columbia Ranch. I remember when I went back for the monkeys and I drove through the little gate with the guard, the guard said, hey, Mickey, you got another show. Great, welcome back. Oh, my God. Same guy that had been there 10 years.

years before. I have to ask about bimbo the baby elephant. I don't like to talk about it, Billy. We were so close. There were two little bimboes. Because bimbo one could only work so long. Yeah, right. The first bimbo was a little baby bimbo for the first season.

And then, as you know, then you have a hiatus for six months, but it grew too big. It wasn't cute little bimbo, so they got another. And also male elephants get to a certain age, and they kind of get nuts. They can get a little bit wacky. And when they realize that it doesn't take much to pull that little steak out of the ground, they're taught that they can't pull the steak out of the ground, but they could very easily. Oh, they're taught that.

That's interesting. Would you have a... In your reflection of, you know, not everybody, you know, it's like when I'm in Chicago, the idea of being in a television show as a boy seems so magical. But what was the real experience like? Did you enjoy the work? Was it...

You know what I'm saying? Like, how do you reflect on the work? Again, it was my family business. I followed in my father's footsteps. If he'd have been a banker, I'd have gone to the bank, probably. So it didn't seem unusual to you. Nothing unusual about it. I'd been on a set many times. Okay, that's kind of what I was after.

Yeah, so no, it was, much of it was just falling into place. I knew, already knew a lot of the lingo. It was great fun. I was in a circus, a 10-year-old kid, in a real circus. They bought a circus, an old defunct circus, all the tents and all the equipment. all the equipment, they actually bought an old defunct circus for the sets and all that stuff, and hired a whole bunch of old real circus rousedabouts and guys knew how to put the tin up

and how to drive the wagons and all that stuff. And there were real circus performers. Every week we had jugglers and flamethrowers and high wire acts, and they would teach me how to do little things walk on a wire and on the back of a horse, you know, doing that on the back of a horse and some flying, you know, stuff. And so, yeah, I was in a, and it's for all intents and purpose as I was in a circus. So, you know, you're in your youth and you're entering, you know, puberty, a sense,

in essence, did, how did being recognized strike you? Well, again, kind of took it with a grain of salts. I'd seen my father be recognized. Even then, I guess intuitively knew it was the kid on the TV that they... That's interesting. That's pretty astute for a young boy. I would have gone the other way. I would have been like... Well, also, my parents just brought me up like that.

Okay. They didn't let me get... You know, my dad would spank me when you could spank children. Yeah. If I got out of line... But it was also just being around it, realizing that when I saw my dad as a Mexican general get shot off a horse with mustache and an accent, I knew it wasn't my dad. Yeah, yeah, I get you. So I guess intuitively, I just kind of sense that.

But there wasn't a lot of that back then, certainly not. like the monkeys. No social media, no fan stuff. A 10-year-old kid is not the same as a teenage heartthrob. Did they have you doing personal appearances? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, actually, my first personal appearance

was on a press junket across the United States by train because we were bringing the elephant as part of the press when the show got picked up and was going to air back. then you did press junkets. We had to go by train because of the elephant, and we stopped in Chicago. And

my first appearance was at the pump room. Oh, my God. Is it still there? The pump room? It's still there that's been renamed something, but everyone's still in Chicago calls it the pump room. That was my first thing. Did they bring bimbo in the pump room?

Or in the parking lot, probably, or something like that. Then we went I went to New York, Radio City Music Hall, and they brought the elephant on the stage. My first actual performance, funnily enough, I just remembered, was in Pittsburgh. We stopped in Pittsburgh on the train and went to Kennywood Park, a famous amusement park. And they had a little bandstand, and they'd asked me, because I was playing guitar at the time. My first instrument I played was Spanish guitar, actually, but they said, do you know anything on the guitar? are and you can sing.

And I learned two or three little tunes of the time. Purple People Leader and I'm going to sit right down and write myself a letter and something else. Which doctor was it? It was which doctor.

I told which doctor I was. These are songs from the 50s, Bully, way before your time. Was that song written by like Alan Tussaint or something? Could. Yeah. I don't know. Sorry.

But I learned these three little tunes, and I came out, and they had three little three-piece combo guys on the bandstand. We played the three little songs, and then my elephant came out and did tricks with me and the trainer. So basically my first gig was opening for an elephant. Let's go back to the monkeys reunion, because I wanted to come at it this way, because I wanted to understand, like I said, the edges of your story

because I think it's fascinating. It really helps me understand why you made some of the decisions you made, you know what I mean? Because as a music fan, you're always like, you always pointed the obvious thing, right? So you guys get back together, 86. Was it because this phenomenon was taking off? Because, like, us, we all grew up on Monkeys' reruns, you know?

So I saw those shows 18 times, you know, each show times 18 by the time, you know, that reunion happens in the 80s. Is that being pushed by a record company? You guys both all recognize while something's happening here. Like what were the forces that set it all into motion? I can tell you exactly. I was living in England, directing, producing, writing.

A producer tracked me down. I had not been in touch with any of the other guys at all. Well, Mike I had. Mike had been in touch with because he was also in production in L.A. here. He was doing his own kind of, basically early kind of, Cable videos. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And we had some interaction. I've shot a couple of things in England for his show here. He had called television parts. He kind of did the first MTV before MTV, right? Yeah. Yeah.

So we kept in touch. Had no idea where Peter was. Had no idea where Davey was. And had not been in touch for literally for years. And this producer tracked me down. I was living in Nottingham, sure, directing and producing television shows, and said, do you want to get back together and have a reunion, be eight, 12 weeks in the summer, playing amusement parks and fairs and stuff?

I talked to my wife, my boss at the TV company. Yeah, sure, we're on hayas, eight, 12 weeks, go to the state, have some fun, kids, amusement parks, perfect age for the kids. Little did I know that the producer was aware that MTV was going to play the show. Didn't tell us that. As they don't. Didn't tell me that. That's a good one.

That's a good one. Didn't tell me that. So we get there. not sure how big he thought it might become because it started small, a little amusement parks and six flags, you know, sure, kind of things. But overnight, it just exploded into this huge, huge tour, as big as the 60s, if not bigger, stadiums and things like that. It was enormous. And so it caught, I think, caught it. everybody a little bit by surprise.

So I'm not suggesting there was any lingering animosity, bitterness, anything like that. Like you said, you sort of moved on with your life. Okay, but now you're back in the room with these guys. Had the relationship changed, you guys, just go back to kind of where you left off. Well, and

again, I can only speak for myself. No, no, that's what I'm asking. Yeah. As far as I was concerned, I was, oh, hi, Davey, how you doing? I haven't seen you in a long time. How's I'm going? What's going on? Peter, hey, Mike did not join us, but I had interacted with him. But it was, for me, it was always professional.

I mean, it was always, these were the other cast members of a television show. So I would have felt the same way that I did about the other cast members of circus sports. But having said that, when we did go on the road originally in the 60s, Mike Nesmuth put it really well. He said, that's when Pinocchio became a real little boy. And that's very accurate. Because we did go out there and we played every concert all by ourselves. And we really were just a trio.

We were a power trio. Because Dave you just played tambourine. Nez on a 12 string. Me on drums trying desperately to hear what was going on. Peter on bass and then sometimes keyboard, the trouble part on his right hand and the bass part on the left, trying to play these songs. And it was intense, no monitors, of course. And so that obviously was different than, you know, there's a show that came along many, many years after the monkeys called Glee. Of course, yeah.

I wasn't that familiar with it, but it was a show about a glee club, a fictitious imaginary glee club. But they could all do it. The actors, entertainers, they can all act and sing and dance or whatever they did. That's the closest thing to what the monkeys was. A TV show about this imaginary group that lived in this beach house in Malibu, and we're trying to be the Beatles, not competing with the Beatles on the TV show.

We wanted to be the Beatles. And in that sense, it spoke to all the kids around the world that were trying to do that. On the show, we never made it on the TV show. That's important to remember. The monkeys never were successful on the television show, which does beg the question of how, we could afford a beach house in Malibu, but, you know, it's TV for you.

But that's the interesting story, is there almost monkeys point one and then monkeys 2.1. So you're back, I guess, I'm not belaboring the question, it's more like you're back in a business relationship, and it's like, great, this is working, you know, it's all good if Mike doesn't want to do it. I'm happy to sing these songs, and by the way, when this is over, I'm going to bang back to England and pick up my day job. So that's the general state of mind. I'm curious because it occurred to me, so you're back, were you touring as the Monkeys in 86? Yeah. Okay.

So did you have to get permission for whoever owned the name? Still do. Still. Oh, yeah, I can't use the, well, I can't use the logo without paying for it. The guitar logo? We never could. We had to get permission to this day to say, the monkeys and pay

a nice little chunk. They made a lot of money off of that with them through the years. Thanks for reminding me. Sorry. No, I had to ask. No, we never owned it anymore that William Shatner owns the Star Trek logo.

But there were other members, I will say, of the group that were never comfortable or happy and did get very upset about that. That we couldn't use the name. Did you guys ever try to figure out a way to see if they would sell it to you collectively or have somebody else buy it? We talked to lawyers a number of times.

And, yeah. You know, it went around and around. But nothing ever happened on that. But no, we never got royalties. Residuals from the show. Yeah, that part's crazy. Yeah, because it was pre-sagged in perpetuity. The laws were different and all that, right?

Oh, yeah. So, because I'm circling around the, you know, the 67, 68 part of your life. Because I'm, I really, because when we get there, I kind of want to understand things in a different light, rather than just make assumptions, because you were there and I wasn't. So, circus boys canceled. You're about, what, 14 years old? 12. Oh, 12.

Okay, sorry. It was 10, 11 and 12. Okay. So, just back to school. Yeah. If the phone rings, I'm going to. Parents, smartest thing they ever did, they took me out of the business. They tell me, they told me that the producers had said, would he be interested in doing another show?

I was now a teenager. Sure. I'd outgrown the cute little circus boy thing. Like Bimbo. That's why they told me it kind of went off the air because I was starting to... Well, you were like Bimbo. Yeah, like Bimba. And it was a cabin boy.

It was supposed to be like a rip-off of Treasure Island or something like that. And they said, no. They sent me to a child psychologist. They told me at the time it was an educational counselor, but it was a shrink. And I, because I did Rorschach things. This is after Circus Boy, to find out where my head was at. And I guess he must have said, take this boy out of that immediately. Because they took me out of a silly man.

Because they took me out back into school right here at North Hollywood Junior High. And my roots of my blonde, bleached blonde hair growing out. But smartest thing they ever did, because I didn't go through that period after being a child star. That's where you get messed up. Yeah, I get that. That's kind of what I was curious, yeah. Yeah, well, it's so true. The fame and the fortune and the adulation is great and fun,

especially if your parents have brought you up in a good, solid way. But then all of a sudden, Mommy, why don't they love me anymore? What do you mean my show's canceled? What do you mean? I'm not people, you know, want me and you know. Going through puberty, as you said, is tough enough for anybody, anywhere, anytime, much less suddenly your shows canceled and your has been at 14.

Yeah. Right. So I missed that, thank God. My parents, I just went back to school. Boom. I'm driving down Van Nuys Boulevard trying to pick up girls at 16. And I, that was it. That was kind of.

I think I did a couple of little guest shots in the summer, you know, some day jobs on some of the TV shows when I was 16, 17, 18. But my plan, which you may have heard, was to be an architect. That I did not know. Oh, after high school, I thought I better get serious. My father passed away, which can help, but I thought I better get serious and get a career. Because I knew it was a show business, no guarantee of nothing. Yeah.

And my friend and I, a friend of my and I said, let's be architects. Let's start, you know, home remodeling. Let's go get our degrees. And I went to trade check, L.A. trade check. And I was into it. I was to this day, I'm a builder. and I really was going to be an architect and if I couldn't make it as an architect

I could fall back on showbiz that was the plan That's funny That was the plan It's kind of the reverse of most people Absolutely And that year, if you want to jump ahead Anyway I was in

I'm trying to understand the period between You know child actor out of a gig And then Well high school After high school Father passed away family my mom remarried

moved up north and my friend and I were going to be architects and I was into it I went every day who would have been your architect idol

if I asked you who your favorite singers were you back then who's your who's your architect that you would besides Frank Lloyd Wright I guess

but I don't remember studying much about the history of architecture yet. I was into drafting. I was into the idea that I have this vision and the end. Build drawing and the math and and the geometry because there was no CAD back then. It was pencil and a drafting board and and all that and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And

but then every summer after you know it's in the summer break I would do day jobs. I've got a few day jobs doing shows like Peyton Place, Mr. Novak, in Casey, I remember their show, and usually playing a bad kid, delinquent. For some reason, the way I kind of looked, you know, lanky teenager, my hair all greased back. And then I'd go back to school. And that year, that pilot season of 65, I remember being up for three, at least three or four pilots about music, about kids and music. It was in the air because of rock and roll, because of folk music, and because of the Beatles, of course. And one of the shows was like a folk group, like Peter Paul and Mary. It actually went to pilot that one. I was up.

for that. It didn't sell the pilot, but it did go to pilot. Another one was like a beach boy surfing a band living in a surfing thing. That didn't go to pilot. I was up for that. And another one I remember was like one of those big new Christy menstrual Randy Sparks. Yeah, like eight people in the group. 18 people. Yeah, yeah. A Mighty Wind, that movie. A Mighty Wind. That's pretty funny. That was a great movie. One of those big family, I'm going to build a mountain. Well, like Gene Clark of the Birds

came out of that, and the guy who did Barry McGuire. Yeah, yeah. Came out of that. Because it was kind of a system. They would tour. They just kept replacing them with young people. Yeah.

So there was a show about a group like that that didn't pilot. And then there was the monkeys. And I remember thinking at the time when I went for the monkey first, audition, which you're just reading some lines. Same studio I went for Circus Boy. So amazing.

I remember thinking, this is different. There is something a little bit different, because usually they were producers in suits with smoke on a cigar. Yeah. We want to do a show that kids alike. I see. But Bob and Bert, Bob Rayfuss and Bert Schneider,

the producers of the monkeys, weren't much older than I was. The one kid kid, his father was the president of the... Birch Snyder's father was the head of Columbia Pictures. Yeah. Yeah. So he had a... Nepo kid. Yeah, but it works.

Of course, yeah. And Bob Ravelson, of course, was a brilliant creator, writer. Anyway, they weren't much older, and I could sense that. And they were Beatle fans. So it was slightly different. So I went for the audition. That was it. I went back to school. My agent said, you got a callback. Oh, cool. Went back three or four callbacks. The audition process was extensive, much more than a regular TV series. You'd go and read some lines, maybe do a screen test, and that's it. You got it or not. You had to go back. There was improv. There was interviews. There was singing.

There was playing. I played my audition piece was Johnny Be Good on the guitar, Chuck Berry. Then there were scenes, scene study on a set with cameras and the whole nine yards. So it was quite extensive, the audition process. But I did it, went back to school, architecture, and then my agent said, you got the pilot. And I'm like, oh, cool. didn't even think that much about it because I knew 9 out of 10 pilots don't even sell you know so I went and did the pilot went back to school because I knew the chances were

it wasn't going to sell is it true that the pilot like they didn't really have and have you guys clothes figured out you're kind of wearing your own clothes yeah yeah I think I read the pilot did very poorly or something and somebody re-ed it initially it yeah yeah the story and I wasn't privy to all this because I wasn't a producer. But I vaguely remember stuff. Yeah, it was not our clothes, but it was

clothes from wardrobe, from Columbia Pictures wardrobe, but hippie stuff that they cobbled together, and it looked pretty stupid a lot of the stuff. There was no Monkey Mobile or anything like that. Yeah, so it was just kind of regular clothes, hippie clothes.

So we did the pilot and what I heard, even at the time, originally there was a manager of us and he was like the father knows best your uncle's favorite father uncle he was the adult and he was the one that would give us the advice and uncle so-and-so-way I remember his name what do we do about well boys here's what you do And typical father knows best kind of thing.

They took him out. Bob Ravelson, in his wisdom, took the manager out completely, and put in the improv interviews that we'd done as part of the audition process gave each of us an identity. And it tested much, much better. And the rest is hysterectomy. I love the Boys and Heart part of this story. So we can kind of gloss over how we get to Boys and Heart. Because I read Bobby Hart's book, which talks extensively about that.

But the short version that I'm, this is all based on my memory, is they originally gave it to Kershner, Don Kershner, that he was going to be the music kind of supervisor. Do you remember working with Kershner first on music? music stuff? No, I remember very little about Donnie Kershner because he was in New York, out of New York, and he very seldom. I don't remember him coming around. But you know the backstory on how Boyce and Heart end up being very involved? No. I've heard bits and stuff from... So let me give you what I remember and tell me if you... Yeah, go ahead. If you don't mind, I mean... No, please. Because I really... I was not privy. you know, to much of that at all.

Because the reason we're here is, I love what you guys did musically. I think that's, there's an enduring legacy there. That's, for me, aged well over time in a way that I never could have imagined. And I think there's, like all great things, it has a weird circumstantial set of aspects to it. So the story goes that they went to Kersner

because he was the guy at the time or whatever. And they had started, started whatever was going on musically, maybe it was the younger guy in the equation, the Rayfelson, right? They may have the names, right? Yeah. They just could tell it wasn't going to work. It felt like inauthentic. And Boyce and Heart, when there were rumors that there was going to be a show, they knew those people. So they wrote the monkeys theme and a couple songs, and then the whole thing stalled. So in the beginning, they thought it was their gig.

So nine months goes by, and the phone stops ringing, and I think, well, that ain't going to happen. Well, whatever happened went on early with Kershner, they decided it wasn't going to work. So then they went back to Boisenhart and thought, well, this is the more authentic voice that we're looking for. We want the monkey's music to feel authentic. But there was somebody in the process in the chain that wasn't buying it because Kershner was a sure bet, and these were just a couple young hippies who had a couple minor hits. So they did this thing where, and this is Bobby Hart's story in the book, the studio brass came over, and they had that band, The Candy Store Profits. And whatever Bobby Hart or Tommy Boy said, said, just give us a half hour and we'll prove it to you.

So the studio brass came in and listened to them play like four or five songs, including the monkey's theme. and then they were like, okay, that's the vibe that we're looking for. So they kind of basically winked their way and got the gig. So for the first year, before you guys decided to kind of make it more about your own contribution, that's why they were in the driver's seat because it kind of fell back to them because the politics with Kirshner. That sounds very accurate from what I've heard. Yeah.

But a lot of what you just described was done in. said before I was even cast. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. I want to know if you had this before. Yeah. I was still going to school, taking architecture, because they were doing this for the pilot.

Right, I get you. And so they would have been doing this behind the scenes when I was auditioning. As an actor, yeah. Yeah, as an actor-singer. Yeah, I get you. But it was very clear that they did not just

want actors that they were going to dub in their voices later like old Hollywood movies. They wanted the real thing. And that is part of what you said. They wanted something more authentic. They wouldn't have bothered to have us

play and sing as part of the audition process. You had to. You had to be able to play and sing to get through the audition. So they clearly had in mind something more than an old Hollywood you know but well not even old Hollywood even to this day

Sean Appin did not play guitar in the Django Reinhardt yeah sure but nobody everybody knows that and doesn't care but on television in that day and time people took the rock and roll

music very seriously and some still do you know and all of a sudden these four guys come along and well you know the story but the producers Bob and Bert we're trying to keep it real

sure as you could on television at the time so the first time you go in the studio to record monkey songs have you got the gig or is a part of the pilot part do you remember that part? It's part of the pilot okay so

Who are you in the studio? Tommy and Bobby. Okay. Did you get on with them right away? Oh, yeah, instantly, because they were our age. Did you feel like a sense of ownership? Like, oh, this is kind of cool. Yeah, right from the get-go, like I mentioned before, I kind of got a feeling this is different.

This ain't old Hollywood. This ain't the guy with a cigar. These are people of my own age. These are people on the streets. I bump into them on Sunset Bull, at Ben Franks and the whiskey, the same people. When I went to my first audition with Bob and Bert, they were the producers, I walked into the waiting room,

and there are these two guys sitting there in jeans and t-shirts with coffee cups and bits of pizza. I thought they were there for the audition. That was Bob and Bert, the producers. And so it was right from the get-go. Yeah. There was something different about it. I read something years ago, so help me clarify this,

because I read somewhere that you did a lot of your vocals in New York. Were they recording out here and you're recording vocals in New York? No, vice versa. Okay. Recording New York and here and vocals here. Okay. Because I would do vocals after filming the television show for 10 hours a day. So you're doing this at night?

into the studio at night and do sometimes two lead vocals in one night because they needed so much material. Yeah, there was a lot of material. They wanted a new song or two every week. That's crazy if you really think about it, right? So when you'd come in, they would already recorded the song and there'd be guide vocals. And I think they said they did a lot of the background vocals, voice and heart. They did some background early on especially. Yeah, I guess I'm...

The guide vocals. vocals, no, the guide vocals would have been on the acetates, like if it was a Carol King tune, it would be her singing so I could learn the song. So you'd learn the song, then come in here their version and then do your interpretation. Is that, am I getting that right? I don't remember. I'm just, I'm such a studio nerd. I'm just curious because obviously recording back then was very different than it is. It is very different. I don't remember because it wasn't like today where you can comp all the tracks over, you know, you can't. So I'm saying like...

I would learn the song off of an acetate. So they would have sent you a demo of the monkey's theme and then you go in to sing it because you've learned it. Yeah. Okay. Or one of their tunes or Clarksill or Carol King song. But it was just piano. Ah, okay. Oh, not a demo.

No. They wouldn't have made a demo. It would have been just her playing some song in the keyboard on a piano or Tommy or Bobby playing a guitar. Would they have asked you what key you want to sing in before? Yes. Okay. They will, I would have routineed it with Carol in person or Tommy or Bobby in person somewhere. Yeah.

So they had at least a sense and they gave them a chance to tweak the song a little bit after they heard you sing it. Well, the key, for starters. Yeah. But then very shortly, they learned my voice, so they didn't even have to ask. They just knew this key would work. And then I just remember going in and having routine the song, learned it, just go in and start recording vocals. With sheet music, I remember.

remember sometimes not, maybe I knew the, already knew the song real well. Well, you recorded so much, I get it. It's kind of a bit blurry, right? Jeez, oh, God. And back then, you know, a vocal session was, like, an hour, maybe less, right? Depending on how much you got.

Two lead vocals and nights sometimes. Yeah. And sometimes I hear it when I listen to the old stuff. Oh, God, I wish I could have done that one again. So I don't want to belabor it, because it's part of the monkey's mythology, but at some point you got it. are like we want to have more of a hand in the making well Mike Nesmuth did yeah so when okay so did you hear about this from Mike directly or did it was

it sort of in the air like let's call it this little bit of a rebellion about how this was gonna know it was all Mike how did you feel about it did you feel like this isn't really worth getting that into or I I think by that time there was such a camaraderie between us that I would have bought into what whatever he wanted. And I was a singer, and I was a musician. So the thought of actually getting in there and playing, I think probably when we went on the road and played everything

and did whole shows by ourselves. Did you guys ever play gigs where you had like the backup band? You know what I mean? No, never. Okay, that's trying to understand the dynamic. Well, what we did was this. It was very clever. what the producers, and David Winters, who staged the show, came up with.

It was actually very clever. We had an opening act, The Sundowners, or another band, that would come out and do 20 minutes or whatever of cover tunes, something like that. Then we would come out, just the four of us, drums, guitar, bass, do, I don't know, maybe half hour. And then three of us would leave. Peter stayed on stage with his banjo because he was a banjo and a pretty damn good banjo player,

flailing banjo guy from New York. Clawhammer. Yeah. And he did Cripple Creek. Just by himself, Cripple Creek. Sure. And then the backup. band would come out.

And Nez came out and fronted now the backup band as a solo singer doing his roots, which was Can't Judge Book by looking at his cover. Bo Diddley. He picked something and he

played four Maracas at the same time. Can't Judge Book by looking at it. That's his roots from Texas. Yeah. Peter, the banjo thing from New York. Then Davy came out, again, with the backup band, just him, in like a tux.

And he did his roots, Broadway. He did, I'm going to build a mountain, Tony Newley. Sure. Going to build a mountain. And then same band, Davy left. I came out and did James Brown. Yes. My roots, which I loved.

What James Brown said. It was, I got a woman. Okay. I got a woman. Wait, over time. I'm doing all the dancing and flying around, and they'd come out and put a cape on me. And so that was showing each of us as our individual personalities, which is really smart. And then the backup band went off.

We came back on and finished the show. Oh, sounds fun. When you had that level of pandemonium, I've heard some of the live recordings from those times. Sounds like. It's just terrible. But you also got no monitors. It does sound exciting. And you've said, you know, I saw that they were reacting off of what they saw on TV.

But when you've got 8,000 young people screaming like a jet engine, did that go to your head? How could it not? I mean, of course, you know. Especially by then when I knew it was me. Okay. Now this was for real. Right. I wasn't faking it. You know, when they were yelling and screaming at the kid on the character on the television screen,

that was me as an actor playing the part of a wacky drummer. But when I got on stage, and I'd been on stage before, before the monkeys, I'd had cover bands where I hadn't played drums, but I sang and played little guitar in clubs and clubs and stuff. like that. So when I was out there now playing and singing these songs and they were screaming, yeah, now I was like, yeah, I can do this. I am doing this. We are doing this. And if you listen to those live recordings, there was never a live album ever recorded, but some sound check kind of tapes that managed to get reproduced. And they literally, I think, were done. with a mic just stuck up in the air to get a sense of the sound.

But we weren't that bad, you know, having only rehearsed for maybe six months and never played together before, we weren't that bad. It was like a very early garage band stuff. You guys sound like a credible garage band. No, but, you know, the standard of playing then wasn't like it is now, where people on YouTube watching, you know, your fingers. Yeah, right. So just to go one more step on the studio side of the...

Now you guys are like, okay, we're going to make a record. Who's running that? Like once you wrestle away, whatever control needs to be wrestled. We're going to do it. Now we're going to go in the studio. Yeah. Who's... Was it a...

Driving the train? Yeah, is it a democracy? Nesmith. Always Nesmuth. You were cool with getting out of the way on that or... Didn't want to ever be in the way. I just... I was like, where do I go?

Where do I stand? Where do I sing? Yeah, I was the lead singer essentially for most of the stuff. Yeah. And I was quite happy. He was a good producer. And he got a producer, Chip Douglas also. And, no, I was quite happy, you know.

He talked me into writing stuff. I wouldn't have been writing stuff if it wasn't for Nesmith. He said, you got to write some songs. Well, why? Because that's where all the money is. I wish I'd have paid more attention. Got me writing songs. Encouraged my playing. And, you know, no, he was totally all nests.

So, as I'm concerned. A couple more things. And thank you for indulging me. Why did the show, because the show only literally ran from 67 to the 68, and that's it. So like you said, like 56 episodes. What was your, did the show get canceled because the ratings went down or what was the circumstance in your... I couldn't tell you about that because I wasn't privy to that.

First of all, like I said before, remember that today I would have run five years or six years now. Sure. And it beat everybody up pretty bad. I think it just, you know, one of those things, why did Faulty Towers only run 13th? I remember I was not that upset when they said the show has been canceled. Because of exhaustion or you felt it had been explored? I think we all felt that we'd kind of been there, done that. By the end of the second season, we were jumping the shark a few times, I think,

and before that term even existed. You know what you mean, yeah. We say it wrestling. We were all kind of, we'd been on the road. We'd played, you know, concerts all over the world. We were hanging with the Beatles, you know, and going to sessions. And I think that the general feeling was kind of been there, done that. I do remember us talking about what would we do if we wanted to do another year, another serial.

And we didn't want to do the same series. I remember not wanting to do the same thing. And I remember talking and I don't remember who or when. Well, why don't we do something where it's more like a variety show, where it's more like, you know, we have sketches and we have music and we have this and that. And then a year later, Laugh-in came along. And then there were lots of shows like that after.

Not that they took any of stuff from us. It was in the air. But you guys in that formula or, that would be interesting. That, well, and we did a special, which was supposed to be a little bit like that, but a lot of reasons, production reasons. It didn't come out that great. But that's what I remember us talking about. But I think maybe what happened is NBC said, no, either you do another series like this or you don't do anything at all or something like that.

But I was not privy to any of that information going on up in the top floors of NBC or RCA or SCA. I'm sure somebody regrets that you guys don't have. There isn't more in the can because it's shocking that really, you know, I had to look twice to, make sure my eyes, my aging eyes, were reading this correctly, which is that the show literally started, I mean, for you it would have been longer because of all the setup and the auditioning. But in terms of actual air dates, the first air date is like... Two years. Less than... You know what I mean?

That's crazy. Two seasons back then. But it's crazy to think that something that, I mean, here we are talking about it, 50 plus years later. No, it obviously struck a chord. I mean, it's, in the way I look at it, Billy, is that the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts with something like the monkeys or something like Star Trek or something like a great movie. Sure. Something like smashing pumpkins. You can't take it apart and examine it like the story of try to see how the watch works so you take it all apart.

Don't work anymore. No more. You can't do that. You can't say, oh, well, Star Trek was just William Shatner. Yeah. His act. Or, no, it was just the writing of, it was the special effects. No, it was Leonard Neimo's ears.

That was what. It doesn't work like that in our business. Yeah. The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. You don't know why. There's no formula. If there were, there'd never be a flop. Yeah.

It would always be right there. something happens you get these people this people this idea that music this guy this who knows sure and that's what happened uh with the monkeys like it does with you know with other things too but you can't really take it apart yeah so kind of bring this to a close so i don't know if you've seen this book i can't remember the title with but a guy wrote this book about basically breaking down the movie head into a kind of a watershed cultural moment. Have you seen this book? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. No. Oh, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's kind of a long essay. But the guy sees head this rare moment where you guys had been this through this insane cultural moment and somehow in your

prescience or the willingness to let you guys do whatever you want you create this kind of meditake on what you've just been through, you know, and like, it's a rare moment where it's like you stop and go, let's talk about what just happened, and you almost leave breadcrumbs for future generations to peer back through what you guys have been through. Whoa. It's interesting, and it talks about, you know,

it's the scene, I don't remember who was in the black box and, you know, not to get too discursive on head as a movie, but I thought it was an interesting take. that that and I went back and watched the movie from the perspective of the guy who wrote the book so I read the whole book and I watched the movie and from the standpoint that he laid it into which was like look there's a lot more here than meets the eye like a dolly painting or something it really struck me that there was this um greater mind at work between the four of you and whoever was making the movie to kind of it used to say like a send-up of the monkey's mythology but in in You didn't do it 10 years later. You did it as the whole thing was kind of winding down. Did you feel that at the time? Yeah.

It's a bit of a long story how that all happened. I mean, I'll be glad to get into it. You can stop me when it gets boring. When it was decided we were going to do a movie, I remember it being suggested we do not do a 90-minute monkey episode, which is what everybody was expecting. All the fans, certainly, were expecting a 90-minute version of a monkey episode. Davy falls in love with a girl, her uncle's a crook, and we run around the world and have adventures and play music and songs and stuff.

But I do remember it being suggested, let's do something different. Bob Rafeelson brought this guy on the set one day when we were still filming, I think. guy named Jack Nicholson. He was a B-movie actor, wanted to be a writer, wanted to get into stuff. Well, we all fell in love, I fell in love with him, like, instantly.

He had the funniest, most charismatic, incredible character. Just, you couldn't help. Whatever happened to him, though. You couldn't help but just love this guy. So he started hanging out, and Bob said, Jack's going to write the movie.

with me or together or by himself, whatever. And he started hanging out with all of us. I remember he came over to my house. We went out, we messed around, we hung out, you know, seemed like for a long time. And then we went up to Ohio, California, the four of us and Bob and Bert and Jack, and a couple of roadies, I think. And we sat around all weekend at the Ohio Valley Inn and, spa and I and it was around a little tape recorder on the floor and I got film 16 millimeter film

of us all talking about this movie what we're going to do what we wanted to do what we didn't want to do what would be funny cool weird you know and Jack went away and in his brilliance with him and Bob Ravelson wrote this incredible movie that looking back didn't set all those things that well I've looked back and studied it a little bit myself and also having had been there the way I look at it personally is that even at the time I don't know that they knew what they were doing

necessarily it was not only a deconstruction of the monkeys and that big monkey thing that you mentioned and happened. Not only was it a deconstruction and looking back at that, if you think about who these guys were, Bob Rapleson went on to be an incredible director, Jack Nicholson, Peter Fonda was in it, Dennis Hopper was there. They used the money from the monkeys to make Easy Rider. There's a book called Easy Rider Raging Bull, which I did an interview for, about that era.

Bob and Bert, Scorsese, Dennis Hopper, Peter Fonda, Jack Nicholson, were the new bucks in town, and they essentially single-handedly created the Hollywood independent film industry. It did not exist before Easy Rider, before those five. films. Sure. The head was the first of that deconstruction, not just of the monkeys, but a deconstruction of the old Hollywood system. You couldn't get a film made back then unless you were one of the big seven. You know, Billy Jack tried, four walling, and there were attempts, but you really couldn't get a look in unless you were one of the big seven. There's a scene in the movie. How long ago did you see it? Maybe like a year, a year and a half a good? Okay, you remember there's a scene where Mike and I are Calvary officers and were being shot at by Indians with arrows. Terry Gar's first, one of her first little performances.

God bless her. She's sitting there bleeding with an arrow like this, and, you know, and Mike and I are looking at the Indians, and Mike says it's too quiet. All these old Hollywood cliches. A lot of the movie, if you remember, was Hollywood cliches from old Hollywood movies. Yeah. And I'm like, then, what are we gonna do? And Max is too quiet, and the Indians are,

whoo, who, who, who, who, and they're shooting. And I stand up, and I get hit like with four or five fake special effects arrows. And I'm like, geez, Bob, I've had it, I'm fed up, and I break off all the fake arrows. I can't do this anymore. Or all these fake arrows and come on lady, get up. You're not dying. You're just, it just make up. I'm fed up.

And I turn around and I walk back through the big psych that was mountains and sky. And I tear a hole through it and I burst through the psych. That to me was what the movie was about. bursting through the old Hollywood and I walk out into the cafeteria or do something like that that's what I think the movie was about to me certainly and I think that that

is the underlying kind of thing the deconstruction of old Hollywood the old Hollywood studio system and it's what they did they did that they single-handedly created the independent Hollywood industry can I tell you a related story if you don't mind? Sure. So in 1998, we're in the studios for Sheperton in England,

you know, famous studios, and we're shooting what became an $800,000 music video. I tried to get this concept that I had in mind off the ground and I couldn't find anybody and eventually you settled on these guys from England. But the budget came in at $800,000, but we were so big at the time, they green lit it remarkably. The quick version, of the concept was, I think we build somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 sets. So think of it like a big U, or you, and then we would move through the different sets like this, and the camera would just follow us along. So there was like a Roman bath set, a Vampire's Lair.

God, that sounds familiar. What was the song? Ava Doors in the name of the song. Yeah, that sounds familiar. Oh, sorry, go on. No, but here's what you triggered in my memory. And I think this is a beautiful way to wrap it up. Because you're right about when you walk through that set.

But at other times, you've got to, like I had to walk through that set. But here's my version of it. So they had this idea, and it was a technique that people were using at the time, which was if they sped and slowed up the music, you would get like you were moving in slow motion or you would get like you were hyperactive. but in order to do it at the time, they'd have to speed the track up and then the camera would go with it, and that if they slowed the track down. Well, we had over 100 extras on set all in costume. Okay?

As you know, like this type of thing, the call time was 8 a.m. for all the extras. By maybe 5 p.m., the clock's running out. We haven't shot a single take. So the natives are growing restless, right? And you can see people getting really nervous, you know, over time. So we did a, I think we did like a first take. And, you know, we thought we were going to shoot ten of these. And then, but my whole thing was it was going to be a one taker.

So everything had to ask you that. It was one continuous take. Yes. This was my idea, but translated through their vision. And what made it not work was the speeding up and slowing down. That would cause the technical delay. So by the time we shot the first take, the people in the stands around, it was kind of a Coliseum feel, were grousing, audibly showing displeasure,

going out of character on screen. But in that, something happened where they reached a point with the camera where I can't remember what it was. I think it was an accident, and maybe because they thought it was a test take. The camera operator swung the camera around, and you saw the entire set just for one moment. So we watched the test take, and they're like, we got seven more minutes. And I'm like, but I got to see this at least one time to at least tweak it so we have a chance to get the video. We're paying $800,000 for. So they freaked out that the camera operator in some reason had swung the camera. saw the entire set, the train tracks, the crew with the coffee. And they started, and I said,

no, no, leave it. So now with the clock running, they're arguing with me, no, you can't have this break the fourth wall moment in your video. And I said, it's my video, and I think it's perfect, because it shows the complete artifice of this entire exercise. Great. So we only had time for one more take. Like, okay, by that point, I literally got on a microphone and I begged this, not an audience, 100 extras,

please, we have one more take. Behave yourselves. You're embarrassing yourselves. And as a result of the day and the way they've been treated and they didn't get enough sandwiches, there were people literally turning their backs to the camera as the camera was coming by. Right?

So you have to look very carefully for it. You get the fourth wall reveal, which is to me is my favorite moment of the whole video. I'm not even in it, but you get that one moment. And then the camera swings around. And when we get to the kind of the back end of the continuous sets, there's like the Roman scene, and there's people with their backs to me,

and there's people audibly tell me, fuck you as the takes going by. So I turn my back, and I'm flipping off the crowd. Like, go fuck yourself. the last takes happening, and that's the take. Oh, my God. You don't see me do it. You just see me turn and be like, yeah.

Great story. And that's it. That's the take. Well, we'll be right back with Billy Corgan. After these words. The Mickey and Billy Show. The Mickey and Billy Show. Thank you, Mickey.

That was great.