The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Pat Benatar & Neil Giraldo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

In this candid conversation Billy Corgan sits down with Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo who lay bare the real stories behind 45 years of music, marriage, and refusing to play by anyone else’s rules. They reflect on their Roman Catholic upbringings—incense, confessions, and all—and how that shaped them as restless creatives unwilling to settle. From the powerful genesis of “Hell Is for Children” to the revelation that struck when Pat first heard Neil’s guitar, they describe forging a distinct rock identity with no safety net.  They also get frank about living out of a Winnebago with a newborn in tow, the music industry’s disinterest in motherhood, and the intimate give-and-take that still sparks their writing sessions today. Whether it’s a new children’s book on grandparents, reimagining a classic in the studio, or standing up to label pressure in the ’80s, Pat and Neil share how trust, mutual respect, and a shared sense of purpose sustain them—onstage, offstage, and everywhere in between.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was really. Oh, no. Oh, good. Thank you for it. Yeah. There was no fucking handbook for this, okay? They didn't care. All they knew is it was time to go back in the studio.

It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records. I had conquered all that boys' clip and everything else. But this next part, oh, no. This is something else all together. So, correct me if I'm wrong, are we all Roman Catholics? Yes. Raised, yes.

Raised, yes. Latin masses? Yes. Yes. Polish and Latin. A lot of incense. Jesus on the cross. On the cross.

Stations of the cross. Oh, yeah, confession. So I feel like we have some kindred understanding. We're both Rust Belt Midwesterns. That's correct. In the pew, I had my mother to the lap, my sister, the end my mother, myself, my father, my father's tone deaf, my mother could sing. Oh, so you got that. And I would be having vertigo when the incense, frankincense would go on,

and I'd be going, oh my God, and I, you know, one pitch and no pitch. That was pretty weird. But you went to Catholic school. I sure did. Our kids did too. I did not. I went to public school. Yes. I just, I just, I saw that note on you guys. And I thought, okay, we got to start here because it sort of defines, I think, Everything that we get into. In Midwest and Roman Catholic. It might have something. It makes sense. Rebellion or...

Yes. I don't really. Are you close to the same age as we are? I'm 57. Oh. No, we're... Okay, so we're a lot older than you. Well, we'll get to how I know both of you.

I was just going to ask you about, like, did you go to church and the... I didn't go to Catholic school. No, but you went to church? I'm assuming. My stepmother was a Roman Catholic. It was cool about the Roman Catholic church that we went to. This would have been about, like, 73, 74,

they realized that they weren't getting young parishioners. So they took kind of a side building and they set up like the young cool priest. Correct. And they started doing like day by day. Yeah, we did that, yeah. And I remember thinking this is so cool because now, and the priest would make jokes about the Super Bowl.

Correct. That's right. Like, wow, a priest is talking about the Super Bowl. He's like giving a prediction on the game. Yep. So you felt like it was the cool priest. We had the same thing? Absolutely. Really? I remember my mother saying, yeah, well, All of a sudden, you had it gets our player on stage, and they would be, you know, the songs would change, and my mother never liked it. Sure. It came later. I haven't went our kids, but not me. No, no, it happened when I was like 15 or something, 14. Day by day, that was the big one. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Actually, let's start here, because I want to talk about your children's book. Tell me. Yeah.

Because I want to write a children's book, so I'm jealous. Oh, you should. It's so fun. What is grandparents book? Okay. So, yeah, we didn't do the children. We did grandchildren. Because as you will find out, if you have grandchildren, everything they say about them is true. Okay.

Can you give me an example? I give an example. When your children are born, you're having a great time. You love your children. And you think it can never get any better. But then grandbabies come. You go, how did this happen? My sister told me about it.

I couldn't believe it. And when we had them, I went, she was right. Is it the notion that you get to kind of like parachute in and parachute out. But there's this connection of love that's so powerful. You have this other thing with them. They're not your physical, like you didn't have them. They love you so much.

It's like ridiculous. And you're like you're their favorite person on earth and it's, they're never mad at you. Like your kids get mad at you and stuff, but not your grandchildren. That's the best. That's my grandparents were like my rock in my turbillian. So we wrote a book.

It's called my grandma and grandpa rock. So are you the, guys the characters? So I don't know anything about the context of the book. Yes. Yes. We begin, we're the characters and then we explain all the diversity, all the different grandmas and grandpas of what their names are and what they do for a living

and all that stuff. The concept is that our scorn children are saying my grandma and grandpa rock. But we're saying in the book that we bet your grandmas and grandpa's rock too. And then we show all the different ways that other people that are grandparents

rock. So whose idea was it? We're just came to us who liked the idea and said, sure. Here's a question for you. What do your children call you? Daddy. Daddy? Yeah.

We're Papa because Italians are still in. Right, right. So even the grandbabies call me Papa, not Grandma. A grandpa. Is she known of them? No. No. She didn't do anything.

She didn't do anything like that. But when she was reading the book, the oldest one, she was looking, she goes, she's reading Joe, and Grandpa, she goes, you know, she should be Papa. Yeah. So that's kind of cool. It's fun. So, okay, I want to start with you.

Bank teller? Is that? Mm-hmm. So you were banked, is it Virginia, right? Your bank teller? Yeah, when I was, I got married the first time, really young. Yeah. Because I, I just, you as a bank teller, I just, it seems like such a good way to start.

That's a good thing. Well, it was great being in the South because, you know, I was wearing a leopard dress. And, you know, we had to wear a dress. around 70. Yeah, like 70. No, early. Two. Two.

So I was like 20 years old. I'm wearing a leopard dress and we had to wear dresses and I was really mad because, you know, I'm from New York and there's no such thing as that dress code. I mean, they're ridiculous. So we had to wear a dress and it used to make me crazy because the staircase that went up to the break room was a floating staircase, an open staircase. And the lone officers who were all men set underneath it. So I didn't want to wear a dress. So when they told me I had to wear a dress, I wore a leopard dress. And so people would come to my window in South Carolina,

because that was the first place. I just have a little accent thorough here. And they would say to me, Benita, that's not a local name. And I go, no, I'm from New York. And they go, I'll go to the next window. Really? Yeah. So that was that.

But then, you know, when I went to Virginia, they were much more liberal, and it was, you know, it was fun. Right. It was a way to make money. The reason I want to start there is because this is, when you did, is what your first recording day gig? Yes, because when I was in Virginia, I met, I started singing with a, besides working at the bank and going to VCU, I also was in this bar band and we were doing, you know, cover songs,

and the guy who was the piano player for that band also wrote songs, and that was one of the first songs. I was surprised because it has a little bit of like a Curtis Mayfield, Beano Warwick. They were like, you know, they were like a bar, like. Sort of on the laundry side. Yeah, like that. But did you have professional aspirations at that? point or it was just kind of a...

No, it was like I sang. You know, I always sang my whole life and I was working and going to school and I thought, well, this will be fun. Because my father was kind of a club bar musician. So I remember those times pretty well. And a lot of people were playing and a lot of people didn't have professional aspirations. There seemed to be a lot of bands. I mean, I did when I was, you know, the plan when I was growing up in school was to go to

Juilliard. And then that was the whole thing. I was being prepared to do that. And then my boyfriend at the time got drafted, and I was afraid he was going to die in Vietnam, which he didn't. And I married him. But anyway, but that's why I didn't do. I dropped all the professional aspirations because then I decided to go to school

and be a schoolteacher and whatever. Okay, so you're over here, bang teller, little side hustle with music, but no real like I'm going to be a starvon. No, not until I did that bar band thing. And then I realized how much I really love singing. And then I just decided one day to quit that bar band and go back to New York. And that's what I did. But he started really young.

Right. Because you're, like, were you in Cleveland or in New York? Because I get a little confused on that. When did you go to New York? I went to New York when I joined Rick Derringer's band. Okay. So let me go early because I, so is this in Cleveland like you're, you know, like a lot of kids that a generation, you listen to the kinks, the who and Yarberg?

Yeah. And so did you want to be a rock star? It was like... Well, Sicilian family, right? Growing up Italian-Cicilian, and my father wanted me to play guitar so I could do duets with my sister who played accordion so we can do the songs

of the old country, you know? This was the idea. I grew up in this world, too. So you know what's going on. That's my laughing. You understand. It was supposed to be... Trust me, I had the speech one day.

You don't want to play guitar. You want to play accordion. Yeah. I eventually did start playing accordion, too, Because there was money there. I didn't like, my sister, I didn't care for how she played. So I got a little weird. I'm a little weird.

Sorry about that. Yeah, she knows about that. So, but that was the idea. After church on Sundays for your family, you were going to do these duets. I was six years old when I started playing guitar. My uncle, Timmy, was my mentor. He's only four years old in me.

So he came, moved in because my grandpa passed away early. He was having, it's like having an older brother. So that was super cool. Wild older brother. Wild older brother. brother. Right. So, but it's like a lot of those guys, like back in the day, you're just playing with band, scene bands,

scene bands, high school dances, like, what was your kind of... Well, well, a little different, a little different, because I never cared for contemporary pop music. I wanted... I did, but I wanted it to be different. I didn't want to do cover songs. I wanted to do original songs,

even when I was very young, 12. What I used to do, too, which is very weird, and I think back on it, you know how it applies to what you do as well. When you grow up, you filter in all these inspirational people, right? And you don't always know them. Maybe you'd ever see them listen to the records and you're playing along and you don't know what they look like

or anything. And stuff goes in, right? And then as time goes, you don't forget about it, but it shows up and you're playing, singing, writing, right? So what I would do is I would get a record, my uncle Timmy would buy me a record, I'd get a record, I'd listen to the record, and I'd listen to all the songs, back to back,

and I'd start writing songs at an early age. Because I... So what age was that at being? About 12. That's pretty early to start writing songs. Yeah, 12.30, the songs probably were terrible. But the idea was I was so inspired by the record in all the songs, I'd say, hmm, I'll start writing it.

Instead of playing the parts on the record. And that's how I began that. And that's why I, as a musician, I use instruments as tools. My main goal is to make great songs, great records. So that's how I always thought. and I still think to this day. So it's all about that to me. So I started really young.

I don't know if there's a song in your life span when you were a kid that you heard to kind of define where you were going to go. When I heard Elvis Presley Heartbreak Hotel because we're like 12 years older. So when I heard that on the hi-fi system my parents had and I could hear the spatialness of the song. I was really young, but I can hear the richness of the voice

and the reverb and the openness of the song. Wasn't it made like at RCA in New York or something? When Elvis had left Sun. Yeah, I don't remember. In the whole story. Yeah. Well, Sam Phillips sold Elvis's contract to RCA. Correct.

For $35,000. Yeah, I know. It was ridiculous. But that's the first time Elvis is in a real studio. It was amazing. And the bass on that record. Richness. Like, you can tell it's stand-up bass.

Everything. But the spatialness, there's a piano. Do you remember who wrote that song? Is it about Doc Thomas? He has, no, he has credit for writing it. Oh, but there's, I think there's two other people that wrote it. Is it Lieber Stoller maybe? No.

Mm-mm. It's not who you think. You're right, it's like kind of this, they're almost kind of an obscure writing. I think it was a, yeah, a guy and a girl. Yeah. And I don't know if they. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was exactly what they did. Because I was reading about this recently, that's why I, yeah.

But it was so thunderous, the whole feel of that. And right then I kind of went, that's what I hear everything. Was it that had kind of a cinematic aspect to it, too? Well, that's funny. You mentioned that thing, because a lot of times, in arranging and producing, I hear stuff in a cinematic form, like an architectural form.

You know, where you have the vocal here and you have the reverb and the snare and all these instruments. But I see that. That's interesting. That's how I don't do colors. I don't do red, green, and that sounds blue. I don't do that. But I do more architecturally. It's a weird thing, but it always works.

It worked like that. How do we get you to New York now? Because you're... Yeah. Because I wake up one day and I decided that you know what this is ridiculous I should be singing and I went and I quit So you had that feeling Which he's from New York too so no I get that but I'm saying

I quit I quit the bank job I left the band How do you I gotta hear this so so they're saying to me When you march into the office I'm leaving like I just I just quit and I just Was it dramatic now? No drama No I mean it was dramatic for those guys I mean we were doing regionally in that part of the country Like we had a PBS special

You know? Really? Yeah we did all this kind of stuff and I was and I said I'm going back to New York and that, oh, you'll be back, you know, and all that is up. And I'm like, I never even, I never looked back. But, you know, that was it. And I just decided, this is crazy. And I'm going back to New York. And you can't do something for real here.

This is great. You know, you can be like a big fish and a small planet. Is this Richmond? Yeah, and fabulous. I mean, I had the best time. I loved everything. It was great. That people were darling.

We had the best home. It was so much fun. But I knew I had to go back to New York. Okay. And that was the whole. So your apocryful story is your, is a catcher. Rising Star, you're on stage. I go on a 245 in the morning. Is it just

a kind of an open mic? It's open mic. That's what it was. Is it rockabai baby or Dixie's on the way? I was still doing like cabaret music. You know, you have to understand that. Even though like his whole sensibility started as a young child, the only part of

my life that was about pop music and rock and roll music was what I liked as a person, not as a performer. Sure. Because my whole thing was about classical music and theater. I was in every musical that was possible to be in. But my favorite singers were like

you know, Robert Plant and you know, the four totes. But I also saw mention of you being inspired by Liza Minnelli. No, this is a total fallacy. Okay, great, that's the problem with the internet. It's a total fallacy that I had all of my gay friends. Because I love

Liza, that's why I was going to ask you. I mean, I love her mother. I mean, she's fabulous, but that's not what happened. Tell me, tell me the real story. I'm going to tell you what happened. I have all my gay friends. in Richmond, okay? They say, we're going to go see Liza Minnelli at the, whatever, Richmond Coliseum. It's a giant thing. I'm working in the bank. I'm singing with, no, I'm not singing yet. I'm just working in the bank. These are my friends that I work with at the bank, the gay guys, they want to go. I'm like, sure, whatever. I loved her mother. She's great. Let's go.

We go, here's what happens. The lights are still on in the building. The stage is dark. She's not out yet. I'm sitting there and I'm looking around and I'm looking around. And I'm looking around and I'm thinking to myself, and then the lights come on and she comes out and she starts singing. And I say to myself, are you kidding me? I can do that. And I quit the next day. So it's not her.

But God bless Liza because she was there in the right. Do you ever meet Liza? Sure. But it wasn't her as a performer. It was what she was doing inside this. I just want to talk about Liza. That's why I'm poking about it. It's the rumor.

He's one person who starts it by the time At the end of the day, it changes. No, Robert Plant and Levi Tubbs. Those are the people, you know what I'm saying? From Fort Charles. And like Joni Mitchell. These are the people that were in, and John Lynn. No, I just thought it was an interesting, you know, things.

I know. Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. So is Chrysalis, somebody from Chryslist sees you and... I'm in New York and I'm going to be a Star kid. I'm showcasing. Yeah. Okay. I make...

But are you looking for a deal? I'm making the transition from being a cabaret musical theater singer. Took me three years. Okay. Start working with songwriters because I'm so used to. I'm still singing other people's music and emulating, you know, what their performances are. People in your ear, because there's always somebody in your ear when you're young, what were they telling you that you should be?

Because obviously we know who you became. He told me I should be Olivia Newton-John. They said, look how good she's doing. And are you crazy? Girls don't do this. that no problem. Of course, but girls don't sell at Madison Square Garden and I was like, and that's all I needed. That's all you had to say, done. Was Liza Minnelli. And girls can't sell up Madison Square Garden. That's why you had to say.

Sorry, sorry. Sorry, it was a bad joke. So you get offered a deal and now you're... First, I have to go through like three years of the transition. Okay. But you know, then the movie that's a quick cut. I know, but it's not that quick because... I don't know. I want to hear about... It was me like... I'm actually... It was me starting to sing, you know, like trying to sing satisfaction. I sounded like Julie Anders. It was like not, you know...

Is that where you kind of... Because when I first heard you would amaze me is I love that you had a rock quality to your voice. That's my earliest memories of listening to you. It was like, wow, I actually like a woman singing rock. I just learned, though, because I loved it so much. I just didn't know how to take everything that I had here. Yeah.

I didn't know if that was natural because it... It was the most unnatural thing. on earth. But that was, for me as a young fan, that was like, that's what attracted me. Well, good. My work is doing. Oh, yeah. But it was because I never, I was working with guitar, like, you know, guitar players and

everything. Everybody was, and they were patting me on the head, like, yes, yes, we understand, yes, and I'm like, no, you don't understand at all. And when I signed with Chrysalis, I still didn't know Spider yet. And that first, we did, we still had Heartbreaker, what do we have? Heartbreaker,

I need a lover. No. No. No. net heartbreaker. And we had, I don't know, something, I don't know, we had a few songs. Don't skip. Don't jump my storyline. I got to talk about Rick Derringer. Okay, we're going to get there. But the point is that... You did warn me, by the way.

I did. I warned you. I tried to warn you. No, please, please. No, I'm actually really interested in it, because I think the problem is... But I'm getting to him, which is really important, is that I couldn't find anybody who actually understood what I was doing. Okay, I get to that.

They're patting me on the head. we actually made a beginning of a record five songs with chrysalis me and all these people they put together wadi and all these people and terry ellis came to me when we did the five songs and while we were doing it i was thinking oh my god i have this is my one chance and this is not it and i'm like freaking out and he comes to me and he says to me you know it's the first time i don't want you to expect too much and i said oh my god i expect everything. Has that changed? No, that's never saying. That's why I'm quiet right now. He got scrapped. It got scrapped.

And then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Cullen. Now Mike didn't do a whole lot of work on. But don't jump my story. You're jumping ahead. No, but you're jumping way ahead. No, because it's important. You're jumping. Because let me give you a perspective, right?

First time I ever see your husband is he's with you. So that's all I know is a fan. But when I actually do the research, it's like, oh, he did this. No, he did. That's what I was trying to tell you. But I'm saying, let me tell that story too. You tell that story. No, because as a fan, you know, you get these impressions, but they're not accurate.

They're not. Okay. Go. Right. That's what I'm saying. Thank you. You know why? Because there's a thing.

There's a little formula. Assumption plus judgment equals X. So you assume something. You don't really know. And then you judge that. And most of the time, 5% you may be right. 3%. You don't really know.

In other words. Yeah. Because I consider myself a bit of a snobby rock historian. And when I did my research on you, it surprised me because, and I want to talk about those things, but it was like, I found myself connecting dots like, oh, I didn't know you did that. And that makes sense.

And that's where that sound went this way. And that's why it had this influence. So that's why this partnership works. But as a fan, and by the way, the albums were called Pat Benatar. Correct. Okay, I get you. But I'm saying as a fan, it's not Pat and Neil. No, we tried.

And let me tell you, because I woke up 430th morning to interview you guys today, to get ready. And, you know, the first thing I opened my email, and some of you sent me email, I said, Pat Neal, and it just read like two old ladies. Like, who were Pat and Neil? Like, you know what I mean?

I was like, who's an old lady? No, but I get that, what I'm saying is like, I'm like, who's Pat Neal? Because the way it just rang, you know what I? Okay, so Rick Derringer. I love Rick Derringer, by the way. Rick's the greatest. Please tell me about Rick.

Because I always love rock and roll, Hitchie Koo, but I love Rick with Johnny Winter. The greatest. What was this band? Rick's original band. Oh, you mean the Hanse Lute B, yeah. Oh, the Bcois.

Bcois, yeah. Great band, number one record. Basically, everything Rick's ever touches really good. Yeah. Like guitar players, we know Rick's really good. Great player. Yeah.

So tell me a little bit about, yeah, it was fantastic. There was like 400 people auditioned or something. There was 200 plus people auditioned. Yeah, that's impressive, yeah. Or tell the whole thing going up to it. Yeah, I will, hold on. So, you know, I was playing in many bands.

That was young, 21 years old. So a lot of bands, like you do. and you're growing up and doing all these things. Doing strange covers and weird songs, you know, you're never playing in high school places that other people were playing, making a lot of money.

We didn't do that in the bands I was with. So anyway, so I was playing in this band. I was getting kind of depressed, and I was moving around. I was playing bass, guitar, and keyboard. It was just, it was one of these four-piece bands where everybody kind of switched around, you know? And I was playing in a band,

and this person came up to me during the break and says, wow, you're a great bass player. Would you like to audition? for what the heck is his name now with white trash the Cleveland guy no he was in white trash

with Edgar Winner Edgar Winner the bass player Hartman okay yeah I can't remember now I was like

that's what happens you get older forget this but anyway I said to him I said to him audition I said well I have to ask my bandmates if it's okay if I do something

and he goes it's in New York I says but I'm more primarily it gets our play and a piano, but I don't play bass. You don't want to be a bass player. So he said, oh, well, Rick Derrens was looking for a guitar player. I went,

can I, could I see him? So he set up an addition for both of them the same day. I went to Rick first. I got done auditioning for Rick, and I says, well, I got, Dan Hartman. Dan Hartman. And then.

Singer-songwriter, Dan Hartman? Yeah, yeah, bass player, yeah. And then I said, Rick, I says, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. I says, I got to go audition for Dan Hartman. Now he goes, no, you don't. You're not going.

I said, well, I have an audition. He goes, no, you're not. So I became a finalist in the last five out of these 200 kids of players. But it goes like this. This is the funny part about this. So as I'm waiting to go do the audition the first time, this guy walks out. He's got this long black hair.

He looked like fobby. A leather jacket. All these rings and all these came out. I went, oh, my God. There's no. chance. I'm going to get this gay because I had a rope belt, pair of jeans, white Snakers, and a white t-shirt. That's all I had. And I looked at him and he goes, hey, how are you doing?

I go, good. I go, I'm Neil. And he goes, I'm Rudy. Rudy Valentino was his name. Now, it's a funny part of the story. So he comes out and he's like, oh, Jesus, I ain't got a chance. Well, it went in there. It went really well. I had to come back. So in order to addition for Rick and Aaron, are you just jamming? You're playing a song? Well, they told me a few songs to learn a song. I learned everything. Yeah. Okay.

And then when I went in there and started playing, and I says, you know, you're going to do any Jerry Lee Lewis? I know you do this rave up stuff. And, you know, we might. I go, well, I play piano too. He says, well, prove it. Put the piano in there. I play it. Prove it.

So what else you do? I go, I like to write songs. You know, I sing back up. I don't care much about singing, but I love writing. And he does. Okay, prove it. So I had to go back to Cleveland with the band. and write a song and record it.

Oh, you didn't have any songs. No, record it. Not that I could play him. I was too embarrassed. I wrote something, recorded it, and went back, and that's when I got the gig. Wow. Yeah, so it was...

And you're with Rick, how long? About a year and a half. Yeah, about a year and a half. Actually, when we made the first record, I finished the first record. I was back in New York, and I saw Johnny Winter. Yeah.

And he heard the record. I played him. record and he goes oh i like that i like that i go yeah i you know i'm in rick's band you know i don't think i can go back to rick he goes no he'll you should be you should be there i says johnny winter told you yeah yeah wow that's interesting yeah and then rick says you're coming back right man i'm sorry because you felt you had an arc well here here's the thing for me this is the basis of why this works so well from my perspective i'm not a singer i sing because i have To the right. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, wait, how good a singer is?

No. No, I'm not. He's got real soul. It's like amazing. No, I'm not. So all I'm looking for is a great singer. Right. It's a work. That's all I want. Somebody that can sing and do, because I love a lot of different genres. You know what they say in life. Be careful what you wish. I know that. Look what happened. That's what I'm saying here. So, I mean, and I didn't care. You got the full deal. I know. I didn't care if it was a woman, a guy. I don't care. I just want a great singer. And all the bands I was with, I had singers in a band, but they weren't great.

I wanted great. And then when I met Patricia, I went, oh, I said, first thing I told her, I said, you sure you want to do this? Well, why did you say that? Because her voice was so smooth and easy, and she was doing falsetto. She wouldn't go to the note in a real voice. She didn't have that yet. Do you mean the rock?

Yeah, that's what I'm telling. Yeah, she would cheat on it. Yeah, I get it. And then-cheating? That's cheating. For rock people, it's cheating. It's cheating. So I told her, you sure you want to do this?

I don't want to be the guy that's going to damage your voice, you know. Oh, because to push your voice and... Yeah, because... Well, you can hear what Rock does do our voices, right? We kept working. We kept working until we hit that sprint. How long was that period of working? Well, a couple months.

Because I heard... Are you writing to or just working on it? Just working on that bit. Writing was part of that process later, but it was... I just, I knew that there was something else that she had in her. that she had to get to, because she had all this range, and it was, but it didn't, it didn't carry this note, did not carry with the regular voice here,

it went to falsetto. He said, you can't do that. Can I tell you that? You can't do that. It's your turn. The reason that happened. You guys are so cute together. They're not cute.

No, but this is what, but this is what, observation. What happened is that, what I was saying is that when I was making the record the first time, I had all these people who were amazing players, but none of them was doing what I was talking about. And I... Sorry to interview. Was it an emotional thing you were after or a feeling?

Explain it to me. Explain it to me how you explained it to them. I was looking for this really powerful bed to sing on top of. Is that rock to you or just an emotional feeling? No. It was a musical thing. I was looking for... Emotional.

I hate to interrupt you, but I really want to understand. Is it rock that you're... Are you saying, I want to sound like this band or is it an emotional... Understand? Like, what's the languishing you were using? Okay. because, sorry, because you did get there obviously together. And I was one of those people who bought that first record and was like, what is this?

So whatever you figured out was good, but I want to know what you told him. Okay, I didn't want to be a girl singer singing falsetto parts up at the top. I wanted to be this other thing. I heard it. I knew what I heard in my head. there wasn't enough there wasn't enough bass of music like I didn't have enough power underneath it

to push you to push you okay I got that okay so what happened was when then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Coleman Mike and I was sitting together and he was like hilarious he could do like three songs and I was like whatever and Peter was going to do the record which turned out to be the best thing that happened but Mike and I sat together and he said what do you want

and I told him that and he said to me I got your guy. Because I was with Derringer. He saw me, because he produced Rick's record. But Mike Chapman had also done like the suite and stuff like that. So he knew how to get a... But he knew exactly what I was talking about. So when you explained it, he thought of him.

He thought of him. And he and I said, okay, fine, let's do it. So all he wanted us to do was to meet each other. Okay. That was it because he knew exactly what I was talking about. So take me to that first meeting. You look and say, here's my future musical partner, here's my future husband. Like, what was your first impression?

It was everything. They say women no, right? They do. They say, my wife said she knew right away. And it just took me 12 years to figure it out. I don't know what to do with that because it was so. We'll stay on the professional side of the equation. No, but I'm saying, no, but I mean, it's an important part of the day is that I was signed, okay, as me.

with a bunch of fabulous musicians who were just coming and going. No band, not yet. We're at SIR. He's coming down. SIR here? No, New York. Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. We don't know each other at all. I know about him. Was he wearing a rope belt when he came in?

Yes, he was. And he, when they told him to New York to meet this person, he didn't know at first that I was a female. He didn't know. He just heard an singer. And the first thing he said was... I mean... Well, that's what a guy would say.

That's telling you. So I want you to understand where... That was where that was. But they told them that I was this... See, this empathy here is I'm Sicilian, too. He doesn't know that, but I... You are too, so you connect. I feel in the flow.

That's what I'm saying. That's why we connect. And I am a ballbuster because it is the women's movement, and I'm not having anybody tell me what to do ever, okay? I kind of got that feeling right about now. I just met you, but... So anyway... I'm quiet.

Now, I'm prepared for this guy who they're telling me all about now. He's young. I mean, he's younger than me. All this stuff and everything. And I have my back to the door. I'm talking to my manager at the time. And they say,

Neil Geraldo's here. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And I'm signed. Okay. And I... And he says, I hear him say that he didn't bring his guitar. Well, no, I was playing piano first.

So this is different. So he was going to play piano. He didn't know what he's coming to play. And he says to somebody in the room, my back is still to him, can I borrow your ex, man? And I'm like, what? And I'm, like, going to turn around now and just go like this. Okay?

And I turn around, ready to just like, like this, I turn around. And I go, oh, my God. Okay. He hasn't played a note. He turns around and he's got the guitar on his body, and he goes like this, like that. I know how he spans that stage. I got it.

Right. So now I'm seeing him. All swagger. Now, and I want to smack my own face, okay? I want to smack out of myself, like, get a grip, okay? What the fuck are you doing, okay? And I'm looking at him, and I don't know. I can't even breathe now, and he hits one chord.

And I'm like, that was a good. That was the sound you were looking for. That was it? You found out all this stuff later, right? You're just like, I wanted an ACOR. I know. A&R guy. Oh, yeah, the A&R guy.

But what she misses, what she leaves out is a fact that, yeah, Mike saw me play. Thank Mike was the guy that connected his all. Saw me play with Derringer because he produced the record before, the record before with Derringer. So he's perfect. He's a guy that understands a song structure to play instruments, she can do help in the writing to produce, all these things, here I am. Ready to come, perfect, perfect match.

So I go down there because I want to talk to her. It's kind of like we're auditioning each other in a way. Because what is it you want to do? And how could I be helpful in this? Yeah, for all you know, it's just another. I don't know. Yeah. So I sit down at the piano and play piano.

I says, well, what do you think about? I heard some of the demos in those or whatever that part of that record was. And it wasn't anything like. What did it sound like to like kind of schlocky? Well, there was, first I was a, AOR kind of. Clean. Well, there was, there was no, there was no, there was no emotional giving of, of attitude or puncher, it wasn't there. Because it couldn't be.

And her singing was very light, like, you know, hitting the notes, pretty. And she did a cover of crying, Roy Orbison, crying, okay, beautiful. But what, that ain't what you're trying to do here. So when we started playing at that rehearsal, I started playing. And I stop and I say, you just talked about what you want to do? That's not happening yet. So that's when I knew we had to start developing, changing keys, arrangements, things, pushing, working, working together. So what convinced you that you wanted to be musically involved?

The life part is coming, but the musical, like, what were you like, okay, I want to, or did you just see it as an opportunity? I saw it as an opportunity, but it was also a gift. because of the raw talent. It wasn't as though Patricia was doing clubs for 10 years prior to that. In that rock and world,

the world that we grew up in, she wasn't experience in that. She was not that quote, I hate to do this, this chick girl singer in rock. I totally know what you mean. She wasn't that. When I met her, I'm thinking,

you're such a normal, nice year. educated, you went to school. You know, all these things. You didn't play. And probably not, and also not overly affected in how she was singing, right? Nothing. It was, so it was this really, this really virgin

musical journey that I could be able to really embrace and be from a beginning. So you saw your own kind of. Oh, totally. It was a way to a partnership, because when we met and we decided that yes, okay, I'm the guy and this is going to work, there was a partnership done

between her and I. We were equal partners. She had the record deal, but we were equal partners in the fact that we were anything, in other words, it was a pretty strange thing, but when the A&R says, I'm glad this is going to work, you can do anything you want. That was the word.

Anything you want. So, you guys met in 78? Is that right? Yes. Okay. So please don't jump. I'm too far ahead. But you mean 78? How soon from that, let's call it ground zero of meeting and you go, uh-oh, like I have this feeling,

how soon are you talking like you're talking now? Is it six weeks, six months? In music or which way? Well, in my mind, in the movie in my mind, there comes a day where you guys sit down at a coffee shop and go, okay, we got to sort of figure this out because whatever's happening here is bigger than... Okay, you mean this. This was 70. It doesn't matter. It just strikes me that your partnership is so intense, and obviously it's remained.

We decided. It was in 79, too, by the way. It was in the month of May, I think, in 79 when we met. That's true. It was, I knew they told me about you 78, but we decided this immediately, because I was such a willing, a willing acolyte. But are you pitching him on love and business or just business? No, we're not together. We make that whole record not together.

We're not together. But you're having these feelings. No, we're losing the lines, but we're like, we know what this means and we know that we should not do this because... Is it the... If we cross this line, we might hook up this other thing that's obviously going to work. Totally. They were in there. Don't you dare.

Oh, so you had other people in your ear. Yeah, they were in there like, do not, do not this up. Okay. Now, we were like insane. Okay. It was crazy. But, you know, it made that record really fun because it was so much tension and, like, you know, all that kind of stuff on. And it was bad.

And how are you feeling through this whole? Yeah, I had a girlfriend. And I was living in Southern California. She was married. And I had a girlfriend. And then that went sideways. So, you know. I bless that day.

That was, that was, that was the universe kind of talking. I mean, he was like all hooked up. It was, you know, it was like a thing. And I was trying to get divorced. And as soon as I knew that this was going to happen, I sent people to take him to get divorced. So we had just like that, you know. All right. back to business.

Yes. First record, right? I got this right, right? Yeah. So let me ask you this. And this has gone on. A lot of covers interspersed, but great songs,

cool choices, like the rascal song. You better run. We said it on the first or second record. Okay, but I mean, I always liked that you guys picked really cool. For cover songs?

Yeah. I wasn't writing yet, and he wrote, the only song that we had that was original was We Live for Love. Of the first record. You like that one? You like that, he...

Sorry, we're talking like Shonai. But when she uses falsetto in that song in that context, it's actually very new wave. Correct. That was the point. But that works. That works. That was intentional for that.

Knowing I was going to talk to you guys, I went back and started listening to stuff, and I had this sense where I liked that song, because I heard it obviously, but I was like, oh, I love that song. When your voice goes up, it's so cool. It's a great. It's very alternative.

Yeah, it was. That was when we did... Is it? Yeah, we did 64 vocals for that, but not eight. We did, she didn't sing it 64 times. We did eight, and then we would fly it in. Okay, I guess you. You know, before.

Yeah, yeah. But I think this was cool, just as a side note is, your appeal is you, the rock audiences embraced you, which was unique, you know, Chicago, Cleveland, like. Yeah, I was. Girls singing rock, you had to be the right person. So if you look at the air, like, whether it's you or Chrissy Hine, very few women kind of broke through with a rock crowd embrace them.

Totally. But what's interesting is the alternative crowd that was coming that was listening to you, you were just as influential in this other way. Correct. So your rock world and your alternative role all comes from these moments that you guys are creating. That's pretty cool. Yeah. That was be, yeah.

Again, I go back to that genre stuff, the diversity. And that was really important to me as a musician and writer. conscious kind of decision. Yeah, I wanted to go into a lot of different directions because, again, the gift having the great singer, I was able to do anything. I mean, it was just... Well, you know, once you have success,

then they're going to let you go out. Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah, it just, it worked. You know, like in the first record, because Peter Coleman was such an incredible teacher. Great engineer. Oh, my God. He was so, he just was like,

he knew what we had as individuals. He knew what we had when we came together. And he was all about, giving us a safe space to go. Yeah, he was great. There was no, like, nothing was, nothing was wrong, nothing wasn't okay. Everything was, try, throw everything against the wall

because we had the capability to do that. We were able to do that, the way that, you know, because one of us, me, didn't have a clue, I was willing to do anything. She was great back to, what the A&R said he could do anything. I could do anything I want. And she was like, okay.

So is the internal conversation, hey, are you, I'm speaking as if I was him, are you willing to let me kind of throw you where I want to throw you and see what works? And you're like, cool, let's have fun. Let's have fun. Okay, great. So your lack of knowledge,

and so let's call the rock side of the equation, helped him figure out who you were. It was a blank. Help me figure out who are. Well, what's so amazing about that, and credit to both of you is, is whatever came out sounded like, like you in the fans mind.

Like that's, that sound is you. Like there's no other sound that's you. So that's where I was a fan listening. Correct. And that was the heart that I heard in my head. Well, that's what's amazing. So from a nerd question, I was always struck and, again, I was listening today, the guitar always seemed to be cleaner than I wanted it to be.

Was that a conscious decision to make room for her voice? Well, or did you, or did you, because the song's rocked. It's not like, when you cranked them up, they sounded amazing. As we had the classic tube stereo in the first of my father being a musician, that's where they did all their cocaine, you know. You had a really loud stereo. I had the first two records and cranked them, right? So they sound great.

But I'm saying from a nerd point of view, was that space conscious, like you were talking about space before? Not conscious. The only thing was was when I never liked the overly distorted guitar because I couldn't hear the articulation. And I love playing. You always played strats back then, right? What was it?

I remember you playing strats live or am I? Yeah, no, no, I did strats and tellies. Yeah. B.C. Rich gave me guitars in the early 80s as well, and I used those too as well with the Hombarkers, that kind of stuff. But I always had a cleaner tone. Even if I played with a distorted amp, it always came out cleaner, and I don't know why.

Is it just the way you... I think it's a way I attack heavy strings, real heavy strings. I fight the guitar. Okay, maybe that's part of it. Yeah. Because your sounds so distinctive. Correct. Now, as a kid, I wanted more, like, heavy strings.

Sure. Well, you guys had, yeah, it was fantastic. But I'm saying, I always wanted that. I always wanted that. And even live, I've heard live recordings where it's a little bit more like typical rock sound. But missing the records now, the genius of it is the clarity is there because it's really about celebrating your voice. Correct. Oh, always. It was always. The older producer in me says that was the right decision.

Always. As a kid, though, I wanted more, like, loud. Sure, sure. No, it's always about spatial. Listen, nobody is going to be walking around singing guitar parts. You listen it to the vocal. That's the most important thing. Because he was the most generous person. He was yards ahead of me when we started. Yards. How about now, though?

We're equal. Well, I'm a little bit. But my point is, he was years ahead of me, yards ahead of me, in that area of the world. Now, it wasn't like I wasn't a school musician I was, but not here. was fascinating to me because I had all this I had all of this education and I could articulate and I could you know I could basically sing in anything that I wanted to sing in except this really so this was nothing but fun but he was so generous this was the I can't even tell you what a glorious first time this was because

Everyone that was in there, we were all about the good of the whole. He was always about, he was last. He made himself last all the time. It was always about the song. It was always about the performance of the song. And that's what he did. I mean, the arrangements, he did work and working, and he was learning engineering. He learned in like a moment.

And it was amazing because it gave me that bed that I was, was looking for a freedom and safety that I could fly. Yeah. Okay, so now you're on tour. You're still, you're feeling this feeling. Like, at what point does this damn break open where you're like, okay? Before we go on tour. Yeah, before the first show.

Because his girlfriend breaks up with him, and we're sitting at lunch. And meanwhile, you know, I'm pretty much going to commit suicide because I can't take it any longer. We've made this whole record, I'm going to kill myself. and I don't know what to do anymore and I don't want to screw this up and I'm trying to be my Capricorn self and not screw this up and I'm a very pragmatic, grounded human

and I'm dying and he sits down and he says I have to talk to you and I'm like oh fuck he's gonna quit the man we didn't even get out we didn't even go okay all right fine I'm going we're going to go have a drink together in the afternoon after

rehearsal and he says you know she's leaving me and I'm like You have no idea I'm like this and like Oh God, I'm like Because I'm like the Catholic girl Who would never take another girl's boyfriend

See, back to Roman Catholic There it is, so we're back to that It would never happen I am a principled person I would never do this All he had to do is say that Done I know

Sorry and laughed Yeah I know that's I laugh to myself So 79-ish you guys are doing the Are you doing those tours like back then Where they just throw you on as an opening act Where you do it for a minute In the beginning, yeah

Yeah For a minute But then the record takes off and then you're We get fired, we get fired We can't go on after us People that we're opening for can't go on after us We get fired You want to name any names

Who fired you? I want to know It wasn't not fired Well, they want you to go home Yeah not fine They don't want you to look better Yeah, well, he once, oh, it's funny, in the very beginning, we opened for Eddie Money, and he was a, he's a great guy. I've met Eddie. He's right out of central casting.

Yeah, he's like, yeah, he's like Rodney Dangerfield. Totally, yeah. And his mother came up to us and just says, you know, you guys should be closing. Eddie, you should be opening up. His mother tells us that. Oh, my God. No, yeah, so. Yeah, it was fun.

We didn't do very, we didn't last long at all. We went straight to arenas. We didn't even. Well, not a re. On the first album? No, no. No, no, no. We went from clubs. Yeah, but for me a minute.

Yeah, then it started going up pretty. It went pretty quick. Because it got crazy, like, really fast. We went to theaters, bigger theaters. We went to theaters and it was like, you know. Did you, because if you're not a rock singer in Miles, which is kind of what you're saying, when you went on the road, did you find it was hard to adjust at all?

No. Oh, we loved it. It's not everybody can make that transition. Oh, no. I was like, in my element. I could sing every day and I was traveling. I loved it. Because the way things work these days, like people give me tapes, you know.

And maybe it's because we're in an age of empowerment, but a lot of females will give me, you know, they give me advice. And you can tell they haven't really sung on stage. They don't have that 10,000 hours thing. Oh, yeah. They can sing fine. I had always performed. It just doesn't have the...

Understood? Yeah, but I had always performed. I did... Okay, that's when I was curious if that was a challenge for you. I was a competitive performer, too. Well, but, you know, back then the monitoring wasn't so great. Oh, no, it's terrible. We didn't have that.

I sang acoustically. You know, I sang opera. We didn't have... Yeah, but again, rock is a different... It's a different animal. But I'm saying that performance was not an issue to me. It was easy. That's cool.

That was a piece of cable. Yeah. I thought this is cool. I didn't know this. You Better Run was the second MTV video ever played? First female, first guitar player on MTV. Well, but the first one video killed the radio star wasn't too far off. No.

Grammy Award for Best Female Vocal on, it would have been, Hit Me With Your Best Shot? No, it was crimes of passion, and it was the whole record. It was. Was that it? Yeah.

80, 1980. Okay. Let me see here. I want to know this, because I believe you guys are co-writes on this song, but tell me this. Let me read this,

and then you tell me who wrote this lyric. They cry in the dark so you can't see their tears. They hide in the light so you can't see their fears. Forgive. and forget all the while love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of a wounded child who wrote that lyric. I want to thank you.

Great. Yeah. That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through. Oh, no. Oh, good. Thank you for that. I love that song. We hear that a lot from people that hurt and wounded.

I'm getting chills just talking about it because that was. The line against me is be a good little boy and you get a new toy. Tell Grandma you fell off the swing. is that just rips me. Thank you for that because it's hard to explain, and obviously we live in different times, but back then there was so little information if you were being abused that just somebody acknowledging,

because when you would go to your family back then, they'd say, well, that's what happens, or that's how we were raised. You go to the neighbor kids, and they were all getting their asses kicked too. So to hear somebody on a record that I admired singing about what I was going through was like, whoa. That's the connection.

That's fantastic. About this song was that. Hell is for children is the song. Hell is for children. The incarnation of this song happened when we were in New York and Roger Caps, who was our bass player for many years there, we were reading, there was a serial article that came out in the Times for a couple of weekends. Neither of us had ever heard about this happening. We didn't experience. I didn't know anybody that.

Are you talking about sort of... Abuse? ...ruchal abuse or just kids being abused? Just any part of abuse. I didn't... I mean, kids got spanked. I never heard about the horrors of, like, abusing children. I mean, he...

You know, we grew up in, like, really good families, you know what I'm saying? We didn't know any of this stuff. And I was horrified. So what do I do when I'm... When anything influences... I just start writing. Like, I write. I just write, I write, I write.

And when we got... most of it, Roger wrote, of course. Roger wrote a lot of it as well. And when we handed it over to Spider, we said, can you make this, can you make the pain in these words happen with that guitar? Can you make this arrangement?

Do this. And he said, give me it. And that's what we did. Melodically, it was a whole scope. It was meant to start off real somber. And then it gets, and he started getting a little angry. And then you're really pissed off.

That's kind of the whole, In the beginning, we had two things happen, which was really interesting. We had the religious right boycotting our concerts. Okay, I didn't know this part. They were protesting outside. Because you were calling out child abuse. Yes. You know what Ted Cruz just did, right?

You know what he did? Ted Cruz, I don't know, a couple of months ago. A couple of a year by now. Maybe it is on us. He's talking about Biden and, you know, and blah, blah, blah, Biden is this. And he's like the evil doer and all this kind of stuff. And he said it's like, he said, picture Biden. and howling at the moon having Pat Matt Darsing,

hell is for children. I was like, you. It's literally like hell is for children. So this is why the religious right boycotted. They protested at our concept. They burned the records. In the meantime, while this was happening, we were getting bags of mail.

Our post office was like, what do you want us to do with this? It was like being Santa Claus. That's how much mail we got from people like yourself. What you just said. Yeah. It's interesting, right?

Yeah. Now, of course, with things things are talked about so openly. In fact, just to give you some relatability, when I started talking about child abuse in my songs in the early 90s, I was accused of using as a marketing gimmick. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. And then I would, and even to this day, it still happens not so much anymore,

but people will ask me to qualify the abuse. Oh, that's ridiculous. Oh, like how bad was it? How bad was it? And I said, well, you know, nobody tore my arm off and beat me over the head with it, but are we doing the abuse Olympics? Like, am I supposed to win a gold medal? Yeah, what amount?

What amount? Yeah, I even had a horrific experience where a family member, I told this person about a lot of stuff that I've been through. And they gave me a book about a boy who was horribly abused. I think it was like a boy called It or something. And the abuse was like, it was so shocking what this poor child went through. And, but I remember reading the book and thinking, okay, that happened to me. There was stuff in there like, you know, you go days without food or be.

locked out of your house and the cold, all these weird, and I was like, okay, that happened to me. And about, there were nine things in the book. This person certainly had it worse than I did, but there were nine things in the book that I'd been through. Like, you know, like a checkmark. And so after I finished reading the book, the family member said, did you like that book that I got you? And I said, oh, yeah, it really, really touched me, you know?

And they said, yeah, I thought it would help. And I started kind of explaining what I just explained you. And they go, no, no, no, no, you misunderstood. I wanted you to understand that you got you you shouldn't be complaining. Oh my gosh. Because because this person had it worse than you. So that's, I've done a lot of different times advocacy for for abuse kids. But what I always say is you know if you've been abused.

Absolutely. You don't have to, there's nothing to prove. No, of course not. It's ridiculous. To even ass like that. It would be acceptable is insane. And it's not like a contest. Like, what are we talking about?

That's insane. I mean, probably as short as the last few years, I've had, like, big reporters asked me to qualify my abuse. Still? They talk about it? That's insane. Oh, that's ridiculous. That's crazy.

That's ridiculous. Well, we live in a crazy business. Yeah, I know. That's no good. Um, so. Precious time. Now you're producing. Yeah.

Well, I was, I was producing as well, yeah. Now your name's on the record. Yeah, now they said it was okay to put my name on it. Yeah. He was doing it before. I'm not saying it stops being rock, but there seems to be a shift towards maybe a wider palette. Was that deliberate?

Yeah, of course. So what was your aim? I didn't want to be eighth note guitar-driven songs anymore. I wanted it to be, I wanted it to spread out, open up. I want to use different instruments. I want different rhythms. I play drums. I love drums.

I used to play drums to Simon and Garfocal records because they had no drums. So I used to play my own rhythms. Yeah, yeah. So everything's rhythm to me. Okay, right. And I wanted to explore more rhythm in different instruments doing it, you know? Yeah, yeah.

I love that. And what was your... Yeah, you know, we were grown up now. She was cool. I mean, after we do a record, the next day I would write something... And it's completely different. And maybe hand it to the record coming and they go, why can't you just do the same thing?

I go, no, no, I want to keep changing and keep evolving. Yeah, I didn't know if that was, you know... That was intentional. Because we're all been in that situation where somebody's trying to push you. No, they can't ever do anything. Well, now that I get that. The record company turned down many things that I handed in that became hits.

Sure. Because I refused to change them because I wanted to... Walk me through that process a little bit. Sure. I think I like talking about these things publicly because these are things we talk about, probably in the music business. Imagine you're on top, you've got hit records,

you're on MTV, you're young, everything is going in the right direction, and there's some guy in the office going, No, no, I don't feel it. That's what happened a lot. I give an example, we love is a battlefield is I had the whole song done in my head, the whole thing,

like the architectural look of it. I had the rhythm, I had all this kind of thing going on. It was my first day, I had a lindrum. I just was randomly playing a beat on it. I made a mistake, made an eight-bar phrase, a seven-bar phrase. I liked the rhythm of it. I was starting to build it, but I had all the parts.

I had everything all working. And even our engineer, co-produced with me, Peter Coleman, was ready to tell me that I think you need to listen to record company, and I think we need to do this some different way. A different way. I says, I'm not going to do that, Pete. He goes, okay, let me listen to it tonight. So he goes home, he never drinks.

He doesn't drink. He drinks half a bottle of cognac. He realizes as he's with those Altix speakers, you remember those altics as big as he had those in this, huh? He played the demo, not the demo, He played where we were at with it. Yeah. And he finally realized he went, oh my God, I think Neil's on to something.

So he came in the next day, he goes, I support you for whatever we need. So I wouldn't, I refuse to change it. I covered that song once. You probably have never heard it. It was bootlegged out, but it's, I did for a movie. I did this really, I tried to find it because I thought I'd mention it. And if I could, I could play free on a phone. But I can't find it, but I'll send it to you to have no problem.

But it's like a really. sad acoustic version. Well, that's how it's a record. That was kind of began like that. But then I heard this thing, I heard it quicker. It just happened. Yeah, because as a fan when you guys went there, I didn't get it.

Now I think it's, now I love it. I think it's amazing. Here's a tip though. Here's what I did a lot. I love doing this. I do this. I believe that life of records have a longer shelf life if you don't like it when you first hear it. That's interesting. It's really important because you're unsure

you can't understand what's going on. Like, what is he thinking about? Like, what is it? And then you listen to him together, go, wait a minute, what's going on here? Yeah. Then if it works, they love it for life. It's kind of like cilantro. That's all like cilantro. But see, like, this is my own version.

But like, when I first first first song, it didn't get it and obviously it was a big hit. And I saw the video and the crazy stuff. And then when I was doing this soundtrack back in 2001 for a movie called Spun. It was about a bunch of meth addicts.

And the director was like, what do you want to do musically? And I said, because I'd done enough drugs that I thought, what would people want to listen to if they're coming off a drug? So in my mind it was acoustic. But I didn't want to do Crosby Stills and Nash. Correct.

So I had this idea. And now, of course, we hear it everywhere we go to cafes. But it was the idea of taking popular songs but making them kind of sad acoustic songs. Sure. So that song kind of pop. dropped out of the ether of me, and then I did this cover.

The song was originally written as a ballad. As a ballad. It's a slow, slow, slow, bad. But then... You're baby, me go. And I'm like, and he's like, no. And I just heard Bo Diddley. That's so fantastic.

I'm both did it on some sort of medication. Yeah, well, it works, yeah. Tell him how you got the beat. And I just did with the lintrake. You told him that? I just did. You were thinking about your contractors. Yeah.

I did it when we belong to the same thing, a lot of rhythm, wacky, like why you have to, Why can't you just play on the keyboard? Why do you have to have it? All this stuff going on. That's what I do. They were constantly in our face all the time. That's so crazy to me.

I mean, I went through the same things. It's all the same. They're in your face, and we gave them a control on the, on the console. On the console that we said, well, you know, you just, you know, you think. You can chase a few things, but go ahead. It was attached to nothing. And they would go, and they would go, and we come back. And they go, what do you think?

We go, you know, it's actually an improvement that's really great. And meanwhile, they did absolutely nothing. But they drove us nuts. But we never, it was always like this to me. You know what I mean? Like, really? Yeah, I get you. Yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm just in my own head

because it's like those experiences just always blow my mind. The all is the same. They're all the same. Everybody goes through them. It's just crazy. It's crazy. But you know what? We're the artists and they're not, and they're the car salesman,

and I get that. and they're really good at that. But if they were us, they would be doing it, but they're not. And they're never going to be us. And they don't get it ever. Yeah. So as your relationship goes public, or it is public, how is that sort of, how did you navigate that? And I'm saying it from the context of, you know, we had a female when we started in her van for the first, you know, 10, 12 years.

And I saw all this weird sexist stuff go on. So I can only imagine what people were putting on. you both just as a female but also a female in a relationship. Correct. Well, I... Let me, sorry. Yeah. I mean, this is a compliment.

When I think of you two together, I don't, there's like, I can't think of any gossip. I can't, I've never heard any gossip on you guys. We could start some if you know. Okay, but I'm saying, you guys have had, your, your relationship is very quiet. Right. It is quiet. We try to keep that, go ahead. You know, people talk in studios.

I've never heard an unkind word about either. of you? I've never heard like, oh, this or that. It's by design. They used to say, like, uh, so that's kind of what I'm after. What were they saying? Because they must have been curious. I think in the beginning, they, they called me, what was I? Spengali. It was, like, Spengali. It was, uh, who was the guy with the, the pretty girl wife, uh, Rico Kasich? No, no, no, no. He was, uh, wow, what's that guy's, he was a director. It was a director. And they, they called me to that. I can't remember the name.

Director and his wife was real pretty. Was the... Ten was the movie called Ten? Oh, Bo Derek. Oh, John Derek. Oh, John Derek. So you were John Derek. Well, that's not...

John Derek. John Derek did play the Pink Panther with this. John Derek. Not a terrible comparison. No, but this is the guy that was kind of doing all this stuff and he was controlling and doing all this. Okay, so there's a perfect example.

So what's the implication? You're some puppet robot and he's really the... Yeah, for like eight seconds. I mean, I wouldn't let that. It lasted eight seconds because I was like, I wouldn't let that be. That's just, that's just silliness.

So when he starts doing this other productions, I assume you're supportive with this, because like Rick Springfield and all this other stuff. Sure. So I just talked to Rick Springfield a couple days. Yeah, that's fantastic. And he mentioned you. He's a good friend.

Yeah, what a sweetheart. But again, like, so now when I think of Jesse's girl and knowing you're on it, and I never knew that until the other day. It's like, well, duh, now I hear you. Sure. Yeah, that's, that's, it's kind of funny.

It's the story of my life. He was the only number one single, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it, yeah, I mean, I've done a ton of stuff, but I don't go around making noise with it and stuff. I didn't know you'd done this song, and I love this song, John Waite Change. Oh, yeah, I produced this.

But again, the minute I saw that you did it, I went back and listened to it, because I was like, is that, and I was like, what you did, I love in that song. But I never knew that was you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was his first solo record. And, you know, anybody I've ever worked with...

Was he from the babies, John? Yeah, babies. But everybody I've ever worked with that, I've never had a falling out with anybody. You know, I produce a record for him. We're still friends. Yeah, wrecked here. He did Steve Forward.

He did some of that. Did you do the Delards? Oh, yeah, Delors, sure. Dillards? Delorts. Oh, sorry, I like the Dillards. The Dictators. The dictators.

The dictators turned into Dillards. My good brother friend, Scott Kepner was with the dictators. He formed Delors' great band. So you're also having success as a producer. Was that any, not tension, I'm not looking for gossip. It's like, do you feel like you had to make choices? No. It was outside of your professional relationship anyway.

The only choices I made, you know, Ozzie wanted me to make a record for him, and I wanted to do it. How was it? Now, when was that? It was right after that record that was called Howl at the Moon? Was that the name of the record before? Park at the Moon? Bark at the boom.

It was going to be the next record. And I couldn't do the record because we were going on the road. And I wanted to give them enough time. I was talking back then I was talking about doing real-life loops, but not digital loops. Just a lot of different creativity in the process of making a record. And we got on really well, and I didn't do that record. I really wanted to do it.

But I couldn't because we had to go on the road. So the problem was I didn't have the time. It's kind of what I was after. I didn't have the time. I didn't have the balance of choices. I had a band I really liked who I wanted to do two and a half time. Swimming pool cues. Do you remember them?

I do remember that. Oh, I just loved it. That was kind of my generation. Yeah, yeah. They were cool. I like those guys and gals. It seems around 85 that your output, obviously collectively, your output becomes a little bit more sparse.

Is that, was there a reason for that? We have our first child. So is that because you wanted to devote more time to your family, or is it? Yeah. We still made a record every year until 89, I believe. Yeah. We were contracted to do it every. nine months. But it seems you can feel

somewhere around 85 there's this change. Yeah, we changed. We went into a different direction. We also did this really cool thing. I mean, it did. It was never going back to what it was before. Never. But we did. Can you explain that a little bit? Yes. I mean, it was because we had a baby now. And you talk about sexism, there was no

handbook for this, okay? Let me tell you about this. And they, because we were contracted to do a record every nine months, they set me down. I remember. I remember, it was terrible. I was breastfeeding. That baby was probably, how old is she? Four weeks, five, six weeks old? We have to have a lunch, and they're going to talk to me. Now, I'm breastfeeding, and I'm like freaking out, and I got all patted in my shirt because I'm going to have to leave my child for the first time, and it's not even two months. And they're telling me that, okay, that's great. You guys had a baby and all that, but chop, chop. Okay, so we're at lunch, and you can't talk about a baby as you,

you know because you have them with your wife when you are breastfeeding because the minute you talk about the child, your body reacts. I had to go in the bathroom of the goddamn restaurant we were in and ring out everything because I was experiencing letdown. And there was no slack. They didn't care. They didn't care about that. I had a newborn and all they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window

in Capitol records. Probably. I'm pretty passive. They blocked it out. Because they made us or put us on extension and that because... Explained extensions. Extension means that if you don't do a record in a certain amount of time, they will freeze all of your... Royalties. Royalties and everything else. And then

the contract extends. Okay. So... Which is not good. And I had our baby outside in a Winnebago with my parents watching that child so that I could go in there and make that goddamn record. And you know what the name of that record was? Seven the Hard Way. So talk about sexism? Oh, yeah.

And misogyny right there. No slack. And I talked to Chrissy. I talked to Chrissy backstage. And I said to her, she had Natalie and I said, how are you doing this? And she said, I'm not. because that was the part. Like I had conquered all that boys' clip

and everything else. With this next part, oh no. This is something else altogether. And that took time. So that's why that slowed down because I had to navigate, learn how to do this,

go in guns blazing, and figure out how to make them stop and be able to go in there and do what we had to do. Yeah. And your side of this equation, are you just working? I'm just working.

Yeah. I'm so deep. I still am to this day. I'm just so deep into that. I used to have a philosophy, it's wrong. It's wrong when it was passive and assertive. In the studio, I'm very assertive. She's very passive in the studio.

In real life, outside the studio, I'm very passive. She's very assertive. I used to think that was the right way. I was thinking that's the right way. But it's really not because you've got to kind of be equal. No, but I mean, he was supportive. It's support all the time. It's just.

It wasn't his fight. It was my fight. Okay. So because I think it's important because I think the music business is still grappling with, for lack of a better word, balance. The universe is grappling with balance. Okay, but let's take to the music business. Don't go political. I wasn't going political.

I was leaning. No, no, I didn't need it that way. I'm saying is what I'm saying is because you're so respected, I think the question I think to ask is what would have been the optimal circumstance in that? And just pause on that one second. Because people in the music business are just now starting to grapple with mental health issues. Right. Like, look how many people in my generation are gone. Yeah.

And we're gone by way way, way to all you capitalists would still be out there, by the way, to all you capitalists, would still be out there making money. That's true. Yeah, it's true. And they gave two with those people driving off cliffs. Yeah. True. Right? No question.

I felt that yesterday. So I have an answer, if you asked me, what should be the, you know, what should be? the position of the music business vis-a-vis mental health, they finally started at least dealing with the drug issues. So the question I want to ask you is what would it for you as a mother, especially young mother, what would have been the optimal circumstance for you so that it helps us sort of figure out how to do that going forward collectively? Okay, you cannot separate this from the worldview. And I'm not talking about politics. Okay. This is the worldview. It's like jumbo shrimp, okay?

You can't separate the music business. The music business is just a... How does Jumbo shrimp get into that, though? Because it's an oxymorin. It's like you can't be... You can't... You are still, no matter... I don't care what you do for a living.

It is... You can have it all, but you sometimes cannot have it all at once. Okay. Okay? So this is my point. This is what happens. I don't care what you do for a living.

If you are the female and you are having the babies, there is a path that doesn't change, I don't care, who you are or what you do. Okay, so practically, time off. Yes, if you would have given me six months, if you would have just been a little bit kinder and more compassionate, it didn't even, like, it was like, okay, you know, like, get a nanny, you know, basically.

I see. It was the most misogyn. I don't want to say what they're doing now. Right, I know. But it was disgusting. It was disgusting. And, you know, for being their premier person, it didn't matter a goddamn bit. Nothing.

That's hard to hear. Yeah? It's real. Is it true you haven't made an album since 2003? Correct. Maybe. Yeah. That's what I saw.

And I was like, I had a hard time believing it. It seems like a long time. It's a long time. It took over 20 years. I know. Okay, tell me why, though. Yeah. I mean, I'm still right.

Still write a ton a lot. I did film. scores. I do films and stuff. We have 150 songs written. Yeah, I think, I, I, I, I don't know. It's like, I, I don't,

I don't see, I don't see, like, I can't put this in the words. I don't see like a 360 view for a whole record. I don't see that. I don't know. Is it circumstantial for you? It's hard, it's hard to articulate this. It's like I want a record that where song one, the song 13, all makes sense in its togetherness.

And I don't have that because it's so diverse. There's so much diversity. Is it because of the changes in the business or the changes in the musical? No, no, just us. It has none to do with the business. I don't care. I'm just trying to understand. Yeah.

No, not that. It's just from an artistic point of view. There's now path for this. For that. But tell me what that means. It means that the amount of time... Well, that's different for her to me, so... But I mean, I'm saying this for both of us.

The amount of time and consideration and everything else it is to give out that much art that no one is going to hear. Okay. But see, this is where I'm going to disagree with you. Yeah, I don't believe that. I'm not believing that. That's my motivation. No, no, no, but I want to parry with you a little because I'm curious about this.

So I... Because I'm in a similar circumstance... Yes. You know what I mean? Because we're all facing... We're all looking at the same... You would be. No question.

I understood. Okay. It's not a loss for me. Could I argue with you as a fan? No, I understand that part. I do. And I understand that. But can I give you a slightly different take on that?

Yes. Okay. I'm asking permission. You got permission. Thank you. It's only because I'm older. It's okay. Let me say it as a sort of an overall comment,

because I've struggled with the same issue. So let's say we've all looked down the same telescope lens. And we go, hey, back in the day, at least there was the straight line, do this, do this, do this, get it right, you win and you feel it and you're there. And now, as we say often in my group, who knows what success is anymore? The business is basically reduced to who can sell tickets. That's where it is. That's correct.

Music has just become a marketing tool to sell tickets. Correct. We grew up in a time where it was the other way around. No question. Okay. So I understand the dynamics that you're, but here's my one argument. And please argue with me if you disagree. I think that we all grew up with,

I hope I die before I get old. Yep, no question. Right? Definitely. We've all blown past that. And I'm not talking about, hey, I hope I can go see you guys play these great songs one more time. I'm talking about a new way of thinking

because in many ways we're tasked with how to change the way the business works because no one before us was put in this circumstance. So in many ways, for the first people on this new planet, Correct, which is called social media over here and lack of a music business over here. Correct. So here's my one argument to you. I would be curious to hear from you where you're at right now. Correct.

And I don't give a fuck if nobody else cares because there's only one you and only one you. And your partnership is valuable. And I'm not talking even about fans. Your voice in the wilderness of this says, I don't give a, just like how you started. I don't give a fuck what you think. Correct. I'm going to do this because this is what I believe in. Now, if you say you don't need it, that's different. I don't need it, but I agree with you.

Here's, I agree with you that I think it is still valuable. I think that what we do is unique to us, okay? However, the mechanism to get that where it needs to go, I don't like. You're talking about streaming? No, any of it. Because my point is that if I was, if I, if we, if we, this record and we handed it you to take to your house, I would love that.

The idea that I have to hand this over to someone who's going to now what, you're going to like market it like, oh, it's a comeback. But you know, there's different business models. I know about that. Okay, good. I do. Because that's what we're doing. It is my quam. My quam is do not make

this like, here is a dinosaur partnership that we're going to try to make like important today okay because that's not what it is it's important because it just is you know what i mean so don't like put all this other crap that you're going to put it i don't even how to navigate what they're doing i can learn i'm really smart but that but the point is i don't want like i am a principled person you can't make me you can't make me do stuff i don't already

like what you're saying they're doing stuff what are they doing now they're putting putting our records out on colored vinyl. I'm like, oh, for God's sake, because their only reason to do anything is financial. And my only reason to do anything is artistic. Can I raise my hand now and tell you that I'm putting out my own records on colored vinyl? But that's okay, you're doing it.

But I'm saying you can do that too. Yeah, of course. No question. But their motivation. I hate the motivation. But I'm saying you can cut that crowd out now. I know that. If you want to.

That's true, but I mean, they only... I don't think you guys need a check, so why don't you just do what you want to do, correct? That's it. That is what I want to do. I want to only do what we have, and then I'll decide if it ever should be heard by anyone. Okay, that's all. I'm not trying to belaborate.

Yeah. Well, just two different thoughts here. She thinks differently than I do. So tell me how you think, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, with there's a difference here. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of who's going to hear it or who's not going to. I don't give a shit about any of that.

Really don't. It doesn't matter to me. I just don't like it. I know. Hold on a second, please. All the emotional success, not money and not anything, but the emotional success that I get from being brave and being innovative. Not for the reason of just being innovative because I think it's funny and like, oh, look at me. Not that.

It's not that at all. It's like how crazy can I really get? What can I really do? How can I live up to my heroes like Brian Wilson? How could I get in that club? I want to be there with that. So I have that fire. I have that thing.

That's what you need. With Patricia, it's a little different because I'm really left field. I'm really left field. And when we get in it, sometimes Patricia has an opinion these days more often than not where she'll fight that. In the past, she would fight it just for a short, very short time. No, the time's more extended.

You can't just be like crazy. But see, I don't... You have to prove it. I won't prove it. You did. You just proved it. You just showed me that... I did show you something.

That's right. What did I do? Tell me what happened. Yeah, you gave me a lot of shit about it, but you did do it. Because you got to prove it. Yeah. Let me...

Please, I want you to finish. But I think you... You understand what I'm talking about, because we kind of think of the same way, because I'm not afraid of it. I want to be brave. I really do. And I'm working on a Christmas record,

and I've been working on it for about 100 years, where it's diversity. Different people, putting people in uncomfortable situations. So if there's like a country singer, let me take that country singer, put them in a very awkward position, maybe a New Orleans, Cajun-based song, right? All these awkward things are really kind of mix it up a little bit.

And it's working really well. songs, I love all original songs. They're all interesting. It's all about it's not like a frosty to snowman, not that there's anything wrong with it. But it's about the time of year of what happens during the holidays when it gets towards the end of the years, people's relationships

either break up or get stronger. It's an intense time. The first of the year, they're going to take care of themselves. They're going to take care of all the emotional things that they destroy. All these things, all that goes out. That's what those songs are about. So it's not a Christmas record per se, right? But

That's the reason I mentioned that is that's different than working this way because I have the diversity to go in. I'll go on with you. Billy, I have an idea for a Christmas song. Let's write if you want to write together. Let's write it together. But here, this is where I wanted to live. Sure, yeah. That's exciting to me. And I will always kind of do that. But this is a little more challenged. Yeah. The other thing I've been surprised by, and I think you can only figure it out when you get there is, and I've seen this thing happen, using. my generation as an example. Gen X is half, maybe 55, 60% of the population of the generation

before and after. So Gen X, I think, might be the only generation that never has a president in the history of our country. I read that somewhere. Oh, really? That's interesting. Gen X doesn't have a lot of power. Gen X's one flash of power

was 90s grunge. 90 to 96. That was our kind of moment, and we all blew up and died. I was on the blew up one. I didn't die. But you did die. That's good. Thank God.

Jesus. I was wondering the first thing I was going to say, I was happy that we're still standing. That was the first thing I was going to tell you. Okay. Thank you. God bless. But this is kind of the point I'm trying to make to you collectively.

The thing that surprises me is, as we're rewriting the rules of rock and roll, partially because whatever's happened in the last 10 years has elongated the interest in what we are good at, even if it's just because of a song we did years ago. Correct. There's something resonant that's happening that's very different than it ever happened before. Understood. We all remember Shana, you know, was like looking back at the, you know, the greasers and the duwop and all that stuff.

And we've all had that moment where it's like, the 80s are in. And, you know, now people are talking to the 90s are in, whatever. But what I'm surprised by, and this is a shift that's really only happened in the last two years, there's something about perseverance that is for the first time in my life become more powerful. powerful than the catalog. That's, and which is my point. Okay, so we're on the same wavelength. We are. Here's what you just said for me, because I am a forward-thinking person. Like, I don't, I am right, I like to stay here, right, where I am.

But the next thing that I really like to do is go forward. I have, there is nothing about going backwards that is appealing to me. But that's what I'm saying. Right. Okay, so my point is, correct. I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest. Okay, so last thing.

Songs are always important. We know that. We live in nice houses because of songs. Yeah, we've got to have songs. But I'm telling you, for the first time in my lifetime, and I've watched rock pretty good for 50 years, somehow the people that have earned some sort of respect, organic respect maybe is the right word.

It's not about legend, it's not about pioneer. It's about something about, you know what, now that I look back, I realize that your voice and your voice and your voice has an authenticity that has lasted my life. And something about that voice back in the mix is more important to them than whether or not they like the song. Does that make sense the way you're saying it? I understand.

I understand that. So I would encourage you to at least think about it from the standpoint of you choosing to sing your song the way you want to sing it and I don't care whatever genre it is. That ultimately in this moment in time in this culture is a powerful statement to people of endurance and hope and my life isn't over just because I crossed some sort of meridian line. Correct. Because we all grew up with Hope I die before I get old. No question. Yeah, that's a good example. Now, over here, the money people are like, well, look at the stones and look at Fleetwood Mac.

That's where their brains go. Correct. My brain goes to, if I'm going to open the door and let all that in or even poke my head out the door, if I don't have something new to say, why am I bothering? Yeah, you have to be. You have to have something new to say. My problem is I have literally 150 songs written. We've got a lot of songs.

I mean, I have a lot to say always, but, you know, it's got to be, it's got to be, forward thinking of right now he's a maniac so i have there's no doubt in my mind that he will not get that you know but i will give him these words he will make it crazy like i want i just don't know if i'm willing to it's so much but we tour every year every year we're out every year even for just even if it's seven weeks whatever we still go out and i still adore performing i still love them and I see half of them are very interested in anything you want to give them. Like, give me anything. You could sing the phone book, do anything.

I don't care. And then there's the other group smaller that only want you to stay locked in time. I have no interest in this part. None. We never did. I mean, nobody really does. But I know it because I am a live performer. I watch them every day.

Yeah. So I'm like, well, if I give you a whole record of stuff that's, sounds like something you never heard before, what are you going to say about that? You know? And I mean, I personally actually don't care what they say about it, but the truth is, why would I spend that much time doing as much as it takes to create something from scratch? You know, you're going to take, this is a lot out of your life. Oh, no. That's what I'm saying. If the argument is, hey, I just, I don't care or I'm past that. But I'm saying if you still, like your husband is just as passionate as he ever was.

And that would be my argument. But it's why I'm right. I have a personal... But the fire, I guess it's, maybe I'm making too esoterical point, but the fire is what's attractive. Correct. Well, I have a personal challenge too, a personal challenge. Because I've always challenged myself with everything I've ever done.

Anything at all, it's always challenging myself. Yeah. I like to challenge myself and explain to people what I, I hate to use the word rock, rock and roll music, but to actually show what it could be, not what we know it to be, if you know what I mean. I do. I think, you know, the rap revolution, when that began, that's the real, that's the new rock music. That's where it is.

I made the same argument. And it's powerful. They did a better job there for 10 or 15 years of representing rock than the rock music. No question. Their lyrics, the power behind them, the whole, the attitude, just everything about it. Rock and roll people dropped that a long time ago. What were they thinking of? So there is

I would like to be that person that can help kind of not create, but kind of move that forward. I love writing. I love writing socks. I know you probably have some ADD and you, I have some ADD because that's what happens. I love writing.

I come up with words, but I don't like to write all the words. I'll come up with a title, a few lines, but melodies. I write melodies all day long. But then she writes words all right. But then she writes words, I write melodies, and that 80 deep thing charges. So I take the challenge. Yeah.

I'm all for the challenge. Mix it up, I mean. My problem with writing, with being the, what's the word, provocateur that I like to be, is that when you do it, you got a bunch of babies who don't want you really do. They want you to pretend you're doing it. Like you could be a pretend provocatory. Don't really do it.

So like when I do it and I do something and they get all their feathers ruffled, and everybody gets, I mean, I'm going like, where the fuck were you for the last 45 years? What did you actually think? Did you care too much about those people? We don't need to care about that. But it is my motivation for not doing it. Oh, that wouldn't stop me. Because I don't care.

I don't care. I don't care. No, okay. Not that I don't care. It's not relevant to me. to me. Okay. Okay. So for me to give that much energy and everything else, I'm always like, really? I don't... Best way I can explain it, and I think it's a good way to kind of put the bow

around it is. We could argue or conversate about every version of it, and we would never know which one of us was right or wrong. Yeah, there's no right or wrong right here. Outside of sort of general analytics, there's really no touchstone point anymore. And I think that what happens is it ends up being almost demotivating. Well, that's what she's feeling. That's what she's feeling. But see, I have a problem, too, because I'm thinking,

here we are like this. And I'm not Brian Wilson. But where's Brian Wilson now? How can he? Why isn't he surfacing? No, no, forget it. Let me stay where I'm at here. The next Brian Wilson or the original Brian Wilson?

No, the next one. I think that has everything to do with the way the music business is gone. Where's the evolution? They've created, sorry, I interrupted you. They've created a model. I know it's so big. Pop. Pop is the only master.

They'll pay their light bills with people like us. Correct. Pop is their master. Correct. I was using that as an example of his genius or what that was. Like they put California on the map. The Beach Boys, without the Beach Boys, California wouldn't exist like a house. If Pet Sounds Brian Wilson existed today, he'd be a hipster artist.

Probably. You see him saying? The two modes of the music business are crass commercialism. I don't care what I got to do. Kill my mother. Yeah, that's all. You ought to tune me to infinity, whatever. And then the hipster class, which is snobby and inward facing.

And if you don't have the right t-shirt, you're out. Yeah, yeah, understood. Which is my point. Anybody in between those doesn't have a country. Does exist. I think what I was getting at, though, with Brian Wilson, is like an evolution where it wouldn't be pop. It's just to his brilliance, no matter what. what it was,

why can't you recreate something, not pop, but something from that genius mind that he has. That's what I'm saying. Is there a motivation from him that way? Probably. Where does an aggressive I don't know?

Person, female, like me, where do I go now? What do I do? I am a finger pointing, yell at you the entire time we're doing a concert. I speak my mind. I have no, there are no boundaries for me and where am I at this day today? Where am I today? What do I do with that?

What do I do with what just happened? What do I do with that? I think if you show that same passion and music, you will find an audience that will follow you. Well, no, I understand that and my whole thing is, you know, my thing is to come out swing and my whole thing is like not to be quiet. That's myself. But that's rock and roll. That's the meaning of it. So sitting with you, you know, and we've talked plenty about how we got here, you two. But what's interesting to me is the level of vitality. Correct.

Oh, yeah. And I'm like, oh, now I understood what I was hearing on this record. It's here in front of me. That's the great luxury of interviewing great people like you. I get to feel the engine behind it all. Sure, of course. So the snarl in you is still there. Yeah, yeah.

No, but what I'm saying is... No, but I mean, yes, it is. That's my problem. My problem is there's nothing that I'm going to do right now, I am so snarly right now, I'm not cool, I am not cool. So I got all that right now, I am not cool. What am I going to do with that?

That is not going to be pretty, and I don't even see an atmosphere or a universe right now where this makes any sense, except all I'm going to do is turn everything crazy, and I'm like, well, I don't know if I'm like, I don't know if I really

want to do that. I'm, you know, I get that. I'm, you know, I get that. That's what I'm saying. If you're going to open your door. And what our house is like, it's not fun there, right now. My studio's fun.

It's not fun. We did a song the other day. It's fantastic. Because, you know, we do other stuff. Like, our friend is doing a musical version of Cisor Hands. And we just wrote a song for Cisor Hands called Beautiful Weirdos. And it's, I almost beat that out of him in the studio because he was, he, I said, did you like, did you go like this and pick every note?

to make me have to sing every crazy interval on earth because you just wanted to kill me. That's how- You're gonna sing what's written. That's fabulous. But I really hated him because I was like, this is what he always- See the old day, see me just say, okay.

I know, but I'm not that person. I'm like, I'm like, are you, I just wanna have a cup of coffee and drink a glass of wine. And now I have to do, I have to do pyrotechnics, and everything else that ends in an ICS for like. Don't you see the compliment? He believes you can do it, though. I know.

That's what I do. And you did it. I mean, you're doing it. This is what he did to me in the beginning. He tortured me. I guess that didn't work. Well, he didn't torture you enough because you're still here. Not enough.

That's exactly right. He did. He tortured me. He goes, no, it's not high enough. I think we're going to end on the torture. The torture's a good ed. He did. Thank you so much for talking.

It was awesome. Yeah, Billy is, this is great. Thank you. I'll have to get you in the studio. Come on. Come and hang. Oh, you guys. We'll throw something, darling.

I will get you that version. I will get you that version. Well, throw something. And if you decide to do anything, I'm going to credit you. Good. Well, look at air. That's good thing. Now you just made me insane.

I'm one of those guys, produced by, written by, conceived by. You know what mine is? Manjo by. Here's what I do. I do that, but then nobody knows it's me. Well, I just figured it out. God damn it.