The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Paul Stanley Pt. 1 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with KISS co-founder Paul Stanley, for Part 1 of a two part conversation that traces the 1998 Halloween “Psycho Circus” reunion at Dodger Stadium to the sold-out ��End of the Road” farewell at Madison Square Garden. Paul opens up about old rifts, the fresh spark Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer, brought to the band and how starring in Phantom of the Opera helped him to navigate his own hidden secrets. He also offers hard-won lessons in fitness, therapy, fatherhood, and resilience. https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Was it lingering resentments because of the way things had gone down in the past? Perhaps what bothered people before just bothered them again. And maybe they had a, shall I say, distorted or inaccurate sense of who they were. Everybody in the band was so important to creating it. Absolutely. You know, when you're in a car, only one person can drive. You know, everybody can be in the same car. but you can't have everybody's hands on the wheel

because ultimately people are pulling because they want to do different things. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to have you. I want to start with congratulations because I know it's the end of the road or the end of something, but 3,000 shows. If you look on the internet,

there's actually no, there's so much information about KISS online, but there's actually no perfect you guys played this many shows. I think it's about, I think it's between three and 3500. Some people say 2,900, but we'll go with the bigger number. Let's go with the bigger number. Bigger's always better. That's amazing, though.

Yeah. That's amazing. It really is. It's mind-boggling because I still can remember the four of us first coming together. Yeah. And all of a sudden thinking, ah, this is it. There was something sonically going on when the four of us played. virtuosos, virtuinos, you know. But the sound of what we were doing was so potent.

And I just found myself thinking, this is world-class. Yeah. It goes by fast, too, doesn't it? So fast, you know, I think when you're young and older people are saying to, you know, it goes by so fast, yeah, whatever. And then all of a sudden you go, wow, it really, it does go by fast. You know, I sometimes think of life being kind of like a moving sidewalk that kind of goes off at the end. I remember when everyone was in front of me.

Now everyone's behind me. So, yeah, it's very, very interesting that, yes, it does go by fast. And as it goes, you see that you're on a one-way street and it gets narrower and narrower. We'll get to that. So you've had such a rich musical and artistic life. It's hard to pick a spot. And because the original lineup years are so, in many ways, over-examined at this point, there's podcasts.

I mean, you can do deep dives on just about any period of the original band. But I wanted to start with sort of the psycho circus period because I think it feeds into some sort of narrative things that I'm sort of interested. I was there. I was there. Thank you. I'm glad you remember. I wasn't going to bring it up because sometimes people get mad when I put myself in the story.

But yeah, you guys had us open, and it was a great honor. Dodger Stadium, 1998 on Halloween, if I remember correctly. You do. Sold out, of course. Of course it was sold out. So I read a quote from you and correct me if it's wrong, but it was something like we made the psycho circus album with two band members and two lawyers, I think was the quote. That's pretty accurate. Yeah.

Because I side him in your interrupt you. No, please go ahead. So, because I was there when the night you guys officially re-nighted on stage. I mean, you'd done something for MTV or something, but there was Tiger Stadium. I was at that show. Yeah. It's a fantastic show. It's very emotional to be a fan in that, and of course in Detroit, you guys, your relationship, Detroit, as you know.

So, but yet here, you know, a couple years later, you know, there's already a little bit of a wobble in the thing. Obviously, if you're in that situation, I'm in those situations, too. You know, you're putting on your best face forward. But I was kind of curious, you know, here you are, the makeup's back on, the original bands back together. There's obviously a lot of interest and excitement, but by 98, it starts to get a little sort of straight. Can you kind of put me just in your mindset at that time? Unfortunately, the same problems just started to creep in. And in a perfect world, I had hoped that we could get back together.

everybody would learn their life lessons. Sorry, laughing because I'm in a band. Yeah. And we'll walk into the sunset together, making music. Yeah. That story doesn't exist. So, it was very stressful and disappointing, but more stressful, because for me, it's all about what goes on on stage.

You leave everything at the bottom of the stairs. you leave your problems. There have been times where people in the band might not be talking, but you get up on stage and hug and have a great time and make the most of that. Anything that happens beyond the stage is a bonus. So it was very stressful and not knowing how we're going to be night tonight because of people's indulgences. And that's not fun. Because I was at that inaugural show at Dodger Stadium, and I went out in the crowd and I watched the show and we had 3D glasses and there were circus, carnival rides.

It was very interesting. Obviously, it started with that, and I can almost hear Doc McGee somewhere in the ether there talking about it. But it obviously started with a big footprint. That's something you guys were really good at and you always ambitious and bold. did you feel the weight of the expectation or this thing isn't going to make it? Like at what point does it start to dawn on you that this is like not quite going the way it's supposed to? Is it? You know, how can I put it?

Things take such an incremental turn. I don't think most of the time things fall off a cliff. It's more like a... Yeah, it's a... Somebody once said to me, in terms of being able to tolerate other people. Somebody once said to me, you know, if you take a tree and go like that, it breaks.

But if you take it and move it a little over a period of time, you'll get it down to the ground. Yeah, yeah. And it'll still be, you know, still be functional. So it just became, sadly, the divide happened. And it wasn't like that when we first got back together. There was a sense, for me, there was a sense of anticipation and a joy in revisiting and coming back, you know, back together and bringing whatever we had done in the interim.

Yeah. But, and we had, you know, some of the guys going, I really f***ed up. I'll never do that again. I'm so grateful to be here. And truly was. the feeling and the sentiment. And over time, it became, you said you wouldn't do that again, you know, you're doing it. The resentments that I think were there in the beginning came back. Was it lingering resentments because of the way things had gone down in the past? Well, I think that perhaps what bothered people before just bothered them again. And then maybe they had a, shall I say, distorted or inaccurate sense of who they were.

Everybody in the band was so important to creating it. Absolutely. But, you know, when you're in a car, only one person can drive. You know, everybody can be in the same car. But you can't have everybody's hands on the wheel because ultimately people are pulling because they want to do different things. So it became politics again of unfortunately people wanting things sometimes because you wanted something else. And I do want to talk about some of the 70s times, but I'm very interested in this time.

So are you, because the nature of your, the word I use is Avatar, it may not be the right word, the star child, you know. But the nature of that character is you're having the best night of your life and you're taking fans on this journey. but, you know, there's a person behind that mask. Are you inwardly reflecting on what used to be? Are you very much in the moment? Are you a person who's comparative in terms of like, gosh, if we could just get back to the band that we used to be? When I'm on stage, I'm in the moment.

Yeah. And it's, there's nothing ever in my life that could take the place or compete with that. you know that to be in front of 20, 50, 100,000 people who are there to see you amid such an incredible amount of force and also gratitude and adulation and, you know, a positive response and feedback to something you created. Yeah. And that you believed in initially. So it's almost more like you're saying to your fellow bandmates like, don't you see what's happening?

we're so lucky to be here. It's just so blessed. And look at the, because it says the love for you guys when you did come back together, it was pretty strong. I mean, it was a 10 out of 10 off the street. And for me, the same. It was so exciting because, look, we can say life is short. But, you know, I reached a point where I thought,

you don't know when somebody's going to bite the bullet. You don't know when anybody's going to disappear. Let's do this. this while we still were here. We're here, yeah. And we did. So it was very exciting and also kind of tenuous

because it, you know, we were used to, we had been playing. Gene and I never stopped playing. Yeah, we were playing. So I think perhaps our chops were a little more sharpened and there was work to be done

because people's memories over time kind of glossed things over it we had to create the show people thought they saw not the show they actually saw yeah you guys had basically you were putting on almost like the idealized version of the destroyer tour or something right but actually wasn't the tour that was

if you look at photos from kiss alive or even kiss alive too. The lighting trust was fairly bare bones, but compared to everybody else, it was stunning. So we had to come back and raise the bar that would parallel today, you know, and take us that much bigger. And we had to be that much, we had to be who we were. And I think part of the the omnipotence, if you will, of the band has always been that we were ageless. And that's potent stuff. If you see a band 30 or 40 or 50 years on ago, they look the same. Well, we may not look the same this close up, but we can pull it off as a band.

And that takes work. So everybody was told that they had to go work out and we got trainers for everybody because we had to be how people remembered us. You don't want to go on on stage and have somebody, oh, Jesus, put a jacket on, you know. Well, one time my father called me and said they're calling you belly corgan because I was fat at the time. Yeah, no, I was always like to say no one likes a fat rock star. Yeah, you know, nobody wants to see a fat rock star in tights.

You know, it's not a pretty sight. And, you know, when the band first started, I was chunkier because I was a chubby kid growing up. And the whole thing of doing this in photos came because my face was big. I didn't know that. Yes, I was sucking my cheeks was all I was doing. So that tour comes to a conclusion. What's your mindset? Because the band sort of didn't really do much in 1999.

It was kind of an off year, which is how you end up doing Phantom of the Opera. And I want to talk about that. But what's your mindset when you get to the end of that tour? Well, that was the Psycho Circus tour. We had done the Alive 95, whatever it was. When we did Tiger Stadium, when we did Psycho Circus, we were Dodger Stadium. Yeah. So I'm saying at the end of that, sorry, the Psycho Circus Tour, yeah.

We were, once again, we were in this position of, we truly wanted to do an album with the four original guys. You know, I don't want to sound demeaning. I just a few days ago saw live video of us from the mid-70s. I mean, Peter played like an animal. I mean, he was just ferocious. Whether it would fit in another band didn't matter. It was great.

It was, you know, an ace was in his prime. So I can't take that away. We created, we created this. Yeah. But by the end of, by the time we were doing psychocircus, you know, we were, Gene and I in the studio. You know, Gene and me were in the studio. too, being kiss.

And, yeah, it was Gene, me, and lawyers on the phone. You know, it was, it wasn't what it should have been. Yeah, I'm just trying to get to your mindset, because I think one of the most interesting and maybe not explored enough parts of your creative life is you doing Phantom of the Opera. And I kind of really wanted to talk about Psycho Circus because I wanted to kind of set up the mindset of work.

your head was at when you did that because I think you were 47 years old when you did Phantom. Was I? Yeah. I think so. 1999 when you did it. 46% but I'm saying is to take on a challenge. We know the business of rock. Your band's back together and you're playing the biggest venues in the world. The money's flowing. Everybody loves you again. You know, it's like, and for you to kind of step off that train at that moment, I think is very interesting because you really committed to something that was way outside your your your I mean when you're world-class anything and then you decided to go jump into something completely different although it's it's adjacent isn't that what lights about well it is for people who have courage yeah I mean well the rewards are

immense well let's talk about that because I I find it really fascinating and um you know there's it's even hard to find any video of you performing some I saw some video came out the other day there's very little. Of course, you know, with the advent of video, you're bound to see yourself trip down the stairs on stage because that's what people are more excited by or drawn to. So I think there's one I saw where my voice cracked on a very important B. Well, I didn't do that every night. But of course that's the one that's everybody can see. You see, he sucked. You know, I don't like the pandering, and I grew to really dislike the unhealthiness of having people cater to you.

And, you know, I don't feel well tonight. My nail got torn. You know, theater's not like that. Eight shows a week. Yeah, you get your ass out on stage and no excuses, and you do it what you're supposed to. So it was refreshing for me and also kind of like reaffirming for me that that kind of pride in what you do exists. So it does connect there in that period of your life. It was like, gosh, it's wonderful to be surrounded by people who show up, shut up, and do their job to the best of their ability.

Because the competition in the theatrical world is fierce. Oh, it's fierce. Look, I was blessed. I had seen Phantom. I grew up in a family with a lot of classical music. First music I heard was... Are we Verdi? First, I remember going to the original Metropolitan Opera House for Tosca with Franco Correlli,

by far one of the greatest tenors of all time. Because there's a little bit of verity in your melodies. Well, Fuchini is. Verdi. Yeah. It's just got this beautiful romance to it. And I mean, Andrew Lloyd Weber very often, you know, takes little bits and pieces. So I grew up with classical music, Beethoven, Emperor Concerto, Schumann, Schubert, Mahler, you know, Mozart. But when I saw Phantom in London, I really had this kind of, same kind of epiphany that I did when I saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan.

God knows why. Look, when I saw the Beatles, I was a chubby little kid with a deformed ear, not very happy, not very popular, and I saw the Beatles, and I went, I can do that. It didn't mean I can be them. I understand there's a nerve there touching. I don't know what that means,

but I think I can do that. Now, when I saw Phantom, there was a scene in it. I was in London in the West End, and I kind of went, whoa, I get this. And I saw it many times after that, watching different actors portray it. And it's so fascinating because Michael Crawford set the template. and everyone after that, you still work within that framework. You can bring who you are to it and interpret it, but he created that. So did you get to someone, are you out looking for an opportunity like this, or they call you?

I always wanted, always wanted to do that. It was always in my mindset. Did you tell an agent, like, you know. About 10 years later, my agent, at the time, the time at CAA called me up and said, this is a little weird, but are you interested in theater? I'm like, yeah. Wow.

And he said, well, you have to go to New York in audition. And I was like, okay, you know, yeah, I don't want something handed to me so I can make a jackass of myself. So I said, well, what is it? He said, Phantom of the Opera. I said, book a ticket. And, well, I had to go to New York and do a full audition with blocking. and doing music of the night and doing...

How much... Did you get a teacher to walk you? No. You just went and... I just worked my butt off. There's... I had an experience earlier where I went into audition for something

and I had worked with an acting coach. And when I was auditioning, I suddenly realized that I was completely ill-equipped to do the audition. Ah, okay. And I said to myself, I'll never let that happen again. So I worked on it, knew what it could be, and went in an auditioned, and like American Idol, you're going to Hollywood. And it was running in Toronto at that point.

I mean, it had grossed over $500 million. So it was, you know, it was a massive, massive success. and I went into it. And initially, I was going to be the next to the last phantom before the show closed. Right. And they wound up buying out

the guy that was to come after me. Wow. And I closed the show. Yeah, you did over 100 performances like a baby, about 120 I read. And eight a week. How was that on your voice?

Because that's a... You know, it was easy. It's a little different than singing song after song, right? Yeah, but also you have, you're threading a needle. You know, there's no room for interpretation. Yes, you can interpret some of the physicality, but in terms of when music of the night comes,

everybody shuts up and you better, you better sing that the way they want to hear it. So it was, it was, something that I worked at. And when I was in Toronto, I worked with the former musical director just to navigate some areas that I was having a little problem. The last thing I wanted to do was a rock version of Bannon of the... Sherper, you know, and desecrate something that's iconic, turn into the Rocky Horror Show or something. So I wanted to do it the way it's meant to be done. Yeah.

But still retain who I was. And it was great because the musical director at the time said, you know, they hired you. Well, they hired me. Let's be honest, they hired me because I could probably sell tickets. But I also had to sing. There's something called stunt casting. And that's when they bring in people to the theater. Yeah, you see it like in Cabaret in New York.

Yeah. And I totally get it. You still have to do the job. and it actually, the cast, I mean, I had nothing but an amazing relationship because I respected them. We had an incredible time together, and I helped pay their salary. So it was an incredible experience for me to go to this gorgeous theater in Toronto, the Pantages at the time, that had been completely, renovated and was just breathtaking and see my name on the market and see these huge billboard photos of me, you know, in that gear.

It was one of the high points in my life. I read some stuff where you were talking about how you kind of had to learn how to do it, you know, because musical theater is its own languaging and stuff like that. And I'm not saying it was not great in the beginning, it was great by the end. But you talked about some sort of transition. And as you went along, you kind of found your feet in it. Yeah. But when you were having a night where it's like, you're like, okay, I'm just, maybe I'm projecting,

but this sense of feeling out of your depth, you know, I'm always interested in that part of your, in a weird way, as public a person as you've been, there's a lot of privacy in your, in your, you don't show a lot of yourself. Maybe you are more now. My choice. Right. But I'm saying is I'm still interested in, in that, that part of your spirit that sort of seems to bear down,

you know, like, in this case, you put yourself under a tough circumstance. I love, I love doing things. That's kind of what I'm after, yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember opening night. I was standing on the side of the stage, you know, in full makeup with my mask, with this amazing costume on, and I'm standing there calling, it's only one way out of here. And that's...

That way. That way. And, you know, there's something about doing things where you have a certain discomfort that really strengthens you and also allows you to know who you are. You can't know who you are unless you take chances. And then it becomes a matter of,

do you want to skate through it or do you want to really commit yourself? I don't do anything I don't commit myself to. It's, if you say you're going to do something, do it 100%. Yeah. So Phantom was eye-opening in so many ways because I didn't realize at the time

how I connected with that character because, well, he has this ghastly facial defrable I had an ear that got scrutiny and stared at and teased. And I separated myself from people and didn't know how to interact with people. And I didn't realize, my God, that's kind of me. That's what attracted me. I didn't even know that. And it was very eye-opening because I would get letters from people backstage.

backstage and I got a letter from a woman who was the president of a charity group called About Face that work with children with facial differences and she said I seemed to bring something to the character and she was so moved and this and that and somehow something I kept a secret my whole life I said well I have a micro show she didn't know that when she wrote you that letter and wow I never told it anybody. Yeah. I didn't even know, when I read your book when it came out, I didn't know that about you.

Yeah, I, that was my, that was a, I just got to tingle. That was my secret, my whole life was that I managed to cover it with hair. And, you know, what I found by doing Phantom and writing a book is that the less secrets you have, the freer you are. And the more you can put out there, and the more you can give to other people, you know, people going and speaking with kids and saying, you know, something, life's not always fair. And the playing field isn't even. And it's not level.

But you can find a great life. And I'm there to tell you, and by no means do I have the disabilities or challenges. Some of you have. But I'm here to tell you it can happen. And to meet with parents and go, you know, telling your kid that he's just like everyone else is, you know, there's tough love. I don't know that there is tough love. There's love and then there's tough. Yeah.

And when you tell your kid that he's just like everyone else, well, you're not like everyone else. Yeah. And I heard that. So it was cathartic for me to be able to share my. Can you explore that a little bit more because you're triggering something to me that reminds me of something this idea of

because I have a disabled brother and so I went through similar circumstances through him. It's like I'm trying to find the right question because it wasn't something I anticipated talking about but like I know you said tough love

but it's not quite tough love. It's like let's call it the beauty of the truth or something you see what I'm after? Yeah. Because you can speak? to it very I really believe though not intentional tough love is often guilt it's you telling somebody that they're okay because of your discomfort or your feeling that somehow you're

responsible for what's going on sure you know it's one thing for a parent to say to a kid you're like everybody else well the child knows they're not like everybody else yeah so who are you saying that for you or them. Yeah. So that was, that was eye-opening for me, your opening for me. And really the start of what led to writing a book, which was really, I was in this wonderfully fortunate position. Parents don't often get to tell their children their story.

And I found, wow, here, I can actually, I can write a a book that, sure, if there's a certain sense of patting myself on the back, so be it. George Orwell said that the autobiography is the most outrageous form of fiction. But when I wrote it, it gave me a chance to leave something for my children to understand what I had been through. And I never could have written that before I did Phantom. it was a journey of opening up and revealing myself and feeling comfortable enough to do it.

Could I have done it 20 years ago? No way. But as you become more accepting and comfortable with yourself, you can put things out there. And a lot of times what you get back is somebody going, me too. I'm like that. Yeah.

And that's a gift to both of you. So you come out of this incredible experience, and by all accounts, it was as an overall thing, it was well received. Of course, there's always the naysayers, but overall, it seemed like it was... It was very, you know, they didn't keep me there because they liked me. They kept me there because it was very successful. But again, yes, you have people who had never been in the theater, and I think that's wonderful. When I paint, I hope people come in who feel intimidated to go into a gallery. When I did Phantom, I hoped that people would come and see that theater can be better and more exciting than big blockbuster films.

Yeah. Yeah, it's weird because, let's call it, you know, we work in the rock end of the entertainment spectrum. But the fine arts, you know, they struggle with this idea that perfection is always connected. There are people who are so gifted and they have that ability to be so precise in their addiction and their ability in their, but they don't necessarily have that, that personal touch, the ability to reach across the footlights and touch the audience. Yeah, technical ability. Technical ability will never get you here. That's kind of what I'm saying. And I think we just announced recently, they're going to do seven nights in Chicago, of one of my albums with opera.

Whoa. And so before opera stars singing my songs, and then I'll sing some, too, with four orchestral, full choir. What do you think of that? I'm just blown away. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I'm like, yeah. So I hear you. But one of the parts of it that we've discussed behind the scenes

is that, you know, the classical arts in America are struggling to find the younger audience. And one of my things I keep saying is, you know, we have to create these bridges between these worlds because we're all speaking the same language. There's just notes and lyrics. I think the art world is to blame. I think the theater world is to blame

because there is a certain amount of elitism and there is a sense of, certainly, an art that you need somebody to tell you what good art is. Well, that's crazy. One thing I love about you is you've never had a problem telling the elites in this world where they can go. Well, I...

You know what I'm saying. I mean, I'm not trying to go for the gossip end of it. I think I'm just kind of going, snap out of it. You know, for my sake and other people, don't take away my joy in what I'm doing by telling me that I have to adhere to your set of rules. Well, even your Rock and Roll Hall of Fame speech, I think, kind of went right at that. But not maliciously. No, no.

always it was it was the right no we're getting inducted for the same things that we were kept out for you know it's it's you know the hypocrisy um so hypocrisy in the rock and roll business say it isn't so paul yeah so uh 2000 farewell tour sounds funny to say now yeah um it was short-sighted um because i like it because the beautiful thing about this is we can slow that part down a little So is it because you're looking around and you're saying, okay, this isn't going to last, so let's... No. Okay.

I'm going, I am miserable. I'm really miserable. Because it's not the fraternity, it's not musical. It's all of the above. Okay. The music was erratic at best. Some nights awful. there was no sense of camaraderie or joy in what we were doing.

Yeah. And you're still out there doing massive business. Yes. We're out there. And look, I don't care about bad reviews. But when I agree with them, that's Houston. You have a problem. You know, it's like you read something.

You go, they're right. You know, it's different when you go, they have their heads up. Yeah. or, you know, they want to attack what you're doing. But when you read things and go, this is right and I'm really unhappy. So it really felt like, let's put the horse down. Okay. Let's just shoot it.

And it went against everything that we had always believed. And that's that the band is bigger than us. And we survived people coming through and we're having different agendas or wanting different things out of the band. So why would this be any different? Right. But we felt like, okay, we were back in the personas and the iconic look that we created,

and now we have to put this to bed. And look, I remember after that farewell tour, I remember being literally at a car wash And somebody said to me, you know, oh, you know, I saw the farewell tour. It was amazing. Are you going to do the 35th anniversary tour? And I was like, we can come back? You still want us?

You know, we became Sally Fields. You like us. You know, it was like, wow, we were only gone because we decided to be gone. Yeah. Nobody wanted us. just threw it a little bit because it really, I'm less interested in, let's call it the wheels coming off the cart

as what came out of the wheels falling off the card. But it helps to set up the wheels falling off the cart. Because, okay, so was Doc McGee, your manager? Was Doc the manager at the time? Totally. Okay. Doc's been with us since the reunion. I love Docs. Yeah. Gene and I had taken care of everything up until then.

And then we saw it was just too big for us to do. Right. Okay. So, you know, you have this meeting. We're going to do this. We're going to do the fair roll tour. It's going to be big, here's the sets. You know what I mean? I can, I'm not in the room, but I can feel being in the room. Peter quits somewhere along the way. Ace maybe kind of makes it to the end, but not really. They both made it to the end of what we called, well, in America. Okay. It's the farewell tour. We did continue on after that, and Eric came in for some of that. And then be, but sorry, so is it, but so, because as a fan, when I hear farewell tour, I'm thinking, okay, this is it. Yeah. At what

point does it flip over and go, oh, we're just going to keep going. Well, that's kind of like when we talk about the end of the road tour and people snicker and go, oh, they went on forever. It's a big world, you know? It's a long road. Just because we played for you doesn't mean we're not going to play for them. Yeah. So, practically speaking, so the farewell tour, yeah, went on for quite a while.

We had a lot of farewells to say. Okay. So I'm just saying, I just was trying to understand if there was a mindset. switch somewhere along the way or I think before the farewell tour it was so it was becoming so so so difficult and so distasteful and when you would was there a point where I'm not trying to was there a band meeting where you sit down and say hey you know or you're at some you just trying to throw your hands up at some point say okay I just gonna I think honestly Doc

Gene and me kind of went, this is, this is, we can see the cliff. Yeah. You know, so this, this, let's plan this. Let's, let's plan this. And by Psycho Circus, we were, we, we knew the end was coming. Okay. And what we would, what we would.

So as it's happening, it's not surprising, Morris, like, okay, this is. No, it, you know, again, to have created something so wonderful with Peter and Hace and Gene, to see it just in such terrible shape and the acrimony and everything. It was so difficult. So at what point in your mind does it flip? Because it then goes into this other mode with Tommy on guitar and Eric on drums. And it seemed like you guys kind of...

caught this fresh wind of like, oh, we can be a professional band and we can go back to the consistency that we're after and just get on with the business of what we're doing. When did that sort of flip into being? It's just for me as a fan on the outside, it's like the farewell tour, okay? And then it's like, you guys didn't go away, which wasn't a bad thing. Yeah, no, no. The people that were glad that we went away were the ones who hated us, you know, And they were the ones who were angry, we came back.

But I wanted to, on reflection, I wanted to continue. I couldn't imagine it, quite honestly, but Doc was one of those people going, you can continue. Yeah. And what Tommy and Eric brought to the band was the same. spirit that Ace and Peter no longer had. So that's as important as the music. They also brought the music. Those guys, we could play on any night, any song we felt like. We adhered to a certain set list because the show was built almost like a theater presentation. Sure. So it had an arc, you know, and it started a certain way and went on.

But the, what they were bringing was so fortifying and so much like the biggest vitamin B-12 shot ever. Yes. It was that pride and joy in being in the band and also respecting the legacy. You know, they didn't come in to reinvent the wheel. Yeah, Eric. for example, he basically plays more like Peter

than how he would play himself. He can. He's obviously an incredibly skilled drummer. He's played with Brian May. He's played with a lot of people. And he's just a consummate drummer and turned into a terrific singer. What they brought to the band was what I always hoped.

And in the best way, I can say that when we would be on stage on any night, I would really think this is the band I always hoped for. Oh, interesting. Obviously, there were lots of different reactions to, you know, that what people arguing about them wearing the Ace and Peter makeup, and then the idea that you guys had bought the, you know, again, I call it the avatar, whatever, the characters. Walk me through the decision-making to, because like when Vinnie Vincent was in the band, she was like the anchor.

And that was a big mistake. The whole idea, you know, a snail boy, you know, it's like, you know, we spent this time creating these characters. Yes, each one of us came up with them, but we did it as a band. And then we spent years nurturing and building it, and now we're going to throw it away. Right. That's crazy. Right. That's crazy.

That's, hey, New Coke didn't do so well either. Yeah. You know. So, but I'm saying it, so there was an internal decision of like, let's continue to embrace because this is the better way to go. Totally. This is, this is kiss. This is what people universally recognize. You can go anywhere in the world and you could show somebody a picture and they say kiss.

They may not be able to tell you the names of everybody in the band, but that logo and those personas. When my son was, my son's three now. My son is nine now, but when he was three, I showed him a picture of you guys. And he said, who's that? And I said, that's kiss. And he's, anytime he sees you now, he's like, that's kiss. Right. I was in a clothing store in 75 on the Upper East Side called Jumpin' Jack Flash,

where I had really cool rock and roll British clothes and clothes that, uh, the Dombey's and everybody were, you know, kind of like ambiguously. Androgynous. Yeah, and... Androgynous and big platform shoes. And I remember they had a sticker that we've given them. I gave them a sticker of the Destroyer album cover. And it was on one of their display cases.

And a mom and a little boy walked by, and the little boy went, kiss. And it was like, this is. This is good. This is good. This is good. I like to talk a little personal. It's more of general because, again, I feel like you're coming out party as you,

the real person is kind of late in life, you know what I mean? As somebody who's followed you for 40 years now? No, almost 50 more. Yeah. Right? I started listening when I was about nine, right? So here we are almost 50 years later. So is it safe to say that you have a positive mindset in life?

Very, very. I can't ever think of you being kind of downer. Like, I'm notoriously a downer vibe, but, you know. I, you know, is that a, sorry, is that a public-facing personality or is that your natural personality? I'm a survivor. I'm somebody who's not a quitter. I'm somebody who relishes life. I was in New York yesterday and I'm walking down the street, just smiling, looking at people.

And I was looking at, you know, not that I'm decrepit, but I'm looking at some young people and thinking, it's your time. You know, this is your, this is your world. It's their romance in there. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm, I'm positive. I see, you know, I see the bulls, and I see, you know, the, the nasty side of life. But you manifest what you put out there. I didn't always think that.

I think when when you're kind and see the world in a positive light, the world becomes better. Are you, I get the feeling, but I'm asking, are you happy in your life? and you're, you seem, I follow in social media, you seem very happy in life. I am. I'm so, so blessed, and I wasn't always. Maybe one of the reasons I wasn't out there talking was because I wasn't that happy, you know, it's...

Are you talking personally or professionally, or you just didn't want to show that to the world? You know, my struggles weren't on stage. My struggles were off stage. Who am I? You know, we all come with a, a, a, beautiful set of matching luggage. Some of it we want to get rid of. But, yeah, life, life at this point. And for quite a while, I've been very content and happy. And I've got a wonderful family.

I've got a fantastic wife who has been with me when things were rough in the beginning. And that's really when you get to know who. you're with is when things are tough. That's how you find out who somebody is. So, and my children are just a blessing. And I think, just speaking for myself, you heal by raising children because you get to do right what you think was done wrong to you. Yeah. So, um, how were, how were your parents as parents? How were they? Yeah. It's easy to say they did the best they could. That's kind of like an interesting statement.

And I will say they did the best they could. But they came into the picture, completely ill-equipped, to be married and to be parents. So that being said, you know, they struggled. And that was my struggle, was not having real guidance or sense. that supported me or made me feel safe. Did they understand your sort of musical dream? I mean, at a deep level, you know, I mean, like, did they get it or? No, I don't think so.

I think they were, in some ways, consumed with their own unhappiness. And I think for quite a while, my dad equated or rationalized that my success was luck. Now, my dad said the same thing to me. But people who say that are the ones who failed because that's how you rationalize your own failure is to say somebody else was lucky. Yeah. And it took my dad into his 90s to finally come to embrace. And I was blessed the last 10 years of my dad's life because my dad never gave compliments.

My dad, you know, my dad didn't get compliments, so he wasn't going to give him. And by being not warm and not positive, you make your kid tougher. No, you don't. You know, my dad once said to me when Evan was very young, my oldest, he said, don't you give him too much love? I said, you can't give someone too much love. No way. You can only give them too little love.

Love makes children stronger. So I'm sure this isn't quite what you had in mind today. We're not... No, no, I'm interested. Because in preparing, you know, I have enough cursory knowledge as a fan that I could kind of just, we could just talk about a bunch of stuff. But I found myself asking a bunch of questions, and I have read your book, but I found myself asking a bunch of questions thinking there's not necessarily a lot of these things on the record.

And I'm not in a way that maybe sort of completes the picture. I'm happy to speak. you know, it's, again, it's, um, the more you put out there. Well, you're, you're one of the great American success stories. And I think, you know, especially in the, in the arts, people get focused on a record, a show, a thing, something you said in 1972, whatever. And they lose sight of the incredible journey. Right.

You know, you, for, for my generation, and of course, you know so many generations, so many musicians have my generation that really love and adore your band. You know, you guys have been, like, kind of like rock parents to us. You kind of pointed the way on a lot of things that were coming and set certain templates in bars for, and across as such a diverse array of artists. Because we were you. Well, that's always, you, to me, you always handsome,

but like, you know, I always think a schlubby gene, you know what I mean? There's that picture of Gene when he's like 18 with the fro. Yeah. It's kind of shot from below, and you think, think like, that's the demon, you know what I mean? But we, you know, perception becomes reality. Yeah. We created ourselves.

Oh, yeah. And became those people. Well, that's why punk rockers love Kiss, you see, because it really is that same ethos. Yeah. So, yeah, positive, am I a positive person? Totally. Was I always, no.

That's something I always was striving. for. You know, I think the blessing of success can sometimes be what it shows you it doesn't do. Success you may chase because you think it'll make you happy. When you find that it doesn't make you happy, you either put a gun in your mouth, a needle in your arm, or you roll up your sleeves and get your shriek together. And for me it was, yeah, I'm very successful. but, you know, I'm, I didn't get the trophy. It's, it's, and then you go, okay, what do I need to do? So that took a lot of time and a lot of effort.

And I guess it takes years for it to come to fruition. So at this stage in my life, for quite a bit of time, I can. Was there anything that gave you, I'm not saying a therapist or a book or, was Is there anything that you found your spiritual center in that you can think of? Hmm. Great question. Wow. I stumped you.

Yes. Yeah, for somebody who can just, well, I think one of the beauties of therapy is to learn that you're not that different than everyone else. I think we all tend to see ourselves as, I wish I could be like him or I wish I could be like him. And then you realize, you know, that he's carrying the same load you are. And I think that that's part of it is becoming comfortable with who you are, good and bad, and not being too tough on yourself, but at the same time,

I think we owe it to ourselves. to become the best people we can be. Yeah. Okay. We're towards the end of part one. Tell me if you think this is fair. So in my mind, your musical life breaks into four eras. There's the original, I call it the OG lineup.

Make-up off, kiss, the reunion kiss, and then this fourth era. But I don't really have a good name for it. Like, that's called it the post-2002 to recent times. The phoenix. Yeah. I like that. The phoenix rises. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you really caught a wind in your sails that was sort of surprising. Interesting. You know, people would say, you look so happy on stage. You're smiling all the time. It's like, I am. You know, yes. It was joyous.

It's like a big party. I mean, I saw you guys probably seven, eight times in those 2002 to 2000 breakup. Yeah. Finally break up. you're not really broken up, but, you know, I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, but was, sorry, was it, was it because, sorry, was it because you, you and jean found that you could keep this, the core of this thing going without the other two guys? Because I certainly know what it feels like when people put on me, you can't have the band without these other people. And sometimes you turn and say, yeah, but the other people don't give it yet. Like, what do you want me to, how do you want me to navigate that?

Well, yeah, people will tend to go, oh, you should have this person. Well, you just see a facade. You see a photo or you hear a song, but you're clueless what's going on behind the scenes or what that person, the havoc that that person, you know. So I feel like we've been in the. the same room a couple times. So it's interesting. So it's very interesting that, oh, you know, I used to say things like, you know, if Mickey

Mantle joined the Yankees again, he wouldn't be Mickey Mantle that you remember. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I think people yearn for something. Because, you know, you grew up here in the Hoos saying, hope I die before I get old. And they meant it. but then they became wiser. And then they could do Bob O'Reilly. Are you, as a general point,

are you surprised by the longevity of rock music with, you know, you have the Eagles playing the dome and the sphere in Vegas, you know, are you surprised by the longevity of... I think it speaks to the validity of the music. When Frankie Avalon or, well, Bobby Darren was a... a credible talent. But when the Frankie Avalon's and the Fabians and the Bobby Rydell's,

they were interchangeable. And when you got tired of this one, we have another one. And it wasn't about the music. It was about the teen idol. I see. And with music over time, the music became the soundtrack

of your life, as opposed to, oh, Fabian is so cute. I see. I see. So once you found somebody or an author of, you know, once you found a literary author, once you found somebody you liked, you could rule every book, yeah. Yeah, you could, you could follow your life with theirs. But isn't it interesting that the music business, you know, having, let's say, if the music business basically starts with Elvis and 56, that's not fair, but it's always the

easiest plain line, okay, so 56 is Elvis. How vastly, how greatly, how greatly, you know, how, and vastly they underestimated the true value of bands and their music as a business thing. Yeah, but at that point, still the bands or the vocal groups were just vehicles for a song or songwriter. Sure. So. But imagine, sorry to interrupt, but if they knew, if they knew in 1975 what Kiss was going to be worth as a brand, I mean, think about it. You guys were standing there in plain sight, you know, whether you're in Casablan or whatever. You're standing right there and nobody has the vision to think the real money in this outfit isn't whether Christine 16 is a hit or, you know, Love Gun or whatever.

The real value is in this, this, what we would call the brand now. Yes. But brand recognition didn't exist beyond really the Beatles in terms. terms of groups. As great as the stones were, it was a different, it didn't follow the same pattern as the Beatles, which allowed you to like the band and then find your face. Is it true you guys kind of in some ways built the characters on the Beatles? Is that true? Is that a mythological thing? It's mythological, but it's logical. Yeah. It makes sense. Yes, we created a band with four individuals who were different enough,

they wanted to be in the club. When I saw the Beatles, wow, I'd like to be friends with those guys. So, just to wrap up, part one of our fantastic interview here, you're standing on stage, it's the end of the road. We've actually come to the end of the road. You're back where he started. Did you get what you wanted, and what did you want

when you started? Great question. I did get what I wanted. You know, the curtain came down on that period. And to be able to stand at Madison Square Garden where you saw Steve Marriott and Grand Funk, whoever else you saw in there. And to know I drove people in my cab to see Elvis Presley. And then by coheny, incidents outside my dressing room is a photo of Elvis from that show. But did I get what I wanted

so far beyond it? I got a life. I didn't get five years. I hoped for five years. That's what the lifespan of a band was supposed to be. So to build my life and my journey and what I've learned as a person and what I've experienced is a musician, a dad, a theater performer, an artist, everything else. Yeah, it's something, it's been the springboard. It was up to me to maximize it and decide what it would avail me and what I would take. But yeah, it gave me a amazing opportunities. Then it was up to me to realize those opportunities. You know, if you're like this, you don't see the whole world and all the things that you could do. And that's really for me what life is about is grabbing those moments to define who I am.

And it's very, very gratifying when I, when I, when I, when I, when I, when I, when I, leave this world, I leave behind some amazing children who are better versions of me and who I live through. So that's what makes you really timeless and makes you invincible is the fact that you live on.