The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Rick Springfield | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

Billy Corgan welcomes Grammy‑winner Rick Springfield for an unfiltered tour through five decades of reinvention: the bubble‑gum‑pink days in the Aussie psych outfit Zoot to Rick’s audacious spin on “Eleanor Rigby,” the labyrinth of visa nightmares and fine‑print contracts that nearly derailed him, his detour into acting that stretched from The Six Million Dollar Man cameos to his star‑making turn as Dr. Noah Drake on General Hospital. Springfield also recounts the marathon climb of “Jessie’s Girl,” the Working Class Dog era, and the brutal mental‑health reset that saved his career and his life. If you or a loved one are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please call or text the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988. You can also text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor. These services are free, confidential, and available 24/7 Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We've gotten a lot of fights just because, well, we were cute and we wore pink. So that's all you needed. You're aware, like, this moment doesn't last. No. I was very aware. And I could... It's not like you just get off a train and, like, hey, I'll get back on this train. And you know that train's going to be long gone on the track.

And, by the way, and I don't know if you were... There's also the predatory part of the music business, but they don't care what you're going through. You know, go talk to this radio guy, go do this interview, because they need you to keep. Yeah. they needed to keep producing. I want to talk about Zoot. How do I not know about Zoot? I went on my Zoot Deep dive,

and I was shocked. Because I love kind of psychedelic rock, and I'm listening. I'm like, however I've never heard of Zoot, it was really good. Yeah, it was a teen band that I joined after they'd had like some pop hits, you know. And then Led Zethlin was on the horizon.

And because I'm a guitar player, I said, you know, dude, we got to change this thing. Do you still have the white S.G? I do. I do. I do. That guitar sounds good. It's amazing. I use that on, I still use it. Really? Yeah, I bought, that was my first good guitar because usually, you know, when you're young and you want to trade up, get a better guitar, you've got to sell the one you have, right? Yeah.

But that one was the first American guitar I had. I grew up in Australia and England, but when I was looking for guitars, I was in Australia, and you couldn't get Gibson offender. It was just a... What was the common brand in Australia then? We had the German ones, Hoffner.

We had... Framus? Framus. My first guitar was a Framus. Yes. Framus Hollywood. So, yeah, so I... You know, I'm doing my research on you,

and I see this is the band Zoot. And it was like, think, think, pink, think Zoot. Yeah, that was a... teen thing. And you guys all wore pink, right? Yeah, it was horrible, dude. Now, at some point, you burned the pink outfits on television. Is that true? You have dive deep. Yeah, it was, I couldn't find footage of the burning of the pink outfits. Yeah, it was, uh, uh, we got under so many fights backstage, because there was no security back in the 60s, you know. So people just wander back and just start swinging, you know, and we, um, yeah, I said, we've got to get

rid of the pink. So what we'll do is we'll take a photo of us naked looking over our shoulders, but we'll burn it. So, you know, I'd have original pink suits, you know, high contrast it, so you can't really see. Of course, they printed it, you know, a full color. And my mom went, oh, my God, Richard. But it was a, it was a good transition, you know. Yeah. Shocker. Cool story. So I was texting today with Sean Lennon, dropping a name, but I was texting with him I said I was going to interview you, and I was talking about Zoot. And I said, he was in this really cool band that I've never heard of. And I said, oh, by the way, they covered Eleanor Rigby.

And like five minutes later, he's made, this is great. That is so wild. You guys, really good band. I'm shocked because I'm a bit of a, you know, like 60 snob. I like a lot of that music. So the fact that I never heard the band was shocking to me. Yeah, we, we, uh, We had some interest over here from EMI,

but we had a manager that was scared to lose us, so he said, you're not out of your contract, you can't sign. So it was a, they call it like a super group in reverse because I came over here and had a career. The bass player formed a little river band. The singer went on to become a big TV star in Australia. So we kind of went out different directions and did other things when we'd been given a lot of shit because of,

especially to the pink thing. But I can't, I arrange this version of Elner Rigby thinking, how would Hendricks play Elner Rigby, you know? Yeah, because when it goes to the other part, it goes to this kind of weird, almost dissonant kind of riff. Yeah, I do, do. Which I'd never heard Black Sabbath at that point. And a couple of my band members have heard it.

And I said, it's very Black Sabbath. And I'd never heard Black Sabbath at that point. But it is the devil's interval, you know, E.B. Black Sabbath. And, yeah, so I arranged. this thing just for us to play live because I wanted something to really pump some bit. And it was, they started playing their live version and became a hit on the radio. And it was so stuff that would never happen now.

So, you know, it's hard sometimes. And I unfortunately, I haven't read your book yet. I really want to read your book. I've been reading research. I've made a lot of money off of being dark. So dark's not a problem over here. But the reason I'm asking is because I'm a little unclear on the order. Did somebody start seeing that you had a solo career opportunity on your own,

or did that come after the band broke up? What was that progression? Yeah, Zoot was, we broke up in 70, and I had this, I was going to join another band. I always saw myself as a guitar player in a band. I loved playing guitar, and I didn't really think I had much of a voice, and I'd started writing in Zoot, and they were recording my songs, so I was very interested in writing. but there was this one woman who was a TV,

sorry, a magazine writer, and she was very hot on me being a solo artist, so she kept pushing me and pushing me. And I finally, I've got a song here, I'll record it, and it became a hit. And then I started thinking about, it called Speak to the Sky. Yeah, it's a country kind of, you know.

Yeah, but it was that kind of time, Mungo Jerry. Yeah, exactly. It was absolutely, we were doing heavy. We were doing heavy stuff in the Zoot by that. And my mom, God bless her, said, once you? What did you write a nice song, Richard? So I wrote that, and my dad had gotten very sick at that point. And that was kind of a song to him, you know, about praying that things are okay.

Back to, you know, when we all believed and all that, I guess. Hopefully we still believe. Yeah. So you end up doing a record in London? I got a deal with, actually, I was trying to get to America. And it was so freaking hard. I couldn't get in. They wouldn't let me in, right?

I'm just writing myself. And then I said, well, maybe I'll go to Canada and sneak over the border. And they wouldn't take me. So I said, maybe I'll go to Mexico and sneak over the border that way. And I couldn't get in. And finally, there was this guy whose records I used to buy when I was a kid, an Australian artist called Robbie G, had hooked up with Steve Bender, who was the director of the Elvis Presley comeback special.

Okay. And Steve saw a photo on me and her. some songs and said let's bring this guy over so it was again manifestation i wanted to i used to see america in the clouds you know and yeah i want to go to america want to be in america and um so steed brought me over and uh got a record deal was you know the 70s to sign anybody got a record went straight to london to trident studios and cut of a record my first solo record with del newman who'd done all the strings for cat stevens and uh it was and robin jeffrey cable actually who had been Elton's guy, Mad Men Across the Water,

all the first Elton stuff had been Robin Jeffrey Cable engineering. He had a terrible car accident and woken up and didn't know who he was. And they said, yeah, you've got the number one album, Mad Men Across the Water. And he said, who's Elton John? And so he was recuperating brain damage and everything, came to Trident and recorded my album with me and was brilliant. I mean, amazing sounds. Yeah, the tones on the really,

record are really good for a first record. Yeah, yeah. Especially back then. Yeah, he was- But you had a lot to do with that, right? I mean, I'm- Sonically, absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

But I became very good friends with him and he came over here and a lost touch with him, but he was a very troubled guy because of that. Yeah. Because he'd had so much, you know, and then this, it had all gone away. Yeah, I saw some crazy story where there were twin brothers and one lost his memory. And, you know, it was like a similar story where he didn't know who he was. And the guy was like, I'm your twin brother. And I was like, I don't know who you are.

Yeah, stuff started to come back, but not, you know, he always had something there. Lovely die, though. Yeah. So how do you end up in America from that doing a record for, was Columbia? Well, Steve was based here. Steve Binder was based here. And, of course, being, you know, their company was based here. So I went to London to record and came back and just had a two-year battle trying to stay in the country.

that's where I met Elvis actually was on a plane going back to Australia to renew my visa for the 40th time because they wouldn't give me a green card. We used to take all these magazine articles to the to be consulate. Yeah, and they go, no. So I'm on the plane going back to Australia to renew a visa. And Elvis was there sitting in the plane. It's a plane soft to Hawaii. And before the plane landed, now when you get on a celebrity's like got a hoodie on a glass

or sitting like this, he came back and signed autographs and took photos with everybody. I was in the back of the bus, of course, at that point. And I said, you know, I said, yeah, Steve manages me because he had a great relationship with Steve over the special. Yeah. And Steve had been very encouraging and said, you can do this.

You know, Colonel wanted him to be. to be a Christmas special with an ugly sweater and just horrible shit. And Steve, and the colonel was very angry with Steve for trying to, he felt like he was trying to get Elvis away. Anybody appoint Elvis in the wrong direction as far as. So I had a little conversation with him, which was great. And I hadn't been a fan at that point. I wish I'd taken a photo, you know, because I've seen people from that flight because I already had this blue suit on. I recognized the look.

They took photos with him, but I had a girlfriend. in Australia at the time. So I just said, you just signed this autograph for my girlfriend. He did, and of course, customs stole it

on the way through Australian customs. Bastards. I once had a run with Australian customs because I had forgotten that I had some broccoli in my back.

Broccoli is, you can't have broccoli in Australia. The woman said, I can't do an Australian accent to save my life, but she said, you understand this is a very

serious offense. You could be fined up to 300 American dollars. I said, it's broccoli. Sorry, Mike. Exactly. Yeah. You can't bring that in.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It sounded very much like that. So you do the second album, your second album, which is Comic Book Heroes. Cool album. I was listening to some of it today. It didn't quite do what they wanted it to do. Is that accurate?

It was the only good review, I think, I've ever gotten in Rolling Stone. They said, A friend of Elvis. Yes. It said, sounds like Teenage David Bowie, they said, was the review of the album, which I, you know, whatever, but I mean, everyone's got, you know, the opinion. It did have

a little bit of a kind of a glam. Yeah, well, I was very into Bowie. I was very into T-Rex and all Slade and all English bands. I missed kind of the what was America, was it like, was that getting to the Poco stuff? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I missed that.

completely. Southern, but that's, I don't know what thing. I always called it cocaine rock, you know? It just sounded like a lot of people doing a lot of cocaine.

Yes. And they had lost their ears and everything was kind of dull and super mellow. And this is an insider joke, but you know, it was very what's the board? It's not Neve, it's the API. A lot of API going on.

See? I knew you'd get that joke because you're a studio nerd like me. That's a very end joke. Yeah, right. So, yeah, so, you know, and you know, we're all aware of how people perceive us, you know, I, of course, when you burst out of the world with your success, you know, that's where you begin in most

Americans. But, you know, this whole kind of rich musical thing. And I knew some of that, but I was listening to it. Obviously, no one I was going to talk to you. And it's like, it's very interesting because it's like, if that was your story, you know what I mean? Like, people be like, oh, check out this guy who, right. You know what I mean? You'd be like something that the indie writers. The cult thing. Yeah, yeah.

So is that, is, I'm trying to find the right question. Well, what was your, what was your aspiration at that time? I thought the whole comic book thing was really hip and avant-garde and it was viewed as very teen, you know, the drawings and everything. But the thing is I'd been, Stephen and Robbie, because I'd come over here and the teen magazines had glommed on to me, right? And I'd never seen a teen magazine. In Australia, there was one magazine called GoSet, and that was it. There was nothing that catered to the teen. And I came over here, I said, wow, I'm doing a lot of interviews with all these people and talking about my music and why I'm over here.

and these stories had to come out like, is Rick Springfield too tall to love? Well, the answer is yes. Certainly from a 14-year-old that they were aiming at, you know. So you're saying you walked into a business model that you weren't aiming at. And I had no concept of it. What was the business model you were aiming at? I was a singer-songwriter. Did you want to be like an Elton John type, or did you want to be a rocker type?

or did you want to be a rocker type? Or you were just trying to figure out who you were? Yeah, I was a guitar. I'm a guitar player. And I always fronted with the guitar. And that was, it was, I was still kind of caught up. I mean, the kind of the softer rock, like T-Rex and that kind of thing, was what I was aiming at.

I kind of left the Zeppelin stuff behind with the Zoot, and I was focusing on kind of more poppy stuff. I thought that was my, you know, just what I, I mean, you write what you feel. You know, I only ever once wrote a disco song because I thought I should, you know, and it was horrible. So, but you write just what you feel, and that was what I was feeling at the time. And the weird thing is, it didn't do very well, but that ended up getting me the record deal with RCA that started, you know, my career was a working class dog album. The guy, Ed did Joy. I went to meet him after I did turn down by pretty much every company in America.

And he said, I really like comic book heroes. I went, what? Say what? Where did that come from? And so he signed me based on that. Okay, so at the end of the day... It was a positive thing. Yeah, even though it didn't sort of sequentially line up the way you want it.

Yeah. So you're in America now, and I know it's not this simple, but suddenly there's, then it's you're acting. Can you, can you explain to me how you, because I totally get up to the point of like, I'm trying to make it, and I'm trying to figure out who I am, and the way the music business treats people like us

and that whole thing. But that's suddenly like, you're on $6 million man. Yeah. Was that because you just needed money, or somebody picked you out of a lineup? No, it was, my brother had been an actor in Australia.

Okay. And there was one TV show, and he was so good, he'd been on about four times. And as a younger brother, you're kind of going, I could do that. So I was between record deals, and I was, I'd been poor, you know, pretty much continually since I'd been over here. And I left Steve and Robbie because they kept pushing in this teen direction.

And I had a girlfriend at the time who was saying, you know, that's not who you are. You've got to drop them. So I left them and Robbie sued me for $250, $2.50,000 a quarter of a million dollars, $250,000. What was the basis of the suit? That they'd put money into it and I'd kind of just walked away. Steve was awesome. Steve just said. Was that spiritually true or financially true?

It was, they'd put some money in for sure. But they'd also taken any advance I'd had. I never saw any money. It was just, you know, They pay the rent, stuff like that. The old school thing where they give you a salary. Yeah, exactly. So I didn't know how much I got to signing with Columbia.

I didn't know how much I got for signing with capital. I was signed all the contracts totally without a lawyer in Australia. Clueless. Yeah. But that's kind of how I'm not defending, but that's kind of how the business was back then. You're lucky to be here. We got those speeches in the 90s. You're lucky to be here.

Yeah. You know, we can easily replace you. Yeah. Exactly. And I was very lucky to be here because it'd been a tough journey trying to get here. Yeah. Everyone has been going to England from Australia because it's a Commonwealth country and you can get in. It was very difficult to get in America. Wow.

Yeah, so I'm pulling money out of my piggy bank to go buy a Swanson's Happy Meal and Robbie Jean Sue me for a quarter of a million dollars. That you don't have. And so it was shut things down for quite a while. Oh, because you were contractually kind of locked up. Yeah, he wouldn't let me, I couldn't tour. I couldn't. So that explains why you're like, I need another gig. Yeah.

Okay. And I met his wife, his ex-wife, walking just down Hollywood Boulevard, and she said, why don't you come to acting class? I started going to acting class, and I loved it. I got lucky with a couple of shows, and I started to make money, you know, enough to kind of for rent and food. I did skip over one small thing that I have to go back to. this is jog your memory. Do you believe you believe in magic? Oh, geez.

I believe that I do. Yes, I can see. I believe that it's magic. If you're missing is magic, your love will shine through. Okay. If there's one thing, but I like this song. I wouldn't be doing this too few. I didn't think this is a really cool song.

If there's one thing that the world needs, it's a magic singing song. And I'll teach it to the whole world and make them sing along. Love is magic. so easy. It's if it's not, and it's not hard to do, because everybody wants somebody to give a little magic to. Oh, Jesus hurts. That's a good, that's a good song. Now, you did this cartoon. Yeah, it was another, I had a lot of kind of weird side steps in my career at the beginning. And because I'd been on all these teen magazines, so that was part of them trying to, yeah, ABC went to all the team magazines and said, who was, in 1973, he said, who's going to be the next David Cassidy?

they all said me, which, thank God, it didn't happen. It would have been a very short career. I was actually up for it to replace David Cassidy and the Partridge family at one point, which is very strange. And thankfully, that didn't happen either. So they said, and we got together, it was great, we got together with Disney artists from Fantasia, and they started talking about yellow submarine,

and let's do something really different than you write a song for every episode. And after it got through the ABC mill, it was just another Xerox piece of that was already on, you know, with the same funny voices and the same storyline. And I was kind of locked into it. And I enjoyed writing the songs. Songs are good. I wanted them to be real. It was a kid show, really. What was the name of a show again?

I should write down. Mission Magic. Mission Magic, yeah. And there is an album if you go like on the streaming system. You don't like the album. It's a DVD, too. Is there? Yeah.

Are you starring? in the series? They drew me, and I did, it's my old accent, so I'm talking like this, you know, Miss Tickle was the woman who would get me, I was in this magic land, right, and Miss Tickle would look through this mirror with all those students, and they'd come through, and I'd help them with the bad guy, as you do, yeah. Well, absolute garbage, but it was, I mean, actually, Quentin Tarantino came up to me in a party, said, I loved Mission Magic. See? You never know who you're touching.

But he was probably, that's probably why he's so what, six years old. So, six million dollar man, hardy boys, Nancy Drew, Wonder Woman. Twice. The early version of Battlestar Galactic was called so different. Rockford Files. It's kind of not a bad resume. No, there were some good shows. There was a lot of crap.

But the scripts now are so wonderful for TV. And then they were just, he just knew they were going to be bad. You know, there was the same stories. Very predictable. But I was just feeling excited to work. Like, you know, you're in this cool band. You go to England, you make a pretty cool record. You come to America, you make another cool record.

And then you do the Mission Magic thing, which I kind of got. The songs are good. And then suddenly it's like, he's a TV actor. It was like, it's a little bit like, uh, huh? Huh? Yeah. Yeah. So it makes sense.

So how did you eventually extricate yourself out of the contractual? He finally settled. Robbie finally settled. Luckily, it was just before working class dog, which had, you know, Jesse's girl. So you were stuck in that thing for that long? Was that four years? Yeah, it was longer than that, actually.

And he said, I don't think there's, his, he had 100% of my writing. Right. You don't own any of that stuff then? No, I do now. Oh, you got it all back. Because he came to me and said, it was about to end, but the album was going to come out, and all those songs would have been 100% hit.

So he came to me and said, I don't hear any hits on this record. So how about I give you 50% of it all back, and we go on for another year and a half or two years or something. I said, yeah. So I ended up with half of what I should have had a whole lot, but he could have had all of it. Yeah.

But I ended up with it. it all after later on anyway but you know did you have to fight to get it back yeah a little bit but but a lot of it was uh had run out you know one of those yeah and you know you grew uh but it was uh it was just very serendipitous you know because uh well that's 1981 is an interesting year for you was uh you're on general hospital interesting side set again which by the way i was also watching which is i there was a girl in my school that I had the Hots for. And she was a fan of the show.

She was a fan of the show. So it was a way to get in good graces with her. I started watching the show because I'd have something to talk to her about. Oh, my God. Did you get hooked or not? No, no, no. She eventually, she did work at a chocolate shop. So the one advantage was I got a lot of free chocolate, but no, I never got anything more than the chocolate.

So General Hospital. That age, you probably won wood. Your album, Ricking Class Dog, comes out. Your song goes number one. We all know the song. It's been stuck in my head all morning because of the minute you listen to it, it's like it doesn't leave. I saw the thing reference to it.

It said one of the slowest climbs to a number one song ever. It was the fifth biggest song in all of 1981, and you won the Grammy for Best Male Rock Performance. It's quite a year. Yeah, it was. It was a big surprise. I signed onto the show because RCA, I'd finish the record, and RCA didn't know what to do with it, because ballads and disco were still on the radio.

So just because I love to pull these things apart a little bit because it's like, like everybody watching knows the song, right? And it's like the Hollywood movie thing. Nobody believes, but we all know how the movie ends. It's a happy ending in this regard. So nobody hears that that that's, going to be a hit song. Like nobody but nobody. No, Keith Olson was the first one to point. Well, actually, Joe Gottfried, who owns Sound City. I was doing the album with

producing myself with Bill Dresser. And Joe, who owns Sound City, went to Keith Olson, who'd, you know, he'd done foreigner, he'd done Fleetwood Mac, he'd done that Benatar. Big producer. And he said, would you do two songs with Springfield for this album? And Keith had, on my first album, had been an engineer, and his job was to cut out all the clicks for the drop-ins on my first album. Because in the old days when you would punch in, you had a little bit of a click on the track, right?

Yeah, and he cut out all the clicks on that album from all the punches. So we kind of knew each other from then. But he said, yeah, I'll do it. Let me hear the demo. So I've always done real extensive demos, back with the Tiac 30340, you know, and I had cushions for drums and an old bass and I plugged straight in.

The original pig nose, the matter of fact, the one they hand-made, and then for a voice Oberheim. And I did all my, you know, bounce around and do bathrooms and all that shit. So I took my demos over to Keith, and he's listening. And I played Jesse.

I just thought it was another. a song, they go, that's the one. And it had a big long solo in it, because it was still coming out of the 70s, you know, where it was solo, saw him, playing a solo on it, and he's going. Cut that sucker. But it's amazing that he heard that. Yeah, he did.

And it was, you listen to demo, and it's pretty much the song. Yeah. It's all the parts of there and everything, but that, and then he brought in Sammy Hayer a song, I've done everything for you. And I'm, oh, dude, there's more songs. I was very, I was very confident of this record. I felt like I'd hit something, three-minute songs.

You were right. Yeah. But, you know, it worked out. I've done everything worked out. It was a hit, too. Yeah. But, yeah, Keith was the first one to, and he said, you don't need General Hospital.

I said, I'm going to take this show, because I've had three failed albums. You know, I don't know what's going to happen. He said, you don't. It's a good album. You don't need to do General Hospital. I said, there won't be any cross. You know, they're all ladies, watch the show.

They won't know there's even a record out. But I was watching that. No, then it blew up. I thought it was soap opera. I thought only blue-haired ladies I didn't know. And it became the number one show in America. And Gloria Monti, who hired me for the show, came up six weeks later and said, I hear you're also a singer.

and I am not singing on this show. I've already, you know, oh, thank you. Your tears, yeah. I've already gotten enough crap, you know, because they used to have AOR stations here, and they played Jesse's girl, because it was, you know, it was one of the first guitar-based songs

coming out of disco and ballads, you know. There was Pat Benatar, and there was, they were playing ACDC on K-Rock, but there wasn't a lot of guitar, you know, there was a cars, but there wasn't a lot of guitar-based stuff, and they didn't know what to do in it, and they kept holding it,

and only, which is why I took general hospital, because I thought, ah, man, it's going to be another failed, you know, project. Yeah, so it worked out. Crazy. Yeah, because, you know, I remember when that song first came on the radio, and I liked it a lot, and I don't normally like music like that. And I was, even when I was a teen, I was a bit of a rock stop. I was listening to Sabbath and Queen.

Sure. That's very pop, although it's guitar-based. But I remember thinking like, oh, this is cool because it's like what I like about guitar rock, and I know that it's pop, but it doesn't feel like lame in a sell-out. It had the right combination of factors. Yeah, it does. And that's why I think it's lasted. Yeah, it holds up very well as a song and a lot of musicians like that, which is...

Yeah. I think if I'd done it, it probably would have had heavier guitar, but I think where the guitar sits is great. Well, that's that time, you know, a lot of those records were the cleaner guitar. Yeah. So, okay, so now you're an overnight sensation, right? You got a number one song, you're on this massive TV show. Like, where does that all go?

And by the way, not to be mottling about it. and all due respect. Your father also passed away in 1981. And that's a pretty intense year. Yeah, it was yin-yang, for sure. So where are you at in all this, you know? I'm incredibly excited because the song's getting some attention. And then my brother called up and says,

you better come home. You know, dad's on his way out. And it's still hard for me to talk about. Well, no, it's okay. To at least be in the room with you, when my band was massive in 96, my mother was dying of cancer. And I was in this weird situation where I was touring and coming home, see my mom as she's withering away. So I understand the emotion of it all because I lived it. Yeah, it's very odd that things happen like that, you know.

Life is very interesting, right? It's always a mystery to me how these things kind of, you know, because that's what I said. In terms of your life, 1981 is one for the ages. Yeah, I'd gone to a party just before that started and had my tarot cards read, which and the woman said, that is the most amazing reading I've ever done. And I always had a lot of confidence in myself. Did you think she was trying to pick you up? No, no, I've always had a lot of faith in myself, you know, that I knew, I wouldn't have stuck it out for 10 years in America when everybody else in Australia would come over and then go home. I knew, I knew if something was going to happen.

And was it just a feeling? Yeah, and it was a validation. Yeah, okay. Maybe it's going to start now. I mean, you know, but, yeah, I've always had a guy came to me when I was 17 years old trying to sell me insurance at home and introduced me to a book call. the think and grow rich which is by Napoleon Hill which isn't about necessarily about getting rich it's about is it a positive part of yeah but attention and power positive power thing right but it's also power of positive thinking yeah but it's not just Norman this appeal it's very spiritual he talks very spiritually and um and uh it's it's a very deep book it's the thing grow rich is a bullshit title because it's a really deep book but it's also a very old speak,

written in the 20s. And I lived by that book. I had CDs later on, but I had read the book 30, 40 times. And it was just, it told me about visualization, the only difference between us in the animal

is that we can visualize a different future for ourselves. Right. And that's what this is about. It's the whole basis of all with Tony Robbins stuff and the secret and all of that. is all based on seeing where you want to be and believing it with all of your heart and soul okay so to follow the thread if you've manifested this moment okay how did you deal with the moment

was it was it was what you hoped it would be i was took long enough seriously i mean it was exciting but it was oh my god it was exactly like i thought it would be you know the people trying to be your friends and, you know, the girl attention and the excitement and the hearing, playing a riff. And I used to, went and saw the kinks when I was young and, da-da-da-da-da-d-d-d-and everyone lit up. And I'm going, God, I'd love to. Yeah. I'd love to have that.

And you've done it. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. So that kind of stuff. And then, you know, my dad, I went to, my brother called me up that morning and said, dad's gone. Oh my goodness. And I had to go to general hospital.

And I said, Dad would want me to go. He wouldn't want me to shirk that. So I went. And it was brutal. I do a scene. And I go, I didn't tell anybody. I didn't want anyone to know.

And then I go off the corner and I cry for a while, you know, and then come back and do the scene. And I finally went to, Gloria and said, my dad died, I gotta go. And she let me off for a couple of days. So I flew home that night, you know, and took care of it. And then came back and went back on the show. And it was, I remember flying to Florida to do some radio thing.

And a radio guy there still, Scott Channon still remembers it. He said it was amazing that you did it. But I was lying on the floor of the plane with my stomach. and nuts like this. You know, I pushed it down to try and get on with things. But is it because, obviously it's your father, but did you have a particularly close relationship? Yeah, very close.

Was he a hero? He didn't understand my music, but mom said he would play a working class dog on the record. I sent him in advance poppy and he said, this is going to do it, this one's going to do it. He died twice. He died when he was 51 from blood loss of an ulcer. And they brought him back, but he'd been out for like 15 minutes. So he came back almost like as a five-year-old kid, you know.

And this is a dad that was in charge. He was a lieutenant colonel in the army, amazing human being. And so he'd sit, you know, as he was kind of childlike toward the last like 10 years. And he'd. Is it because when he was when he was, dead, but he lived. It was something that would do with his brain? Yeah, but he had brain damage.

He had brain damage for like 10 minutes, so he had brain damage from lack of oxygen. We didn't know if he'd come back, but he didn't, you know, he came back a little, but he was always very young in his, you know, where he lost all his stress lines and, you know, so maybe there was a positive thing to it. But he, I didn't imagine him sitting in the chair.

Yeah, this is going to be the one. But I'm just trying to understand, and again, I'm saying it from a respectful. Yeah, I may be glossing over because of... No, what I'm saying is, is, why do you think it still hits you so hard now? Because I shoved it down. Okay, because you didn't deal with it then. I didn't deal with it. Is it because you were so busy and it was like, there's all the shining lights that you always wanted?

Everything I'd wanted and I felt like God was fucking with me almost. But also felt like I was being taken care of too. I mean, yeah, it was a very mixed bag in my head. And, yeah, it's so really a fact. Yeah, I get it. God bless. Yeah, because I think what's hard for almost anybody to understand is when you're standing in that moment, in this case,

you're in the zeitgeist, you're on television, your records being played, and you had put in your 10-plus years, you're aware like this moment doesn't last. I was very aware. It's not like you just get off a train and like, hey, I'll get back on this train in a year from now. You know that train's going to be long ago on the track.

And by the way, and I don't know if you were, there's also the predatory part of the music business, but they don't care what you're going through. You know, go talk to this radio guy, go do this interview, because they need you to keep. Yeah, they need you to keep producing, you know. Yeah. And I did, you know, I didn't have any fears about doing a second album,

an old sophomore team kind of thing. I just launched it. I can't imagine you would at that point because you've been through it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it upsets me that I am still so upset over it. I wrote a song called My Father's Chair that I still do, and it still affects me, you know, doing it, playing it live. Sometimes I can just get through it, but other times it still affects.

me and it's a part of a softness in me that I don't love. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. You've talked, and again, I've got to read the book, but I know you've talked about mental health issues and stuff. So is, explain this to me, do you feel you've had mental health issues your whole life or it was circumstantial, circumstantial? No, I've been with me in my whole life. I tried to hang myself when I was 16 in my garden shed.

And I was failing at everything. All I wanted to do was play guitar. Discovery guitar when I was 13. And I wasn't that popular with the girls. I was passionate about girls, but it wasn't that popular. I wasn't in the clique at school. I was always on the outside. So, mainly, a lot of the problem was that we moved.

My dad was in the army. So we moved every two years. I knew that when I'd make friends, I'd be saying by to them in two years, you know. And I had no roots, which is why I've lived in the same house for 40 years now. And we moved to England when I was a kid, and I discovered guitars and girls over there. And then three years later, we're back in Australia. And it was whipped around from school to school. and so I'd always left me on the outside.

Sure. I was never in the clique, you know. Yeah. And also I have an ADHD, so I lose my track. Help me. Help me. So under the stress of the moment, did you feel you were handling the... Because, again, you're in mourning over your father.

You're having this intense, you know, singular life experience. I've never had a number one. song. You know, I mean, that's a unique experience, you know. I haven't. I mean, I haven't had a number one album. Yeah, that's not bad. But what I'm trying to say is how do you feel you handled that, that sort of period, you know, that 81 on period? Because you've, you've had plenty of time to think about it. Yeah, I handled it fairly well. I was never, I never turned into a prick, you know. I mean, I was, my dad was great in the army. He was the only, when he retired, is the only officer where enlisted men came to his send-off. You know, he was

firm, but he was a good, a good humor. And I've always treated my band and crew like that. And on the road, they would always leave other, other tours to come with me because they knew it was going to be a fair, they'd be respected and treated well, and we'd have fun, you know. So I, I tried to maintain, I, not tried, I did maintain that. I took advantage of, you know, the offers, of course, like we all did. Yes. You know, when, especially when you're a kid that was never sure how girls felt about you and suddenly they're turning up. Okay, so you, you'd resisted being the teen heartthrob, but like, my memory of that time is like, you were definitely like, you know, sex symbol would be the way. Yeah, well, I was a heartthrob thing. I get that. Yeah. How did you feel in all that?

Did that feel strange to you? Yeah, it's never something I've been like, yeah, I get it. You know, I mean, who does that anyway? I don't know. But I did take advantage of it, obviously, like I said, but it was never something that I was comfortable. I'm never comfortable when people would talk about it, whether they like the way I looked, you know.

It was. Because it was very much in those times about your looks, you know. And it was annoying, really, a lot of the time. I mean, Huey Lewis said to me, you would have been bigger if you weren't so good-looking or something like that. But I get what he's saying. Yeah, I get it. It's like a beat a Franton thing, you know, where he was so cute that a lot of people kind of, when the second album came out, they went, well, no, where?

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, my perspective is probably way off. Yeah, I don't know. It's, I mean, we live in such a different time now. Totally. The media then was different, but if you were able to break through with that media, in those times, and you were typecast, for lack of a better way to put it.

Like, the cool thing for me as a fan was, is I likes your music, so I didn't care what anybody thought about your looks. Musicians are like that, though. I mean, honestly. I'm sure you meet them. Like, we were talking before we started an interview about Dave Grohl, like, real musicians like your music because you're really good. So it's like, you know, you being cute, it doesn't mean anything to us.

Right, exactly. And, you know, we're not afraid to say, oh, I like this bad. I like this song. Yeah. Because we understand it on another level and how difficult is to do something like that. Oh, yeah. And to be overly clear about it, I mean, you were writing and producing your records. Like, you weren't some creation.

Right. And I think a lot of people thought I was because I came out, to them, I came out of the soap opera. And AOR stations, you know, back in the day. Well, remember John Travolta had a recording career at one point? There was a lot of that, the guy from Duke's a Hazard. Remember he had a John Schneider? John Snyder, yeah. Who else were you saying?

Bruce Willis had a record. Don Johnson. That's true. Yeah. And they actually, I, for it's a type of person they'd look for in soaps from then on, a guy who could sing as well, which is where Ricky Martin, they got Ricky Martin. And a couple of other. Because it became like a marketing. Yeah, became a model, you know.

but it was purely by accident. Yeah. But, yeah, I was talking about the suicide thing. That was kind of very messed up because I was serious, you know. And it's always on my shoulder. It's weird. Just some dark part of me that I just can't, I have to deal with, you know. It's just something.

Do you feel you've navigated it at this point of your life? Yeah, I could, I slip back sometimes. But I feel like it's always there, but... Is there a thought attached to the thing that plagues you? Like, you know, some people say, I'm not good enough. Yeah, it's worthless. Unworthiness. Yeah, it's worthlessness.

So a lack of self-worth. Yeah. Where do you think that comes from? Probably just growing up where I grew up, and I was always, like I said, it was always the outsider. I grew up in an army group, you know, where my parents' friends were going, what's wrong with Richard?

Why are you letting him play guitar? Everyone else was going into service jobs, you know? Always felt like the black sheep. But the main thing that triggered the suicide attempt was just I was failing. I was failing in school. I discovered the guitar. All I wanted to do was stay home and play guitar.

I was kicked out of 11th grade because I wasn't attending school. I wasn't popular. I wasn't successful with girls. And every arena that I was, everyone was being successful, and I wasn't that good at sports. You know, I've spent enough time in Australia.

It's a tough culture. Yes, but there's a very tough culture. It can be very... Tall poppy syndrome. You get big enough. Oh, I'll cut you. Yeah. And, you know, obviously there's a lot

of kind of comparative culture between the UK and Australia for obvious reasons. But for some reason, Australian culture feels even a little bit more harsh. It is. And that's me as an assouder. And I love Australia. So do I. I love playing there. The people are great to me.

But when you're there, there's a certain tone that's the times as American where we kind of fake nice. Yeah. You know what I mean? How long is it time, Mike? When's a tour? I'll be gone on after it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, it was difficult. It was a bully state for me. I was always getting, we were always getting picked on. Every time we'd go to a dance, we'd have to fight our way out. There's, it's the only place I've been where in the bathroom's all the pubs. If your mate gets into a fight, this is what you do. You know, it's the nature.

I mean, I was over there. I've never toured as a solo artist over there, which is very, wait, wait, wait, stop, hit the brakes, what? Yeah. Because we do a world tour and we'd end up in Japan and by the time we're done, I'll go, I'll just want to go home. I couldn't, you know, and so I never toured. I did one thing, a countdown spectacular where, you know, you go on and you do three songs. And that was like 10, 15 years ago. And almost, I got a couple of flights set.

Were your record successful there? Yeah. So there was a demand for you to go there. What's that? There was a demand for you to go. Yeah, they were. Yeah, we actually had a tour booked, and I got the Merrill Street movie, the Ricky in the Flash, so I canceled it, and I, there was a lot of people I said over that, too. I'm kind of viewed.

I don't know if, I think I viewed as an ex-pat, Patriot, you know. Yeah, the guy who left. Yeah, I have an accent, you know, which I picked up because of acting. I didn't want to have to worry about the accent, because I would hear. English or Australian people that weren't very good at the American accent, and I thought it would mess with me while in front of relate to the part. So I just learned the accent, and living amongst people that became a natural thing. First time I went back to Australia, I was in a club, and I'm going, oh, I work.

There you go, mate. Yeah, I'm good. I'm just over here for a couple of weeks. You go, you're with your own people now, Mike. You don't need to talk about that. So I think that was, I think that was a little. Welcome home. Yeah, welcome home, fucker.

Yeah, right. So. But I do love Australia. I have friends there, and I love the country. I miss the country very much. You got married? In Australia. Okay.

There. See, that was the, you gave me the segue I was looking for. Another interesting year. You got married, and that same year you did, Hard to Hold, which kind of starts your movie, your movie thing. I know you're not a big fan of the movie. I believe you call it a piece of... Yes, that is probably...

When I read the original script, I threw it across the room. This is garbage. Before we jump into how much you hit the movie, was the cell job, hey, you've built yourself up, now we can transition you over to this movie career? No, I wanted to do movies. I saw myself as an... I see myself as an act of musician.

It's the same... It comes from the same place. It's just a different skill set. Okay. And I... So nobody was pushing you towards it. No. No, no, no, no. I wanted very much to do it.

I left General Hospital to pursue a movie career and to have more time to tour. Okay. So, yeah, absolutely. It was, no, it wasn't pushed. It was just, it was a bad choice of a movie, I thought, you know, and I thought, but I was at the point where I said, I can make this work. Okay. You know, the point where you get to where you think. Okay.

From the New York Times. Oh. Dripping sweat with the backstage lights glinting off his jewelry. gold belt and his single earring. James Roberts escapes to his dressing room, collapsing beside the Space Invaders Machine. He's drained. He's exhausted. He's a very famous rock star,

and he has just whipped another adoring audience into a lather. Hard to hold is a movie for anyone who thinks this sounds like real behind the scenes rock and roll ambience, and for anyone who thinks Rick Springfield is a real rock star. Wow. I thought, wow, that's interesting.

Yeah. So, you know, because again, it's trying to understand the nuance of you're standing in these spots at particular times. Of course, with hindsight being 2020, we can say, oh, you should have done that, you should have done that. But if it was me and somebody came along and said, I am willing to back you in a real Hollywood movie. Yeah, it was, it looked like kind of the right thing, you know. I did Peter Frampton and the Sergeant Pepper movie. That didn't exactly help. Well, they're not actors, you know.

I mean, I consider myself an actor. I'm better now than I was then, but I was better. I was a fairly seasoned actor at that point. Had you had any acting training? What's that? Did you ever have acting training? Yeah, yeah. I was in a class for like four years before I even went out to try.

I just didn't know if you were like a savant who was just good at a bunch of stuff. Well, but honestly, the class was, a lot of the classes are. A lot of it's really just about, you know, being there. And the classes give you all this mental bulls. Well, it's method acting and all that stuff. No, method's great. I mean, method is really you take time and sit with it and imagine all this stuff is happening.

And when, you know, you've ever been driving along the road and you get an angry thought and you start thinking about it and suddenly you're pushing the accelerator. That's method acting. Nothing's really happening other than up here. I see. So you create all this stuff inside you. That's what method acting is. There are other schools where they try and put it on paper,

and you've got to have a goal, and you're trying to think this while you're trying to talk to somebody, and it's just supposed. Yeah. So it's almost like you have to unlearn a lot of the stuff you learn initially. I have to jump past this. I'm not watching World Street, Loving Review, but it was an acting class.

I bet. So explain this part to me, because I only saw a note somewhere about it, takes a mental health break, 1985, is that accurate? Yeah. So, because again, big record, follow-up did, in your estimation, good, the follow-up record to the big record, right?

Yeah, no. Music career is great. Yeah, TV show, now you're doing movies. So why do you say, I need to stop? Because I moved to Malibu, and I had this big, beautiful Spanish house. And you're married, and I got married to the, you got married to the, woman I really wanted to marry. I just had a kid. And it was what I thought I had wanted. And there was one afternoon, I was walking around the pool, and I felt just as low as I've ever

felt. And I realized at that point that this wasn't going to heal me. Because I'd always thought all along, yeah, hit records, fame, money. I'll be more than I am, I'll be better. But after the initial rise, it was still me and still me and my shit. And that's... What was it because... I'm trying to find the right where it's... It wasn't what you wanted.

It didn't fix the problems. No, it was what I wanted. Very much what I wanted. But I thought that it would fix the problem with me. Okay. It might, what was happening inside. So it was magical thinking. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And I thought, if this thing happens, all this other stuff will get solved. You know, which we, I mean, you know, why we get divorced and marry somebody else is because we think it's all going to change. Yeah. It doesn't change. I learned that lesson too. Okay.

So when you stop, are you just, are you just in Malibu looking at the ocean thinking, what do I do now? I found a therapist, a young young therapist who'd learn from college. He had been a doctor and he'd seen all these patients dying and doctors covering stuff up. And he said, this is not the way I want to live. He's a very successful doctor. He lived in Beverly Hills, Mercedes, kids in great schools. Suddenly cut it all off and went to Zurich with his wife and learned under Carl Jung. And he was amazing.

I started to see him. I saw him for about five years. and it didn't heal me, but it doesn't heal you, but you start to name the demons that are chasing. So what were the points of existential crisis? Initially, it's self-worth. I just felt just so worthless. I felt like I didn't, this wasn't what I had was both. What I gained was meaningless.

It wasn't. It wasn't because of the work that you had done, and you felt, embarrassed or something. It was you hadn't gotten out of it what you thought you were doing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I felt like I wasn't, I wasn't worthy of it. It was luck. It was just, you know, and now I'm almost like, looked like a, he said, I went in one day, he said, he looked like a homeless person. And I did. I had like a scraggled beard and I looked like my hair had me once. And I just, I didn't, you know, I was just, I went down, way down. And, um, I had to because I was so depressed.

I remember watching myself on an MTV interview where I just played a big arena thing and she's interviewing me and I'm sitting there like this. Yeah. Who the fuck is that all about? You know, to see it like that, it was... So I pulled the plug, you know. Were you getting pressure?

I mean, you tell, you know, I know how the business works. You tell your manager or whatever, hey, I'm going to... Were they like... Do they say you'd need to take time or they were like? No, they were nervous about it. You know, they start saying, give us one more year, you know.

One more year of driving yourself insane. Yeah, you can take a break. Yeah. And I said, no, I've got to do this now because there's nowhere for me to go, you know. I may seem kind of melodramatic, but it was really. Sorry to interrupt you, but having experience, I totally get it. I just don't know you, but I. totally get it. Yeah. I totally get it. And people would, you know... You probably wouldn't be here if you

hadn't stopped. Exactly. I know that for sure. See, that's the salient point. Yeah. Live to fight another day, you know, something we say in this culture. Retreat, gather, and then go. Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, people would go, would go, why are you depressed? Why? Look at, you know... You got the world on a string and everything should be so great. understand that it's it's still me getting up in the morning and looking at myself and going see that's why that's such a powerful message and i've done some interviews about mental health stuff similar dynamics is for people to hear that success doesn't solve those problems success a lie it's something we must you know as human beings we must

achieve, you know, we must, there's all that thing, leave your mark, you know, leave our legacy. It's even at the root of procreation, right? Yeah, yeah. I want to leave. Yeah, exactly. I want to leave the, let the family go on past me. Right, right. And then you have daughters. Some form of humor. Exactly. And your name doesn't exist anymore. Well said. So, obviously jumping around, but Just trying to make the points. No albums between 88 and 97. Yeah.

I wrote an album actually out of my therapy sessions called Rock of Life that was basically about my first son and how it shook me, you know, and changed me. And that's certainly one of my favorite albums because it had one hit off it, but it didn't really do much. when did that come out in this? 88, I think it was. So that was your, that was the last album you did before you were like, you know. No, I took, I did therapy 85 to like 88.

Okay. And then started writing because of the therapy. Okay. And then did that album. And then took more time off, but then I got an acting gig that was a TV series called High Tide. That was with a guy I'm so friends with, the Canadian who actually is on 18th, season in a show called Murdoch Mysteries. And we played brothers, surf brothers that were also cops.

And we went to New Zealand to shoot the first season. Is this a down under base series? Yes. No, no, it's a worldwide series, but only if you're an insomniac or a night watchman. Okay. They played, it was like big in Brazil. It was big in Germany. And it was like three o'clock in the morning in America.

But it was work and it was fun. The scripts were pretty good. It was Tim Meneer, who actually is now in charge of American Horror Stories. Okay. So the initial scripts were good, and we were excited about it, and it was, we thought it might be a big hit. And then we did a second season in San Diego, and then a third season here in, you know, Oxnard and what's that up there.

Yeah. And then a folder, and that kind of took all my time. I see that. And you didn't know where I was. So did you make a conscious decision to stop doing music? Or you just got busy and you went done? I got busy. I got busy.

Because, you know, if you look it on paper, it seems like, okay, he takes a mental health break. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's unusual, you know. I felt like I was kind of being active, you know. I was in a career that I enjoyed. But when people would ask you, why aren't you doing music or once the next record, what would you say? I just said, I'm working right now.

Okay. So you didn't feel you to band. music. No, I didn't. I was writing all the time. Okay. And I never stopped writing. I mean, I do, you know, I binge write. I will write for three months and then won't write for six months, that kind of thing. I'm not the nine to five guy or write every day kind of guy. But I, you know, I was getting paid well when it was a successful show in certain areas. I felt like I was, you know, still pursuing a path, not the main path,

but I was still on A-pack. Right. But I knew I'd get back to music eventually, and that's, you know, really what happened. Yeah, it's just, it's, how can I put it? Your arc is very unusual, you know what I mean? Because you came in as a guitar player. You get dragged into pop land, you know,

then you go through this whole thing where you've got to kind of figure it out. You get in a contractual squabble. You end up being an actor and successful, right? And then it all converges at the same time. And within seven years of all converging, your dream of music is kind of set aside. And again, I understand your explanation.

I'm not arguing. It seems odd considering the arc. It's very unusual. It is an unusual path for sure. And I can't really explain it other than I've always just looked at what's in front of me. decided, you all do that or no, I won't do that. I'm not the, although I, you know, talk about manifestation, that it's end result that I manifest. It's not, it's not the steps to those end result.

So, I'm curious, you know how this culture works. It's like, my joke, my joke is I walk through the airport and people go, hey, are you the rat in the cage guy, right? Yeah. Okay. The identifier. And I've done 20, and so have you. But there's that guy in the airport that's like, hey,

how's Jesse doing? Oh, it's, yeah. You've heard it all. Yeah. So how have you, how have you navigated? I mean, it seems fairly balanced from the outside. I mean, you've stayed working, released a ton of music. You just have a new song out.

I just listen to. So how are you balanced all that? I mean, has it been tough for you to navigate, let's call it, the public version of your reality versus your actual reality? Not really, because I have a very, I think I have a fairly accurate view of the public's idea of me, you know. But does that, not bother you, you know what I mean, but is like, is there anything you feel like you need to correct or amend or? I'm not big on the legacy thing, you know, all that kind of thing. I just, I've been through, had a lot of, you know, when I first,

Jesse Joe first came out, I got a lot of crap from, you know, critics hated me. And so I'm used to all that kind of thing, and it doesn't bother me. And so someone's odd opinion, I understand it's, they've got their life right here, and they just want to need a box to put these people in, so that they don't need to think about it too hard, you know. And then pick the obvious identifier. the thing that they first heard, you know, that identified

you with them. And that's, they're comfortable with that. Yeah. So I don't, you know, like, have a new record out and you go on a talk show and they play Jesse's girl. I'm going, play the new record. By the way, I love the new record. Lose myself?

Lose myself, yeah. Great. I was like, I mean, it sounds like, a 25-year-old guy having a great song. Oh, thanks. Very youthful, you know, but not purposely so. It's like it's just in you. Yeah.

It comes out in your music. So I was very impressed by that. Although I do have to laugh because I'm thinking, okay, so the most famous song of yours is about you being obsessed about this girl. So back to the lyrics. You're the perfect drug at the imperfect time. Before you crashed in my life, I was doing fine. I fall into you and everything fades away. You burn, you burn through the world I knew.

Now I want to stay. And I want to lose myself. And I'm going to lose myself. I should be past this shit, but it still turns me on. Yep. So you're still here. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's great. Just being truthful, you know. Yeah. I mean, I'm 75 and you think, well, you should, maybe you should be, have more of a view, you know, a better view. But I'm, you know, there's still, the stuff still, I still have to, you know, take up a guitar and strut around. But it, but I'm saying it's in your music. I hear it. Yeah.

You know, I guess what I'm after, if it's like a Metarch, you know, because every interview is almost as like trying to create its own little movie. Like, here's the beginning, here's millin. So, you know, America has a way of categorizing people in, saying, oh, he does that, she does that. And I think you've repeatedly kind of broken this image, but it doesn't seem something you're trying to do. It's just a, it's a result of just who you are.

Yeah. Most people would be calculated about it. No one has never been calculated. That's what I'm saying. That's what's sort of refreshing about you. And our mutual friend, you know, he told me that about you. And that's why he wanted me to talk to you because he thought I would, I find that refreshing, and I do, because, you know, success in America, as you know, it's a very

singular thing, and we've both been blessed enough to have success in America. It really is, you know, it's the, it's the top of the hill as far as if you want to have success. So, and there's been a lot written and a lot sort of broken down about how should, you know, some snobby critic at the New York Times view people like us, if we don't sort of feel. fit into their perfect little model of value. And I think what's interesting about streaming services and stuff like that is they're changing the idea of value. How do you mean?

Well, people, if they like music, they just find it. Yeah. So my first reaction when I heard your song, Lose Yourself, was I added it to my master playlist. I was like, I love this song. Boom. It doesn't matter who or... If I found that song from you from 82 or 22 or 22.

or 2024, I'm just adding it to this playlist because it's like this great song, I want to hear it again. Yeah, I know, I do that too, yeah. Right, so as I'm saying, we're living in this world of shifting value. No, people outside us will no longer be able to define what our value is.

So I think that's kind of cool, and I think you're a great testament of that. Oh, okay, I get what you're saying. Yeah, it's like, it's like guitar player to guitar player because I'm a guitar player first too. It's like, once you're a guitar player, you never stop being guitar player, right? And music has taken us all over the world

and done all this crazy stuff. I sometimes look at the piece of wood with six wires. Well, that's why I want to know if you stuff, the white S-G, right? Yeah, right, right. So that's kind of what I'm trying to say is I think it's cool that you've just done it. You've just done it your way.

And the world's kind of swung back to you in its own time. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't, I mean, I think everybody who's successful, are certainly from, you know, like, I'm not sure about now with all the game shows and all that shit happening, but we come up through, you know, the clubs and the ranks. Yes, musicians first. Yeah, and we learn and we, you know, take the knocks. I mean, I would play in places in Australia where I had to turn the guitar around like a club

and beat people off the stage because they were fights. And, you know, some of these people that come up now, they have no idea of, And I don't know if they're, I mean, it doesn't matter because there's some great songs out there. But you find out, you find your roots and who you are musically, I think coming up that way, coming up the slow way through the clubs and all that kind of thing. Maybe it's an old view, but that's how you form who you are and what you want to write about and what you find important. Yeah. So last thing.

How do you, our mutual friend, he was talking about seeing you live and he was talking about where you did this song about your father's, my father's chair? My father's chair, yeah. And he said it was a very emotional moment. He's very hooked into his dad too. Sure. But he was expressing how emotional it was for him to hear you do this song live and he knows what that song means to you.

And he said he was getting annoyed because there's people going, you know, hey, take, you know, come over. You're going to play Jesse's girl. Yeah, whatever. you don't understand the simplicity of what I'm after. Yeah. No, it's, you know, I've been through a bit of that. I mean, I think of, you know, being in a club in Florida in 1976 with my then band and playing a song,

and there were two people sitting there and there was one over there. It finished a song and nobody clapped. And I went, guess you guys didn't like that song, eh? So, I mean, compared to that. Here's another. I'm okay with someone. I get pissed off at times. I've actually kind of said,

okay, this song's, you motherfuckers that were talking through my dad's song. You know, but... So you reminded me of being in a club in 1988, and the people were all the way over there at the bar, about eight people. And they were paying no attention to us, and they were just talking

because they were trying to pick each other up or drink their beers. And I remember thinking, I never want to be in a place where they can talk over the band again. And so at the next rehearsal, I said, for now on, we will never stop playing. And so we were in the habit where we would play, and then we would just feed back between songs. Just don't have songs with songs. So they couldn't talk.

That's great. Play loud. Turn it up to 11. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Last nerd question. Yeah.

Okay. What amps were you playing back in those days? in the in the in the in the in the in the in the suit in zoot in zoot i had a thing called an mnr which was a Australian made we had the you know like I said the America stuff was very expensive so you know their local guys would build stuff I had an MNR never heard of a yeah no no fair fair you know good sound though with good reason but but I had my you know Mike Gibson was my my SG was my first good guitar and actually in the um no use mainly um

marshals, you know. We had a horrible moment where we used PV solid states that didn't break up, and they were just painful as hell. It's synthetic fuzz. What's that? It's synthetic fuzz. That's, you know, it says like fuzz. Yeah.

It's a drawn wave. The sound of Leonard Skinnerd, though. What's that? That's the sound of Leonard Skinnerd. All three guys played peevies. Oh, my God. Next time you hear Sweet Home Alabama, that's peevy. Really?

That's the sound. Well, kudos to them. I'm making it sound good. I couldn't get it to sound good. And then, yeah, just used marshals and had for a while, had an old harmonizer between two ends. Oh, you did that. And dial it down, you know, to get a thicker sound.

That's what I used on working class. Okay, last question. Existential Union question. If you had it to do over again, Would you do it the same? Oh, no, I'd probably want to do it differently. Why would I want to do it the same? I don't know.

That's why I'm asking. Yeah, no. What would you change? Because you had a pretty cool life. Yeah. But it hasn't been easy at every step along the way. I've made a lot of good choices. I've made some bad choices, personally, you know, in my life.

I would probably tour the world. world more. Australia. Yeah. They're waiting. But yeah, I mean, no, I mean, I'm not satisfied because I think if you're satisfied, then you retire and you die. It's done, yeah.

I still have drive. I still have, you know, things I want to achieve, mountains I want to climb, all that kind of thing, songs I want to write that are better. And, you know, I'd better just do more of what I love to do, basically. but yeah there'd be some things I'd change but if I could knit-tip I'd sure I'd be frigging nothing major no I'm made a couple of major thing would you still do the uh is it hard to hold yeah no I'd probably you know what I was I was up for the right stuff and I and I turned that down going I turned down going to to you know read for that because I got hard to hold so I'd probably

go, you know what, I'm going to read for the right stuff in Cardo. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Rick.