The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Sam Moore | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

In what may be one of his final interviews, soul legend Sam Moore (of Sam & Dave) sits down with Billy Corgan for a candid, career-spanning conversation—covering church-born vocals, the Stax vs. Motown divide, and why real bands beat backing tracks. He revisits the accidental origins of Sam & Dave, the studio alchemy with Isaac Hayes and David Porter, and sessions behind “Hold On, I’m Comin’” and the iconic “Play it, Steve!” on “Soul Man.” Moore speaks frankly about industry politics, DJ gatekeeping, tours with Otis Redding, the M.G.’s (Duck Dunn, Al Jackson, Steve Cropper) and his long road from addiction to sobriety. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And then came, you don't know like I know. Great song. Well, it didn't hurt nothing. Now, I think had a monopoly on Sam Moore. I really liked the stuff coming out of United Artists. I like those songs. They promote it? No.

Because you know why? I was a junkie. I didn't like that because it burned first time. I could make love and all that stuff. Whoa, boy. And that was the beginning. Let's start here because I haven't seen the new Stacks documentary. I heard you did see it.

You did see it? I did. How do you feel about it? Because I heard you weren't totally happy with it. Billy, the first two nights were I could accept. And I did accept. But the last two nights, I, from my standpoint,

I wasn't very pleased about it. I don't think when you're doing something like that, musically, you want to try to stay away from the politics and the racism and everything else. You want to focus much more into the music. was what had begun, how it revolves

and not all the stuff about who killed Malcolm, why they killed Martin and Ku Klux Klan. That's not giving information and talking about the music for the young people that's going to be watching. Yeah.

That was my only take on it. I mean, my impression as a fan of Stax is it's such a testament to how music can bring people together. Yes, yes. I tell you, Billy, I was very, and I looked at this

yesterday, looking at the book, and there are people that could have got call-outs like Luther Ingraham, the soul children, believe it or not, Lil Milton, the stable singers,

Arthur Connolly, who has sweet soul music. Come on, Billy. I mean, I mean, you're going to focus in on who killed Martin instead of, you know, doing your thing, doing your thing about, you know, these people

that's in the industry of music. Yes, sir. From my view, I was not totally happy about it. you feel how they dealt with your guys' story? They, you know, from the time we came from a roulette records

and trying to get a record deal working up until we got signed to Atlantic and the tell the story how we got signed to Atlantic that was interesting. Now, there were some parts in there

that is really is a contradictory thing because one person is saying that Sam and Dave came down to Memphis Stacks. No one wanted to

record them or wanted to be given us a deal. And before that, it says that Jerry Wexler from Atlantic sent us down there. So, you know, that's confusing. Yeah. You know, you can't, you, if you're going to, if you're going to say something positive or negative, tell, be honest and tell the truth.

Yeah. That's what I, you know, don't, don't, um, say things to make yourself or whatever look good. Tell the truth and be honest and let the cards fall with them, hey. And that's my, that was my take on in Billy. Okay, so a quick story about myself. So my father was born in Southern Illinois, and they moved up to Chicago. My grandmother got divorced. My dad was quite young, and my grandmother ended up working as a maid and, you know, living in a poor neighborhood.

My dad told this story of how he fell in love with music because they lived across the street from a gospel church on the south side of Chicago. Oh, wow. In the 1950s. and he used to go into the church and listened, you know, and for all we know, he was listening to Sam Cook or whoever was in the circuit around that point. So I like, right, right. So this forever stuck with me because he loved black music to his gut. He basically would tell me, he would tell me as a little boy, white people not so great.

If you want to listen to real music, you listen to this kind of music. That's what I grew up on. I grew up on Stacks. You know, I grew up on bands like the Shilights and things like this. So I want you to, if you could talk, because I know how important the church was for you in terms of your singing. Billy, I have to, I would have to agree with your father. As opposed, now the reason, let me explain to you why.

I'm not going to be putting down today's music. that's not that's not in our conversation here but what I agree with him is back in the days of what your father was listening to and what you

became lover of that was music you had if your father lived in the fifties and living in Chicago that meant That meant that he heard Melia Jackson.

He heard the caravan. He heard the Cook family, which is Sam and his brothers and his sisters. He heard oh my God, a lot of gospel.

Mostly other staple singers. So your father was right. That was musing in the days. We didn't have what they have today. Today, back in that time, if you went on

stage to do a show, a performance, you better, you better, you better, you better bring your A game because whoever was ahead of you

could and would embarrass you to the point that, no, your father, right, it would be the person that would be ahead of you, would embarrass you with your own headline. You're headlining and they're coming on as a Gus singer

and they're embarrassing you. So today they don't, I found out they don't use. But I said to my wife, I said to Joyce, I said, Joyce, I said, I see Beyonce and Taylor Swift and all these people doing these shows

and I said but I I don't see a band and she said Sam she said I don't know how to tell you but I'm going to tell you they don't use bands

any longer I said live band she said no they do tracks they do and they don't but she's right yeah Why? And I'm going, what? Well, I would like to, if I was going to go to a show today, if, and I say if, preposition, if I was going, I want you to show me something, Billy. I mean, I mean, if you're going to, you know, show me, show me what you got.

I mean, make me, make me earn my time of watching you up there on that stage. I don't want to see a lot of dolls and fake penises and all this stuff. I don't want to see this stuff. You know, I'm not into that, Billy, you know. I'm not into fake penises either. No, I'm not into Billy. No, I'm not into that. And I don't want to see the ladies on the floor and all that stuff.

I want to hear. And also, again, I come back to her and we discuss this. I said, do you think we're going to ever? Because there's no question in my mind that there are still good singers out here. There are still good singers out here. But what? And I said, are you, do you think we're going to ever hear any good music today? She says, no.

And when you talk to her, maybe sometime in the near future, you can debate her. But she says she doesn't think the music is going to be like it, good as it was back then. Well, what do you think? Well, I think, you know, when you guys first hit it big, there was a lot of fake artificial music in the time, You know what I mean? Like cheesy, cheesy sweet pop.

And you guys broke through with real gut bucket from the heart soul music, like literally from the soul. So I think there's always that opportunity when it gets too perfect, too fake, that somebody comes through from the heart. And I think from a spiritual point of view, God always sort of seems to manifest the thing when you least expect it. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Amen. I totally agree with that because I want to hear your heart. I don't, you know, I want to hear, I want to see your sweat. I want to see your, yeah, I want to see your do C.L. Franklin. Right. I get it. I want to see. Yeah, I want to see your dance all over that place singing and whatnot.

And I did not be a clown because to me that's not clown. But if the Holy Ghost hit here, you're going to dance. You're going to do the Holy Dance. And we did that. I did that. David, I did that a lot. I got Joyce. She doesn't understand.

I never dance. I did the Holy Dance. She said, yeah, okay. At the dance. At the dance of that. She said. There's footage. You know.

But I. You know, if I'm paying 40 or 50 or 75 or 1,700 to see you, I want it, man, I want you to put it, lay it out on me. Which, you know, that's, you know, that was, that was saying, that's saying something now, because that's not going to happen. So, you know, so we'll move on. I know, I know there's this story where you, you, you got a gig emceeing. and that's how you ended up meeting Dave and, you know, there's that whole story. But I want to know, how old were you when you got that gig

and you started singing professionally for the first time? I was probably in my 20s. Really? Yeah, I was probably in my 20s, yeah. I was, I think, oh, I was out of high. This was back, this was upended six scenes. And you know how young kids at that time, Billy tried to impress one another. And we were, it was a gang of us, well, three or four of us together.

And being the smallest one in the group, we passed by this club. And there was a sign in the glass window that saw. said, hiring MC singer, comedian, you know, comedians plus. So one of my, one of the guys with us said, hey, Sam, I bet you won't try that. And I said, what? He said, right there. So I looked at that, I said, yeah, well, I'm a gospel singer, you know. And, but, you don't dare me, because I'm going to take the dare. So I walked up, Billy, and I, I, there was Mr.

At the time, there was Mr. Lamello, the owner's father was sitting at the door. And I walked up and I said to him, I said, I like to take, get that job. He said, what job? I said, right there in the window. Well, when you look at me at that time, you were the question. you're going to go, really right? You know, what, what is your, what is your qualification? Oh, yeah, well, you know, yeah.

You and you? Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I, I mean, I, you know, I'm emcee. Where? Where gospel shows and shows on the beach? Okay, what shows on the beach? what shows on the beach? What's your name? Sam. Oh, okay.

Sam, what shows you emcee on the beach? Well, Billy, I got myself in a trick bag. I said, oh, at the Eden Rock and, you know, and who did you emce for at the Eden Rock? Oh, oh, yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I am seen for Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra. Now, Billy, we're not, we're not, we're not that far out of, out of segregation, okay?

Come on, come on. You know, that's why I said, I got myself in a jam. He said, Sir, Frank Sinatra, yes, sir. And who else? Bobby Darren? Bobby Darren. Really? Yes, sir?

Uh-huh. At least you went for the best, right? You started the time. I did. I had read this in the newspaper. Entertainers come in town. I didn't know. I didn't know. So he said, okay, I'll give you a tryout.

when could you do a tryout? Could you come in and do a try out? I said, yes, sir, sure. When? I said, when are you like for me? He said, how about tomorrow night? Now, Billy, there was no way. I didn't have clothes for rock and roll show or nothing like that.

So I took one of my gospel suits and cut the legs to make them like, like, little Lord Fonteroy kind of Yeah and court shirt and tie and I went in and

he said and then he gave me a list really he gave me a list he said this is what you do when the music starts you come up and they're going to you introduce yourself

yes sir this is going to be amateur night yes sir okay Now, what you do, introduce yourself, then you sing a song, and after you sing a couple of songs, then you introduce the band, and you start with the damn, too, I mean, you can tell a joke, yes, sir. And you can, you are, you say, you can tell jokes, yes, sir, okay, good, good, okay. This is a good tryout. Now, you don't have the job, Sam.

You're doing a tryout. Yes, sir. Okay. I went up and I knew two songs. I knew, you'll never smile again. And I knew Danny Boy. The Irish classic. Don't ask me about another song.

That's what I knew. And I sang those two songs for a week. I told the same joke. Well, there weren't jokes. I thought there were jokes when I said, knock, knocking the audience go, who's there? So eventually the owner

walks up to me, calls me in, and he said, my father, say you're doing a tryout? I said, yes, sir. He said, okay, I'm the son of,

my father is Mr. Lamello. Okay, I said, yes, sir. Listen, I want to say something. Okay. I thought he was going to give me a big come on. I'm going to make it. He said,

first of all, you sound stupid. You don't know what I'm saying? Tucson. You don't know any other two songs? No, sir. Uh-huh. Okay, cut those out.

Next thing, you're not funny. Sorry. In fact, you, I'm losing money because people are hearing this stuff and they're walking out are going to the bathroom. They don't want to hear knock, knock jokes. Just cut that out.

By the way, I tell you what, let you go up on the front and you take down the names of people that want to be on amateur hour. Don't you, you, call you stupid. He did. He said, you sound real stupid. He said, I love the way. I love it. the way you phrase and sing you're a little loud but it's okay what kind of saying i said oh he said what i said i say gospel he said oh okay well what kind of gospel i said gospel you know

it's okay well don't say gospel no one don't do that no more just be up so that's how i started bill i was i went up to the front and that's how i met dave because i was up for taking names of people that wanted to be on the amateur hour. And that's how that's how sort of how the beginning of Stoddy, Sam and Dave. When you, had you heard Dave sing before that or was that the first time? No, that was the first time. I had, I heard about this young man that was a great, believe it or not, Billy, I heard that, from word of mouth, that this was the next Sam Cooke.

That's what I heard. Right. And I hadn't seen him. But when he did come out there and he and I was taking down the names and he came up and I said, and your name, he said, Dave, I said, okay. And I'm pretty sure you have a last name. Yeah. What's your last name?

Prater. I said, what? Prater. I said, spell it. So he, I said, oh, prater. He says, no, praetor. I said, oh, okay, okay, okay. Fine, they ain't going to fight over name called in, you know.

So I said, what are you saying? So I, wait, did he say, I'm doing dogging me, I'm going to be doing dogging me around. I said, oh, really? Okay. So I put it down. And the rest, rest, Billy is history. It went from sugar to, you know what. with that. And that's how Salmon Day became, unfortunately became for the next 21 to 22 years, Sam

Day. Now, did you feel musically connected, or did you, like, what was it about the connection? I obviously people loved when you guys sang together. That's evident. But what was your impression of him musically? Listen, it was a job that was put on me, not by me. I didn't hire Day. and get Dave to cover. Johnny Lamello is the one, and the guy behind the bar that was a bartender by the name of P.R. Ellis, I mean, P.P.Wilson, that got us together. And Johnny, when Dave did what he did on stage with the microphone,

and I got nervous, and I was trying to get out of the way of whatever you want to call it. And the audience bit. They thought that was the act. The audience put us actually it together because Johnny went from when they started screaming, when he and I both went to the

floor to get the mic, pick the mic up. Yeah. It was like a Joe Tess phase sort of thing, you know, without using your foot in and stuff. So that's actually what happened. Your impression of him as a singer first. Because I want to

unpack that a little bit. At that time, it was okay because we had a, we didn't have a, that was no plan, there was no strategy, uh, what, and we were doing covers. So we were doing, um, hold on, I, we were doing songs like, don't play that song for me. Uh, and things that that sounded gospely like Sam Coole. stuff, Jackie Wilson stuff. We never harmonized Billy. And that was

proven to me by Isaac Hayes. We never harmonized. We blended. But we never harmonized and call a response. So that's when I say call and response, that doesn't mean that I, that doesn't give credit to

being impressed. If I say something or say something, he would chase me behind or say what I would say or make up his own. I want to listen today after 20-some-odd years for the first time. All those years that he and I performed up and down the road and out of the country, I never really listened to Dave that much. I really didn't, Billy.

Now, that may sound a little chesty, but no, I really didn't listen. And Joyce couldn't confirm that because she was with me at the time. and I was on stage and, well, I was going to do a thing drug-wise. And Billy, I was singing. And for some reason or another, I was getting sick. I needed to hit some drugs. That's when I come. I stopped singing that much and let you take over him lead on a song.

And I went, not understanding. I didn't pay attention until then that I had done it on a hot, Mike. I said he can't say. And George I don't know whether she still hasn't now, but she had it on a recorder a camera or something, whatever she had. And I went, he can't say.

That's the first time I had ever had him out of 21 years. That's true. I mean, I'm telling the truth, Billy. I believe you. Oh, that's how I'm like to pang myself, but it's not. No, I never listened today. But what's sort of shockings maybe not the right word, but you guys had so much success, especially when you went to

Stacks. Were you surprised by the reaction to both of you, or did you see it more as your thing and he was with you? Does that make sense? I didn't have that in mind. Thank you. asking that question. I had not in my world of thought to do Sam and Dave. I had my mindset on doing songs like, watch how stupid I was now. I was thinking along the lines of doing stuff like Jackie Wilson, Sam Cook, Benny King, you know, Louis John, Clyde McFadda, pretty songs. I had that in mind, having that in mind, and we will call in and we were introduced to Hayes and Porter.

By the way, we were introduced to that day. We went into the studio, and Jim Stewart, the owner, said to me, to David, myself, that they were going to be our producers. First of all, I'm upset because I've seen how Isaac is dressed. That's a letdown right there. this man's got these clothes that he's wearing that does not garner anything of the thinking of the way that I, of the songs I want to do. I see. I would like to do. So what I did, we went in, and they started playing down some songs, and they got to some songs.

And Billy, right there. I kid you're not. Right there. Tears started coming down the side of my face. I started crying. And I said, I want to go home. This is not going to work. Well, Billy, we had, you know,

there was a failure with roulette. and everything and locally down here. Was that with Morris Levy? Was that the roulette under Morris Levy? Oh, yeah, Billy. He didn't know what to do with us, and I don't think he cared about doing anything. We were, listen, he didn't see no reason to make money with us.

Because if you want to call it a style of a style the way we were singing like gospel singers, he, that was not in his, you know, he, like, he, come on, he had, like, Com Basie, Joe Williams, O.C. Smith. There's people like that. You know, the people that didn't even come near of the thing that he was making money with and, you know, doing his thing with. So, no, that was a failure there. So having coming, finally getting a deal and not having somebody to really speak up for us to make the deal, I felt, I really felt let down. I really was upset and hurt.

And I really wanted to go back home and come back and, well, maybe try and get a, maybe try again to get a record deal. that gospel record deal. I hear you, you're in, you're in stacks, you're meeting these guys who we, many names we all know now, Isaac Hayes, Booker T, Steve Cropper, Duck Dunn, you know, this, that crew, right? That's the crew. And Jim Stewart was the label owner, right? Yeah. So it's just a, yeah. Yeah. So, so how do we get from you stand and they're crying, you know what I mean, to making hits with these same people? Okay. And I, and I. And I came to to find this out in the book that I was reading. First of all, I did not know. I didn't know we were important.

I didn't think we were important enough to be there. But I didn't have enough gumption to, I didn't have no manager to go to to say, hey, look, I don't want to, I don't want to sign with these. I don't want to sign with these guys, you know. I didn't know that at the time I knew we had signed with Atlantic so I didn't know to call Jerry or you know anybody

I didn't know I just choked back everything and they played songs and I found out Billy that if they hadn't have come up with something eventually they were going to call Atlantic and drop us

they were going to drop us, Billy. And the first thing came to mind because we had a song called Jody, Jody Ryder, it was sort of like a country song which I intentionally sang it country. and I remember Jim Stewart saying, what are you doing?

And I'm going, singing, he said, they don't want you to say it like that. They want you to sing it like their, you know, they have it put down. Well, I did that intentionally because I didn't like the song. So we passed that, Billy. And then Kane,

you don't know like I. know. Great song. Well, yeah. It didn't hurt nothing. Now, you know, you don't know like I know it. Okay, all right. Sound like me, you know, I sounded liking it.

But now I was at all that gunhole about all the songs. I wasn't all that gunhole about holorm coming and that really wasn't gunhole by soul man. But I went along with it. And the next thing I knew, I didn't get a gunhole about anything until, uh, maybe Dave and I have been together about 19 years when I started appreciating what we were doing. That's crazy to me. Yeah, yeah.

Did you? Were you not feeling the band? What didn't you like about it musically? The thing about it, I was so accustomed to doing the holy dance and singing gospel until I took that part of what I was doing in church and carried on stage. And locally, I was doing that here in Miami. Well, we're going and doing shows now. overseas.

What did I do? I covered myself by doing this, Billy. I covered this. I went out and I first, to make things better to cover, I put together a 21 piece orchestra for the stage. To dance, I'm standing on the corner here in Miami,

and I saw the Florida A, and M 10. The one everybody talks about the fast stepping floor at an M and I stood there and I looked really and I mean they were stepping and I said that's what I want

I want the horn swinging I want that fast step I want you playing and I want that to be if I can put that together with what I hear with Duck and

Isaac and Al Jackson in the horn line and I know I know you understand I'm not bringing up another name of Steve Cropper he was not integral part

of what Isaac was trying to put together Was Isaac Hayes the person you most connected with musically in that in Stax's world? Oh God, yes oh God He taught me not how to sing Billy. No. He taught me how to properly do it.

He knew I had that gospely thing. Okay. What should do, Sam? What I want to do it. He would do this at first. A verse, a chorus. and then go back to the top. Well, that was not long enough to put a record out.

So what they did, they had to go back and put a beginning, a middle, and an end, and go back to the top, and then your aunt lived out. Well, that's how Isaac saw it, and that's how the... Sam, Sam, or you're singing, if they would have sung... where Isaac put him and wanted him to sing, then that would have been harmonizing. But for some reason or another, I don't know, you know, today I don't know, people got into Dave's head that he could sing those high notes and all those keys.

And he doesn't understand those were, to me, they were not high notes. It was just a matter of fact singing. Yeah, you just sang up there anyway. I just sang up there anyway. I even talked up there anyway, you know. So anyway, to move on here, that's how David put it out to. I mean, Isaac put it together. Well, when Booker T. would come into town, he did like, he played on, let me,

what's see, he played on May I, baby. He played October. He played the tuba, and I'm not too sure whether we ever recorded in his material. I doubt that, because he was in Indiana University of Indiana going to school. But on the summertime, and we were there, it was always Isaac. I connected with him sitting now at the piano or standing, and he would sing Dave's part down to Dave. Dave, this is where I want you to go.

Right. Sam, this is where, you know, I'm not going to tell you where to go. What you do, you find your place. Yeah. That's how he would put it. Find your place. And that's what I would do, Billy. I just find a place.

So if I open up a song, sing it down first. Don't be yelling and screaming. Sing it. Middle of the song. Sing it. End of the song. Sing it.

Build up a pyramid. Go back up the top. And then now Sam ad-lib. Do all your Sam stuff. Dave. Dave, you fall. of him, do whatever, you know, and that's how, that was Saving Day. Wow. Interesting. So, just indulge me because I love Stax music so much.

Yeah. To me, it's just so much great music. I mean, it's incredible if you listen to how many great artists, how many great songs, how many great performances. Yeah. So indulge me, what was the typical session? You guys are behind sort of a, like a soundproof thing, So you can see the band, but you're isolated. Is that how it worked? We're behind the board. You know, the microphone, two mics. We saw Steve Crawford.

That's how player Steve came up because he was standing right in front of me. I saw Isaac. Isaac put himself in a place. I could see him. David would get all in there. And it was a lot of, and I guess he takes credit for showing, telling me how to say that was not true.

He was what he was doing. I was leaving. He was listening what Mr. Stewart telling him, Sam is leaving too many gaps. And that's how Blair Steve came up out. I was leaving, I'm a soul, man, and that's it. No, fill in that gap. And Isaac was saying, you know, fill in that gap, don't leave that open space like that.

Because it's not, it's not, it's empty. So as I was trying to find something, Billy, I, I blurted out, play it, Steve. That's all I could come over with. And believe it not, that was almost refused. Because when we went up into the engineering room, Jim Stewart said to me, Sam, why did you say play it? Steve? Because it looked like you, you know, you're counting on why you didn't say

played Isaac or played sons or play. And I couldn't give. I couldn't give Jim and ads. I said, I just, I said, you said, fill the gap, Jim. I just, I said, I said, Steve was studying there, and I just saw him, and I just, I just blurted later on. But from your vantage point, you could see the whole band or maybe just part of the band? Just part. Oh, okay.

Just part at the time. Right. Yeah, just far. Are you? For a long time, it was only the rhythm section. Billy, when we first started recording, it was only. that we were recording with the whole band. We had horns and everything in the studio.

But as times went on, what was happening was this. Isaac would lay down tracks because it was taken too long for, and I'm not saying this would be rude. or nasty. I'm just being honest. It was taken Dave had a lisp and it was destroying the mic

coming over the system. He would say a lot. And it was, and they did everything they could even put put putty, chewing up in his mouth to cut that and, you know, and they had

to start there. So what Isaac came up with after cut the track, that is when we learned that what he was doing, he would work overnight to get that, that, the whisper sound out of the songs. And so that was getting too much, and it was, and it was costing a lot of money, you know, because Atlanta started saying something, my God, it takes that long to record one song. well yeah it did Billy

you know when you were created obviously some of these songs which are now classics you know did you have a sense that they were going to be hits in classics

or were they just other songs and the other songs you were recording I liked you know I like you know what can I say this

you ever heard the name Homer Banks I do know the name I don't know where or how he did a Johnny Taylor's who's making love and stuff like that. Yeah, who's making love to your old lady

while you're out making love, right? He wrote all, he wrote most of the stuff for, for, for, for, for, uh, at Stax. He wrote for Samaday, uh, you don't know what you mean to me and, and stuff like that. I'm not too sure he'd write other stuff

that David may have taken credit for writing. Oh, but hey, that's, that's up for controversy. Too late. Let's pass it. He would have been, if I had the power at the time, after those hits, I would have chosen him as my lead writer with Isaac. Billy, he was a hell of a writer. I love his stuff.

All the stuff that David wrote, well, I sort of liked some of the stuff. I like, I like, hold on them coming. something that's wrong. I like that. I thank you. I like that. It was just so much I could do with soul men at the time because I'm not finding out it was not a

rhythm and blues song, Billy. It was like a Dylan writing a song. Yeah. It was one of those kind of songs. I didn't know that. I thought it was a song, you know, get the girls and all it. But no, it was Isaac and

it was, I found out, it was a character song. Oh, interesting. Never knew that. Yeah. I, Billy, don't feel that, I felt

I did not know that myself until later on. I read that that's what the song was all about. Yeah. So in terms of choosing material, did you have some say over it? Or was it basically like, here's the song you guys are going to record and we're going to trust Isaac, whoever,

is kind of running it to point us in the right direction? There were our producers. My writing days, I had writers block. I had stopped writing ever since I left here. So I had no inkling to write. And I left it up to at the time, I left it up to David to write, and I would go by what Isaac would lay down at the piano in the rhythm section. I had no inklings about writing songs because I don't think I would have written.

If I would have, didn't have writers' blocks, I don't think I would have written that way anyway. I don't think a soul man would have come into play. I don't think so. I'm pretty sure or not. Can you appreciate why people still love that music so deeply? Is that something you've kind of grown to understand? I understand that now. I understand what I think was leading up to with Soul Man.

Hold on, I'm coming. Yeah, I appreciate because you know what I found out. Also, through reading and listening to others, Hold on a McCormackles was recorded by many others. Hold on Upcoming, like Bill Cosby, Willie Nelson. I mean, come on, man. I mean, I was appreciative to hear people sing that song. I'm going, whoa.

ain't that something the soul children they did it uh oritha Franklin from what I went for what Joyce tells me I don't know if

what she is but she told me that Aretha Franklin got a Grammy behind hold on I'm coming huh Hey buddy Hey partner Can you believe

Hey I'm I in me. Yeah, it's interesting because to me, at least from a musician point of view, it's the combination of

your vocal against that kind of Memphis gut bucket feel that makes it so electric. Yeah, well, you know what you go back, let's go back. Let's go back a little. Let me take your back a little bit. If it don't be for

the baseline of a Doug Dunn, the drumming laying down the drum of Al Jackson, man, if it don't be for them and Isaac Hayes putting that together,

Billy, there would be no Sam and Dave. Sorry. Nope, wouldn't have been. This man is the one, he gets all the credit for that. He's the one that lay and this is a man that, basically didn't read the music.

He was doing that thing by ear and heart and feel. He would take the horns and he would say, this is what I want you to do. So, so, so, so, so. Hey, I love, Dwayne, John, do this. So, so, so, lay that horn lying down.

Okay. Now, you didn't have to tell Al Jackson. Al Jackson was the best at holding it right there, not above, not under, holding it in place. And if you'll listen to some of the live things that Sam and Dave is doing,

you hear me say, he, they're about to kill me on him. He wouldn't, because I wanted to come out. You know, I don't sudden this all damn. I have lived. My brain's out. And I'm looking at, I'm looking at Al, and Al is just holding it.

And guess what? My wife takes it upon herself to listen to that. And she tells, at that time she would tell, just stay there. Don't let him go. Let's keep it right. Don't do nothing phony. Don't do no, bruns and roars. No, bang on him, stick it up in his butt.

And I'm going, Joyce, see out of this. And that came from Al Jackson. Yeah. Billy, if you don't mind, I'm going to tell you something. I'm going to share something with you. That came to mine, came to mind. And I never shared, some of this I talk about Joyce. I mean, maybe they could have been bigger than beef.

Maybe not, you know, I'm not talking about the tailsmiths of the beach boys. I'm talking about bigger than they than they were. Okay, we were big, but we should have been bigger. But we didn't have the right connection. Management, attorneys, agencies. And actually, nobody actually gave a damn. I mean, come on.

we were pushed around. We came up at the time that segregation was just well, if Martin hadn't gotten killed, I think it would have been better. But at the time, it would just crossing over into a segregation

if you want to call it that today. Because segregation is going to always be around. I'm sorry. But we just didn't have the right instruments and tools to make salmon day bigger than they really should have been. Yeah, which is crazy because you had, I think, 10 top 20 hits in a row. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Billy, we did. You're absolutely right. I was reading that in the ads the other night in the old book.

and it was 10. And listen, if we didn't get big over here on the charts, it did a lot of damage in Europe. Right. England, France, Japan.

It did a lot of big. It hit big over there. So a lot of times when we would go overseas, they would ask us the same songs like, So it's just a brown sugar. What? Wrap it up. What?

And we had to, believe it or not, Billy, we had to go back into rehearsal to learn the darn thing. Because people were caught in that and we overseas in rehearsal learning the songs to wrap it up. Catch a final.

You know, stuff. What the devil? So over here, we didn't have to worry about it. Social surprise sugar, being overseas, did they do any damage, do anything over here? Not really, no. I mean, I've heard and read that many African-American artists that went over to Europe in the 60s

were surprised at how much better they were treated over there. Did you experience that as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we first went over with as cold, headliners, hookhole headliners with Otis Redding. We were surprised. We were on stage before Otis went on. And Billy, we were singing, hold on, I'm coming as our ending.

When Soul Man and Otis Redding's manager, came to the current at the end of the currants and pointed his finger number one. We had gone number one over there. Wow.

We were supposed to go to number one over here, but somebody stops us like, you know, but that's okay. I love her to death. It was Lulu. Lulu. Lulu got you good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's be

fair. If Atlantic had have done their job and got in there and did like they were doing with Aretha, okay? The money that they put out

on and did with Aretha? Wonderful. But they tell me that the reason is, hey, those weren't the time. So that's the way it went down. And you know what, Billy? I got to tell you something. Please.

Who controls? that at the time to keep it out of it and I'm going to be fair to Atlantic and Stax at that time records were being played over the radio

you knew who controlled that the disc jockeys if a whole other than coming wouldn't have come out of me and I'm just I'm not just picking on hold on come on just grabbing a song and so man I mean a hold on coming with sense of the radio station

here. Well, a friend of mine, like Butterball, would have got it sent to him. Now, he's a friend to Henry Stone. Okay. Henry Stone get his cut. He's doing what he's got to do. He's part of Sam and Dave. He says he's an. Well, when it came down to this, and the disc jockey call, he said, hi, Sam. How you doing? man, I just got your new record today. Really?

Yeah. And we went on by that. I like that. Sam, Sam. I like that song, boy. He said, thank you. Yeah, man. I thought I'd call you and let you know.

You got a hit. You got a hit, boy. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Sam. Sam. Guess what? What?

I just bought a new car. Oh, oh. Watch it, Billy. Watch it, Billy. Just bought a new car. Really? Yeah, I got, hey,

I got this bad Cadillac, man. Really, yeah. You know, and, you know, the money that I make here at the station, I said to myself, I am making that much, but I saved a problem, to put a down pay.

Listen, Billy, to put a down payment. yeah, I understand. Now, Bill, now what that's got to do with you telling me you like my record? So, Sam, yeah, I can put that thing in number one.

I can make it number two, Bill, Sam. Could you see your way clear to send me a couple of hundred, maybe, you know, three or more, you know. Well, that went on for forever. for a long time until we didn't have a record company, record deal,

a record company. That went on with a disc jockeys would call me in the middle of the night or called me on the road or find me. And they were just I mean, I was like a dump truck. Yeah. I was sending money.

Yeah. And that's what happened, Billy. I'm sharing this with you, my friend. And I'm telling you, that's the truth. That's the way I saw it. This jacket's controlled how far a record could be played. What happening today? I don't know.

I have nothing. I don't know nothing about that. Oh, they just do it different now. Oh, okay. Same but different. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yes, sir.

Oh, but thank you for enlightening me because I didn't know, man. You know. It's a new century old problems. Oh, nothing has changed that much. Yes and no. Yes and no. Okay. You're going to have to feel me on this one.

I feel you. I'm still out here working singles, brother. I got to play it straight. Let's leave it. Let's be honest and leave it alone. There you go. Right. Okay.

Yeah, okay. So growing up in Chicago like it did, my father loving. African-American music. And of course, you know, I heard so many of these songs as a kid on the radio. Motown was always presented as the class of this, you know, the, what do they call it, voice of Black America or Young America? I can't remember what the Motown motto was.

Yeah. Right? Young American, yeah. Yeah. But to me personally, I'm way more into the Stacks sound and the Stacks story. And Billy, I'm going to

when we were, when they were trying to find a place for us, a lot of stuff that was introduced to us had a we were actually guiding ourselves like Motown. And we were called on the carpet by Jim

and Isaac and said, listen, listen, guys, what Motown is doing is more time. More time, number one, they have more of a roster than we do. Number two, the way Barry is thinking is not the way we are thinking. Barry has his way of thinking and Isaac has his way of thinking why don't you, Sam, why don't you and Dave concentrate on not what how Barry is doing

and stop trying to get into that class and concentrate more on how Isaac is thinking for you guys and you're thinking And that's when Isaac and I started sitting at the piano. And some pictures you'll see not so much of my sitting next to Isaac, but most of the time you see me standing almost in front of him or to the side of him because he was running it down to where he wanted. He was promoting, introducing these songs to us.

us. Now, what I've turned down, some of the songs that, some of the songs that were introduced that came across, yes, I, Isaac felt though they didn't fit, so they passed on it. There are a lot of songs that came in from other, from other writers. We, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, Was it going for a hit? Who's making love? Yeah, I was what I was supposed to do it, but politics jumped in there somewhere. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, politics jumped in there. And it was not a Hayes and Porter composition. It was a home of banks. Right, right. I was supposed to have done it. Because I had laid down a track, I had laid down a guide vocal with Homer, with just piano and piano and drum. And the next thing I knew, I heard Johnny Taylor doing it.

I said, wow. But if you listen to it, good, if you know the, if you know the the voice of Homer is very clear that he was thinking Sam Moore because it's upgoor

and the song that Johnny is singing is too high for Johnny yeah right if you listen to it good now because Johnny Johnny was in the register

of like Sam and Marvin and all these people and if you listen good listen, the song that Johnny is, who's making love, the song is too high. And Homer, Homer Banks was singing the pod that was a poster, have been dating. Oh, interesting.

Okay, real quick. Let me go back to this, though. Okay. How did you feel about Motown overall? You know, the brand that they were, you know, because a lot of the music was very commercial. Yeah. I wasn't all that impressed. I liked what I heard

like from Mary Wells. I liked. I did. You know, my guy and stuff like I liked. I liked, I really liked Marvin. I liked the Timps. Because they had that gospely thing. You got what I'm saying?

Yeah. I love the tops because of Levi. Levi boy, could he say? Could he say? And I was going like, whoa, whoa, this man. What a voice.

Yeah, what a voice. And I found out that a lot of stuff, what I'm thinking I like, Barry almost didn't let it come out. Interesting. Because that's not, that was not his vision. Yeah, a lot of the stuff that Marvin did, he wasn't all that pleased with. Interesting. So to compare that to the stacks was, because you were talking about Isaac Hayes, was his vision maybe to present a more authentic voice of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

Soul music. Yeah. Yeah. His vision was to make a combination. I would, the way I was told, and it's here saying, the way I was told is that

he wanted to reach a white, a white audience. He wants to get the young white audience. Interesting. But without more authentic soul music. Right. Right. Interesting.

I've been reading Booker T's book, and he talks about whatever happened in 1968 with the change of ownership of stacks, that things really started to change of stacks. Did you feel that as well? I was going on. Oh, you're gone by then. Yeah, yeah, I was going about it. And I didn't hear him to speak about that. I was gone about that time. But it was about that time you guys now kind of get moved over to Atlantic, right?

And Jerry Wexler is now producing you. Well, we were poor bad. Yeah, we were. Yeah. When the deal collapsed, Sam and Dave were never signed directly to Stacks. They were loaned out. The deal that they had and their contract was always with Atlantic. So when the deal ended, they got pulled back and they wouldn't let at Stacks.

They wouldn't let Isaac continue writing or working with them. It was a complete because of the masters and all of that stuff. It was ugly. It was, there was... It was ugly, Billy. Yeah, Billy. So there was no recourse. Yeah, it was...

Billy, it was... I mean, even to the point of having Wexler taking us, taking us, taking us, down to muscle shows. It didn't work. Nobody really knew how to record us. The way we were singing, and the way I was

singing and stuff like that they wouldn't have recorded us that way like Isaac had a monopoly on Sam Moore I'm telling you the truth Isaac had Isaac Isaac Hayes had it

without knowing it he had got if anybody else got you all then I'm going to record you this way And we're recorded with other labels and stuff like that. We recorded with United Artists. Now, they had some good stuff on,

I had some good stuff on United Artists, some covers and some writers' stuff. I liked, I really like the stuff coming out of United Artists. I like those songs. Did they promote it? No. I liked some of those things that was done by King, with me.

Was that promoted? No. Because you know why? I was a junkie. When you say you were a junkie, when did the drug problems start for you in this story? In 1960, 67, 68. Was it just life on the road or what led you into that life? It was the Willie John thing that started it out in New York.

I was in New York at the airport. Apollo. He had just come out of prison. Bobby Schumann. Schiffman had got him out. And he was on the show of Samaday. I didn't know.

Billy, I didn't know. I had never, you know, I, you know, living in New York, you see stuff. And there were times you know, you pass by in Harlem. You see junkies on the street. Never. Would I have imagined being in that position or being like that?

I remember the first time Willie John was at Wilts Chamberlain, who used to play basketball, his club called Wilt. I was at his club, and I remember that Willie John walked in and told me to come to the bathroom, and I went to the bathroom, and he pulled this little package out. And what he did, Billy, he opened this little pouch and he took out this straw that was cut and he dipped into his bag and got this powder

and stuck it down to my nose. Ah! I don't know. Oh, what is that? He said, ah, child, another one. And he gave me another one in the other nose, nostril. Yeah, I didn't like that. because you burned first time.

And as I was going home that night in New York, I was living in New York on 107, as I was going home that night, I threw up. I threw up, Billy. I threw my guts up. And after I threw up and threw my lunch and my dinner,

my lunch, and my breakfast was up. I felt good. And I said, wow. Wow. I felt good. I could do things and say things. I had never been able to do it, but I would ever introduce or say before.

I could make love and all that stuff. Whoa, boy. And that was the beginning. That started 15 years, Billy. Wow. 15 years. How did you finally get clean? I, what happened, Billy?

I started O.D.N. Two and three times. They were where I would go after so many years. And I was O'D in. And the last time I was with George and I. And I had left Dave. And I had my first job in, in Texas. And what I had,

done, slick me, because Joyce said no, slick me. I had gone up time in Harlem, not here, in Harlem. And I got some dope, and I shot some dope. And what happened, I got on the plane to do my first job alone, as a solo artist.

And I couldn't make it the opening night. Wow. I was sick. Yeah, I OD. I had a, I don't know what you would call it today. Other words, I had a connips, my stomach, my head, you would have recognized that. And Joyce said, no, but Joyce called the doctor. And he wound up in the bathtub in ice.

Wow. And Billy, I went through back and forth after that. two or three times, and I remember that night, I said, I was in a tub of ice and I said, you know what, don't kill my stupid behind. And that's, and I can paraphrase that. I say, I'll leave it alone. No more. I won't do it.

I won't. Now, yes, I did get, but you know what? Put people to understand, you go through a struggle day by day. And you would recognize that. Yes, sir. A billy. You struggled. Your dad was 30.

Mine, you know, mine would have been about that. But mine was 15. But I struggle, but I overcome it. And being in my 42 years, Billy. Wow. Billy, I'm going to interject. There's something very important that Sam is missing. What had happened was there was a show.

Kelly Lang had a 4 o'clock new show. show on NBC in Los Angeles. And they were doing a series on addiction. And I happened to turn in quite by accident. It was a godwink, but quite by accident. They were doing a piece on opiate heroin addiction. And they were talking about this test drug called Naltrexan that was being offered at a specific facility in Oxnard. And I picked up the phone. I got the information called and was able to get Sam onto the program. He was detoxed, success. and wound up on the naltrexan. But what it happened was when we went to New York, he slipped.

And instead of taking the naltrexan, which would have blocked the opiate receptors in his brain, he shot up, then took it. And that's what put him into the spiral on the way Texas. Yeah. But after that, he wound up on neltrexan for about almost a year. A lot of the time he didn't know because I was crushing it and putting it in his food. Okay. and he's been sober ever since.

That was it. God bless. Sam, I have to go. I have to go now. Thank you so much for talking to me. It's been such an honor to talk to you about music and your life. Billy, don't let this be the last time.

Billy, let's not use this not to contact talking. Let's just be friends. How is that? I love it. I love it, Sam. God bless you both. I'd like to be you back.

I want to go to some wrestling. I want to go to some wrestling. I'm going to some wrestling. All right. I got to go. Okay. I'm going to all you to that, Billy. I'm going to hoar you to that. Okay. Talk to you both soon. Thank you so much. Thank you, brother.

God bless. God bless.