The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Scott Ian | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

Anthrax co-founder Scott Ian joins Billy Corgan to trace thrash metal from a burned-out Queens rehearsal building to arenas around the world.Ian takes Billy inside the scene’s earliest days, including his first encounters with Metallica, the historic lineup change he witnessed firsthand, and the tour he believes changed metal forever. He also recalls unforgettable moments with Ronnie James Dio and Lemmy—and an emotional Black Sabbath farewell he still struggles to talk about.The conversation turns to Anthrax’s unexpected connection with Public Enemy and the warning Ian once gave Pantera at the height of their success. With Anthrax’s first album in a decade, Cursum Perficio, Ian reflects on surviving the years when metal fell out of favor, learning the power of saying no, and watching the next generation forge its own path.Listen to the Show on all Podcast Apps "The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan" https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-magnificent-others-with-billy-corgan/id1793783665?i=1000689358669Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1Support our Sponsors:Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to Quo.com/MAGNIFICENT.Follow Billy:https://www.facebook.com/BillyCorganhttps://x.com/Billyhttps://www.instagram.com/billycorgan Follow The SmashingPumpkinshttps://x.com/smashingpumpkinSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

With Anthrax, we created an environment where we are able to do what we love and do what we want to do and have fun doing still after all this stuff. You ended up in one of the great bands, and you pioneered something that is now a global phenomenon. I always looked at it as, it's just about music that moves me. My first impression of you as person, personally, was how open-minded you were. What I'm doing is great, and everybody's just about music. should like it. Scotia, nice to see you today. Yeah, nice to see you.

Yeah, nice to see you. New album out. Tell me the title because I'm going to mess it up. You know, we found out there's no way to mess it up. Okay. It's Curseum Perficio. You're asking a lot of metal fans here. Well, yeah, and I kind of like that.

It's Latin for your journey is complete. Your journey is over. And a friend of ours who knows the head of the Latin department, at Columbia in New York, asked what is the proper pronunciation and very long story short as nobody knows. He said, proficcio would be the more ancient version of it. Perfetio would be a more modern version of it.

He goes, so basically you could say however you want. And, you know, in New Jersey, it's going to turn it a perfect go. Yeah. Oh, Pafiq. Carson Pafiq. First album in 10 years. I was surprised by that.

Because you guys have been working pretty regularly. That's kind of why. Because the last album came out in 16 and we toured it. I'm really good with this kind of. I have like a steel trap for dates when it comes to the band. This helps, yeah. We finished touring that record in November of 19. And with the intent of taking off for the holidays and then getting back together early 20

to start working on the demos and stuff and riffs. and ideas for the next record. Of course, COVID hit. And so we spent a year and a half, just like everybody else wondering, do we ever get to be a band again? Yeah. But sending demos all, you know,

working on stuff individually, but that's not how it really works for us. And so finally it was either late 21 or early 22, we were able to get in a room together and start arranging songs Charlie and Nike. But even then, that's still a long process to. Yeah. So it was, but from that point, it took us, let's say, from, it was January 1, 22.

I had the finished mastered record in my hand in November of 25. Okay. So, yeah, you sent me some stuff today and I brought you back and I said, you guys never sounded better. Thank you. And I said that with some authority because I had you guys from the first album on. So I was listening all the way back down. I can't believe it was 83. January 84 festival came out.

Okay, so I had that then. Right. You know what I mean? Because I was into, well, we'll get there. But I mean, I dove into that scene early. I was lucky because I was around people who were early and on Metallica. Right. So, you know, as soon as you find a band like Metallica, kill them all, you start going, wait, what is this?

Something's happening. You start reaching for anything connected. Sure. And thankfully, people were like, we'll check them out too. Were you at their first metro shows? That one? No, I wasn't. I was in a weird spot in my life when I was a teen

because I didn't really have any money and I wasn't living in the city. Got it. And occasionally I would go in to see shows. So I saw him, I saw him sort of right when, right the lightning was coming out. Oh, okay. And I saw Slayer on, you know, rain and bloody.

I was sort of, that was the, but just before that, I missed all that. Ah, got it. So I see those videos on YouTube. And I'm like, yeah, that's the famous one where Kirk kind of puts his guitar. Yeah, something. And then they take it. Yeah, yeah.

That's the great nightmare of all time. But like, you know, I kicked myself because I missed merciful fate. Wow, yeah. Like there's a legendary show I miss like, Merciful Fate, the Aragon Ballroom on Halloween. You're just like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. Of all things. I got the chills when you just said that.

Me too. I can imagine how great that would be. I remember being at the Metallica show, the Ride the Lightning show, um, talking to, you know, you just. metal fan, you end up talking to guy, some guy next to you. He was like, oh, I just saw merciful fate here, like, for Halloween. You're like crying. Yeah.

I still remember opening the newspaper at my aunt's house, and it was Blizzard of Oz tour and going, and I was in love with the record. Yeah, yeah. And looking and going, no one will take me. You know, just being in that place in my life. Right. Because we live far enough outside the city. It wasn't like I could walk to a show. Yeah, yeah.

You had to have a buddy or, right, you know, so. You mentioned the Aragon. I mean, did you guys, did you realize when you were going to shows there? Well, I mean, maybe not because you weren't going to shows in other cities at that time. But Chicago was like, that was the craziest place for us anyway. Like the Chicago shows were the craziest shows back then in the country. We played the Aragon the first time in 87. And that was still to this day, one of the greatest crowds we ever played.

So it lends some understanding because a lot of people, especially when we came out to L.A., which, you know, my band's always had great popularity in L.A. A lot of people were sort of confused by the band's metal side. But growing up in Chicago in that scene and seeing Inve and, you know, Michael Shanker group and Judas Priest, I mean, Rush, bands that are legendary in my home community. Right. The translation, much like I think for you to. metal into alternative. It's like, in my mind, it was all kind of the same. Yeah. And then suddenly you go, you meet some snob in New York or L.A. and they're like, you can't like Black Sabbath. And it was kind of like, I was like, huh?

What do you mean? I can't like. I literally grew up with people who worship these bands. It wasn't trendy to like Black Sabbath. Black Sabbath was like a religion for the people I grew up around. Yeah. And then you had your Yes fans, but they were stoners. And you know, you understand because you grew up in the same. Of course. I kind of want to start here, you know, because it's an interesting conversation, I think, that gets into the bigger thing that I'm after. So I indulge me here. But I think the first place to start is the back to the beginning show, which we were both blessed to be at. And for someone like you who saw Sabbath back in the day, I think you saw him 78 was the first time.

I saw him, yeah, with Van Halen. Van Hal. I'll get there in a second. But, but, I mean, did you like me have that surreal moment of like, and I knew you toured with Oz. I'm not saying it was your first time to stand there. But there we both are Sabbath's last show in their hometown, a mile from where they grew up.

And there were invited. Yeah. Like, that's a different vibe. Yeah. If you love those bands, like we love those bands. So if you could talk about that a bit. It was the greatest day of music I've ever been a part of as a fan or as a guy in a band,

it's hard not to talk about it without starting to cry or get choked up. Because just like you said, we were invited to that. When I got the email as, are we available, you know, July 5th? I was like,

are you really asking me this question? Yeah. It was unbelievable on so many levels. Yeah, I mean, even stupid little things like walking in to the stadium and seeing the dressing room sign with your band's name on it. You know, it's Black Sabbath back to the beginning and then, you know, Anthrax dressing room. You know, I took a picture of it and I took one. You know what I mean? Like it was just such a, it was just such an amazing thing to get to be a part of.

Yeah. The privilege to get to share the stage with them and everyone else that day. And the other thing, you know, I mean, they, they asked us to be a part of their bow, their, their goodbye. They felt there was a connection there that we deserve to be a part of that. And I don't know that I'll ever get my head around. Yeah. So let's go, because that sets up kind of what I'm out there. See, for me, because like I said, I didn't get to see those bands in their, in their youthful prime.

Right. So for me, everything, my conception of Ozzie, Sabbath, all these great bands was all in my head. No YouTube. You'd occasionally see them on TV. Right. There was that weird like black and blue movie member. It was like Black Sabbath and Bloister Colt, whatever that was. Right. Yeah. Okay. But you actually, there you are. Is a Madison Square Garden? I saw it at the Coliseum. Okay. So there you are at the Nassau Coliseum. Van Halen, has band, had you heard of them yet? Yes. Okay. Yes. So you kind of knew what you were walking into a little bit. Okay, and then famously Van Halen at that point was just blowing people off the stage.

Yeah. So walk, walk me through that because that sets up today's journey through your life. Sabbath was on their last, literally on their last leg with Ozzy at that point. Yeah. And this is this with Ozzy when Tony moved him to the side? It was never say Ditor, right? But isn't Ozzy off to the side? Like, there's that weird thing where Tony was like Tony's band, so Tony's in the middle now and Ozzy stood.

I don't, I can't remember. Okay, it's fine. But, but I will, if I'm being honest, me and my friends who went to that show were very much, we were excited about seeing Sabbath for the first time, but we were more excited about seeing Van Halen because at that point, they were the ones that, I mean, they were the, they were the, and so, yeah,

they were everything we wanted in getting, getting to see Eddie actually live and getting to see what he was doing. And, you know, that was just insanity. And then Sabbath came on. And I had fun and I enjoyed it. Yeah. But it wasn't, I had imagined that they were probably better like five years ago, you know,

on Master Reality or something. And, and then, of course, they, Sabbath broke up not too long. Yeah, you kind of saw them right at the, they broke up. Well, they didn't break up, but Ozzy, was out of the bank. He was ousted, yeah. Not too long after that. And then I saw them a few times on heaven and hell and, and, uh, mob rules.

But, uh, just getting to see them then was incredible. You know, when you're standing in a room with the people that you, they didn't even seem real to me. The idea of these humans, Ozzie and Tony and Gieser and Bill. And then you're standing in this arena and, you know, and there they are, you know, 50 feet away. it just seems it was otherworldly you know they were whereas van halen still felt very real in that moment because they felt very street still yeah they weren't they weren't the stadium band they were well they were but they weren't yeah actually yet yes i had the same thing when i first saw metallic i thought this is different because they feel like guys i'm going to high school with right and somehow we're on

stage the we and it felt like a we thing even slayer similar it was like these are guys i grew up with But I don't know them, but I mean, it's the vibe. It definitely felt like that. But the era we grew up in where the Sabbaths of the world were like, they were like mythical creatures. Is it strike you as funny? This is a weird leading question, but it strikes me as funny that in our minds we built these people up. Right. And then later we get to know them as human beings and we realize they're just people.

I mean, they are what they are, which they are legends. It's nothing to take away from their legend and they deserve every ounce of it. But at some point, you're like, oh, it's not. what I thought it was. And oh, by the way, they were just young guys. Right. Probably totally bewildered by the business or the, or whatever was going on. Yeah. So we all kind of meet in the middle somewhere in the 70s and 80s where we've built these bands up. And the bands can't quite live up to the hype. And this change starts to happen after the original rock dinosaurs start to kind of fade away. Right. Of course, now the music has endured

and we understand the difference. But at the time, they were kind of getting wiped out. Yeah, 100%. I mean, Van Halen case in point, you know. There's even stuff where like Van Hal opened for Kiss and was blowing kiss off the stage, right? You couldn't. You couldn't. I saw Judas Priest open for Kiss in 79. So that's unleashed in the East Times, right?

And yes, I think it was technically that band right around that is lethal. And at that point, I was already out of, kiss. My kiss window was 75 to 78. Yeah. And then the Kiss Alive 2 was like the last thing I bought and the solo albums. And then in 79, they're back, whatever that next record was. And Priest is opening. And me and all my friends, we went to see Priest and we left. We didn't even stay for Kiss. That's the assholes we were already becoming. But think about how crazy that is. So you love Kish. You see KISS in, you know, Destroyer 2 or somewhere around there, right? And I saw him on Rock and Roll Over tour and then Love Gun Tour.

I mean, peak kiss. Yeah, December 77. And within two years, you're like, eh. Well, because that next record they made, I wasn't into it. But isn't that interesting, though, like, when you look back, you're like, but that's what, that's, that's that youthful energy of like, no, I want something new. I was always looking for, me and my friends were always looking for what's, what's the next, what's the next heaviest, what's the next most aggressive thing?

So by 79, I had already, obviously, I was into Priest. I was into a lot of the British bands at that point. I love the Scorpions, too, you know, German, of course. But we couldn't believe we were getting to see Priest. ACDC, you know, was already like at the top of my list at that point. Now, sorry, but to put this in context, you were the metal fan that was going like at 4 p.m. to hang out outside by the loading dock to meet the bands. Yes.

You were that guy. Trying, trying so hard to get a good thing. You talk about some of those experiences because I know you got some cool stories. Like I like where you knocked on Ronnie James Dio's. That was one story. Yeah. Well, a friend of mine, a friend of mine tells me it was like, I think this was Mob Wools tour.

Okay. And a friend of mine tells me I can get backstage passes from Ronnie. And I'm like, bullse. Like, what? How do you know? You know, and he goes, I'm telling you. So it was kind of like that Seinfeld episode where George is driving the car. and he's with his fiance's parents

and he's taking them to the supposed cabin that he has and he refuses to give up the lie that he doesn't even have this cabin. And that's what I figured, you know what? I'm just going to go with this. I'm going to make him take me all the way out to the Meadowlands to the arena in Jersey

to finally go, aha. Yeah. And so we do. We go into the city. We go to Port Authority. We take a bus out to Jersey. We go to the Meadowlands Hilton where the band is staying.

And I'm like, he's really, really, like, stringing this along. I can't believe he let us get on the bus. Like, he's really, he really believes this is going to happen. And we walk into the Hilton and he, and we get in the elevator and we go up to a room. I'm like, what the, he's just going to knock on someone's door and he knocks on a door. And like 30 seconds later, I hear someone go, who's there. And I could tell it's Ronnie. I could hear the voice.

And he goes, Ronnie, it's Jimmy. He goes, oh, hey, Jimmy. I literally just got out of the shower. I'm in a towel. Hold on. And then an envelope comes out from under the door. And it's two laminates. Greatest day of your life.

Yeah. And I just look at him. I'm like, I can't believe this. Like, and he's like, I told you. And so we, you know, we went to the show. The show was amazing. We had first row against the, and then afterwards we were in some green room. And Ronnie was the only one who came in at the toe.

I didn't get to mean anyone else. Yeah. But Ronnie came in and, oh, you must be Scott and we talked and blah, blah, blah. And I remember the anthrax was infancy stages at that time. And I mentioned, what do you do? I play in a band. And we haven't done anything yet. We're trying.

He'll keep at it, you know, keep going, blah, blah, blah. Keep doing what you were doing. And cut to, long story short, 87, anthrax is playing Castle Donington, the Mussels of Rock Festival. And the bill that day from top to bottom was Bon Jovi, Dio, Mateo. Metallica, Anthrax, Wasp, Cinderella. And it's 80,000 people and whatever, backstage.

And I see Ronnie and I walk over and to say hello to him and he looks at me, he goes, New Jersey, mob rules, right? Metalands. You're with Jimmy. And I was like, you remember that? Well, he was like,

Dio was a mythical creature. He was like, it was only like five years ago. Like, and he goes, And I remember you telling me about your band Anthrax. It's like not a name you forget. And here you are. We're playing a show together. He's like, you did it.

You know, I couldn't believe it. That's amazing. What was it about that culture for you? I have my own Chicago impression of the color. And I'm going to loosely call it like metal culture. In a way, it was like an alternative culture. It wasn't alternative rock. But it was, it was alternative.

alternative in that you either had to be a fan and you either had to be in it and metal fans were constantly testing whether you were really in it or you were just a poser right yes what was it about that culture that attracted you so deeply uh well i mean you know obviously you spent your life in it it starts with the music that that moved me yeah the music just made me feel i didn't know what a moss pit was yet but it made me feel like i wanted to do that with my body And then, of course, when I finally started going to hardcore shows in the early 80s, I got to physically experience that. And the catharsis of that was even better than going to a metal show.

You're wearing bad. You're wearing bad, I mean, one of the greats. You know, banging my head and my fist and all that was great at shows. But then that next level of getting in moss pits and stage diving. And that was really the catharsis I had been looking for. And it's the music. It just makes me. I can't help myself.

It's almost like it's just involuntary. It's an involuntary reaction to a sound that I have no control over. Yeah. Charlie starts playing the drums. I start head banging. It's just, I can't control. Well, that's the enduring image in my mind

of watching you from the side of a stage and watching you enjoy playing. Yeah. It's hard to explain. If somebody doesn't know what that looks like, if they don't know you or know your band, but that's my enduring image of you is enjoying the show through you.

Thank you. But yeah, I loved it. And the culture was still, it was still so small. I went to a high school that had like 3,500 kids in Bayside Queens. And there was maybe eight of us that had long hair and leather jackets and rock t-shirts. And we would all sit at the same table at lunch. And someone would always have a little boombox with a cassette. And we were always trying to one up with each other every week coming in with a new tape.

Have you heard this? Like, I remember my friend David when he came in with Van Halen one and he had eruption queued up and he's like, check this out. And everyone sits there all like, okay, let's see what you got. And he starts eruption and it was literally seven jaws on the ground, you know, all the rest of us. Just play it again and again and again and again and again. And no one knew what he was doing.

Yeah. Like, and that's what we did. That's what I did all through high school. Yeah. It was me and my close-knit group of friends and that's how I met Danny Loker who I We co-founded anthrax together in 81 and started going to shows, like I said, 78, 79, and 80. Any way I had no money either. I didn't have money.

I would work any job, do anything I can just to either be able to buy tickets to shows or gear, you know, somehow. You know, buy it, go get a new fuzzboxer, save up for an amp. That was my whole life. It's all I cared about. I was going to shows and buying gear. that that was it and finding my people like-minded people like that's how i met charlie because he was a guy i would see charlie at shows before i knew him years before okay anthrax was a band and frankie you know i would see those guys that shows and turned out but 83 it turns out we had a mutual

friend and that's how the like kind they came into the band and what was it what was it about the rhythm guitar because you know as you know coming in the metal thing you know you most people want to be shredders. I wanted to be a shredder. My whole life was trying to be Inve for about two years, you know? Right. But what was it about rhythm that attracted you? I think it was, because you kind of own being a rhythm guitar player in a way that most guys don't. And when I think a rhythm guy's, Malcolm Young, obviously, and Keith Richards, right? It's like, they own the idea of like, no, I play rhythm. Right. That's what I do. Like, it's not a long lineage of guys that are a rhythm guys. And then, well, Rudolph,

Shanker. Yeah, Rudolph. Johnny Ramon. Of course. I consider, even though he plays a whole bunch of leads, Tony Iommi, consummate, you know, basically invented and created the riffs that the whole scene I came out of, you know, Tony.

Yeah. It was just a thing, I think it really comes from the fact that I didn't have the patience to sit and learn the leads when I would sit with a record and slow it down to 16 and try and learn the solos on an Aerosmith record or Kiss or ACDC or whoever, Sabbath, I would try and learn the solos and I would get frustrated and I'd try and I would try and meanwhile, I'd already know all the chords to the song. I could play the song from start to finish. I could play the rhythm guitar part. I didn't even

know it was called rhythm guitar. I was just like, I know the chords, but it's going to take me a month to learn the solo. I could learn the whole album in the time it's going to take me to it. And it really came out of that. So you could either call a laziness or just the frustration at it that I couldn't just pick that part up as quick

as I could learn the chords like that. But I couldn't learn the solo like that. And that's I just, that's what I just kept doing after that. And I guess at some point when I did realize what rhythm guitar, like, oh, Malcolm, he's the rhythm.

Oh, Angus plays all the leads. He plays the chords too, but he plays all the solos, but Malcolm's the guy playing all the chords and writing all the songs. Oh, Tony, he's playing all the chords and writing most of the songs. And, you know, Johnny Ramon, okay, he's playing all the chords and he's right, and like that's what was in my head. It's like, the guy that plays the chords writes the songs.

Of course, that didn't hold up once Anthrax really got going. Yeah. But that's, that was what was in my brain as, like, 14 and a 15-year-old, you know, trying to learn how to play guitar. All it takes is one-miss call. By the time you call back, the customers already left a competitor, a five-star review, started following them on Instagram, should have hit their kid's birthday parties. At some point, you're just like, it's time to quo.

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That's QUO.com slash magnificent. It strikes me that's a bit of a New York thing that, because your band has notoriously had about like 400 different lineups. But not really. Well, yes, I know. But I was literally reading about you. And I'm like,

and then so-and-so joined for two. months and then he let those yeah the first three years but i'm but i'm not it's not an accusation about your ban i'm saying it seems to me to be a very much in new york thing that there's a lot of people shifting bands is that seem accurate to not not to me really maybe to a chicago we've had me charlie frankie and joey have i mean with little detours here and there we've been together in a band me charlie and frankie have been together since 1984 Okay. You know.

Maybe we was just reading about the early formation. The early formation years, yeah. It was like basically, you don't have 20 bucks for the rehearsal studio. You're fired. But as I was saying, it strikes me because when we first started going to New York, we'd meet people. And it would be like, oh, so-and-so, he was in this band for two months. And then we were like, it seems so strange to us. I get that.

Okay, that's what I'm saying. It seemed like a New York scene thing that there was a lot of moving around. I get that. And I think that was already, that was because that was already at a time where, there was no scene when we started in 81. There was zero metal scene. There were two metal bands in New York playing original songs,

us and Overkill. Wow. Like, that was it. There was no scene at all. And we couldn't get gigs. Nobody would book us unless we played covers. So there wasn't even people from, actually though, Danny Spitz,

our lead guitar player, original lead guitar player, was in Overkill before he was in Antwer. So to your point, yes, okay. I agree. It's just a curiosity question. It's just a curiosity question. It's coming from Chicago, which is very parochial,

when we would go to New York, we were like, you would meet people and be like, I was in this band for two months and then this band, and we were like, everybody had a resume. Yeah, there was so many more bands at that point. Yeah. In every scene, in hell and punk and alternative and everything, there's so many more bands.

I love that, correct me if I'm wrong, but the name was chosen because it sounded sufficiently evil, Is that accurate? Danny Loker walking home from school one day says, I learned about this crazy thing in like biology called anthrax today, this spore and it could be used in biological warfare and all lists. And he says this is a crazy thing to learn about. And I was like anthrax, anthrax.

Sounds like a good metal band name. And I said to him, I said when your band white heat breaks up, because I wanted a former band with Danny, but he was in, which was, of course, from the Judas Presum, White Heat, Red Hot. I was going to say. And I wanted to be in a band with Danny,

but he had a band, which was already, we were in Queens, and his band would play in the, like, Manhattan, which was a big deal at the time, playing originals, like in 1980. And all I wanted to do was be in a band with Danny. And I said, when White Heat breaks up, you and I'll start that band called Anthrax.

And he's like, white heat's not breaking up, six months later, of course. See, to my point. Yeah, that's where, But that's where you guys have a, did you have a vision? This is 81ish early days. But like, did you have a vision of what you want to sound like? Because it's always interesting to me when bands don't know where everything is going.

So is there an original like, gee, if we could sound like that or we're? In 1981, it was all about Iron Maiden and Motorhead for us. Priest two, of course, we used to open our show with Danny would play. prelude on the piano and then we'd go in the tyrant because nobody even knew we would play like a church basement and people thought it was an original like it was hard to get it was hard especially those early priest records they were all on import and stuff it was hard to get those records i found we would go to bleaker bobs and greenwich village and he had that's the advantage of living in york chicago was like you had to have a buddy that was ordering a mail order and

yeah but yeah motorhead and maiden were the main two things and we were like if those bands had a baby but a really terrible baby like really challenged in many ways that's we were trying our best yes um there's the apocryphal meeting of metallica they're coming in to record is it megaphores is it label yeah and you guys kind of met them at the curb and is that is that a true story it is it is uh we were rehearsing at the music building in Jamaica, Queens, which was basically a burnt out office building that someone had the bright idea, oh, well, this could either be a squat or I could rent it to bands. Yeah. So for 300 bucks a month, you had 24-7 access to a room. And yeah, so Johnny Zee,

John Zazula, who started Mega Force Records and he was also, he had signed us, Metallica, and this band from Newcastle called Raven from New Wave of British. heavy metal days. And so he was bringing Metallica in from the Bay Area to come to New York, rehearse for a while, then go up to Rochester to record Kill them all. They had a, he some, Johnny knew nothing about, it wasn't like he was some music business guy. He knew nothing other than he had an import record stand in a flea market in Old Bridge, New Jersey. And he loved the music and he loved the scene around it. Like, and it was like, He loved metal and he loved the hard rock.

He also loved the Grateful Dead. I always forgave him for that. But he, and the people that would come to his record stand on the weekends, it was only open on the weekends at this indoor flea market thing down in Old Bridge, New Jersey. It was like a scene and people would come hang out there. And he saw something happening, you know. And so when he got that No Life to Leather Demo, and I remember being at the store on a Saturday because me and Danny would drive down from New York and I'm at the

store and he's like why go wait do you hear this where do you hear this tape I got this band called Metallica from San Francisco and I'm like cool cool but also already feeling jealous like because pay attention to anthrax over here because Johnny was the guy to know Johnny was the guy who brought Raven and Anvil to New York yeah to play shows together Johnny was bringing venom over to play shows. Oh, okay. He already was like, I'm going to promote shows for bands and nobody, the big promoters don't pay attention to and I'm going to get this music heard and we're like, this is the guy we need to hitch our wagon to. And so he puts No Life to Leather on in the store and instantly, I mean, the guitars. I was like, oh. What's the first song? Do you remember? I think it was hit the lights

maybe. Just like on the album. Once you hear that sound, that riff comes in and, uh, And the guitars, I was like, oh my God, this is like, this is like better than Motorhead. And that was blasphemy, right? I thought that. I was like, this is even better. And a lightning bolt came down. Listen to these guitars. I mean, and I was like, these guys are so far ahead of us already.

And, you know, it was like, whatever it was, four or five songs. And I said, can I have that? And he goes, it's my only copy, but I'll run you one. Wow. So he ran me a copy. And, yeah, and then like me, a little girl, like, man, we got to get to work. Like, I love to pause time occasionally. Think about that.

So there you are. You don't know who this band is. And you're hearing what we're now, one of the great bands of all time. But all you know, it's just some band. Yeah, you know what I mean? And your first reaction is like, what the fuck? Yeah, unbelievable. It was like someone had made it for me.

Like, someone had decided this, this. This is the best possible combination of sounds for Scott. He will love this more than anything he's heard up until this point. And it's exactly what it was. I mean, I never heard anything as powerful as that demo. And thankfully, you know, about a million kids turn around and agree. I mean, it was just so entire. Again, I'm getting the chills thinking about it.

The two guitars, like, were so insane, you know, Mastain and James, the two guitars were so tight, left and right, you know, and their rhythm tones. and everything about it. Oh, my God, and the riffs. And then the, you know, the bass player, like, what the fuck is that guy doing? You know, it's like, you know,

it was just incredible. And then Johnny said, so I said, wow, that's like, they're amazing. They're, what are they doing, you know? And he goes, they play local shows, you know, they play around the Bay Area. I think they're going down to L.A. to play, like, they're going to open for Saxon.

And, you know, they was like they had little things going on here and there. He goes, He goes, I'm going to, I'm going to get them a record deal. I'm taking this to New York and I'm going to all the labels and I'm going to get them a record deal. I'll be the manager. And I was like, well, that's amazing. Of course, famously, he sat in every A&R guy's office and they all sat there like this and kicked them out of the office. So he decided, all right, nobody wants this.

I know the world needs this. I'm going to start a record label. I was like, how do you, you know, this is like weeks later. you know how to do that how you start a label he goes no no but i'll i'll figure it out and johnny was not a wealthy man at all you know straight middle middle class like he took a little money he had and he figured out how they could go to they found a studio up in rochester it was called barrett alley i believe at the time and uh i made a deal with the guy who owned the studio and yeah, I guess obviously affordable

where he knew I could put Metallica in a U-Haul, get him to New York, get him a room at the music building, Scott's going to help me with that, and then they're going to rehearse, they're going to play some local shows in the area, which Anthrax played with Metallica, and then they're going up to Rochester to record Kill Mall. Did you go to some of those sessions?

Not up in Rochester, no. But I was in the music building with them for months. Yeah. You know, when they got to New York, I was the guy. Me and Danny were the guys greeting them at the music building. We were the ones who had to basically tell them because they asked, and where are we staying? And I was like, oh, Johnny didn't. Well, as far as I know you guys are staying here, and this was nowhere you wanted to stay, you know, cold, all the cold water taps in the disgusting bathrooms.

And, you know, it was a burnt out squirt. lot of a building. And, uh, and they lived there for a couple of months. We would take them back to our houses to shower, if you know, we would, we gave them our toaster oven that we had in our room. We gave them the refrigerator we had in our room. We were like, you guys needed more than we do right now. And, um, yeah, we were the, so, and I used to sit in the room with them at night, uh, when they would start, because those guys drank. We didn't drink in anthrax, none of us. James back then. And, and oh, yeah, must say we're a big drinkers. Those guys, all of them. Those guys hit it hard. And so this was like a new thing for me. I didn't even know this. So like,

those, these guys, you know, they would wake up mid afternoon and like they wouldn't even start jam until like late in the afternoon or early evening. Like, they would start rehearsing. And so we'd already be done. And then I would just go to their room and sit in there. And it was, they were the first band I ever saw rehearsed where they had the drum kit, you know, who was against the wall facing into the room. But they didn't set up their amps like, a backline like you were playing a show, they set the amps up in a semicircle facing Lars in and they would stand in that middle zone where the guitars were just tearing your heads off and I would sit in that little zone while they were playing in between James and Dave's

stacked so I was getting hit by both of them like equally and I would just be like, this is, these guys are the best. Like their hands, you know, the best. Yeah. both their ability as rhythm players and the downpicking. And it's just like, man, this is, it's a, it's another level. I had never felt anything like that. So it's interesting, right? So there you are. Literally, you know, they're totally unknown.

Yeah. By every other metric. And you're in the middle of the circle with two visionary guitarists. And Cliff Burton, who was another level onto, you know what I mean? Like these guys are it's super tight and all that And then you got this guy over here In his jean jacket with a skinnered pin In his in his flared jeans

With his big Morleywa You know playing with his fingers And seemingly Sometimes it's almost like he was Playing nothing to do with the song they were playing But it made complete sense Yeah I had never seen anything like that either

It was like this is like It's like the reincarnation even though Gieser, of course, was not dead, but it was a new version of Gyser Butler playing in this much more up-tempo, fast and intense metal sound. And Cliff banged his head in rehearsal like he was playing to a stadium full of people, too. That was the other thing. Like, he went forward in rehearsal like it was a live show.

So looking back at you then, does it surprise you that they both went on to have such distinguished? No, no surprise at all. you just, it's not like I had that experience with 10 other bands. Like, oh, I just happened to be sitting in the room with, with Glenn Tipton when he did this or, you know, like, I'm not the zealig of heavy metal, but like, you just always knew, even in those earliest days, even when, like, they went out and opened for Raven in the summer of 83 in the States,

and they were crushing them every night. And, you know, and then they got the Ozzy tour in 86, you know, and especially then because Ozzie was cool enough to say, these guys deserve it, I'm going to share my stage with Metallica, their first time out in arenas. Because people always ask, how did your scene,

and I think after so many years of being able to look back on it, the moment when that scene, Metallica, Us, Slayer, Megadeth, Exodus, and so on, the thing that really opened the door was in 80s, when Metallica opened for Ozzy because Metallica had already gone out, obviously in headline clubs and all that, and we had done that,

and so it's Slayer and Megadeth, but we were banging on that door to get out and play arenas. And nobody, nobody would have us, nobody. And then Ozzy opened that door from Metallica. And they went out on that tour and got to play to 15,000 people every night, opening for Ozzie.

And maybe people heard of them, you know, maybe people didn't. But I can say that's middle America, yeah. Everybody, everybody went and bought Metallica records the next day because Killem All, Ride the Light and Master of Puppets were all out. And everyone ran to their record store and bought a Metallica record. And then the trickle down from that into us and Slayer and Megadeth, people are like, oh my God, is there more of this?

Well, that's how I found you. I mean, you know what I mean? Like I said, I was listening to Kill Em All with some guy doing bong hits every five minutes. Right. And invariably go, there's got to be more of this out there. Uh-huh. Because, you know, once you exhaust what was already out there with Metallica, there was a couple bootlegs. And you're like, there's got to be other people.

And then suddenly you're listening to, you know, chronos and, you know, whatever. And people started check out this import and it's all, you know, some of the production was dredged, awful. Right. You know, you couldn't, but it was the vibe was there. The vibe. Taking a step back, is it true you were there The day Mustang was fired and that whole I showed up that day

I walked in, it was like early afternoon and Cliff was standing outside smoking a cigarette And hey man, he's like, hey Said, what's going on? Oh, not much We fired Dave He's on a Greyhound back to California Wow And Cliff was kind of like a very dry

ball buster. Yeah. So, oh, yeah, right. Sure. He goes, no, I'm totally serious. I'm like, you're not going to get me. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, right. You're playing Lamours on Friday with Vandenberg. I think that's who they were like, whoever. There's a name I haven't heard for a while. They had like some gig like that in three days or four days. They had some show coming up. And he goes, bro, totally serious.

He goes, go ask James and Lars. okay I'm figured I'm gonna go and they're gonna be like what or I'm gonna walk in Dave's gonna be the sleep in his sleeping bag you know and uh I go up to the room and I don't see Dave yeah and and I said the Lars just told me you guys fired Dave and he's like we did we did I was like what the you know like oh my God like was this like a long time coming or like what yeah what the you know and they were like Like, we'd been thinking about it pretty much since we got to New York. And, you know, everybody knows the story.

I don't need to get into, you know, all of that. I just think it's interesting. You're sort of witness to history. I was there. And I was, well, what are you going to do? You know, you've got a gig. We have gigs. We're playing shows with them.

You know, we have gigs coming up. Because for my own selfish reasons, please don't cancel these shows. And then we already got a guy. He's this guy, Kirk from a band called Exodus in the Bay Area. He's literally flying in. Like, you know, we might need a ride. Could you pick him up? I turned out there, guy Mark, who was with them, picked him up.

But, yeah, I met Kirk like the next day. You know, Kirk will be here tomorrow. He's already learning the songs, and he's just going to jump right in. Yeah, wow. I didn't know this fun fact. Your first 45, Soldier of Metal, sorry, was produced by Ross, the boss of Man of War. Yes. Death to False Metal.

And the dictators, of course. Yeah. We became friendly with Ross. I was a big fan of Ross's from the dictators because, you know, those guys were like New York's finest for a small moment in time. And, you know, that was like whatever, late 70s probably. But, yeah, Man o' War, that first album. I did like that first album. I will admit, they kind of lost me after that.

But there's something about that first record. There's something about Manor, right? And Johnny Z was, no pun intended, a big champion of Manor war. And he was really pushed them. I think he did the first Manor shows in New York City he promoted. But yeah, we were friendly with Ross. We met through a mutual friend. And we were constantly making demos.

Anytime we had another song or two written, we would make a demo, give it to Johnny Z. and he would critique it, you know. And then so I remember talking to Ross saying, we need help. Like, we make these demos, but they always sound like, they never sound like we want them to sound. How come my guitar sounds good to me coming out of my cabinet?

But then we record it and it sounds this big and it's like, and he's like, oh, I could help you with that. I know how, I know, I know how to mic a guitar and all these things. And I was like, cool, cool. So this demo we did with Ross, which we started before. Charlie was even drumming and then Charlie joined the band and then that's Charlie on the song, Soldiers of Metal.

On the B side of that single was the original, the older drummer, Greg. But yeah, Ross produced that five-song demo, which was the demo that got assigned to Megaforce. Oh, that's cool. So you guys are routinely name-dropped in the Big Four or whatever they could. There's some sort of term. Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax. And maybe because I was there. and I was listening in the early days.

You know, I'm just some, you know, future goth with long hair. But it does, it does, I do find it amusing that this music that seemed to come from the underground, whatever underground means anymore. Metallic is a stadium band. Slayer's still one of the greatest bands. Of course. Ever. I mean, go see Slayer now.

It's still like, oh, my God. how do these guys play like this? I saw a Slayer when they were breaking up the last time, whatever, you know, the farewell tour. I saw them in Romania and like Omaha or something. And I know Tom Araya a little bit and I brought Jimmy Chamberlain from the Pumpkins to see them. And Jimmy had never seen. It wasn't necessarily a fan. And I was like, trust me.

Yeah. And about five times during the show, Jimmy looked at me. It was like, holy mother of God. And I said, it's why I was trying to tell you, there's only one slayer. Like, whatever that is is that. Yes. And, you know, great drums and all that. Yeah.

Anyway, so, and then I saw I'm in Romania, which would have been like five shows before they were stopping. And they were better and tighter and faster. And I was like, and I said to Tom after the show, how does that work? Like, how can you be tighter and faster in Romania than you were like two months? and go in Omaha, like, huh? You know, Tom, he's just like, I don't know, bro. You know, he's like the most unassuming guy. Right.

You caught him on a good night. I guess what I'm trying to say, besides pontificating as a fan, is what was it about these bands that were essentially nobody's at some point? I mean, like you said, the music business couldn't have given to shit about any of you guys. Right. Because there's nothing commercial. Right. Especially early Metallica.

Like, you don't listen and go, oh, there's the hit. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Even I, as a fan who was listening from the beginning, was surprised that James could write songs like The Unforgiven or something. It's like, well, what is that? Where's that coming from? Right.

But what do you think it was about that that translated upward over time to where it's now institutional? I mean, it's an accepted thing. You know, you ended up in one of the great bank. and you pioneered something that is now a global phenomenon. Metal, I mean, people say whatever they want about guitar music and alternative is like, you know, we had 20 years there where nobody wanted to hear a guitar and alternative music for whatever reason. But in terms of metal, metal's never been stronger or bigger or more powerful than it is

right now, I would argue. Yeah, we know, we feel it certainly. And, you know, and obviously we see the numbers. You see your ticket sales and go, wow, Lord, you know, we're playing. And just to be fair, I was also there, I think I remember seeing you guys play with maybe Slayer and Pantera somewhere along the way. Is that sound accurate? We toured with, we toured with Pantera 97, 98, and of course with Slayer. I mean, we've done. But I feel like I saw you guys on some, but anyway, you would know, it doesn't matter because there's all those bills. But the point is, is I remember seeing, you know, Pantera at their 90s peak and then going to see a show with Slayer and it was a half full arena.

Yeah. It seemed like nobody gave a shit. was over and even the bands could kind of feel that. So you've seen it all go from nothing to the highest heights Metallica black album couldn't have been any bigger to metal bands sort of struggling during the grunge times like even Metallica wearing makeup. You know what I mean? It's like right. But what do you, I guess I'm asking a weird question, but what do you think it was about the thing that you saw at the beginning? And you saw it as a, right, as a fan as a musician that is now translated to what it is now.

I used to just think it was because I was just such a persistent prick, just like, what I'm doing is great and everybody should like it. But, you know, I just think we really did have all the bands you've mentioned and more bands that for some one reason or another didn't make it out of the 80s. But there was, I just think we all made our marks so deeply on the planet at one point in time. Everyone had that one album that did it.

For us, specifically, it was among the living. When that came out in 87, let me backtrack, when we were writing that record, and we had Indians and I'm the Law and caught in Amash, and we were writing these songs, we knew we had something, certainly better than what we had done previously, Spreading the Disease was a great, second album, great record. But now we've got these songs out of these. These are better than anything on that record.

We've taken a huge leap forward. Charlie, our drummer, who from that point in time, towards the end of the spreading of disease sessions, became the guy writing probably 90% of the riffs. Oh, wow. Because I became the guy writing lyrics because we had a different singer on our first album. And then he wrote all the lyrics.

and once he was he was out after the first tour who's writing the lyrics and I was just like I'll try it was like being there like nobody told me geezer wrote the lyrics so it wasn't that strange nobody told me I couldn't so I figured why not I'll try but anyway

Charlie had really come into his own going into that among the living record and the demos I was like these songs are insane like we knew we had something and that hadn't happened I didn't have that feeling before. I loved fistful of metal and spreading the disease and I thought things were cool and we're making

our way forward as a band. But then with Among the Living, I was like, this is undeniable. Stepping outside myself and listening as a fan thinking, this is great. This means something. Master of puppets from Metallica,

raining blood for Slayer and for me it was making the second album. People always argue that second or third album but uh for me um but we all we all made our marks with a record that resonated so deeply i feel like it for it's generational it's they became these records that were just like they were they became must-habs and i know for us since among the living even through the hardest times in the 90s um we've been able to have a career as long as we wanted one and do it however we want to do it and call the shots and and it's never changed

since 1987 yeah i remember because i i was listening and uh and tell me because you were there i'm just a guy listening on the other end but it struck me there was something uh because when you talk about identity right right there was something about whatever corner you turned around that time that felt like you were bringing together you were you were bringing together you your set of influences your own way. And it was, the way I thought it was, it felt to me very New York. And there were other bands around like prong and,

you know what I mean? Like, there was a New York take on metal that was New York. Right. Can you, Right. Okay. I remember seeing Helmet, like, I think we opened for Helmet in 89.

Or I was at the show. I can't remember. You know, it's all blurs. But the point is, at least from my vantage point, listening in Chicago, I was like, they're finding this kind of New York thing, which is very different than what you would call the West Coast version of it, the Slayer Metallica. It felt like the street of New York, maybe. Maybe there was the coming of the rap and that scene.

Can you talk about that? Or was it maybe just being in it? I'm having trouble finding the words, but I know that whatever it was, I recognized that there was something different about. about you. Sure. And I think because like helmet prong bands like that that started coming like later 80s. Is it a simple? It almost was in a way of simplicity. Yes. That's not to say it lacks musicality. And that comes from the hardcore scene. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. That's what I was after. Yes. All of a sudden it felt like you guys got clear somehow. Yes. The big thing that changed for us was we had made our first album and that album was mostly songs that were written even before Charlie was in the band before, you know, they were songs that were very early songs, most of them.

And then, you know, Joey Belladonna joins in 1984. And at that point, I'm going to hardcore shows every Sunday at CBGBs. I'm at every Sunday matinee. If I'm home, I'm there. And because in 82, I went to my first true punk show. I saw The Exploited first time I saw a Mosch, but I'd seen the Ramones in the 70s, but it was at Queens College. I was a teenager.

It was a completely different thing. I go see the exploited in 82 at Great Gildersleaves, which is the club that should have been as famous as CBGs. It was literally a block north on the Bowery, but nobody knows about it because it closed so long ago. But everybody played Gilder Sleeves. All the same bands you hear about from the CB scene were also playing there. Okay.

Anyway, I see the exploited there in 82, and I'm up in this little crow's nest they had with Danny Looker and the first singer Neil from Anthrax. And I see slam dancing for the first time. And I'm like, I got to get in there. And I start climbing down to get in there. And Neil grabbed me. And he's like, you can't go in there.

You'll get the kicked out of you. And I'm like, why? He goes, because the skinheads don't like long hairs. And of course, that made no sense in my, I didn't know what that meant. Then, of course, I found out it was true later on when I became friends with lots of skinheads. And I asked them about that.

And they were like, yeah, I was at that show. I probably would have beaten you up for being there at the time. And, but, yeah, it was the hardcore scene. Charlie and I and Frankie all got really in the hardcore, and especially the New York hardcore scene, agnostic front and Kromags and Murphy's Law. Chromags. Adrenaline overdose and on and on, the crumb suckers and on and on.

Sorry, just because, so the Chicago version, right, you know, because I was hanging out with a lot of skinheads and punks too. and suddenly it was like there were those people that were really into the Cromags it was almost like a religion and I would listen and be like I don't get it

and it was like almost like I was saying something heretical right like what was it about Cromag's fans they were like so they were probably the hardest band like at the time and it attracted

don't get me right it's not like Agnostic Front wasn't hard to tell no I'm saying but it was something about Kromag's fans. Yes. Well, I think, yes, it probably just came from Harley because Harley, their bass player, Harley Flanagan, he had such a personality and such an attitude. And, you know, I went to shows all the time and I knew him enough kind of peripherally where I was okay as a long

hair going there and we would talk and say hi. And I never had, I never gave him a reason in the 80s to beat me up. Like, you know, I was smarter enough to, you stay on a certain dude's way. And that, of course, attracted a certain type of fan as well. And it wasn't to say that a Cromag's pit was people punching each other because it wasn't. Because if you started doing that at a Cromag show, the skinheads would beat you up and throw you out. It was, you know, that scene that at that time was very small, close-knit, you'd go down in that pit and you dance. And it's not about throwing elbows and throwing fists and all that. But yeah, they definitely had the most intense pits. Like, I would get nervous going to see the crow mags on a Sunday because I pretty much knew I'm

coming out of this bleeding from somewhere, like for sure. And with a smile on my face, at the same time. But you always knew at some point you're going to catch an elbow accidentally or catch a foot or something. And it was all part of the fun, actually. You've distinguished yourself. You're on the ride. Now you start getting these gigs. You're opening for Sabbath, when in the weird times, seventh star, which is like my most puzzling

what's going on with Tony at that time. Yeah. Sabbath with Tony Iommi or Tony Iommi Sabbath. We heard a story that that was supposed to be, it was just going to be a Tony Iommi record. It was going to be solo. Tony told me that story. They told them it's just going to be a solo record.

And then when the album came out, they kind of swerved them. Yeah. And they said, let's put the name on it because they sell more copies. Yeah. But how was it, how can I put it? Was it weird for you, A, your opening for your heroes, but your heroes aren't necessarily, in this case, in the Sabbath moment.

It's like they're not in the best spot. It wasn't our Black Sabbath. But it was still Tony. Yeah. And at some point, Gieser was in that line up. But I went through that too, where I would, you know, when I was the only member of my band for a while. and I would have bands open from you. You could tell you they were fans,

but they didn't really give what I was doing, and it wasn't really pumpkins to them. So I dealt with it the other way. Got it, yeah. Yeah, we were just so thrilled. I mean, you know, we probably got the call about those shows in like late 85, I would assume, or something.

And, you know, all we know is we're getting to go out on a six-week run with Black Sabbath in like the spring of 86. Yeah. And we see, you know, the Meadowlands, the Brendan Byrne Arena is on the list. And we're like, we can't believe this, you know, it's our first arena shows.

Yeah. So even though it wasn't the Aussie lineup, it wasn't the Dio lineup, we love Glenn Hughes, you know, the guy was one of my favorite singers. And it's Tony. So our whole attitude was just like, it's Black Sabbath, you know, we don't care. And he's giving us the chance to come out and do this with him. And, yeah, we're. We only, the tour only lasted for us.

It was supposed to be like six weeks. And I think we did six shows. And then it kind of fell apart. I think they did a few more shows after we went home. And then the whole tour came down. Because, I mean, we played to, we were on first. It was Anthrax Wasp Black Sabbath. So we were on first.

And even in New Jersey, which was probably the best selling show of that run. I think they did maybe $8,000 or something, half house. you know, we still played the 3,000 people that night. So even though it's a lot of empty seats, we were the glass-half-half kind of guys of, well, that's way more people than we play if we were headlining in New Jersey tonight. My first, I can't pin when I first met you.

We've run each other many times through the years, but my first thought of you, because, of course, you're the guy in the metal band. My first impression of you as person, personally, was how open-minded you were. Where most metal guys were kind of like, they lived in metal world. Right.

And if you were in metal world, like you kind of didn't exist. Yeah. Even if they knew who you were, they'd be like kind of a vibe. Right. And you were the first metal musician I'd ever met that was like curious, interested.

Right. You knew kind of what was going on with some of the alternative bands. Sure. And I was like, oh, this is not the normal cat. Ah. So that's a compliment. But, but, but, no, I take it as a compliment, sure.

But, and even feeding into when you work with public enemy, I think one beautiful thing about your musical life is that even though you so were, you were so passionate about hard rock and basically part of the pioneering group that created thrash metal or whatever we want to call it. Sure. Institutional metal. Because it is institutional at this point. But I was, but I, but I, but I think it's a, it's a great service to you. that somehow your openness, it not only infused your musical life,

but it also sort of made you a unique person in the musical community. Is that a fair thing to say? Sure. Yeah. I definitely came from the scene where killing posers, you know, was a badge of honor. Paul Beiloff, the original singer of Exodus famously, you know, kill posers. And I don't know that he actually ever murdered anybody, But I would hear stories from Gary from Exodus where Paul would whip out a switchblade if he saw like a kid at a show with a rat shirt, you know, say. And he would give the, he would like take that off.

And if the person would say no, he would take his knife and cut the shirt off him. Like, and I love that from afar. I like being a fan of that, as ignorant as that is. It's not, I never, I never took it that far. But I definitely had my time. There was a moment in time in the early 80s where it was all about, it was only metal and hardcore. But at that same time, I loved rap music as much as I loved metal.

From the first time I heard Run DMC, it hit me as hard as Slayer, as Harder. Their voices together created this sonic thing that moved me in the exact same way, as all the other music I loved. And we were, we sat there that one day with, with Runnin, he was literally saying he was inspired by Judas Priest. Oh, with Darrell, with DMC. Yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah. I mean, so even that beautiful sort of connection. Yeah.

Where he was saying, we were trying to get the feeling of that. So for me, it was like, I always looked at it as it's just about music that moves me. But you know how rare that is. Of course. In the metal world. And there's so many. others like that whether because of all this I grew up with like even stuff that was more my my parents music I've loved Elton John since I was like seven or eight years old still to this

day yeah I even love the stuff that people like I love like I guess they that's why they call it the blues like and I know you're a real that's you're a real fan I'm like I just have such a soft spot for it for some reason and but so much music I've always been open-minded. I loved disco in the 70s because of the groove. The groove of it was undeniable. The musicianship, those dudes playing bass and guitar. You mean, you know.

I loved all kinds of music. Of course, I kept it quiet a lot because I was the metal guy. But you know how rare in the metal community it is that they give a shit about anybody outside the metal community. Very rare. The only people I've ever met that really, do pay attention outside is you and Lars. Right. Where they actually are fans of other types of music and are supportive and actually,

and I'm not saying James Hetfield doesn't like me or my band. James has always treated me, but you got the feeling James really only like Whalen Jennings and. Right. And Sabbath. Yeah. Yeah, whatever obscure metal band is. Right, right.

You got that feeling when you're talking to him. You know, there's kind of a glaze when you start talking about your world. because your world is not their world. It's funny, and I get that, and I totally get what that comes from, because stereotypes do come from the reality of things. And most 90-something percent at least of metal dudes, fans, guys and bands I've met in my whole life are that guy. Like, I only listen to this.

I only eat this. I only, you know, that's who they are, and God bless them. But, yeah, but there's a lot of us who looked at the burgeoning alternative scene when that first started happening in the 80s, whether it was James or whoever. Like, I remember seeing James at a place called The World, like in downtown in the city on the first record, I think. They had 87, really? Yeah, they hadn't blown up yet. And I thought they were amazing. And that's when, like, Dave and Perry made out on stage.

And I'm, like, me and maybe like two other people I knew in the audience were metal people. And it was, I didn't know who all these other people were. Like, how do they know about this band? And I knew about it because they'd see it in the record store. And it's like it had a heavy guitar on it. So I gave it a chance. And, and I thought they were amazing. But then I also, there was the myth and the, the stereotype of people from alternative bands,

hated metal because they thought we were cavemen and then of course I would meet everyone I would meet in bands that was never

the case so where I was leading with this line of thought was you know because we were at Q Prime in the 90s

Metallic was there they're still kind of there I guess but but you know watching you know the number one metal band

and the world sort of struggle with alternative, you know, where you guys, because of your connection to public enemy and you're, you being open to be on MTV, like, I think you guys made a much easier transition into the 90s. Yes and no. I mean, the bottom fell out business wise for a while, but we just, you know, we just kind of put our heads down and went to work. But I went back and listened to some of the 90s stuff and, and, and I thought, I guess what I'm trying to say is connect the two concepts between your openness as a musician and as a person, I think in a way better set you guys

up for what happened in the 90s, musically. Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I listen to your musical output of the 90s, you're certainly on some level of being influenced by what's going on, but it wasn't like you guys got lost. Right. Sure. You still made very credible music. There was that period there where Metallica was like it got a little... It changed a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I was empathetic because like, here I am a fan from the beginning, and I know them a little bit, we're in the same management company, but at the same point, I was like, you know, there's this big world out here of other, other core changes, you know, it's not all riffs, you know. Right. Yeah, I mean, as a Metallica fan,

I definitely, and as a, as a friend and knowing those guys and stuff, yeah, I mean, you could see the shift. And I think for me, I always just looked at it as, well, they'd done, they had done this, style from Killem All the way through the Black album, even though the Black album is a different entity, the Black album certainly isn't Ride the Lightning, but there's still a lot of thrash elements in the Black album, even though it's got, you know, I think Inter Sandman is one of the greatest thrash riffs of all time,

and it's also one of the most commercial, you know, earworm pop hook songs I've ever heard. That's why they're Metallica. They figured that out. Yeah, they cracked that code in a big way. And so I figured they spent a decade doing this thing. And now it's like 1993 or 94, whenever that was when load and then reload.

And it made total sense to me that they decided to make a turn, you know, and say, we've got all these other ideas. We're not just one thing. We've kind of proven that now with the album that's still 20 million copies. You know, like we've proven that we could do something that isn't just a straight up thrash record. Yeah. We don't have to write eight-minute songs like we did on the previous ones on, Jesus Christ, I'm such brainfarts right now.

And justice for all. Yeah. You know, we could do something different. We could move more into the hard rock, like where we came from. Yeah. Before we even knew what thrash metal was because those guys were listening to all the stuff I listened to in the 70s. Like, you know, when priests got pretty far afield into the pop and they were using scents and stuff.

I hated that. Turbo lover is kind of good. But that grew on me. Okay, but what did they do? They kind of retooled and they came back with painkiller. Right. And reflexed. Yes.

And made a prime, yes. Incredible metal record. Batalika kind of went into this weird, you know, where are we going kind of thing. And I told a story once in public, but I was backstage with Pantera. and they were, it must have been the load or somewhere around there where they were sort of talking very negatively about Metallica. You know, and I was like, look, you guys are the hottest metal band in the world, arguably the best metal band in the world right now. Yeah. Just worry about you.

And they all look at me like I had four heads because, you know, I'm the alternative guy. Right. You know what I mean? But my point was saying it was like, look, Metallica will figure it out. Like, don't be hard on them. It's okay. Yeah. Let Metallica figure it out because they're Metallica.

You guys stay focused on what you're doing on. Like, you're winning right now. But as we all know, it doesn't always last. That's kind of what I was trying to tell them. Be happy with where you're at and understand that they're on a unique journey because they've done all that stuff already. Yeah. Yeah. But it is.

I agree with that 100%. But it's fun to play like, you know, fantasy baseball. It's like, what if Metallica had decided, okay, we're going to go back to, you know what I mean? Right. Old school. Yeah, right. away the next album. I always looked at it as, you know, if any, all of us bands did things the way we wanted to do them. We only made our own decisions. We weren't listening to any

outside, you know, voices. And, and certainly Metallica, who, you know, business-wise, were in a position where they didn't even have to worry about at that point the money side of it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes there were times like, Well, we have to go do this right now because... With Cliff and Peter in charge, they weren't worried about it. You know, sometimes it's like back then, I remember like, I remember, well, we got to go do this run because we all have families or bills to pay or whatever in the case.

Yeah. And Metallica had already had that creative freedom, that level where that's not even an issue. And I think they decided, well, it's not a flash in the pan doing this load and reload thing. Maybe, you know, we need to explore it. We need to see this through. Why not? Yeah. You know, it certainly, it didn't affect them, you know.

We're sitting here in 2026 and they are the biggest metal band in the world. Well, you could argue right now they might be the biggest. Biggest bands in the world. It might be the biggest band of the world. You know, I mean, you know, they're, who else would it be? Them in ACDC and the Stones. But who can go out and play two, two stadium shows in a city and play two totally different sets? Probably the Stones.

I would, I would guess. At this point. Right. Yeah. I would guess. Talk a little bit about, I just, I don't remember the exact years, but there was this period where you were on MTV a lot. Yeah. Like you were hosting, but you were also, they were putting you in a lot of stuff.

And how did that all kind of come about? Oh, yeah. So you're talking about like, not like in the 80s when they were still playing videos on Headbangers Ball. Like, you're talking about like, there was a period of time. I just feel there was like a time where suddenly you were on TV a lot. There was. starting in 2000, 2001, I got offered to host this show on VH1 called Rock Show, which was their version of Headbangers Ball at the time.

And it was a great gig. I had a blast doing it. They flew me to New York every week to do it, which I thought was crazy. It was like, we can't find a studio in L.A. I literally flew 48 times. I'd fly on the Monday, tape Tuesday, fly home Tuesday night. I did that 48 times over like 18 months or something. It was a crazy schedule, but I had a blast doing it.

Yeah. And that kind of opened this door to me for me where VH1, I guess those networks were looking for alternative programming pretty hard at that time because they were phasing out music videos. Right. Okay. So they were just looking for shows. And reality programming was just starting to happen. And they had all those, I love the shows, if you remember those.

love the 70s, I love the 80s, I love the 90s. And I remember saying to my producer friend, you know, there was the bubble. Yeah, you know, you're going to run out of these things at some point. And he's like, yeah, we know. But I started getting the call to be one of those talking heads, I guess because I had had the show, they knew I had a point of view. They knew I knew how to be on camera. And I could give a really good 20 second sound bite about something.

So I would get the call constantly. I didn't have to fly to New York for that. that was just like at a studio in North Hollywood. Yeah. It was a really easy gig, and I would have, they would send me a list. Do you have anything to say about, and there'd be like 40 things on a list? And I would just give check marks. That's my memory.

It's just you were on TV a lot. Yeah. And I was always curious how that kind of happened, because, you know, you're not a fame whore. No. You're not a big, like, I got to be on the red carpet guy. No. I don't go to the Grammys. Yeah, but I'm saying it's, it's, it's, but I'm saying you're, you're, you're sort of an

unlikely personality and that you kind of came out of this world. Again, this is an obscure world where we start the journey with like you're at the burned out practice facility, you know, with guys in sleeping bags to go on to make this seminal thrash metal album that changes their lives in the world. I mean, you're you're literally at the ground zero of this. Well, I know from me where it came from. I was a big, big, big fan, I am a big big big fan of Henry Rollins. and I was a huge fan of his talking shows when at some point he decided, I'm going to go out and just get on stage

and talk for two and a half hours. I used to go see them. Tell stories. And I love that so much. And it just clicked with me like, you know, I feel like I can do that someday. I've got so many stories to tell and I think I know how to do that just inherently.

Are you still doing this? Yeah, I still. I haven't done a run in about three years because I'm really not looking for, reasons to leave home. But I will definitely do more. Yeah. I love doing it. But that was kind of the beginning that opened the door for me to do that. Okay. When I took that job hosting that show on VH1, and I knew, well, like, it's just going to be me talking to a camera and people are going to be at home listening to me and I need to be interesting. And I feel like I know how to do this already.

Yeah. And I would never use, I hate it. I was like, no teleprompter, no nothing. I just, just let me be me, let me do my thing, and it worked. Wow. And then getting to do all that talking head stuff on VH1 and MTV in the early 2000s helped me be able to build a patter and a way to talk about things and keep things tight. When you decide you want to do, allah, Henry Rowlands, that you want to do this kind of talking talk to her? Yeah.

Like, do you call it? I call it speaking words. Okay, but I'm saying who do you call? Like, you call an agent or a manager? I had, I had thought about it for so long, and I had talked at the time, the guy who was managing us, this was back in like 2012, I think,

anthrax was about to go over to Europe to open for Motorhead on a tour. And we were starting, we were going to be in London rehearsing, and our agent called and said, I've got this, I just got a call this opportunity, for you to do, like they want you to come do a spoken word show the night before the

motorhead starts. It's this event rock stars say the dumbest things or something. And it was going to be three nights at this venue in London. And I think Duff McCaghan was doing one of them, if I remember correctly. And I can't remember who was doing the other one. And they said they would really love you to come do it. And I was excited, but at the same time terrified. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Let me. and then I talked about it with my wife and she's like, you've been wanting to do this for like years already.

And you didn't even have to like make it happen. It's just been put in your lap. Like it's meant to be, here's your chance. And I had some time. I had a couple of months to like get ready for it. They were like, they knew you were going to be in London because the motorhead tours starting in the UK, blah, blah, blah. So I said yes and figuring I'm going to put a show together.

Sounds terrifying. I'm going to put this show. together. I'm going to be great. I'm going to write my show. I have a lot of stand-up comedian friends. I know how they work. I know how they put their sets together. I'm going to do it just like they do it, but it's going to be more story-based. And I did nothing for months. And it's the night before that show, and I'm in a hotel room with my wife in London. And I'm about to call my manager and say, tell them I've got a fever and I'm not doing the show tomorrow because I can't be sick for the anthrax shows. And I was going to cancel it. And then she talked me out of it. She's like,

Don't cancel it. Just go do it. Go do it. You know what you're doing. You've got your show. You know what you're doing. And I have never been so scared in my life. I've only had stage fright really twice.

Once was when we did the big four at Yankee Stadium and having to walk out on that stage because I'm a lifelong Yankee fan. And walking on stage in my first talking show, what I was frozen. I was literally physically, physically. petrified like this standing there and I know and the intro music is playing and I got to walk out with a microphone and no band and no guitar no guitar and I'm like what the fuck you should have let me cancel like and I was so my heart was pounding and there's like 400 people in this room sitting there waiting for me to put on a show I'm like I don't know what the I'm doing and I walk out and I created an opening for my show.

I said, I need a hook. I need an opening to grab them and then never let go. So I did this thing where I, what rock star guy, what guy in a band would have written the book that would be the most opposite of my life? And I happen to have been in a Barnes & Noble months earlier or whatever. And I saw Anthony Kedis's book on the thing.

And I'm like, he definitely has a story that's so different than mine. Right? And I pick up the book and I start reading. And there's the source. whole beginning chapter about him in his house and a woman is coming over to inject him. A nurse is coming and it turns out he's getting like oxygen or he was getting like these injections into his blood and I'm like this couldn't be more the opposite of my life experience. So I decided I'm going to

and I'm thinking my crowd probably hasn't read read his book. So no one's going to immediately know. That's a good assumption. Right. So I had a. it set up there was a stool one pin spot and i just walk out super quiet of course i was shake i've seen video i'm shaking holding the book right and you could see me shaking and uh and i sit down no hello no nothing it's dark dead quiet and i just start reading this chapter from his book about a nurse coming over and being injected and you don't find out kind of towards the end of the story that it's not heroin you know people assume that i hear people whispering and a lot of people I know in the audience and and uh but I could tell they're hanging on

my every word here and I get to the end of the chapter and people I could also tell people are like what the I paid 20 pounds to come see this bullshit like and uh I close the book and I'm just quiet and I look at the crowd and I go oh did you think I was talking about myself this is Anthony Echinis' book. I just figured I would read something from, and the laugh I got, it broke the, broke the ice, and I got this huge laugh. And then I owned it for three hours. I was up there. Three hours. Three hours telling stories. And I came off stage and I looked at Pearl. I said, I can't wait to do that again. I was high from it. And as a guy that doesn't do drugs or anything, that was a drug to me. My feet were this high off the ground afterwards. What do you, I mean, this is the

stupidest question in the world, but what do you talk about for three hours? I mean, maybe ask a better version of that. What, how do you, how do you, how did you craft the narrative through the three hours, maybe? I picked out an hour of it was Q&A. Okay. So two hours. And of course, then once people started asking questions that sends me off on, you know, but I'm saying when you're just talking, I had two hours of, I had two hours of what I thought were my greatest stories in my history of being in a band. Can you share, can you share one of your great stories? I mean, they're too long to tell, but because we can do Clif. But, but like, and they're out there.

I mean, I have the story of the first time I met Lemmy when Joey and I were flown over to England to do promo for our second album for spreading. And we're, you know, you're sitting in the label office all day doing interviews. And I think the last one we did was with the guys from Kerrang. And these guys were all like heroes of mine. The writers of Kerrang were like heroes of mine because I go back to, you've seen their name. Yeah, and writing articles.

about all my favorite bands. And so they're like, hey, we're all going out to a pub. Would you guys like to join us? Let's go have a beer. Like, sure, that would be great. And we go to this place called the St. Moritz, which was this like kind of dank bar down some stairs. And we walk in and Lemmy's at the bar playing the slot machine.

And I couldn't believe it. You know, this is 1985. I've like never met anybody. And they're like, is this how London is? Like, if we go to another pub, Steve Harris is going to be there. and we're going to meet Rob Halford. Like, literally at that point in time, like the guy that I thought was the coolest person on the planet

is standing in the bar. And of course, I'm not going up to him. I couldn't, no way. But after three beers, I think it might have been Xavier Russell from Kerrang kind of gave me the, come on, come on, go ahead, go say hi. And I think he's set me up because Lemmy's just going to destroy me. But I finally got up the nerve to walk over. And I just kind of stood next to him and he's playing the thing and he sees me and he gives me a head nod.

And I'm like, oh, hey, let me, you know, how's it going, man? My name's Scott. I'm over here with my band, Anthrax, and we're doing promo for a record. He's like, okay, you know, and he doesn't paying zero attention to me. And so I'm already like, I'm out of here. And then I'm like, and I said, can I buy you a drink? and then he looks at me and he goes, you're in my town,

I'll buy you a drink, what do you have in? I didn't drink. I didn't drink back then. Like I could nurse a beer, you know? Like, and that's what I was doing with the Keran guys.

Like, just, I can nurse a beer, I'm okay. I had never drank since my 16th or 17th birthday, I had alcohol poisoning from cheap vodka, and I never drank again.

And now it's like, I'm 22, and I'm standing there with my hero, and he asked me, what am I having? And I don't know how to answer the question. So I said, whatever you're having. Uh-oh.

And then, of course, two Jack and Cokes arrive, and now I need to have this with him and not like puke on his white boots and get, like, fired by the mare of heavy metal. And so anyway, we drink the Jack and Coke, and I kind of, you know, get it in. He's not paying attention to me anyway. But then that kind of opens the door,

and he says to me, what are you here again? What are you doing? And we start talking, and the drink, keep coming because he's lemmy and the bartender knows him and whenever his drink is empty there's just another drink so like the whole story goes on for i'm not shitting you another 40 minutes and then not nazi doctor in munich like there's because what happened was i am now feeling really good in this moment after about six or seven jack and coke's but there's there is that little voice in there that's going you're in big trouble dude you are in big trouble with you're

You were really drunk. And the last thing I remember from that night was running out the door of this bar, right? That was the last, that's the last thing I remember. That doesn't sound good. I wake up in the morning with Johnny Zazula, our manager. I'm in the bed and he's shaking me. Get up, get up, get up. We're late because we were like flying to Munich the next morning for the next stop on the promo

motor and and I can't move and every inch of my body is in pain which I found out was because I was able to say to Johnny like what happened and and and I'm I'm covered in puke there's puke everywhere is puk in my pillow like he said I had to turn you over three times last night you were throwing up in your sleep like he goes get like all this get take a shower get dress we got to get to the airport and he's explaining to me he goes I saw you when you ran out of the bar. He goes, so I figured maybe you were in trouble because I know you don't drink. And I followed you out and you were running up and down the street.

And this is late. There's nobody on the street. It's late at night. And you were diving into piles of garbage on the concrete, just screaming at the top of your lungs. He goes, and eventually after about the fourth or fifth garbage pile, you didn't come out of the pile of garbage. So I went out of the over there and I fished you out. and I put you over my back and we got a taxi. And here we are now let's go.

We got to get to Munich. And there's a whole, the, I had alcohol poisoning for days in this. Anyway, there's a whole other, I had my pants on the way to the Munich Hotel. I couldn't control it. And it's this doctor that came, who literally was Lawrence Olivier from the fucking Dustin Hoffman movie. What was that? Marathon man. Marathon man.

Anyway, the end of the story. is it's now like six months later and anthrax is in London playing our first ever headline show in London at the Hammersmith Palais and Lemmy walks in our dressing room. And I haven't seen him since that night. And he's saying hi to everyone and everyone's super excited that Lemmy's come to see Anthrax apparently. And he looks at me and he looks, how are you feeling? And I say, well, you remember? And he's like, yeah, that's why I'm here. You told me about your band and I knew some people coming tonight.

So I figured I drop in and say hi and see it. And I said, look, I was not much of a drinker. He's like, yeah, I could tell. And I said, I hope I didn't do anything stupid or say anything stupid to you. I apologize if I did. He goes, no, no, no, you were just fine until you stopped speaking English. And he said and he goes, and I kind of just went with him for a while. while because it was quite funny actually you were saying things to me and i don't even know what words

were coming out of your mouth he goes and then at one point you just turned around and ran as fast as you could out of the bar and here we are and uh i have i had an amazing dime bag darrell story i've i've got an amazing jorgensen story i've got you know an amazing scott story and i would i i wrote these things out like i wrote them out all the beats and where i'm going to get my biggest laughs and physically how to perform these stories, because it's not just standing there talking and telling a story. And I'm very physical.

I know how to use my voice. And yeah, that's what I talk about. I'm impressed because that sounds like a, that's a big one. I don't think I could do that. It's a lot of fun. That's, I need that crutch called a guitar. You'd be surprised you'd do this.

You could easily do a talking show. I did something where I did a thing where I, similar. kind of wrote out the beats, I would tell like kind of a five-minute story and then I would play a song. Right. It was kind of my early years, early days of the band and I, I recorded. I haven't listened to it yet, but people who didn't enjoy it, but it wasn't meant to be humorous or entertaining. It was meant to sort of be almost like a talking documentary. Yeah. I'm curious, like we said, Metallica, arguably the biggest band in the world. Slayer, thankfully, reforming.

looking back at this incredible body of work and again, the ups and downs, but it's now it's up again in a way that I feel like it'll never go back down. I mean, maybe the business will go down, but I guess the vibe won't. Right. That makes any sense.

It's like once you're an OG or an OG. Like when we talk about public enemy, for example, there's always a sort of a shine on the name because you're like, there's only one of those. Of course. So you guys made that cut, which is pretty amazing. Yeah, the logo. I remember someone saying to me in the business at one point,

your logo is everything. Like just the visual of that word. And he goes, think of any band you love. And then think about how excited you are when you see the logo. Just the logo is exciting enough to get you to buy something. So if you could just reflect on the sense that not only you guys, but friends, people you came up with,

that you've all achieved this kind of legendary status doesn't really quite get what I'm after. It's a sort of a, it's a form of victory because again, you know what this music came from and who was there in the beginning and actually sort of champion like you're talking about the guy from Megaforce.

It took somebody to be like, I'm going to champion this when nobody gave a shit. Yeah, you know. It's, for me, it's about being able to call our own shots. To have that power as a band, because I've seen a thousand bands come and go.

I've been a part of other bands and side projects and been through great experiences and nightmares. I've, you know, with anthrax, we created an environment where we are able to do what we love and do what we want to do and have fun doing still after all this day. And do it our way. Just 100% call our own shots against all the nightmares of the music business that,

But lucky for us not as bad as certainly other bands that I know of have faced. But since we signed our deal, our first deal with Johnny in 83 and then with Island Records in 85 and then with Elektra in 92. And then back on Megaforce, you know, because Missy, who used to work at Megaforce, bought the label years ago. And it's turned that into, it's not a metal label only anymore. Like she's got the Black Crows and she's got all these other types of bands. and turned it into something really powerful and great and being back on Megaforce now for like the last 16 years or something.

It's, you know, to be able to say no, the power of no is, I think, the best power to be able to wield and have if you're in a band. Because it always seems to work in your favor, I feel like when you say no to something. feel that when you say it. And then when the same people come back, whether it's record label people or promoters or whoever, it seems like they come back a couple of weeks later and usually will do what you asked to do in the first place.

Yeah. The hardest part about saying no is you're going to find out whether or not you're valuable to somebody. Exactly. There is that fear sometimes that you may lose something. Well, you're going to find out that maybe you're not as valuable as you think you are. Exactly. And that's happened to us And we still

We still lose like Yeah We don't care Last time I saw you guys play live I was on the side watching you I saw you at the Sabbath thing But I saw you at a gig Somewhere recently

Last few years And I thought it was so cool Because it was like It only happens with certain bands Where all the ups and downs And the people coming and going And you know The doubt

It all kind of comes And it's And it ends up being almost like a celebration and watching you guys play and was like, wow, this is cool. It's like they've won. Whatever they were after, they won. And it's in the, for lack of a better way to put it,

it's in the body language. There's no insecurity, there's no fear. There's no even defiance. It's like, this is who we are. We're here and be with us. I think that's the thing that attracts both of us in our own way to music so deeply. that is the power.

Yes. All the other thing is kind of a game. Media, record labels in their own way, it's all kind of a weird game. Right. But the power when you can be yourself and somebody out there goes, you know what, which you represent to me on a musical, social, whatever level, I feel that. Yeah, that connection. That's kind of what I wanted to start with you being in the crowd because I think,

I'm not trying to assert myself in your story, but I think we have very similar things where we loved a lot of music and a lot of different directions. and somehow we were able to put that love into our band and share that in a different way and then be influential in our own way because we were able to take our love of all this disparate music. Because like I said, and that's why I mean it's a compliment. When I first met you, it was like, wow, this guy actually gives a shit about something else other than his lane. Right. Because I would meet metal guys that I really looked up to and respected.

And it was like talking to a fly because they just, as far as they were concerned, if you didn't live on planet metal, you didn't. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that connection, being on stage to me, I've always looked at it as it's a privilege. It's a privilege for me to be there. And when you said it's like you felt like it's almost like you've, like they've won. And that's, that really is how I feel walking on stage because that 90 minutes, if we're two hours, whatever it may be, if we're headlining, or if it's 50 minutes opening for Iron Maiden, whatever it is. that window of time for me, it's so special and it does feel like we've won. Now I get to go do this. And that connection with the audience and knowing that that downpick I just did made all of those people feel like that.

And when Joey just yelled that to the crowd and when Frankie just ran across the stage like a lunatic and when, you know, Charlie just crushed that breakdown. And when John just tore that, you know, solo, that connection we're making and how we're making each other feel. Yeah. Because we so feed off our audience, too, and that energy, every band does. And that connection is the greatest thing. I have one. I get to experience that every show.

And where else can you experience that feeling of a live audience? I mean, live theater, sure, but live theater doesn't have moss pits and walls of death. And usually the performers aren't singing their own songs that they wrote in some burned-out rehearsals hall. Yeah. We get to look out at a see of people who all they want to do in this time they have, you know, this, their night out or it's their day out at a festival or whatever it is. And we've got this time together. And they just want to have the best time they possibly can. And they get to do it with us.

Like, it's like, that's a privilege. Last couple of things. I didn't know you that you were married to Meat Loeb's daughter, your wife, Pearl, and I know you guys play music together. So I was just curious, what's it like to not be in a band, but to play music with your partner. It's the best. It's the best.

Like, she's recording a record right now. Yeah, I saw that. And I didn't, I wasn't going to ask to play on it because she's working with this producer, Paul Stacey, and it's all. of this is kind of above my pay grade as a guitar player, like the type of guitar playing on this record. And it's very much a hard rock record. Yeah. But it's, it's more. And she can really sing rock. Your wife. She crushes. And, you know, we're talking like it's Michael Schenker keeps coming up. There's a lot of shanker melodic. Oh, I see. Melodic schenker lead styles, but then also

all the rhythm, guitar playing stuff that's like more in the thin. Lizzie Vane. Okay. Like adult chords that I can learn, but I don't know them off the top of my head sometimes. And I didn't know I was going to be asked to play on the record. And Pearl played a show here in L.A. a couple of months ago because Paul, the producer was coming in from London to see it. And he was basically just kind of like, do you mind if we look, you know, different places

for some of the different musicians? But I really need Scott to play on the record. because his rhythm playing was so intense on your songs. It really kind of held the whole thing together musically. And I was like, wow, I can't believe you said that because I feel like such a caveman in the mix with all these better musicians. So I got to, like, Jason Faulkner's playing on the record.

And I sit in a room with a guy like him, you know, and he's just such an amazing musician. It just kind of blows my mind. And it's, you know, it's not a job. jealousy thing or anything like that. But sometimes I just think when you're next to somebody and you're watching them play and it's just like, well, how'd they ever get to a place? I know, practice, but how'd they ever get to a place where that just comes so easy and so natural and all that? And it's like, how is he a guitar player and how am I? Like, how does that work? Well, I, um, you know, I'm, I, I'm,

I'm, I'm friendly with Uli John Roth. And, uh, yeah, O'I, uh, you know, we, Uli would, we'd just have Uli show up and play with us on stage. And, you know, Uli just walks out and just starts playing. People are like, and if you know who he is, you're like, oh, my God. And if you don't know who is he's, he's like, who's the space wizard? Yeah, exactly. But when you sit like this far as far as we are and you watch somebody like Uli play, or like the time I went and interviewed Eddie Van Halen at his house and you watch him play from this far away,

you're like, oh my God. Yeah. How do you do that? And, of course, they don't know because they just can just do it. We were once really quick. Pearl was rehearsing at Mates on Cleon, and we were in the room and we would finish a song, and there would be someone was in the next room playing Van Halen,

and we just figured, oh, some guys practicing for his cover band. And then at one point, it's like, man, whoever that is, they're really good. And then another 20 minutes later, we decided to take five and the door of the room is open, and Ed walks by, like, it's him. We've been sitting here listening for like an hour and it's him. And then so I went and I peaked in the room because I, you know, knew him-ish enough to say hello. And yeah, I was like, hey, Ed.

And he's like, hey, Scott, come in, check out the new pedal board. You know, Friedman just tweaked for me. And I'm figuring out how all the pedals work. This was like leading up to the, when they did the reunion with Roth. Yeah. He was like getting all his together, his gear together for the tour. And he's, then I spent. 40 minutes with him and he went through his whole new pedal board with me and all the sounds and the

tones and I'm just like yeah like oh my god unfair um one last thing is did I see that your your son is playing drums my son my son has a band called Xcom which uh it's a hardcore band yes he's the drummer in the band started the band he's 13 14 15 yeah they're blowing up it's like really oh yeah Oh, they just did warp tour. Oh, my God, that's so cool. They're going out and doing a bunch of shows with Dillinger. Are you the super proud dad? Super proud dad.

Dad, I have nothing to do with it. This is all these dudes have worked their eyes off for the last two, three years to get where they are. Ross Robinson saw them at a club in L.A. And with having nothing to do with me, I didn't know Ross was coming that night and was so blown away by it live. He was like, what are you doing? We need to make a record. I want to sign you to my label. Like they made this incredible record called Time to Burn.

And yeah, they're out, they're going out on tour. They're opening for Guns and Roses in Atlanta next month. And then next year they're going to be out on tour, like doing the thing, doing the work. It's happening. It's like really happening. So you're in the dad spot. What's the dad advice on that? I really stay out of it.

Like I asked Revel the other week if he ever, if, It was like if you had the opportunity to come out and open anthrax shows on a tour, I couldn't even finish the question. He said, no, no, no. Just, and I understand. I totally, I get it. Explain it to me, so I understand.

Because they want to do it. They want to earn it. They don't want to be. He even said, like even now, like I'm talking about this. And like, we try and keep, of course, anytime anyone writes about them or does anything. Sometimes it's, less than it is more, but they just want to keep that. The Scotian son has a band thing.

Yeah. Because if you hear them, if you listen to them, it has nothing to do with me. It has not, other than the fact that maybe he's got some of my jeans as a musician. Yeah, I had Slash's kid, um, spanned. London, return to dust. Yeah. Great. And, you know, I guess what I'm saying is I hate when people throw on the Nepo baby stuff. Yeah, exactly. Because if anybody knows anything about the music business, we do, that's not going to get you very far. No. You got to earn it.

You got to earn it. And you know with fans, you got to earn it, earn it. They're not going to hand it to you just because you got a face or a name. So anyway, they're doing, I'll tell you after. No, no, tell me no. Pearl and I went to the brood the other day, to the museum and walking in and the guy that looks at your little QR code to get in, I was wearing this hat. And he goes, oh, man, great hat.

Like so, and he doesn't know I'm the dude from Anthro. So I love the fact that it's out there enough where, like, people are knowing the band that has nothing, nothing to do with me. And it's thrash? Hardcore. They're a hardcore band. Okay, cool. I'll check them out. It's killer.

Thank you, Scott. Yeah, thank you.