The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Sharon Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with the iconic Sharon Osbourne—manager extraordinaire, TV personality, and the formidable force behind Ozzy Osbourne’s enduring career. Sharon opens up about her incredible life in show business, starting with childhood memories of her father, notorious music impresario Don Arden, and all the mischief and magic that came with growing up around rock legends like Gene Vincent, Little Richard, and the Small Faces. Billy and Sharon also dive deep into the early days of Black Sabbath: from Ozzy’s first London gigs and sweaty club shows to the challenges and triumphs that reshaped heavy metal forever. From the business battles that tested Sharon’s mettle, to the behind-the-scenes stories of how she helped Ozzy break away from an impossible contract to forge one of the most successful solo careers in rock, they cover near-disasters and triumphant comebacks, all fueled by Sharon’s fearless determination and her unwavering belief in the power of music.Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm not happy at the way the industry's run. Okay. I love this part. Never said this to anyone. He got offered to go and read for... And you said no. I said no. What's your sort of first impression?

Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just put me in the room a little bit. Well, it was packed. It was sweaty. When it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? I can remember my best friend who is an agent said to me, you can't let this go out. This is disgraceful.

You can't. You've got to stop it. And I'm like, oops, too late. Too late. So I've read a lot of biographies about musicians that were born in a post-war Britain, this kind of, you know, there were still bomb sites and kids playing and homes that had been, you know, ripped out of the ground and stuff like that. Do you have memories like that?

I guess I'm asking it as for your question about what you remember about post-war Britain. Yeah. In fact, the house where I grew up, we moved from there. So from one to 12, I lived in a house that right behind was still bomb sites. Even when I left at 12, there was still bombsites. And what did people tell you? Like, here in America, it was always the Great Depression. That's what you always heard about. You heard about World War II. But World War II didn't happen here. Right. It was about Grandpa went overseas and then didn't want to talk about what he saw, that type of stuff.

But of course, Europe lived in the site of the war. So what did that feel like and what did people tell you about the war? Everything was related to the war. There were even, I can remember as a child, there were gas masks hanging as you came into our house where you'd hang your coat. There were gas masks hanging. Still? Yeah. And there were air raid shelters at the bottom of our garden.

Wow. Yeah. Did that leave an impression on you in any way? I'm just curious. Yeah, because we all, I mean, we all played on the bomb sites. It was right at the back of our house. There was a whole street that had gone. Yeah.

And all the kids in the area, you know, it was the time where you did play in the streets. Yeah. And we would always be there. too, with my husband, he, he too played on bombsides. Yeah. And it was just very much a part of our lives. It was, it was, oh, you killed Jesus. You started World War II.

Yeah. Because being a Jew, it was like, you very much got. Ah, I never thought about it that way. When I was a kid, I heard the, you know, if you, we didn't have as many Jewish classmates where I grew up, But, you know, the one kid that was that said, you killed Jesus. Right. We don't even knew what it meant.

No, but you used to see it. And I used to hear it and go, this guy, Jesus. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, because I was thinking about it in knowing I was going to talk to you. Because obviously with Sabbath and Ozzy's music, you do feel that growing up in the horror of war. I mean, War Pigs is one of the great anti-Pigs.

war songs of all time. You know, it's in the lyric. And even, you know, the American and UK fascination with comic books and this idea of self-empowerment, superheroes, and fighting the Nazis and all this type of stuff, Captain America. But I thought, you know, it didn't strike me that it was part of your story that I know about, but I thought it must have affected you. And it certainly affected your family. Very much. And there was this guy called Moses. and he was a Sir and he was a Nazi and after the war he was still hanging around in England. Oh, wow. Was he a British subject?

British, yeah, very, very well-spoken, used to hang out with the Royal Family. He's one of his bestest friends in the world was the king that abdicated. Right. And they ended up living near each other in France. So they were always buddy buddies, and he was a huge Nazi and used to give rallies everywhere in England. And my dad used to go and there would be fights all the time because the Jewish people would go. This is pre-war? After.

After, too. After, yeah. I don't know how anybody could defend that after, but. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. This always reminds me that famous Monty Python. skit where Hitler is Hilter. It's John Cleese and he's like he's running for

local council. You know, there's that's funny. Anyway, sorry. They're the best. I mean, the funniest. I want to talk about your dad, but there's not a ton of information about your mother. And, you know, again, we're in this world of information. There's so much information readily, readily available. But if you want to dig deeper, it just goes into nothing. Yeah, yeah. And so I found some pictures of your mother in sort of ballerina costumes and her being a ballerina and even some insinuation that you too wanted to be a ballerina. I did, yeah. But tell me, like, was your mother like a vaudevillian as what we would say here? Absolutely.

And her mother was a choreographer. Okay. And my mom was a dancer. So she would be in my grandmothers would get troops of girls and put them out on different circuits. Circuits. Ah, yeah. And so my mom was a dancer. Her mother was a choreographer, dancer.

And my mom married a musical conductor. Okay. And he was very well known, apparently. And the marriage didn't last. She had a son and a daughter with her first husband, divorced. And in those times, nobody would get divorced. You were like, oh. Yeah.

You know, she must be a bad woman. And she met my father, who at this time was a singer. Right. I have heard recordings of your father. I went out of my way. I never knew he sang. I mean, I certainly know his legacy and music, but not a bad voice. Yeah, he had a good voice.

And he, what did you hear, sunrise, sunset? I heard that. I tried to find him. There was some insinuation that he kind of did like an Elvis imitation record, but I couldn't find that. No. No. Okay.

No. very much like a crooner yeah right yeah and so they married after six weeks they got married right so it was kind of a love at first sight type of thing so

I'd rather ask you than sort of poke around with what I read but tell me about your father's pre-war life because there's some sense that he too was a bit of a vaudevillian comic acting can you illustrate that a little bit okay before he wanted to be a can't

and he was brought up very religious, very religious Jew. And he trained, did all the training, and then just decided, no, I want to be an entertainer. Wow. And so he used to do impressions and sing. Right. The things I saw is that he did impressions of like Al Jolson. Yes, he did. Yeah.

He did, yeah. Did you think it's hard because obviously his legacy and music as a manager is what people talk about. But did you think he had talent himself as a performer? Yeah, he did. And I can remember, like, as a baby, baby after the war, my father would put packages together and he would go and entertain the troops, the American troops all over the world. and so my brother and I would go and we'd watch him. I mean, we were always together traveling.

And, yeah, I grew up in a lot of American bases all over Europe. I didn't know that about you. Yeah. So I don't want to make assumptions, but he changed his name. Harry. He was Herschel Levy, Harry Levy. Yeah. And he couldn't get any work.

And so he changed it to Arden. Yeah. That's such a painful thing, you know, when I think back. Yeah. That people had to change your name. You have to deny what you are. Yeah. So you're born basically into show business.

Did you feel that? Does that? Because I, you know, I think, you know, my father was a musician. I just remember being a kid, like, there are always people around. You know, people in the house, people in the basement getting stoned. it was just part of my life. It was normal to me, but looking back, I realized why to other kids in the neighborhood, it was very exotic. Did you feel that way, too?

The same thing, Billy. It was like, we didn't have birthday parties for us and things like that in the house, because it was a house where work was going on all the time. So it was an intrusion. And we fitted in and we knew how to behave, but there weren't kids coming in and out of our house. And the same thing, musicians coming in and out and other agents and this and that, you know. So what was your sense of it then? And I guess what I'm saying is like what was your sense of the music business then?

Because if you had gone on to be, say, an actor, it would be relevant in a way, but you end up becoming into that same world. Yeah. It was, we didn't mix with anybody unless they were in the industry. Wow. That's the way it was. Was it because it was the people you choose to associate with or there was, and I know back, and I was talking about the 70s, people treated anybody in the music business as less than.

There was a feeling that, you know, my father was doing something untoward by being a musician. Yeah, get a proper job. Yeah, that was always, my father complained his whole life that my step-grandmother had once told him, when are you going to get a real job? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And other people, yes, would think, oh, they're odd, you know, a bit extreme. I want to mix with them.

But we always kept within what my mother and father were doing. Where do you think your father's love of the business came from? He loved music. He just loved music. And that was his whole life. And he could read and write music. Okay. And it's very rare for when he did become a manager, for the manager to read and write music.

And the musicians that were coming up then, not many of them could. Yeah. And my father could talk in technical terms to other musicians. Yeah, because the stories are legion about your father's kind of way of doing business. But then in the same breath, there was like Kenny Jones or something talking about, he was so charismatic. Very charismatic. Because being an entertainer, he carried that with him at the time. And he was very dramatic.

And when he would walk in a room, you'd notice this because of the presence that he exuded. And he was very, very charismatic. Was Jean Vincent like his first kind of really big act that he managed? Would you point to somebody before that? No, it was Gene. It was Jean. Yeah. Because I remember seeing David Bowie perform.

on his last tour. I think David knew then he was sick and did this kind of last tour, but he didn't tell anybody until later. But I remember he, and he was very chatty in a way that he usually wasn't on a stage. And he told a story very deliberately about how seeing Gene Vincent perform around the time your father would have been managing him, basically in his mind, created the Ziggy Stardust character. And that the way Ziggy stood on stage was a complete emulation. Because Gene Vincent had this weird motorcycle accident.

He tells this whole story on stage. I never have heard that story. Isn't that cool? Because that goes right back to your father's. He had a bolt between the knee, either side of his leg, and it went under his... Like a booted brace or something. Yeah. Two metal rods.

I mean, it was really bad. And he was really the first rock star that he was. came up. He was, he was unbelievable. Yeah. So the first guy I ever saw were black leather. Shades of things to come, right? So you're, I think, 8, 10 around this time. So what's your impression of that world at this point? I mean, you're old enough to know, okay, this is dad's business. These are people. Like, what's your impression? Because I always like to ask people, like, how they felt in the time. Because obviously we know Gene Vincent is a legend.

Rock and roll has a lot of debt to Gene Vincent and Elvis and these great pioneers. But at the time, you're just a little girl, and there's Gene Vincent, like, at the office. Yeah. You know, what was your thought about somebody like that? Did you see him as having a different type of charisma? Or did it strike you, I guess, is what I'm trying to say? Yeah, because he had a very strong accent. He had a very strong American accent.

Was it like Brooklyn or I don't know his... No. It was like he He would like slide his words And with the booze too He had a very slurry accent He would speak very slowly So in growing up in this musical family

Who were some of the musicians or artists that you liked Even if they weren't managed by your father? Oh it was all the people that my dad I mean I got to see amazing, incredible artists as a child. And knowing they were special, but then as time gone by, how special. I mean, real...

Can you name some names? I'm just curious. Jerry Lee Lewis. James Brown in the early days. Chuck Berry, little Richard, who was... I always kept in touch with him. Really? Always kept in. You always know that you guys knew.

other all those years. Yeah, and then Ozzy and the whole thing. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. The Everly brothers adored them.

Brenda Lee, my dad managed Brenda Lee for a while. Stay in touch with her. Yeah, I just read Graham Nash's book and he talked about standing on the stairs

outside of some English hotel where he got to meet the Everly brothers and how that changed the course of his life. Just for them to listen to him and give him that two minutes of like, you know,

it's such an interesting thing because it's sorry for it. No, no, no, I want, I'm here to hear from you, not from me. Sam Cook. He was the one that stood out for me. I adored watching him perform. So was your dad promoting and managing? Yes.

Okay, so that makes sense. So that's why you're seeing these great artists that are coming up. He would put these packages together and they were just, I look now at some of the old programs that I have and I'm like, oh my God, all these artists. See, Daddy really had a sense of like he felt what was going on and he saw it. Did he like rock and roll?

Loved it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Because not a lot of guys who grew up liking what he liked in that generation, made that transition. Frank Sinatra famously was criticizing the Beatles. Yeah, exactly. He embraced it.

I came very late to approach. appreciate how good the small faces were. Did you, did you? I went to school with Stevie Marriott. Because I want to ask you about Steve. So, so, but I mean, at the time, did you, I know they were sort of a, in a way, like a teen sensation, but they had musical credibility. They did. And my big harp, and I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it now, I think they might be one of the most influential bands ever. But somehow in America, because when they caught on, it was kind of later, 30 days in the whole, like gritty or rock. But when you go back

listen to the whole thing, especially with Steve and small faces. And you realize, like, how many people ripped him off, including Led Zeppelin and it's unbelievable. His voice is incredible, just incredible. I was sent to a stage school. And so the school... Like a performing arts type of thing? Yes.

So you learned all the performing arts and, of course... Is this you trying to be a dancer at this point? Anything. Because it was like my father said, unless you can entertain, you'll never earn a living. So Stevie was at the school. And he was in a production of Oliver in London. Right. And he played the artful Dodger.

Yeah, right. And, I mean, that voice of him was just incredible. And he was tiny, tiny little. He's tinery than you, right? And he was like real Bowsey Bowse I would argue with anyone

Yeah Yeah See I think it's interesting because like I said Now we can sit here and talk And we can say this person's a legend And this person's in the Rock and Roll of Fame But at the time the business was A fraction of the size it is now

It was still a business It was still the music business Instead of the music industry Ah, I see. That's an interesting point. So I saw something and before I say it, I know that Brian Epstein did it, but there's some thing about your dad chart fixing and there's some controversy about him with small faces and chart fixing. Yeah, and pay for play on the radio. Yeah. But they would go in the store and buy like a bunch of singles to try to get up in the charts. Yeah. We would all go out on a Saturday and, you know, pocket full of cash and go to every record shop and buy it. Yeah, but that was kind of standard procedure back. Yeah, sure. When the small faces kind of started to take off,

did that sort of change your father's fortune and that other artists wanted to work with him? The, we... Sorry, were they the first kind of young contemporary band that he had association with her? Yes, yeah. That were English too. Yeah.

And, but we were always had money or completely broke. So it was Burma Bostia. That's the way it was. So I was always used to adapting. You just adapt, you know, oh, we've got no phone in the house because it's been cut off. We didn't pay the bill.

No lights. We didn't pay the bill. Or water. Just okay. Yeah. I saw a story, I think it was in Peter Frampton's book where he was talking about he had the band The Herd.

Yes. And I think your father had managed him. I don't remember the exact story, but something along the lines of like somebody came up and was asking Peter about working with your father. And Peter said something and kind about your father. And a few days later, a couple guys showed up. Peter stepped outside of club and said, we're going to talk to Don. Like you get in the car, took him with the car, he walks in and there's your dad behind the desk and says, take my name out of your mouth. I'm not trying to say it some sort of sign of his character. It's more of like, I know

that that business back then was very rough and tumble. There were no laws. There were no laws. It was, you know, there were pioneers. So, lawyers, this, the other, forget it.

Right. Sign here, sign now. Yeah, or get out. There's two more waiting to come in. Yeah. Because my daddy, when he had some opportunities in Chicago with late 60s, he told me later that the reason he didn't sign because of this implication that you were signing in with the mob people. I'm not saying that's your father's experience, but there was that feeling that there were other forces at play and you had to be careful where you stepped. And I think at least it's important pointing it out. Because

like you said, now it would be about lawyers and magistrates and who says what, what the laws in California. Back then, it was mild west. Nothing. Nothing at all. And, you know, everybody knew it was quick money, very quick, like gambling. And so everybody wanted a piece. And the mob was very much involved in America. Yeah. In those days, they just were. And my dad had some connections and some with these guys called the craze that ended up in England going.

Because they had clubs and they would want stars to come. and perform in their clubs, and so my father knew them. Yeah, it's like when you see those old interviews where they're kind of, they're poking around with Frank Sinatra about whether he has any mob ties. Well, the real answer is you couldn't play a club in those days without some organized crime connection because that's how they laundered their money. And it's- And Vegas.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying is there's another side to that story. Yes, yeah. There was no way to play in that sandbox without having to rub elbows with somebody. up to something. Right. And it would get very much, you know, when artists would come,

especially to New York on the East Coast, wherever they were, they were involved. They owned the buildings, the theaters. And the guy put in the chair on the stage. And if you didn't pay something, something... Yeah, exactly. So this is my understanding of the acts

that your dad did manage, but maybe this is a wrong list. But Jerry Lee Lewis, some of the names she had, Little Richard, Jean Vincent Air Supply, The Move, Black Sabbath, ELO. Anybody else that I'm missing on that list? It's a pretty decent list of success. Yeah. So...

The Nashville teens, the animals. Oh, that's right. Yeah. I didn't know about the animals. Yeah, oh. Yeah, now there's a guy with a great voice. Well, there's the famous story of the day they recorded House of the Rising Sun. It was on like a houseboat.

They went in on this houseboat and recorded it in like a couple hours and then drove up the road to a gig. Didn't think anything of it. It's magical times in those ways. Yeah. Now we make albums forever and Pro Tools. And we need to fly here and we need this guy in to do another mix. The purity has kind of gone. Yeah. That's why I love talking you about it because you were actually there and you saw it happen. Not a lot of people really saw the way that business ran at that time. It makes, in many ways for me as a fan, it makes those times even more magical because you realize it really was trying to find lightning in a bottle. And talent really was the great delineating force.

So when you look at small faces, you know, when you listen that voice, that's not him doing 18 takes. That's him stepping up to a microphone in many ways live. Oh, yeah. Oh, we've got four hours tonight, so can we finish? Unbelievable. It gives me chills to think about because it's, if you love rock and roll, we love rock and roll. It's humbling, you know, and of course, you're, you're high. husband, one of the great singers of all time. It's like it, it was there from the beginning.

He found it or he had it. Yeah. It's not like somebody said, well, you know, Oz, can you? If you move this way and if you dress this way and if we get this choreographer in, you know, you'll be, kids will love it. It just came from within. It was for all of those artists. I always laugh because there's that, there's that concert film of Sabbath playing Paris like 1970. Yes. And Ozzy's wearing like a member's only jacket. It's so like they're playing all these doom songs, and Ozzy's in his members only jacket.

So it's two questions, but take them any way you want. It's what did you want to be or become? And did your father want you in his business? So how does that work as a teenager? Like how are you, if you're, I don't pick your age, 12 for 13, you're looking forward. I wanted to be a dancer. But I knew I didn't have the dedication that it takes to do ballet

because it's like being a gym night. It's like six hours a day type of thing, right? And I didn't have that. I wanted to have fun. Really? And you can't do that if you... So what's fun for you at age 13, 14? I went to all the gigs I could.

All the TV shows where there was music on. There was the show. in England called Top of the Pops. Sure. And so everything that was in the top 20, they would play, and certain artists would come in and perform live. So used to go to see the live Top of the Pop shows? Yeah.

And then my greatest joy was I got to host it once, and it was my greatest joy. How old were you when this happened? And I couldn't tell anybody there because they would think, Oh, I see. You know, I've been watching it since I was this big. Right. But.

How old were you when this happened? Oh, God. This happened. I must have done that in 20-01. So 23 years ago. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was thinking it was back then. No. No. Oh, I see. And I loved it. Oh. Yeah. So when's the first time you saw Ozzie in real life? I saw Ozzie at 18 and they played a club in London called the Markey. So that would have been, what, 1978? No, 76.

76, okay. No, why am I saying that? No, 7071. Oh, that early. That early. Okay, right. That's what I was trying to understand. Yeah.

And there was all the talk in the office, because I worked for my father then. I left school at 15. You could leave school at 15 in England then. What are you doing in the office at this point? I am the receptionist. I am learning the business, and I was a receptionist. How are you as a receptionist? Terrible.

Terrible, because I used to answer the phone, and I would answer the phone with different accents on, because I'd get bored, and I'd done all the accents at drama school, so I would be American, and I'd be all of this, so I just used to play. But there was all... this talk in the office that there was this band called Black Sabbath that had a stupid manager from Birmingham and their album had just come out and there was all of this talk about this album

nobody's heard music like this before and it was you know a small business so everybody was talking and they were coming to play in London at the Marquis Club and um every manager in London was there trying to steal the band. So you were at this gig where this is this kind of moment? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So what's your, I mean, obviously you had a lot of time to live with your husband since then, but like what's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just put me in the room a little bit. Well, it was packed. It was sweaty. It was small club. And it, when it started out, I'm not.

like, what the hell is this? I'd been used to American artist always. Oh, I see. Or the faces, you know, and they were like jolly and happy. I'm like, what the hell is this? What's going on? And the walls were all dripping with sweat. And, you know, I was like, what is this?

I couldn't quite make it out. Yeah. But you knew it was special, the vibe in the room. and watching everybody's face. Yeah. There are those moments in our life musically where you see or hear something and you know something's happening

but you haven't figured it out yet. So it's that odd feeling of like I'm behind something but why am I behind? Yeah. I shouldn't like this but I do but I don't. Yeah. It was very odd. And so the next day

they were due to come to see my father. So my father sent his chauffeur who was a very interesting person, and he was also his bodyguard. And he was involved with the craze. Okay. And he had a checkered past, you could say, this gentleman.

It sounds better with your English accent. So he went to their hotel, picked them up, and brought them to my father's office. the first time they'd ever been in a Rolls-Royce. And my father was, he knew how to put it on, you know, impressed. I got you. So they came to our offices, which were in Mayfair, in London. And I, they come in, they sit in reception.

And there you are. There am I. And they're all sat on the floor. And they wouldn't sit in seats. They had to sit on the floor. And I'm like, what the fuck is going on? And I'm just taking my calls, you know, trying not to have eye contact with anyone. And then I showed them into my father's office.

And then this gentleman, his name was Wilf, who was my father's bodyguard and chauffeur, was to drive them back to the station where they were going home to Birmingham. And he didn't. He took them to a pub. Okay. And one of the guys who worked. for my father. In fact, he used to be Gene Vincent's tour manager for my father when Richard Blackmore was in the backup band. The blue caps they were called. Right.

He joined the meeting. He used the tour manager for my father, but he was working every day in the office, this guy. And so he met Wilf. They sat down with someone. Sabbath, Sabbath told them they were terrified of my father. And Wilf and this guy, Patrick, said, yes, and he'll steal all your money. You don't want to go with him. He will beat you up. He'll do whatever, whatever, whatever. And they were terrified of him anyway because they'd heard stories. And that Friday, Patrick and Wilf left. And they took Black Sabbath. Well, they didn't take them because we never had them. Oh, I get you.

I get you. Yeah. So to the romantic side of the equation, you're looking at your future husband. You don't know he's your future husband. Do you have any stars in your eyes? At that point, I was honestly, I was so like, oh, God, I can't look at them. I'm like insecure. They were kind of motley back then.

Yeah, they were. And I was like, oh, I'm embarrassed to look at them. them. I was used to people coming in, smartly dressed, smelling great. Sure. Oh, yeah, of course. Very sophisticated London. Yeah. And not them. Tony Iommi, because I got to work with them once on something, he was telling me about when they would come down from Birmingham to London, they would feel like aliens. And the press would treat them poorly and they couldn't wait to go home because London to them was this alien place. Really strange for them. And when they feel.

first went to America, it was even worse. Can you imagine them in New York? They were scared to leave the hotel. Well, so, so at that point there's no like, nothing, nothing. Do you remember talking Ozzy back then? No. I'm just curious, it's the romantic side of me. It's, it's, we had nothing but Wilf and Patrick who left, who took Sabbath and of course, you know, he's, he's, he's, huge record sales, huge scores. I spoke to Patrick. I had a friendship with him. He'd worked for my dad forever.

He was always very nice to me. Not with Wilf, I didn't have a friendship. He was frightened me. But with Patrick, I did. And so I used to go to a few gigs. My dad didn't know. Okay. And then I got to meet Ozzy.

I'd take girlfriends and we'd go and see a show. when they were in London. So then you got to know them a little bit socially. Yes. So then over time, I got to know them and Tony. Okay. And then Tony would come into town into L.A. When I moved to L.A., he would call, we'd go hang, and that sort of thing. Just very, nothing special, just other warm, nice. Yeah. How are you doing? So take me a little bit through, how do they eventually end up with your dad? In early 79, Tony was in L.A. And he said, everything we thought your dad would do, they did to us.

They stole. They took everything. The guys would say, can we afford houses? Listen to this. They did, they would do a, you know, a three-month tour of America. They would get 1,000 pounds in a check each for the tour. Yeah. But they would think that was a huge amount of money. They were happy with it. Yeah.

And then they'd say, do you think we have enough to ever buy a house? And Patrick would say, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go buy a house. We'll take care of everything for you. And they would buy houses. They weren't big estates. They were houses, you know, regular houses. And they bought them. But they weren't in the house. their names, they were in Patrick's name. Even the cars that they drove, his Patrick's name was on the pink slip. So when it all went up in the air, they came. So I know the story's off told, but just simply walk me through, you know, at some point you're, you fall in love and now you're managing, you know, he gets booted out of the band. That year. It was that year. It was that year. That

year that Tony called and said, would you, would you talk to your dad? Would he take us back? Yada yada. And of course, my father's revenge was, of course, I will. And they came back. They would, you know, they'd always complain about each other. It's a band. You know what it's like in a band? Every band complains about everybody all the time. All the time. Hate to blow the mystery, but that's the way it is. Right. And they were always. It's all about Ozzy and this and the other and Aussie. Can I stop you there? Because I'm such a fan and you were there.

And the sense was somehow they turned on him, but I've never really understood why they turned on him the way they did. It was, you know, generally it seems to be couched in he was getting too crazy or something. But was it, you know, the most striking thing to me is because I've seen this footage, it's like suddenly, and I know they did it different times, but like Ozzy singing on the side in front of the speakers and Tony's in the middle. Tony had him move to the side, so Tony could be in the middle. And I think the long and short of it, really, we all know Ozzy was never a good drinker.

He was always the first to be on the floor. I mean, the worst drinker in the world and drug taker. The others could maintain some semblance of we're okay. But Ozzy was always, you know, on the floor. And I honestly think because Ozzy didn't play an instrument, that his value in their eyes was this big. You just sing. You just sing.

All you do is sing. So I honestly think, and it's something I've tried to sort out, but my thing is, is that they were envious because Ozzy got attention, which every lead singer does, it comes with the gig. And they weren't getting the notoriety that he was. And they thought, you don't do anything. You're drunk all the time.

And why do you get all this notoriety? Sure, sure. And I think that had an awful lot to do with it. And they were kids. Yeah, that's... Kids. Yeah, obviously those bridges have been repaired and, you know, mended long ago. But it's funny, too, because...

even as a fan, and I was listening to Sabbath starting in like 74. I was very young when I first heard Sabbath about eight years old. And to me, it just, it still connects with me. I don't know why. I just love them. But the one thing that really does strike me, and because I was a fan during the contemporary times of those 70s and 80s records, I don't think any of us knew his fans that Ozzy had a charisma

that went beyond just being a great singer. He's beloved in a way that very few, people in music are and you love the man, but you've also had a front row seat to like the way he connects with people is very unique. Did you have a sense of it then? Yes. When I started to hang out with the band more and more because really Tony and I were had a friendship like he would come in. You know like I say, give me a call. I'd take him to some clubs, whatever. And Tony's a very sensible person. He's kind of gentlemanly and very gentlemanly and um I mean he's just a nice person to hang with. He's very social. Tony is very social and you know we had a friendship

and I just Ozzie has this thing he's just you can't dislike him he has the best smile in the world the best smile. He would smile at you and, you know, you'd just like, you'd want to hug him. Yeah. And he always remained, he still is a fan of music and other musicians. He's a huge fan. And I think that people got the sense of him that he's very genuine when he says, I love you. Yeah. He does. Yeah. You know, like, and you saw it, he would always say in, concerts, we love you. And I can't think of anybody who ever said it the way he did. People will say,

we love you, thank you, but he would say it through the whole night. And now all these years later, I realized he really meant it. Yeah, he does. And he over and over and over. And there were times when people would say something, oh, Ozzy's crowd is this, that, the other, if you see the Aussie crowd, Jesus, you know, nothing like Stings crowd or the Stones crowd. And what a thing to say? But I understand. And Ozzy would go insane. He would go insane when he would hear those things. Because to him it's insulting, the people he loves.

It's insulting. It's like how dare you. These are my people. How dare you say these things. Yeah. It's beautiful. You know, and it's like ticket pricing. And, you know, oh, you know, if you want to go see the stones, it's this much money.

And he's always very much like that working. mentality. You don't do that. Why make your fans pay more to see you? God bless him. So take me through, you've known him for years, and then one day you're in love and managing. Well, it was when the band had decided definitely Ozzy had to go. Yeah. And Tony said to me, who do you think I could get for a singer? And I said, I know this guy, Ronnie Deo. Yeah. Yeah. So I introduced. them. They got on really well. Because Ronnie was a very social guy too.

Very easy to talk to. And they all hit it off, which was great. And they got rid of Ozzy, which was not great for Ozzy because he didn't have any confidence in himself.

So he thought he was like over, over. I'm embarrassed to go back home to see his wife and kids. embarrassed to tell them. So, but... And then my father and I, and we just said, we can keep both. Why not?

Ah, I see. That's what we do. So did you kind of take over sort of day-to-day management or... Yeah. Okay. So where does this lead to your father accusing you of stealing him and all that? Because I realized that, Oz's record, I realized with Jeff Lynn.

Jeff Lynn, I used to work with all the time and Roy Wood. But for context, Ozzy was signed to Jet. Ozzy was signed to Jet Records. And then Jet Records was distributed by, in those days, CBS, it's now Sony. Sure. So we wanted out because I knew for Ozzy that you wanted out or your father wanted out. I wanted Ozzy out because I knew he would never get any more. money. Never. My dad used to wait after the tour first tour, where's the money? Give us the money.

Because then you used to get paid in cash still in those days. Sure. And I'd have bags of money and he'd say, where's the money? And I'm like, we've got to pay crew, we've got to pay this, that trucks, buses. And I just knew that we would just be workhorses. So Ozzy was still under a contract of jet, even though he'd been kicked out of a cell? Individually. Did he have a key man type of thing? It was all, whenever my dad signed anybody, it wasn't just the band. It was the band and individual. So nobody could?

No. Okay. So do you go to your father and say he needs to get off of this? And is that where the split starts to happen? My father at that time was going through a lot personally. And he had decided to leave my mother and he'd got some young woman. that he was living with here. And his head wasn't in it.

All he wanted was the money. I see. I mean, he always wanted the money. My father's attitude was, I'll make you a star, and I'll take the money. That's the, okay. So what happened first?

You taking a bigger role in Ozzie's musical life or falling in love? Like, how does that? What's the sequence there? Taking care of Ozzy. He was married, two little babies, and it was one of those cases of having such belief in him that this is going to work. Did you just feel it? Yeah.

And then, of course, when we met Randy, it was, you know, we were like the three musketeers. Right. And I managed Randy. And he was under contract to me, not my father. I didn't know that part of the story. No. Oh, very good. And I learned from my father.

Well, you are his daughter. And it was just a very magical time when you believe in something so much and your whole being is in it. And I had a lot to prove. Ozzy had a lot to prove. Randy had a lot to prove. Sure. So it was like, that's all we did was work, work. work. Would you say at that point your faith was greater in Ozzy than Ozzy's faith in

himself? Yes, because he didn't believe in himself. He kept saying, I know, I can't do it without Sabbath. You know, nobody will want me, nobody will remember me, they won't care about me. I'm like, nah, you can do it. Yeah. I have this beautiful memory of playing basketball in my front yard. You know, we had a little hoop, and they said, coming up, the new song from Ozzy, Osbourne, the former lead singer Black Sabbath, but then they went to commercial. Yeah. So I'm just out there shooting baskets. And so it would have been crazy train, I think, would have been the first song.

And it was one of those moments in your life where you stop and you go, what is this? Because I'd heard all the Sabbath records. And I certainly recognized his voice, but it was like it felt like this lightning bolt, like something is happening. Yeah. And I couldn't wait to hear it again. I felt like I was at the middle of something so new. I could really feel it.

And I was, you know, 14 years old playing basketball. But I remember stopping and just looking at the boombox because whatever you all had created in that moment, it was shocking. It had that, like great music has a way of feeling like you're fast forwarding in the timeline all of a sudden. Subject your father's on the business side. So did you guys have an amical, okay, I'm going to manage him or he didn't refuse or like just get me, walk me through the business side of it all. He wasn't actively working my father. He was there, sure, but he wasn't actually physically doing anything. I was doing it.

But Oz is under contract to my father. To your dad. So how does that work? Well, I was doing all the work. We were, he paid him his advance for his first album, which was $50,000 for Blizzard. But we back to back made two albums. Right. while you were waiting for the first one.

Yes. I wanted to ask you, was that waiting because you guys knew you had a hot record and you're trying to set it up? I just said, we're going to spend so long touring the world that we need to have a record to come right away. So we did them back to back. And my father hadn't paid Ozzy or Randy for the second album. Okay. And I was like, you can't do this. They won't.

And I would lie and I'd say they, they don't. refusing to go on stage until you pay them their record of cards. So I was like playing mind games with him. And because I wasn't on his side, that was really the thing that broke. He saw you his siding more with... Yes. Okay. And then he would be him against us. And we were this force and it was just like breaking worldwide. Sure. And he wasn't a part of it. And they kept saying, Randy's terrible, he's got to go. Because they didn't have control of Randy. I see.

So they wanted Randy out. Ah, okay. And we're like, no, you ain't going nowhere. He's staying. And my father, we would hardly speak. And then one year went to a year and a half and it was hostile. But Ozzy's still under contract your daddy. Still under contract.

And then we said, we're getting married. and we won out. Totally, totally out. What do we have to do to get away from you? So now it's just a business thing, right? Yes. Okay. So he said he wanted a million and a half and an album.

And in those days, you know, it was a load of money. That's a lot of money. That's still a lot of money. He wanted a million and a half and another album. So we said, okay. So I had to go to the record company and say, Ozzie's going to be leaving Jet. You want to sign him directly, which they did.

So you got the future advance to... You've got it. Okay. And so they gave me the money to pay my father. And then we gave him, we're thinking, God, what can we give him quick to get rid of it? Like a live record? A live Sabbath's record.

So it was like, sorry to the fans, but we had to do this. Yeah, I like that record still. So... It's kind of fun. So that's got rid of him, but I did get rid of my father. My father was wherever we went, there was somebody, you know, he'd send his little Italian guys that would turn up at gigs and say, the publishing, your father still wants Oz's publishing.

He's not giving up on that. And the guy would sit there and he'd have his foot on the coffee table and he'd have a gun in his boot and he'd pull his trousers up to try and scare me and I'd be like, I don't give what you've got in your boot. I don't give a shit.

Yeah, wow. He's not signing. Wow. Yeah. And so... It was hell. It was hell with my father. The little girl in you

has got to breaks your heart, no? Oh my God. It was like my father had died. I was pining my father. pining for my father. Because up to then you guys had had a good... Yeah. I, listen, with E. L.O., I stood behind him with everything. And I was, you know, Jeff Lynn was a friend of mine. Right. He lived at my house.

Him and his first wife lived at my house with me in L.A. We were, it was like a family. Sure. And then when Jeff said to me, your father owes me $4 million. And I'm like, four million. You know, he doesn't. And that was, Jeff was the thing that actually turned the light on in my head that what people were saying was true. So, walk me through a little bit of what it's like to manage the man that you love.

It's very difficult. It's very difficult, Billy. And even he says, somebody asked him that question. What was it like being married to your manager? and his answer is, I never knew who was talking to me, my wife or my manager. A bit of both, maybe. Well, in many ways, what you would think was best for him as a wife and for your family is probably the best thing for him too. In reflecting on your managing Ozzy, I think not only have you done an incredible job,

and I can give you some specifics of why I think why that is, But I also think that you were very ahead of your time in figuring out that what Ozzy brought to the table and Ozzy's ability to connect with people, you broke him past the boundaries of music, which nowadays is kind of standard operating procedure. But you figure that out way earlier than most people. I don't think anybody in the music business, circa 1986, figured that Ozzy had tons of money in him in 50 different directions. Did you have a prescient sense that that's where the business wasn't going or that's what just how you wanted, how you saw a good business? Does it make sense? Did you have a vision of it or that's just what you felt? I just felt that Ozzy, do you want to know the biggest mistake I ever made with Ozzy? You're going to admit to a mistake. Yep. I have several, Billy. We could be here all night. I got to get ready for this one. He got offered to, go and read for pirates of the Caribbean

and I've never said this to anyone. And you said no. I said no. That wouldn't he have been perfect? He would have been perfect. I know. Maybe it's not too late, but God bless, but that's funny. God, it's interesting

to think of him in that thing. Because when Johnny put, wanted Keith to be a pirate, do you remember? Yeah, of course, yeah. I love that. The Glib version of the question is how do you balance someone who has addiction issues with, you know, making those important professional choices. But I know in your world it's more, it's so much more personal than that. You know what I'm saying?

So, and you're a person who's, to best of my knowledge, I mean, you're basically always been sober. Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen you drunk or high or, you know, I mean, this is the person. Drugs were never. Sure. So stepping outside the rock and roll conversation that we're having, anybody who's struggled with a partner who's struggling, that's a tough thing.

And then when you amplify it into the public sphere, that makes it even more complicated. So what was your, did you have a plan? Did you think I just have to manage this? Like, what was your, as you're going along, how are you figuring this out? After I had my kids, because we had them very early and there was only a year in between each one.

They call the Irish twins. But your whole life changes. You know that. Your whole life changes. It's all about your kids. Everything. And Ozzy left two children with his first wife. And I saw what the children would, you know, the disruption, what it does to kids.

And I thought, I don't, I can't have this happen again. And another three kids. how can you do that? And so every time it would get bad and I'd go, oh Jesus I should just, you know, go.

But you think, no, I've made a commitment. I love him and I cannot have my kids come from a broken home. I cannot. I just can't do it. I've seen the damage. I know the damage. I've lived it. I don't want it for my kids.

and I just adored him so much that whatever he would throw at me, I'd throw back at him. You know, we had a very, very volatile relationship because Ozzy came from that generation. Sure. You know, you can hit a woman, it's fine. You know, and I'd seen so much violence growing up with my dad.

Not that he was violent to me, but with other people. I saw it, yeah. Yeah. And it was just like, well, that's what people do, don't they? It's the same in my world. Yeah. You tell somebody, oh, I'm getting my ass kicked and they say, well, you think it's any different next door?

It's just the world we grew up in. So now, of course, people have different conceptions of it. So for you, was it a, because I meant to ask you this question, it's like, because you've always had a hard charging, aggressive managerial style. And, you know, you certainly believed in what you, you know, you certainly believed in what you you believed in. You know, you were never shy about saying what you felt, and you certainly defended your husband in a million different ways. In almost every case, you were right, he turned out to be the legend that you believed him to be. It's easy to say that now, but, you know, whether it was

stupidity about biting the head off a bat, all that stuff that we would see in Cream Magazine, you know, now people think it's funny, but at the time, the music business was way more conservative and... Oh, conservative, Billy, they would take his albums out of every tower records. They would, you know, ban him on certain radio stations. And it was like, he's not a killer yet. I mean, like...

Yeah. It was just, I mean, serious. I can remember CBS calling me and saying, if Ozzy ever comes to our premises, or after he bit the dove off in the... the meet and greet that we had. He's, we will stop releasing his records and we will not let him be sold to another label. We will just destroy him.

Yeah, and they, and back then they had that power. That was a real, that's a real threat. Yeah. It's not like now where he can run to social media and get the fans to rally behind. Back then, if they wanted to digitally, analog assassination, if they wanted to, you know, they could get all those stations to stop playing your records. Remember that? I don't know if you know that story where there was all the payola going on in the late 70s

and Pink Floyd got sick of it. So they basically said, we won't be part of the payola process. And CBS tried to work the record without the payola. And every radio station in America basically said, okay, we won't play Pink Floyd anymore. That's right. And that's when Pink Floyd learned that the power that they thought they had, they didn't have. They didn't have. And it was all like, you know, oh, you need a new car.

Oh, you want to go to the big game or the World Series, whatever it was. All of those radio people would be there. You know, that's how the perks of the job. They weren't going to stop that. So the question that I was after was, and this is why I kind of connected it to the world that you and Ozzy grew up in this kind of post-war world. It's like, because sometimes people ask me like, what is success? Is success winning? or is success survival?

Survival. That's what I thought you'd say, but I wanted to hear it from you. It's absolutely survival. Just keep. And the whole thing I always used to say to Ozzy was, we just want to stay here. You never want to go here because there's only one way and that's down. We just want to stay here. Consistent, consistent.

I think as an outside observer, and obviously we know each other a bit, but I think Ozfest is probably your greatest coup. Did you have a logic behind that at the time? Yeah. So tell me your logic. I want to see if it matches what I think. Okay, well, everybody was playing Lollapalooza, everybody. And, you know, they had all those alternative stages.

They had the singing monks. They had Tom Jones, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, well, what about Ozzy? and the agent for Lollapalooza said, Ozzie's not relevant. And that made off. Because I thought, how disrespectful...

How about half the bands playing owe a debt to Ozzie? It's like, how disrespectful to say that about any artist. But especially someone that was very influential to the alternative. It was like... Yeah. world. I mean, I mean, everybody, but Peter Hook from New Order, Kirk Cobain, me, we were all in debt to Sabbath on some level. Sabbath is one of the weirdest bands in the world in that they really get love from the alternative community in a way that almost no metal band ever has. No, I never will.

Probably. It's, it's, it's, I can remember, um, Ozzy was at a studio and Kurt was in the and he, in another room, the studios, and he came in and he'd written Ozzy on his knuckles. Okay. That's all you need to know, right? Yeah. And it was like, Ozzy was like, oh my God, that guy in that sweater, you know the one. That little kid. Yeah. I want to talk about your life in television, because ultimately this interview is about you and you've had a very interesting life. But I don't know how to frame the question. So maybe you can frame it better than I can, but there's been a lot of fighting. There's been a lot of skirmishes.

Does that come from a sense of, again, the need to survive. I need to defend what I'm after. Does it come from a sense of justice or, you know, like the one thing I do know is you don't like bullshit? No, I don't like to pretend. And the thing is, for me, going to. into TV, I looked at it as a manager. I'm not an artist. I'm a manager. I don't have an artistic phone in my body, but I just look at it as if... Sure. But did you ever have aspirations of... It sounds glib to put it, like making it about you, because... No, never. And it came as a complete surprise

when I was asked to do things when we finish the Osborne. Yeah. And I'm like, Okay, what's the deal? If the deal is good, I'll take it. Did someone approach you to do the show, or was an idea that you had? The Osbournes? No, it was the kids in Ozzy. I wasn't in it, did cribs. Okay. And it was the most requested cribs. So they came to us and said, well, we want to do something. What can we do? So then you bring in people and people start riffing.

Did you, were you hesitant to let people inside your world as much as you ended up I mean, it became very personal. Yeah. No. I was like, no. It was... Did you see how it would help the business? No, because initially it was only meant to be three weeks and it ended up three years.

Yeah. And that's how we got to own the Osbournes because the guys came, the film crew came, and a year later, they were still filming and it hadn't been released. Oh, wow. And then they said, we've got to do a deal here. Am I like, okay? Wow. Yeah, I mean, now looking back, I mean, it's such a groundbreaking series.

You know what I mean? Do you see it that way? Funnily enough, we'd looked back on it as a family together. We were looking at it all as a family, the four of us. And it actually disturbed me. Really? Yeah, it did. It disturbed me.

Um, for my kids. Mm. You know, Amy didn't want to do it. I remember talking to her at that time. Yeah. I asked her point blank, why do you do? She says, I don't want anything to do with this mess. Yeah.

And I, I looked at my kids and what they were subjected to because I allowed them to and their behavior. And I was shocked. Mm. Yeah. Okay. But you're in it so deep. And when it came out and it. and it was like, everybody thought it was amazing.

I'm like, do they? Okay. Yeah. I can remember my best friend who is an agent said to me, you can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You've got to stop it. And I'm like, oops, too late.

Too late. It did, am I right or wrong? And this might be an improper assumption, it did seem to revive Ozzy's musical life in a way, Was it because he, am I wrong about that? No, you're right because there were people that had kind of heard of Ozzy's name, but had never seen him. Sure.

And so they saw him and they either fell in love with him or hated him, but more fell in love with him. And then they would go out and buy his old record. So it helped everything because fans that we never thought he would ever reach. But it's interesting. It's interesting that it was more of an art. organic process inside your world. Because looking from the outside, it's like, it seems like a genius coup, you know.

They call it like first mover advantage that you'd figured something out. No. But Oz Fest, you know, that I think... That's... It's because they were so disrespectful about Ozzy, I was like, I'm going to show you, you bastards. How dare you say that about an artist. And I went insane, came up with the idea, well, we'll do our own first.

will do a heavy metal festival. It's never been done, let's do it. It definitely worked. And it worked, and it was like 20-odd years of fantastic summers, fantastic bands. Look at the relationships that were made because of that festival. Exactly. Amazing. And what it did was it then opened the doors for other promoters in other countries

to do the same thing. So for the genre of music, it was partially. the torch. And I look at the bands that are now doing their own festivals and I'm like, it's great. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. At what point do you make peace with your father again? Okay. There were years that it was just horrific for me. I mean, we'd be asked to leave restaurants, certain restaurants at my father. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, everybody in the beginning thought that, Ozzie and I would fail. Everybody. The whole industry thought that we would fail. Well, they don't know you very well.

And we had a really, really hard time. I remember one time I came back from a meeting and the nanny was in the hotel room. This was before we had a house here and my father had been on the phone and spoken to the nanny and said, tell my daughter to get out of town and get those kids and leave this town. Yeah. Okay, so how do you make peace with that? My father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and he'd lost all his money. He ended up and he had air supply. That was the only thing he was managing and then that dwindled and we've always, always, our entire family has always been huge spenders. My father would be, you've got it, you spend it, I'll make more. And it, you'd, and it, kind of passed that on to me, unfortunately. But he had nothing. And he had Alzheimer's. And

my mother had died. And there he was. Did you pick up the phone or he picked up the phone? No, Ozzy. I wouldn't pick up the phone. So Ozzy picked up the phone. Ozzy said, you have to go to your father. So how do you feel when he tells you that? I'd like I just paid a tax bill of my fathers because not only did I work for my father but all his companies everything everything was in my name

everything Did you know that at the time? Yeah and I trusted him I didn't know We're flying to Singapore We're getting you know 50 mil from this bank in Singapore Sign for it Sharon sign for it you know, oh, okay, I'll sign for it.

Yeah. Bull, boom, you know. Wow. And. Did you go see him or call him? I called him. And it was early Alzheimer's, so, you know. And then he had a bad heart.

And then I said, okay, I'm coming to England. I'm going to get you fixed up. And I'm going to bring you back to America. And that's what I did. I brought him back. I put him in an apartment. with nurses and then after a while he needed to go into a home because it was full-on Alzheimer's and it sucked big time yeah it's a wicked wicked thing to ever have i i went through it with

somebody in my life and watched it up close and it was very hard it's very hard it's it's heartbreaking and i used to have um a sound system in his room for him so he could listen to all his favorite music And he would sing along, but you ask him how he's doing nothing. And that's the healing of music. He would sing along, not mess up one lyric. Yeah, yeah. Was that hard for you to make peace, or did you say, I'm just going to do what I need to do and then kind of sort it out later?

Does that make sense? Yeah. And then when my father died, I went and sat with him. for a while, said everything I wanted to say. Yeah. I hear you. My father passed away a couple years ago and I'm still in that space, right? I haven't quite worked it out yet, but I get it.

Did you have a good relationship with your dad? It was back and forth. It was back and forth. He had such terrible drug issues that, you know, like a lot of people with those issues, it's like one day it was the greatest and awesome and awesome best daddy in the world. because he loved music and we'd talk about Jimi Hendrix and the time you did this and then the next day he'd be like you know give me 15 grand and I'd be like why because I need it sounds like my dad but my dad didn't do drugs or drink the drugs is the complicated thing because you're always in that space of like I did say one thing to

once to him when I said because I was always very judgmental of him doing drugs and I said to him I think I understand now, Daddy. And he said, what do you understand? And I said, I think if you hadn't done drugs, you would have killed yourself. And he said, that's true. So at least I found some piece there was like, even though I don't like it and I don't like what it did to our world, I also can appreciate that that was your way of staying here. And I do think that was true.

Because I truly believe that the drink and the drug makes addicts feel the way they always want to feel. And they're trying to fill that big hole that they all have inside of them. Yeah. Well, I mean, think of all the people, your husband included, that you've watched throw away opportunities and moments in life because they're just not able to hold it together. It's a tough thing for everybody involved. So because of the Osbournes, they start calling you for television. Are you surprised by that? Totally. I'm like, oh, okay.

and then I get a call from a company that wanted to do a chat show and then... Sure. And this thing is, with me, I was on a... Because I'd been in the industry my entire life, I get it. I get it. And it's like people who make TV think that they're saving lives. It's TV. It's a TV show that's always...

we're making. It's not that important in the big picture of life. But people who work in TV are like, you know, this, that and the other. And I, a lot of the time I would be off because I wasn't getting paid what my male counterpart was getting paid. I have a feeling that didn't sit well with you. No. And to me off big time. And a lot of things that they were doing I didn't agree with. But I played the game. And then in the end I was getting greedy.

And then it's like, what am I doing? Sure. You know. Again, we're not saving lives here. It's just TV. And it's, and everything I've always said to artists is, if you don't want it, someone else will. You're replaceable, replaceable.

For sure. And there's always talent coming up. That's one thing you can never stop. Wars can't stop it. There's always that wonderful, creative spirit in people that will always go on. And I'm, I was just like, I don't need this. I don't.

What am I doing? What am I doing? I'm prostituting myself out for a paycheck. Was the attraction that it was good for business? No, it was, okay, I've done it. You get on my nerves. I don't really like it, so I'd leave. Or then I would have an argument with America's got talent here.

I fell out with horribly NBC. The people who I fell out with have since been let go under bad circumstances. And I'm very happy about that. And it was awful. The situation with NBC was horrible. They had offered my son a reality show, which was SAS forces with celebrities,

who's going to win, this sort of thing. Okay, sure. And my son had always loved extreme sports. and things like that, shooting and all of that. And he was really up for it. And he got diagnosed with MS. Right. And we had to tell them.

And then they went, oh, no, you're a liability. We can't have you. And they just chopped him off at the knee. And I said, well, why doesn't he host it? Sure. He knows all the language, everything that you're doing. Let him host it. No, he's a liability.

And then I just said, fuck you, I'm leaving this show. And I left under such bad circumstances. I couldn't believe the way they were behaving. And I don't care because I'm not looking for my next gig. So I can turn around and say to them, go fuck yourselves, take your little TV, shove it up your ass and leave. And they're not used to people.

people talking to them like that. Yeah. They get like, she's insane, she's this. Well, I am insane, but it's like... I don't want to rehash the stuff that happened with the talk show, the talk. But I certainly didn't like the way you were treated. That seemed strange to me. It was very, very strange.

And I was sticking up for my friend who I've known for years. Yeah. And I know for a fact, P.S. Morgan is not a racist. Yeah. absolutely not a racist. And I didn't like what they kept saying he was, and I was standing up for him saying, no way. And why does, even if he was a racist, which he's not,

and a friend of mine, why does that make me a racist? Because I'm his friend. Well, we've lived through this very strange time, which hopefully is ending of this kind of guilt by association and innuendo, and clickbait. and I really hope that we can kind of come out some other side because it's very damaging to the West where we really are the place of freedom.

And we're setting a very terrible example if we're trying to take away, like let's call it the ability to even just disagree. You know, I always love that saying, let's agree to disagree. It works perfect in a band. You're having the band argument and you say, let's just agree to disagree.

Exactly. And the thing is, because, you know, everybody wants to know, who are you voting for? actually it's none of your business right or wrong and they either like you or don't like you depending on who you're voting for and it's like it's none of your business yeah well hopefully we're coming i hope i think please jesus um it's sort of a general question and you can take it any way you want um you've had health struggles and thank god you got through that and um i saw something where you they said you've been open about your depression, but I don't know what that means. Is that,

is that something I just read or is that true? No, it's true. I've had it for years. And Do you think it's chemical or is it sort of unresolved stuff? I think back now and things that I've learned and read and I honestly think it was, I was born with it. I've always had that, you know, put on a jolly face, showbiz face. And then, you know, when everybody's gone, you're like this. And I've always, always had it. And then something else, I didn't realize that I had ADHD until last year. That's pretty late in the game to figure that one out.

I just thought that I had one of those heads that didn't stop, didn't stop. And it's like, you know, I've got the TV going in my head, the radio. and an album, it's like all going on at one time. I've got all of these different things going on. And it's, that was really enlightening. Because I just thought, why doesn't anybody else have this? And I can't explain it. Would it voice itself in insomnia or nervousness or anxiety?

Never sleep. Always been just a couple of hours. Really? Oh, yeah, I'm up all night. You know, and the head starts. all the shit. So, because I think most people look at lives like ours and they say, you know, it's hard for them to relate because in the American estimation, and you've been in America for

so long, is if you have success, that's the cure all. And of course we know that does, it doesn't work like that. In many ways, I'm not saying it makes it worse, it makes it more difficult because you're navigating public, private, different struggles. So. I'm too in this business. You don't want to show people your insecurities. Oh, no, that's the worst.

The worst. It's, is, and maybe that goes back to my question about the public squabbling is, and it's, I'm not trying to get anything specific because it's not important to me, but is that maybe part of what made you feel like you had to be feisty, do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, sometimes it's easier to defend the front gate than when somebody gets to the door, you know? I think a lot of it had to do with my time that I was born. And also what I did for a profession, there wasn't many women doing it.

If you were a woman, you were what they call the secretary. And you go and you, you know, you do your letters and you do my appointments. And that's what women do. And you look nice and you take care. When you started managing Ozzy in 1970, whatever, I mean, how many women managers were there in the world? I think one, Billy Joel's wife. But it's... It is very much a boys club.

Unbelievable. And you know, the record industry in those days was go to a strip club, get some hookers. Oh, we go to a game and then we go to the strip club. Or golf or... Everything. So you never accepted. And it was either... She's here because of her father.

father, he's powerful, or her husband, and it was like, no, fuck you. And it was... No one says, fuck you better than you. It just has a ring to it. But it just, it was just something that I had to survive. And I, this is all I know. Right. I didn't know anything else. This is how I live. So have you survived? Yeah, I've done extremely well, learned a lot, horrible mistakes, but nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect. So what hills are left to climb for you? I mean, you have done it all. To be a good grandmother. I like that. Yeah, a good grandmother. Be wise for my grandkids, teach them wise things. And take care of my hubby. Yeah. I saw the the speech he gave at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I guess what I'm after is, it seemed that

him getting in on his own was really important, not because he didn't deserve it. Of course he deserves it. He should have been in long ago, but it seemed to strike a particular nerve in him. Is that accurate? Yes, because he still thinks, a part of him still thinks that he's less than. It's amazing. Yeah, it was... Well, maybe that's part of his charm, you know, because he really is that guy, you know?

I mean, I've met him many times and he really is that guy. Yeah, he is. He doesn't have a bad bone in his body. It's kind of remarkable. He doesn't. And he has no jealousy. He's happy for everyone that does good and, you know, he's a very delicate soul. And it sounds crazy saying that about Ozzy, but he's a very delicate soul.

But all people, I honestly feel that, again, it comes with being a creative force. Really, all artists are delicate. Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you, because your lives are so intertwined, you know, when did he retire? Like, you remember there was the retirement tour? That was a long ago, right? Oh, that was in 92. Okay, that's what I'm saying.

That was because at that time, he was having problem with one of his legs. And we took him to a doctor and he was wrongly diagnosed with MS. They said he had MS, but he didn't. He had Parkinson's. The guy just gave us the wrong diagnosis. So I thought he had MS. So I said, okay, we're retiring. We're going back to England.

We're taking care of Daddy. So when I got to England and I went to some professors, they said he doesn't have MS, which of course he didn't. But they didn't pick up it with Parkinson's because they're very similar. So I guess what I'm after is, it seems like, and it doesn't matter the year, it's just the idea. It seemed at some point he clicked into a phase. And I think he even saw quotes along the way. this is not recent, but in my mind,

that he needed music to keep going. And I'm not saying to live, but it seemed like music kept his spirit up or his... He says, his own words are, it's the only thing I've ever been good at, and he doesn't want to give it up. Well, good for him. Yeah.

He gets such joy from it. He loves it, just loves it. Loves. You know, some people can just kind of cut that side of their life off, and then go and retire. And I've seen it, yeah. Yeah, me too. He can't do it.

He loves it so much. And that's what's so tough because, you know, he wants to be with the guys touring and... Yeah. Okay, so last question. Could you have imagined, like, I mean, them on the floor in 1971 at your dad's office or when you guys fell in love,

like, that you guys went on this crazy? journey. I mean, it's a really unique, in a way, very American, maybe I'm being biased. America has a way of creating this strange opportunity where people step forward. And you and your husband have stepped forward so many times. Even just preparing for the questions, it's like, and then Sharon did this, and then Ozzy did this. And then there's, I mean, we could talk for 18 hours about this tour or that thing or this feud. I mean, had a very full life. Do you feel that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm tired. You?

Yeah, I'm tired. Does you want to be a grandma now? Listen, I got five of them, five grandkids and hopefully more because Kelly's looking forward to having more babies, but I'm tired. Really? It's okay. How about this? I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.

Okay. I love this part. And I can't keep screaming. I can't keep screaming and trying to make things change. It's still, you know, the one thing that gets me is, and I try and explain this to all young musicians, if you see a house that you want, you go to the bank, you ask for a mortgage,

they will give you the mortgage, you pay off that mortgage, and then the house is yours. Not in the music business. Not in the music industry. You pay for your marketing, for everything. And they own that album. And I cannot.

And it's too the same with everything, film, everything. It's like, what are we doing here? And then, you know, now it's, they're insisting on the publishing and merchandising. and it's got to a point where there's so much money in it that they forget that it's human beings that they're dealing with. We're not cars, we're not Kansas soup, it's human beings. And it just gets me like this. I'll tell you a little story and it's a good way for us to end.

I was in a meeting, a big meeting, and they were showing all this data about my band. And they were doing that very kind of subtle way. like if you could only point this direction, you know, it would be in your best interest to point this direction. And then I asked a question about something to do with radio or something. And they said, well, this station is still mad at you about something you said in 92. This station is mad that you didn't play their, their fish fry in 97. And they just kept going on. And I'm not a person who's quick to lose his temper.

I'm actually, when I get mad, I get really mad. I don't think you've ever seen me really mad. I haven't. Never. I have a horrible temper when I do lose my temper. And out of nowhere, it was like, you know, something snapped and I slammed my fist on the table. And everybody kind of did one of these, like, what the fuck? And I said, quoting Popeye, I am what I am. the thing this makes me great is the thing that makes me terrible.

The thing that you think makes me markable is the thing that makes somebody want to puke in a bucket and never hear my voice again. I can't separate who I am. I am the way I am and even in our squabbles in the years. It's like, you are you and I am me. And that's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's kind of the way it's supposed to be.

They're trying to saw the edges off of the true weirdos and the true one of a kinders, you know. They would love to turn into a cookie dough business. Of course, but look at it now with all the Korean bands that come out and all this K-pop. Have you ever heard how they do that music? Oh, please. I just... Let me just tell you one quick thing. Because I had a friend, he went over there for a while, lived over there, and I ended up hanging out with those people. So they have these rooms and literally in one room, they'll just write choruses. They don't try to write a song. They just write choruses. And in another room, they have the kids are really good at writing bridges. And in another room, they have kids are really good at writing verses. That's how they do it. So they literally just

write verses all day, because that's what they're good at these kids. And then when it's all said and done, they have a pile of bunch of stuff, they'll go, I'll take that chorus, that bridge, and that verse. And that's how they make those songs. It's just a factory. Oh, it's a complete factory. And you know they'll chop these kids up to make them look kind of like more western and then you know they'll use them as soon as they get old out a younger one comes in and it's just soul destroying totally soul destroying well we're not going to be able to fix it no we can't you know last thing i would say is like you saw in your youth and obviously your daddy saw this a moment of rock and roll being born in the in the greatest music engine of all time which was the

UK in that period and then your husband you know and of course many other pioneers invented a genre of music that nobody knew existed everybody held their nose and said to hell with it and here we all still are talking about black Sabbath 60 years later and all this stuff so there is some justice but I think at the end of the day they still win I don't know why I'm just cynical about it do you feel that one? I am. Listen, one of the guys that runs the biggest record company in the world turns around and goes, we have to fuck the artist before they fuck us. And that's your philosophy. They say that out loud or you just heard that behind the scenes?

Out loud. Okay. And it's like, what? No. Yeah. Why can't it be win-win? Well, I think that gets to the reason why they're in the business. We're in the business because we love it. We love the concert. The lights going down. They're not in the business for the moment the lights go down. No.

No. They're not. There's always that guy, I remember. It was like, I called it, I'm the guy. I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. I'm the guy who found guns and roses. I'm the guy. Usually a guy.

So, but we're us. God bless. Thank you for coming. It's so good to see you. You too.