The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with Steve Vai for a wild ride through arenas, rehearsal rooms, and beehives. They swap stories about outlandish ’80s stage antics, the “gunslinger” spirit of guitar duels, and how obsession, not discipline, fuels mastery. Vai breaks down his early passion for composing, his years with Frank Zappa, the hire wire act of replacing Yngwie Malmsteen and following Eddie Van Halen, plus how to survive the smoky Zen of David Lee Roth during the ‘shred’ years. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We wore the most outlandish clothes. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as you. I remember you guys just, there seemed to be a lot of running. Running, running, running. It was fantastic. You've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities. Yeah.

I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like those guys. You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar. For some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time I couldn't. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you for the invite.

So tell me if you don't like the analogy, but, and it comes from seeing you, it was the tour, the Generation Axe, I saw that in Dallas. I didn't know if you knew I was there that night. No. I went backstage and I talked to, I think I saw Nuno, but I didn't really see anybody. I didn't want to bother anybody. But it comes from watching this thing that you guys would do on stage, and I'll get to that in a second. But I love the analogy, and it's off-used, it's the idea of, like, guitarists as gunslingers.

Yeah. This idea of, like, you know, the Sergio Leone. Yeah. So, and I'm not saying you're someone who prides himself as being like the fastest gun in the West. I've never gotten that feeling from you. In fact, I've read where you've sort of dissuaded people from focusing too much on that. Is that fair? Well, I would say so.

I like having facility. It's a challenge to keep up. Yeah. You know? Okay, so let me start. How do you keep it up at your age? Because I'm 57 and I've been playing 40 years. Yeah.

And at some point, the joints start to go like, take it easy, buddy. Yeah. We're kind of like, I don't know why, but when I was. was younger, I chose the route of being fascinated by chops. Okay. You know, so it was an interesting discovery, and it was just something as simple as, look, if you sit down and just practice, you get better. And when I started getting better, it gives you a feeling of enthusiasm, self-respect,

which I needed at the time. Okay. So it becomes sort of like an addiction. So for me, now practicing endlessly is not for everybody. It's only for those that have a pull to do it. You know, like you can't, you can try to force it. Yeah.

But it's, if it doesn't feel natural to you, to want to. Yeah. So in a normal day, what would have been a practice amount of time? Well, my schedule back then, I was happy if I got nine. hours a day. I thought I was doing well at four. That is good. Four hours a day is great. Nine is like, wow. I was very neurotic, very, uh, uh, that's a good word. Yeah, myopic, you know, because once I discovered this and you know, this is what age, just so we can, 12, 13, 14, 12, that's a very early age to go that deep in on. Well, I started going deeper in like 13. Okay, but still,

most kids at 13 are thinking about a lot of other stuff, you know. Yeah. I, uh, I, uh, Just, it just had such a pulse, such an interest, such a joy, such a, uh, Was it the exploration or was it the discipline? Well, the funny thing was it didn't feel like discipline. Okay. You know, discipline, I'm not, people say you must have been very disciplined, you know. And sometimes I would try to, I would go to sleep early on a Friday so I could wake up and practice all the way until Monday when I had to go to school.

So I get like 20, 30 hours. And people say we must have been very disciplined. And I'm not a very disciplined person that way. Okay. You know, passion, it was a passion. And you understand this. And because passion is a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline. You know, discipline implies you have to fight something.

You have to push yourself to do something that you don't really want to do. You know, but you've got to do it. But passion says you're going to do this because you want to do it. Yeah. It'll be challenges along the way. But there's never the thought of giving up or failing. It's in your heart. Yeah, it's in your heart.

It's like a little secret that you create with yourself. So playing along with my gunslinger image, who would be a gunslinger that you would not want to face out on the dusky? Oh, geez. It happens all the time. Well, I've seen it, I'm getting there. But I'm saying, just throw out a name of somebody that you like would think, like, oh, that guy is, that guy on the draw is hard to beat. Oh, well, there's guys.

It's all in good fun, obviously. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, when you're in the situation and if you have the confidence and you decide that, well, I can only do the best I can do, and you're free. You're clear. But there's guys that if I was standing next to, I'd be like, If Alan Holdsworth was, you know, I'd be like, okay, wait a minute, folks. Yeah.

I don't know if I could, you know. The reason I thought of this analogy in speaking with you was when I saw you guys in Dallas, and I don't remember the song you guys were playing, but you were out there with InVey and you guys were kind of doing a trading back and forth thing. Do you remember the song that you guys would do it on? Black Star, I think. Yeah, I think it's, yeah, right, that makes sense, right? It's kind of a halftime, like, too.

Yeah. Right. And you and Inveh were having a lot of fun going back and forth. And he played this one run, and he did some, I can't even describe it other than he started here and he ended up here. Yeah, it's kind of hard to describe those things he does. Right. I mean, it was so, it was probably the greatest 10 seconds of guitar playing I've ever seen in my life. Oh, right.

And then, you know, he does this thing and like a gunslinger, he puts this thing and you're supposed to go. And you literally went like, I'm taking. I did that a few times with them. And I didn't know if it was a schick or whatever, but so I actually went back and found the clip. It's on YouTube somehow of that show in that moment. Yeah. And I was like, okay, is this moment as good as I thought it was? And it was.

It was some sort of crazy moment where it's like somehow in that all those years and all that discipline. And then obviously standing across from you, you guys having a little bit of fun jousting. Yeah. And that sort of beautiful moment of like, wow. Yeah. Two gunslingers and he got you good because you literally just go, okay, I'm done. Sure, yeah, because, you know, Inveh is a special case. He very much is.

You know, I loved the idea of being able to shred as they say. And I honed that skill. But Invee, when he hit the scene, it was a different kind of a shred. He all drove us back to our practice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he let us know what... I was like, what is Phrygian? You know, I was like, suddenly I care about the Frigian scale because of Inveh.

That's Invee, the Phrygian scale. But he had a different kind of approach from the germination of his interest. And that was violin playing. Yeah, Paganini. So Paganini and stuff. So his inner ear was hearing that kind of thing, which is not very, in a sense, it's not as guitaristic as somebody listening to Jimmy Page or that kind of thing. And when we get up on the stage together and we're trading like that, it's really a great moment, you know, because Inve, you know, standing with another musician and actually trading licks like we do and I do with all the G3, Generation Act, all this kind of thing.

You know, it requires listening very intently and then responding in a way that, you know, is appropriate. And with guys like Invei, you can't compete. You know, like if I'm with Joe Satriani or any of these guys, you can't compete with the best of them. They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you. You know, like I have to be more Steve Vai, that weird, quirky guy than I have been before when, you know, somebody does something that's the top of their game. So it's a wonderful opportunity. Yeah. So when Invee does his, you know, that monster is kind of a riff.

What is that? It's his thing, you know. I think, you know, it's part of the show, you know, because it's fun. Yeah. Because I can't, I don't do that. Yeah. But standing next thing, they will compel me or Joe or anybody. It compels you to reach into your taste.

I know there's various versions of a G3 and I can never think of the Generation X. Is that, was that your brainchild or whose brainchild was that? G3 was Joe, Satriani, and Generation X was something that I pulled together. What I like about it as a fan of guitar playing and guitar players is that it shows that there's an esteem club that you can reach and yet there's a special camaraderie that goes on with players. of that level. I don't consider myself in that league. I can play. But that's a different level.

And it's so cool to see this sort of like mutual admiration society. Yeah. Because guitar playing at that level is kind of a lonely thing. And in the world that you and I grew up in, it was more of a, it was also, I'm better than you. That's, there's a lot of that. There was a lot of like I had to beat, again, the Gunslinger thing. I have to beat you because if I can't beat you, I don't win whatever game I'm after over here. Yeah. I think the game's changing. in the last 10, 15 years where there's sort of more suppleness in the market for like, hey, there's a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy, and it doesn't have to be defined by ego or who's the best. Well, it's a crazy kind of a perspective because, as you know, it's all subjective.

And the best may exist in things like sports. Yeah. You know, but for instance, in the shredder world, back then, Even more so now in the underground, there's evolution, you know, of the way these people are playing. When I saw you guys play, it was, I can never say his name, right, Abassi. Tosin, Tosan Abasi. I mean, all those, yeah. Totally from a different world than we grew up in.

Yeah. And bringing in a whole new language, a whole new, even the guitar, the instrument. Everything. Tosin's contribution to the formula was fantastic. Yeah. But the enduring feature of anybody that plays an instrument is going to be tied at the hip with the effectiveness of their melody. Okay. You know, there has to be melody.

Shredding is fun, it's fine. Well, eight-year-old kids are playing an eruption now. Yeah. So that is the distinguishing fact. Yeah. Jobs really are not, they're not less meaningful, but they're not meaningful in the way that they were at one point because it was a, It was an elite club who could play at that level. Yeah. Now so many people can play at that level.

And beyond. And I can tell you how to become a virtuoso very easily. Okay, tell me. I'm still after it. Yeah. You have to practice nonstop and practice perfectly. And you have to practice fast. And you have to have bulletproof intonation. And this is an intellectual exercise. Sure. And when I was younger, that's what I did. I set the clock. and I set the metronome.

There wasn't a lot of melody involved, you know. But luckily for me, I was a huge fan of like 70s, top 40. I love melody, melody. Yeah. So the ability to shred is fine and good. But without melody, there's no shelf life in a performer's career. I'll even say that. Yeah.

Yeah. I just, I wanted to ask you, I didn't think to ask it, but it made sense to me in the context. Who's the greatest guitar player that you stood there and watched and thought, my God, that's just like, that's the mountain for me personally. Yeah, Alan Holdsworth. Right. Can you break that down a bit? Because, sorry, growing up in the generation that I did, okay, I'm in the guitar magazines, I'm reading about you, you know what I mean, I'm hearing all these things. and everybody would talk about Holsworth, like he was this kind of spinning deity. But as a kid, you go grab that record

and you put it on, and I think I don't really... No, as a kid, it was Jimmy Peck. But I'm saying for me, Holdsworth still remains a bit of a cipher. Like, I certainly understand the influence and the technical mastery involved. And, like, even the fluidity in his playing, if that's a fair thing to say.

But I'm saying, I never found that emotional connection to his work? Yeah, there's a, it's more of a intellectualized sophistication, sophisticated listening. Okay. And it, for me, it tickles a particular part of my brain because it encompasses all of these elements.

Like Alan, the thing that I love most about him, and when I was a kid, it was Jimmy Page. Sure. Jimmy Page, by the way, if anybody wants to know, Jimmy Page. Was it the mystique in the whole thing? Or like... The way he, the choices of riffs, the way he played them, the mystique, the fact that he produced that stuff.

There's no choices were supreme. Oh, my God. He played such cool stuff. Such cool stuff. And with such an attitude and such a mystique and such a class act. I don't know if you follow his Instagram. Oh, I do, yeah. It's fantastic.

It's like there's his book. You know, he's telling us everything. Well, you really see that literacy is not the right where you see there's an intellectual. drive in Jimmy that goes beyond. Yeah. Like, let's call it the rock mystique of Jimmy. Yeah. The real Jimmy coming out of studio system, being a studio player,

learning what he learned and figuring out what he figured out in many ways before other people did. Yeah. Including the people he kind of copiously copped from. Yeah. But he put it in this stew that was very singular. Yeah, he had it all going. Oh, his mind is incredible. Yeah.

But someone like Alan Holdsworth is more like a, um, Or Jeff Beck even, totally different worlds. But they're craftsmen. Alan Holdsworth, the reason why I'm so attracted to him, because his musical mind is unique in that... So, for instance, when I moved out to California in 1980, I was doing transcriptions to make a couple of bucks. And he called me, and he was writing a book on his wild chords.

Okay, because he played those crazy things. But Alan didn't really know traditional music. He had his own vocabulary. He had his own way of constructing, you know, chords, his own understanding of how they go on the neck. Okay, that helps me understand him a little bit because I could never understand why someone of your caliber would sort of point at him. And even Eddie Van Halen would talk about holds one. Yeah. So this is just his musical mind. Sure.

So he didn't even understand how to translate that into conventional notation. to write this book. So that's what I was helping me with. But in the process, I got to recognize a person who was almost like if you left people on a desert island, you know what I mean, and just gave them a couple of tools. And the real brilliant ones built things. That's what Alan did. So his way of approaching notes, now, to a lot of people, it sounds like crazy notes going around the place. But if you're into connecting the musical dots of music theory and melody, yeah, I'll use the word jazz. It's not quite relatable. But jazz is like a formulaic in that this is the chord and these are the notes you can use. And by the way, the next chord comes in the

next bar and it's totally different. And now you can use this. Sure. So in, in, The lipid jazz playing is people who know the chords and the arpeggios. And then what you hear is ripping arpeggios, but there's no soul in it. There's no, the mind, it's more mental than actually coming from a soulful place. Math. And that's fine, you know, it's a process. But someone like Alan or a great jazz player who doesn't even know anything about it. You know a jazz player you love.

Oh, Wes, West Montgomery. My dad saw him once in the 60s. My dad was a guitar player in. Yeah, I know. He said, thank you. He said what blew his mind, he said it was just a club gig, and he said it was just him on a stool. And he said he just couldn't believe what was coming out of this one man.

Yeah, that happened. And even 30 years later, he would talk about seeing West Montgomery with a certain awe. Yeah. Like, I know how to play guitar, but I couldn't do that. No, yeah. That happened to me when I watched Joe Pass play. Okay. Or Alan.

Yeah. Have you ever heard that beautiful, it's Joe Pass and the pianist Oscar Peterson? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They do Porrigi and Bess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Oscar's playing harpsichord for some reason. Yeah, very unique. And interestingly enough, Joe Pass didn't know much about music at all.

That's so funny. Yeah. It's all here. Yeah. That's why he's so inspired. We played once with George Lynch from Dawkin, and we were sound checking at what used to be universal. And I said something, and I know basic music theory, but I said something, and he said, I don't know the notes. And I thought, how can you play like that?

And he said, I literally just figured out where I wanted to go, and that's the way I play. Oh. You know, like, he'd never, like, he just learned, like, if I play here, that feels right. And so all his playing was completely instinctive. Yeah. And obviously had the gift to express it. So when you do meet people like that, and I've met a few, it's sort of, it's humbling. It's like there's sort of music untamed in a way.

Yeah. I've met many people like that. Yeah. They're not, they don't really retain theory information, but they just own it. Maybe it's a different brain, right? Yeah, it's a different. Yeah. So you talked about playing as a,

a kid, and I'm sure it's been off-explored because you've been interviewed so many times. But when you're, I guess what I'm after is, and I'll give the idea in reverse, it's not fair, but you've always struck me as somebody who, it maybe took time because I realized it's not one moment, but you kind of had to figure out your own way, that the ways presented to you weren't like it's not that they weren't satisfying they weren't you and they and then over time you created almost like hybridity I think you nailed it okay great so so at 13 14 obviously you're like I love Led Zeppelin or something yeah but where it's where in there did you start to see like I like that but I've got this other thing because you know in 18 you're

you know you're talking to Frank Zappa like yeah take me at least a little bit how you sort of recognize that there's this other voice in me that I have to figure out. Because standard rock and roll presentation of the guitar circa in 1973 was, well, you can be like Jimmy Hendricks or he can be like Jimmy Page or he can be like Jeff Beck. But you've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities. Yeah. Does that make sense? I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like those guys.

But obviously it wasn't a chops issue, so. No, I think for me, I was more interested in composing before I started playing the guitar. I was probably about five, six years old when I hit a piano for the first time. And I realized the notes go higher and lower and had like a little epiphany. And it was, if you understand how to write or navigate this language, you will have control over vast ideas. And that lit me up. And the biggest inspiration came when my parents brought home Westside story. Right.

There was historical orchestration with Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim. Great melody, great story. Yeah. Gangs in it and tension and love interests and resolve and, you know, all this great stuff. And I was four, you know. So that was what I really knew I was. wanted to do was composed. So I had this high information, and I started studying in a very early age. Seeing your guitar life through the prism of a composer first makes so much more sense than that it may,

almost for me, it gives a missing piece to your story that I never quite understood. Yeah, yeah. Whenever I would look at you as a public figure, and I've been a fan and we'll get to that in a second, but there always be this piece missing, but I didn't see it as a character defect or something. I just didn't understand. Yeah, yeah. Because you're, you're, Of all the famed guitar players in the world that could go and literally sell out a show which you just playing the guitar, nobody's singing. You know what I mean? You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar. You as composer sort of helps me understand that because you didn't fall in these conventional lanes as presented circa 1984. Like, he's this or he's that or he's this or that.

I had enough of an interest, well, I had a huge, once I heard Led Zeppelin when I was 12, and then that Queen, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the whole, and then Fuged, Al Demiola. So, and then once I heard Frank, he was doing what I loved the most because he was mixing all these things. He was taking the compositional interest and mixing it with all sorts of. Were you, were you, this is just a. It's a sort of weird fetish question, but were you also attracted to his kind of anti-gatar guitar stance? Do you know what I mean by that? Does that translate?

Or you want me to laugh? Well, give me a time. Well, he, my father loved Zappa. Oh, okay. He was one of those people would go try to see Frank every time he was in town. And for all I know, he saw you play with Frank. But, but, and I never really understood because Zappa seemed outside his normal orbit. My father loved R&B.

my father loved Jimmy Hendrickson, kind of what you'd expect, you know. Didn't really like hard rock per se. And then Zappa sort of sits on the side of this whole thing, you know, as a sort of a... Yeah. Like, he's a star, but he doesn't act like a star in the conventional way. He was dismissive

of star systems. Yes. I'm saying... I get to what you mean. And even calling an album, shut up and play your guitar. It's very... Frank Zappa-like. Like, I'm going to play endless, copious amounts of guitar, but I'm also going to sort of make fun of the whole thing at the same time. Yeah.

I'd say was that also attractive to you in a particular way? Well, at that age, you know, when I discovered Frank, he had such a powerful personality. He was so fiercely confident. He and also an explosion of freedom. I mean, Frank, it was remarkable.

So I was, I started working for him when I was 18. 18. And then joined the band when I was 20. Let me stop you there one quick. Because this was one of my questions. questions. How do you write Frank Zapp at 18? It's like an address you can send to something to? I was 16 and I'm in my little teenage bedroom practicing practicing. All those my friends come over. They're trying to pull me out. Let's go. Let's go to the sock

hop. Yeah. And one of my friends came in and he had stole a Rolodex because that's how you used to get phone number from a studio in New York City. And it had Franks. It had not just I mean, I'm sitting there practicing. I go, look, I got Mick Jagger. I'm like, oh, cool, you know, I got this, Pat Benetari. I'm like, great. And then he gets to the Z's. And he says, oh, and I have Frank Zappa's home phone number.

And I went, you have what? You know? And I tried calling. At 16. At 16. Okay. Did anyone answer? Yes, his wife answered.

Gail. Gail. And oddly enough, when I, knowing Gail, the way I know her now, the fact that she took the phone call and actually said, because I'm like, you know, you know, I'm just a fan. I got your phone number. With the 16-year-old. And I talk to Frank.

Yeah. And I talked to Frank. Yeah. And she said, well, Frank's on tour. Call back in six months. So I did. Well, Frank's on tour again. Call back in another six months.

And I did that three times until I was 18 and I was at my friend's apartment at Berkeley. I was going to Berkeley. And Frank answered the phone. Oh, my gosh. And he was so nice. I caught him at a good time. And he gave me his address because I told him, I knew the secret. But I knew he was looking for Edgar Verace scores.

That was this big. Yeah. It was big on Verres. Big on Verres. And the Boston Public Library had those scores. So I zerox him. I say, hey, Frank, I'd love to send you these scores. And I said, I have a transcription of the black page.

And I said, and I have a tape in my band. And oddly enough, he said, well, just send it directly to the house. And he gave me his home address. And I mailed it. and that's how it started. Wow. So you walked through Frank Zappa's door, 18 years old. And so the job is you're going to transcribe his world?

Yeah, he wanted me to audition for the band, and then when I told him I was 18, he said, forget it. But I had sent him this transcription. Was he word about a maturity issue? I think so. 18, can you imagine? Like, in that band. I can.

Yeah, I can. You can, yeah. But Frank's touring regime, I'll tell it to you one of these days. It was rough, you know? Okay. So I had transcribed this very complex piece of music. It's like the most infamous Zappa composition of all time, right?

Yes, the black page. And that's kind of how Bozio got the gig, too, or something, right? He learned how to play it. Yeah. Yeah. So Frank asked me to transcribe some of his guitar solos. So I said, sure, and I did it. And he was so impressed that he hired me to transcribe guitar solos.

What would be the point of a solo being transcribed? Would he want people to learn it? Or he saw it as a compositional? Well, he thought it was fascinating. And he thought it would be great to release a book with these transcriptions, which he did. Which is kind of ahead of its time, if you really think about it. Yeah, because the transcriptions are unreadable. I mean, they're so intensely complex, you know.

And so he also, back in those days, in order to copyright a song, you had to send the lead sheet to Washington. I remember that. So they have it, or a cassette. Library of Congress, right? Yes, Library of Congress. I remember. We did that, like 88. Yes.

So back then, Frank had to do it, too. So one of my jobs was to go through his entire catalog and make sure there was at least lead sheets for everything. So I was doing that. And then there was things that he wanted me to transcribe, like the entire Roxy record, head to toe every instrument. So I did that. And that's good for him to have to then say, okay, to a band, you know, here, learn this, you know. And then he had me do, probably one of the most challenging was to create a full score of Gregory Peckery. That's a very obtuse piece of music that's like 45 minutes long that has the kitchen sink in it.

And so that was the kind of transcription work I did. Okay. So when he first saw you kind of play guitar, what did he say? Okay, so the first time he heard in the cassette I sent. But I'm saying, okay, but is there a point where you jam in front of him, or you guys play or you audition? I mean, Frank, he wasn't very generous with compliments. I'd heard that.

Yeah. So, but one of the first things I recorded for him was one of the guitar solos I transcribed. Okay. It was like a six-minute, and I doubled his guitar every note, every scratch, every, everything in one pass. Yeah. Because I didn't realize at the time what punching in was. I thought I had to do it all. That's pretty impressive. One pass.

And I got to the house, and Frank wasn't in a very good mood. because he just got back from the dentist. Okay. And I'm this kid, I'm 20 years old, and I'm doing this impossible thing. And to me, it's like, you're going to get this right. Yeah. You're going to do this.

So I'm playing through it, and out of my peripheral, I see Frank, he was throwing his head back, which I come to find out later that's when Frank's really interested in he's laughing. When something's so wild to him, He just goes, you know? Yeah.

So I thought he was laughing because I was blowing it or something. Oh, I see. And when it was done, I thought, okay, well, I'm out of here. You know, and Frank picks up the phone and says, he calls Gail, and he goes, Gail, come down here, you have to see this. So that was... Have you repeat it? Oh, yeah, I did it a couple of times.

I doubled it, actually, on the record. I think it's doubled. That's correct. Yeah. And so, but there was one other time. It was very interesting. You know, Frank expected you to play the right notes. Okay.

And he gave me some parts that were pretty challenging on guitar, and there was this one song called Montana. And he had never really had anybody play these obtuse melodies. You know, all this crazy. It's not written for guitar. Would he actually play them themselves or he would write them? No. Frank was more of a visceral soloist. Yeah.

He would give all these. This is strictly a, he's composed this thing and now it's like here. Yeah. Yeah, that was the majority of the stuff, the crazy stuff. I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense to me. Yeah, and Billy, he would write it on piano. So it didn't make any sense on guitar, you know? So I was doing Montana, and it was the first show.

And Frank didn't know how I was going to be able to deliver all this very complex music on stage. you can get it right. But, you know, in the back of my mind, I was so bulletproof, confident, cocky, you know, it's like scared to death around Frank, but what do you want me to do? Bring it on. I got it. And we're doing this show. And if you made mistakes, he called you out on stage. He'd stop. He'd stop the show and call you out. Okay. What would he say? Are you say something on the microphone? Oh, it's too fast for you, huh? Or he'd say. say, you know, something, you know. Not all the time.

I get it. You know, but if it was a train wreck or something embarrassing, you know. And so I'm already, you know, we do this. I'm like, the parts coming up and I'm like, ah, yeah. And I nailed it. And Frank stops the band. And I'm like, uh-oh. Uh-oh.

And he looks at me and takes the mic. and he said, not bad sport. And then we continued. So that, you asked for the compliment, that's probably the closest I get. When he saw your acumen and saw

that you, maybe I'm guessing something, but did he see your future? I mean, did he does it make sense? He's like, okay, he sees this potential in you. Did he point you in a particular direction and say, where I see you going or? No, and I asked him once.

I said, is there any advice you would like to give me? And Frank was very practical. And he said, keep your publishing. And that was the best advice he ever did. It is great advice. It is great advice. It came from Frank. So to this day, I own every song, you know.

But as far as that, no, because Frank was a free thinker and he would never make suggestions like that. There was only one time he ever commented on. on my future and I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could. We were just in the studio, just him and I, just playing, playing, playing, you know. We were playing sleep dirt.

Okay. It's just two guitars and it's arpeggio. And I was just brand new, you know. And Frank would look for special things in a musician, you know, something that they could do that's kind of quirky, kind of interesting. Seems like that's kind of how he put his bands together. Yes.

He would find something, the great thing about Frank was he had this intuitive ability to recognize your potential, even better than you did. And then he would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette. Sure. That's why all of his records sound so different and everything. And for me, for some reason, I was into the weird kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. So that I was a good color in the palette. But the transcribing stuff, it really is on Mars what I was doing. And I think he recognized that.

And we were jamming. And I remember just stopping because I was stunned. Because he started playing rhythm, and I was starting to solo. And just some months before that, I was in my bedroom in Long Island, you know, listening to his records and everything. So I had a moment of like just, what's, going on. He was like almost existential crisis or something. I'm like, that's, Frank, play rhythm. So I kind of like tripped. And he looks up, he goes, you okay? And I said, Frank,

I don't know what I'm doing here. How did I get here? You know? And he said, well, how many Tommy Mars are there? And I said, gosh, he's been there's only one Tommy Mars. And he said, how many Vinny Kaliudas do you think there are. And I'm like, well, there's only one Vinnie Kala Yuda, you know? And he goes, well, how many Steve I's do you think there are? And I didn't understand that because I didn't see myself as anything special

whatsoever, you know? And I thought about it, and then he said, I think you're a genius in ways that have yet to be discovered. Wow. Yeah. And I just thought he was being nice. You know, I just thought it was a nice thing to say. And I

didn't understand what he said. I thought, well, maybe I'll do something great someday. I'm still trying to find it. You know, I think he saw my potential to do something obscure, you know. Yeah. But everybody is a genius when they find what they love and they throw themselves into it without any excuses. Yeah, but it's still an interesting, I don't know if that's, he has an interesting legacy with a form of mentorship. Yeah. You know what I mean? In the same way, if you read books about, like, Tommy D.

Dorsey or... Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, people came out of the Dorsey band, including Sinatra. You know, there's this weird, maybe because we don't live in an ensemble society anymore. And maybe Frank, does it make sense? It's like... Yeah, it's kind of like our whole way of communicating and sharing music and listening to it and creating is just in flux.

Are you Duke Ellington fan? I've listened to him a lot in college. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of... You know, there's a lot of debate about Ellington's prowess as a composer. And one of the debates that works against Ellington as a composer is that people say what he did, and it's not unlike what a lot of famous band leaders do, including contemporary bands, is they find people with specialized skill sets.

Yeah. And then in adapting those specialized skill sets almost compositionally, people confuse the ability of the player to voice something simple in a distinctive way, with, let's call it success as a compositional. Yeah, I get you. I totally guess. So Cudy Williams is maybe, I'm pretty sure that's one of Ellington's guys.

So I think it invented the wah-wah, wow, you know, the, the, wah-wah. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of what he was known for. And I'm some fan, I'm sure, will tell me I'm wrong. But, no, what I'm saying just for the mental image of it is, is that, you know, he became like a star that people would go to the gig to see Cudy do the thing.

Yeah. So Ellington being a composer and a bandleader, and this is 1927 or 1943, whatever, he figures out, well, there's business here. I got to write Cudy. I got to set Cudy up. Yeah. Because when he plays that solo, the place starts hopping. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing because in many ways it's part of that tradition where these band leaders were dependent, you know, charismatic and like the Dorsey's case, like, you know, kind of savon.

level players, but they needed other people. Yeah. It couldn't be a one-man band. So there's this tensile point between, like, let's call it, the king of the castle, and the ones he's got to bring in to kind of make it all kind of work. Yeah. And then, of course, by the way, I have to rely on you. Yes, I wrote all this crazy stuff, but I still got to rely on you to play it.

Yeah. And oh, by the way, you've got to play it in a way that I like. Yeah. I'm the guy who wrote it. It's a very interesting thing that's kind of lost in our culture. Well, it takes an individual that has a strong enough vision in knowing what they want to even be able to direct those things. How do you, as a composer yourself, how do you look at Frank's composing legacy in hindsight? Well, Frank wasn't a conventional type of composer.

He composed for conventional orchestras and whatnot. But he has his orchestral expression. he has his blues and R&B expression, his high information rock band stuff, and an undiscovered world that is ahead of its time is his Sinclavia work. I mean, it is... Is that any of that stuff you ever heard any of it?

No, is it released? Yeah. I have no idea. If you get a chance to listen to Civilization Phase 3 or... jazz from hell, jazz from hell, won a Grammy. Feeding the monkeys of Mommelze.

Frank Zappa versus the mothers of prevention. It's unique music. So this is like another chapter that sort of... Another whole brain muscle. That's why he was so extraordinary. But one of his frustrations was that he would write music that people couldn't play the way he wanted.

Yeah. So when he discovered the Sinclaviour, it's like you put a button. Yeah, yeah. And it's there. This is a bit of a diversion, but people have asked me if I have, and is it synesthesia?

Is that the right way to put it on? Yeah. You have synesthesia. Not that I know of. It's somewhere in the Internet. It says you have synesthesia. The ability to hear colors and see flavors or stuff like that, yeah. No.

That's funny. Not that I... I love that the internet just sort of makes up stuff about people. I will say that I've never mentioned anything like that. The closest I've come is in meditations. At times I've gone deep enough to enter colors. I know this sounds abstract, but then I would assume that some of the principles of synesthesia kind of...

The reason I asked, because obviously it was wrong information, but people who have synesthesia will pull me aside and say, you must have synesthesia. And I don't think I do. And they're like, but I know you do because when I listen to your music, the color palette in your music tonally works for somebody with this condition, which is a great kind of weird compliment

to get, but I can't see it the way they do. Yeah, I don't either. I know that when I work, I describe music oftentimes in color. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll say this guitar sound is purple. Yeah, I mean, I think... Maybe you're a closet's anesthesia. Yeah.

I would assume that then all producers in the world have it. Sure. Yeah. Need to be more blue here. Yeah, well, there's all that. Okay, I want to talk about something that does connect us together. So, like a lot of nerds in, you know, circa 80s, this flexi disc that comes out. And it was a guitar world or a guitar, it was a guitar player, probably?

Guitar player at the time. Yeah, and the song was flexible. The attitude song, sorry. From the record. Right. I later got the record, but I... You got that record? I did.

But here's the thing about that. And, you know, like myself, you've been interviewed plenty, and, you know, you kind of get your list of these are the people that I've been influenced by. And, you know, you kind of, you name check people because it becomes convenient. It's like, these are my seven guys, but sometimes you leave off the other three that, you know, maybe people wouldn't know or whatever. And I would never have thought of you as an influence, but in doing the research on you, I remember getting this flexi-dice. I would have been about 17 years old.

And I swear to God, I listened to it last night, and I was like, wow, I ripped a lot of stuff off of you. It's a cool connection that we have because I've ripped a lot of stuff from you. Oh, well, God bless you. I didn't know that. Okay, now I'm going to follow my chair. But there's a bigger point here behind. besides my fanboying. But what was so amazing to me about that song at the time,

and again, the attitude song, 84? Yes. So in one three, four minute go, you play like about eight styles of guitar or something, you know what I mean? And there's a lot of joy in it and a lot of kind of sass in it. And I think I took a lot from that.

I think like, kind of like how I was saying, like, you know, when you were listening to Page, there was still some part of you that had had to find Frank Zappa. You know what I mean? Like, you went left. I think you helped me go left in a way. You kind of gave me permission to be less rigid in my thinking about the guitar. Because up to that point, I just wanted to be a shredder like everybody else on the block. You know, so one day it was Randy Rhodes. The next, it was Inveh. I mean, heck, I had Tony McAlpine records. I had, you know, I was, you know, I was, I was listening to all that. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was listening. I was total shredder brain. I didn't know that. But ultimately, I got bored with it. Yeah.

And I almost went through like a weird guilt phase. Uh-huh. Like, I could play like that, but it was, my heart wasn't in it. Yeah. You know, I reached a point of like, yeah, cool, but something, something. Yeah, that's fatiguing. You got to move to. But I have to tell you, and I say this with all humility, I can, I remember getting that.

I remember listening to it. And it was just like a plastic thing they would put in a record. But I was so blown away that you could play with virtuosity, but with a wink. Yeah. It gave me a weird permission to put that into my playing. Ah, great. Thank you. So it's a cool thing.

And I would have never thought of it if we hadn't sort of found this moment. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, Dave Grohl. Sure. They made that crazy movie. Oh, was it the... Studio 666.

Horror movie, yeah. Yeah. Well, they filmed three houses down the street. Okay. Dave lives in my neighborhood. Oh, okay. And he asked me to go and be in the film. Okay.

There's a part where he's supposed to shred. Oh, and you're the shredder? Yeah, so, you know, they filmed me from here. It was really great fun. But I was sitting with him in Taylor, and they were telling me about their flexible influence. It was weird because when I made that record, I was going through personal transition, you know, psychological. I was coming out of this very, very dark place and had discovered metaphysics and new age. Was it just personal stuff?

Personal, just head stuff? Okay. Anything to do with music, though? No. Okay, it's life. My music career was handed to me on a silver platter. I have no problem. It was just been great, great, great.

but other things challenges, you know. And I had gone through this very dark period and flex, and then I had discovered some light, so to speak, and that started to flow into what I was doing. So flexible was a total home experiment of just doing things that me and my friends could laugh at. You know, I'd go, hey, listen to this, listen to this, darn, darn, you know.

And then on a whim, I decided to release it And, you know, it's never thinking anybody would, you know, really have an interest. Yeah. You just reissued it recently, right? Am I crazy? Yeah, we did like a 36th anniversary. But I would never expect anybody would, because it's such a weird, quirky, obtuse record. But it does have some joy.

It's got a lot of joy in it. And David mentioned that he was into it. And he even mentioned the attitude song as being an important. It's a certain permission. Yeah. Right? Because if you're down in here, you know, trying to play Frigian scales, you know, you spend so much time trying to catch up to somebody who's already there. Yeah.

And even if you do, three years, 30 years, okay, all you've done is just match their accomplishment. Yeah. And I think that was part of my frustration, but I wouldn't have known how to voice it at age 17. Yeah. Because I was the kid, when I first started playing the guitar, you know, I was a bit new wave, you know, this is 80s. So the metal kids in school, and I knew them, they all, you're playing the guitar. And then after about six months later, after six months of playing, somebody invited me at a jam session or something.

And I remember them all looking at me like, are you been taking lessons? And I said, no. I said, where did you learn how to play like that? And I said, I just been practicing. They couldn't imagine that in six months I had gone from, I could barely play, you know, stranglehold by Nugent. Yeah, yeah. So I was able to play pretty well. Yeah.

It was shocking to them. Because you found an interest. Well, I was all in. I was four hours a day and not nine, but I was there and I loved it. And my father, being a guitar player, I had a very kind of inner high standard that drove me. But at some point, I'd just sort of reach the thing of like, this really isn't me. Yeah, sure. It's not.

Yeah, I think we all go. through things like that. I know I did multiple times in various genres, but the cool thing is the variety is there for you to pick up for a little while, get something out of, pull into here, maybe you pull into the Kiss garage for a little while, and then you're in the Allen Holesworth

garage, but ultimately your voice is going to come through and the evidence of that is all of your work. Because it's authentic to the bone. I mean, it doesn't matter if you could, you know, The shredding period for you, I think, was very important for something.

Oh, it created a freedom. Yeah. I always say, and you said it before, but you have to have faculty to express what you feel. Yeah. And that's what I always say. I learned how to play whatever I could feel whenever I felt it. Yeah. And I don't really feel, other than soloing, I feel no limitation in my playing.

I literally can think it and out it comes. Isn't that nice? And then as a singer, that's the, you know, you have to have this third wheel thing over here. So now we go down this other road, Steve Vey's rock star. The full embrace, right? So we got Alcatraz, you're following Inveh there. Graham Bonnet, great, great voice. I mean, what a Jimmy Chamberlain of the Pumpkins' favorite singer of all time, Graham Bonnet.

Really? Oh, my God, he loves Graham Bonnet. He delivered. I just talked to somebody other day who plays with Graham and said his voice is still. Is it really, that's good to hear. They said it blows their mind. They get up and sing all, he sings rainbow and stuff. It's like, there it is, there's that guy.

It's like Glenn Hughes. I just did session with him the other day, and I'm like, what? I don't know where those. Adrian Ballou, who I've been with for a while. That's like another planet. It's different when it comes to this. So we don't have to belabor. I did have the Alcatraz Ingvei records, because again, I was in my shedding period.

But, okay, so Invei had a real rep coming. in. Yeah. You know, with the metal guys in the guitar world. And obviously he sent everybody back to, like, try to relearn whatever the hell he was doing. And I remember seeing Inve play with, actually with Talas, Billy Sheehan's band, opening. And Aragon Ballroom, you know, Rising Sun to her. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Scott Soto was the same. Yeah, yeah. I'm a Viking. And even at the end of the show, I was leaving and I was going down the stairs. I'm sure you played the Aragon Ballroom. but this is an old ballroom where it's on the second floor. So I'm going down the stairs. And I hear, I hear like somebody plug in a guitar like,

and I think, uh-oh. And I stood on the stairs and waited, and they started playing Highway Star. Billy on bass and InVe. I think it was InVe's band, but Billy came out to play bass. Oh, Greg. And, you know, with Billy playing doodoo-d-d-l-d-l-dil-d-d-l-d-l-d-l-d-l-d-d-l-d-l-d-.

And, but, you know, I don't want to assume he was drunk, but he seemed drunk, and he, you know, he's laughing, and he's playing in the guitar. Yeah, yeah. So he had that weird street rep. So how were the metal fans with you coming in? Well, because back then they could be a little weird. Oh, I was, I was slammed.

I mean, are you kidding? When I replaced Inveh, he had left the band and they still had three gigs left. Okay. So I had one day to learn the entire set. And I was surprised they hired me because back then I went to a, it was the only time I ever actually auditioned for something. Okay. You show up and, and none of them wanted me except one guy because after I came in, Chris and Pellitari came in. Okay.

And Chris, he was playing sort of like Invei. But the other, one of the guys in the band just convinced them we do not want another Ingvee type. And there was something about what I was. doing that they like. So I joined that band. But the first gig, I remember walking towards the stage and everybody was chanting Ingbe. They did not know that he wasn't in the band. Like about a setup. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, this is going to be great. You know, it was, I didn't care if I was humiliated because it was an interesting experience. Were you trying to play that type of scaling, or were you just kind of doing your own thing? No, I couldn't. Who could? You know,

and I would do my own kind of thing, which to an Inbe fan may not be, you know, it's not what they're expecting. But it was so funny when I walked out, I mean, you know, looks on the faces. I think it was, in a sense, successful because nobody cheered, but nobody left. Nobody left. God.

Yeah. Sounds like those dreams. Have you ever had the dreams where you're on stage and all goes wrong? Have you ever heard that? I still have. There's two reoccurring dreams that I have. One of them is that I'm on stage with Frank

and he's counting off something like, you know, alien orifice or Redunzel. And I'm like, I haven't played it in 40 years. Go. Go. And that's a reoccurring dream. But, yeah, go on, though. And then, David Lee Roth, fresh out of Van Halen. That band.

Yeah, that was fun. Boy, there's that, is there, is there, there, there's no pro-shot concert of that, of that tour. Isn't that a shame? There's that one, there's like a bootleg. Yeah, Montreal or something. You guys are having such fun. The band is fantastic. Yeah.

It was a great time because... Roth is in absolute prime form. Yeah. High on whatever he was high on at the time. MTV. Yeah. It was a great time because, well, we were young. How old were you at that time?

25, 26. Okay. Good time to be in a rock band. Yeah. In a rock. Yeah. And back then, we wore the most outlandish clothes. And the stage was like the size of a football field.

You know, you just run as fast as you can. I remember you guys just, there seemed to be a lot of running. Running, running, running. It was fantastic. It was good for that then. Yeah. And we played our asses off, you know? It's like, okay, it's not just about the funny clothes you're wearing and running around.

Playing was going to play your ass off. So Billy and I, we honed ourselves, you know. Yeah. It was a real special time. And it was great while it lasted. And I was able to kind of live in that world because as a teenager, even though I had all this interesting compositional music, the rock music was just so embedded in me.

And I knew it was like professional wrestling in a sense. Where you go out there and you're acting in a sense. You know, just a little bit it's fun. That's why I kind of was after was like, did you want to be that guy, or you were just having fun being? I was having fun, you know, it was, I knew that it was fleeting. Okay. I knew that it was trendy, you know, and I knew that I was in a position where I could play my butt off, run around, wear great clothes, and then it'll be over. Yeah.

And I'll just go back to doing the weird music that I love. Okay, so, yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of a vacation? It was like a vacation. But then the white snake gig rolled in. But don't jump ahead. Okay.

I'm just sorry. No, because, because, you know, because of your interesting history, it also intersects with other things that people are fascinated by. So here's Roth fresh out of Van Halen. So there's that. Yeah. And he's obviously got something to prove. And he was out to prove it as he would as an alpha. Then, of course, there's this shadow cast by Eddie.

Yeah. You know, if Invei cast one shadow, Eddie cast the shadow. Right. So you went from one fire into a bigger fire. Yeah, I kept stepping in something. Yeah. And that stuff is what it is. I think now people can see, you know, like I said, at the beginning, it's less about who won.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's more about who's in the game and who's contributed. Yeah. I think one harp I have about, and one of the reasons I wanted to do, the show was, I'm interested in reorienting what classifies the success in American culture. The old version, in my opinion, which is kind of that's pre-digital ages, how many did you sell, you know, did you win or did you lose? And if you lost, who beat you? Right. Like, who's the

champ? Just use the wrestling thing. I think we're entering into a new era where it's not, it's not about who's the champ. It's like who's in and who contributes over a sustained arc. Yeah. And even if, At times, maybe the story doesn't get told. There's a lot to learn from the journey of different people because most of the people who reach a level of acclaim, their story is very unique, and it's a lot more rare than the credit would have you believe. Having been in the music industry, as long as you have,

and I have, you know, one of the things they try to do is, well, we can just get another one of you. And go back to Frank saying, you know, there's kind of really only one of you. As an 18-year-old man, that's almost hard to believe. What do you mean? there's one. I mean, there's eight, seven million people on this planet. At some point, you wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, actually, there really is only one. And that's

not a bad thing. No, it's true for everybody. Yeah, exactly. But I'm saying the business has been oriented around the idea of convincing people like you and I that were not that unique. And creating a business model that sort of exploits what we do contribute. And then the minute we don't sort of fit in their business model, they toss us out the door. Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan of social media, but it's reoriented the landscape in a way that's allowed people to understand that people's value carries on a lot farther than what the old models would have you believe. So what's interesting about that period of your life is, you know, you look at this transition from, you know, because basically what people would call Van Hagar went on to be a bigger, and in many ways than Van Halen ever was. And you're in that, you're in that very interesting position. You've worked with one Crazy Alpha and Frank Zappa.

Here's another Crazy Alpha in David Lee Roth, who's not just out to win the world. He's out to prove that he's got the better band. You know what I mean? Yeah. And he's also relying on you to sort of make the case. Yeah, yeah. I'm not so much, if you want to talk about your version of it from what it put on you,

but I'm interested in how you perceived it from afar because you don't strike me as somebody who was out to like, I'm going to prove Eddie Van Halen wrong. You know, it never felt that way. How do you do that? Well, that's a, that's a different question. but my point is, is a person with less confidence or a person who think they could make their bones on Eddie's loss, they would have treated that gig a lot differently.

You brought a lot of joy and fun to it and then ultimately led to you having some relationship with Eddie, like he didn't see you as a hostile combatant. Yeah, because I wasn't. But that's my point. And I think that's more of a tribute to you because most people step in that role would think, like, okay, now I got a win.

something. Yeah. Well, you know, in the background someplace, there was the extraordinary thought that I need to somehow keep up with Edward, which is an illusion because you can't. But what I could keep up with was my own expansion. I loved Edward. When he hit the scene, you know what happened. We all just everybody's input, Jack, closed up. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

And then what's so interesting is when... I just got that joke. When the word was out that David Lee Roth was putting a band together and he was looking for a guitarist, I mean, it was probably the most coveted rock guitar position being... Well, it's like being knight hit or something. Yeah. And I was in my little apartment in Fairfax Street in Hollywood.

And as soon as I heard that news, I turned to my roommate, and I said, that's my gig. But it didn't come from a place of, that's my gig. It was just this intuitive, no matter, this like a little voice that said, too late, no matter what you do, even if you don't want it, it's your gig. It's just one of those things. And the next day, the phone rings, and it's Dave. Yeah. You know. Full, full diamond Dave, I'm sure.

Full dime. Yeah, we're doing a movie. We're doing this. I want you to come on down. You know, Billy turned him on. Yeah. Turned me on to him. So, uh, I, I just knew that I could make it work because I had a rock and roll fire that

I loved in me. And I knew that I wasn't, like, I wasn't going to try to sound like Edward or do anything like him, uh, because people are very hip to that kind of thing. See, what strikes me now looking back is it's, what, 30? years, right? Yeah, almost 40 years. Okay, right. I think at the time, people quantified it, try to follow my lead on this, because I'm not saying anything negative, is they quantified it as a failure. Sure. Because Dave didn't do what he set out to do, which was beat Van Halen. Oh, yeah, well, on one, on that level, if you're comparing that kind of stuff, yeah. But what's interesting is,

because of what you're saying, that's why people revere it now. Because it isn't sub-Van, Halen. It's the band that he put together to do that. And now it's seen as complimentary to the period, meaning like it's another high point. Like look at that tour, look at that band, look at the music. And again, Roth being in his prime was an impressive sight. Yeah, absolutely. We didn't have the songs. Van Halen had the songs for that kind of success. We had, a really great... Mickey Rose is pretty good. Yeah, they're good songs.

Yeah, but I know what you mean. You know what I'm saying. Eddie's melodic bass is... He's got his whole ear for writing and Sammy... That's the secret. That's the secret. You can't replace that, you know. And we had great music. I love the music. But when I say, we didn't have the songs, I'm talking about those specific things that cross over at radio. That's the...

That's the, we have a saying in the pumpkins, live by the riff, die by the riff. That's good. I like that. I like that. I like that. So riff-based music is very exciting, but it doesn't always translate to let it be, let it be, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because it's a different monster chasing a different thing.

Yeah. And that's why Prime Van Halen is always such a cipher to so many people. Because how do you, how do you be riff exciting and melodically? reach everybody. Yeah. Think of a song like Dance the Night Away. Yeah. Or Unchained, you know.

Yeah. It's like such a cool, like one of the all-time ultimate cool guitar riffs, the drop-tuning, the whole thing. But it's a hit song. It's a hit song. And a lot of that stuff, you know, jump. Yeah. And, but the stuff with Sammy even, you know. Yeah.

Even more melodic. Even more melodic. But what we had with Dave Roth, we were like the roving youth gang. You know, Billy and I and Greg Yeah, he's great. It was really a powerful, crazy different kind of a unit of intensity. Almost like prog glam or something.

Yeah, prog glam, good monica. Right? It says, like, prog glam. It's almost hard to describe unless you really get into it, yeah. Yeah, and it was a good time for it, and we were right on time, and we did great tours and made a couple of really great records.

So, just in, indulge me one more question. So from your perspective, oh, first of all, were you conscious of Ross' ambition in that moment? Mm-hmm. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. So when it stopped working, because at some point it becomes obvious, it's not quite working. You know what I mean? Maybe not to the way in a megalomaniac way. Yeah. I mean, he was out to win it all. Movies, MTV. So when I say Icarus and the sun, I mean, he failed going for the top. top top and I don't think there's anything wrong with trying. Yeah. I'm saying you have a front row seat of this guy who's like in it to win it. He's all in.

Yeah. He's jacked. He's doing karate. You know, the whole thing. At some point, people around, whether it's atmospherically or the fans, they just don't, aren't buying it. And you were there in that moment. It's a very interesting moment because to many fans of Dave and I'm one, it's kind of

where it starts to go leftward because it's like something out of Shakespeare. It starts to topple under its own weight. The ambition was too big. You said, hey, we didn't have the songs. Well, that's really what it was for anybody. We had good songs, and they sold us a lot of records, and the mystique of the band sold us a lot of records. But ultimately, the reason we're sitting here today

is because you had the songs. You just did. The evidence is clear. There's something in you that the little shredder moment here was helpful at, this was helpful at, but you just will never be able to deny or stop the inner melody. It's going to come out. And my expression of melody, it's not conventionally.

Sure. It's not that kind of thing. You give me an orchestra and, you know, I'm all melody. And even my music is very known for a shredder, but there's melody. No, I mean, to me, your most beautiful playing is this sort of liquid. beautiful. Yeah, you know, it's... Very expressive.

Thank you. And, but to have those songs that catapult a band and raise them up, Edward just had that sauce. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You couldn't, just like, we can go back and listen to every Van Halen song. And Dave and Edward were a perfect kind of a... Yeah, yeah.

Communication there. So I think, to answer your question, that as Dave, Dave started to sunset from selling millions of records. We did pretty good when I was with him for the two records. Like I say, I believe if we had the songs that were as accessible and inspired in a top 40 way. Especially in the time of hair metal. Yeah, yeah. Then it might have been a bit of a different story.

I see. But he needs that other part. that's going to help him do that. And I'm just not that guy. Yeah. You know, I'm a different, I contributed certain things. But not in that realm. And then when I had left the band after those two records.

Okay. Not looking for gossip, but like what's the point of decision? Like, this has gone as far as it can go or I need to go do something else or I've had my fun. Well, I love making the money. I loved the awards. I loved all this. It was very nice. It's nice, yeah. It's nice, but it's not it. Yeah. It's hard thing to say, but many that are in the position know that you can be successful and still be miserable. Been there. Yeah. So what is it that really satisfies you? And sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to ask yourself that question until you've exhausted those things that you thought. we're going to bring that to you.

But you go one more around with White Snake and Coverdale. I know, I did, didn't I? You're like, just to be sure. Just to be sure. But it was after I recorded Passion and Warfare. See, that was the thing. For me, I loved that stuff I was doing with Dave. I loved the rock energy and touring like that.

But there was an annoying voice in the back of my head saying, you have to do this. So I had to leave. And that's really the gossip. Was your wife part of that? It's like somebody you'd sit around the kitchen table and go, I know we've got to go over there. Like who in your life was the support to go, yes, keep going?

Because my inner being. Okay, good. Because my point is, I'm a person who blabs in my world all the time. You know what I mean? So the minute I would start talking about giving up the arena and the money, invariably somebody's going to go, are you sure you want to do that? You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. It takes a courageous person in your world to go, no, happiness is the preeminent energy that we're after here, not more gold records or. Yeah, I mean, I loved it, but I knew it was fleeting. And it was too, I didn't want to compete with trying to have to release that whole career of pop music and are these numbers as good here? And, you know, well, you were short here. and you almost were going, you know, radio won't take it because of this, but if you change this,

and I've been through all of that, it has its place, but at some point, there's something in you that just says, you have to do this, you just, a matter of fact, not that you have to do it, here you go, you're doing it.

And I just found myself writing and recording, Passion and Warfare. And that record... That's the thing that really... Yeah, that was, that to me was success, because it felt fulfilling and satisfying. Did you see, it's not fair to call it a cottage industry,

but did you see this world of guitar coming? Well, I knew that anybody, any artist at all, that has creative impulses that are authentic, they're going to do something that's worthwhile and relevant. It's like, I hear these kids say from around the world all the time, I can't make it as an instrumental guitar player in Poland because of this, this, and this. And you were able to release instrumental guitar records because Joe Satriani had a record out that or Jeff Beck. And my response to that is always they didn't wait for anybody.

You know, these people that in them, they're just going to do it and then let, What I mean by cottage industry is, and again, mid-80s, I'm with you. I'm like, I'm reading the guitar magazine. I know what you're doing. I see what you're doing. You know what I mean? And including all the other people of that time. Yeah.

I mean, I'm getting the magazine every month and this amp and this guitar and then Floyd Rose and whatever. Yeah. Right? It was fun. But I'm saying if you'd ask me at Ground Zero, 1990, early 90s, when Grunge starts to kick in. Yeah. And what was it, Gary Huy? Harry Hohie.

Remember he had that big instrument. There was one instrument song he had was MTV. But I'm saying outside of that, if you'd said, would you place a bet on a bunch of guitar players being able to go out and tour and only play the guitar? I see. And sell records and be able to teach instructional classes online or like Oolie John Roth will do, he'll come to town and he'll have. like a bit of a symposium and create a business model strictly around guitar playing. I would have said there's no way in heck, like, there aren't enough guitar players in the world who want to sit there, and it's actually happened.

Like, now there's 10,000 guitar pedals where there used to be 200. There's so many more guitar manufacturers. Yeah. Like it's exploded in a way that, I'm saying, did you see that coming? Because I didn't. Not the way it did. Sure. Because the industry didn't cater to that, but I did know that if something was worth its salt, it could creep into the mainstream.

Right. And there were instrumental songs, not mine. Sure. But Satriani, Eric Johnson, that did creep in. And that's nice. But to me, it's not. It's nothing I want to chase. It compromises your freedom.

But the point is, and again, the cottage industry, and again, it's not a fair term. It's maybe the foundational basis that I'm not laying is it's about the integrity of the pursuit. Like, let's call it guitar for guitar sake. I never would have thought that would be a business there. Yeah, right. In essence, you would be forced to be the guy in White Snake, and that would be your gig, because there would be no better gig for you to have. You actually made a gig that was comparable, and you would argue, I think, that was better for you.

Yeah. Because it allowed you to have this free range of expression. Yeah. And that's what's so beautiful about it, because sort of through talent and guile, you built something that I, and I was there. I didn't see it. You know what I mean? I thought it was too nerd land or something, you know. Yeah.

I was very fortunate because Passion and Warfare was kind of like a pet project, was a guilty pleasure. and when I was making it, I thought it was the end of my career. Was that a good buy? Well, I thought nobody's going to listen to this. It's not Dave Roth. And I wasn't in White Snake at the time. So then when the White Snake offer came,

I was put back into that pop rock. One more time. Yeah, one more time. And I knew, again, I knew it was short-lived and fleeting, but could be a lot of fun. fun and all of those things like platinum records and a lot of money and all that. Good time for Whitesnake too. Yes, that stuff happens and I never take that for granted.

But it can't buy the satisfaction I feel when I listen to Passion and Warfare. It just can't. That's really beautiful. Yeah. You know what that's like. I do. I do, but it's, again. But your music has, you know.

Well, thank you. But I would say this to people who aren't musicians. Pop music, by and large, has a built-in form of compromise. Yeah. Back to Eddie for a second. What's so beguiling about Eddie was he really didn't compromise, and it worked. Interesting. But that's like one in a billion, literally, probably even one in four billion.

Yeah. To play that weird and have those weird arrangements. Like, you know, the bridge in unchained. But da-boop-d-d-da-b-da-b-da-b-du. Who writes that in a conventional bridge that's going to go on the radio? Nobody. Yeah. So he got away with a form of murder.

Yeah. Because for the rest of us, mortals, it's like if you play that weird, you're not going on the radio. Yeah. So you knew when you jumped in that pool, okay, this is not a commercial venture. Yeah. One of the things I noticed also about the Van Halen camp was there was a chemistry. So Alex Van Halen is... Unbelievable.

Unbelievable. People don't know how much control he had. He also has an inspired ear for cutting songs to get, like, you know... Good genetics, right? Yeah, yeah. But Eddie has a great ear for the riffs. But Alex and Dave played a very big part on shaping that. Well, that's the frustration about being in a great band,

is you ultimately have to admit that your other bandmates had something to do with the success. Right, it's true. It's so frustrating. It's true. Okay, we're almost done. Thank you so much for indulging me. I'm here.

Okay, beekeeping. Yeah. Take me into beekeeping. Oh, it's great. So we have bees, but our bees have died and then we get more bees. Yeah. The people understand, it's like it's hard to keep bees, right? No, it's actually pretty easy.

Okay, tell me the secret, because we've lost a lot of bees. Did you keep them? Did you have hives? We live on a property. where we have a lot of woodland. And my wife's made an arrangement where a gentleman who does bees is happy to use our property. Oh, okay, so I know what happened.

So back when I started with bees about 25 years ago, 30 years ago, it was a simple, we bought this house in Encino, two acres. Place was vacant for 10 years. Okay. So I'm trying to research, how am I going to, you've got to plant stuff. My wife wanted a garden.

I wanted some fruit trees. And I realized, I discovered that honeybees are incredible pollinators. And I thought, well, that would be an eclectic hobby. That would be me, you know. So are there photos of you and the beekeeping? Oh, yeah, no. For years, I still have bees. I got them right now.

It was a great hobby. Do you name your honey? Is it the Vi-Honey? Fire Garden Honey. See? I named it after one of my records. But it's a simple hobby, but it can be complex if you get into it. And I know way too much about bees.

Give me the 60 seconds zen of beekeeping. You're with the bees. They have a fascinating social infrastructure. They're calming. You're with nature. They make honey. They really are extraordinary. And they are great.

They're vital for the environment. Very much so. Well, you know, there's this theory that cell phones and is what's called. Okay, I didn't know. I think. because what happened when your guy was, when you were losing your hives and whatever, it was called colony collapse disorder. Okay. And basically, in a nutshell, there was a lot of theories of what that might be, cell towers, pesticides, this kind of thing.

None of it made sense to me because the bees and many other animals get their directional facility from the poles, the gravitational pool, the sun. Okay. You know, the position of the sun. and the bees weren't dying. They just, well, they were dying, but they weren't returning to the hive. Right. They'd go out and they wouldn't come home.

Okay. And this happened 100 years ago, and it happened all around. Okay, so do they know what causes this collapse? Well, I thought it has to be something to do with the sun, the poles, and then finally a researcher out of UCLA had a theory that it was, Because at that time, there was huge sun storms. Solar storms.

Solar storms. Solar storms. Solar flares, yeah, sorry. And there was other, at that time, also, animals, you know, dolphins. Yeah, and beaching, whales, beaching. Yeah, they were all going crazy. Okay. So that's what I might assume it was because it happened all around the world at the same time.

And then it's dissipated. Now the bees are okay. Did you know honey is the only food stuff in the world that does not spoil? Yep. Okay. It can last 2,000 years. Unless, oddly enough, two things will destroy it. Water?

Really? Yeah, you can't get water in there. You can get botulism. And you don't want to take your spoon and dip it in the honey and put in your mouth and put it back. Because the enzymes dissolve the honey. I know too much about honey. That's how I was going to say. This is a whole separate.

Okay. A couple rapid fire questions. The seven string guitar. You're to blame for new metal. Sorry. Yes or no. Well, the guys that wrote it and played it are more to blame. Isn't it cool, though?

Isn't it cool that they took something that you made for one use and took it a completely different direction and they've done such cool stuff? It was glorious to watch. And you know what, Bill? I knew they were going to do it. because I was doing it with White Snake because I had the sevens.

But my heavy sensibilities are different than the young guys that came along. And I remember we released it and it did okay and then it started to fail, you know, started to slow down. And Ibanez was going to discontinue it and I told them don't. Give it a little more time

because I knew that there was going to be fans, young kids that were starting to play that would see the potential in it. And in my mind's ear, I was hearing these, I was hearing what was going to be happening in a sense. And I remember I was driving down the street one day, years later, and I hear this music on the radio.

I'm like, what do you? And I pull my car over, I'm like, that's a seven string. Yeah. And it's not me. Was it corn? It was corn. Yeah.

Playing an A. Yeah. Wasn't enough to stay in the B. You got to drop that. You got to lower the jock strength. you know and they were fantastic so good yeah because i worked with jonathan the lead singer corn on something a single of theirs that came out and he was like at some point we were trying to find a melody because you know it's riff music right and and he was like i've done 14 songs 14 albums

in the key of a right that's a guitar player joke for you oh yeah um okay okay Another simple finish it up question. You've stood on two different peaks, which is very interesting. The big arena rock peak and your own, I don't know what you want to call it. But you've also been there with Frank too, right? It's like Prague peak, my own music peak, you know, self-identity. I think you've said that your peak is a lot more fun. He had to choose, I guess, is the unfair question.

Well, they both really, all of the peaks that I had the great honor of peaking have all had something in them that was very rewarding, very fulfilling. I mean, I got to be a rock star in the 80s. I mean, that... Good time. It was so great. Think out you were married. Yes. And I was very, oddly enough, you know, I was very straight.

But I also really enjoy the ability to go out and play for other guitar players. You know, the guitar is a universal instrument, and the fans of the guitar are rabid. You know, they are so passionate about the guitar, and they're all over the world. And I'm fortunate enough to where I've got a foot in on that little pocket. So wherever I go around the world, they come. Yeah. You know? I think in a weird way, it's brought the guitar back somehow.

Well, I think it just... It always had to kind of go back to a different route and rebuild back up. Yeah. Because at some point, it's not an instrument of limitation. Yeah. You know that. But it can be, because at some point you're going to hit some wall with it, the way it's tuned, the way the frets or work, whatever. There's just a point where you kind of look at it.

to go, I don't know what else to play. I've played. You know what I mean? Well, then you do things like build the hydra or something. Right. Can you explain that what it is? I know what that is. Yeah, the hydra is a guitar that I had built by, that Ibanez built, that it's wild looking.

Is this a. Yeah. Yeah, it's got three necks. It's got a bass neck that has two fretless strings, seven string tuned down, and a 12 string with half of its fretless, and it's got like 13 harp strings. Oh, my goodness. It's got synthesizers, piso, Siss I haven't seen you play this thing live, but I have to come see.

Have you seen the video? I've not seen the video. You'll get a kick out of it. Okay, I will find it. Okay, last question. All right. Ready? Can you be too good at guitar?

Can you be too? Well, that's like saying, can you be too thin or too rich if you're a rock star? Can you be too good? Well, that's a, it's up to the player. It's up to what they do with it. This is my show. It's yes or no. Can you be too good at guitar?

In my opinion, no. Okay, perfect. Yeah, thank you. Bless you, thank you.