The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Tommy Lee |The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Billy Corgan welcomes Mötley Crüe co-founder Tommy Lee for a candid conversation about rock, reinvention, and the future of music. Tommy shares why he used AI to reimagine the artwork for Tommyland Rides Again, why Dolby Atmos has completely changed the way he thinks about making records, and why he believes streaming has crushed the "musical middle class." He also tells the incredible story of how Nikki Sixx bought back Mötley Crüe's catalog, reflects on the band's legacy, and explains why he'll never censor himself on social media—even when it comes to politics. Billy also looks back on recording with Tommy in 2013, breaks down the unmistakable groove that helped define Mötley Crüe, and the two swap stories about David Bowie, Prince, Mick Mars, John 5, the Sunset Strip, and why they believe rock music is on the verge of a major comeback.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Was that really how it was? And these kids, these kids don't know. It's like neon lights and sleazy at the same time. Like I'm in every strip bar ever at the same, I don't know. Something about the way you play that groove, it's like that's the money. People at the end of the day, I believe, want a new experience. The crew as an institution is completely its own animal. You guys have played by your own rules.

When everybody was going right, we're going left. You're not a person who thinks a lot about consequences. No, no. Yeah, because I don't care. My good brother, Tommy Lee, is so good to see you. Lots of love. Dude, it's so good to see you. So.

So good. Your life is one beautiful explosion going in about 360-degree direction. So I thought we'd be more fun, and I know you like to have some fun. So I thought I'd be more fun if we just kind of just touch on some things. Cool. You're certainly worthy of a full career review, although it's not over yet, but it seems not to be your style. So I'm going to bend the rules a little bit and we'll just kind of like, we'll free associate a little bit. Beautiful.

All right. So let's start here. And even though I know you decently well, I actually don't know where you're going to fall on this question. So the question is essentially about AI. So let's start here. Do you fall on the positive side of AI or the negative side? I'm right in the middle. I don't, you know what I mean?

I think, um. Because you love technology. I totally do. You like your toys. I'm such a geek. So there's got to be a part of you that likes the toy in the thing. Yeah. I mean, it's, um, oh, that's a big one because if, if people are using it as a tool,

I've spoke to, you know, artists who just, for instance, on my album cover, this kind of hit me because I was afraid. I was like, I want to keep the original artwork. He drew it, right? But I said, I've remixed the record in Dolby Atmos and I want a 3D and also sort of reimagine the artwork. Yeah. And would you just for context this is for your 2005 Tommy land The ride record Rides again Rides again yeah And you've made it

Sorry just because I want people understand it because I want them to listen They've made a new version of like a redone Indole Bermost and Yes So that's the context yeah And so You know It was on a sort of you know with an artist

It's kind of a touchy situation of me wondering, is he going to be opposed to using AI to kind of 3D this? Because it's a flat drawing. It's a cool drawing with this roller coaster going in my ear and out the other end. It's kind of like a ride through my creative dark street. And so in asking him, he goes, and his answer was so quick, he goes, absolutely 100% I am down with it because for me as the original artist of the piece

I I love it because I use it as a creative tool it's it's not replacing me it's taking something that I've done and really like 3D in it out and make so if you were if you were 15 years old now would you want to use AI to make music you think to make music to make music Right? Yeah, that's Because you like the hit. Yeah, that's weird. That I don't think I'll ever.

Have you done the thing yet where you put a song in and have AI kick out a different version? Have you done any of that yet? No. Have you seen people do that? Have you seen any demonstration of that? No. You can literally load in like an acoustic demo.

You can literally just be a demo of you acoustic guitar and vocal and it spits out like a bro-country version of your song, like in like 60 seconds. With guitar parts, background singing, it's wild. That's insane. It's now, so this is 2026, we're doing this interview. So five years from now, it'll be insane what people will be able to do. Yeah, yeah.

That's a loaded one, man, because there's so many pluses and so many weird minuses that could, I don't know, dude. it's but it's but it it yeah i do like the forward movement with the technology and yeah that's why i kind of guessed you would be kind of in the the gray space on it because because i know you love you you're you're somebody who embraces technology you're certainly not afraid of it yeah so you've made your living in the music business we both have um and you've certainly been the beneficiary of it but you've also dealt with the downside of the music business.

Where do you land on the music business at this point, having seen everything that's happened? Because you grew up in the business where it was about records, radio stations, and then eventually MTV, and now it's onto something totally different. Completely different, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I don't spend a whole lot of time kind of analyzing it. I think most of the time, I'm... I'm extremely grateful to have had this long of a career because not many have.

Yeah. You know, a lot of... Yeah, you're in the point-0.001% tile. Right. So I'm usually, you know, I realize where everything's gone. And there's just like the part about the part about the music. business is just too fucking much. I'm in the bit, we're in this business.

We make and we do music. And when Spotify or whoever is releasing how many songs a day? 200,000, I think, is the... Bro! And pretty soon it's going to be a lot of AI. And that's just, to me, I'm a musician, I'm also a fan,

and if I can't keep up, how is everybody keeping up and why are we constantly dumping new content out? That just baffles me. How is anybody listening to all this? If impossible. Well, the answer is they're not. Yeah.

And the real, the real, it's hard to use the word victim. the right word. The real, the people most hurt by the current system in 2026 are what I call the musical middle class. People who back in the day would have been able to make a decent living by a house. Now they can't tour. They're not getting enough streaming revenue. Spotify came out with that rule that long ago. If you get under a thousand plays, they don't pay you. Do you know about that? No, but. So even if you're somebody who gets 500 plays, you don't even get the the money for the 500 plays, they just don't pay you because they don't consider it important

enough. They'll host you on the platform. You could put your music up. Yeah. So that's a, that's a difficult one. God, it's just kind of crazy, isn't it? Talking to reminds me of a story Nikki, your bandmate told me once where it was kind of in those years where the crew was not up, but on the downside of things. And you guys had a very contentious relationship with was a Sylvia Rohn. Oh, yeah. And Nikki basically approached your former label Lectra and somehow was able to buy your catalog for not a lot of money. I know. And that's an incredible story because imagine you have the Motley Crew catalog. Electra owns the catalog. You guys probably had a crappy record deal as most bands did back then. Right, right. And somehow Nikki arranges because

she hates you guys so much, buys all your stuff back. Yeah. Just now probably worth a hundred times or more what you guys paid for it. Yeah. She was so excited to get rid of you. We had two records left with them. So this was her perfect way out and perfect way out for us, too. We were like, of course, we'll take our stuff. See, this is where your bad behavior was rewarded.

How you felt, you know, we've had about 20 years of pop overload. how do you how do you look at pop the pop landscape at the moment a pop landscape well are you are you a fan are you I'm a fan of really good music yeah and I'm a fan you're not a hater per se no like you're not because I having spent time with you you're not a person who talks behind the scenes on other artists you're just not that guy no you're more of a I love this I love this I love this

yeah so who in the pop world are you attracted to in the pop world guys like I mean I love Bruno Mars is amazing super funky super cool

is that considered pop yeah it is considered pop yeah right back in the day they would have called it R&B but I don't think they distinguished that anymore yeah

who else geez um Billy Eilish I love Who else in that world? It's fine. But on the,

have you noticed that somehow in this, you know, hegemony is the word, it's been this pop dominance for about 15, 20 years, no rock on the charts for 20 years. Right, right. That's kind of a weird one, because that was never the case

in any other generation. That's really just been a recent phenomenon. I think it's about to end. Tons of educations is about to end, then Rock is about to have a massive kind of comeback, which I'm sure you feel or see. Are you seeing a lot of young fans when you're playing now? So many. Crazy, right?

Yeah. You know, everybody's like that's such a beautiful thing and such a great feeling that I get personally because I'm like, whoa, this is transcended. This is our fan has his kid on his shoulder. And now you're getting kids. And he's going, shout. shout and I'm like, wait, dude, you're, you're 14. Like, this is the best ever. Like, so to see it go to another generation and look out and see a ton of young kids.

And with the original fans, it's just, man, it's such a confirmation of like, okay, this is going to be, this is going to be around for a while. Do you have an opinion why so many young people are interested again in guitar bands? Is it as simple as just the sound of rebellion? I guess, man. What I do notice is things are getting a lot heavier, like, in the guitar world. Like, a lot of the newer stuff is, like, you know, extremely detuned and super, super lush and heavy. Everybody's kind of taken that. guitar thing.

Again, technology, that's part of it, right? The ability to record guitar in this new way. Yeah, and there's plug-ins now that simulate the, what is it, the seven-string detuned. Crazy, right? And you're just like, oh, my God, this sounds insane. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You're the guitar guy.

You know, we know where that goes. Invariably, it's a bunch of people staring at a Marshall stack going, how many more mics can we put on this? I know you've lived it. Yeah. Okay, let me hit you with the date here. A little controversy. January 28, 2014, in quotations, cessation of touring.

Oh, yeah. That's where you gentlemen, signed in blood. We will never tour again or never forget the endless. So let's have fun with it, because obviously you've continued touring. Did you, did you, did you, did you, when you sign the contracts in blood, even if it was your blood, it doesn't matter. But did you believe that really was the end? Yes, we did. And we, we, we did, but we wanted everybody else to, to, to believe that, too.

and realize that, you know, the last thing we wanted was people to go like, oh, it's, you know, kiss in their final, final, final, final, right? Like, we were really, we wanted that to be crystal clear that this was, we were, we were done. Yeah. We're done. And we were for a while. But what's so funny when you guys came back? I thought, well, this is the most Motley crew thing ever.

And Motley. It's definitely a Motley move. It's like, psych. Well, we sign in blood. We can't come back. It's like, yeah, but we're Motley crew. Of course we can come back. We lied.

No. 158 shows between 2014 and 2015. And I saw two of those shows. Dude, that tour was like two. It was a big tour. Yeah, it was, it seemed like it was forever. It was one of those when you come home and you're like, oh. But I have to ask, because I think I know the answer,

but whose idea was the signing in blood? Oh, Nicky's. Of course you know the answer. It's like ring a bell. Yeah. If there ever was a Nikki Six idea. Yeah, because that makes it official. If it's in blood, it's official.

So this is the selfish part of our conversation. So in 2013, which just before you went out on that endless tour, you and I worked together on my album. Yes. To an analogy. Thank you for that. Yeah, which was what an experience. You may not know, but it was a really downtime in my personal and musical life. So working with you was really like it lifted my spirit.

So I want to thank you to the bottom of my heart for being part of that. And I want to thank you because you, and I tell people this story all the time. Please tell me. It was like, it was such an experience recording with you because you have certain ways that you do things and I have certain ways I do things. And your, you know, your passion for that one take is, and no use of Pro Tools editing.

and like, I just, I want that vibe. It's hard to understand because on the surface of it, emotion and drumming shouldn't really translate. But if you can get that one take, it does. It does. It does. And you made me realize that. Yeah. And you're an incredible drummer and you're an incredible pocket drummer.

And the best way I can explain it, having work with you intimately on music, is when you find the Tommy Lee groove, whatever that is, it is like, I feel like I'm standing on the sunset strip 84. It's both, it's like neon lights and sleazy at the same time. Like,

I'm in every strip bar ever at the same. I don't know. Something about the way you play that groove, it's like, that's the money. That's the thing that sold a zillion records. That's the groove. And only you play that way. That's cool.

So understand the pressure is inadequacy, it's greatness. That's cool, man. Yeah. That's cool. And like I was saying, I tell people this all the time. Like, it was incredibly challenging for me because we're playing. Yeah, a lot of weird timing in 7-9 and then, you know, the time signature changes and trying to. Too much Prague, I know.

I'm sorry for that. Which is awesome because it was challenging for me, you know. I needed that. Yeah. my favorite story from us working together at your old house was I think I left the room and you turned to the engineer and said why does he need so many takes the image of you holding your sticks up like bro bro you need so many takes but thank you again for that I will say because I think this would be of interest to your fans the physics of the drums by and large are you're not

supposed to drive the stick into the drum because the drum can't vibrate. Right. So proper drumming is you hit it, you come off it and then drum goes, and it doesn't the sting. Like you drive that stick through the head. You hit harder than any drummer I've ever seen up close. But somehow it sounds amazing. It's physically it shouldn't work. Yeah, it shouldn't because the microphone can only handle so much and there is so much. All of it. But somehow with you, works. Is that something that you, that just came naturally to you, wasn't something you thought of, or did you like the way the drums sounded when you hit him like that? Yeah, you know what? It's a, it's an ear thing for me. I'm like, oh, this sounds nice. This doesn't sound nice because this is

overdriving certain things. So, yeah, for me, it's like a sound thing like, oh, this sounds really cool. This doesn't sound cool. It's kind of my ears is my reference for how it sounds and feels. Yeah, it's almost like, I don't know, it's not the best analogy, but it's almost like how certain pitchers that are long-limbed have a certain whip to their pitches. Ah. You kind of whip when you play. The long ass arms.

Yeah, but it's not just you drive down. It's almost like you kind of, I don't even know how to explain it. It's like a whip motion. The sound that you get off the kid is unlike anything I've ever heard because it shouldn't sound like that. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, I know it's nerd stuff.

Thank you. No, it's cool. That's what we do here. So let's talk a little bit more about the Tommy Land Rides again. I love the idea that you've gone back to a former project and sort of redone it. Was part of it you wanted to hear an Atmos? Was it an anniversary? What was the impetus for doing it want to do it?

A couple of reasons. One, it being a 20-year anniversary. And I had built a Dolby Atmos studio in my new house. How many, how many speakers do you? you need for an atmos? There is... Is it five or is a more... No, it's seven.

If at most for people don't know is basically like 3D mixing technology, right? Is it pretty much? What we would have called surround sound years ago, but it's the new version of surround sound. There you go. Instead of it, like a surround sound being, you know, front and rear

where you're like, oh, there are sides, there's a bob, Oh, I didn't know that, okay. Their rear sides, front sides, they're literally engulfed in sound. And having heard that, I went to PMC, has a studio here in town, and I went to their Atmos room,

and I heard it, and I was like, I have never heard it. anything like this in my life. I am not listening to music. I am in the music. And I was just so inspired. So I built that in my house. And then after hearing that and being inspired by that and actually with it and making it work, I was like, I got to remix some stuff because this, this, it needs this. It's begging for this. This is how it should have always sounded. So, and one of the things, and you'll appreciate this being a singer, one of the songs on the record really sonically is just unbelievable. It's called Hello Again, and I opened the record with it, like just basically

saying hello again to everybody who's coming back to listen to the record, right? But really, I wrote that song about my father dying and Hello Again being, you know, what would I say to my father again one day when I see it. Is it a new song or a song from the original record? It's a song from the original record. But what inspired me was, I was like, God, how cool would it be if the vocal was coming from up above? And it gave me goosebumps. So I put the vocal upstairs. So it sounds like you're singing some other universe. And you're sitting there and you're like, like, wait, the vocal. It's just insane.

You're like, and I, you can place, let's say, your vocal and you're doing some sort of a whispery kind of a vocal. I can put that right behind your ear. Oh, okay. And you're like, you know what I mean? And so it's just inspired me now. Like, I want to actually, I want to make a new record that's completely recorded in and sort of pre-thought. like how let's let's kind of put more thought in how it's going to sound before even while writing it but how do you deal because you know traditionally rock is mixed i know it's not necessarily a rock

record but you know rock type music is yes is mixed in a compressed kind of constructed way yeah how do you deal with the sort of the separation how do you how do you rationalize it as i enjoy because it's like being in the middle of the band working or how do you how what's your mental image. Like, of like perception of where you're at. Yeah. It's, it's not crazy different to where you feel like, oh, where am I? It still has that sense of most of the, most of the power is really coming from the left

and right to your ears. But there's this extra spatial wideness and behind you and above you that that's sort of the bonus. I guess, but most of the power is really still coming from your left and right stair wheel. One thing you're triggered in my mind is, I'll be taking as a compliment, but you know, you're kind of an ADD type of personality. You like a lot of stimulation in your environment. It's just the way you are. But in a way, you know, a lot of people struggle these days with how is music going to compete against the phone, against the dopamine hit? And maybe that type of

approach is actually a way to get music back up to speed where especially for young people, it sort of works more with the way their brains are working. Yes. And also skeptical, you know, like not everybody has Dolby Atmos. Yeah. Right? You know, like just a normal fan. They have technology now where it makes sense in the headphones, right?

Yes. Yes. Yes. And once I found out that there's a load of major karma, manufacturers that when you buy a new car, stock, it comes with Dolby Amos. Everybody from Mercedes to Cadillac to there's a bunch of manufacturers, a bunch of electric vehicles. I think Tesla, Rivian, a significant amount of people are offering Dolby Atmos in the car factory.

Yeah. And I was like, Oh, here we go. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to move. People, people, at the end of the day, I believe, want a new experience when they listen to music. You know, everybody's heard stereo for ever. Well, for 70 years, maybe. No, 70 years, right? Yeah. So, like, you know, at the end of the day, all this is entertainment, you know? Sure, yeah. Right? So, so it's, I feel like it's our job to give the listener a fresh new experience or something that they can't, you can't get anywhere else or something new, something, anything. Something different. And shout out to PMC. I use PMC as well. Great. You do that good boy, good boy. Great speech. Yeah, they are. I got shot on that nerd point.

Shout out to PMC. Is it true you started playing on the Sunset Strip late 70s? Is that accurate? Yes. You would have been like, what, 17, 18 years? I was 17. I remember we had to lie about my age to get to play. Somebody, my first gig, same.

He's not old now. Had a lie, same. Really? Nice. Yeah, right. I literally hid behind the lead singer, so no one, no one can see my face. Who's that kid?

Yeah, totally. But obviously there's the fame sunset strip, which you guys are in exact. What's that word? Inexcerably, inextrably linked to. Whoa. That's my big word of the day. And mine too. I'm just learning it.

Inexcerably. What is it mean? I either means, I think it's a fancy word for saying you're linked. Like you're, you can't think of the sunset strip without thinking about Mali curved. Oh. That would be the fancy way to say. Ah, gotcha. Inexerably. Inextribly. But before it really kicks in late 70s, early 80s, before it becomes the stuff of movies and miniseries, what was your, what was your impression then of that musical scene? Ben Halen was obviously the king of that time, but what was your impression?

God, dude. When you're that age, I don't, I mean, now my impression is different, but if you're asking me what my impression was, then, then, then, okay, this will bring it all home. I remember, I remember, this is how naive I was. I was. I remember calling my parents going, oh my God, you guys. we sold out the whiskey

Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, three nights in a row. I had thought, we made we made it. Yeah. Little did I know. We hadn't done literally. Hollywood,

three sold out nights, and I'm thinking we made it. Yeah. Little did I. I didn't know. I didn't know. Right? So it's pretty wild to have sat there and thought, whoa, this is it. We made it.

Yeah. You know? But in a way you had because because there was nothing comparable in the rest of America for what that scene was becoming. Yeah. There was nothing like that in Chicago.

There was in the, back in the day, when I was a kid, my dad would always talk about, um, uh, there was an area down in the city. Uh, why can't I think of the area? Old town or something. It was while the clubs were.

Oh. But by the time I was a musician, that was all gone. Oh. You know, I mean, there was no, like, centralized place where people went to go hang out. Oh, gotcha. You know, where in your time, you know, everybody would pile. Even if they weren't going to a gig, they would just walk the strip. Yeah, yeah, just hanging out anywhere.

Yep. What was the, you know, the tales of Nikki not being able to play? and people doubting that Nikki could offer something and you saw something and Nikki and that whole thing. But what was the first vision for the crew?

Was it like we're going to be because I always got the sense Nikki wanted you guys to be a clam band. Is that accurate? Like did he have, did he say, I want to be this type of band? Was there something

that was on the table? He didn't say he wanted to be any sort of type. It's like he had left his band London, which was full, kind of glammy, you know, rock poppy stuff.

Kind of like a cute boy band, right? Exactly. And I just remember he had like a handful of some songs and I just met him and it was this little house in Hollywood. There's no drums over there.

He just had an acoustic guitar and I'm playing drums on the coffee table and we just started vibing and that, That's when we were like, you know, that's when we started, I guess, trying to figure out what it was. What are we doing? So we're like, we found a guitar player and we found Mick and then we needed a singer. And I was like, I went to school with this dude.

All the girls love him. And he plays backyard parties and sings incredible cheap trick and, like, Ramones, and like, to all these, like, he was in a, like, probably the best cover band. Okay. Called Rock Candy at the time. And I was, so I took Nikki and make to go see him and plays at some backyard kegger party. And we were just like, that's our guy. Yeah. So we had to steal him out of there.

Anyway, long story, but it sort of got built, you know, piece by piece. You know, we got Mick and then like, okay, now there's this defining sound. Was there a musical conversation or was it just like some of the parts, you think? Some of the parts, for sure. You guys are, you're such a unique band. You know what I mean, to this day, I still think you're one of the most unique bands. I mean, people normally lump you into the hard rock thing, which makes sense. sense but at the end of the day the real roots of the crew are not they're not necessarily just hard rock

yep there's lots of things there that nobody would have put together yes you guys put together so a lot of different influences all somehow and somehow it works right but it's nothing you guys talked about no it's weird it just it just was just was yeah it's interesting yeah um and there's that one defining thing. It's like, you have a certain sound when you sing. And it's so identifiable. You can hear miles away like, oh, that's Billy. And Vince has that. There's not a lot. There's so many singers out there that could be anybody. And maybe let's even take it wide or bands. You're like, I don't know who that is. Could be 30 these bands.

But when you hear you sing, you know it's you. And when you hear Vince sing, it's undenial. You're like, that's Molly. The voice of... I haven't seen you for a outside, but we got a 14-month-old baby, Juno. And the other day, my song was playing on the radio, and the baby pointed at the radio and said, Daddy. No way.

Ooh. I was like, my kid. Yes. Yes. Daddy. That's, I love, I love Jimmy Chamberlain. Jimmy Chamberlain from the pumpkins loves Vince's voice and I do too. But he has the best description of Vince's voice.

Oh, feline. No way. That's the best. Feline. Feline. Wow. As only Jimmy Chamberlain could put it. Oh.

It's like it shouldn't work, but it does. I know. It's a weird thing. Yeah, like to imagine, I mean, obviously you've had different singers, but John Karabi, great singer. But something about Vince's voice made it more alternative or more something, or more like even cheap trick. It gave it an alternative feeling. Totally, like a John Karabi, great voice, but could be so similar to, So many others.

Yeah. Stephen Tyler to this to that. Yeah. Where Vince, just, he sounds like Vince. Only Vince sounds like Vince. Yeah. The crew as an institution is completely its own animal. You guys have played by your own rules.

You're one, uh, Jimmy Chamberlain and I sometimes find ourselves talking about you. And somehow you guys made all the things that you shouldn't do work and, but, but from, from somebody who's been in the game for a long time. What's another, what's another, uh, artist? It can be any era. another artist that you look up and say, wow, I really admire the way they went about the business of music, not just that you admire them creatively, but you like the way they sort of went at it because you know the game. Yes. You know, the business, I have a small handful of ones that I

completely admire about musically and how the evolution of their career. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm curious about. Yeah. To me, it's, and I, to me, to me, David Bowie and Prince are at the top of my list for several reasons. And we don't have those anymore. Like there's no mystery to anybody or anything anymore. or with social media and seeing what everybody's having for breakfast. And, like, the prince would never.

He would barely do interviews. And so he always left you wondering, wanting to know more about him, right? And he just wouldn't really let you in or just enough, you know. And David Bowie, from record to record, would completely change the way he looked. even musical styles would you know always like a chameleon just always that i respect and admire like guys like that that have just always sort of i don't know kept it kind of kind of underground yeah above ground and changing things up and not doing the same thing over and over and over and that's inspired us to would And you can see it in Motley where we'll change the logo.

We'll change the way we look. From record to record, it was always like, well, dude, they're going through this phase. They're doing this. They're doing that. And I think, I really believe that there's some of that is to be. So speaking of that, because I was going to ask about this, so I was always curious. I feel like I talked to you about it privately once, but obviously you were in public here. It was, it was, you did shout at the devil, huge record, huge, like, you know, it was like the teen anthem record of that year, whatever that year was.

But then theater of pain seemed to be a curious follow-up to a lot of fans at the time. Kind of like, almost like a glammy pivot, you guys change your look. Yeah. Were you on board with that, that change at the time? Yeah, I was on board at the time. I'm not saying it was a failure, you know what I mean? It was a successful record. Yeah, yeah.

Home Sweet Home was massive for us. At the time, it just seemed like a natural kind of flip the switch a little bit. Now when I look back, I don't know if that was necessary to go sort of that. that's pretty drastic going from like... Well, you went from the devil to... From Satan to, you know, like very colorful. Yes. And ballads and we were just, I don't know, man, we were just...

Yeah, it's hard when in a band because you're moving so fast. Those decisions, it's not like you sit around and talk about them for eight days. They just kind of happen and then you kind of live with them. Is that accurate? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Looking back, Shout of the Devil to me is such an interesting record,

because I really liked it at the time. I had it at the time. But I went back and listened to it again maybe like a couple years ago. And I just think it's such an amazing record. What's your perception of that record looking back now? I love that record. And for me, that was a record that, that we're working with Tom Wormon.

Yeah, great producer. Really cool producer. He had done cheap trick, and we were fans. We were like, oh, man, we're with a guy who can help us pull us off. And that's when it started getting into technology with samples and, you know, drum samples, and sequencers and all this stuff, although it's not very,

it's not very audible there, but it is in the background, we started reinforcing drums and doing some things that I was personally into, and Tom got into, and we all just kind of just started building this thing, but I love that record. Yeah, the way I feel about that record is,

and I don't mean it as a disc, because I love it. It's almost like, It seems like the same song kind of in variations. Oh, yeah. It's got to like, well, here's another version of the same song, but it's really good. Yeah. Like a lot of great songs. And it's like a really cool movie I don't want to end.

It takes you into a particular atmosphere. The sound of mixed guitar, I think, in particular, it would be as a guitar player. Just something about the whole thing. The parts, the way you guys are locked in, the sound of Vince's voice, all of it. Yeah. And it's like, it's really one of those records. I don't want it to end. I wish there was like 400 more of the same song.

That's so round. Wow. That's cool, man. Yeah, because at the time, you know, I was, you know, it's like, when the record came out, I think it was about 17. And, you know, you see the pentagram. You're like, okay, I'm down with that. That's cool. You guys are going for it.

This is dark. Because I was listening from the first D.P. I think I totally this a long time ago, but I, there was some hot girl who lived on my friend's block. She had, let's just say she was endowed in a particular. particular way. Yeah, yeah. And she's the first time I ever heard the name Motley Crew, because she was wearing a shirt. So being a teen boy, you look at her natural assets. And then it says Motley crew. Yeah. That's my first connection. Embossed, if you will. So because of that, I ended up hearing the first EP because she was a fan. And so when the shot of the devil came out, I was like,

okay, I'm ready for it. Like, give it to me. And those appendograms and the fire, okay, here we go, great videos. So, but at the time it was like, I kind of thought like, okay, that's cool. You're kind of doing this almost like comic bookie, hail Satan stuff. You know what I mean? Because I was already listening to Merciful Fate, you know what I mean? So, you know, it was it was the kinder gentler Satan with the crew. But looking back now, I just think the record is such a supreme statement.

That's so cool, man. I remember that particular, you know, album cover that together. Gave fold. And I remember a bunch of, you know, and I've been told by a bunch of fans that they're like, oh, bro, I had to smuggle that record into my bedroom to play it because the parents would see the cover and be like, uh-uh. Yeah.

No. And so the loss. But that's, that's honey to a team. Right? Right. Yeah, I just found that to be really cool. Like, dude, like, no, man, I could not let my parents see this. So you've come and gone, you know, with the band a few times.

So I guess the question I'm interested in is, how do you feel? How do you feel? But it's like, because I've been there in communion, like making peace with the band. Like, what I would say sometimes to people is like, even if I'm not in, my band, I'm in my band. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, totally. Like, your band is always going to be your band. There's never really going to be another band. There might be, there might be another band. Yeah. But there's only going to be one band. Right. And it's those lunatics that we both ended up in relationship with. Yeah. So how- Your fans aren't having it

any other way. It's this or nothing. There's that too, but I think it's actually the sweeter thing that I found, I don't know if you found it, but the sweeter thing I found is there's just something, sometimes looking across the stage at James and Jimmy and it's like, wow, 37, 38 years in, in our case, like, that's a lot of miles. That's a lot of up, down, come back around. Something's sort of sweet about it. It's like, wow, we're still here. And there's still people listening to us knuckleheads. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So how have you found making peace? Is that something that came easy to you? Is that something that just took time? Or something that definitely took time, you know, like, I don't think, like, you have, how do I explain this?

I don't think, yeah, that took some time, and you know, I think that can that came from, like you were saying, you know, seeing Jimmy and stuff and going like, God, still doing this. and you didn't really notice that until then. And same, same for us. Just, you know, knowing that there's only four guys that do this. And I'm so grateful that this combination of this combination of people, has like stood the test of time and this and that and like then you begin to have this, you know, this other respect for like, wow, man, you know, we did this together and it really

couldn't have been done without these four guys, you know. Yeah. It's powerful. It's super powerful. It's humbling on a level that. It's almost hard to articulate for me. Yeah, I'm stumbling on my words here. Yeah, because it's, it makes no sense.

Yeah, it makes no sense. Darcy from the Pumpkin used to say being in a band is being married to three people you don't like. Ah, that's a good one. But they're your people. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. They're your people.

Yeah. It's the way God chose it for whatever crazy reason. And obviously the public sees, in many ways the public sees more in you than you see in yourself. which is weird. Because young bands are full of, you know, swagger and all that. You know, that's part of the game. Yeah.

But you kind of realize they actually saw more in you than you even saw in yourself. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yes. We don't need to go into the,

to the Mick lawsuit, but at the time we're taping this, that's finally been resolved. So, yeah. I guess what I'm after is, you know, Mick is to me an incredible guitar player. I've always loved the way he

plays. He's such a cool guitar player. Yeah. I mean, he's a great guitar player on a technical level. I don't think everyone appreciates how good a guitar player Mick is. He's such a cool guitar player. Like, nobody plays like Mick. There's only one guy in the planet that plays like Mick, and it's a big Mars.

Yep. So I guess it's, I guess what I would say is now that you guys are pro to pass this kerfuffle, maybe just a chance to say something positive about your, whether it's musical or personal about Mick, because I know you're not a You're a lover, not a hater, you know.

100%. And for me, that whole thing was awkward and really hurtful to the point where people are saying, you know, untrue things and kind of doing that. And I was like, God, this sucks. I'm not into that kind of stuff, you know. It's like, why can't we just all, you? go do your thing, we'll go do ours, it's all cool. That part of it suck.

I guess, you know, that's like a divorce or whatever, it sucks in any format. You've had a few, so you... Yeah, so... But just to echo what you're saying, I mean, there is only one Mick, and he's an insane player, and it saddens me,

just on a personal level for him that, you know, this insane, you know, bone disease or spine disease, slowly, you know, started, you know, dementing his shape. And he's started to get locked into being hunched over, you know, good, good thing it was forward instead of backwards. At least you're looking at the guitar neck, right? Yeah, well, even on, even on the farewell to was of 2014, 25, 15. Yeah. I mean, there he was. I mean, he's, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he

he, he came to struggle. And then all the sudden, um, yeah, you know, it, I think it, it takes a toll on, and, and, and, and maybe his age, too, you kind of mix all that in, he started to, he, you know, he came to us saying, like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, he'd anymore. I can't. Well, it must be hard because when you're a prideful and great musician, anything that diminishes your ability to play your instrument, just that alone psychologically, that's got to be tough. Yeah, super tough. And by the way, the whole world's watching. You're not playing to 50 people in a club. You're paying to 25,000 people in an outdoor venue on a beautiful summer night.

Right, yeah. You know, I always try to to put my self in mixed shoes and um you know i got nothing but love for that guy and nothing but love i just wish it didn't get so you know and that's just unfortunately that's just the way things go when people are threatened or hurt or you know they they fight back yeah you know yeah but god bless yeah um but it's all good you know um um It's the crew, man. It's never going to be a straight line. I know, I know.

Ever. And while we're on the guitar world subject, I also in the same breath, I have to give props to John 5 because him coming in was the exact shot of adrenaline and life. and energy and fire that we were missing

because it was really becoming a struggle. Like we'd go to, I'd be counting off live wire and Mick would start Wildside. Like he started to not know, you know, started to not know where he was. When I saw you guys live, I saw one of those moments where it's like something happened where. Crane wreck.

Yeah. And, and where do you do? I've had to stop songs. Just stop songs. I'm like, dude, we got to restart this because he's playing the wrong song. And he doesn't know it. Yeah. It's like, oh, my God.

So anyway. Yeah. And so John, John, John's, you know, like yourself, has been a fan for a long time. He knows all the music inside and out, loves Mick. And This is just a beautiful human being, John. To me, dude, I don't give you how talented you are

if you're in it. I don't have much respect for that. You're talented and you're a sweetheart. Yeah. You're my favorite person. Yeah, I root for a guy like John. You know, I mean, I root for a guy like John. You know, he's, his heart's in the right place.

and he loves music and he certainly loves playing the guitar and it's like, Oh my God, he lives with it. Yeah. I don't think I've seen him with it, not one on his backpack. He puts me to shame on the rehearsing. So our good buddy, Neil Strauss, wrote the dirt. Yeah. In a weird kind of way, I mean, it seemed like it kind of revived interest in the band's story.

Is that a fair way to put it? the dirt book, like the book, did you feel it kind of revived people's interest in your guy's story? It seemed to do something, but I'm asking you. Yeah. It was an unusual. If you're being crass marketing, you know, it's an unusual thing to tell all these stories. Yeah. I just, yeah, it is weird.

We certainly have a lot of dirt. And I think, you know, from the title to have Neil, who's a great writer, I liked, his approach at the time was really cool because he did, he would have a bunch of sit downs with each guy separately, not with the man. And what happened doing it that way is literally like I'd be reading something. that Vince said, and I was like, I forgot about that. And so we all sort of reminded each other of things that we had forgotten or that was extremely blurry. Well, what was the famous line, Keith Richards has forgotten more than you'll ever do or something? You guys are in the general neighborhood there. Yes, yes.

So that was cool. That was cool that we sort of each reminded each of how. insane it actually was. Yes. And then, of course, inspired the movie and then to visually kind of put that together and see it. That's where a lot of new young fans came about. I'd answered hundreds of emails going like,

was that really how it was? These kids don't know. They have no idea. Oh, I see. You know what I'm saying? Yes. This kid's 17 going like, is that really how it was? Oh, yeah.

And they'll never, ever experience that time. Never. And so they're a curiosity. They're on board because they're like, man, these guys, like, what? They're still alive? The first time I ever met you was 92. You came to see us was chili peppers, pumpkins, pearl jam gig at Roseland. Oh, yeah.

And somebody comes up to me on stage, he goes, Tommy Lee's over there. You know, it's like, you had the big hair. And, but, you know, when we first got in the biz, you know, early 90s, well, now you have access to all the stories. And this is pre-internet. So who did we hear about? The crew, Ozzy, and G&R. Right, right. In terms of the rock stories.

Yes. So I heard them back in the day. Yeah. And I'm here to tell you they're true. So, so wild, man. Were you happy with the way the movie turned out? 100%. I still can't believe they smashed.

They smashed what? That book is based on, what, 20 years? Yeah. 20 years or stuff. Into an hour and a half? Say, my argument is it should have been a mini series. Same here. That is a mini-series.

Dude. Could have been one of the greatest mini-series of all time. I know. God, we've messed up. You know, with all the classic, I didn't even mess up, it certainly helped the band. But all the classic, you know, like the cliffhanger at the end of the episode. Yes. Will Tommy be able to pay the rent?

Tune in next week. Yeah. Oh, man. That would have been really cool. Okay. actually. Saints of Los Angeles, 2008. That's the last Mali Kru record of original material,

like an album, an actual album. Yeah, full record. So that's almost 20 years, starting with 18. So why no new albums? We, um, is,

is Nikki lost in Montana? I mean, what's going on? Um, all I see, because I follow Nikki on social media. All I see is a lot of mountains. Yeah, yeah. Horses.

Yeah, he's in Wyoming. Sorry. Yeah, it's sort of a love and hate thing. Like, he also has a place out here. So when it gets cold and shit there, he's out. Yeah, so I guess it's a, you know, and he does like the outdoors, but what was I going to say? Oh, new music.

Yeah. We did record a couple, new songs, Dogs of War, and I think we did a Beastie Boys cover. This is the tough call. Why knew new albums? Yeah, new album.

You know, the Rolling Stones have a new album coming out. Did you know that? I saw something about that, and my buddy, Andrew Watt, I think is... I think Andrew Watt's producing everyone

at this point. I know. I don't... That's so wild. But, But I, because I'm in a similar argument with my band about making new music. Oh, I'm curious to hear yours. I think rock is about to have a massive comeback, and I think albums are essential to meeting the moment.

Young people in particular, and we talked about this already, young people are coming to see us play. They deserve music for their time. Yeah. The old way of thinking is, well, play the hits, look at your numbers, that's what people are listening to. I think that's missing the point. If you're 20 years old and you're a Motley crew fan, you deserve music for your time. 100%, dude, 100%. I have this thing.

You're only as good. And you like to be in the studio. It's not like you don't like to do this. it and I'm writing constantly and I'm yeah and I I so it's Nikki's fault that's what we're getting yeah Nikki um over there in you're only as good as you Wyoming and for me you're only as good as your last effort I'm I'm not a bit I'm not big on like you know relying on what you've done in the past not to discount it but I'm just saying yeah where where are you now and I'm curious I want That's my point.

Yes, and I believe we should. It's just I got to, you know, do some arm wrestle and stuff to kind of get everybody to think that way. So that's what I was saying. If the Rolling Stones are making new album, and they are arguably the biggest band in the world. Right. Still, right? Yeah. If they're making new music in their 80s, why are we not rushing to make new albums?

You know, I'm on my way to rehearsal after this. I'm going to walk in and go. We need to make, Billy said we need to make a new record. You tell my old pal, Nikki Sixth what I said. I will. I will. And I'm with you, 100% because I hate, I hate that, you know, play the hits, give the audience what they want. Well, they also want to, I believe, want to know where you're at.

This is a poor analogy. But like, who's a movie star that you like, like an old school movie star? Old school one. Movie star? Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, this is a poor. big one. Oh, boy. Are you John Wayne fan, Humphrey Bogart, any of those guys? Oh, well, you're saying old old. Yeah, any, any, it could be anybody. It could be John Travolta, could be anybody. John, let's say Trowalta. Okay, there's only one John Travolta. Yeah. Do you not want to see a new John Travolta

movie if it's good? 100%. He's, and he's got a new one coming out. Okay, that's what's my point. I think, I think we got lulled into this other music business in the last 20 years. right which was about well it's about the pasts and the thing and we don't have MTV anymore so you can't market new records i think this is all totally misguided 100% man god because the streaming numbers on new pumpkin's music has been really good and and and i like the stuff that you guys have put out over the last 10 or so years i thought stuff was good yeah thanks In fact, I was with you one time when Bob Rock came in and was playing some stuff at your house. Oh, yeah.

I think it was when you guys were doing the dirt kind of, it was like four songs or something. It was like, like a version was on there. Yes. And I was like, this is great. Yes. Like, as a fan, I'm like, cool, yeah. Me more. Like, nothing wrong there.

Yeah, it's such a cool thing. That's my, that's my family. Keeps you relevant, current. I don't know, like, and not that that's incredibly important, but. And maybe it's more for the musicians to, like, want to do the new, like, here's where we're at kind of a thing. But I don't know. I just, my argument, and I'd make it even in private, is we've got to get back to running the music business around music. Dude.

Not museums. You know what I mean? Like, you can run the Motley Crew Museum and I could run the Pumpkins Museum. Yeah. And it's fine. Sure. And there's a business there. Sure.

But that's not why we got into it. I know. I know. Yeah. We got it to make magic, you know what I mean? And when you're one of the great bands and you're in one of the great bands, that's what you guys should do. That's my arguments. You tell Nikki Six what I saw. I will, dude. I totally will. This is a weird existential question. Maybe too arty for you, but what is true rebellion look like in a band in 2026? what does it truly mean to be rebellious if you're in a band in 2026?

It can be your band, any band. What does rebellion look like in this world? Oh, boy. Because in our age it was, okay, well, there's the record company, you know, I'm against the man at the top of the hill. Yeah. The slimy record promoter, you know, who's more interested in Coke and hookers than your new record.

You know, there was a system in place and you could rebel against them. Yeah. Or you could even rebel about, you know, because Reagan America, you know, this stodgy, very Republican America that we grew up in, you know, was like, push all those things over. Yeah. But what does rebellion look like today? Oh, man. That is such a weird but cool question.

Would rebellion, would that be just doing, keep doing, what you're doing. Yeah. Because that's what we would do is when everybody's going right, we're going left. Maybe that's, maybe that's what it is in disguise is just doing, keep doing what you're doing and doing it differently.

Because there's so many pop influencer pop types. They have hundreds of millions of followers, but nobody's really paying attention to their art. Yeah. So what does that tell you? You know what I mean? There's still this economy out there of if people believe in you and certainly you guys have had many acts of redemption with your audience, they still believe in you. There's something that you embody physically, emotionally, spiritually that they believe in.

Yeah. And to me, the winning is what we're just going to keep going until we fall over. Yeah. Yeah. I know, man. Anyway, sorry. No, no, it's great. I can't wait to walk into rehearsal and be like, Nikki, I need to talk you.

All right. Here's the final stretch. You could take this however you want. You are, I would call hyper-political on social media. Hyper-political. You don't have to talk to the politics. But do you think artists should be political, or do you think it's a personal decision? God, it's such a weird thing.

what's what's your definition of hyper political like well well there's there's there's definitely uh if you look at raw numbers just raw numbers this country is essentially 50 50 divided between left and right you could argue in one state it's more in one state it's less but overall it's almost literally divided if you notice even the presidential votes they're fairly close you know be 70 million this and you know what i mean they're yeah So our audiences, which are heavily comprised of people in America, well, just on sheer math, those audiences fall on both sides of the divide. So when you make a political statement on social media, and I'm sure you see the comments,

half the people are like, right on, brother, and half the people are like, shut up and play your drums or whatever. Dude, I cannot tell you. Like, that is the most, I hate that. Just shut up and play drums. What, I don't have an opinion or a voice or nothing? Like, you know, you don't have to agree. Right.

I'm just spitting out some bullshit that I think. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. It's not to talk about the politic. It's to talk about an artist being, taking a position. Do you think all artists should be more forward in their, in their politic? or you think it's a personal decision. Because, you know, there's a lot of people, and I'm sure you talk to them,

they're afraid of what it would do negatively to their career. Yeah. They avoid those things on purpose. They'll tell you what they think around dinner. Yeah. But they wouldn't say it on social media like you would because they're afraid of the backlash. Yeah, which that kind of sucks. I wish everybody would just be honest.

That's all it is. Yeah. You know, and not worry so much about. to, you know, you know. But that's what makes you out. You see. You're not a person who thinks a lot about consequences. No, no.

Yeah, because I don't care. But that's what makes you, you. Yeah. And it's also that, and that's why, you know, there's times where I'll post something or say something where I honestly, and I don't read the comments because I don't care. Yeah. And that's a fun position to be in.

I guess you can just kind of have your little like, social diarrhea moments where you just kind of throw it out there. If it sticks, cool, if it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Like, you just, hey, what do you guys think about that? Okay, so last thing. I call it if I rule the world. That's my, so if Tommy Lee ruled a world, what would you, what's one or two things you would like to see change,

particularly in America right now? It doesn't even need to be political. Like, if you had the power to change things, what would you change? I, you know, I don't even know, if it's possible, but God, I sure would be cool if everybody was so

just not divided so much. I feel like everybody's running their own program and like just all over the place. I wish I wish I could just like give the whole world a hug and be like, hey, guys, can we just

can we just be? Well, if Motley crew can get along. Yeah. Just be, you know, I would just, I would try to get people to, to, I would be injecting as much love as possible, you know, because there's an incredible imbalance right now everywhere. Like, it's just. Well, Sean Parker, who was one of the, he was behind Napster and was one of the main guys at the beginning of Facebook said they realized at the, at the, very early stages of Facebook that the way they were going to run those algorithms was going to divide people. Because basically the way those programs were set up is if you liked one thing, they were going to feed you more of it. Right. So if you were on one side of the politic, you were going to get more of what you wanted to hear. And so you end up in these echo chambers.

And I think that's kind of maybe what you're saying is people are so, they've lost the ability to actually listen to people. Yes. And that's what I love about even just being able to talk about. It's just like, it's just a conversation. Yeah. And I see where people get really, wound up about some of the stuff that goes on on this modest podcast. You know, but what I always say to people is, as an artist, if you don't believe in free speech, you're basically willing to have your gig blown up. Because I, you know, I once sang in a song, The Killer in Me is The Killer New. I never killed anybody.

Yeah. It's a metaphorical line. Right. We were banned by the BBC because they wanted to say. to change that line. Literally, when the song was coming out, it was a single, whatever, in 1993. They said, change the liner,

we won't play it, and we were banned by the BBC. You didn't change it? No, because I said, this has nothing to do with killing. Yeah. And it was a horrible situation because there had been an incident in England,

and they thought people were going to mistake the song for what had happened. It was a horrible thing that happened to a little boy, but, oh, boy. But, yeah, so as artists, I just think, as long as we sort of always say, well, free speech. Yeah.

That's sort of my one my one thing is we got to stand behind free speech because like when you're singing shout of the devil even if you said we were shouting at the devil, it doesn't matter. Yeah. And it's eye of the beholder.

Exactly. You have to have the ability and the freedom to say crazy stuff. Yeah. And the devil not meaning the actual devil like we were devils shouting at the establishment powers. Who was the devil?

Reveeval. now. Who was it? It was them. It was them up there. Them. Love you, brother. The people in power.

Love you too, bro.