The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Verdine White (Earth, Wind & Fire) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary Verdine White for a conversation about the rise of his group Earth, Wind & Fire and the vision that turned the group into one of the greatest bands in music history. Verdine reflects on leaving music conservatory at 18 to join his brother, Maurice White, and the promise that changed his life: "This is going to make you a legend." He shares unforgettable stories about Clive Davis betting on the band, the mentorship of Ramsey Lewis, recording That's the Way of the World, collaborating with illusionist Doug Henning, the Soul Train snub that nearly cost them their crossover, the game-changing performance at California Jam 1974, and what Miles Davis really thought of Earth, Wind & Fire.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

She said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, magic, magic, magic. There was something about Earthwind and Fire. It would seem so from another place. I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, wow, this is so fresh. Pound for pound, the music was right there. There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines. You know, our deal was what we were doing. I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real.

Man, man, we're musician. That's what we do. Beardine White, thank you so much. You honor me by being here. So nice to see you again. I was very excited about coming. Thank you. Tell me if this date strikes you correctly.

June of 1970, that's when you came out here at the behest of your brother, or Reese. Right. to join what became Earthwind fire. But was it still called Salt Pepper Trio? It was salty peppers. Salty peppers. But it was transitioning into Earthwind and Fire, it was. And he had just left Ramsey in April, 1970.

Yeah. He had been with Ramsey four and a half, five years. Yeah. And then I'm in college, my first year at the conservatory downtown. of Wabash, as you might know. Yeah. And, uh, fellow Chicagoans.

Chicago guys. Chicago. And, um, and then he asked me that I want to come to California. Yeah. What, what did he sell you on? He didn't have to. He said, do you want to come to California? And, and be in my band?

I said, yeah, sure. You know, and it was, it was a, uh, uh, a life-changing moment in a certain kind of way. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was, it was different, you know, it was, it was, it was different. And I, and I, and I got ready to come. Yeah. You know, I said, you know, I got ready to come to get ready.

And, and, uh, so that was the beginning. Yeah. But did your brother lay out kind of a musical vision? Did he say, I want to do this? Or was there languaging to it? No, because I kind of knew. what his vision was, because I would go to the rehearsals with the other Earthwinded that he was developing, Saddifil and Wade Fleming's and Don Whitehead.

That group he was developing, yes. Yeah. It's interesting because I know the hits, like everybody, but doing my deep dive to get ready for the interview and listening to the early stuff, it strikes me that from the first album, those key elements that made Earthwind and Fire a global act, they're already in there. They may not clear yet, but it's already in there, the horns and the rhythms and the feeling. That's right. Did you feel that from the beginning that was something different going on? Yeah, because we wanted to be different, but it didn't really become different to me to later.

Yeah. Actually later. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But you can hear those elements. There's like whatever, I don't know, the sound is so identifiable. Right. When you guys are at your absolute peak, I mean, there's only one band in the world that sounds like that. Right, right. Which is interesting because a lot of times a solo in R&B, there's a lot of sameness in it. Although we weren't on our peak that.

We were just kind of getting it going. Yeah, no, what I'm saying is it's interesting that the elements are there. Yes, yes. And the success didn't come immediately. No, it's not like you put out a song and then boom, you go to the top of charts. It was a slow build, but it was a great build, though. Yeah. I was lucky to meet Ramsey Lewis one time. Amid Ramsey?

Yeah. What a gentleman. Yeah. Wasn't he great? I was just in awe. Yeah, he was, he was great. I mean, I was just getting chills just talking about him. Yeah, man. Ramsey was a. What a great guy, man. Wow. So sweet. It's very interested.

Somebody said to me, I was at a show and they said, would you like to meet Ramsey Lewis? And I said, well, of course. Right. I mean, I don't want to bother him. They said, no, no, come read him. And I came in, he said, oh, hi. And he recognized me. He said, sit down.

And we talked for 40 minutes. And one thing that I really remember in the conversation is I didn't know at that point the connection between him and your family. Yes. And he told me about the origination years of earthwind and fire. Right. And how he saw something in your brother. And he really encouraged that. That's right.

It was so humbling to hear it from him. You know, as a fan of your music, it was to hear Ramsey Lewis say how he recognized there was something. That's right. Yeah, it was really humbling to me to hear that. That's right. That he had such a personal investment in your guys' future. That's right. He sure did.

And you know what was interesting, later on, Maurice ended up giving him a hit record with Sun Goddess. Well, you say pay it forward. Exactly, man. And then Rams ended up going on tour with us. That's so cool. On our tour. Yeah. And Reese and Rams are always close.

Always close. I can see that. They were always close. Yeah. One other thing about your brother that I knew, but I forgot until I did my research, was his connection to Booker T. Yeah, they went to school together. It's just another crazy connection.

That's right. They went to school together. Because you think of the music that your brother got about with us. Obviously, you're there with him. But then Booker T. goes off in his own direction. It's just incredible at this incredible rich musical history. Yeah, they grew up together in Memphis. Yeah.

Yeah, man. And then Booker T. came to L.A. Reese came to L.A. Yeah. Yeah. And then at that time, you know, we're talking about coming to L.A. that was like the first big explosion in the world in the United States of the hippie movement. Yeah.

The Black Panther movement, the Women's Live movement, all at the same time. Yeah. And then you had Woodstock. You had, you know, and you had hippies. See, when I came out here, I saw nothing but hippies. The same things I saw on television, you know, you know, hippies up close. Yeah. I mean, there were some hippies in Chicago, but not like out.

No, not like that. I think the hippies in Chicago were trying to be hippies on the north side, right? That was the hippest part. They could afford to be hippies. Yeah, because it was pretty rich up there. Yeah. But the real hippies are out here. Yeah.

If you don't mind and if it's not too personal, because maybe he tells the story in his book, but this why your brother was in Memphis and you were in Chicago. Yes. We have the same mothers. Yeah. Different fathers. Okay. I'm Verdeen Jr. from my dad, Verdeen Sr.

Okay. And what happened was that my mother had Reese when he was, when she was young. Yeah. Like 16, 17, you know, which was. It's tough. And that was a different world to back then. At that time. And, but she would always go visit him, you know. She came up to Chicago because a lot of African-Americans came to Chicago for work.

Yeah. You know, the great migration. You know what I mean? Well, that's why we had such an incredible history with the blues because of all the great artists that came up. That's right. And they brought up to the nightclubs and things like that. And the workers. there was more jobs.

Yeah. What kind of work did your mom do? She, I think, was a domestic down there from what I understand. Yeah. But then she became an elevator operator where she made my father, you know, getting on the elevator. And the rest of the system. Going up. Yeah, right.

And nine kids later, right? Yeah, wow. Right, wow. Wow. I don't know you came from that. Wow. Yeah, man. That's wild.

And so it was, so that was kind of like the difference of why that happened like that, you know. Yeah, no, I get it. So back to you coming out here, I saw that you guys did your first album at Sunset Sound. Now, were you, you were on Capitol Records? Is that, does that ring? Yeah, Capital Records, stacks for one of the singles. capital records, but the records that we did over at Sunset Sound was under the Warner Brothers. Oh, okay.

Okay. Under the Warner Brothers regime at that time, you know. And I went to Sunset Sound maybe a few years ago. It looks so small. It looks to be so big to me, you know. Yeah. It looks so small going up that studio ramp up there. Yeah.

Up there. Yeah. The car's in the parking lot. Oh, yeah. You know? Still the same. Yeah, yeah. Nothing's changed.

Do you remember what room you guys are in? We were in the big room. Okay. The big room. Yeah, yeah. And it was, we cut some good records out of there. Yeah. You know, we cut some good records.

That's where Clive Davis came to see us. Okay. Because we were in the transition, Warner's to Columbia. Yeah. Do you two albums maybe with the one label situation? With Warner. Yeah. And then what happened was that.

that Clive came and saw us. Saw something. And that was it. What do you think Clive saw at that moment? Well, he was in the midst of losing Slash Stone. And I think that he wanted another urban group, you know, another black group, you know. And, and Clive being sort of a revolutionary, innovative, doing something that nobody else ever did, brought us on the scene. Wow.

And Columbia Records did a great job with us, put a lot of money behind us, brought us to Europe, gave us the exposure that most African Americans never really got. Yeah. Yeah, he always stood behind what he believed in with music. Right. For sure. If he believed, he went all in. All in. All in.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is definitely a shift in, in production and feeling when you guys make that shift. Right. Well, we had time to make the records. Was that what it was? We didn't have to rush. Okay.

You know what I mean? Yeah. All we knew was the music. Yeah. Now, there's, I never felt it, but I mean, I get the overt version of it and why people would, because it's what I would call a lazy tape. But early on, you guys, we compared to Sly and the Family Stone. Right.

And that type of stuff. And, of course, there were bands that were successful around the time, like, undisputed truth, you know, there was this... That's right. And then don't forget, now, Motown was big. Yeah. So, you know... Well, Motown, yeah, Motown. People, of course, they focus on Motown in the 60s, but Motown in the 70s was still rocking. They were still rocking. In the 80s, too. You know, Barry had it down.

Yeah. But then, most people thought that most African-Americans would go to Motown. Right. Whereas that wasn't really our deal. You know, our deal was what we were doing, you know. And of course, later on, Barry and Maurice became great friends, really respectful towards each other. Yeah. You know, and at the time, Barry wouldn't have gotten Earthwind and Fire. He wouldn't have gotten what that was about.

It was too different for that. Can you kind of quantify that a little bit for people who maybe don't know the music past the hits or something? Like, because, you know, from the inside out, we have a different perception. you know, as you're standing there in 1973 or something, you know, what was it that you thought the band had that was different or voiced differently? Then Motown? Or just anything. It was different.

Well, it was different anyway because of the work, you know, the work that we did, the music, the musicality. Yeah, it was coming off of. The jazz influences and the samba influences. Right, it was coming a little bit off of jazz. And it wasn't overtly commercial. That's true. It was not overtly commercial. And then we hit it the right time when AM and FM radio came.

And started playing the longer songs. Right, the longer albums and the longer tracks, man. Yeah. You guys did have a rep for, because I remember those times, even though I was young, my father was a huge fan, so I heard all the music in the house. But you guys had a rep for being an album band, which was a compliment. Right. Like you weren't just a singles band, like you made great albums. Right. Your albums were worth listening to.

Right. It was, it was, I mean, like musical. Fair. You know what I mean? I mean, really musical. And it was, it was really great for me because those are my first records that I had ever done. Yeah. Ever done. Ever done. See, you're bringing back memories for me because, you know, as I've said, my dad was a huge fan and he played your music in the house. And I remember the first time I consciously, like I put on one of your records myself. And I just remember being so shocked because my father only really listened to soul. But there was something about earthwind and fire. It would seem so from another place.

I didn't understand it. I loved it. But I was like, wow, this is so fresh. Right. The feeling, the production, the, I don't know, the rhythms and the harmonies, it was just like, wow. Right. Psychedelic. That's right.

That's right. When we got to the last days and times, that was the first record for Clive, that's really when we started to really get it together. Yeah. Oh, you can hear it. Yeah. Were you doing a lot of road work at that point? We were starting to. Yeah.

We were an opening act for everybody. Anybody. I love this stuff, so tell me. Everybody. I saw where you guys were opening for like John Sebastian. That's why we're open for John. That's right. We're open for John.

Yeah. And Curtis Mayfield. Not too bad for the beginning. Did you know Curtis as a person? I mean, did you get to know Curtis personally? Later. Oh, okay. Maurice Norm.

Yeah. But don't forget, you have son, I'm 18 years old. So nobody didn't want to know me. Nobody got me. Nobody, you know, oh, that's his brother. So anyway, how's a family? You know what I mean? I love that you're still the little brother

in the band. Exactly, you know, and so so it was a lot going on all at the same time. Yeah. How was the reception of, let's call it, the general public, you know what I mean? It actually was cool. Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. We were cool. Yeah. Then I was cool. I started

getting cool because I was in a band. I mean, I was actually a real musician. Yeah. Yeah, man. Were there guys that you look up to on the base. I mean, your style is very distinctive. So, but I mean, was there somebody that you thought, wow, like that guy or? Oh, yeah, the person that taught me, the late great Louis Adderfield, who played on all of those chess records.

Right. With Maurice. Yeah. Rescue me and Fonel-A-Bad. I saw your brother play drums on that. Yeah. You never saw him play live, right? No.

He was great. Great. Well, you would know, you're in there with the right. He was great. And he had both things together. He had the jazz thing together. Yeah. And he had the funk band together.

And he had the R&B thing together all at once, whereas, you know, you get guys like, the late great Tony Williams, they were primarily jazz cats. Yeah. They didn't do a beat. Right. And you know with those records, if you can't lay it down, that record ain't working.

No, no, no, no, it's not coming out. This is not pro-tools time. No, that's right. No, no, no, no. It's in there. It's staying right in the pocket. Yeah. And so Maurice had, he had both things together.

Yeah. Do you feel looking back, I always perceived as a musician, your brother was kind of like a musical savant. Do you see him in that lighter? You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, he, you know, he knew, he knew his stuff. And I know when he called me to come out to California, I said, I said, what about all my schooling?

That's what I was up. That's so, yeah, my schooling. He said, I'll teach you everything you need to know out here. Now get here, you know. And it was a great way to starting to being an adult and things like that. Yeah. I did see this and I wanted to bring it up. I didn't know this about your history.

Sweet, sweet back's badass song. Right. Which is considered the first black exploitation film. That's right. as they're commonly known. And it was a huge movie, too. Yeah. It was huge.

It was like, for that era, a blockbuster. Well, he shot the movie on his own kind of. On his own? Yeah, like 19 days. Yeah, 19 days on stats records. Yeah. Melbourne Van Peebles, Mario's dad.

Mario Van Peebles, the great director, actor. Yeah, yeah. And Mario was in the movie. Now, I read this. On set, there were rumors of unsimulated sex scenes. Do you know about this? Well, we weren't on those scenes. We were just doing the music.

I would hope. No, I don't know if we could have took that, you know, and it had been over, I said, man, I knew we should have claimed to California. Oh, yeah. And, but we should. we shot the soundtrack in about three days. Yeah.

There are still based mistakes on there. Really? Yeah. I remember I got the album as a gift. And I put it on. I said, let me see if the mistake is still there. Put it on it. I said, it's still there.

Because that was the days where you didn't have a lot of time to overdub. Yeah, you know. Well, three to A's. Now, the whole band recorded at the same time. Yeah. You know, and, but it was a great experience working with the Melbourne. Yeah, that's such a cool thing.

I know that your brother didn't become like this kind of visionary producer right away. I know you were guys working with a guy named Wistert, Mr. Wisterd. Oh, Charles Stepney. But in the beginning it was Mr. Wissert, right? Joe Wistern. Joe, that's right. Joe at that time, you didn't really have independent. African-American producers.

They kind of gave you this guy. They gave you this guy. He was the house producer. Yeah. Was he encouraging of your brother's sort of production kind of? Joe was very cool. Absolutely. That's cool here now.

But Joe was there to watch over us. Yeah. You know, you've got nine black guys in there, man. You might burn the studio there, man. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? And, oh. That's a lot of testosterone.

That's a lot of testosterone in there, man. You know what I mean? And, you know, those horn players, you know. Yeah, your horn players, man. They got a lot of time on their hands. A lot of time. They'll burn the whole place down. And you were talking about you doing the Black Power movie, too.

Black Power boom, Gower, burn it down, right? And take him with you. And so. But you brought up Mr. Stepney, too, as well. Yeah, Charles was, he worked on the last season times record. the other two records we did on our own with Joe. Then Charles

really came in there, came in there really on open our eyes. Charles was great. He was our Charles. He was art, Quincy Jones. He could play it. He could write it. He could produce it. And he was the only one really that really Reese listened to. Okay. I mean, Reese listened to us. You know, like, you know,

one and out the other, but Charles knew his stuff. And Charles had worked with Ramsey. Ah. On the, uh, a great record that Ramsey did, a remake of Beatles songs.

Okay. I need to find that then. Yeah, you got to find it like Mother's Nature's son. Yeah. Charles did those records. Okay. Is it that,

is that, is that Mr. Stepney kind of pulled out, like the sophistication that was kind of hiding there, and then when it was there, then he came kind of like, Oh, this is, this is it.

Absolutely. And then he taught us a lot as players. And he slowed it down. He slowed it down. Can you explain that a little bit? When we were doing the sweet, sweet back, we never had a chance to overdub. Right. When we did open our eyes and that's the way of the world, we cut the tracks and except

would take us individually and say, okay, I'm going to need you tomorrow. all day, bring a sandwich. And then he would go over everything that I was missing on the track. You know, he showed me a double stop. He showed me this. He said, now let's try it again. And he said, oh, wow. And a compliment that he would give you, he would say,

I didn't know you could play like that. You know what I mean? It was so encouraging. And it made your work more pristine. Every note was right. you know, everything was right. When I think of you guys, it's like everything's so organized. Right.

It feels like a party, but it's like everything's like, uh, uh, oh, that's right. It feels like a party, but it's music. Oh, yeah. And actually, you learn, if you try to follow that stuff, you'd be saying, oh, my God. Yeah. Well, that's why, because I grew up with a musician father, he would be like, now these guys, you were held up as like the shiny example of like, that's music. Right.

Which is cool for me. Yeah. Because then I would listen, I'd try to understand what it was that he was hearing. Right, man. Beyond I like it or I don't like it. Right, right. Explain to me a little bit about, I know we're kind of skipping around time a little bit. But there's this moment where like some of the original band kind of leaves.

Right, the original from the first band left. Yeah. So it ends up just being you and your brother. That's right. It was just me and Reese. Wow. And was that like, I don't know, I don't want to project that, but was that like you guys were like, it's going the wrong way?

No, I just don't think there was a meeting of the minds. What did those guys want as opposed to what you guys want? I don't know because Maurice and them would have meetings, and I was never involved in the meeting. You're still the kid brother, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know. I didn't know. Like what meeting? And so after those things, Philip Bailey joined us. Right.

Who was actually a musical director for another group on Warner Brothers. Okay. What band was that? Do you remember? It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. Yeah, but... But I mean, what a voice.

What a voice. When I saw you guys a few years ago, I think he was 71 at the time. He was hitting notes that were like... Right. It's like, what a voice. Right. Right, man. And he had a voice then.

I bet. I bet. And a wonderful guy, too. Really great guy. And a great musician. Yeah. in his own right, solo artist in his own right, you know, Phil Collins.

You know, it's like, oh, yeah, we found Philip Bailey. Exactly, exactly. He was over at the corner, you know, just hanging out. That's right, that's right. But he had moved to Los Angeles. Yeah, but still, what a beautiful marriage. Absolutely. Right.

I saw this, when you guys start figuring out what becomes like the quintessential Earthwind and Fire sound, I saw where Rolling Stone called it a cosmic choir. Yeah. And I like that. Yeah. Because there was always this kind of celestial quality to your music. And, you know, it was a big deal for us to get into Rolling Stone magazine.

That was like the Holy Grail at the time. You know, when we got in there, you know what I mean? We said, oh, man, we arrived. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, if you look at it from a historical point of view, you guys seem to blow the market wide open. Yes.

There had been other artists that had crossed over. But you guys seemed to just erase the lines. Yeah. Did you feel that at the time? Well, I knew we were hitting the mark. You know, we were happy we were hitting the mark. But we were hitting the mark with great music, too. It's just like we weren't blowing it open because we blew it open.

Yeah, yeah. You know, we blew it open because the music was there. Well, it's, I mean, you tell me, but going back through your catalog to talk to you, there's no compromise. Do you feel that when I say it like that? It's like, you're one of those. Those bands where I don't feel you guys, like you're very much doing your trip. Oh, yeah, we're doing our trip.

That's right. We were doing our trip. It's not like you guys are trying to bend and find the market. Like the market comes to you. That's right. And we had, we had the goods to the. Oh, yeah. We had the goods, man.

I mean the goods. Your brother, Fred White joins at some point. Yes, my baby brother, God, rest is so. What a wonderful kid. Babies. It was a baby. Was it hard being in a band as three brothers or was it a good thing? It was great.

It's like just, see, what else? It wasn't that a big of a deal. Yeah. Rees said, we're going to studio. I said, okay, what time? Two o'clock? What time's Freddy did there? I told him two.

He'll be there at four. And Freddie had played with Donnie Had the way. Right. I saw that. And somebody I didn't expect Little Feet, maybe. Little Feet. That's right. With Lord George.

Wow. With Lord George. Low George, wow. That's his cool musician. That's some different thing. With Low George, man. That was a great group. That Louisiana kind of.

Yeah, man. That was great. You know what I mean? That's cool. Lute was a great group. Lowell was great, man. Really underrated. Still.

Underrated. Yeah. It was underrated. Wow. And Fred was to keep the pocket. And then as Marie started transitioning more as producer, Fred did the drums. Right. Things like that.

And one thing about Freddie, which I was always, always like sort of envious and jealous of him. When Marisa played the tracks before we go in the studio, like Freddie wouldn't like, you know, it's a demo of the song, blah, blah, blah. Freddy wouldn't show for the demos. I'd be there listening and trying to get it together, trying to get it. Reese played the track right before we cut it.

Freddy could remember it the first time down. First time down. And he wasn't even there. And I'd have to list. I said, I had to take it home. Yeah, yeah. I got to listen to the car. I got to get into it.

I got to, you know, I got to have a cassette deck at the time, got to bed, so I, you know, so I could get in there nailed, you know. But he was so brilliant, so young. Some guys are just like that, right? Yeah. He just hated them. Yeah. I saw when you guys played Cal Jam, 74, which is a legendary.

California Jam. Yeah. Yes. Day of music. 200, 250,000 people live on ABC. Right, yes. I went and watched you guys playing. There you are in your yellow pants.

Just rocking out. And my wife patented out the shoes. You know what I mean? Was that kind of a, I don't want to be overly simplistic, but was that kind of a breakout moment? Or is that just... That was a breakout moment crossover-wise. Okay, that's kind of what I was after.

So the African-American public, we were known, you know, on all the black stations. the DJs, the records, things like that. But with that, that was a big break through moment. Because we only had Soul Train. That's all we had. That was it. That was it.

And sadly, for a lot of great African-American artists, that was it. That was it. For Soul Train. And it was a limiting. What was the gentleman's name who ran? Don Cornelius. Don Cornelius. And Don was a DJ.

Right. What a voice. In Chicago on WVOM. That's right. The voice of the Negro. Right. Right. And, well, I mean, to me, Don was the pathway by which I found great soul music. Right. And later on, Don said the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train. Because, see, we wanted to be on Soul Train. I bet. But we wanted to play live.

James Brown played live on Soul Train. Right. And, but Don wouldn't let us play live. Any reason? Just because too much of a hassle. And looking back at it, maybe we should have lip sync because that's what everybody else is doing. You know what I mean? But don't forget that we were elitist. Well, rightly so. And we had that kind of music that this music is too good to be pretending to play on a record.

Yeah. Same for us. Will we be us to lip sync? We always think like. You said, no, no, man. We play. Man, man, we're musician. That's what we do.

You know what I mean? We don't need no record. No tape. You're right? So, but Don was a good guy. And he always came over. He said, man, that's the biggest stick I ever made, you know? Especially when you guys got huge.

Right, because nobody knew. No one knows how big anybody's going to get. Yeah, but you guys got really big. Cal Jam, you guys played with the Eagles, Seals, and Crofts. That's right. Black Sabbath, deep purple. Right. And Emerson, Lake and Palm.

Elp, right? Yeah, man. I remember them guys, man. Right, right. That was a, that was a great show. We were, uh... It's legendary now. That day is legendary. I think we were number two on the bill. Yes. I think you followed Seals and Cross? Seals and Cross. We followed Seals and Cross, right? Yeah. And, uh, and you know, now you have laminates. Right. And at that time, it was a little strict. You know, That concept was a little strict backstage. That? The politics.

So you wore the laminate with a number on it. That let them, okay, you came on two. Oh, I see. When you get off, you got to get out of there. Okay. Right? So that's what happened with that particular. So you didn't get to see the show?

No, because they wouldn't let us see it. Oh, my goodness. They wouldn't let us come out and see the show. Yeah. They couldn't. There's this famous clip where. Richie Blackmore, the guitar player for D. Purple, rams his, he was mad about the, I guess the show was running late or something.

So do you ever see this clip? No. He takes his guitar and he rams it through the lens of the camera. Like for real, like. Wow. Yeah, for real. And then he lights his amps on fire. Oh, okay.

You guys missed all that. No, we missed all. And we weren't into that stuff. No way. You know what I mean? We couldn't. We couldn't ram. Nothing and, you know, said anything.

We couldn't afford it. That's right. That's right. Every time I ever broke a guitar, I was like, do I really want to pay for another one? That's right. Is it true that you talked about That's the Way of the World album, but it's true that it was supposed to be for a movie, and you guys saw the movie and thought the movie was going to be a bomb? Oh, that's where the world. Yeah, can you, is that a true story?

That's the way the world was Six Shore. And Sixth Shore had produced Superfly. Okay. And, of course, that record was big. Oh, yeah. So we think, oh, we're going to be with Sigure. Great. Super.

And so we shot the movie. And it was Harvey Keitel's first movie. Okay. Harvey's first movie, you know. Before all the, yeah, hoopla. The hoopla. And he plays a producer. Okay.

Just trying to break a black act. Okay. That was the premise of it. And you guys are the act? We were the act. Okay. I've never seen the movie. that's what.

Yeah, we were called, that Earth on Fire, we were called the group. The group. Right. That's weird. Weird, isn't it? Yeah. Corny, right? Right.

And, um, but the record was so good. Hello. I mean, it was so good. And, uh, and we saw a rough cut, uh, at an editing place, it was called Editel on Highland. and watched the movie. And, um, I said,

oh my God. I started crying. I mean, I was like, you know, I said, oh my God. Oh. You know.

But I was assured that it was going to be good. Because Columbia Records was all geared up. They weren't even thinking about the movie. Because they were going to break it black anyway. Okay. You know, they weren't thinking about pop.

But the record ended up taking off. It ended up being huge, shining star. Hello. Number one album, number one song. Right. I think, if you correct me, but I think you guys were the first African-American act to have both.

Both. At the same time. At the same time. At the same turn. That's, I mean. At the same time. When my album went number one, I asked my manager, is there any higher position? You know what?

Because when you're at the top, it's like, that we actually arrived. That's right. That's right. And you're like, at that point, you're what, 24, 25 years old? This happens. 24. Not bad. You're doing all right?

That was doing all right. It was 24. And I had just bought my first cool car. Do you remember what it was? My first cool car A Dotson 280 Z Okay

Silver AMFM radio Black number C Um No A-track 75 No was a cassette Okay cassette Okay because cassette was the new thing

The new thing That's right A track was the old thing For the bigger car The caddies and all that stuff Right The bigger caddies right You can not write your name and address

On that A track Right But yeah, it was a watershed moment. Columbia Records did a great job. Pound for pound, the music was right there. Well, Shining Star, that's the first time I consciously knew there was this group and they were making this music. I mean, I'd heard the music, but it was like, now it was my music because we had a 45 of Shining Star. Right.

And I remember just listening this record thinking, how do you make that sound? because I love sound. That's like something that's personal to me, you know, the sound of a record. Right. And I just think, I kept thinking. And George, George Masonberg, and you know, oh, my, George. Well, hello. But I mean, the sound of that record, like, what is this?

Because I'd heard soul music my whole life. Right. But this was some other stuff. Like, what's going on? Right. The Christmas, the rhythm, the sound of the voices, the horns just. And we were. We recorded at Caribou.

Right. Caravu Ranch. Jim Garcia. Right. From Chicago. From Chicago. Yeah. Bloodshed and tears.

Yeah. So we recorded up there for like six weeks. We stayed there six weeks. And it was good for us because we had a chance to kind of get off the grind. Yeah. You know. Focus. Stay in one place every day.

Yeah. You know, be around the mountains and things like that. Yeah. Wow. How did you? I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a heady age to get a lot of success. Were you cool with it? Did it go to your head?

Like, how did you, how did you feel about it? I was cool with it. Some of it was heady. Now it goes every beside of everybody wants to know your name and hang out with you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did hang out because I went to a lot of the clubs, the whiskey, the rainbow, and the rainbows. From Chicago. From Chicago.

Oh, I mean, Chicago everywhere, right? The Roxy. Yeah. The Roxy came a little bit later. Yeah. I went to the clubs. Yeah. Because that's where all the music was at.

Well, you're young. I mean, I have, man, all the clubs. I'm going to hate the music. I want to hang out. You know what I mean? I never did the drug thing. I was very lucky with that. Yeah.

I never. Especially those years in the 70s. Yeah, that was out there was out there. It was, it was, uh, every drug you could imagine was there. And it was going in different successions. You know, it was going from like, you know, weed, marijuana to to free base to this. It was moving. It started with psychedelics.

Yeah. You know, sort of with the psychedelic era. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I was very, very careful. And what kept me together was, um, fear. Sometimes that works, right?

It worked great. Yeah. And respecting Maurice because he had worked so hard. Yeah. And he took a skinny kit and put him in his band. Yeah. And he kept his promise. Because I know he used to tell me, he said, man, when we signed with Clive,

and we got their first big contract, we were rooming together. And he knocked on the door and Reese had a deep voice. He said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, legend, legend, legend, man. You know? And I didn't want to, I didn't want to disappoint him. You know what I? Because he took a risk for all of us.

Yeah. All of us. I get it. Okay. So now things are cooking. He starts calympra, productions. And there's that great,

is it Denise Williams? Neesee, right? Great record. That record is, if had that record come out later, it would have got nominated for a Grammy. She came out early before the Grammys got its act together. Yeah.

The Grammys didn't really get his act. Well, we could argue they still haven't gotten their act together. Yes, we can't. Can't with you. They hadn't gotten their act together in terms of African-American acts. The Grammys really got their act together where people had a chance to notice it when Michael Jackson. Yeah. And Stevie.

Yeah. You know, we got Grammys, but nobody knew about it. Right. You know, we got Grammys and, you know, now you get a Grammys. And the winter airs Earth, When the Fire. You're sitting right in the front and you go right up, you know. Then in the winter airs Earth when the Fire, they're up in Isseek 43. And then you start saying, well, how are we going to get down there?

You're not. They don't want you up. They didn't want you up there. But listen to that, that this is Nisi. I mean, and it struck me because I knew the music a little bit, but what struck me was like, that's like neo, what they would call neo so later, but like 20 years before it gets there. Right. Like you guys were like, you guys were so broad in your ability.

Like you guys are hitting this, all of us like a totally different home run with a different artist. Right, man. That's different than Earth When It Fires vibe, which is a totally, other game over here. Right. It just strikes me like, wow, you guys were on fire. Excuse the pun, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a great record. And I, and I, and I listened to the track and I was like, I sure hope you're playing on this because I want to talk to you about it. Yeah, no, I am. That's me. Yeah, no. That is me. And, uh, that whole thing is just, wow. That's a superb record. Isn't it cool when you look back and you just see like, there's just magic going on, right?

Yeah, man. And she sounded so wonderful. What a singer. You know, a great, singer. She was with Stevie Wonderverse, though, in Wonder Love. Okay, I didn't know that. Yes. And then Stepney heard her voice, and Nisi was doing the demos for the emotions. Okay. And then Rees, and then Step told Reese, man, we ought to record her too. And they recorded Nisi as well as the emotions. Wow. Yes. The emotions from Chicago.

just rocking. You guys are just rocking. It's just, it blows my mind because I don't want to overstate it, but my father so badly wanted to be successful. So all I heard about in the 70s was how difficult the music business was. You know what I mean? So I know maybe firsthand what it took for you guys to be that successful, particularly as an African-American group in America at that time. Like, I understand it. Like I had like almost like a front row seat. Sure. You know, because my father mostly played in groups with African Americans. He wanted nothing to do with white music. Okay.

So he was like, you know, the joke I always make, he was the white guy in the black band. He wanted nothing to do with white music. Okay. And he would tell me, this is where it's at. This is the best music. So that's what I'm saying. When he held up your records, he, like, he meant it. He wasn't just a fan.

Right. This is, this is music. This is the music I want to make. Right. And I, you probably wouldn't remember, but when we first met, my father literally picked up the base because of you. Oh, wow. Yeah, for real.

And he was a really good guitar player. Wow. But something about the way you played made him want to play bass. So then he became a really good bass player, too. Wow. So it blew my mind because, like, my dad was really good, and then suddenly he's playing all this crazy shit on bass. And I'm like, why are you playing like this?

He's like, I want to be like Verdeen. Wow. Yeah. So I'm sitting here watching and playing the living room, like, trying to be Verdeen. Wow, man. Oh, yeah. For real. Wow.

Yeah. Cool. Bam. Yeah. That's why I get chills because I was there, even though I was a kid, I don't understand now because I'm old. But at the time, I'm like, I don't know what I'm connecting to, but I feel it. Right. I'm hearing your music.

I like your music. I'm listening to your music on my own. And here's my dad in the living room trying to play like Verdine. Wow. So when you say why you want to talk to me, that's why I want to talk to you. Yeah, man. No, but when I got your call, I said, oh, man, I got to do this, man. God bless you.

I said, he's a man, man. And I said, he's hip. He knows what's going on. I understand. Tell me from the inside out because, you know, as a kid, you know, there you guys are with the pyramids. Yeah. You know, the kind of mystical earthwind and fire, which I loved. I always thought it was so cool.

But like from the inside out, like, was that somebody's idea or? It was, well, we've always had these great ideas, but that idea crystallized with Doug Henning, the magician. By the way, when I read that you guys did work with Doug Henning and. And David Copperfield, I was like, wow, this is really out there. Yeah. Because Doug Henning was the biggest magician of the 70s. Of the 70s. He was on TV all the time.

Right. You remember magic. Exactly. And he was from Canada. Okay, I had to know that. So when he would tell us, you know, we're going to go out in the boat. That's where he would talk. And but he was a great artist.

Yeah. And then we were also at the particular time, George Faison, the choreographer, director, that put the pieces together of Doug's ideas. Okay. He put them, he put those pieces together. But whose idea was it to sort of, I'm not saying you made a shift, but suddenly it seems like somewhere else, it, it, the famous image of you guys at that time becomes like the look of the band? Yeah, that, that, we call that the tube show. because the tubes came down and we were like, I'm laughing because it's our goal, please finish.

But then we were in these things that came up, so when it go down, all of a sudden, we appear in the tubes. You know, and Doug put it together, but George Faison really choreographed, really beautifully, and directed. And that show was a hard show to do. We rehearsed that show man for like six months. Really?

That's a lot of time to burn. Yeah, you wouldn't get that at all in today's market. You'd lucky to get six days to rehearse. You know, because we had to do the music first. Then we had to do the choreography, which was hard because we did two choreography sessions. One that started at 11, no, 10.30 to 1.30 to 1.30. took a two-hour break for lunch,

then we get into the evening bar, like, you know, six o'clock on. Wow. Yeah, man. That was for the show, the big show. Wow. Yeah. The reason I'm laughing is because I remember one day my teacher,

I don't remember what graded, but I would have been, whatever the year, would have been, like, nine, ten years old. And the teacher said she's going to go see you guys play live. And it was so jealous, you know. So after she saw you guys play live, I said, how was the show? And she goes, well, they came down in these tubes.

Right? So I always remembered that story. And then when I saw it the Spinal Tap movie, there's that bit where the guy gets stuck in the pod. And I always wonder if that was like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, a, like a, a, like a, like a, a, like a, you guys with the tube. It could have been. It could have been. It could have been.

It could have. They might have. And, and the thing about it, the rehearsals were closed. Okay. Nobody got in those. rehearsals. You couldn't, you know, you couldn't get those rehearsals. It's because you didn't want anybody to know. That's right, because don't forget, now, we were an African-American group. And with us, we didn't, you know, now there's more latitude. We were afraid that our ideas

are going to get stolen. Yeah. You know, and we wouldn't be able to do it. I see. That we would get stolen. So we locked everything. Oh, wow. No, but then. you didn't have cameras then, but we didn't let anybody in. But we didn't really do that in the studio either. You know what I mean? We didn't like, you know, let a lot of people in the studio watching us.

Yeah. I'd forgotten, but of course it makes total sense you guys being in the Sergeant Pepper's movie. I'd forgotten you guys were in there. And you had the biggest single from that movie. That's right. Any reflections? Because that movie's kind of considered

an interesting moment in time. Okay. Everybody assumed it was going to be a big movie and turned out to be kind of a bomb. Yeah, everybody thought it was going to be a big movie. But, you know, we learned from the That's the Way of the World record about that record. Yeah, yeah. Because when we did Sergeant Pepper, it was Billy Preston, the BGs. Peter Frampton.

Peter, who was a good friend of Maurice's, by the way. Oh, I didn't know that. Peter was. And great guy. Aerosmith. Aerosmith, right, Stephen. The BGs, of course. I said the Bee Gees.

The BGs. And we were just sort of like the black thing to throw into the movie. If it's not a strange question to ask, when you guys face those types of situations, you knew that's kind of what they were doing. Were you cool with it? Or you just, I don't know what it must feel like, but it seems to be like how do you still go into a situation with full enthusiasm?

If you feel like. You just go, because, you know, our ego was so big and we had all those hits. So we said, we don't care. Okay. But we did that, we did Sergeant, the Sergeant Pepper, God to get you in my life. Yeah. And, um, what a great.

And we made, Paul McCartney said it's maybe his favorite. Yeah, yeah. George Harrison came up to me and said, he thought that was a great rendition and I was, oh, my God. And, uh, nice compliment. Uh,

it turned out to be a, number one song. Yeah. Great song. But what we did, um, we put the single out, before the movie came out. Because you'd learned your lesson on the other.

We learned a lesson on another one. Yeah. And it was a number one record before the movie came out. I see. So we didn't depend on that movie making the record a big hit. Smart. And did you know it was going to be a, I don't want to say it was a bomb, but did you know it wasn't the movie it didn't click?

Did you see it before it came out? Yeah, we did see it. Yeah. How did you feel about it when you saw it before? Well, we knew it was not going to be a hit because. when we were singing, everything was out of sync. We said, oh, that's a kiss of death. Yeah.

You know what I mean? But we didn't really worry too much about it. You know, it was like it didn't feel like it was a lot of hype. A lot of hype, you know, and it was really about the Bejys at that time. Yeah, it really hurt the Beegis. Yeah, because it was. They had so much momentum. It was the first thing they did were,

You know, because they had that crazy momentum. Oh, my God. Round a roll. Yeah. It seemed like everything just kind of stopped. Well, because I think with the movie, it was a kiddie movie. It was like for kids. It wasn't really like, you know.

And the B.J. were doing some adult records, man. They were doing some, how deep is your love and too much heaven. When you listen to those records, man, they did some great records. It's unfair, some of those productions. Those vocal stacks. And Maurice and I used to listen to their records. I remember he bought a record of their house, over to the house of their records.

He said, man, you gotta listen to this. You know, really great records. Barry Gibb, as a producer? I think Barry, outside of George Martin, Barry has more number ones than anybody else ever. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. And then the things that Barry did with Barbara Streisand,

you know, guilty. Yeah. That's it. You know, all that good stuff that he did with Streisand. Great, great producer. Yeah, but they were just, well, you know, You know, commercialism sometimes can box you in. Yeah.

Well, it's kind of where I'm jumping starting to interrupt, but it's like you guys, where a lot of bands were really hurt by disco. Right. You guys just kind of cruised through because you already were, dance was part of what you did. Right. It didn't hurt you. Like, the BeeGs were considered a kind of a credible rock act.

Right. But the disco thing ultimately ended up hurting them. Of course, now this weather legends, but there was that whole period when the rock crowd turned against disco. Yeah, well, I think what happened. disco got beat up unfairly. You know, it started in Chicago, right? Right.

Steve Dawley. Comiskey Park? That was Steve Dawley Park. I was listening to the whole time. He went on for about two years on the radio about Disco Sucks, Disco Sucks. But he was just a local DJ on a rock station. Okay. Somehow he convinced the White Sox to do that event.

We're going to blow up all the disco records. So if you brought a disco record, you got into the game for free. They put all the disco records in a pile and they blew it up. Well, they blew a hole in the field, which was bad enough. And then all the fans that still had some disco records with them started throwing the records at the field. And it's one of the only games that's ever been forfeited by a team. The White Sox lost the game that they didn't play because the fans were throwing the records at the players on the field. And see, and in a way, that was unfair, too.

Yeah. Because don't forget now, a lot of it had a lot to do with disc jockeys. Because don't forget now, the only records that were able to get on the air, with disco records at that time. You know, it was like everything was four on the floor. Yeah. Four on the floor. So regular songs weren't getting played.

I see. Even Neil Diamond did a record with four on the floor. Forever in Blue James, babe. That's all you heard on radio. Yeah. And I think it hurt anybody that said, I'm a disco guy. I see. Don't forget.

Now, part of disco was the platform shows. Was it a big ass. You know, so I think it hurt it, I think it hurt them because they had the tag of disco. Yeah. Whereas if you really get into their records, man, Nate did some great records. Yeah. Did you feel there was any toll from all this success? Did you, did you guys wear down?

Because there's this point where you guys take a hiatus. I know it's in the 80s, but. Right, 83, right. Yeah, but is there, I don't want to say, do cracks appear anywhere, or is it just, are you guys just running headlong? I think we just were running headlong, man. You know, no breaks, no sleep. I mean, we were knocking them records out, man. I mean, knocking them out.

I mean, every day, every day. And then don't forget, now, we were part of the cultural change. You know, we were part of that big, that big culture wave. Yeah. You know, we were part of that whole thing that was moving, you know? Yeah. So, oh, absolutely. You know, I think it took a toll on Reese.

Yeah. You know. But you were. were cool with it or I'm just asking you to reflect on the time I think we didn't really have a choice I see you know what I mean I think it just

and don't forget a lot of other things was converging the music was changing yeah it was going from real drums to drum machines yeah you guys made kind of a 80s kind of drum machineish type of record right which really actually in retrospect probably was a mistake

well it's weird to hear a record where you're not really playing and if you are that's right The synth is louder than you. It's louder than the bass. And if you listen to every 80s record, you can tell every 80s record, drum machines. Remember that sound? I kind of like that sound.

Right, you know. And so I do think it took a toll on all of us. And I think that era, it took a toll on that era too. Because when you really look back at it, you know, like we're talking about our work, which was really primarily 70s work, things like that. We don't talk about the 80s that much.

Yeah. The 80s don't get no love. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't as familiar with some of your 80s records. I went and listened to some stuff. I don't think we had a hit in the 80s. Not that I remember. No, we didn't really start getting it back together to the late 80s.

But what's weird to me is I listen to some of that stuff, and the music's still good. It's not like I think, like, you know, sometimes you listen to band you love and then they hit that weird wall and you think like, oh. You said, oh my God, cut it off. But not with you guys. No, we were pretty lucky.

We were very lucky. And then also, too, one of the things that we had, we were fortunate that the audience waited on us. Okay. To get it together. Well, you think it was just a deep loyalty that they had with you? I think we had done such really good work.

And there were not a lot of African-American acts that big. So they waited on us. Okay. The, uh, the acts that I thought that really great, of course, Michael. Yeah. You know, blew through the roof. Prince, of course. Prince, Lionel.

I mean, on some level, there must be a level of pride because you inspired this, this other way that came in. Absolutely. Now, the one thing that they got that we never got, we never got MTV. Ah. We were never on MTV. Wow. Even in the heyday? Never.

That's my jaw dropping. on the floor. Never. How is that possible? Who knows? Wow, that's crazy. We would never, we never got on MTV. Would you believe we never got the cover of Ebony?

That's even more jaw dropping. And then we never got the cover of Jet magazine. And Jet should have been easy because mostly the guys would get the Jet Magazine to look at the pinup girl in the middle. You know, at the music, at the newsstand, they would get it. And they said, oh. that was Jet Magazine But even was in Jet in Chicago?

Yes, right. You didn't even have the hometown advantage. Right. And so we didn't really get too much love. But when we started, the world started changing again. Yeah. Getting more urban again. Yeah.

You know, we were right there. Wow. That's crazy to me. Talk about this however you like, but I, you know, I kind of remember it, but then reading it out, you know. Your brother goes off and starts producing Neil Diamond, Mara Streisand. Philip Bailey starts to go solo because a huge solo artist. Right.

You did some production work. Did you see that as just sort of like, you know, the world is expanding because of your success? But did it feel like the band was falling apart? Did it feel like everybody was still on the same page? It felt a little bit of both, falling apart and together. And we were still creative, though. You know, we were still doing some great work. Yeah.

I work with Mark King, level 42, great bass player. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. And, but we were still growing. Don't forget, we were only in our early 30s. Yeah, but, you know, the music business can be cruel that way. It can. You know, if suddenly the wind blows a little bit different.

Right. You know, you guys still have all this stuff going on. Right. It's not like, you know, if the phone stopped ringing, you guys are busy. But even I was surprised, and I'm not looking for gossip. I don't really do gossip. Like, you know, I thought for sure, like, if your brother was producing Streisand that you would have been on the record. I didn't see your name on the record.

Right, right. So it wasn't, again, I'm not looking for gossip. It's just like, is it just everybody gets busy and kind of. No, I just think he had his own production thing he wanted to do. I think he wanted to expand. Right. You know, and work with other artists or the musicians and things like that. And, of course, we ended up working together again anyway.

Oh, sure. You know, but that's part for the course. Yeah, okay. I was just curious about that. When your brother, explain the sequence where your brother figures out he's got Parkinson's, and he kind of semi-retires from the stage. And you kind of walk me through that a little bit. Well, when he said he had Parkinson's, I didn't know where Parkinson's, really, to be honest, none of us knew.

And then he decided not to tour. But he still was involved, you know, because his ideas were still there. Yeah. He still was in the studio with us. You know what I mean? And he had it for a long time. You know, he had it for a long time. Yeah.

You know, and he did a great job. He didn't. Reached it a hell of a job. A hell of a job. I mean, he really, he laid it down, man. He laid it down. You know what I mean? He really, he stuck to his convictions.

That's what I love about him, you know, as a person, too. Yeah. You know, you know. And the thing about it is he was there to get all of the honors. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And of course, we got Kennedy Center honors, too. Yeah.

And I love the fact when L.O. Kuljay said, we love Earth and Fire and let us not forget, Maris. You know what I mean? You know, all the people from the South calling Maris. You know what I mean? So Reese got his, he did get his, you know what I mean. And he's getting it again because, you know, we have a documentary coming. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, man, at Questlove.

Oh, that's going to be amazing. It's going to be good. I saw the Sly one. I thought it was very impressed. Yeah, well, we're right after that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's really good.

I thought it was interesting with the Sly Doc on Questlove. I know Questlove just a little bit, you know. I met him through the years. And he's always been very, very kind to me. So as you know, sometimes when you know somebody, even just a little bit, you're willing to kind of take the ride, maybe because you think like, hey,

we're fellow soldiers in this game. Now he's moving in the dock space. I kind of want to see what he's got. Right. And he, you know, if you remember the, the, the title of the sly doc is like the, the burden of black genius or something like that. Okay. I don't know that.

Yeah, it's called like Slystone, the burden of black genius or something. Okay. And he talks, or at least the doc sort of, basically points, Sly has obviously had huge drug issues, but he said a lot of it was the expectations of the African American community on Sly.

Okay. It's an interesting thing to pose, you know what I mean? It's not something I would necessarily come to my own conclusion on, but watching Questlove frame it up in the documentary and really kind of push past, like, just call it the mythology of Sly.

Okay. But really say, do we really understand what Sly was going through in these years? Right. Do we really understand? And he paints a very particular picture of the pressures that Sly was getting from the African-American community at that time. Okay.

So I think I think Quest is probably right. Yeah. He probably was right about that. You know what I mean? Well, he's a, to me, sorry. He's a smart guy, Quest, you know. So to me, it's like he made me have to rethink Sly's whole story, but that's what I loved about the doc. because he did it.

He held a beautiful story, but he also made me to rethink about things. And I hope in a way he also does the same with you guys. It doesn't have to be about African-American issues or in music. It could be something that I wouldn't even understand. It might be about your relationships as brothers or something. But I saw that he was willing to take a bold step and say, do we really understand this person's story?

Yeah, well, the story that was, told about us was good. It was primarily about Maurice. Okay. Our relationship to him, you know, what he went through. Yeah. There's pictures of our mother, which, you know, you mean, and you look at those pictures, you're saying, oh, wow.

You know what I mean? And and we had a chance to show the peaks in the valleys, but he did a great job with it, you know what I mean? as a director. Yeah.

You know what I mean? We come out looking really good. Because that's what you wanted. Originally, at first, I was the last one to sign on. Were you skeptical for any particular reason? Well, I didn't want it to be a tell-all, tell-all. I see. Because sometimes these documentaries...

Yeah, in order to keep it moving. Keep it moving. It becomes more about drama than the drama actually was. Does that make sense? Yeah. And people, the one thing that I like about Earthen and Fires, that people come up to me and they thank me for making the music. They thank us for making all that great music.

I just didn't want anybody to come up with me and say, man, I didn't know y'all were like that. Right? I thought you guys were just there in front of the pyramid. Man, I don't know y'all like that. Wow. Right? Because, you know.

Yeah. You don't know. But Philip, Ralph and I, you know, one of the producers. Yeah. So that gives us some proud. Yeah. I mean, my sense is that there's a greater appreciation now for your brothers. Maurice, we're talking about, his particular brilliance, like what he brought to the tape.

Sure. I think that's pretty cool. I think if the doc had come out maybe, but we had one come out about 25 years ago. And it's much more mild. Although I like that one too. I thought it was great. You know what I mean? I didn't think we needed to do another one, you know what I mean?

But now everybody's into documentaries. Yeah. People know where the documentary is now. Well, I think the kind of like with music, the rise of how computers are used in editing have really blown the dock space open because you can put so much more information. Yes, that's true. The director of the David Bowie documentary, Moon Age Daydream. Brett Morgan told me that he worked with the Bowie estate and he had five million pieces of data.

Five million pictures, videos, interview clips. I mean, can imagine, I mean, 25 years ago, you didn't have that ability to put all that information in. That's right. You know, keyword. So you see, that's why documentaries have become so much more rich in terms of the videos and the pictures. That's true. Yeah. So as a fan, I'm excited to see.

this new one because I want to sort of... When I saw it, I said, oh, wow. We did a lot. I said, oh, wow. You know what I mean? When we saw the screening, you know. Yeah. But it was good.

You know, it was good, man. I'm happy to hear it. I was watching the other day I found your, like, clip of you working out or something. Oh, the other day? I follow you on social media or something. Okay. You came up and you were working out. I know you were doing like ballet.

Ballet, yeah, doing ballet. Yeah, and I'm working out. Yeah, and all that stuff. Yeah, that's right. I'm doing that stuff, yeah. Yeah. You know? I'm impressed that you're still doing it.

I mean, you're still out there. You're still rocking the people. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, let's say. Go ahead. What drives you? I mean, you know what I mean? I know it's a simple question, but I mean, you must love it.

But, I mean, like, what gets you out of bed? Well, I still like what I do. You know, and I'm grateful. And I still look good. You look great. I'm still healthy. You know, so I'm around great people, you know, great family, my wife, Shelly. And it's really good.

This just occurred to me just talking to you right now. I make this joke and maybe it makes sense to you. Sometimes I've had long, contentious years with rock critics, you know what I mean? Okay. Picky, picky rock critics. And sometimes I make a joke to them and I say, be careful because my children might take over the business. Right. And they kind of look at me like then.

I said, like, you understand what I'm saying? I'm not talking my kids are going to get in the business. my kids might take over this business, the pumpkins business. Right. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that's your plan, but I'm saying is, is there something that you feel like, wow, this family band? Like, it's we're still going.

Well, my son Warner is one of the producers of the doc. He's a great kid. You're not a kid anymore. Cabran, Marisa's son. one of the producers of the documentary, KB, you know what I mean, and a great kid, Leo the Lion like me, and in certain respects, Cabron has stepped up, and Warner has stepped up. You know what I mean? That's kind of what I was after.

This is such a beautiful family story. Yeah, well, I think, you know, they grew up around it. Yeah. And you don't even know they are. checking it out, you know, the way they are. Yeah. You know, and my wife, Shelly sings, the honeycomb. Our granddaughter, Nala, sings.

So they're around it. They've been around it a lot, you know, in terms of the music business. And then, you know, you wait on them to grow, too. You know what I mean? Yeah. The one thing that I've tried to do was just be supportive, kind of stay out of the way, and let them find their own space. Yeah.

Yeah. But do you feel that? I guess what I'm after is when you're standing on stage and I've been able to see you play and I understand the joy that you guys bring to the crowd. Right. I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real. Right. You know, you put on a great show, but it's coming from here.

Oh, yeah. It's a heart-centered thing that you guys do. That's right. It's not fake. Not even close to them. You got to just go out there and do it, man. Oh, yeah. Do you feel that your parents behind you, your brothers above you, do you feel all that?

I feel all of it. I feel sad to feel my best teacher around them. I feel Charles Stephanie, you know, and I feel all of those, excuse me, those great guys that brought me this far. Yeah. Yeah, man. I could feel that talking to you, you know. Yeah. It's beautiful.

You know, and it's a, you know, so once in a lifetime dream that you get for this. Hello? I know, man. You know, to do the, you know, to do what we do. I mean, it's not like. Please, we're so lucky. It's not even funny. You know, it's not, uh, you can't write this.

No. Two guys from Chicago, right? Yeah. Right, man. And we should take, I should take the L. Yeah. The L, the CTA. you know, yeah, man, I used to do that.

Now when I go to Chicago, I'm in my town car, you know what I mean? Like I am here. It's a little rough on the L right about now. Exactly, exactly. I saw where you put out this song in 2024 Superman. Right. About your brother. Yeah, and listen to it was beautiful.

But I saw where you call him your hero. Can you, can explain, I mean, it seems obvious, but I want to hear it from you. What made him your hero? Well, I wanted to be like him. You know, I admired him and still do. And if it hadn't had been for him, I wouldn't be sitting here. Yeah.

You know, he believed me. Yeah. You know what I mean? And... Because sometimes when guys are in bands, sometimes it's sisters too, but when guys are in bands with a brother who's gets the, you know, he's the front guy. Right. You know, he's the guy producing the records, all this stuff. Sometimes the brother gets almost like weirdly resentful.

You know, there's these legendary situations. You know, bands break up over silly family, really more so than the musical stuff. Right. It touches me that you love your brother that way, and it came through the band. Absolutely. And the thing about it is he gave me room to grow.

I mean, I had a chance to grow and not only be a great musician, but to become an adult. Yeah. And this thing called the music business. I mean, I'm an adult in the music business, which is, as you spoke of earlier, that it's not an easy business, you know, to be in, particularly over a long period of time, you know, the long... When I say, it's a marathon, not a sprint. That's right. That's right. But you have to be in it to know how far you got to go, you know. So, and I never would have had a chance to go to places and see the things I've seen.

Because I was 18 years old, man. I weighed a buck O'5 when I came out there, man. And we lived at Franklin. Okay. On Franklin Avenue. 70-47 Franklin. Okay. That's where Janice Jafflin was.

Okay. Yeah, man. That's where she died. Goodness. I didn't know that. Where we lived. And then all kind of musicians would come through there, Hendricks, all that guy, you know. And I met Jimmy Hendricks.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and people said, what was it like? I said, he had a list. He had a list. He had a list. What's up, man? He had a list. A couple more things.

Thank you for indulging me. I saw where Miles Davis said you were his all-time favorite band. Now that is a compliment. Yeah. Because Miles was like beyond picky. Yeah, he didn't like anybody. Miles was not. He didn't even like the guys he played with.

Right. Right. And, but Miles is always very nice to me when I, uh, his nephew Vince and I are very, very, very close. Oh, okay. Come back to Chicago. Right. And, uh, and, uh, went to Miles' house. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, because Miles lived here too after a while. Yeah. You know, everybody always migrates to California at a certain point. Here we are. Amen. And, um, uh, so, um, um, I would never say anything. Never say anything. And let him talk and things like that.

And I was in the kitchen talking. And I was with Vince standing up in the kitchen. Then we were talking. Then Miles said, well don't you all right? He threw us out. Well, don't you all right? But he would talk about contrary emotion.

Ah. Talk about harmony. Wow. Where you could put all the different notes. Yeah. And he would draw the notes out. Wow. And he said, you know, and if you know mathematics, you can work work music. You know, things like, you know. Yeah. Things like that.

Wow. Amazing. Two things left. Go ahead. I want to share a story with you. So I got to see you guys play at Chicago Theater. I think it was. It would have been about, gosh, maybe it was maybe 10 years ago. Okay. Maurice was still alive So if that gives you again Kind of another time frame And you know

I'm big celebrity in Chicago So I call for tickets I want to see the show And And I'm sitting on the aisle And my wife's sitting here She loves you guys too She's a lot younger

So I'm you know I actually I have two stories for you But I'm sorry So I'm sitting there And the show is just about to start, you know. It's just about to start. You can tell. And just as the show starting, or maybe the show had started, a young man comes, go ahead, go here, a young man comes and kind of kneels next to me. He says, are you Billy? And I'm like, oh, how are you doing,

you know? And he goes, oh, it's so nice to meet you and he starts talking to me. And I'm thinking, like, you know, show is about to start. And I'm trying to be nice, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if people are going to get mad because this kid's sitting here. And he goes, oh, my father's really a big fan of yours. I said, well, thank you, you know. And he goes, oh, I probably should tell you who I am. It was your nephew. Oh, it was KB.

And he said, I turn your music on to my dad. My dad really likes what you were doing. You want to talk about a compliment. Wow, because Cabrond was on the staff at the time. Yeah. Was that the night that the sound went out? You know what? I think it was. It went out for four songs.

Yeah. Yeah. The sound went out that night. Yeah. Yeah. Something blue. That's right. I remember.

But the sound went out that night. Yeah. So, you know, this is this young guy talking to me. And he's like, oh, Maurice is my dad. I mean, you want to talk about, like, blowing my mind. Because he's telling me how much his dad likes my music. Right. And he goes,

I probably should tell you who my dad is. And then he told me. Right. Well, KB knows about music, man. And he used to A&R over at Hollywood Records. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. Okay.

So one other story, if you'll indulge me. So knowing I was going to interview you, I was telling my kids, I got young kids 10, 7 and a baby. So I got the two 10, 7 in the car. And I go, oh, I'm going to interview this great musician, you know. He's from Chicago. And they said, well, play us one of his songs. So I put September on. And they go, oh, no, we know this song already, Dad.

I go, you know this song? Yeah, it's Earth, Win and Fire. I go, how do you know this song? Mom plays it in the car all the time. I mean, the beauty of music. Like, wow. I mean, my kids listen to you at the same age. I fell in love with you music.

Wow. Humbly. To me, as a dad. Well, that's the thing that makes it so beautiful. See, we've transcended all the media, all the noise, you know, and now everybody likes our music. Even if they don't know who we are, they like our music. And they've all been touched by it. And the nice thing about it, a lot of the great people, they've worked with us.

And we were able to get through the whole thing, you know, from artists, to executives, to other musicians, things like that, yes. Anything you want to add to all that? I know I've talked a lot, a lot of stuff. Well, I just want to say, man, it was a pleasure and an honor to be sitting here with you. Thank you. And I didn't want to wait. I said, yes, immediately.

I said, I got to do this. That's my man. You know what I mean? I said, just really, I love your work too, man. Thank you, really good. God bless you. God bless you. Thank you.