The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Vicki Lawrence | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

Revered comedienne Vicki Lawrence joins Billy Corgan to revisit her remarkable journey from an 18-year-old UCLA student to the youngest cast member of The Carol Burnett Show.Lawrence reveals what Carol Burnett told CBS executives when they wanted to replace her just six weeks into the series. She recalls Harvey Korman teaching her the craft of comedy and recalls memories of working with Rita Hayworth, Sammy Davis Jr., Dick Van Dyke, and Bob Mackie.She also shares the unlikely story behind “The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia” and explains how Mama evolved from a supporting character into a sitcom icon. Lawrence reflects on losing her husband just before their 50th anniversary and why classic television continues to comfort new generations.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I think the parents and the grandparents, they're passing those shows on because they were harmless. They were fun. It was, I always, it's kind of like you get to laugh for no good reason. It's a gentler time in sort of American comedy, and there's a sweetness to the thing that I particularly miss. We had so much fun on that show, and I have never been on another show like it. What do you think is the sort of the secret sauce on that, is somebody who saw it up close? I mean, we really never, I don't remember ever having a stressful day. You're an OG guy.

Vicki Lawrence, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Where do we begin on this crazy journey that you've taken through life? I know, I'm old. It's a long time ago. Last century. See, the thing is because my generation grew up with you on television, I think we assumed you were older than you were. But when you were on television, you were very young. I was. So?

18 when I started. Crazy. Yeah. So that takes us to the perfect moment in time. You were voted in high school most likely to succeed. I was busy in high school. I was very busy. I was a cheerleader.

I did all the choreography for all the dance numbers. I was in every singing group on campus. I was busy. Did you have the showbiz gene or you had the performer gene? Because it's kind of different or both. I don't, you know, I lived in Inglewood, close proximity to Hollywood. Yeah. But it never occurred to me to go into show business.

It never just, I mean, I guess I thought it would never, no. I was going to be a dental hygieneist. I know, I saw that. So did the young American singing group, whatever extravaganza that was, that came before Miss Fireball? Do I have the sequence right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started in the Young Americans my freshman year.

There was this, I entered new school and entered, the choir class and in walks this incredibly unattractive guy who starts talking about being on the road last summer with Johnny Mathis and what the heck is he doing?

Well, it turns out it was the Young Americans so the next time there were auditions I said, I can do that. And the Young Americans is still going, which is remarkable. Yeah, but you know, I feel like I got to do it in the really fun time. Well, you got to do it in the kind of the idyllic Disney kind of time where there was a movie,

or in the movie. Can you tell people what the young Americans was? Because it's hard to even understand what it would be. It still exists, but it seems anachronistic to today's society. It was all high schoolers. You had to have at least a B average. You had to be musical. You had to be musical. You had to pass like sort of a musical audition. And it was all students. And we had so much fun. I mean, we used to do the Hollywood Palace, Joggy Memories, kids. We did sing with Johnny Mathis. We got to do all the background vocals for Henry Mancini when he was at the Greek theater. That's cool.

I saw Andy Williams show. The Andy Williams Show. Yeah, it was really fun. Do you actually travel with that thing? Yeah. Yeah. How were your parents with all that? Did they sort of encourage the show biz thing?

Yeah, my mom did, for sure. Did she see something in you that made sense to her that you would want that? Is it just like a fun thing? You know, I don't know. I think she wanted to be a performer herself. The story she always told us was that she sang with a little, a small group of guys. I guess there were three guys and my mom. And they wanted to go off to New York and try to make it.

And she wanted to go. And her mom said, no, you're not going. So I think, yeah, she pushed a little bit. Did you play the Illinois State Penitentiary? I saw that. Yeah, that was in the movie. Yes. Just the idea of these fresh-faced California kids coming in.

I know. It was kind of trippy. Facing the hardened criminals. Yeah. Were you at the premiere on August 21st, 1967, which I believe was held like in Kansas or something? Was that the premiere for the movie? No, I don't think I was. The movie's online. which is kind of interesting.

I know. Have you gone and looked at it? I have gone and watched it. Because when I talk about Carol, people always ask me if I studied her. And I said, I never studied her at all. But I went back and looked at that documentary. And I was kind of geeky and gawky like a young Carol. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the craziest part of that whole thing is that that movie won an Oscar. Yes. And then they took it away. Yes. Which is like, couldn't they figure it out that the, The reason they took it away because technically the movie wasn't legal for the time that it won or something. Because of our cinematographer, I think.

Something where it came out or something. That's the story online is it came out and they realized later that it didn't fit the window for viability. So then they took the Oscar away from you guys. Oh, okay. I didn't know it was a window. I thought it was one of our camera men. Maybe that's the secret story. I don't know.

It was a moral issue. So yeah. So then there's this Miss Fireball. which, you know, is the, I love this word apocryphal. It's the kind of the apocryphal moment in your life because this whole sequence of events leads to you being on the Carol Burnett Show. So I know you've told that story 500 times. So if you want to tell the condensed version, I'm okay with it, but I just find it so interesting.

You know, the idea of fate is such an interesting thing. Yeah, I guess so. I used to enter everything. Every contest that came around, I don't, I guess I was bored. I don't know. I would just enter a contest. And so this one came up, and it was a fireman's ball, and they decided to call it a contest and maybe get some young girls to come out and dance and sing for them.

And I was one of eight girls. And our newspaper gal did a big article about two weeks prior to the contest. And in the newspaper, she said, I bore a striking resemblance to a young Carol Burnett. And my mom said, you need to write her a fan letter. And as I said, I had never studied her. I was aware of her. I saw her. I saw the TV version of Once Upon a Mattress that they did.

So I saw that. This is before the Carol Bernatra, she was kind of on television in little roles and guest things. On and off. She was kind of a known personality, but she wasn't yet like a star. No, she wasn't not a star. She had a brief series that she co-hosted with Bob Newhart called The Entertainers. and John Davidson was their little resident singer, and I had a crush on him, so I did watch that show a little bit,

but I wasn't watching Carol. He was handsome. I was watching John. Yeah. Anyway, so I, yeah, I wrote her a fan letter. I used to write a lot of fan letters, but it was always to all the cute young guys that were on television. Yeah.

I just, I told her I would like to meet her, didn't really ask for anything. Everybody says, I look like you, and I mailed it off to Carol. Did you include the little, the newspaper? Yes, I put the newspaper article in, so she could see that I wasn't nuts. And she managed to get the letter before the contest. Actually, her cousin was her secretary at the time. Cuzz, she always called her Cuzz.

She said, Cuzz called me in my office and said, you need to read this fan letter. And she took her, my dad's name out of the newspaper article, looked us up in the phone book, which nobody even knows about anymore. And she called me after school. That's a crazy story. And I know, it's pretty crazy. Because her whole life literally goes in this direction because of this one thing. Uh-huh. Yeah. And she had to talk her husband into coming to the contest. She said, I want to go see it. And she was very pregnant at the time as the story goes. Yeah. And her husband said, what is she? It was at It was at Hollywood Park.

It was at the racetrack, which is now SoFi Stadium. Wow. But back in the day, you know, it was a thoroughbred horse racing track. And her husband said to her on the way down, what the hell is she a jockey? And she said, just, I have a hunch. I want to go to this contest. I'm pregnant. Indulge me.

So she asked for two seats way in the back. She said, I will just sneak in. And then I'll call you in a couple of weeks. and we'll have lunch and discuss your career, sweetie. And I thought, okay, well, she's out of her mind. Yeah. It was the whole thing was just so surreal. Did you win Miss Fireball?

I did. Yeah. I did. And she crowned me. Okay. They asked her to come up and crown the winner. Oh, God, yes. Oh.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So amazing. And all we did, we went backstage after the contest and took some pictures with the mayor and I think maybe with the fire chief. and she said, I will be in touch, and that was it. That was November of my senior year. January of my senior year, I came home from school, and my mom said,

Carol, just had that baby. And she is at St. John's in Santa Monica. So, yeah, I guess my mom really did kind of push, didn't she? And I was on my way to a recording session with the Young Americans, so I said to the guy that I was ride-chairing with. I said, I want to stop by the hospital and say hi. And he said, you're not going to get in to see Carol Burnett. And I said, well, I'm going to try.

I know her married name. So I'm going to try. So we go into St. John's maternity ward, third floor. I go up. There's two nurses sitting behind the nurses station. It's very quiet. There's nothing going on. And as politely as I could, I said, I'm here to see Mrs. Hamilton.

And they looked at me and they said, oh, my God, you must be her sister, Chrissy. Where will you see her? Why will you see the baby? They took me right into her room. So, yeah. And nowadays, I would probably be arrested. Was Carol okay with you to search? She was fine.

I had dinner with her about a couple weeks ago, and her husband said, weren't you, how did you feel when this girl walked in your hospital room? Were you happy to see her? Carol said, I was. I was very happy to see her. And to be. I guess so. Not to be.

So Carol Burnett Show starts in 1967, runs through 78. There's other stuff that happens, but that's the same. actually the core show. 70 Emmy nominations, 125, 279 total episodes of that run. You're the only talent that lasted all 11 years.

And I didn't, because maybe because of the way it worked back then, I remember more so, of course, the Tim Conway being part of the show. But the original show, maybe because of the syndication, the original show was Lyle Wagner, U. Harvey Corman,

and Carol was the core cast. That was the original. And that was like up for like the first five, seven years, that was the kind of core cast of the show. Yeah. And I read somewhere Lyle was up for Batman, did get Batman? Lyle left in the seventh season to go be Wonder Woman's leading lady. But you know, he was, he lost Adam West for Batman. Did you know that?

Yes, but he was. It could have been a different history there with Batman. Well, I'll tell you, an interesting history about Lyle, who was, he was a class. guy. He after, he left the Burnett show

and we worked at CBS so the whole everything was under one roof. Your dressing rooms is a commissary. Yes. Which is now

going to be condos now or something right? I hope not. I hope they don't take it away. I did something there recently. I think they still

kind of use it. They're dancing with the stars is there. Yeah. But isn't the plan they're going to turn into like all condos or something? Well, I've heard that.

Yeah. I hope they don't tear it down. So I feel like it's kind of. No, I think they're not to tear it down. I think the idea is it won't be a TV thing anymore per se. They're going to make the studio condos? Something like that. Worst elevator in the world. People are not going to like it. Anyway, he went over to Universal to do Wonder Woman, and it's a film lot, so he had a trailer,

which was outside of the stage. And he went to his bosses and said, I really, I hate that trailer. if I were to design my own trailer and use it, would you, would you rent it from me? And they said, sure, no problem. And that's how Starwagon started. Oh, he started that. He is Starwagons. Wow. Wagons with 2 Gs, just like Wagoner.

And, yeah, you see them everywhere. Richer than hell. I've been in a star wagon a few times. Left his business to his sons who run it. Oh, God bless. Yeah. There's so many. it strikes me because I get these kind of questions where it's like

everybody has their specific memories and I'm not assuming it's all a blur for you but I mean a lot of it's got to be a blur with all that work. Yeah. Is that fair? I mean, yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of things people mention to you and you think like I kind of remember that. Yeah, but it's another lifetime, really. That's true.

Yeah. So I guess my point of entry is like, I mean, here you are. You're not, I mean, you basically were plucked out of high school essentially, right? Were you still in high school when you started on the show? I was. I met her November of my senior year. That's crazy. And I started on the show the same fall that I started at UCLA. So like, boom.

And they said, you may go to college, but we need you here at the studio at seven. Or I'm sorry, at 10, every day. Yeah. And so I took every course you could take at seven or eight or nine o'clock. And then I was off to the school. I really had no college life. Yeah. But how did you, gosh, I don't, I don't.

I don't know how everybody projects their own feelings into these things. So I'm asking you, obviously. But it's like, how did it feel as suddenly you're on national television? Mizarre. I think I would watch the episodes like that when they were on the air. Yeah. It was like watching a horrible home movie to me. Yeah.

I was kind of geeky and awkward. What do you think? What do you think, I mean, besides the implication of physical resemblance, What do you think Carol saw in you? Something, right? I have no idea. I mean, I tell her all the time. I thank you for my life.

Really? And she says, it would have happened anyway, sweetie. There is a faded feeling to the whole thing, for sure. Yeah. I know that the suits came down about six weeks into the Burnett show and said, she's really rough. Do you think maybe we could look for another kid? And she said, she's a diamond in the rough.

And we're keeping her. That's so humbling. I know. Wow. Yeah. The one thing that... She never told me that either. My grandmother loved your show.

So I remember, you know, sometimes when somebody in your family loves something, you kind of, you pay different attention. And I really loved my grandmother. She had cool taste. So I remember watching the show and trying to understand what she loved about it. And she loved the family dynamics because she was Southern, even I think the part of that resonated with her. But the thing that really sticks out in my mind when I sort of just have a kind of emotional resonance on it is like, for lack of a better word, there was like a sisterhood between you two. You know what I mean? Like it's obviously her show, but you're not treated or you don't feel like it's her and then you.

Well, I did. No, but I'm saying that I think she was kind of on a pedestal for a lot of years. But the vibe this way is kind of an evenness. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like a kid's sister. Yes, and I, so whether it was brilliance or guile or all of the above or just affection, she, you come off in the show as part of her world. That always came across, no matter the circumstance.

So that's really beautiful to me because that's, that's something beyond just like seeing some talent in you. Yeah. And that's why I was hired was to play her kid sister. Yeah. Originally. Yeah. Which is true to her story. She took her kid sister to New York.

Yeah. So as the show goes on, do you feel like you gain more, not power or agency? Did they ask you more your opinion? Or did you always feel like I just got to kind of be cool? I don't think they ever asked for my opinion. And I was so shy if you could get me to say hi, it was a miracle. And her husband was the producer. Executive producer.

So obviously it's her world too. Yeah. The first thing they let me do outside of playing her sister was a sketch we did. think in the second season, and it was a takeoff of the newlywed game. And I was married to one of our crazy-looking, silly little writers. And Carol was married to the guest star, and I think Harvey was married to somebody else. And it was a take-off on that game. And I came up with his character for that sketch, was really stupid. And she kind of became a staple of mine. And I think they're thinking, was if she screws it up, she's not going to mess up the whole sketch because it was a very

tiny little part. And if she's good, it's a stepping stone. I really am pretty sure that's what they thought. Wow. And then you're with, obviously, like I said, Conway was appearing occasionally, but later he becomes a regular. And of course, that cast is the one that everybody fixates on, the four of you. If you could just talk a little bit about their comedic gifts because like those are like ace you know improv guys their ability to improvises even if you like like blazing saddles that harvey's on it's like there's obviously a lot of improv going on yeah and the timing and the i think well they were both brilliant in their own way harvey was classically trained uh as an actor and he took his comedy very very seriously

with a serious business. And, you know, Carol had a show to run. So it was Harvey who took me under his wing, and I decided to teach me to be a comedian. Can you just, you can be simple about it if you want. But like, what's something you feel like he showed you that you were like, oh, you know. Well, he would help me with accents, with dialects, with props. So he was some of your trusted guy to go to where he could tell you, hey. Yeah, he did.

Wow. When I first started, he said, forgets. stage right and stage left, you can't even find the toilet. So I think it was train me or kill me. Yeah. And he, yeah, he was like having a private tutor, really. So dialects, props, he would explain to me who I was in the movie takeoffs because half the time I didn't know. Yeah.

Yeah, I really credit Harvey with teaching me a lot. Yeah. And in the history of, I guess, American entertainment, you know, you. You know, Carol is now ascended to that Lucille Ball level of like, I think it takes America a while to realize that the great comedians, the value that they have in our culture. And there haven't been a lot of them, which is kind of weird if you think about it,

because there should be more. As somebody who still is with her friend and compatriot, but also somebody who worked closely with her, what did you see about her gifts that sort of odds you? because this way, as somebody watching, family, watching, you know, whatever you guys were on, I remember watching the show live, right? So, you know, the sense was she was like kind of an every woman or something, for lack of a better way to put it. Like, you felt like he knew her. I think, yes, I think people really.

Which is kind of, Lucy had the same thing. You felt like everybody knew like a Lucy, you know, and it's like there's a beauty there and a sort of a gift there, but it's. And they're still on TV, both of them. I mean, if you think back to... How crazy is that? Older comedians that we loved, they're not around as much as Lucy and Carol are still around. But that's what I'm saying. It's something...

I don't know what it is. I mean, I'm waxing poetic, but it seems harder to become a, like a top-level comedian in our culture. But the ones that do, we never let go of them. Right. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's just some deeper mother complex or something, you know? or maybe it's the way America projects on women in the culture. Maybe it's the memories because, I mean, they were both so.

You know, when I was first on the show and I didn't have a lot to do, I would get out of the studio much quicker than Carol ever would. And her deal was every Friday night after the taping, she would take her guest star to Chasance for dinner. She and her husband and the star and whoever the spouse was. And I would run out ahead of them. Nobody knew who I was, so nobody cared. And I would sit on the hood of my car in the parking lot and watch them come out of the artist's entrance.

And it was always interesting to me. I said to Carol one time, why does everybody call you Carol? But if it's a movie star, it's Miss Hayworth or who else? Yeah, Miss Turner. Ms. Swanson, Miss Turner. And she said, because, sweetie, they are sitting in bed watching you with a beer. and they know you. You're in their house.

So you're a friend. Yeah. It's so interesting to me. Yeah. So she's much more approachable than a movie star. As a great comedian yourself, is it her timing? Is it her ability?

Like is she, because sometimes like Lucy, she was okay with being the butt of the joke. Like, what do you think is the sort of the secret sauce on that? Is somebody who saw it up close? I, well, I think that's who she felt she was for a lot of years. Kind of the butt of the joke.

Yeah, a lot. And when Lyle was first on the show, he was hired because he was handsome and because he had kind of a cute little sense of humor. Yeah. And that she was going to be the gawky, you know, falling all over him, which she hated, I know, but I think that's kind of, that was kind of her gig for a while. Yeah, I remember seeing a clip of her.

Before Carol Burnett show, maybe it's like she's on Ed Sullivan or something. She's playing this really gawky, like it's all kind of really overdone. Uh-huh. And you're kind of like, because obviously she got rid of that later. She would play that, but it was for comedy. Right. But they're almost like her personality was like the gawky kid next door or something. Yeah.

Yeah. So. And I think, I mean, I think you really do feel how, how sweet of a person she is. I feel like, I, I get that through the TV. I think. And my grandmother loved her, like loved her. Like, she thought of her like a family member. Yeah.

She just loved her. It was like this, that's what I'm saying when you're a kid and you're like, her, like. Why her? Yeah, why her? Like, what is it? What am I missing? You know what I mean?

And as you get older, you start to appreciate. Yes, but I'm saying it's a gift because not everybody has that. Right. Like, I think I'm a nice person, but I meet people all the time to tell me, how I'm so intimidated by you or because they saw you in a video or something. You're like, I'm just... But a music video is a little less personal. Sure.

All I'm trying to say is, is like, you know, there's not everybody, I work in professional wrestling, not that you need to know that, but not everybody who's a bad guy is a bad guy in real life. And not everybody is a good guy in wrestling is a good guy in real life. Right. Sometimes the way the public receives you as a personality. I think also, she was talked into by her... manager or somebody said, you need to go out dressed beautifully as you and let the audience get to know you. You need to do questions and answers. And I think that was probably very pivotal because you really got to see who Carol really was in that segment before she dressed up,

which she loved to do. I love old Hollywood, so you have to indulge me here for a second. Okay. And the list of guests on the Carol Burnett show was... I actually listened to your podcast. Oh, thank you. And I was surprised how much of old Hollywood and old entertainment you know about. Love it. You're a child, you know. Well, we'll see in about one year. But I just, I just, because I love, you know, I was a latchkey kid.

So television was everything in our world growing up in the 70s. So that's where it's even a blur. Because I know I saw the show live. I remember watching it live. But I probably saw the show more times in reruns and. you know what I mean like TV gets like a blur back then because it was like you come home from school and whatever it was on type of right but I love that there's this there's certain times in American culture and the Carol Burnett show is one of those things where it's it's this intersection of old Hollywood and like 70s TV I mean just this partial list of whoever's on the show just indulge me just indulge me just like Jim neighbor Steve Lawrence Ken Berry Mickey Rooney eat gourmet Mel Torme Bobby Gentry Leonard Nimoy Jerry Lewis Bernadette Peters

Olivia De Havillan Lana Turner Lucille Ball Rita Hayworth Dinah Shore Cass Elliott Scott Huddson Don Rickles

Gloria Swanson Elephist Cheryl Joan Rivers Phyllis Diller Betty Grable Sid Caesar Jonathan Winters Robert Gouley

Bob Hope Peggy Lee Betty White of course who became more of a regular over time Liza

yeah who's just put out a book God bless her and turned 80 and Dick Van Dyke who at some point became like a cast member for a short period of time.

I mean, just that list is like, that's a who's who of like our crazy world. I often say I feel like I got to touch the golden age of Hollywood. Yeah. So when a guest star would come, was it dependent on the star? Some people were more social.

Some people had their crew around them, and you'd meet them on the stage, and that was it. Does anybody stick out in your mind that you at least felt you had some, a moment or connection with that you hold on to fondly? Well, I remember when Rita Hayworth was on, and I mean, she was gorgeous, and I certainly knew who she was before she was on. Yeah. And she and Carol did a little charwoman duet together as I think it was the finale of the show.

Yeah. And I was standing in the rehearsal hall one afternoon. I think it was Wednesday, so it was before run through. So they had been rehearsing for a couple of days, and they did that little number. And it finished, and Rita Hayworth came over and grabbed me by the shoulders and said, I don't know how you do this every week. And I just wanted to say, Ms. Hayworth, get a grip. You ran up and down the stairs with Fred Astaire.

But, of course, they had three weeks to rehearse it. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Gosh, who else? Sammy Davis Jr. Oh, okay. He, we finished run-through on Wednesday.

We would rehearse Monday, Tuesday, have a run-through Wednesday, then Thursday and Friday we're on the stage. When you did the run-through, was it just basically producers, writers kind of sitting there? Well, it wasn't just basically. It was nerve-wracking. I mean, it was frightening. Yeah. No costumes, very few props. Oh, I see.

Bright lights, folding chairs. Okay. Not a crap load of laughter, really. Very serious. Take notes, you know? I don't have a ton of experience in this form of the art, but I have noticed that people who write jokes tend not to laugh. Unless you deliver it.

Yeah, no, they don't laugh. And they want it delivered perfectly. Well, like we're in Howie Mandel's building. And it's like it's really hard to make Howie Mandel laugh. Really? Yeah. Oh, I love to laugh. Well, you're different.

That's why you're here on the show. No, because I've, you know, I've known a few professional comedians in my life, and it's like they just don't laugh. they just don't laugh, at least in my estimation. Maybe you were around nicer people, I don't know. Well, I was around very nice people. Yeah. Anyway, Sammy Davis Jr., who had his little portable bar

that he would bring in with him every day. It was like a foldout. It was a whole setup. Anyway, he invited us all down to the stage after the run through the week he was on. He had his orchestra there, and he did his entire show for us. That was kind of...

That's pretty cool. Amazing. Great entertainer, wow. Yeah. Who else? Well, I had crushes on a lot of people. I had a crush on John Davidson. I had terrible crush on Steve Martin.

But to the point where I was too scared to even say hi. I was very shy. Very shy. Insurance isn't one size fits all. And shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressives name your price tool for years. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget.

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Aggressive casualty insurance company affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. That's so interesting. Yeah. You don't come off as shy. I don't think I am so much anymore. Yeah. But even in the show, you didn't come up shy.

Is it if the lights go on and you kind of, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I'm sure there's moments. I don't know, I'm projecting my own showbiz experience. But like sometimes I walk on stage and I think, what the hell am I doing here? and then the lights go on and then something Why do that too? Kind of like you're like something.

Okay, God bless. I'm saying something flicks on in my brain. I'm like, oh, I'm in show business. Like, here we go. Yeah, and when you hear your name, when you actually hear people say, Vicki Lawrence in a celebrity context, I'm like, what is Vicki Lawrence?

How did Vicki Lawrence become? How do people know that? Yeah. And it sounds bizarre to me. My own name does. Yeah, and it's your real name. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about back to Ms. Hayworth's comment, the grind of doing a show like that?

Was not a grind at all. Okay. Can you tell me why it wasn't a grind? We had so much fun on that show. And I have never been on another show like it. Well, Mama's family was like that. Because I was lucky enough to take much of the staff with me to Mama's family. But the show ran like a top because Carol wanted to be home every night to have dinner with their kids. And she wanted to see them off to school. So rehearsals was start at 10 for us, and I think the dancers may have started earlier, but we started at 10. And if the schedule said you were going to be done at 3 p.m., you could make an appointment for 3.30 and keep it.

And that does not happen in show business at all, ever. That's unusual. Yeah. So that, it meant the show ran like a top. So how much memorization were you expected to do? I saw this interesting thing where you all had different colored cue cards. What was your color? I think I was green, I think, but I don't really remember.

Yeah. It was either green or blue. Yeah. So how much memorization versus Cucart reading? Pretty well memorized, unless they would change a joke at the last minute. Do you have a good natural memory? Once I get something on its feet, I can memorize. Oh, okay, yeah.

I have a very hard time just memorizing a script and doing it like that. But once I associate with props or where I am on the stage, very easy for me to learn. Tape on Friday? Is that accurate? We did, yeah. So if you did the run-through on Wednesday, was it another rehearsal day on Thursday? Thursday was blocking, camera blocking. Okay.

Just all the boring. Kind of tedious. Yeah. No more run-through. And then Friday, two run-throughs. We do a dress rehearsal in the morning. Yeah. And then we did two shows.

The first one was called the dress rehearsal. So basically three run-thers on the first- grew up. Three run-throughs on the Friday. Is that accurate? I'm just trying to understand. I'm just curious about all this stuff. We would do a dress rehearsal in the morning, like maybe from 10 to noon.

You'd have a good long break. In costume? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then you'd have a nice break. And then we did an afternoon show in front of one audience. Yeah.

They'd clear that out, bring in another audience, and we would do a second show. And then they would edit between the two. But pretty much it went like a live show. Yeah. Unless you had to stop for a huge set change. or huge costume change. And you didn't keep Carol waiting. And she was fast.

She was fat. I mean, she worries to death about the audience. Oh, I see. She doesn't want them to get bored. She wants them to really have a good time. Yeah. And so you've got to keep it moving. So in a taping window, it's an hour show.

So the whole show time is probably like 45, 50 minutes. Yeah. So is it about so. Probably took us closer to 75 to 90 minutes to do the show. and technical issues and stuff like that. Once you were in this situation where now you have a gig and you're on the show and you're sort of ensconced in that world, how did your parents sort of feel about you this part of your life?

I know they were proud. I think my mom got maybe a little bit jealous because she wanted to be in show business, so she really pushed. She took me to all the dance classes. She pushed me into musicals. In high school, she took me to every show that ever came to L.A. And, I mean, I remember seeing, I think we saw Mary Martin and Peter Pan. I know I saw Gwen Burden and Sweet Charity.

Like, amazing shows. And I would always get so sad at the intermission. My mom would always say, why? I said, because it's going to end soon. Aw. So obviously, I love it. loved showbass, just never knew that it was something I would do. But I think they were, my dad would come to the show quite often. Yeah. Bob Mackey has become kind of this legend. Yeah, he has.

You know, more so associated with Cher, but can you just talk a little bit about Bob Mackey? Because it's kind of, it's a fascinating thing where it's like maybe somebody who was associated with more commercial work or television work, his legend has sort of grown over time. Yeah, it has. And now, like I even see. recently maybe it was one of the pop stars like wore like a Bob Mackey original that shared owned or like it's become kind of, his name has kind of come back up

Yeah, they're recycling a lot of his old costumes. Yeah. Did you, did you, I mean, you must have worked with him, but he wasn't necessarily designing, uh, he was more, the, the looks were for, for Carol, right, these kind of. The gowns? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever get a gown? You never Bob? I did. I got a few. Not like Carol.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I got a few and you could always borrow things. He wasn't a whole lot older than me when the Burnett show started. And he was one of the people, one of the very few people that would sit next to me in the audience and we'd talk about showbiz. And I think he grew up somewhere kind of near where I did. So he was really nice to talk to him. He was adorable back then, too. But yeah, he would just sit and, you know, make me comfortable.

Yeah. Yeah, I just think it's... Because there weren't young people on my show. Yeah. I was kind of a loner. Yeah. Well, and the real joke is you end up playing a woman who's older than all of them. Mm-hmm.

We're getting to her in a second. How did you, did you feel famous? Did you get recognized? I mean... I did get recognized, but I didn't feel famous. I got together with an old girlfriend after the show was on the air. She hadn't been on long.

And we decided to go back to Inglewood where we went to high school and go to all of our old haunts and we were sitting in a Bob's big boy, I think it was. And this young girl came over to the table and said, could I get your autograph? And my girlfriend said, after she left, said, You've changed.

To you? Yeah. I said, I don't change. I'm me. Yeah, yeah. It's all still the same. Hello, I'm still here. But it's different to everybody when all of a sudden people know you. Yeah.

So, yeah, I feel like I lost a few friends. Really? Mm-hmm. Well, I think a lot of the kids and the young Americans were jealous that, why her? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can relate. I mean, I dealt with some really talented kids in there. Yeah, but I mean, I dealt with a similar thing when my band got success. Well, there were a lot of musicians in Chicago where they're like, like, why him?

Why you? Yeah, it was kind of a weird feeling because you're like, people weren't happy for you. Yeah, well, not if they're trying to get there as well. Yeah, but it's like somehow you winning, it's them losing, but, you know, I mean, and somehow you're supposed to feel bad about that. In some cases, people would come and get mad, like, you were supposed to help them? Did you ever get that where people expect you to, like, make a call for them? Or do you ever get that?

No, I don't think I ever got that. Yeah. Yeah. People, but people, I mean, what we're sharing is people's reaction to success or fame is, can be totally. Because you change in their eyes. Yeah, and you're like saying, I'm like, still here, you know. Yeah, it's still me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like before we start taping, we just sat down and talked, you and your son and had a nice conversation. I mean, we're just three normal people. Right. Well, no, we're normal. I'll let you be the judge of that. So as I told you, but before we started taping, I had the seven-inch and nights went out. Like the night the lights went out in Georgia. Now, your first husband wrote this song?

He did. We were married for like 10 minutes. It really, it was less than a year that we were married. It was a horrible mistake from the get-go, I think. What was the attraction? Because, you know, was he a musician? Well, he was a songwriter? Was he a musician?

the guitar. So that's your first mistake. Thank God he wasn't a drummer because it only gets worse from there. Oh, does it? Okay. Well, yeah, he played the guitar. He wrote songs. He was on the Jimmy Rogers Summer Show because back in the day, you used to do 22, 24 weeks. Yeah. This is Jimmy Rogers the singer? Yeah. And then there were 13 weeks of... Was that the Jimmy Rogers that got shot in the throat? Do you know that whole thing? No. I think if it was here like that, that's It's the guy. Oh.

See, if it was in real life, we'd get out the phone and Google, but I believe Jimmy Rogers was the one that got shot in the throat. Who shot him? If it's the person I'm thinking of, he was kind of a singer? He was a pop singer, right? Jimmy Rogers? Yeah. A little bit country, but kind of pop. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. If this guy I'm thinking of, he was a huge star. Yeah? And there was something happened where, and it was always like one of these, I'm probably talking about the wrong person, but it's still interesting to talk about. The guy I'm talking about, I think it's Jimmy Rogers, was he pulled up somewhere and a guy walked up, according to his stories, guy just shot him in the throat. People believed it was like a mob thing or a gambling debt thing. So he still sang after that, but he was never quite the same and it kind of destroyed his career.

Okay. That's why I was asking, if it was that, Jimmy Rogers. Jeez, I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, back to your song. Anyway, they always did a summer replacement show for the big shows that were on the air. and Bobby was a guest on the Jimmy Rogers show. So that's how I met him.

Yeah. It was very charming, very Southern. Well, musicians, you know, they, we have a way. Very charming. And the Southern was like, maybe it's just a guy with an accent. I think girls are always attracted to guys with accents. I've seen it with English guys. You know, they can't play the guitar for sure, but if they can talk with that accent, the girls are.

Yeah. Did you, I know you said you entered lots of contests, but I mean, did you consider yourself a singer? I mean, did you suddenly want a recording career? I never wanted a recording career, but I sang a lot in high school. I was in every choral group that was on campus. Because you have a good natural singing voice. Like it's, you know, a lot of times when people are like an actor and they do an album, you can tell they're not really a singer.

I mean, they can sing, but they're not, like you sound like a professional singer. Like, it just must come naturally to you. Well, I sang a lot with the Young America Yeah, oh, that's true right I sang in all the groups on campus So was it his idea that you do a record? No, he used to Usually when we went back to Nashville

He'd go in a little studio and demo anything he had written And he was demoing one night And I said, what about Georgia? Because I liked it. He said, I hate that song. And I said, I think that song is a hit. Wow. And he said, well, then why don't you?

don't you do the demo. So I was left to my own devices. I think there was like one guitar player. And we did the demo. And took it out, brought it out to Hollywood. His producer at the time was Snuff Garrett. Okay. I feel like I know that name, but I don't know how. Well, he was, boy, back in the day, he was like Bobby Rydell. He was Gene. Who's the guy that did 100 pounds of Clay Gene? I can't remember his last name. Oh. Gene. We need the Google.

Yes. Who else did he do? A lot of the... We're not thinking of Tennessee or any Ford. No, no, no. Gene? Gene. No.

Anyway, he produced a lot of... He produced Cher. He was early Cher, like Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves. Okay, which you covered, by the way. Halfbreed. I saw that. Yeah, well, probably because he had the publishing. I don't know.

Don't you love the entertainment business? I thought maybe it's because you liked the song. Oh, no, not really. Anyway, he liked Georgia. He said, I think this could be a hit. And he tried to give it to everybody. Nobody wanted it because they all said it's going to offend the southern half of the country. And no.

It has to be rewritten. Well, Bobby didn't like it anyway. So he was like, oh, we re-rereview. writing it thing. I never liked it to begin with. So finally, after trying, he sent it to Liza Minnelli first because he said, I want to work with her. And I said, she's so not right for this song. There's an alternate universe. Yeah. Yeah. And he's, of course, I played it for share. And Sonny said, no. I don't think she ever got to hear it. He said, no, it's going to offend the sound. So funny, right? Well, yeah, especially when you've done half-breed.

and gypsy tramps and thieves. Sure, yeah. She'd already offended the half-breeds and the gypsies and the thames, yes. So Snuff literally just finally threw up his hands and said, let's just go in the studio and do it with Vicky. So did you just come out as a single first? So the album followed when she had the success with the single? Yes.

I, well, I lobbied long and hard for the guy that arranged that song. because Snuff had an arranger that he used all the time, and to me, a lot of his stuff all sounded alike. Yeah. And it was a little too cutesy for me. Okay, so who was your guy? I wanted Artie Butler, because he had some stuff on the charts that I loved.

Okay. And, boy, I really had to fight for him, and finally Snuff gave in. And he's really the one who changed it from the major. It was major. It was very, I think Bobby knew three chords. basically. So it was very major sounding. Already arranged it so that it all of a sudden sounded very minor and a little spooky.

See, that's when we first met here earlier today, I said that record always creep me out. Yeah. There was something spooky about it. Yeah, that was already. I remember hearing on the radio and just like whenever it came on, it had this vibe. Yeah. It's a good arrangement. It's goth, really, at the end of the day. You're an OG goth.

And he and Snuff did not get along. Yeah. So once the thing became a hit, which took like eight months, Snuff said, you have a contract. Now I'm going through a divorce. Because when the record started getting big, Bobby started getting jealous because people would call and want an interview with Vicky, and he'd be going, well, what about me?

I'm the one of the rugging thing. So it was sort of the ultimate demise of an already doomed marriage. And there's your follow. a book. Yeah. So Snuff said, you have a contract. I'm going to sue you

if you don't do an album before me. Had you signed a contract? I didn't want, yeah, I didn't want to do an album. Oh, so you were kind of forced to because now I'm going through a divorce. I just want to go back to the Carol Burnett show and have fun.

Yeah. So I had to, I, and with the old arranger, now we're back with the old arranger. Oh, I see. And it occurred to me that if you've got a winning team, you don't split them up.

No, in Hollywood, you want to ruin what you've just created. Yeah, no, so I'm not really proud of that album. Yeah. Artie never knew what happened. He didn't know that snuff didn't like him, and I don't talk to him a couple of years ago and said, would you like to hear the real story? Number one in U.S. in Canada, number one song. I never had a number one song. Australia.

Two million copies. Did you do any touring on the success? Touring, no. No, I went back to work on the Burnett Show. Yeah. I was a full-time job. That's like, I was trying because, you know, doing research on the show, sometimes there's things that just don't get answered in the information you have,

which was like, I was like, did you want a recording career? Did you, you know, it's like, so you're answering my question. It wasn't a particular aspiration you had. No, it was not. So the only thing I did were, you know, the shows that you did, like Dick Clark and. Yeah, there's some, there's some awkward clip. Midnight, what was the midnight? Did you do Midnight special?

Special, yeah. Oh, I got to find that clue. There are some pretty funny. Well, there's one clip where some reason you're standing on a beach. That was Dick Clark. I don't know. He probably didn't want to leave home because he lived out there. I mean, you're standing on a really sunny beach.

There are people like playing football behind you. You're singing about a murder in Georgia. Yes. And you're wearing kind of like a summer dress, right? And it's so awkward. Yes. Did you ever see, just to maybe make you laugh, it must have been another Dick Clark show where the doors had to do a song

the beach. Same type of situation with kids around. Yeah. And Jim Morrison no-showed. Oh, really? So Jim Morrison's cousin got up and pretended to be Jim Morrison. It's a mimed clip. So it's Jim Morrison's cousin pretending to be Jim Morrison on one of those beach type of shows.

Oh, funny. Yeah. And he kind of doesn't, he kind of purposely doesn't, he turns his back a lot. Uh-huh. Anyway, if you're bored sometime. Okay. We'll get off the recording career in a second. But I just, I found a couple curiosities.

In 1976, you recorded there's a gun still smoking in Nashville. Was it like the follow up on the gun theme? Was it supposed to be a sequel? I don't know. I thought it was, I thought this isn't, I thought it was for sure going to be a sequel. You know what I mean? No, I don't think it was at all. Because maybe Bobby Gentry, at some point, didn't she almost do like a follow-up to Billy?

To O'Dilley Joe? I think she did some kind of like on a sequel. Or there's another song that she did that's so like Billy Joe that you think it's, but it's not. Fancy? I remember Fancy. Fancy's pretty good. Yeah. I like that.

And then I hope you laugh with me. There's a disco album. Well, that was a... Newborn woman? Yes. That was a friend of ours. This is after I'm married to my real husband. But you had success with it.

Not much. Not a lot. Still, something. It has its own Wikipedia entry. I did not want to do it in the disco album, but he really wanted to, and he was a friend, so I said, okay, all right. Yeah. I have to say. The other thing that I did that I loved doing was I sang a song on the soundtrack of a movie.

That was fun. I didn't find that. What was that? Yeah. It was a movie called Grasshopper. Okay. Jack Olympa Sette was the star. I don't think the movie did terribly well, but it was just kind of cool.

to know that you're singing part of a soundtrack. Yeah. Sorry. I just had a moment. Also a song that Bobby wrote. Really? Yeah. Was it around that same time?

Yeah. How did you find out that the... I know there were other kind of specials in summer runs of the Carol Burnett show, but like, let's call it the core show that ran to 78. How did you find out that that... I know there was a rating issue, ratings issues, and can you just...

When she left? Well, there's just... however you want to take it. It's like the show ends at some point. She decided to end it. Okay, okay. Were the ratings poor or she was just over it? I never paid attention to the ratings too much.

But the last year, ABC lured Harvey away. Do you have his own show type of thing? Well, they told him who was going to. He never did. They told him. So they kind of stole him. You know what, I remember that. Carol invited Dick Van Dyke to do the last season.

Yeah. And that was a genius, but I heard Carol in an interview say that she didn't feel the writers ever really wrote for Dick. They were still writing for Harvey. I see. So they didn't feel like he got a fair shot last season. And I'm sure the ratings did take, probably took a dip, although I think everybody loves him to death. Yeah. But she's ultimately the one that said, I think we're going to leave while we're on time.

Yeah. I mean, as we sit here, Dick Van Dyke's still alive, 100 and going. And what a nice man. Yeah. So sweet. He, of course, is it part of that famous sketch that you guys did, the, is the password or the elephant? It was the password, the elephant story, yes. With your famous blooper.

Yeah. Did you, say, so in 1978, you would have been like, what, like 27 years old or something like that, right? Were you like ready to move on? You had other things you wanted to. Like, where were you at career brain-wise? I was sad because doing the show was so much fun. I mean, we really never, I don't remember ever having a stressful day. That's so amazing.

We just had a good time because that's what Carol was about. Yeah. And I really think it really does trickle down from the top. However that person behaves. I think that's the way the company runs. Yeah. And Harvey used to tell me all the day. time, this doesn't happen in real showbiz, Vic.

Will you get out there in the real world? Well, the beautiful thing is people, it still comes across on the camera. The camaraderie is real. Yeah. You know? Yeah, because he'd just come off the Danny Kaye show when he came on our show. Okay. And I was in love with Danny Kay.

And Harvey said, if there was a funny joke that you had, the sketch would be rewritten so that Danny got the joke. That didn't happen on the Burnett show. On the Burnett show, if you were doing something, something funny, she'd be the first person out of her dressing room on the side standing with the audience laughing. She said, I want this to be an ensemble. And she was totally encouraging of any of us doing something funny. That's amazing. Yeah. Are you, it's not a projection, I hope, but it seems to me there's, one of the reasons I think the show is so fondly remembered is it's a

gentler time in sort of American comedy. And there's a sweetness to the thing that I particularly miss. And I'm shocked that there's nothing in our culture that I can even remotely think of that feels that way. No, not anymore. It's probably why it's doing so well in syndication. And I'll tell you what, during the pandemic, I've never gotten so much fan mail in my life. And I don't know it could have been that people decided to start a new hobby. Because it seems now like the selfie is the new autograph. Yeah. But I was getting letters and they wanted pictures and autographs.

So I thought, well, maybe that's what they're doing in their COVID time. Or they're watching the old shows because they were so comforting. I think that's exactly what it is. Yeah. You know the whole concept of fast channels? Do you know about that? No. Fast channels are the, like, it started with the me TVs, but now it's extended into the digital

realm where it's like they'll just be the Carol Burnett show on a network. It has its own channel. Oh, okay, yeah. And it's 24 hours a day. That's a fast channel. And a lot of those shows, because I work in television, too, they're making a ton of money because people just put them on and it's like it's digital wallpaper. They just want to be comforted by something familiar that they feel good about. So it makes total sense to me that that show would continue in perpetuity because there's a vibe there that's just, it's not, it's shocking to me.

because I got three kids, 10, 7, and a baby. So, you know, they're entering this. Cut your hands full. Very much. Very much so. Yes, I was, the baby likes to call me on FaceTime. That's an interesting one. I pick up the phone.

Of course, it's my wife, and it's the baby walking through the house talking to be in baby gibberish. Oh, okay. It's a very modern life thing. But, but, you know, as you, you know, your parent, you know, you start thinking, what are my kids taking in? It's like, I, I'm purposely, having them watch old shows.

A lot of people are. Because I want them to enjoy what I enjoyed, but also I know that it's safe, that it's, you know, that they can just sort of enjoy the dynamic or something. There's nothing in there that they're going to have to go. What is that? No, I do Comic-Con occasionally, and that's all I hear is that my grandma introduced me to this show,

and I love you so much. You're gone, you're such a big part of my! And it's very, it's very, endearing. It's really sweet. And I think the parents and the grandparents, they're passing those shows on because they were harmless. They were fun. It was, I always, it's kind of like you get to laugh for no good reason. It's just silly. Is it, is it, um, because you, you know, if that was all the only success you'd ever had and you had other success, so that's not the point, but, but, you know, is it, is there a certain thing that when you reach that sort of the heart of

the American culture, you know, because, Being a rock band, people know who you are, but they don't think of you the way they think of people in an institutional way. Like you said, people felt they knew Carol. They were like Johnny Carson. We'd sit in bed at night and watch Johnny Carson before we went to bed. And we all did. The whole country did. Yes. So I'm saying that's a different vibe. So having had that in your life, like, how do you feel about that now? Is it warm your heart? Do you, I don't know how to answer the question properly. It's amazing that I feel that I got to touch that. I did a series a few years ago called The Cool Kids. And shortly into the series, five or six weeks or so, our showrunner comes down and says, we did a five last night. That is phenomenal in the ratings.

And the guest start that week was Patrick Duffy from Dallas. and he's down, we're having a table read. I said, Patrick, do you remember what the rating was the night that, who shot JR? He said, yeah, it was the 33. Yep. We did a five and they're excited. Yeah, different world. I got to work in a time when there were three channels.

So the whole country was watching you. Yeah, I interviewed not too long ago Aaron Murphy, who was the Tabathon Bewitched. And she was on the show from 11 months old to 8 years old. And when she started with the show, they were doing 30 million people a week. Yeah. Just like, that's my... We were in the 30s consistently. Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah. So before you start into your other life here, it was Mama. I just have to ask because I find all this fascinating. Match game, password, Hollywood Squares. You're sort of in that celebrity... I love game. Sure, but I'm saying it's just like, you know, I'm home watching all this stuff. But it's like, you know, at least for those of who us grew up on that type of television,

there's just sort of a romance to the, you know, the whatever that vibe was, Paul Lynn, and, you know, it's all that, whatever, that vibe. So can you just give me a vibe check on that? I just find it so fascinating. Did you have a manager who was like, you need to go on these shows? No, no, no. I just love game shows. No.

And once you've been on one and the producers know that you love it. Everybody starts calling it. And you're good. Yeah. If you're a good player. Well, you're good at improv, so that's got to be part of it, right? But no, I'm a game player. Sorry.

I love playing games. I feel the competitive fire rising up. Oh, I would get just so upset if I didn't win. And like one week, I lost the $25,000 pyramid and I felt so bad. And Dick Clark came up to me and he said, sweetie, she got $10,000. When has somebody handed you $10,000? for doing pretty much nothing. She's happy.

But I'm not. I don't win. I got a win. Yeah, I love to do the games. Plus, you got Laverne and Shirley, Love Boat? Love Boat. Was there a, did you have a manager in a year saying you've got to do this or were you self-directed at that point?

I mean, it's a pretty big thing to be on a network television show for 11 years. And again, there was other iterations summer runs. But the point is this, like, you're going in a different direction. Did you have career aspirations? Did you? I didn't really, Billy. I feel like everything that has happened to me has been a gift and an accident. And I'm just my entire life.

Does that include your son in the other room? Garrett was and Courtney was a lovely accident. My husband, I mean, I wouldn't have met my husband if it wasn't for Carol. You met on the show. So I feel like I do. I owe her my whole life. I meant to bring that up. Have you been with your husband over 50?

years now? He passed away just before our 50th anniversary. I'm sorry, I didn't know that. I wouldn't ask the question that way. Son of a gun. Sorry. I thought, we're going to make it to 50. That's going to be incredible. We were very close. That's amazing, though. 50 years is. Yeah. God bless. I'm sorry, I didn't, I didn't know. I wouldn't ask. Mary your best friend is my advice. I seem to, my wife thinks she's my best friend. It's not reciprocal. Well, I don't understand. Well, I don't my wife. Oh, well. Here, let me ask you this. Did you understand your husband? Oh, God, yes. Because we had a lot of similar backgrounds. We had mothers that were tough and, uh, we kind of understood each other very well. I don't, I don't understand my wife at all. And how nice is it to have a guy that makes your face pretty?

It's very nice. Did he, did, did I read right that he kind of ended up kind of running the business side of your life? He did. Yeah. He did. He wanted to, when we first got married, he wanted to leave the Burnett Show and go do Planet of the Apes because he had a lot of makeup friends that were working on all these prosthetic things. Well, if you're a makeup guy, that's a gay. Yeah, yeah. So he said, are you okay with that?

And I said, absolutely. Go and have a good time. So, yeah, that was a fantasy of his. But then when we had kids, it was like, how are we going to do all of this? and he pretty much became Mr. Mom before it was fashionable. Okay. God bless. Yeah, he did a lot of heavy lifting.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, suddenly there's this idea of a TV movie, Eunice, which is based on the mama sketches. Did you guys call him the mama sketches, or what would there was a name for? The family. Family. And, and, so Eunice is the character that Carol plays.

played the much aggrieved daughter, right? And correct me from wrong, at some point before that, you'd been offered like a spin-off series or something as mama, and you turned it down. I did. I think it was the eighth season, and I'd just been pregnant for nine months, and I'm like, I don't want to go be an old woman for every week.

I just don't want to do it. It was Carol's husband. He said, I want to spin it off. Yeah. And I said, but what if it doesn't work? He said, you'll come back here. I see. I said, my tail tuck between my leg.

No, I don't want to do this. So I said, no, I said no. So when they did the TV movie, you thought, okay, that's fine. I work with Carol, and it'll be like a limited thing. Right. Is that, is the logic? Well, she had a deal with CBS for so many specials. Okay.

So she commissioned that script as one of her specials. So you were cool with it as a sort of a TV thing. Yeah. Yeah, like it's a gig and it'll be fun. I mean, just want to understand your logic. I think we were all living in Hawaii at the time. And Carol came out to the pool one day, slammed that script down in front of my face and said,

read this, see if you want to do it. But there's only one problem. They kill off your character. That's what I said. I said, Mama dies in the end. And she said, just, do you want to do this or not? Don't be greedy. So, yeah, we did the special.

And the special did well. It did well. And so now they have to figure out how to bring Mama back. I was nominated for an Emmy. God bless. The category was hysterical. I wish I had the list of, oh, my God, it was hysterical. Best young person playing a venerable character.

But they were all serious actresses, all the women that were in this category. And then there's me. I was sitting next to Harvey at the Emmys, and he said, you're so not winning, sweetie, but I'm so proud of you. Yeah. And I still, Garrett actually. found a letter from Carol that she wrote me after that, after it aired. And he framed it for me because he said, it's the coolest letter, mom, where she just says you stole the show. Oh, God bless. It's a really sweet letter. So is it as simple as the special did it well enough.

They're like, we got to do this. The special had not aired. Carol invited us up to her house to screen it before it ever went on the air. Okay. And before the credits even started to roll, she was all over me. You've got to do this as a series. And Harvey, you have got to do this as a series. Did you say the logical thing, but you just killed the character? Carol said, you're your fault.

I can. Yeah, she said, she will take care of you. Do her, do it. Wow. So she kind of talked me into that. Yeah. And she's right. has taken love with care of me.

Yeah. Another gift from Carol. Yeah. So. You know, Mama was written for her. She was supposed to be Mama. And how did you end up as Mama?

She didn't want that character. She didn't feel that was her. She was supposed to play Mama and they were going to get a guest star to play Unis and it was going to be a one-time sketch. Yeah. She would have been a good mama, I think. Well, I think Mama is a little

angrier than Carol. Carol plays the Eunice type better, I think. Yeah. Well, she's so good as Eunice. I mean, the dynamic between you two is just money all day long. And I think she went to Bob Mackie and said, couldn't we make Vicki Mama?

And he said, yeah, of course. Because he'd made me many old ladies by then. Because it was her show. She was Shirley Temple. I was the mean old school teacher. She was a princess. I was the wicked witch. It was, you know, we'd done it a lot already.

So you end up back at TV City. Yeah. Same studio. Now I've got Carol's dressing room. That was a little nerve-wracking. Okay. I'm like, I'm not supposed to be. Did you, were you okay with sort of being the star of the show?

I'm not saying it not as an ego thing. I'm so it's like, it's like a lot of pressure. Like you said before, you didn't pay attention to ratings. Now you're in this position where it's like, you don't draw the ratings, it's your fault, right? I mean, is that fair? Yeah, yeah. But I... Are you just not that type of personality?

I was pretty comfortable because I knew Mama like the back of my hand pretty much by then. Yeah. Although not really. I mean, that show was sold. The legend is it was sold on the golf course. Grant Tinker was the head of NBC at the time. Right. And Joe sold him the whole idea for the series.

We never did a pilot. we were just put on the air. And the poor writers had to figure out who Mama's family was kind of on the fly. Right. You know, they couldn't be the Eunice's family anymore. It's got to be Mamas. And how do we make that happen? I see.

So it was a little bit of a tough transition. I read some weird thing where they wanted Mama to sleep with somebody in the first episode and you put your foot down. It was the only time that I ever disagreed with the writers. And it was probably midway through the run. And the storyline is that her brother-in-law shows up, her husband's brother, who's a, I think he was like a merchant marine or something. So he comes back. He's very nice looking. And they wrote in the script that they sleep together, but Mama never says anything.

And the family never really knows for sure. And I said to the writers, you know, I think this is really wrong. I do not think Mama would ever, ever sleep with her brother-in-law. She is nothing, if not a Bible-fearing Christian. And I just don't think this would ever happen. Yeah. And the writers were kind of upset. And Joe said, listen to Vicky.

Mm-hmm. For first and only time, I think he ever said that to me. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of, you know, gun smoke, which was 20, 21 seasons long. Mm-hmm. They made the decision at some point that James Arnest would never get with the kitty character. Mm-hmm. It was always sort of implied there was a romance. But even when the show's ratings started to dip, you know, 16 seasons in, of course, somebody suggested, well, maybe you guys get married and it'll pop the ratings.

And they said, no, don't mess with it. Like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So they rewrote that episode and the family thinks maybe she did, but they never really know for sure. The audience knows for sure. So it's kind of a weird thing, and it's maybe two inside baseball, but it's like the show runs for two years, gets canceled or doesn't get renewed. then it sort of is on reruns for a year

and then kind of gets picked back up into local syndication because of the growth of those types of WGNs and those types of networks. And then you have like another three or four years, is that. It was six years total. Yeah. Yeah. That's an odd history.

It is, but it was right when syndication was getting sort of popular. First run syndication was getting popular. And you were sort of branching out away from those three big networks. Yeah. NBC, the problem for us was that the young guys that weren't the young guns, the suits, number one, did not understand a young woman playing an old woman, and number two did not like rural comedy.

And some of our best comedies are the rural, I would beg to differ, you know. Well, this is why this character is so beloved and you're still touring on the character. And I still watch Andy Griffith. It was such an adorable show. I still watch some of the old shows. I love them because you just don't really, you're not nervous. Who's going to say what? You can have your grandbabies watch them.

They're laughing for no good reason. It's just comfortable. There still is an inherent cultural bias in New York and L.A. towards southern culture as far as it being portrayed or has to be portrayed a certain way. But having grown up with family from the South, they love that character because they're like they knew that character like the back of their hand. Yeah, but they kept moving our time slot. They kept giving us tougher and tougher time slots. We went against Love Boat, started a falter about. Then they put us again, I think they put us against Tom Selleck as Magnum P.I. And they faltered a little more. And I think they felt like they had enough ammunition to cancel us. So, yeah, we sat for like a year and a half. And that was right at the time when Lorimar merged with telepictures. And Lorimar was Dallas and Dynasty and all those soap opera shows. And, and that was right at the time. And And telepictures with these young guns that were going to go into the syndication business, and they were looking for things that they could buy and sell that hadn't really gotten a fair shot.

And they looked at the demographic of Mama's family, and they said, this show should be a hit. So they took us on. They didn't ask, the great part was that we would do a show, send the tape to them, and they'd send the checks. They never interfered. We hardly ever saw them. The first day I went to work, I parked next to Ted Knight. And he was the only other person doing first-run syndication on a show called Too Close for Comfort. And I looked at that parking space and I loved him on Mary Tyler Moore. I thought, well, if Ted can do it, we can do it. Yeah.

And, oh, my God, I had so much fun. It was so fun. I took a lot of the staff with me from the Burnett show. So it was really comfortable. Did you have more control over the show at that point? Well, we did two shows with the original writers, and they were still writing Eunice's family. Mama was still really mean, and it just didn't feel comfortable at all. So I'm the one who pulled the plug and said, I need Harvey.

I need my teacher. And Harvey came in, and he said, she's got to be a sitcom star now. People aren't going to come home and put their feet up and pop a beer and watch a woman yell at people for half an hour. 25 minutes, yeah. Yeah. So he said, she's got to be a sitcom. She's got to laugh. She's got to do silly stuff.

And I said to Harvey, I don't think she's ever smiled. He said, but she is you. You are mama. And anything you can do, mama can do. And he was sort of responsible for setting her free, I think. I see. This might be too, like a method actor question. But in order to be so effective at a character,

There's got to be some part of you that sort of identifies with Mama's sort of. And I think I have more of that edgy kind of sarcastic sense of humor than Carol does. And I think that's why the roles end up the way they do. I see. I see. When you tour as Mama these days, I mean, are you doing more topical humor and stuff like that? I watched a couple clips. Yeah. I saw you making fun of our current president somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I put the show together, I knew that Mama had to be a huge part of it. Yeah. So I said in my writing part, I do not want this to be retrospective. I want to push her into the new century and let her deal with all the crap that's going on in the world. And it just keeps getting crappier, so there's plenty of stuff to talk about. There's plenty to talk about.

And the fun thing is that that old lady can get away with anything. Yeah. If I said the stuff that Mama says, I'd be in big trouble. But, you know, it's Mama. She's a crazy old lady. I haven't seen this, but somebody was raving to me about you being in this Menendez Brothers sort of docudrama. Yeah. And they said it took him a hot second to even recognize that it was you because it was this sort of dramatic thing.

Are you sort of, where you at in terms of wanting to work, not work, you know what I mean? Well, I'd love to work and I'd love not to always be Mama forever. I know how much people love her, but I would love to play like a villain in another You'd make a great film. Yeah, I think it would be fun. Well, thank you so much. Hope you had a good time. Thank you.

That was quick and easy. Not like going to the dentist at all. Well, Chuck's going to the dentist later. Oh, well, I'm sorry about that. Okay, thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.