The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Zakk Wylde | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary guitarist Zakk Wylde to discuss their shared love of classic rock influences like Sabbath, Hendrix, and Elton John, and the challenges of forging an original sound in the shadow of greats like Eddie Van Halen and Randy Rhoads. Zakk opens up about his time with Ozzy Osbourne, the evolution of his playing style, his influences, and the brotherhood of musicians. The conversation also touches on the impact of Pantera, Zakk’s tribute performances for Dimebag Darrell and Vinnie Paul, and the spirit of perseverance that drives his career. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDeCB0oUBgw r Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Look, just play with your heart. Change your pants. Something smells in here. My high school band was named Hexon. Oh, nice. So when you were in Stonehands and Zyrus, I was in Hexen. Nice, we could have towed together back then. Oh, my God.

And that's why we're meeting today. Yes. Because we're going to put those bands back together. There you go. And do the tour. That never was. Well, thank you for being here. This is my big talk show.

Thanks for having me, Paul, Bill. I'm so excited to talk guitar with you. I'm a total nerd. I had to come down to the ultimate podcast over here. I'm going to, for full disclaimer, you did bring this Ultimate Warrior today, which is pretty cool. Just so you could have the ultimate podcast today.

You know, legal disclaimer, if I get sued over this, I'm sending them to you. I'm sending them to be BLS, LLC, right? No. Well, it'll be the ultimate. What's your LLC called? It's got to be good. The ultimate lawsuit.

Yeah, the ultimate lawsuit. You've got to have a good LLC name somewhere. Yeah, we'll figure something out. So doing a little research on you. You're actually older than me, but not by much, only a couple months. And my dad would always say to me, you're gaining. Okay, well, whatever I've done another year, he goes, you're getting on me, son. We're born the same year, 67.

67. And so it explains something to me because I've been a fan of you ever since you showed up with Ozzy, and I was like, who's this guy, right? But I always felt like I understood you're playing, and I think we grew up in the same stew of influences. Even though I took it one way. Yeah, totally. I totally get the way you play guitar, and I love the way you play guitar. I appreciate, man. Right back at you, brother.

Thank you. But what's so cool is I feel like I really get it. I don't know if that makes sense. You know, I'm not saying like I just like the way you play. Like, I feel like I understand why you choose certain notes, why you play certain things. Well, no, even when, you know, we were talking about, like, when you did the interview, remember what you did with Eddie, Van Halman. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And you were talking about like how you loved, you know, when we were talking about Fair Warning and stuff like that because it was the darkest record. Yeah, yeah. Like that, which it was, you know what I mean? But, I mean, they're all great. But, I mean, you know, Fair Warning had its own identity as well.

It's a lot darker than the other ones. Yeah, totally. But, no, yeah, because we all grew up on, like you said, Eddie and Randy, Mattias Jabs and all the, you know, that was the new breed coming in. George Lynch, you know. Who were some of those 70s guys that, like you and I would know? Obviously, I mean, for me, it was, it's whoever your favorite.

You know, if you're a Black Sabbath fan, then it's Tony Iommi's your guy. So for me it was Tony Iommi, obviously, and then being Jimmy Page, you know. But you guys, do you like guys like Ronnie Montrose and Pat Travers? I found out obviously you find out about a lot of the guys. Yeah. My guitar teacher at the time when I first started was this guy named Leroy Roy. Right, and Leroy was, he was like 10 years older than me, but he was a huge Hendricks guy,

and he was the one that turned beyond the Frank Marino and Robin Trower. Yeah. You know what I mean like that, which I would have, you know, at the time I didn't know, you know, of Jimmy Hendrix or whatever, but then here in Frank Marino and then Robin Trowler and everything like that, but then, you know, obviously, the more you're learning guitar,

you're learning from your favorite guys, which would be Sabbath was my favorite band. So, you know, trying to learn every Black Sabbath song, but uh but then you know the more you're learning then you're finding about this guy's great this guy's awesome you know Ronnie Montrose or any of the guys Alvin Lee you know I mean Albert Lee and you know then your whole you know your world your horizon opens up you know like even with a St. Rose with Randy yeah you know I remember you know then finding out that Mick Ronson was his guy you know

Randy was like McRonson's my guy and then I remember seeing you know us being younger we're going oh you got a Randy Rhodes haircut and it's like no that's that's a McRonson haircut you know no I'm just saying so yeah it all goes you know so for a kid when I'm I'm coming in it's like oh Zach Walser it's just like yeah Randy's his guy so it's like you have Randy's guy is McRonson you know so I know you're a rocker but your phone's on oh oh is it going to make a noise this is this is an official podcast you can't have anything okay we got to keep it pro yeah but uh No, but I just always thought it was like, it's so awesome how you just see the correlation between everything and you do research on the history.

We're talking about either wrestlers or bands and this and that, your favorite bands. And you go, oh, you really like them. You got to hear so-and-so because they've got a lot of stuff from them, you know what I'm. And it's like, then you listen and you're like, oh, wow, I never knew about that. You know what I mean? So which is always awesome. I thought what I really loved about your playing, and I guess I would have heard you sort of 80, 89. Yeah, Miracle Man and all that stuff.

It was like, wow, this guy has kind of a 70s foundation, but he's playing different. Does it make sense to you the way I'm putting it? Well, without a doubt, as far as, like, Frank Marino being one of my favorite guys, and obviously Randy. But usually when guys would play with those influences, they would just kind of sound like those guys. Somehow you sounded like you. You know what I'm saying? I could feel where you were coming from, but it felt like, wow, this guy's got a totally. different take on it. But you know what was so funny coming when I first started playing with

eyes, right? You know, I am 19, 20 years old. And it's just like, well, how am I going to be Zach Watt, you know, like how am I supposed to be me? Like what's going to be my sound or whatever? And then I'm just thinking to myself, I go, well, if you don't want to sound like Inveh, you know, because Inveh was, forget about it. Oh, yeah. I mean, as far as I'm concerned. Did you see Inveh like that when you first came to America? Did you see any of those stewards? Put it this way. I remember when I first heard Steeleer, it was, did, there was lights out, because I was like, so on the album. I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing?

No, it was to another level. I mean, I'm just saying, like, you know, how, like, Jimmy Hendricks, obviously it was the, you know, the massive meteor. And then you had, you know, then obviously King Edward was the second coming. You know what I mean? I'm just saying as far as, like, game changing meteor that just hit the planet. And then I think the last one was,

was Inveh. I mean, as much as, you know, we love, you know, with St. Roads, you know, you had Eddie and Randy and everything like that, you know, so it was like, but like, forget about when InVay, because when, when Ed came out, that just changed everything where everyone would happen, the harmonics, did, and not only that, that ushered in the whole, the new, new breed and the new era. So, I mean, the new gunslinger. Yeah, with Randy with the, with the pointy guitars, the stripes on the guitars, the polka dots on the, the, the guitars, the paint jobs on the guitars. None of the, you know, between Beck, Clapton, Page, the Big Three, and then Tony Iommi and then Richie Blackmore and all the guys that they got it from, none of the guys had like painted guitars or anything like that. You either played a Strat or a Les Paul. You know, you had a cool looking guitar or whatever.

But they were the, Eddie and the guys were the ones, the late 70s, 80s guys were the ones that brought in the different shaped guitars and not everyone was playing a Les Paul or a strap. So it was like, what is it, Jackson? I mean, you know, I remember, you know, so people were like, what is it? I have never even heard of that. Or, you know, Eddie, yeah, would just,

Eddie would just have, like, parts of guitars together. Like, nobody even knew what he was playing. Or even thought of doing that. Yeah, because it wasn't a fender. It looks like a strap body, but what is, you know, and then Eddie just tweaking all his guitars. And that was the new breed that was coming in. But, no, I mean, for me, I was just like,

well, if you don't want to sound like Invei, just get rid of, harmonic minor and diminished. And it was like, if you don't want to sound like Eddie, then get rid of the tap and the harmonics and get rid of the whammy bar. And then it was just like,

just crossing off all the lists. Like if you don't want to be compared to certain people, get rid of that. But that's pretty cool. That makes a certain sense. And then I was just like, well, what's left? A lot of blues. I mean, everything was kind of,

there's not much room left on the grocery list. And I was just like, well, I guess just pentatonic scales. instead of three notes of scale, like Aldamiola and InVay and Evina, and what was massively popular at that time. So it was just like, all right, well, then I'll just do pentatonic scales, but I'll pick them, you know,

as opposed to just doing hammerons and pull-offs. Sure, yeah. So it was like, all right, so every time when I was going to write a solo, whether it's Miracle Man or Crazy Trails, and then everything that was on that record, demon alcohol. No rest for the wicked.

And then no more tears was next. But I mean, no more. I see you're talking about that. Yeah. The first album. It was just like, I'll just base everything off of pentatonic. It's like you only have,

like those cooking shows when they go, you only have X amount of cooking, you know, I give you a basket. I didn't know that about you, but it makes total sense. Yeah, because I was just like,

well, what am I going to do? If you do harmonic minor or this and that, it doesn't matter how fast you play it. Yeah. It's going to go, oh, wow. He sounds like a fasting day. Yeah.

You know, or if you do taps even faster than Eddie Van Hale. It's just like. But did you go sing, like, around 84 or any of those times? I never saw InVay back then, you know, I mean, at that time. I went when I was like 17. Where did you see him at? Ergon Ballroom. Oh, wow.

Talas was opening with Billy Shannon on bass. And it was the Rising Force tour with Jeff Scott Soto singing in 84, 85. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm a young shredder. And it just blows my mind. You know what I mean? You know, you know, he's drunk out of his, drunk off his ass and he's laughing and he's, you know, he's like. No, effortlessly.

Effortless. I mean, because what would Inbe always say, it's just like, it's not just speed and it's just not, it's not jive. I mean, it's, it's, he's speaking. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's musical. Yeah. Yeah, he's very musical. And his feel with vibrato. He's, his timing.

He's so ridiculous. It's like, it makes me laugh because he's just so, it's like. No. I saw you play on that The guitar tour you guys would do. Oh, the generation accident. InVey and, you know. I was at one of those shows, Dallas or something.

And there was that bit where Steve I and Inveh were, they were doing Black Star together. Back and forth. And Inveh, I found it online. There's a clip of it. Invei did some run, like low to high. It was so insane that Steve I literally went.

What Steve would do like every day. Oh, okay. It worked for me. me because I was like, no, but I had to go find the lick because I thought maybe it was in my mind that was that good and it was that good. It was like a swimmer nailing a dive or something. Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, Inver is that insanely good.

But, you know, I mean, but talking about like even with the Generation Axe thing, you know, because the older you get, you don't realize, you know, I remember seeing like, I remember with a Les Paul tribute, I remember Eddie Van Halen was playing on there, David. Gilmore was on there and all the stuff and it was just, I mean, then you start to realize, like, all, like, what's David Gilmore going to do after Eddie gets done shredding up there with the, sitting in with the band? It's like, all David Gilmore has to do is be David Gilmore. Yeah, that's it.

No, because Dave's going to go up. Well, in fact, I'm not going to try and sit up there and try and play as fast as Eddie. That's not my thing. Yeah. No, because, I mean, I'm just saying, like, we all love pizza. Just be whatever slice of pizza you are, whether you're a margarita or if you're just a plane slice or you're a mushroom slice or your garlic slice or your

pepperoni or a meat lover's slice. I'm just saying you just go with your strengths. So I'm just saying like when I'm up there with the Generation Axe thing, you know you have Invee, you have Stevie, you have Nuno, you have Tosin.

When we walk in this, you know, I could be at sound, I'd just walk in the building. Two seconds in, whenever the guys pick up a guitar, like Nuno, I could tell it's him, immediate, you know, like, as soon as I hear his vibrato, I hear Steve's vibrato, and they do one lick, and just the tone of their guitars, you know what's Steve.

Invee picks up the guitar, and he just, he doesn't have to do harmonic minority. You play a pentatonic, like, a blues lick, like he's playing from Purple Hays or something, and you know it's immediately Inveh, and then Tosin just whips out, just like three notes. And you just go, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. Yeah. That you have your own voice.

You know what I mean? Like Bob Dylan, And it doesn't matter whether, you know, Bob can sing as good as Michael Bolton. It doesn't, he has his own sound. You know, just like with Smasher Pumpkins and your vocals. Yeah. You know, I'm just saying when the alternative thing was huge, between you, Kurt, Lane, Chris Cornell, like, as soon as I hear, like, two notes of it, you know who's singing.

Yeah. It makes me proud when my kids, you know, I'm like little kids, and my song comes down in the car and they go, that's daddy. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, they know my voice. Yeah, that's cool. Les Paul said that about Pat Martino one day. You know, Pat's this legendary jazz player. But when Pat was young, he was playing in some club, and Les saw him playing.

And he was just like, wow, that's amazing. You know, just technically what Pat could do and everything. And he just goes, but can your mom tell what's you on the radio? Wow. Like Les said that then all those years ago. But it really is the truth. It doesn't matter. whether you have the, if you're the most technically amazing player or,

it doesn't matter, you know, vocally or guitar playing wise or drumming wise. Yeah. I mean, because when you hear Keith Moon and I hear John Bonham, it's two distinctly amazing guys, you know, that have their own voice. Yeah. So, or Neil Perth. Those three guys are completely different slices of pizza. Mind you, all amazing slices of pizza, but I mean, it just depends on what mood you're in. Are you in New York pizza guy?

No, I do love pizza. Who doesn't? You know what I'm a vegan now, so I can't eat Chicago pizza anymore. Oh, well, it depends on whether we just stick a bunch of broccoli in there for you or some salad. You know what I mean? Whatever, so you'll be fine. We'll just take the meat out of it, you know? All right.

I got to take you back to, I saw these names and I got to ask. Stonehenge and was it Zyrus or Zyrus? Oh, Stonehenge was before Zyrus. Right. But we literally, the name of the band was Stonehenge. My high school band was named Hexen. Oh, nice. So when you were in Stonehenge and Ziris, I was in Hexon.

Nice, we could have toured together back then. Oh, my God. And that's why we're meeting today. Yes. Because we're going to put those bands back together. There you go. And do the tour that never was. But I remember Stonehenge, we ended up, we had our manager at the time, our buddy, Mike Cowitz.

I still talk to Mike all the time. We talk out of chat all the time. But Mikey was our manager, and I remember him with my mom. They made up a contract, you know, for like, it was the best. Like an appearance contract? Yes, like we're going to be playing in a ketchup's kitchen, you know, in the kitchen, you know, at our buddy's house. And it's just, I remember the contract was for like, you know to provide money the $40 was going to provide money for the for the PA and to pay the

band right but uh I remember and that's all that was on the contract that you know Kevin was going to pay you know cover the $40 sure and I remember Mike the contract and a hatchet in the briefcase so this was pre-Peter grant reading you know reading Peter Grant's autobiography look for yet. But it was just so Mike already knew then. You know what I mean? So we had the contract, maybe a ham sandwich and then this hatchet

in the case. So just in case settlement didn't happen. You know, we could settle this thing. But it's just in Jackson, New Jersey. This is how you handled this abuse. No one messes with Stonehenge. Yeah, the Brookwood Bar and Grill where you could meet half yard.

High school graduating class would be there. But I mean, But yeah, but Mike, I remember brought the contract there one day, and we were going to play at Kevin's in. He goes, well, Kevin, you got the $40 to pay the band. And he was like, well, Mike, I was just thinking maybe, you know, I'll toss a hat around. I only got $20.

I'll just toss a hat around at the end of the night and pay you guys at the end. He goes, he got the $40. And he was like, I only got $20 now. And he goes, he just closes the briefcase. He goes, let's go. We're not doing the gig. and we all were walking out to Mike's car. Yeah, and we're going,

then we want to play the show, you know. And he's just like, he'll never make any money with that attitude. And next thing you know, Kevin comes running out of the house. He's like, I got the extra 20 bucks. And it's just like, why did you have to do that, man?

Yeah, yeah. No, but like, but that still goes on to this day. Yes. So, no, nothing. Wrestling, too, by the way. Yes, I agree. So nothing has changed. since like 1983 when we were doing these shows.

So Stonehenge was it originals or covers or both? We did all covers in that one. All covers. I mean, we were doing Bark at the Moon at that time. We may have been opening up with Bark at the Moon at Kevin's Kitchen. And then I remember we played the Bobby Bush Demolition Fest. And I remember that was when... This is some New Jersey shit is shown out here.

Oh, it was awesome. Her parents were sold the house. It was a bi-level house, right? Almost like the Brady Bunch. kind of thing. And all I remember is like that movie Weird Science where half the high school showed up on the front lawn.

Well, it was because her parents went to the polka nose and she was going to have this big blowout and Stonehenge is going to play. And we had the light show and I remember Mr. Antion, Frank, his buddy, his dad was an electrician. We made our light show out of

out of can. Bring back a lot of memories for me right here. Totally. But we made the, it had the, you know, we had the light trees. You know, you get at Home Depot. We just built the things in electrical trades. And it was this coffee cans where you could screw the light bolt in. We sprayed paint of the light, you know, whether the red one, a blue one, a yellow one, whatever.

And we had it on the trees. And I remember Mr. Antion, let's say, he's like, boys, you're not using this thing, are you? And we were like, well, what's the matter with it, Mr. Antion? We've been doing tons of shows with this, with our little lighting rig, but you turn the thing on so it looks all pro. I remember it was just, you're like, are you kidding me? You're not using this thing.

We were like, what's so mad? He's like, anyone touch, all these wires are live. Anyone touches the wires. Oh, my God. So I'm just thinking between the amount of booze floating around at these high school parties that we're playing at, live wires, and everything like that. Just the animal house factor that going on in,

with these Stonehen shows, but I remember when we did Bobby Bush's house, her parents were gone, torrential downpour that night. Right. And I remember everyone just parked up on the lawn, parked up out front of the house. People from other,

from freehold, lakewood, all outside communities coming into Jackson to go to this party. People I've never even seen before. And I remember we opened up with Bark at the Moon. And I remember, all I remember is just, I mean, the house was packed. And I remember going up the stair,

People were just flying up on the stairs, getting hammered, smoking cigarettes, putting them out in the carpet of the house. And I'm just saying, now that you're a homeowner, there's a whole different outlook in view. Well, put it this way. This house between the sliding closet doors demolishing. I could make a comedy movie out of this whole thing. But it was just like something out of weird science at the end when the guys rolling in with the motorcycles. nothing. Demolishing the house completely.

No, no cops even showed up at this thing, but it was, when we were loading out, Bill, me and you would have been looking at the floor going. Yeah. We've got to get out of here now, man. I mean, holes in the walls,

and I remember somebody wrote on the wall, Stonehenge was here. I mean, it was like, wow. You killed. Yes. Oh, yeah. We killed our,

we killed Bobby's chance. of ever having another party at that house. So here's my same story back. High school party. They'd cover the entire first floor of the house in plastic trash bags. Nice. In anticipation of the beer party to come.

Well, at least they were being cautious rockers. Yes. I'm standing, because there's so many people in the room, I'm standing pressed against my son bass stack because I want more volume, so I'm playing through a bass amp. Of course. We're playing Stranglehold by New Jersey. Of course.

I'm literally in the opening part of the song. You know, the whole bit, cops walk in. Cop walks me and does one of these. I stop. He goes, you guys got to quit. I go, but look at all these people. He goes, you want to go to jail? He go, well, jail was a good for.

I love New Jersey, but not that bad. Yeah, good for jail. So we didn't even make it through, we didn't even get to the vocal. Wow. It didn't even get that far. No, that was it. Okay. And then everyone proceeded to demolish the house. I got out. I was so disappointed I got on. I never saw the rest of the party. You and me have a great love and respect for Sabbath. But like beyond Sabbath, can you just pick like one band that I might be surprised by that you were really influenced by?

Well, I mean, it depends. I mean, you know, it's just. like, I know you have a lot of influences. Elton John, obviously, was the first thing that I was the power of music. I remember seeing Elton John on the Sonny and Share show. And he was playing Lucy in the Sky with diamonds.

And at that time, I didn't even know it was a Beatles song. I'm just going, I just know him. So it's like crazy whenever I YouTube up, you know, like Elton John, Sonny and Share Show. It's just like, you get, you know, the power of music or movies, you know, that you saw when you were kids. I said it would have been like you're about 74. 75. Yeah, so you're 7, 8 years old.

You're watching this legend. But you don't know he's the legend. No. And if he's doing a Beatles song, you don't know it's a Beatles song. My mom and dad had Sonny and Cher on. Whatever this is. But yes, but it was kind of funny how you're all of us, you know, your introduction to certain songs, you know, when people go,

why does Hollywood regurgitate, you know, they make, remake movies where I go, because for the next generation, They've never seen The Exorcist. Yeah, yeah. So if they're going to remake any classic movies, it's because they've never seen it. Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, like, so I've never even hurt, you know,

so that was like my first introduction. And I remember my buddy Scott, his older brothers, I was like, oh, I heard this, you know, this amazing song by this guy Elton John. It's so awesome. They were like, losing the sky with Don. I was like, Lucy in the Scott with Don. It's an Elton John song, you know?

And then they just beat me profusely out in the garage. of the house and then after that we went and saw James Bond Moonraker and I was like man we just saw James Bond that was amazing and I was like Roger Moore's amazing yeah and they go again Roger Moore he's not James Bond Sean Conner he changed so I got beat up again profusely but like you said so that was my introduction

to those songs I mean or movies or whatever you know so it's just like you know it just transcends but it's just like But yeah, but I remember it was so funny seeing I was with Oz and mom with Mrs. O. Me and Barb got, my wife got, we got remarried for like the 428 time in Vegas, right? And we all went and saw Elton John when he was doing his residency thing. So we were all there. And mom got us because she's friends with Elton John.

So I never met him before. So I had my book when I was like eight years old. And I still have the Elton John wall poster and everything like that, but I had, I brought this book I've had since I've been eight years old, you know what I mean? So I got it for Christmas or whatever.

And we went back, and it's amazing because I'm sitting here getting a picture. I got a picture, Oz is on one side and Elton John's on the other. It's like just bizarrely. Yeah. Like my two biggest musical influences. Yeah.

Pretty mind-balled. Yeah. Well, I know you're a song guy, meaning when I listen to your music, I know you love song. You know, not every shredder loves song. You know, some shredders just wait to get out. Yeah, no, but it is kind of funny

because a lot of my buddies are, anybody that I know that shredders, everyone either loves, everyone loves great music. I'm just saying, you know, whether it's yacht rock or we're listening to New Wave Essentials or whatever, it's just like, yeah, as much as, no, it is crazy.

I mean, I'm just saying, well, look at Father Steve, with Steve Vi. Yeah. One of Steve's basically his face. favorite artist is Tom, Tom Waits. And you would never get that from, if you were talking about Steve,

you would figure Steve, like, one of his favorite artists would be John McLaughlin or Alan Holdsworth or some insane guitar player, right? And so it's just like, Steve's like, oh, no way. He's like, if I was a Desert Island guy, Tom Waits all day long. Like, that's what that, and so trying to put Tom Tom Waits with Steve's insane guitar playing.

Yeah. It's beautiful that I think you're right, because what you're reminding me is that most great musicians love great music. Yeah. It's probably got, there's some connection there between their love of music and just because they had sort of find their own personality in it. Like you were saying, like, it's not that you didn't love Ingvei, you're like, I don't want to sound like Ingbe. No, totally. I mean, like Ingbe and even being around InVey, he loves Keith Richards, he loves the Stones, he loves everything, you know what I mean? So it's not that Ingbeys, he's just a lot of things.

And, I mean, obviously, his love for classical music and Bach and everything like that. He was just like, I mean, he loves that style. Were you like me? Were you trying to look up who the hell is Paganini? Are you in that face? Well, obviously. Whenever you read like in the magazine, it'd be like Paganine, who the fucks Paginian? No, without it, but that's what I'm saying.

That's how you discover all these amazing guys. I mean, like, put it this way. We was talking about the last meteor to hit the earth. I mean, as far as guitar impact. Yeah. It was just like Derek Sherinian, who. you know, Derek played with Dream Theater, and Derek's, I mean, you can Google up Derek playing

Spanish Fly on the piano, right? I mean, Derek's a whole nother level. But it's just like, even Derek was saying what he was at, Berkeley, because him and JD both went to Berkeley, JD who plays in Black Labels. So, but when Inve hit, they were opening up wards in Berkeley, you know, classical wards because of Ingve's impact. Oh, interesting.

You know what I mean? Like guitar studies were all these box studies, and the Valdi, Paganini, and it, just because of his explosion on the scene and what he, because he made it, everyone wanted to learn it. Yeah, yeah. You know. So, I want to jump into your recent stuff. I know you put out a song recently, Gallows.

Yeah, well, we were getting ready to do. Oh, it's just so weird right now because. Is that because of the Pantera thing? Well, no, I mean, what we're doing, obviously the Pantera celebration, which is a blast. blast and we're all having a great time in honor and diamond viny every night and you know Phil and Rex this amazing thing that they created that just touched so many people so uh i mean we're all having a blast out on that because with the crew whenever it's just like one

gigantic family so we're having a great time out on that but like in between that and then we just did the berserkis fest and everything like that so any any times in between and the Zach Sabbath thing and all this other stuff, it's just like between cleaning the dog run, doing dishes, laundry, and then it's just like, yeah, whatever time and yeah, bringing Sabbath page to school or whatever, whatever time we, empty time we have in there, it just will go into Black Vatican and track some new ideas.

So, but it's a weird thing because, I mean, the old model of making, you know, you make a record and we put it out. Yeah. And you promote it. It's gone. Yeah, it's just like you almost kind of just, you could just put singles out. Yeah. Because it's just like, when you release a record, it just, they could just, as soon as it goes out, it's all there anyways.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's just a weird, like that, you know, nobody uses rotary phones anymore. You know what I mean? Because everyone has cell phones. It's just like, and there's no pay phones anywhere. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

Because back in the day, you'd have to pull over on a truck stop. Oh, I remember. To call home. You know what I mean? So, and it's just like we'd be walking around going, we'd go to a 7-Eleven. I go, Bill, do you notice something right? You go, yeah, there's no pay for. Yeah, yeah, they're gone.

Yeah, they're gone. I do want to talk about Black Label, but I want to start with Pinterra, because obviously you've been doing this touring. It's hard. I was around that band a lot in the 90s. You probably don't know that, but. So I got to know Dime a bit and got to see him play live. 20 times.

And I hope you take this as a compliment, because I mean it is a very respectful compliment. I heard, you know, because you were in the biz, you start hearing rumblings that you guys were going to do something. Yeah. You know, six, nine months before it happened. And, you know, of course, the first question, people ask, well, who's going to play guitar? And the minute I heard it was your name, I was like, oh, that's definitely going to work. Oh, dear.

I appreciate it, man. So I'm glad you take that as a compliment, because you're one of the only guys on the planet I think could both honor dime and play the music. Does it make sense the way I put that? Yeah, well, I mean, my whole thing is like whenever anybody asked me, like when it was all, this is when Vinny was still alive, it was just like, you know, there was always wrong, hey, Zach, man, if the fellas ever do it or whatever, did a reunion, you know, to celebrate dime and everything like that, would you be, I go, of course I would.

It's just like, you know, I remember Rob Halford, you know, we were doing opening for Judas Priest over in Europe on some of the shows. And, no, down in, when we were down in South America when we first started doing it. And Rob was like, Zach, this is a real beautiful thing that you guys are doing. And I was like, thanks, Rob. But he just goes, I said, it wasn't a matter of if I'll do it, it's when I'll do it. Because I just equated to, like with Jimmy Hendricks and Eric Clapton, like with their relationship. If Mitch and Noel would have said, Eric, we want to go celebrate Jimmy. Yeah.

Would you sing and play Jimmy's stuff? Yeah. How, of course Eric Clapton's going to say yes. Yeah, I get that. You know, he was there. You know, if you laid, you know, I laid dime the rest. Yeah. As a pallbearer.

So, like, what do you think I'm going to do? It's my buddy. Yeah. But, you know, we live in this complicated world where people do silly things, say silly stuff. So the other reason I thought it was going to work is you have so much respect from people as a musician. It registered in my mind that like if anybody was going to stand there and sort of navigate it, it was you. I literally can't think if anybody else that could be in that spot. I think about it. I appreciate it.

No, but I mean, I just always look at dime and Vinny at the soundboard. and we go, we got you guys an early Christmas present. You know what I mean? They were like, all right, man, because, you know, the guys were always about having a good time. Oh, yeah.

And they went partying and just barbecuing and whatever. And they go, check this out. We got a little something for you. Yeah. And like, all of a sudden, the guys are just sitting out at the front of house or whatever, just, and then all of a sudden the curtain drops and it just, no, no, no, no.

You know, we, we, new level. And the kabuki comes down, and it's, it's me, Charlie, Philid Rex. And, like, you know, Zach and Charlie wanted to get you, you know, an early, early birthday president or whatever, and they'd be going, I can't believe these jackasses are playing.

You know, because, I mean, they'd be like, I'm just saying, me, if it was Dime doing it, you know, Dime and Vinnie doing it up there with me and Charlie playing either, you know, Ozzy Anthrax songs or Black label, whatever, it would just be like, me and Charlie would be like crying, laughing, you know, and just like watching Dime doing the, soul or no more tears or whatever.

You know, it would sound like dime playing it, you know, regardless, because he's not going to escape that. Dime could play eruption, and it's going to sound, you can listen to it and go, yeah, it sounds like Dime playing eruption. Yeah. Even if it's note for note, is this going to sound like that? Because of his touch and his feel.

So just like when Randy Rhodes is playing paranoid. It sounds like Randy Rhodes playing paranoid. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So, but no, I just always picture them every night. You know what I mean? Just like, I just picture them. they're, you know, because especially when Reed is over there on the side of the stage and everything like that, it's just like, yeah, they would, they'd be, especially those two guys, you know, because they, they just love life so much.

Yeah, one of my favorite memories of Dime is they're playing the Aragon Ballroom, and I'm sure you play there many times, right? You must have. Yeah, totally. So, you know, there's this, like, it's the old school thing where there's like the balcony, you know, like the old, opera singer spot. Totally. So I was up there. and, you know, like typical them, they had me drinking whatever. Oh, yeah, whatever. Or the hell they drank before shows.

And I'm not a drinker. With a spare liver and pancreas on ice. So I'm up there. I'm feeling a little wobbly. And I don't know what the hell they were playing. And Dime spots me. And like he would, he locks eyes with me. And for a minute, he's just looking at me and he's playing the craziest.

Just shredding. It doesn't look at the guitar at all. And he's looking at me like, that thing he would do like, yeah. And I'm like, for a minute he's just playing. I'm like, why are you playing for me, mother. But that's the way he was, right? Totally. It's like, I know you're watching me.

Totally, man. I use the best, without a doubt. So it's beautiful what you're doing. I'm glad to see it because, you know, you'd heard about it through the years. And even the weirdness with the fans and Phil. I'm glad that's all kind of seems to be done. Yeah, well, I just think, I mean, like, anyone that comes and sees it, it's just, I mean, it's, it is what it is, it is a beautiful tribute to the guys. And it really is pretty amazing.

Like, every night, you know, Phil just always asked, he's like, well, how many people, you know, saw Pantera back in the day? And then you'll have, obviously, the Pantera faithful that were like, you know, Zach, I seen him, I seen Diamond Vanney and the fellas when, you know, Phil and Rex when there was like eight people in the club or whatever, you know. And then until when the guys exploded and whatever. So it was just, you have the Pantera faithful. And he's like, all right, how many people, this is their first time ever hearing these songs live? I have to say it's either 75%. I mean, like of the younger kids.

Yeah. Well, that's, but that's, it's about the music. Yeah, like my uncle Zach took me, you know, my uncle Zach always told me about the legend of Pantera and, you know, how great they were. And it was just like this force to be reckoned with. And it's just like, so you have. You know, so now I'm bringing my nephews who are old enough to see it now, you know,

because they were five years old. Yeah. When Pantera. It's great, great songs, too. Great. Well, that's what I always say, what separates, well, what separated Sabbath from everything is not because it's heavy. Yeah.

It's because it's great songs. I mean, you know, so it's just like with our Pantera, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I always, you know, I would say Pantera in, is in their job. of extreme metal. They are the gold standard of where everything, just like how Sabbath and Zeppelin, the stones, the Beatles, are the gold standard. Yeah.

So if it's Southern rock bands, just the Allman Brothers and Skinnerd, or the gold standard of that style of music. So I mean, with extreme, they're all measured by what Pantara set. I think I told this story somewhere else, but I'll tell you to you, because you probably don't know. to you because you probably don't know. It's what I was, I was backstage with them, and it was when Metallic was kind of having trouble

somewhere in the 90s, you know, like fans didn't like the record. It was, I don't remember. On navigating through the crazy years. Whatever. It was just those weird years where they were kind of figuring out what became Metallica 2.0 or whatever.

And, you know, the guys in Pantera being fans were kind of bitching about Metallica. You know what I mean? They were just being how they were, you know, they just drunk right back or whatever. You know what I mean? whatever, it's just the way they were. And I knew them well enough to...

Fellas having a good time. Sure. So they're going on about Metallica. And I just, you know, again, I knew them enough to... I'd heard enough. And I said, shut up. And they all looked at me like, what did you just say to us? And I said, you're the best metal band in the world right now.

You're the best metal band in the world. They'll be fine. Worry about Pantera. And they were all like, they wanted to argue with me, and they were like, you just gave us a compliment? So that's my fun days. But that happens with everybody, whether it be Zeppelin is so huge. Sure.

It comes from a place to love because if you love the band, you're like, Yeah, you wouldn't be concerned with them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally, man. One quick, funny thing. First time I ever heard of Pantera, we were playing Seventh Street entry if you ever played there. That's the side club in Minneapolis.

There's the first. Oh, yeah. Where are the Prince? Yes, but it's the side club. It holds like 300 people. Gotcha. So when we were in indie band in the 80s, you know, we'd go play there. Gotcha.

And we were in there one night and this guy goes, Mother Friars were here last night. You got to hear it. So it's the sound guy. I don't even know the guy. He goes, this band that was here last night. Pantara. What's Pantara?

And he holds up the flyer, and it's when they were doing, they were like the metal. Like the big hair, Pantera? Totally. And he was like, I never heard a band like this in my life. Yeah, the intensity. You know, you just hear this name, and it just lays there for years like Pantera, and then suddenly they burst on the scene whenever.

Like the warrior. You hear the dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, down, and him running out to the ring. There you go. Shaking the ropes. You're smart. It all goes back to wrestling. So it was that type of impact. I want to ask you a little bit because I ran into Vinny a lot in those years after Diamond passed away.

and I know you saw him too. So I feel it's worth talking about Vinny because it was really hard to see how brokenhearted he was. It's not that he wasn't trying to move on with his life. You know, Vinny was Vinny was always going to be a party wherever Vinny was. Yeah, well, you never move on from that. You just, you know. So how did you, as a friend or a compatriot?

You have to carry on, but you know, you never. But how did you perceive that at the time? Like, you know, with Vin, obviously, you know, as friends all support each other. So, but it was just, no, I remember when Vin, you know, it's a weird thing, you know, but that's when you see who your real friends are and over there, you know, because, I mean, between Bride Dog and all the guys in his community. And then, you know, when he started the thing with the hell yeah guys, all the fellas in that camp and the crew and everything like that.

So would always be, you know, around Vin and everything like that. So I mean, but as far as, I always tell everybody, if you ever want to honor Diamond Vinny, it's, it was their love of life. You know, because Vinny, when we were doing Hell Yeah tour, we were doing a Megad tour. So it was, it was Megadeth when Father Dave was, you know, when Disturbed was on hiatus. and he was doing his solo thing at the time, device. And then it was, hell yeah, and then black label. We were all rolling together. I remember Vinny got tickets for me and Phil,

who rolls with black label. We got tickets because we're big New York giant guys. And Vinny being a huge Dallas cowboy guy. So he got tickets. He's like, all right, next season, we're all going to see the Cowboys and the Giants. So Vinny got tickets for that. Obviously, the massive blowout at Vinny's house.

And then we all go to the game. But it was just, but yeah, Vinnie, and then even when we were doing that tour, it was just the way Pantera rolled. It just carried on with that. I mean, it's like every day, massive spread after the gig, you know, when there was loadout going on,

tent would it be Van Halen cranking, Led Zeppelin cranking, Sabbath cranking, I mean, everything. It would just, and just a massive spread of food. you know, ribs and everything like that and stuff, and then we'd have to get you your vegan pie, you know what I mean? We'd have to have the...

Thank you, I appreciate that. Exactly. I can almost hear Vinnie and Dime making fun of me. But they would have said, we made sure we got your vegan. You know they would have got you the vegan dishes. Absolutely. I want to jump in the Ozzy years because, you know,

you were how old when you tried O'Frodden? I was, what, 19 or right before 20 years old? It strikes me because not only, obviously, you got the gig, but you immediately jump in his world and you start contributing. You take him in this different music. It was a weird thing because, I mean, you know, I remember when I was at the audition, it was kind of funny because all the other guys.

Did you fly you out from, like, did they fly you out? They flew me out, yeah, from New Jersey out to L.A., right? Did they fly you coach your first class? I was in luggage, you know. Exactly. Because they didn't know whether it's going to plan out or not. Sharon does watch her pennies. No, mom doesn't.

skimp, you know, she'll take, she takes care of everybody. But, uh, but the whole thing is I came out and I remember, uh, but, you know, some of the guys that were auditioned. It was so weird because everybody was talking about, you know, I hear the gig pays well. I, you know, it's a good opportunity or whatever career opportunity to wear. And all I was I was thinking is, you know, here I am. I've been wearing a Yankee jerks, you know, I'm a fan of the Yankees. Like to me that, that jersey is sacred ground. you know, put Yankee pinstripes on. And, you know, my hero's Thurman Munson. I'm a catcher. And now I'm standing in the same spot. I get it. I get it. So for me, that's how sacred it is.

I get it to me. As a Sabbath guy. Yeah, and like for everybody else. And Ozzy with Rand. I mean, come on. But a lot of other people, they were just like, yeah, whatever. You know, take it or leave. but I think it's a good paying gig.

Well, to make you laugh real quick, we just tried out, we needed a guitar player. So we said, we'll take anybody. We got 10,000 people submitted to be our new guitar player. And, you know, you go through the list, and you pick people who got a little bit of a resume. And you could just see people coming through the door. It's just a gig.

And you're like, this is my life, motherfucker. You know what I mean? Like. You know, somebody, yeah, if they grew up loving the Oakland Raiders, and now they're in Oakland Raider. You know, so it's just like... You could just tell some people it was just another gig.

It was weird to me. It's like, where's your heart in this? Like, if you don't like my music, you probably shouldn't be here. You know what I mean? It's like... Without a doubt. Like, what is that?

So I get it. Like, you was a fan, particularly of Sabbath. You must have been like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I was just hoping to get an autograph and a picture with Ozzy. I can't even believe this is happening. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it was just...

So did you audition with the band? Like, who was the band? Yeah, I played with Randy Castillo was there and Phil Susanne and Phil. I hung out with Randy a couple of times. What a lovely guy. Amazing. Randy was awesome.

Phil's a great guy too. I mean, I hung out with, they made me feel real comfortable. And they were like, yeah, Zach, why don't we do suicide solution?

We'll do crazy train, bark at the moon or whatever. You know, I don't know. And I was like, yeah, let's do it. Any singing or just the band playing instrumental? No, just playing.

You know, Oz wasn't there yet. And then they had me come back the next day, and that's when I met Oz. And, you know, Oz was like, Zuck, just play with your heart and change your pants. Something smells in here. It was after I crapped my pants and then, you know, and then Oz goes,

and then, Zach, go make me a ham sandwich, but go light on the mustard. The Coleman's is a very powerful mustard. It'll overpower the sandwich. So, ever since then, I've been making ham sandwiches for the course, I always say, and going light on the colman's. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, no, but he just, Oz was super cool and everything was great.

And then, you know, we, but it was so funny because Ozzy had said to me, he goes, have I met you before? And I was like, unless I saw him, you know, when on the block of the moon tour, when Motley crew opened up for him when we saw him at, it's either at the garden or the spectrum. And it was just like,

and Oz saw us going nuts under the mezzan level or whatever. Maybe that's the only place you were going to see me, but he was just like, no, I'd seen you somewhere before. And Oz goes, I know where I've seen you. He goes, because Oz never went through any of the tapes. He'd just be like, Billy, Zach, sort out the guitar, you know, and when you get down to the final guys, I'll come down and say hi.

Sure. So, but I guess, you know, my sister took a polaroid of me on my mom and dad's porch, right? And Ozzy said he looked at it, and he goes, oh, look at this little kid. he must really love Randy Rhodes, which we do, still do, always will. But, yeah, but he was just like, that's, I guess that's, Ozzy, he goes, now I remember where I saw it.

Because that was the only picture of, you know, of all the cassettes that I actually took a look at because we're sitting on the kitchen counter in our house. He said, oh, look at this kid, must have really love Randy Rhodes. He goes, I didn't think anything else.

And then that's where I remember seeing you. So you step into this crazy world, Ozzy land. You know. Well, put it this way, when I first joined the band, it was just like, I remember going, obviously, when we were in England and we started writing. And nobody would want to hang with Oz because I was the only one that wanted to hang with them and drink.

So that's why mom eventually, we started calling us the gruesome, too, so, you know, like I remember Bobby Thompson, God bless this all. Bobby had known Ozzy since, like, because he was working with Nazareth back in the 70s and everything, and he knew Ozzy from Sabbath and, you know, how everybody knows everybody in different crews. Yeah, and everybody knows everybody. And then, you know, they were working with, you know, if they're working with Allison Chains, now they're out with, you know, smashing pumpkins, then they're out with black label, then they're out with, you know, Ozzy and everybody's All the crew guys are in, knows everybody.

So they're in different camps. So he started working with Oz when Oz started with Randy and playing the clubs and doing everything like that. So now he's talking with me. And I'm drinking with the boss. And he goes, Sackie, Sacky, you don't want to go drinking with Oz. I go, but I like drinking with Oz. He goes, Zach, you don't want to get into the web.

Stay out of the web. Because he said, because basically what Oz would do is just go, you know, mom would always go, like, who were you out drinking? Well,

I was out drinking with Billy last night and Zachie and Bobby, you know, so then we'd throw everybody under the bus. It's your fault. So Bobby's saying, stay out of the web. But I never got out of the web.

I would always stay with Oz and we'd go drinking all the time. But, yeah, but it was pretty hilarious though, man. but mom called a Barbara Ann, my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, right? And he goes, Barbara Ann, can I speak with her? And Barb's like, well, of course Mrs. Osborne. He goes, does, does Jackie have a drinking problem?

And she goes, oh, no, Zach drinks milk and stuff. And he goes, well, he does now. Oh, my God. But anyways, yeah, so. Whereas my other friends, all my buddies went to college. I'm with Ozzy Osbourne University where I graduated then in cocktails and the art of drinking. You know what I mean? Were you, because I've, you know, I've been around Ozzy a few times and worked with Tony a bit.

It's like it's hard not to ask them the 8,000 questions that you, I know you know him for so long now it wouldn't matter. But when you're first starting with somebody, did you resist the temptation or did you want to jump in? Oh, no, I jumped right in. I love it. There was no resistance. Were you doing like, you know, on Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath, were you doing that stuff? Oh, no, as far as, yeah, Oz would,

and Oz would tell me all the stories. So, like, here I am, like, mega super fan of Saturn, because Sabbath's my favorite band, and then him starting with Randy, and then I love Jake, and then, I mean, they're just his all-as-lo-so-world stuff, and now I'm in the band,

like me playing with the Yankees. And now I get a chance to talk with Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehry, and Yogi Berra and hear all these insane stories and Billy Martin, you know what I mean? It's just like... Did you ever get to go in that locker room? No, I've never toured, you know, and obviously... The old one before they tore it now.

No, but they still had Thurman's Lockerman's locker. You got a quick story for you. Some buddies with David Wells, the great... Yeah, Dave's great. Right, I'm sure you've hung with Dave. So Dave and I were hanging out in New York somewhere when he was pitching for the Yankees. And he left me tickets to a playoff game. So I end up sitting next to Mrs. Shambliss, Christian.

family. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. And very nice. And so I watched the game. And then Dave said, after the game, go here, you know, go stand there. Family area. So I'm standing there and here comes Joe Torrey, wants to talk to me. Recognize me, shook my hand.

I'm like, oh my God, because I said Joe Torrey played when he was with the Mets and like, yeah, totally. Seventy-five or something, right? It's like, oh my God, it's Joe Tori. So I'm standing there and Mr. Tori said to me something like, you waiting for somebody? And I said, well, I think somebody. he's supposed to come get me. He goes, oh, yeah, just stay here. Somebody will come get you to him, so he leaves. And somebody comes, Billy, follow me, Dave, da, da, da, da. So they take me down

into the bowels. I don't know. I have no idea where I'm going. Turn left, turn right, turn left, turn right. Open a door. Now I'm in the Yankees clubhouse. Wow. I'm like, yeah, from the original Yankees team. And by the way, I know enough about sports teams. It's like, be careful if you want to go into clubhouse. You know what I mean? You got to, it's, it's their sacred ground. It's their space, right? Yeah. Yeah. So now I'm talking to David Cohn, you know, who was the great center fielder during those years? Bernie Williams. Bernie. Talking to Bernie. Everyone's being super nice, you know what I mean?

Harold Jacks, Harold used to play for Astros, who was a commentator at the time. I know you know I'm talking about. Harold Reynolds? Harold Reynolds. He's at that point, he's a reporter for ESPN. He turns out and he goes, what the hell you do in here? I'm like, I don't know, somebody brought me in here. Yeah. So, because David, I think, won the, Yankees just signed me. I'm starting tonight. I'm a lefty.

Exactly. I got a good curveball. Anyway, finish the story. So Dave's got to go do post-media because he won the game or something. So I don't know what to do. And I'm like, you know, like you're a little kid. I'm like, you know where to go. So somebody goes.

Just being respectful. Just chill. Absolutely. I know. And Dave's like, no, just stay there. You know how he is. Yeah. Who cares?

Just stay there. Totally. Right. So somebody comes. over and says, go in there and have some food. They had a little catering area. It's like smaller than this area we're in right now. So I go in there. There's nobody in there. And it's obviously the player's food. And the guy who brought me was like a staffer. And he goes, go ahead and have some food. It's all good. So I, you know, I get some mustacholi and so when I wasn't vegan, you know.

And I make my little plate and I'm standing there eating and I feel a tap on my shoulder. And I turn around it's George Steinbrenner. Wow. And I go, and I'm expecting him to rip me apart. Who the hell are you? What are you doing here? He goes, he goes, you like the Yankees? And I mean, I know who he is, right? And I go, I go, honestly, I'm a Cubs guy. And he goes, but do you like the Yankees? And I go, love the Yankees. He goes, is the food good? I'm like, yeah, it's great. He goes, have a great time. Love you to see you here. Wow. That's good with the boss. Yeah, totally. That's my...

But that's great. I mean... But when you're standing there where Ruth stood and... Yeah, totally. It's amazing. Lou Gehrig? Are you kidding me?

Without a doubt. As a baseball fan, I get chills just telling you. It's like... No, totally. It's cool. That's why I'm saying. It is pretty crazy.

You know, I mean, I love new stadiums. But like, I just hope they never tear Fenway down or Wrigley. We just played Fenway with Green Day and Wrigley. Yeah. Dude. I mean, come on. I mean, amazing. But what I'm saying is like the same thing they tour Yankee Stadium.

down and I'm saying like they build a new Fenway park you know and it's and it's bigger and it's better and more modern you know stuff and everything like that it's just like yeah but it's I mean something has to be said you know because in Vegas too they just knock everything down no but nothing has any yeah nothing sacred in Vegas for sure yeah where you would think of the sands like if we owned it I would keep it exactly the way it was Frank was here when Frank and the fellas there when the rat pack was there and literally leave the hotel the way it was and the suites the way they were the sammy suite the frank suite the dean and everything like that and literally the TVs everything maybe change the carpeting so the carboning's fresh or whatever but

exact same carving so it's literally a time warp and then build on to the hotel with the modern stuff so you know as people go oh man you stay in the in the original or the back. The Frank, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And it would be, you know, we charge a ton for the evening that you spend in the Frank Sweden, you have dinner and the whole nine yards. But, like, make a big thing out of it, but it's just like something has to be said about

the old ballparks, like Fenway and you have Wrigley. So you're doing what I called If I ruled the World. Yes. So this is if Zach ruled the world. Yes. I want to live in the world you're ruling because it's a truth. It sounds good to me. You know what I mean?

Like CBGBs. I never got a chance to play that. Did you ever put? Twice. But that's why I'm shocked that, like, by the way, the punk rock community didn't purchase it. Crazy, right? And just leave it.

Make it a museum or something. Or keep it still, so it's still running. I'm just saying, so let's say if Johnny Liden actually bought it and owns it. Sure. You know, and it's just like, who owns it? Or some billionaire owns it and says Johnny Liden owns it, right? And he's the ambassador of the club. Sure.

See, exactly. You know what I like it? We should do a whole. Next time you come back, we'll do it. If Zach ruled the world. Yeah, like, what about history here, man? You know what I'm doing? No, and actually talking about history on the Hendrish Experience thing, right?

Because we're doing that right now, which is always a blast. The owner brought out Jimmy's White Stratt. Oh, wow. The one that he played the National Anthem on at Woodstock. The Woodstock. Did you get to play it? Yeah, I just knew it around it for a little bit. But, I mean, I'm just saying the magic.

I'm super jealous right now. Yeah. I mean, well, it's the same thing with any of Randy's guitars or Eddie's guitars. You know, like, what is the guitar Ed played on eruption? I mean, that's the historic value on that alone. Yeah. The recording of that, you know what I mean? Or Jimmy Page's double necks and, you know.

Sure. I mean, like how you said, like all these guitars that go for auction, whether it was, what was it, Kirkobains, the acoustic, you know, that he used on. Well, that's a funny story. I don't know if you know that story. Oh, what the, how it was bought at an auction. No, no. how the guy who sold it got it.

How, what happened on that? He was married to Francis. Oh. And in the divorce or something, he claimed, at least this was the story that I saw. I don't know if it's true, but he claimed that she gave it to him. Oh, boy.

Like, she should be owning that guitar. I've known, you know, I've known Francis since she was in the crib, so it was a hard story to see, you know. Yeah. That's a funky one. Just buy it back. Back to you. There you go.

If we ruled the world. Maybe we'll roll the world together. Do the right thing. I'll deal with the vegan alternative side. You deal with the ribs and the Yankees. In doing the research, I mean, I kind of knew these things, but you know, you're kind of reminded that Bob Daisley played on the first record you did with Ozzy, right? That's not. Yeah.

But then in Aussie world, of course, then Gyser ends up coming back for the tour. Totally. So now you're playing in half a Sabbath. Beth. You must have totally geeked out. I mean, Geyser's unbelievable. And Bob Daisley's amazing too. And Bob's amazing as well. But Geyser, without a doubt.

Gyser plays such cool stuff. Actually, Bob is ridiculous, too. I mean, his baselines are, you know, because Bob's a huge Jameson, Paul McCartney guy and everything like that. And same thing with Gieser. Yeah. But Gyser plays this weird way where it's like he makes the songs heavier. Because if you really listen to Sabbath guitar,

He's playing some amazing riff, but it's really Gyser that gives it this kind of the weird. No, it's amazing. Their base playing is just ridiculous. I mean, aside of either whether they're going to double the riff or they're going to play some counterpoint to a riff. I just saw that and I just, I had to ask you. It is pretty amazing. You know, because Giza was another one like Ozzy where I could pick his brain about Sabbath things. And it was just like.

Well, Giza used to write a lot of the lyrics. Here's a good one. When we were doing the Osmosis record with Geiser was back together on that one when we did, you know, with Perry Mason and C on the other side and everything like that. So we were recording a bunch of it with Dean Kastanova. It was Dean, Gieser, me, and Oz, right, with Michael Beinhorn, was working on that record with us. So, but Mikey, we were recorded the drums in Paris, and then we came back to New York, and we were recording. I mean, so I had a blast making that record as far as, like, going out to all the, we were right over.

off right in the center of like Paris so we'd be going out the whiskey bars every night just hanging out after we got on track and then the same thing in New York City so it was just a blast all the time but I remember with I remember there was this place in New York City called the Magical Child Accult Bookstore right

it's not there anymore but it was like this legendary occult bookstore where everything was in it you had you had Christianity everything in there Catholicism and Crowley Satanism Crowley You had Wicca, you had everything, it was one-stop shopping, occult bookstore, right?

On every religion. So I remember going in there, and it's just epic. At first I bought, so I got some books, I got the Satanic Bible and some books on Crowley. You know, just like I was going to do a book report on, like, who's Babe Ruth? What's the big deal with this Bay Bruth guy, right? Like, what's the big deal with Crowley and why is everyone so enamored? So I get a couple of Crowley books, obviously the Satanic Bible, all this Anton LeVay stuff. And then, so they had a mural, I mean, Alice Crowley.

And I go, how much for the painting? I mean, the poster. I had to ask him. Like, Bill, if you were to be able to bet. How much for the band? The guy goes, $6.66. I go, awesome. I go, here's seven bucks.

Keep the change. Yeah, right. So anyways, I get all this stuff. So we're tracking in the studio. I got the picture of Crowley up on the wall. There's this mural of them. I got a picture of Jimmy Page up on the wall, a picture of Jimmy Hendrix,

a poster of Jimmy Hendrix up on the wall because I was at some record stores. So I got all this stuff up on the wall. And I remember Oz comes in a one day. And he goes, I'm tracking guitars. And he goes, he's just looking at the picture. He's telling me, he sees the picture of Jimmy Page. And he goes, oh, man, he goes, Zach.

I remember me in Bonzo. and he's telling me these amazing Bonzo stories. The Sabbath and Zeppelin Camp from Tate. Yeah, totally. Yeah, well, from Birmingham and everything like that. But he said, you know, it was mostly John Bonham that he was buddies with. So, you know, the rest of the guy, and Robert, he kind of knew Robert. But, you know, but it was more John where they'd go out drinking and getting hammered.

So he was telling me some hilarious stories with the two of them. And then he goes, talking about Jimmy Hendricks. He goes, I remember me and Giza went and so on. We were like, this can't be real. you know, when he was playing behind his head, with his teeth, they were going, this has got to be the tape. This is, you know, because they said it just didn't even look real.

And then he goes, he goes, sack, who's the bold-headed on the wall? And I go, you would have been there. I go, Oz, you don't know where that is? And he just goes, who is this? I go, come on, Oz, you. You don't know who that is it?

I go, you've been singing about him since like 1979, 1980. Oh, come on, who is it? I go, you don't know who that is. He goes, oh, where the fuck is it? I go, Oz, that's Alistair Crowley. Alistair Crowley. And he goes, and he walks up to the poster and he stares. He goes, oh, is that what he looks like?

And then he goes, geez is sitting. there and Giesie goes, here's the, here's the, Anton LeVay, where have I heard that name? And Gieser goes, because the satanic Bible

was sitting in the thing, and he goes, because Gyser knows all about it. You know, he's well read on it, you know, if you ask him about baseball players, just like what number was,

you know, Mickey Mantle, a rookie season, he was six, and he turns it to seven, you know, because they wanted in succession or what he could tell you the history on the players

or whatever. What number was Thurman, Munson, he was number 15. You know, whatever. So it's just like, Gieser's the, you know, the college professor of the occult stuff with the Sabbath guy. So Gieser could tell you who they are.

And he just goes, he goes, geez, who's that Anton LeVay? Who do I know that name for you? He goes, you remember when we had the record release party? Uh-oh. In California, in San Francisco, they had on California, where the, the, the Church of Satan was. Yeah. He goes,

they had a record release party like a parade of, exactly, well, it's a condo now, right? So it's just like, he goes, but we had, they had a record, you know, Warner Brothers had a record release party

for the first album. For the first album? Yes, for the very first Sabbath album. And Oz goes, oh, oh, he was the guy with the shaved heads. And he goes, yeah, yeah, that's Anthony LeVay.

And Oz goes, oh, oh, I remember. now. No wonder why the album didn't do as well as it could have. Yeah. I'm just saying it's awesome. I mean, Oz

has zero clue who any of these people are nor zero interest. Like he has kind of like a brief knowledge of some of who these people are. But it's just like, but he has him

like World War II. He loves him. You know, quizzes. Yeah, if he was on Jeopardy for World War II, I'll take, you know, 500 for that question of this one. Yeah, without a doubt. I love Michael Beinhorn as a person. As a producer, I didn't see I die with him, and a lot of people didn't see eye to eye with him. And I'm not asking for dirt.

No, but it's weird because I know I've heard those stories, but I, me or Mikey got along great. But I mean. But didn't, just start you to frame it slightly a bit, but it seemed. It seems like, and you know, you just reading stuff, except, you know, I'm asking you, because you were there. But it seems like that's where things start to get a little weird, you know, that, was it career insecurity for Ozzy? Because, like, I've read something about even Steve I was write songs with them. No, I think it was, um. I'm just saying, I'm trying to understand the atmosphere that led to you leaving.

No, when I understand. And I'm not looking for dirt. I'm just trying to understand. No, I'm saying it's like when we did, obviously when we came. back to do osmosis in 95. You know, because obviously no more tears was 91, 92, whatever. And then we did live it, live and loud, the live album. And then we had like, see on the other side and there was some other songs that were ready to go.

But they didn't put it on, you know, they were going to be bonus tracks. But then it came over to when we did osmosis. That's when Oz was, you know, jamming with Steve, wrote my little man. and some other ones on there. I remember I had to call Steve up. I called Steve up, and I'm like, Father Steve, what's the tuning on this sitar? And, you know, I had to get the TV.

He was like, Zach, it's this, that, and the other. You know, I was like, Steve, thanks, buddy. So it was nothing like they were trying to replace you. No, Oz was just writing with other people because I was out, you know, you're out doing smashing pumpkins. You know, it's just like, while Billy's out doing this, I'll work with other people. I'm just trying to understand some of this.

It just doesn't seem to be good information. I mean, I see the things where it was like, and it sounds like Ozzie. kind of half joking, like he was turning my band into Black Label Society or, you know, but it doesn't sound credible to me, but I'm asking you. Put it this way. I mean, like everyone always asks, my relationship with Ozzy and mom, you know, I lovingly always refer to her as mom because he's been like my mother since I've been 19, 20 years old,

you know, so, but no, and Oz has been like, like, you know, I always said I had the two coolest guys growing up between my father, who's a World War II vet, D-Day Omaha Beach. and Ozzy. So I could always ask them for advice. Oz's like an older brother. You know what I mean? Like he's like 20 years older than me. So and the way my kids are, our oldest son to our youngest son. So but it's just like, so I could always ask those two for advice on anything. And they would always just go, come here. Come here. Come here. I go, yeah. They would just poke me in the eye. And I go, why did you do that? And they go, just because. Yeah, yeah. So, but anyways, that would be the, you. the advice. So I really didn't learn anything, but, you know, so, but that's what it would be.

But, but the whole thing is, uh, no, my relationship with Oz and, and Sharon is, it's always been to this day, like when we text them or talk with them or get together, it's just like, if they said, Oz was like, Zach, do me a favor. Can you come over and clean the house and clean the dog run? Me and Sharon have to go do a business meeting. We're having company come over tonight. It's like, ah, there's no problem. I would just go do it. Yeah. It's, you know, like you would for your parents. It's more like, family. Yeah, without a doubt.

So, Oz, if he needs me to play on something, I play on it. But what was the professional circumstance of it all? Because, wait, stuff. You were writing hits with him, right? Yeah, yeah, when we did no more tears and obviously no rest. But, like, I think when I started doing, you know, with Black Label, I just started going along, Oz was just like, well, Zach's got his own, Zach's his own guy now. So he was just like.

Did he almost kind of want you to graduate into your own life? Yeah, it's just like Zach's out of the nest now. He's just like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Black Little Society. And I don't take offense to that because if Randy would have went on to keep doing Quiet Riot, he would have been like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Quiet Riot now. Even though Randy's coming back and playing a new riff called I don't know. Is it because he wants complete focus on what he's doing? Yeah, or just like it is what it is.

And if Jake went on and he was doing Badlands and continued doing Badlands and then coming back, he would have said, it's like I'm a lead singer in Badlands now, you know, Even though Jake's coming in with this riff called Bark at the Moon. And it's like, ah, the minute you sing on it, it's New Ozzy. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's just like, like, I mean, especially with me, I mean, in that black label soup, you're always tasting being that I'm a, I'm a graduate of Lord Iommi University,

as you are, and Jerry Cantrell and all of us. I mean, Kim Thail and Chris, like, we all are disciples of Lord Iommi. and his writing. Totally. So the whole thing is it's just, it's going to be in there, in the soup somewhere. So, but it's just like when I'm jamming something, you know, whether it's just like soon as Ozzy would sing on,

if Ozzy sang on Stillborn, which he did in the chorus, but if Oz sang the whole song, that's a new Ozzy song. If Ozzy sang on the gallows, the brand new one. Yeah. That's a new Ozzy song. That kind of a cool sabbathie. Of course, there's Sabbath floating around there all the time, and there always will be,

That's what that's the flavor that I like. Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying, but it's just like, but yeah, so, but I think I completely understand what Oz is saying in that regard. He's just like, I don't want to be the lead singer in quiet ride or bad lands or they sit you down and say, we love you, do your thing and we're here for you or is it like you get a call? No, he did. He sat me down just like we're sitting right now and he said, Zach, stand up for saying, come here. I said, yeah, he poked me, and I go make my ham sandwich,

and I go and go light on, and I was like, because I go light on the mustard. Coleman's, though, always Coleman's. No, but so, yeah, Bill, he would be saying the same thing to you. It's just like, everything sounds like smashing pumpkins now. You know, and you're like, Zach, you would go, listen to this rip. I go, what do you think? And I go, there's a lot of Sabbath floating around in that meal.

You know what I mean? And you'd go, I know, and I was just telling me it's something. sounds like smashing bumpkins. I go, well, you know what I mean? Yeah. And same thing. If Father Cantrell, Jerry was playing a riff, he would go, it sounds, I don't want to be the lead singer in Allison James.

And I completely get it, man. You know, when you left, it was 95, six somewhere in there. Yeah, 96. So it's a little bit blurry in my mind because that's when we were touring like crazy. You know how it is. It's like stuff happens and you hear about it, but it doesn't process the same as if you interested in home and watching an MTV news or something, right? No, I mean, at that point when, that's when Joe Holmes, I'm friends with Joe

Holmes, Joe's an amazing player, and that's when they got Joe to come in, because I was playing with G&R at the time as well, in between all the, oh, I didn't know that. Osmosis, and then coming back, I remember, because Slash, they were talking about, I think Gilby had left the band, and so Axel was like, well, who were we going to get on guitar? I didn't even know that part. I guess Slash just threw around. He's like, well, you know, my name came in the mix or whatever. And Axel goes, you know, I'll just, I'll reach out to Zach.

I never spoke to Axel before. So, but I knew, how long did that go on for? Well, I knew, I knew Slash when I first joined Ozzy. You know, that's when Guns was blowing up. And then, and I knew Stephen. And then I had, obviously, I knew Matt from when he was with the Col. you know from when Firewoman and all that stuff because he was good buddies with Randy

Castillo so you know and once again we all everybody kind of knows each other and they're all friends so but Slash you know so I was like well why don't we ask Zach if he wants to do it or whatever and so they actual called me up he was like Zach you want to get together in jam I was like all right well yeah

we'll see what happened right so I remember they had a rehearsal joint all set up and I remember it was me, Matt, Dizzy was thrown down on the keys, and then you had slash and Duff, I mean, Matt and myself, and Axel.

And so we were down there jamming and noodle and ideas, and then we recorded a couple riffs, like the rose pedal garden, and I ended up on the first black label album. But it was just like we had some riffs laying around, but it's just like nothing was kind of materializing with it, and then it was just like,

I remember Oz was like, Zach, are you going to do this thing with the fellas? Or are we doing this thing? I see, I see, yeah, see. And then I was like, Oz, let me call up and see if I can get an answer from the guys. Because I don't know either, because I'm just sitting, you know, like, I can't tell you yes or no. Because I don't know what's going on with the guys. So it was just like, you know, it was just kind of going on and nothing was happening. So I remember Oz was just, you know, getting ready to release the Osmosis album and getting ready to tour.

I think, and Oz was just like, Zach, sit down. Yes. Come here, a little closer. And so, it poked me in the eyes again. He goes, Zach, you make me a ham sandwich. I'm going to get Joe Holmes to come play for a little while, and then we'll see where it happens from there.

But yeah, that's how it kind of, that's what happened. Yeah. And then so nothing, and then I was kind of like, well, Bill, what am I going to do? Then the Guns and Roos's thing wasn't happening. I'm not playing with the boss anymore. Sure. I'm like, well, I better figure something out.

Yeah. And, you know, I just released Book of Shadows, which I loved doing, because when we were doing osmosis, it was this place called Brews on 34th in Lexington. It was just like probably been there from 1908. So I would go after we got done tracking every day, I'd go in the bruise and just lit there. They had an amazing jukebox in there.

I'd just be drinking until like six in the morning every night at the bar, just me and you solving the problems of the world, hanging out. And then jukebox had to have the stone. in there, Bob Seeger, Neil Young, just like all this eagles, all this amazing, you know, just all acoustic mellow, amazing stuff. So I'd be listening to that all night long.

Yeah. And I remember just going back into my room, my acoustic, and just writing. And then, so I had all that stuff, and then that's when I did the Book of Shadows thing after Osmosis. Right. Did a short tour behind that,

and then, like, after we got done with that, I was like, what am I going to do? I'm not ready to be James Taylor like a singer-songwriter. Right. Yeah.

I still want to play heavy stuff. So that pretty much out of you know, being in the middle of the Atlantic with one oar. I'm like, Bill, do you see any land? You're like, no, but we better

start rolling. Did you? You know, we're going to die out here. No, there are no options. You better, there was, there were, I never thought to myself, like with Ozzy, with Sabbath. Well, I guess the dream is over.

It was just like, no, I'm not going to go back to having some crummy job that I can't stand. So it was just like, we are going to find land. And that's it, or we're going to die out here. You know how this town could be, though. Did you kind of feel that cold wind that blows sometimes when people think, you know, when you're with the Aussie, that's a big gig? Well, that's the security blanket of having your mom and dad's house. And now you're, you don't have that security. Did you see people change the way they were acting around you?

Do you feel that? No, I mean, if anything, it's, you know, you have, it's like, wow, this is, this is kind of exciting because we have our own apartment now. You know what I mean? And now, yeah, me and you were going to start our own little coffee shop. And we're going to start our own business from being, you know, me and you work in McDonald's. And now we're going to start our own little burger stand. Yeah. I think what's so cool is, because like I said, it's fuzzy in my mind, but I remember hearing that you left.

and then at some point that you were starting black label. And I think what's so cool is you did it the hard way. You took it to the fans. You built that thing up literally from the ground up. Printing the merch ourselves and then taking all the merch orders, and I remember writing a thank you letter, and then putting it in the manila envelopes, and me and you bringing them down to the post office

and mailing out these black label smashing pumpkin t-shirts with thank you letters on them. But so it went from, like you said, playing with Ozzie to arenas and stadiums and festivals or whatever to now me and you were playing in clubs with like five people in there that don't even. And you're married and you got kids. So it's part of the dynamic. Yeah. So what I'm just saying is, and I always tell all kids, I go, you know, whether somebody's like, you have advice for my son or daughter, you know, because they're, I go, yeah, just play what you love. And there are no options.

There are no other eggs in your basket. Because if you know you have eggs in your basket, then you're not going to, if you're out in the middle of the Atlantic and we just got a boat and we got oars. I'm like, Bill, we're either going to die out here. Do you see any land anywhere? You're like, Zach, I don't see anything. There's no arenas in the middle of the ocean as well. That's what I'm saying. We better start rowing.

So in your mind's eye, because you, you know, from my perspective, everything you've touched has been successful. I think it's a testament to your talent. I, you know, I mean, I'm just saying, I think if anything, you know, just like, well, you know, you got to, it's just, everything in life is based, when I look at my father, him being an orphan and then straight to World War II, then I remember his first wife, Marilyn, died. I remember my grandmother and my aunt in Asbury Park. That was from my dad's first wife who died of cancer. So he remarried my mother and had me and my sister. But they were our grandmother and aunt,

and that was my dad's first wife, like her mother. I see, I see. So he went over there every weekend, changed the light bulbs, clean the apartment. He never lost touch with him. Wow. And then... I get it.

Well, no. Then after my mother did. dying and my dad just everything is based for me on strength toughness and perseverance you just got to have that

I get it you have to that's what I'm trying to convey to you brother to brother you know I really respect that you took a situation that would in many ways throw people off you went right back at it you worked and you built this thing

with your own hands. And I think it's so awesome. Because most people, they just don't have that inner strength to do that. Well, like I said, I mean, like I love doing everything that I'm truly, but I make the good Lord every day for everything I have and being on this ultimate podcast as well. So, I mean, but, no, and the same thing with, even with the ultimate warrior. I mean, the reason why I'd always dug him so much even when it just because of his, his, the app, I mean, in all his quotes that he has.

all the time as well. You just have no belief. He lived it. Others say about you or anything. It's just everything is just brute force. Yeah. You know. Yeah, without a doubt.

So it's just like, you can have the compassion of Jesus Christ and the brute force of the ultimate warrior, Dick Butkus and Genghis Khan, as far as the determination and the work ethic. It just, you just, there is no, you think we're going to, it's no, you just do it. Have you ever heard this story where warrior asks, Vince McMahon for a quarter million dollars or he wasn't going to go through the

Christmas slam or what was it? Yeah. I heard that story from Sergeant Slaughter. That's an amazing story. Well, George Slaughter is really not a big fan of the warrior. Is the ultimate puke to him. So, you know. Did you ever meet Sergeant Slaughter? No, I've never met him. It's great. Great. Great. Amazing. No, I'm sure all the guys are great. I mean, we know all the politics that goes on with all that stuff. I mean, that's a whole other world of insanity. Well, I think you know, I live it every day in the National Wrestling Alliance.

Yeah, you own a wrestling. Yeah. And by the way, Bubba Dudley always says amazing things about you. I love, I love Bubba. Bubba tells a story the first time he saw me in ECW locker room because Just Incredible had brought me in there. Oh, okay. You know, what we were talking about locker rooms.

Now I'm in the ECW locker room. And Bubba squares me up from across the locker room. And he's thinking, who the hell is this person in my locker room and he's about ready to come over and kill me. Somebody says, you know, that's the... It's going to be your future boss. Yeah, yeah.

Who's that? Who's that? I can't do the blah, but... Totally. Last thing. Thank you for indulging me. First of all, because I've seen you play live and even though I was watching some clips in anticipation of re-interview,

I don't know how you play so aggressively and so clean. It blows my mind. I've never seen anyone with your level of attack, but you play flawlessly. I don't get it. I don't know if it's so flawlessly, but you can always get better.

I'll put it this way. I wish I could play like you. All right, well. I agree. I really mean that. I'm really, I'm really, you're on our band. I've known JD's, it was 17.

No, let's rethink that one. He goes, stick with smashing pumpkins. All right, I'm going to go to the video tip. I'm going to slow it down and see if you miss one of it. J.D. would go. Like you said, like I play a lot of hammer on. you know, I don't know where that it came from, maybe just laziness, but you know, you're very,

like you said, you pick every note. And to me, I mean, I watch you play for an hour and just like, what does he mess up? I don't see it. No, there's definitely clankers in there, but I mean, there's a lot of delay or something. Yeah. One thing I thought just in poking around, because I want to know what your future plans are. I mean, obviously you have your band, but you've ever thought doing like the kind of the all-star records not the best but it's like you get to get your friends together just tons of guests and stuff like you're traveling willberries well you did the you did the record that andrewatt did with Ozzy you know yeah no you were on that tony's on that yeah i thought it was a pretty good record you know um there's a lot of cool

stuff on that but i was just wondering from your perspective because um i thought it'd be interesting to hear you i'm not saying like carlo santana but you know you did that record, but I'd be interesting if there was a record built around your guitar playing, but that showed different modalities of your guitar playing? I bet. Because I saw an interview recently, and it was before I knew I was going to interview you, where you were talking about Joe Pass and people you really... Yeah, so I was like, it would surprise me.

Oh, yeah, with Neil Torrell, though. Yeah, I was like, you know, it's like most metal guys don't name check Joe Pass. You know what I mean? So that told me as a fellow guitar player, like, oh, this guy's really studying the game, you know? Because a lot of metal guys, they're really one-lane guys, and you know them. They're your friends. Nothing wrong with it. No, no, I agree.

I mean, it's whatever you're into. You know, it's so funny, like, we were talking about, like, you know, whether you like different music, we just happen to like, I love yacht rock. I love Christopher Cross. I'll listen to everything like that. Christopher Cross is your secret. Amazing, you know what I mean? Actually, Steve, look, and Luke's out with him right now. Christopher Cross and Toto, right?

So, no, but it's just, I love that, like, all the new wave essentials. whether it's Howard Jones and Gary Newman. You ever see Howard Jones when he had a mime? No, I never saw that. Check that clip out. He's on American bandstand, I think. Oh, wow. It's when he's blowing up.

Okay. And there's that song, What is Love? Yeah, totally, which is a huge hit. So Dick Clark's interviewing him, and he goes, so who's the other fella? He's like, well, you know, it gets a little boring with me, just playing keyboard to sing. So I brought this mime.

And he literally has a mime when he's singing fucking song. Dude. That is so great. You want to put some, some zip in your coffee. That is some other shit. I'll have to check that out.

See? But, uh, I got my new wave knowledge. It would have out of doubt. But I mean, it's just like, I love, I love all of it.

So, I mean, it's just like, but I remember reading this one quote with Johnny Winter. And they said, well, Johnny,

have you ever listening? He goes, no, he goes, the only, like, I tell younger kids, you know,

like, Jackie got any advice for my son and my daughter. I'm like, Whatever music it is that moves you, because I go, if it moves you, then that's... That's good music.

And you can feel it, then that's what you should be doing. I just would like to hear you... I love your playing. I list you play all day. But it would be interesting to hear you put into different contexts. Oh, yeah, I think what you were saying, like, different types of things. But, I mean, it's just like... But it is true.

I mean, like talking about... Like you with Jerry Cantrell would be. be amazing. I think Jerry, great writer. Jerry's amazing. You know how to write. Like you two together, that'd be cool. You would Chino Moreno of deaf tones. I mean, Chino's got such a cool voice to be interesting to hear. Yeah, with all different, you know, like you said, traveling wheelbaries are doing or yourself, get yourself in this thing, you know. Maybe we'll have to, we'll have to put this thing together. There you go. We rule the world. Yes. That's a great place. Thank you, Zach. Hi, man. Great time. Appreciate it, Boba, Bill. Thank you very much, buddy.