The Majority Report with Sam Seder - 3573 - Epstein Survivors vs White House; RFK, Jr vs Public Health w/ Jonathan Cohn

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

It's a solo Sam Hump Day on the Majority Report On today's show: Rep Thomas Massie (R-KY) and Rep Ro Khanna (D-CA) host a press conference at Capitol Hill with several survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sex traffic ring. Speaker Mike Johnson throws his own simultaneous press conference in a sad attempt to distract people from the Epstein survivors. JB Pritzker claims that Trump has been staging the Texas National Guard for deployment to Chicago. Writer at the Bulwark, Jonathan Cohn joins the show to discuss the chaos around HHS/CDC and RFK, Jr's destruction of public health. In the Fun Half Dave Rubin avoids the topic of Republican's views on gay marriage with a mysterious mic issue. While claiming a video of someone throwing a black garbage bag out of a second story Whitehouse window was fake, Trump claims that if something bad happens he will blame it on AI. All that and more. The Congress switchboard number is [phone]. You can use this number to connect with either the U.S. Senate or the House of Representatives. Become a member at JoinTheMajorityReport.com: https://fans.fm/majority/join Follow us on TikTok here: https://www.tiktok.com/@majorityreportfm Check us out on Twitch here: https://www.twitch.tv/themajorityreport Find our Rumble stream here: https://rumble.com/user/majorityreport Check out our alt YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/majorityreportlive Gift a Majority Report subscription here: https://fans.fm/majority/gift Subscribe to the ESVN YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/esvnshow Subscribe to the AMQuickie newsletter here: https://am-quickie.ghost.io/ Join the Majority Report Discord! https://majoritydiscord.com/ Get all your MR merch at our store: https://shop.majorityreportradio.com/ Get the free Majority Report App!: https://majority.fm/app Go to https://JustCoffee.coop and use coupon code majority to get 10% off your purchase Check out today's sponsors: BLUELAND: Right now, get 15% off your first order by going to Blueland.com/majority FAST GROWING TREES: Get 15% off your first purchase.  FastGrowingTrees.com/majority DELETEME: Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/MAJORITY and use promo code MAJORITY at checkout. SUNSET LAKE:  Head to SunsetLakeCBD.com and buy any three 4-packs, and you’ll get a fourth one for free. Just add four 4-packs to your cart and use the code LABORDAY25 at checkout Follow the Majority Report crew on Twitter: @SamSeder @EmmaVigeland @MattLech Check out Matt’s show, Left Reckoning, on YouTube, and subscribe on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/leftreckoning Check out Matt Binder’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/mattbinder Subscribe to Brandon’s show The Discourse on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/ExpandTheDiscourse Check out Ava Raiza’s music here! https://avaraiza.bandcamp.com/

You are listening to a free version of The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. To support this show and get another 15 minutes of daily program, go to Majority.fm. Please. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Wednesday. September 3rd, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. five-time award-winning majority report.

We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, Jonathan Cohn, writer at the bulwark on Robert Kennedy's assault. on our health care. Also on the program today, Capitol Hill Epstein victims call on the White House and Congress to actually release all the files. Meanwhile, one of the most conservative federal courts in the country,

the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, rejects Trump's use of the alien and Act to deport immigrants. Trump prepping Texas National Guard to invade Illinois. This amid calls for Pritzker to use the Illinois Guard to stop them. Judge Ischie's remedy in the Google case, and it is barely a slap on the wrist. Jeffreys and Schumer tee up next capitulation on budget negotiations. Federal court reinstates the FTC commissioner illegally fired by Donald Trump.

And the U.S. blows up a boat in the Caribbean, killing 11 people by claiming it was full of drug dealers. U.S. appeals court allows Trump to cancel $16 billion in EPA grants to NGOs fighting climate change issued under Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. Lastly, Israel calls up reservists as it preps its next slaughter, this of Gaza City. All this and more on today's majority report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. It is Humpty. Emma Vigland out today, so I get to say it. Thanks for joining us. We've got a lot to get to today. Right now, as we speak on Capitol Hill, there are dueling press conferences. Mike Johnson, so desperate. You'll remember, he recessed Congress early. about six weeks ago to avoid an attempt

by Congressman Massey and Kana to use a discharge petition to bring to the floor a vote on whether to release all

of the Epstein files. A discharge position requires only a it basically is a way of going around leadership. and going around the controlling party by getting a majority of congresspeople to sign it. Now, he has all the Democrats.

Off the top of my head, it's like 2.17. And he has three Republicans at this point, Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Bobert, and one other, including himself. I guess that's four. And he needs, I think, three. other Republicans to get that discharge petition. But the White House is desperately lobbying, desperately, desperately,

lobbying Republicans to vote no on bringing this to the floor. And that's why, as you have multiple Epstein victims on Capitol Hill, giving a press conference, literally as we speak, Mike Johnson's attempting to distract. from it by having his own press conference i don't know what he's talking about that he thinks would distract from this maybe maybe he's showing people the stuff that his son keeps him from viewing on his phone or something i'm not sure here is a um clip and we'll have more of this uh tomorrow because like i say it's ongoing but here is uh massy yesterday making the point that the White House and the Republican leadership is desperately trying to whip votes against a discharge petition.

Well, the question is, why are they doing a pressure? Why are they doing that? Why do they? Because they don't want the files released. Look, if my legislation were redundant, why would the White House be trying to stop it? it's not reductive there's there are things that the white house doesn't want out there that uh my legislation would cause to be released and that even the white house doesn't believe that the oversight committee has released everything that's the point they've uh yesterday they did this big document dump but it turns out you know so far uh people are like there's nothing new here this is all just sort of like extraneous this is a classic document dump 60 000 documents

very little information in it and it's a way of distracting people. Here is a Massey today on the hill as they start to introduce the different victims and remember now, you've got

Republicans out there. What's that guy, the one who got shoved by McCarthy? I can't remember. Tim Burchard. Tim Burchett. It's out there going like, well, I don't know if we should do this because it could ruin the privacy of the Epstein victims. And of course, you've got, I don't know how many are up there, but at least maybe close to half a dozen, maybe more, who are literally, publicly speaking, release these files.

Here is Massey introducing this. And I guess Roe Kana is speaking right now, but here is Massey from earlier. I think it's shameful that this has been called a hoax. Hopefully today, we can clear that up. This is not a hoax. This is real. There are real survivors. There are real victims to this criminal enterprise.

And the perpetrators are being protected because they're rich and powerful and political donors to the establishment here in Washington, D.C. Um, hard to argue. Hard to argue with that point. Uh, Rokana is speaking, I think, uh, right now. now probably making a similar argument and also raising the fact that Republicans are desperately being lobbied by the White House to keep this stuff under wraps, which seems a little bit suspicious. At one point, you just want to move on. Here is this first Epstein survivor. Her name is Lisa Phillips. This was her speech this morning.

Congress must choose. Will you continue to protect predators or will you finally protect survivors? Transparency is justice, release the files, end the secrecy, and stand with us in declaring that no one, no billionaires, no politicians, not world leaders, is above the law. And let me announce now, several of us. us, Epstein survivors have been discussing creating our own list of names. Now, we know the names. Many of us were abused by them. Now, together as survivors, we will confidentially compile the names. We all know we're regularly in the Epstein world.

And it will be done by survivors and four survivors. no one else is involved stay tuned for more details on that because history is watching and so are the women who will come after us I imagine there's people probably within

I don't know several miles of those speakers who are a little nervous about that meters yeah meters very well possibly Here is Marina Lacerda, also an Epstein survivor, and asking one of the biggest questions, and apparently Acosta is going to be testifying behind closed doors in about two weeks to the government oversight committee as to his involvement. was formerly a Trump's labor secretary, and before that, he was the U.S. attorney who gave Epstein a sweetheart deal and claims it was because the CIA told him he was an asset. He belonged to intelligence.

That's what he was told. Or that's what he's told us. That's what he was told by somebody, and who he was told that by is still. unclear? Unclear. But here's Marina Lecerda. Worst part is that the government is still in possession right now of the documents and information about that could help me remember and get over all of this maybe and help me heal. They have documents with my name on them that were confiscated from Jeffrey Epstein's house.

and could help me put the pieces of my own life back together, but I don't have any of it. And I know the same is true for many of these women. We are here to support this bill today, not only for transparency, but for the American people. But if the government is going to release this documents to the public, describing the crimes committed by Jeffrey, Epstein, and others, the least they take and do is give me my documents that they have about me. The other survivors deserve the same respect from our government.

While our identifying information must be redacted to the public, it is equally important to provide the victims themselves with unredacted information. I will never forget when the FBI agents showed up in my door in 2008. Jeffrey Epstein hired a lawyer to represent me, or more like to represent him, I'd like to say. I couldn't ask any questions, and I had no idea what was going on. I was terrified. Until today, I think most of us are still terrified. I thought somebody was going to kill me. I thought something was going to happen to my sister or my mother.

It went further out to even maybe thinking something would happen in Brazil with my family. And then one day, the lawyer said that everything was just going to go away. Like, nothing happened. I didn't need to testify when I asked him why. He gave no explanation. That was it. So why? Why was I never called to testify then?

We could have saved so many women. We could have saved so many lives from being abused. Why did he get away with it in 2008? Why was he able to go on in the abuse with hundreds of girls after the Florida investigation? The amount of courage it takes for these women to come out here is I don't think really most people can understand or appreciate. I mean, I think I feel like, you know, I can only appreciate how much I don't appreciate. don't understand how much bravery it takes to do this type of thing.

Insanely chilling. And it really is, I mean, the, I don't, all we know at this point is that the White House is desperate to keep this stuff under wraps. And they've been having J.D. Vance call comedians and podcasters on this. issue. They literally contacted Joe Rogan and asked

him not to talk about. I don't know what he's been doing. I haven't been following his show. Aliens and stuff. Has he not been talking about it? I mean, he's sort of moving away from it and avoiding the subject, I think. Well, that's because he's such an iconoclast.

Nobody bosses him around. So we'll have more clips on this tomorrow. And obviously, you know, the more scrutiny on the Republicans, there are three right now. It's Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor, Green, and Lauren Bobert, who have signed on with Massey. And I think they need two more Republican lawmakers to sign on to it. And then the bill gets to the floor. and if the bill gets

to the floor, presumably those people who voted to get it to the floor are going to vote for it which would require the release of all these documents but definitely worth, if you have a Republican congressperson calling them

as a Republican, I mean look, as a constituent. This is not a partisan issue. You tell them how could you vote against this? We're watching you. Mike Johnson's hoping that people are watching him on his, and I have a feeling they're not.

All right. A couple of words from our sponsor, and we'll get to some of what's happening with the National Guard. According to Prisker, Texas National Guard is essentially staging at a federal building. Where is it outside of Illinois or something? And there's a real question as to will Pritzker get the Illinois National Guard. If the National Guard has not been federalized, it has no right, a state National Guard has no right to go into a state uninvited by the governor of that state.

it's, for lack of a better term, an invasion. And Pritzker could activate the Illinois National Guard to stop the Texas National Guard. Theoretically, Trump could nationalize the Illinois National Guard, and it remains to be seen what that National Guard would do. uh but we we will get to that in a moment phelonious monk i think that's called the civil war i mean it sounds almost more like a coup because it's not uh it really is just different militias at that point that are fighting but uh we'll talk about that that more in a bit.

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happening at the cdc and uh bobby kennedy's plans to essentially uh destroy our vaccine um system in this country uh we will talk to him about it and also you know there is a he's written an interesting piece to give you a sense of the liability issues associated with vaccines, how we've handled it, how it could be reformed if there was actually a genuine desire to reform it, as opposed to some wack-a-doodle notions that Bill Gates is put in 3G and all of our earlobes from a vaccine. But we'll get to that in a moment. meanwhile um you have mayor bowser of washington dc saying now that she will collaborate

with um the troops that trump and the feds that trump has stationed in dc uh the and brian and i were talking about this earlier the she has no federal representation there is no congressperson that she can go to there is no senator that she can go to um she is in a very very weak position in terms of uh what can be done and how she can push back and uh while i would like her at least from a rhetorical standpoint to say this is no good um politicians hate to be on the losing side of things particularly when it's guaranteed and uh She is not in a position to have any say as to what goes on in that city. However, J.B. Pritzker is a different story, and he is also running for president in 2028, or very likely.

And Gavin Newsom has provided him a floor as to how much pushback he's going to. to give and he is um at least rhetorically at this point significantly um above that floor here's don't trump uh just uh yesterday tweeting out or trothing out whatever it is chicago's the murder capital of the world which uh fact check yeah not true not the murder capital of this country And there's no special title, like, where you can be the Myrtle Capital of the World and not be the Myrtle Capital of the country. That doesn't work that way. Here is Pritzker. This is Pritzker yesterday saying that he has heard that the Trump has.

has begun staging the Texas National Guard for deployment in Illinois. Now, he doesn't say how he knows this, but I imagine he would not be saying it if you didn't have it on a fairly good authority. Third, as lawful citizens exercise their First Amendment rights, Trump and his team will be looking for any excuse to put active duty military on our streets. supposedly to protect ICE. We have reason to believe that the Trump administration has already begun staging the Texas National Guard for deployment in Illinois. I want to be very clear on this point, and I want to speak directly to the press right now.

We know before anything has happened here that the Trump plan is to use any excuse to deploy armed military personnel to Chicago. If someone flings a sandwich at an ICE agent, Trump will try and go on TV and declare an emergency in Chicago. I'm imploring everyone. If and when that happens, do not take the bait. So it sounds like they realize there's a certain inevitability that there's going to be federal authorities that ICE is going to come in, and you can't really prevent them.

Now, what Brandon Johnson has done is said at the very least, They're not going to cooperate beyond their statutory requirements. Hopefully the police end up doing that. Chicago police don't necessarily have the greatest record of both listening to the mayor or really abiding by the law in some instances. They literally found black sites there just a couple of years ago. But what Pritzker is basically saying is that this is the two-step, right? They send in ice. There are protests where someone throws a sandwich.

Someone calls an ICE agent duty head. And then Trump says we need to bring in the National Guard. And I think what Pritzker is doing, I don't know that he expects that he's going to be able to keep everybody from protesting. But at the very least, he is exposing what the playbook is and this is important because then you start to watch it play out here is

this is number what was that number two this is number three I refuse to play a reality game show with Donald Trump again what I want are the

federal dollars that have been private Illinois and Chicago for violence prevention programs that have proven to work. That is money that Illinois taxpayers send to the federal government, and it's an insult to any and every citizen to suggest that any governor should have to beg the president of any political party from resources owed their people. I'd like to ask a question of my own,

and it's one the press should be asking you as well. when did we become a country where it's okay for the u.s president to insist on national television that a state should call him to beg for anything especially something we don't want have we truly lost all sense of sanity in this nation that we treat this as normal uh yeah the answer would be uh yes that that is the answer um very convenient conveniently. Here is a Pritzker reminding Chicagoans to know their rights and advocating that people film, record what ICE is doing, and give it to the media. To Chicagoans, what you can do is look out for your communities and your neighbors.

Know your rights. Film things that you see happening in your neighborhoods and your streets and share them with the news media. Authoritarians thrive on your silence. Be loud for America. Appealing to some patriotism there, but I like the idea of him telling people to engage in their communities. This is just the beginning of this, folks. And the ice watching stuff, the surveillance on ice by volunteers is a very brave and inspiring development. There was a piece I think it was in the Washington Post, I don't know where it was today, about both the app makers, one

who had a local one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast, but activists in California have been basically surveilling ice. They leave from federal buildings. buildings, they are then either followed at a distance or just kept track of, and people are warned that they're in a specific neighborhood. So this is encouraging. And ICE now has a budget greater than the FBI for this year.

And it's only going to get larger. All right. We're going to take a quick break. And in a moment, we will have Jonathan Cohn. Hi. Sorry. We've just been having a little bit of technical difficulties. We're going to have Jonathan Cohen in just a word in a word in a moment. In the meantime, I just wanted to update you on this. You'll recall last year, Google was found to have violated antitrust laws. The judge, Amit Mehta, no relationship, I would assume, it's M-E-H-T-A, found that Google had violated law saying that Google was a monopolist. It has acted as one to maintain its monopoly. It has violated Section 2 of the Sherman Act.

Mehta also found that the Supreme Court mandated what he called the remedial objective in monopolization cases to terminate the illegal monopoly. However, after I guess it was like six, eight months, almost a year, Meta came back in with the remedy part. of his ruling and found that remedies designed to eliminate the defendant's monopoly, i.e. structural remedies are inappropriate in this case. The DOJ was, um, had asked to remove defaults that place Google as the search choice for most browsers. When you go and try and search something in Chrome, Obviously, it defers to Google. They pay Apple $20 billion a year to be the default search. The judge in this case rejected both a Chrome spinoff, severing the ties between Google Search and Chrome.

regulation of Android. He also did not find that Google had to stop paying Apple $20 billion a year because it would somehow hurt Apple's business. They need money to develop their phones. They have something like a trillion dollars in cash. That may be a little bit of hyperbole, but not much. He went on to limit default payment. agreements to just one year

terms. I'm not sure what the idea is behind that. It just sounds like you got afraid. It is possible that some of the plaintiffs state attorney generals will appeal this case.

We'll have somebody on next week to talk about the monopolies. We're going to take a very quick break and when we come back, we're going to be talking to Jonathan Cohn. We'll be right back after this. We are back, Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Emma Viglin out today. It's a pleasure to welcome back to the program.

Jonathan Cohn, senior national correspondent. Now at the Bullwork, author of Sick and the 10-year War. That one about, gosh, about the Affordable Care Act. that seems like a million years ago uh jonathan no welcome back to the program uh it's nice to be here sam um over the past week we have seen the uh agency director of the CDC um sort of get fired and then resign and then uh four of uh top officials at the CDC also resign uh just i think today A thousand workers at the CDC wrote a letter imploring the administration fire Robert Kennedy, Jr. Let's talk about, like, one of the things that came out over the past week was that over the course of the past nine months,

approximately, that Kennedy has been head of health and human services. They've never, he's never consulted with the CDC about anything. yeah i mean it's insane it is i i i i think like before yeah i i think actually a good place to start just as a general description of what is happening right now at the cdc and frankly not just the cdc other agencies but cdc you know which is such an important it's it's our command and control center for protecting our health um the the the way it's being treated uh the way it is not being treated the extent to which Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., the most important health official in our country, has basically not consulting career staff, the experts there on such a wide variety of issues,

is shocking. And the chaos we're now seeing there between the layoffs and the reorganization and the resignations and the firings. Shocking. I mean, this is just, this is another universe from anything we've seen before. I mean, I've been doing this for a while. You know, I've gray in the beard here. I've covered Republican presidencies. I've covered Democratic presidencies. I covered the first Trump presidency. Nothing like this. This is completely dysfunctional government. And we have, I almost feels like a rogue HHS secretary running around making policy because he thinks it's right, surrounding himself with yes people who will go along with it. And everybody with expertise, everybody who has background

in this left and right and you know when we're talking to civil service most of these people are not political they're just career civil servants trying to serve their country and keep it healthy being shut out of the process i i i was so shocked about this and i will say that um you know uh full disclosure and people know this uh i i hope but i had worked with uh kennedy on a radio program uh 10 years ago right that's right about that um i am there are people who are more disillusioned about him than I, but I know those people. So I'm in that, you know, some of that universe. And it is, it is one thing to say that he has these conspiracy theories in his head

and preconceived notions of who's at the CDC and what their secret nefarious agendas are. But the idea that he didn't even bother to go and spend half an hour over the course of nine months, an hour, even a couple of days, to make that assessment in person just completely ignore this entire agency as if it doesn't exist is mind boggling. And this is an agency that is the product of over 100 years of essentially U.S. health policy. Yeah, again, I've never seen anything like this. And, you know, he has come in and he has this idea that the CDC is part of this deep state health bureaucracy, which of course is, you know, it's similar and of a piece of the broader attitudes of the Trump administration that people who are career officers in

government are, they're at best not doing a lot of good at worst. They're actively undermining whatever the sort of, you know, best policy is. And his attitude has been to just sideline them and ignore them and get rid of them. And, you know, look, I've said from day one, I mean, I think there's a, you know, every agency in government could work better. And if you want to talk about the CDC in particular, we can go back and relitigate what happened in COVID. And there's lots of room for criticism, lots of room for improvement. I don't think anybody would begrudge an HHS secretary from either party coming in and trying to shake things up a little bit. And certainly when you win an election and you get to, that's part of what you get to do is you get to

redefine an agency. But what I think it's just so telling is there's a way you do that responsibly, right? I mean, you, and the first part of that is exactly like you just said, which is you get a feel for what's really going on. Something you can't get from the outside. You get into office, you meet with people, you study the problem, and then you put in place changes. Even if they're radical changes, you do it in a way so that you're not destroying all the institutional knowledge, all the capabilities. And that's what he has done. And we're at this shocking place right now. I know we keep using the word shocking, but I don't know what other word to use for it. You can't trust the material coming out of CD.

because once upon a time you knew that it might be right or might be wrong like any judgment might be, but it was the process of a kind of considered judgment by people who actually knew their field, who were respected for their knowledge, their expertise, and that's just not true anymore. And it's just, we've never been in a world like this. And we're talking about career people, which is contrary to, you know, Kennedy's whole thing was that there's a revolving door and there's this relationship between industry, and the agencies that are unhealthy. And I would agree with that.

I think that's, we see that in a lot of like sort of regulatory agencies. But it's generally the political appointees who are the biggest problem or people who are leaving, not people who have been there for their entire careers and are continuing to do that. And so, all right. So what, like, who's doing what the CDC does? I mean, it seems like they're not allowed to sort of keep track of what's going on. They weren't consulted about measles outbreak that was taking place. They could still be, you know, apparently in Texas, it is sort of burnt out.

But we don't know what's happening in contiguous states. We don't know because none of this stuff is now being, to the extent that it's being recorded by the CDC, they're not allowed to publicly report it, is my understanding. understanding. What else is, what else has he supplanted? Like, and then I want to get to the vaccine, specifically in terms of vaccines. But what, like, what other functions are superseding, I guess, the CDC at this point? So, I mean, it's honestly, it's hard to know, which is crazy to say. I mean, this is not how, again, this is not how government normally works. We usually have some sense of how an agency works. You know, we might not know at the detail level of who's doing what, but there are offices and this is what they're doing.

It's quite hard to know right now. This is not, you know, this administration, again, not just HHS, not just CDC, the entire Trump administration. They don't put out memos saying this is the, you know, they don't put out the reorganizational memos. They don't tell you what they're doing. What I know, first of all, is that we have a bunch of departments that have been eliminated or downsized dramatically. And that is a result. And then that is, as a result of that, even the parts of CDC that are kind of, you would think, on autopilot. So these are the things that maybe Kennedy doesn't care as much about, like, you know, helping cities and states with lead abatement, for example.

These offices are so under staff now. They can't respond quickly. And that's actually, I said, one of the most important roles that CDC plays is as an advisor and kind of a big sibling to state public health aid. agencies. You know, state public health agencies, they're the ones on the ground frequently dealing with, you know, outbreaks when they first happen or environmental toxins. You know, you sort of go down the list. And they need expertise. They need manpower. Sometimes they need someone to just pick up the phone and sort of call on behalf of the federal government to make the wheels of bureaucracy or the private sector respond. And CDC, that's a really important

role of CDC. Well, you can't get any of that done. If there aren't people to pick up the phone or answer the emails. And that's what's happening at CDC right now because they've been so decimated that they are just not responding. We saw this actually in the measles crisis early on. There was a story that I'm, one of those stories that I thought would have gotten more attention

that was in, I think I want to say, KFF health news about how the people in Texas during the outbreak were saying it was really hard to get responses out of CDC when they needed help, when they needed expertise, when they needed advice, when they needed the federal government to kind of be the heavy and make something happen. They just weren't getting calls back. And it seems like it was a combination of A, there weren't enough people because they've been downsized so much. And B, there was this hesitation because it touched on measles, because it touched on vaccines. Because there were these

orders telling CDC people not to communicate certain things in public, there was hesitation. What can we do? What can we not do? What will be allowed? And it's just mind-boggling. I mean, this is, this isn't a political, this shouldn't be a left-right issue. It shouldn't be a Democratic Republican issue. It's public health. It's keeping people from getting sick and dying. I mean, there's nothing political about that. Well, I want to turn to the story you did about the vaccine industry about a week or so ago.

Because it seems to me that Kennedy has taken a very libertarian turn over the past. 10 years and just the concept of public health is he has an issue with the concept of public health it feels like I mean just and I mean broadly speaking will you just sort of I guess walk us through that that notion of what public health is relative to when I go see the doctor right I'm going to because there's a different sort of calculus that's going on with public health than there is with an individual's health. Yeah. So, I mean, when I think of public health,

there's a lot of different ways to describe it. But, you know, when I think of public health, I think of threats that are out there, that are threats to whole communities or threats to the country as a whole, to the public as a whole, where we can address them best through policies.

They may be policies that get at the underlying, causes of disease or conditions or biological threats. We can be working together on keeping, being vigilant, watching, detecting them so we know when something is happening in the aggregate. And then, of course, if something happens, if there's an outbreak, if there's a condition we see happening at a large scale, affecting large numbers of people, then we can start to respond. and that is a that is it you know it is obviously requires medical knowledge that's an

important piece of that you know what your doctor has right that's part of it but there's a whole other uh there's a whole other there's a whole other there's a whole other kind of knowledge a whole other skill set that is specifically involved in understanding how to watch monitor react uh to these sort of health care threats at a larger scale and that That is what CDC does and always has done, and what the people at CDC do, they're trained to do. That's a special kind of training you get. It's a special kind of experience. You accumulate.

And frankly, that's what's going out the door right now. And there's a different, there's also, like, it seems to be a different sort of a calculus, right? I mean, we have this in public policy all the time. What should the speed limit be? we could we could bring traffic deaths down to you know virtually none if our speed limit for our cars was five miles an hour uh but obviously society needs to function uh people need to get places and we find some type of balance between the uh need for us to to to have transportation for food and for products and for individuals and the potential that you know um tens of thousands people are going to die the highways because of the speed that people travel, there's a similar calculation in the context of public health, right? Like, you know, we can say that it's, it is inefficient to have free, you know, colonoscopies

at age for everybody who's age 30. But at one age, it does start to make sense that, yes, it's going to cost money up front to have everybody get colonoscopies. but it's going to save money down the road. I mean, these are all the calculation. There are going to be some people who are still, had they gotten that colonoscopy at age 30, because it was mandated,

would have saved their lives. But as a society, we make the determination that we can't function as a society, saving that. And this calculus is what really is at the heart of the vaccination issues, it seems to me, is that when we, vaccinate a broad population, there are always going to people who are going to have adverse

reactions, just like people who take Tylenol. Like there's no medical procedure or medicine where you won't have people taking an adverse reaction. But the question is, as a public, does it promote health, i.e. more people being healthy than not, even if the actual requirement of a vaccination ends up making people sick who wouldn't otherwise be sick. Yeah, I mean, this is the dynamic that we're talking about with vaccines. Sure.

So tell us the story of how we got to where we are, like where we are in terms of liability with vaccines and why. And we should talk about potential reforms. But Kenny is talking about basically blunt. it all up, it seems like. Right, right, right. So, I mean, yes, vaccines, the vaccines that we have that have been approved, they're enormously beneficial.

They have saved literally millions of lives. I think sometimes it's, you know, it's been so long since we've seen people sitting in an iron lung or large numbers of kids dying from measles or hooping cough. Or, you know, you should have go down the list. We sort of take those things for granted. You know, those diseases used to kill and disable large numbers of Americans. It was hard to get a childhood once upon a time. When those vaccines came along, people were elated because they remembered how awful that was.

Now, like you said, every vaccine is going to have some people who are going to have side effects or bad reactions. Just like every medical, as you said, every medical intervention has some risk and some downsides. Decision you're always making is what. When is it worth it? When is it not? What do we recommend? What do we not recommend? And with these vaccines, the calculus, frankly, is just not tough.

Even a vaccine, like, say, the COVID vaccine, which doesn't, you know, at this point because of the way the virus is mutated and what we now know about it, you know, there's still a good chance that if you are vaccinated against COVID, you can still get COVID. But there's a big difference. You're much less likely to end up a non-examined. hospital. You're much less likely to end up with long COVID. You're much less likely to end up dead. That's a pretty big deal. Now, do some people have reactions to COVID this COVID shot? Yes. Will there be the rare, serious side effect? Yes. And true for other vaccines. This has always

been the case. And we've sort of dealt with this problem before. In the 1970s and 1980s, there was a lot more focus on these side effects. And in particular for the pertusses vaccine, again, that's hooping cough. There was a lot of attention being given to the side effects, including the ones that would go away in a day or two or in some time. And then there were reports of more serious side effects. Never entirely clear how much they were really linked to the shot. Later, research suggested maybe, probably not. But there was, there were these cases and people who had sort of serious conditions after getting the shot would go to court and sue and get these very large liability judgments. And the vaccine makers at that point were like, well, wait a minute,

you know, vaccines aren't necessarily the most profitable line in business for a drug company. And drug companies were like, you know, if we're going to have to face these lawsuits and this is draining our revenue, maybe we just won't make the vaccines. And a bunch of them got out of the business of making the pertussis vaccine. When that happened, we had shortages of pertussis vaccines. There weren't enough shots to go around because there weren't enough companies producing them. So the government stepped in in a bipartisan measure and said, look, we're going to, you know, and they said, look, we want to compensate people. If you're injured, we want to make sure you can get compensation for it.

We want to make it quick. You shouldn't have to go through years and years of litigation. You shouldn't have to roll the dice on whether you found a good lawyer or not. If you're the vaccine maker, you should know that we understand there will be the very occasional rare side effect. you're not going to be sort of facing this huge, massive judgment because those tend to be sympathetic cases. And even if you did nothing wrong, you're going to have to pay this big judgment. So we're going to protect you from that. And doing this will then produce a steady supply of vaccines, which is what all the pediatricians want, what the public health experts want. So

they created basically a no-fault system where you basically, if you've gotten a vaccine and then you have a certain, that's covered by this program, and you have a certain kind of injury you can demonstrate that happened afterwards, you get a payment and you don't have to go to court and whatever. You can still sue for negligence, but it's hard to win that case. Yeah. And this is sort of almost like a separate vaccine judiciary, essentially, right? Where it's more like an administrative judge and you go and you make your case through this process. It is not within the standard civil legal system. It's almost like in a parallel legal system where you go in and you can get awards,

but it doesn't function in the same way and you can't take down a manufacturer. And again, like you say, it's really the only way unless, and frankly, I would certainly be open to this, we started having the government create a capacity to develop vaccines. now that's what bobby kennedy would do if his like belief his supposed sort of like conspiracy theories were accurate that it's too corrupt within the context of capitalism to allow for vaccines that all the motivations are a function of money you would say let's nationalize it let's let's let's expend government money and resources on developing it we already spend the money on developing it and we have ownership

of it and you can contract out to uh you know facilities like in companies that that have the capacity to make this stuff you contract hire them you pay them a lot of money and it's government owned they're not even contemplating anything like that um and so what what are um what has happened to that regime over the years that that that came in in what like the 80s early 80s or yeah it was created in the 80s it was creating the 1980s and um you know over the years um on the one hand, it has kept a steady vaccine supply, so it's, it's met that goal. And it's kept a fairly, you know, it's kept the vaccine makers in the market. So it's met that goal.

It has not always done a great job of compensating people. There's a couple of reasons for that. It hasn't really been updated legally since Congress passed it. So the awards are not as big as they should be. In addition, it's been slow. At some point, the judge. Justice Department decided that it should be contesting these cases more because it saw, you know, it sort of saw its job to protect the federal treasury and didn't want to make sure people

weren't going to the system and draining it, you know, unfairly to kind of make a quick buck. That is not how the program was intended to work exactly. If you talk to the people who were there and there's been a concern, they've pushed back too much so that it is actually harder to get an award. And then, in addition, they just haven't increased the staff enough to deal with the low as we've added more shots and more conditions. Fixing all of those makes a lot of sense. It is a cause that would get bipartisan support.

You know, if Secretary Kennedy came in and said, look, I want to fix the vaccine court. I want the court system. It's not really called a vaccine court, but, you know, we can call it a vaccine court. You know, if we're going to fix this system so it's more responsive and it pays out sums that are more appropriate for today,

you know, I think there would be people, People are a longtime vaccine enthusiast who would say, yes, that's great. In fact, it's closer to what the program was supposed to be when it was founded. But that does not seem to be, I think it's fair to suspect that it's not what he has in mind. I say suspect because as with so many other things he's done, he hasn't been particularly clear. But he has hinted strongly. And people I know who have heard about some of these discussions and all the scuttle butt that's being reported is that he is looking more at changes that would really just blow up this system. And we'd sort of revert back to the pre-1980

system, at least for some of the vaccines, or that he would create a system where it would run out of money very quickly. But one way or another, the guarantee to the companies that they could continue to produce without facing these huge liability threats that had once scared so many off, well, we'd be back to that system and we'd be back to shortages again. that is the concern and i think there's good reason to be concerned what's that what what um we should say that uh just i guess an hour ago uh florida essentially um said that the state's going to eliminate all vaccine mandates yeah i saw that um like 10 minutes ago yeah yes and uh earlier today i think it was uh california oregon in washington state said they're going to form some type of

consortium to, I guess, secure vaccines or create their own guidance because they're not getting any from the federal government in terms of like who is advised to get the COVID shot. And then I guess presumably any sort of future viruses or maybe even the flu for that matter. What do we do if like, I mean, I want a vaccine booster. I'm not 65 yet, a couple of years shy, but I want my vaccine booster. I want my, my COVID booster. I don't want to get COVID. I want my kid to be able to get a vaccine booster as well because, you know, I've seen

the impact of long COVID and I've seen the impact on, you know, kids subsequent from getting COVID the first time they get it. It's not a big deal. and what do we do? Like, do I got to go to Canada? And is there going to be like vaccine tourism trips to like Canada or? I mean, it's, you know, it's hard to know, first of all. A lot is going to depend on things like what insurance companies decide to do,

what they decide to cover for people who have private insurance. Obviously, for people who are on public insurance programs, that's going to depend on what the government says. It is not clear to me to what extent states will be able to manage vaccines within their borders as they want. And there's so many layers of legal complication to that. But let's assume for the sake of argument that we end up with a system where, okay, the California, Oregon, Washington, they make sure that vaccines are available and they keep in place their vaccine regime. teams and maybe New England does California is important right because we're just talking like this is a numbers game like at one point a manufacturer will be like it's just not worth our

while to produce this small amount of vaccines I mean I you know there was a lime apparently there was a Lyme vaccine I don't know developed 20 years ago and they just decided like there's just not enough of market for it and so we're just not going to produce it and you know now Lime has gone completely bonkers up in the Northeast. Yeah, so, I mean, let's assume, let's assume for the sake of our argument. And you're right, having California, having New York, those are big markets. So, you know, that really keeps, you know, let's assume optimistically for the moment that there's enough states that are sort of really still on board with vaccines that the makers still

stay in there. And so New England, the Northeast, West Coast, maybe my home state of Michigan, places like that, we still have vaccines. most people are vaccinated. And let's then assume, though, there are states where you see vaccine levels dipping like we did in that part of Texas, like we might see in Florida. On the one hand, I mean, this is now the fact of life in so many things, right? With our social programs, we have blue America, red America, and they're very different. The problem is germs don't stop at the border, right? So number one, that's a pretty, that's not, that it's only

going to do so much good. But I also was thinking just to give you an example. And when I think of sort of like who is vulnerable. I think there tends to be a sort of libertarian that you were saying before a libertarian attitude. It's my decision whether or not to have a vaccine. And at some level, of course, it is. But it's not like that can affect other people. So I'm just imagining what's in, I grew up in Florida. What's in Florida? Disney World's in Florida. Who likes to go to Florida? Disney World Florida. Kids, you know, how many kids want to go? Does it? Well, if you're an immunocompromised child, you're getting cancer treatment, for example, and we have a world where Florida vaccination levels are, you better.

stay away from Disney World. You better stay away from the state of Florida because just going to that state is going to expose you, increase your exposure to something you cannot fight off. And by the way, again, even if you don't go to Florida, you're still going to be at greater risk because, again, germs don't observe state borders. And there will inevitably be times, you know, in airports and moving around where you'll get exposed to these things. So these things, you know, that's part of, that's kind of the world we might be headed to. it's a little bit terrifying and i'll say coming out of covid it's become very apparent to me that the tolerance this country has for hundreds of thousands of people dying like you know

look we've been talking probably since the iraq war era um we certainly know that there's a tolerance uh for us to be uh involved in the killing of people um uh thousand thousands of miles away. But it was a little bit surprising to see the level of tolerance that Americans have for several hundreds of thousands of people to die, you know, that were easily preventable over the course of a year or two. I mean, it feels like there's a, I don't know what that's called. Is it nealism? I mean, or what? But like, I feel like it's going to take a generation or two of this type of regime for people to respond to it because it's very hard. It's just so it's not transparent.

It's very difficult, I feel like, for people to see the implications of this when they're looking at a ground level and when you have removed the aggregation function of the CDC. that looks at this stuff and says, hey, like, there's 500,000 people who have died over the past 17 months who didn't need to die. When you don't have that, even that function, it feels like people just are going to go about their business. And we're like, oh, poor old Joe, he got whatever, the bug and died. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. I mean, you remember COVID when there was at one point, right, Trump said, people didn't remember. He said, well, if we just stopped county, people wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't be so bad if we just stopped counting the people. I mean, he was sort of right, at least in terms of the way that people perceived it.

You know, to this day, I'm shocked because, yeah, again, I live in Michigan, so I'm right outside Detroit, which was one of the early cities. It wasn't as bad as New York, but it was pretty bad. And I remember every day in headlines, you know, prominent people were you were reading about were dying from COVID. And, of course, for everyone you read in the headlines because they were famous. there were a 10, 50, 100, also dying, they just, you know, they didn't get a story in the newspaper because of that. And I am shocked still that that has sort of been memory hold. And I wonder sometimes, I guess, as you do, is it that people have forgotten or they've just sort of decided it's okay that, you know, we're going to live with that, that, you know, that it's

okay if large numbers of people die. And this does bring us back to Kennedy because, you know, when you listen to him talk, he's very big on this idea of often called natural immunity that like, well, you know, one of the problems with vaccines is that, you know, it doesn't provide you with the same kind of protection. If you actually get the infection, you'll have longer lasting protection. It might even protect you against some other conditions. Now, number one, that is not a scientifically valid.

statement. There's, you know, whether you get more protection or longer protection from a disease versus a shot will depend on all kinds of circumstances, including the disease, the shot, who you are. This idea that it sort of protects you better in the future against other conditions is like this speculative theory. There's nothing, there's really nothing out there yet to show that. But, you know, let's even assume it were true that there were some marginal advantage to get

in the, in terms of your future immunity. that you had better immunity, going stronger immunity going forward from an infection rather than the shot. Well, the flip side of that is you're also a heck of a lot more likely to die from the infection, because you've got to get the infection. You know, what doesn't make you, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger, sure, but it might kill you. Not, well, first of all, not always. What doesn't kill you does not always make you stronger. But even if it did, it also could kill you, right, is what you're saying, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, I think it's, if anything, there's a little bit, I mean, I'm not the first to say this,

and I don't see inside the man's head, so I don't know what he's really thinking, but, you know, people have said this feels awfully Darwinist, you know, the strong will survive and we'll lose a couple along the way. Or eugenicist, like, you know, this is how we get to a stronger humanity because the people with strong immune systems will evolve. And, you know, the reality is, the reality is because we've had all these advances in medical science, including right at the top of the lesson vaccination, lots of people are alive today who would otherwise be dead. And they are people who have, you know, weakened immune systems or who have some kind of disability or have some kind of underlying medical condition. These are the people who are saved by vaccines and all these medical interventions. Me, I think that's great. I'm really glad all those people are here.

you get the feeling listening to Kennedy that I'm not saying he wishes they were gone but the way he talks sometimes it does sound a little bit like well if we lose a few people along the way you know everyone's gonna you know in order so we just let these infections burn through these communities

if we lose one or two kids here and there and a couple people die here and the fact you'll be better off yeah yeah I mean it's reminiscent of both what like Ron Paul said I think it was during the 2008 Republican debate about somebody who doesn't have health insurance that they die on the street they you know they've made their own choices this has a more uh sort of um a biological foundation for it and you know like i have spent probably an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out um uh what has gone into um at least

there has been i it's not a radical transformation in terms of kennedy because he's always flirted with this with the anti-vax stuff and and to be fair you know in 2003 2004 there was enough of a question about the Marisol

that it was removed from the vaccines and then it turned out no this doesn't impact autism rates or anything but I do think that part of it is he comes from essentially you know, aside from all the sort of like maybe psychological things that are involved in his childhood and growing up, I mean, there's a certain amount of trauma associated with that.

There's also like an aristocratic air about the Kennedys, and you see it in the context of how many of them died doing things that they probably shouldn't have been doing. you don't fly an airplane at night if you don't have enough hours of training you don't go glading through a ski resorts if you're not that good of a skier I mean a lot of people in their in their family have died doing things you know there were times where I was waiting on Kennedy to record something remotely and it's you know he was diving to a disentangle a sea turtle from a net You know, like, or he's picking up a roadkill, you know, or bear or whatever it is. I think there's a sense of like, you know, survival of the fittest. And sometimes it doesn't work out. And that's being imposed on the entire society. And it's also ignoring that certain people get born into circumstances, not just that are biological, but are also environmental.

that impact their health, that we, the whole point of the society is to protect them. And it seems like we're going to take a break from that theory for God knows how long. Jonathan Cohn, always a pleasure. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks to having me on an important topic. All right, folks. We're going to take quick break, head into the fun half of the program.

And, um, uh, that's it. What's, what's going on over there? Oh, there we're going to, we're going to take some phone calls. Uh, I'm going to take a quick break. Just a reminder, it just occurred to me that I was supposed to do that entire interview, uh, in the Bobby Kennedy voice. I forgot about that. It was the technical problems and I forgot that I was going to just give a shit talking of me, you jackass. You could have heard Sam speaking and a rating impossible.

to listen to the voice for 20 minutes he missed out on it and I wouldn't have said anything I just had him come on it's been like John it's a real pleasure to have you here talk about this very important topic

and to see how long he like it would just look on his face um uh uh old than Sam. There has not been a transformation of Bobby. RFK Jr.

has always been a piece of shit. Even he was part of the riverkeepers. I'm not talking as a person. I am talking about ideologically. And it's maybe the case that he was paying lip service to a different ideology, but

he was at least paying lip service to a different ideology. The shift specifically regards to like capitalism and environmentalism and the free market libertarian stuff totally you can find very contradictory things from him like 10 years ago

definitely just the notion of the commons in and of itself I mean when we talk about public health policy we're talking about one element of the commons right the idea that we can

that public health is a common good but that concept he jettisoned I don't know if it was 10 years ago or 15 years ago or when um just a reminder

it's your support that makes this show possible you can become a member at join the majority report.com when you do you not only support the free show but you also get the fun half

and uh you allow the show to survive and thrive our members are a very important part listen i cannot tell you how many times i've applied for a chorus grant and we just they keep i don't even know he bounces back i didn't know where was there an email address could someone tell me where the email address although the chorus you can apply on their website is that true yeah we should apply a page through it we should apply We did on the, well, we page through it. I don't know if we actually clicked send, but we did

that on the left reckoning page. Oh, you did? Yeah. You can donate, too. Double dip. There's nothing wrong with that. We could also donate to Corr's? The donate is a little bit more prominent than the than the apply. The application thing it looks like. I mean,

I'd apply. I bet you, I mentioned the chances of what's getting it now would be pretty high. We've actually going to do that. I mean, I'm still a bit salty that I didn't get any CARES Act money from the, what was that called? The bailout money from COVID, the CARES Act. We didn't take advantage of that.

Every right-wing podcast, that's libertarian, took advantage of that. Well, I mean, we could still apply. Maybe we'll have a disclosure to make next week. Well, there we go. The $8,000 incubation tier. Also, justcoffee.coop, fair trade coffee, tea, or chocolate, no, fair trade coffee and hot chocolate. Use the coupon code majority, get 10% off. Matt, left reckoning.

What are you guys incubating over there? Last night, we had Brian Voki on the program. This guy sitting right next to me. Some guy. Talking about his experience in the Austin comedy scene and the mother's We talked about Jimmy Dorr and also talked about a billion, or not a billion, I don't know if he's a billionaire,

a CEO stealing memorabilia from a child and then saying, well, if you were faster, you would... Oh, is that that Polish guy with the hat? I saw that video. Did you see his response to it? No. He's like, look, you guys are all getting bent out of shape if you were faster.

If you were faster, you wouldn't have the hat. He said that to the eight-year-old kid. To the media. And then he threatened to sue, anybody who makes fun of them. So normal stuff going on in their business community. So yeah, check that out, patreon.com. So, stuff for record.

And also some news out of Canada where the labor movement is standing up for Palestine. See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now. But I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on?

It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on for a second. The majority report. Emma, welcome to the program. Hey. Matt. What is up, everyone?

Fun hack. No, me, keen. You did it. Let's go brand. Go Brandon. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappointment. Everyone, I'm just a random guy.

It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false. No, I'm sorry. Women's... Stop talking for a second. Let me finish. Where is this coming from, dude? But dude, you want to smoke his...

Seven, eight? Yes. All right, me. You're safe? Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you.

It is me? I think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm going to go to life.

Libertarians. They're so stupid though. Common sense says of course. Gobbled e-gook. We fucking nailed him. So what's 79 plus 21? Challenge men I'm positively clovering

I believe 96 I want to say 857 210 35 501 1 half 3 8s 911 $911 person

$3,400 $1,900 $6,5,4 $3 trillion sold It's a zero-sum game Actually you're making think less But let me say this Poopin

You can call it satire Sam goes to satire On top of it all My favorite part about you Is just like every day all day, like everything he'd do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we've seen you.

All right, folks, folks, folks. It's just the week being weeded out, obviously. Yeah, sundown guns out. I don't know. But you should know. People just don't like to entertain ideas anyway. I have a question. Who cares?

Our chat is enabled folks I love it I do love that Got to jump You gotta be quick I get a jump I'm losing it bro Two o'clock

We're already late And the guy's being a dick So screw him Sent to a gulaw What is wrong with you Love you Love you Bye bye

Thank you.