The Majority Report with Sam Seder - 3597 - The Victims of Zionism w/ Avi Shlaim

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

It's News Day Tuesday on the Majority Report On Today's Show: Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) stumps Attorney General Pam Bondi with questions over what became of the $50,000 that was delivered to Border Czar Tom Homan as a part of an FBI sting. Historian and author Avi Shlaim joins the program to discuss the "dual exodus theory", his personal history as an Arab Jew living in Israel and how he arrived at the conclusion that Israel is committing a genocide. In the Fun half: Andrew Cuomo cannot answer a simple question about why he shares so many donors with Donald Trump. Cuomo also has a very difficult time navigating questions regarding allegations of sexual harassment. Trump cannot seem to remember anything about his old friend Ghislaine Maxwell. A reporter walks Howard Lutnick right into over sharing his thoughts on Jeffrey Epstein and ultimately implicating Donald Trump. Fox News makes Stephen Miller watch a video of AOC mocking him and it short circuits his brain. All that and more The Congress switchboard number is [phone]. You can use this number to connect with either the U.S. Senate or the House of Representatives. Follow us on TikTok here: https://www.tiktok.com/@majorityreportfm Check us out on Twitch here: https://www.twitch.tv/themajorityreport Find our Rumble stream here: https://rumble.com/user/majorityreport Check out our alt YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/majorityreportlive Gift a Majority Report subscription here: https://fans.fm/majority/gift Subscribe to the AMQuickie newsletter here: https://am-quickie.ghost.io/ Join the Majority Report Discord! https://majoritydiscord.com/ Get all your MR merch at our store: https://shop.majorityreportradio.com/ Get the free Majority Report App!: https://majority.fm/app Go to https://JustCoffee.coop and use coupon code majority to get 10% off your purchase Check out today's sponsors: SHOPIFY: Sign up for a $1/month trial period at shopify.com/majority NUTRAFOL: Get $10 off your first month’s subscription + free shipping at Nutrafol.com/men when you use promo code TMR10 SUNSET LAKE:  Head to SunsetLakeCBD.com and use the code JustTreats25 to save 30% on all their gummies for sleep, focus, and relaxation Follow the Majority Report crew on Twitter: @SamSeder @EmmaVigeland @MattLech Check out Matt’s show, Left Reckoning, on YouTube, and subscribe on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/leftreckoning Check out Matt Binder’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/mattbinder Subscribe to Brandon’s show The Discourse on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/ExpandTheDiscourse Check out Ava Raiza’s music here! https://avaraiza.bandcamp.com/

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gummies for sleep, focus, and relaxation. Sale ends October 8th. So tomorrow at 11.59 p.m. Eastern, see their site for terms and conditions. Now time for the show. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, October 7th, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five-time award-winning majority report.

We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, marking two years since. The Hamas attack on Israel and what ultimately would become the ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. Avi Shlame, Meritist Professor of International Relations, University of Oxford. His most recent book is Genocide in Gaza, Israel's Long War on Palestine. He'll be here to talk about the history. history of Zionism, his own personal history with it, and where we are today. Also on the program, it is day seven of government shutdown, and Republicans now getting

defensive over health care. Imagine that. Stimied by courts, Trump now teasing the use of the Insurrection Act. contrary to the law Trump regime now claiming they will provide no back pay for furloughed federal workers flight delays

increase as air traffic staffing hit by the Republican shutdown Pam Bondi on the hot seat testifies in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee Supreme Court considers outlying the ban on gay conversion therapy. Mom! Mom!

Why did you do that to me? Trump calls off diplomatic outreach to Venezuela as the war drums start to beat from the White House. Barry Weiss and her conservative grievance takes over at CBS News. And Trump Farmer bailout supposedly coming this week as bankruptcies amongst farmers is up 50% year over year. All this and more on today's majority report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. It is...

Newsday Tuesday-ish. But, of course, it's October 7th, so we had to have a special guest on. and we had been wanting to have Avi Shlame on the show for quite a while. So this is a really, really exciting interview. We just did it actually, recorded it about an hour and a half ago. That's correct. We did. Yes. It seemed like you were telling me that.

Well, I mean, I'm... Do you remember? Part of what we do on the show is... We are 15 minutes away from me forgetting that any of this ever happened. Well, we converse. We have a conversation. That's the nature of our communication to the audience, and that's how I was choosing to do that.

But thanks for calling it out. All right, there you go. Fair enough. It's only Tuesday. I'm willing to accept that. Yeah. Our format these days for Newsday Tuesday has been dubious at best, but we're still going to hang on to that idea that there's not a lot of news later. Yeah, I know.

Things are too slow on the news front. One of the things, speaking of which, one of the things that seem to be in the news for, I don't know, about eight hours, was the fact that the man in charge of the Gestapo in this country, the borders are. Tom Homan. Now, you haven't heard much of Tom Homan. Remember how it used to be like Tom Homan was everywhere? I mean, even when he's on TV, you don't really hear much of him anyway. Yeah, you do. You're like respiration. But he was on every other day talking about how, uh, basically he had, um, like creepy ass fantasies about AOC and, um, and other, uh, and other, uh, democratic lawmakers and, and he has not been out front for that lately,

you know, to the extent that we've seen anybody, um, uh, from there, it's been Christy Nome, DHS going on her media tour, uh, with, uh, her, um, uh, uh, uh, her sidekick Betty Johnson. And there's a reason why you haven't heard much about Tom Holman. He is laying a little bit low because it was reported about two weeks ago that in the run-up to the 2024 election, Tom Homan, who we were covering at that time because he was going around speaking as if he was in the shadow cabinet. of Donald Trump was quite clear that he was going to be named head of ice

and he was going around making all sorts of proclamations about what they were going to do if they got elected which you know some people should have probably listened to a little closer and during that time he got caught up in a sting operation

and by caught up I mean he was not running the sting operation yeah he was a he was actually an ancillary subject they were going after somebody else we don't know who and somebody said you should try tom homin because he's now collecting money to influence uh the trump administration if he gets into office now according to tom homan that is not a criminal offense and I'm not a judge, a jury. I can't make that assessment.

But it's quite clear he did it. There's video of him taking $50,000 in cash in. In everybody seems to know this fast food place, like a, you know. Carva. Yes, that was the FBI's choice. I don't know why, but. But I just want everybody to take a breath. chicken or rice

if you know well there's two there's multiple questions about this maybe we should ask the questions after white head at white house asks his but just let's just start with the premise of I'm doing something that's completely legal

and above board but I'd like it in cash and I'd like it in a fast food restaurant bad which is the way that now I will be That's how you hand out our pay sobs. Listen, it's the way everybody gets paid here. You know, in between like a hot dog roll, I put in their cash.

You put on a Burger King crown. And I put it in. And in fact, the people who are members to this show all line up and slide the money underneath our door at the beginning of the month every week. Here is White House asking Pam Bondi a very big. very, very relevant question that hadn't even occurred to me. Again, the FBI posing as a contractor for, um, that does business with ice, gave Tom Holman $50,000 in cash. Senator White House has some questions about that money. What became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI paid to Mr.

Homan in a paper bag, evidently. Oh, pause it. I should tell you that Pam Bondi has not passed out. She's still there. She just, it took her a while to sort of like, because honestly, like, we talk. about this story and it never occurred to me to wait a second okay maybe maybe no crime was committed where's our effing money good oh my god senator as deputy attorney general todd blanche recently stated

the investigation of mr homan was subjected to a full review by the fbi agents and d oj prosecutors they found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing. Pause for one second. Todd Blanche, why does that name sound familiar to me? Oh, I know why, because he was Donald Trump's defense attorney. I'm sorry, okay. Go back a little bit. I just wanted to place him.

Okay. They found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing. And that was not my question. My question was, what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI delivered, evidently in a paper bag, to Mr. Holman. Senator, I'd look at your facts. Are you saying that they did not deliver $50,000 in cash to Mr.

Homer? Senator, as recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Holman was subjected to a full review by the FBI agents, by Department of Justice prosecutors. They found no evidence of wrongdoing. That's a different question. What became of the $50,000? Did the FBI get it back? Mr. White House, excuse me, Senator White House, you're welcome to talk to the FBI. The report to you, can't you answer this question? Senator White House, you're welcome to discuss this with Director

Patel. Did Homan keep the $50,000? As Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche recently, stated. The investigation of Mr. Hallibet, I can see I'm not going to get a straight answer from you to a very simple question. By the FBI agents and the DOJ. They found no credible evidence of wrongdoing. You know, you're very concerned about money and people taking money and you rail against dark money. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Did you work with dark money groups all the time, Senator White House? Did you know whether or not in that investigation they looked at whether the $24, $50,000 payment to Mr. Holman was declared by him on his tax returns.

Senator, I would be more concerned if I were you when you talk about corruption and money that when you pushed for legislation that would subsidize your wife's company. Questions here are actually pretty specific. So having you respond with completely irrelevant far-right Internet talking points really is not very helpful here. I'd like, Mr. Chairman, you generally like to have us be able to get answers to know, and we'll follow up with the QFR. And to the extent Patel wants to answer, that would be great as well. What happened to the $50,000? Did Home and Keep it?

did the FBI get it back if he kept it, did he put it on his tax returns? Pretty simple questions. You know, wow. I'm going to guess that... He donated to charity? Well, he may have donated to charity. What if it disappeared?

But I'm going to guess that on his tax returns, $50,000 consulting payment in the form of cash not listed as one of his income. Has everybody thought about checking his cheeks for the $50,000? I'm keeping an astro

in my mouth for the past... It's a chipmunk account. How does the IRS want you to report money you got in a Kava bag? Yeah. I think he just put it 50 grand and from who it's

from. He should... FBI. Yeah. I received $50,000. for my efforts in playing a part in an investigation by the FBI. The FBI paid me $50,000. His disclosure documents pro-Publica investigated this. Holman's private sector work before we returned to government transformed his finances. In 2017, he declared assets totaling a maximum of just $250,000 on his ethics disclosures

following a career in federal service, a figure that excludes certain government. retirement accounts. By 2025, his net worth had grown to between three million dollars to nine million dollars, the disclosure documents show. It's interesting. But not on cash. I mean, was that a denial? But not own class. Oh, you're saying it's. But not on cash. Oh, I think I made out the word cash. But not on cash. I'm sure the podcast audience is loving this. So Holman also was a consultant for a division of Geo Group called GeoCare, where he disclosed receiving more than $5,000 over two years before taking a government role. I would imagine it's a lot more than $5,000 if your net worth is now in the millions.

And he also was involved in hiring this guy, David Venturella, who had worked at Geo Group to ice and now Geo Group is getting a bunch of I'm just trying to be substantive total okay I haven't given a dollar from the campaign

this is a Donald Clinton what Tom Holman's doing it because I think he's a freedom of my life this is a perfect representation of the dichotomy of our government right now you're throwing all the expirations around

for me this is total meat one time holman's doing it where is our money where is our 50,000 I mean you care a lot about $50,000 Sam what about all the stuff you did wrong as someone who recently started paying taxes

I want to know White House also could have said whatever my wife got it wasn't in a paper bag and it wasn't U.S. tax dollars. I mean, this is, like, it is the most obvious question in the world. Where is our U.S. $50,000 that we paid to Tom Homan to pretend that he was a subject of an FBI investigation? Do you think he got paid a lot more than just $5,000 over two years from Geo Group?

I'm going to guess a lot more. It would have to be per minute. Yeah, it would have to me to get him to the. those millions. And you will not be shocked to know that Geo Group is getting a ton of contracts to do basically concentration camps and terming camps, abuse torture camps for a bunch of immigrants in this country. Allegated Alcatraz. When I was in high school, we had a police officer come into our class and tell us one of the things he told us was that for every ticket they issue, they estimate like 25 traffic violations per ticket.

How many other bags of cash do you think Tom Homan? Yep. This is the first time I've never taken bag of cash in my entire life. And you're so coincidence that it happened to be from the FBI. I mean, the FBI is to salivate when they see guys connected to this incarceration complex because they're all going to take this money. Well, it's what we said about the Tim Poole thing. and the Dave Rubin

Russian money thing where it's like you must be used to taking these kinds of payments if you agree to it so quickly on like to basically to make millions and millions of dollars without really knowing who the backer is. It must be, yeah. In Holman's defense

I'm sure it is the first time he has received 50,000 in cash in a Kava bag. Yes. Generally I like a type of like a shopping bag

or a bottle of bars of gold wendies uh folks in a moment we'll be playing that

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merchandise at shop dot majority report radio.com we started the podcast basically everything i had to do on my own well dorsey also actually helped quite a bit uh but uh pasting together the equipment that i had stolen from air america and uh soldering wires and whatnot it was super overwhelming i was always afraid to start a merch store for years people are like sell merch i'm like no it's going to be too much of a pain i don't want to have to deal with any of this accounting for it lists and upkeep and whatnot uh shopify was the answer um shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world households names like magic spoon to brands that are just getting started shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates to help you build an

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slash majority go to shopify.com slash majority Shopify.com slash majority for a little bit of this um all of that info will be in the podcast and youtube description uh quick break and when we come back abys shlame merritus professor of international relations at the university of oxford's most recent book genocide in gaza israel's long war on palestine Thank you. You know, I'm going to be able to be. We are back, Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland. On the majority report, it is a pleasure to welcome to the program of Islame.

He is the Emeritus Professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford. His most recent book of nine, if I'm counting correctly, is genocide in Gaza, Israel's long war on Palestine. Professor, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you. Before we get to your most recent work, broadly speaking, can you give us a sense of what we mean when we say Israel's new historians and all that's involved with those, I guess, the revision of Israeli history, that's, And I know from myself, when I was raised, the history I was taught was different than, I think, what we've come to understand. So the new history is a very small group of Israeli historians who published books in 1988 on the fourth anniversary of the birth of the state of Israel.

And the original group included Benny Morris and Ilan Pape and myself. During the second Intifada, which started in 2000, Benny Morris has veered from the extreme left to the extreme right, and he's changed his views. Ilan Pape and I remain on the left and we remain critical of Israel's policy towards the Arabs. The debate between, we were collectively, we were called the new historians or the revisionist Israeli historians because we challenged many of the assumptions and premises. of the old history of Israel. We challenge the Zionist narrative of the 1948 war

and the establishment of the state of Israel. Between us, we mounted a frontal assault on all the myths that have come to surround the birth of Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war. Benny Morris, his book was called The Birth of a Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947 to 1949. And the Zionist narrative said that the UN voted for the partition of Palestine into two states in 1947, a Jewish state and Arab state. the Arabs rejected the partition resolution.

The Jews accepted it. The Arabs went to war. And in the course of this war, the Palestinians left Palestine. In fact, there were three quarters of a million Palestinians who became refugees. And the old history says they left of their own free will or on orders from above. And Benny Morris demonstrated in detail using Israeli documents that Israel was largely responsible for the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem. And Ilan Pappi has written a book about it called The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Ilan Pappi also wrote another book called

Britain and the Arab-Israeli conflict 1941, the Zionist narrative claimed that towards the end of the British mandate in Palestine, Britain rejected partition, rejected a Jewish state, and encouraged and armed its Arab allies to invade Palestine on expiry of the mandate to strangle the Jewish state at birth. and Ilan Pappe wrote a PhD thesis in 1984 in St. Anthony's College, Oxford, and I was the external examiner of his PhD thesis, and in that thesis, all the ideas of the new history are present in one form or another. But the main thesis is that there is a case against Britain as the mandate approach, its inglorious end. It's not that it tried to prevent the birth of a Jewish state, but rather that it worked behind the scenes to prevent the birth of a Palestinian state. My own book was called Collusion Across the Jordan, King Abdullah, the Zionist movement, and the partition

of Palestine. And there I challenge two notions, two Zionist notions. One that was that in 1948 Israel faced a monolithic Arab coalition united behind the aim of genocide, of throwing the Jews into the sea. I showed that the Arab coalition was very divided, and one member of this coalition, King Abdullah of Transjordan, was in cahoots with the Zionists to divide Palestine between themselves at the expense of the Palestinians. And this is what happened. And finally, I challenged the myth that at the end, after the guns fell silent, Israel's leaders strove with all their heart and all their mind to achieve peace with the Arabs. But there was no one to talk to on the Arab side. And I demonstrate, using Israeli documents, that there were pragmatic Arab leaders ready to negotiate and did negotiate, but it was Israel which was intransigent,

and it was Israel which was largely responsible for the perpetuation of the conflict until today. I want to get to the implications of that, but first let me also ask you in terms of your own personal history. I literally just had this argument at Yom Kippur Breakfast. I was told that Israel consisted in 1948 of Arab Jews who were kicked out of the various Arab countries in that region, and that's who established Israel. And I tried to explain, I think the sequencing is wrong.

But your particular story, having been born and raised for the first. I believe it was five years of your life in Baghdad, and your subsequent understanding of why you and the vast majority of Iraqi Jews move to Israel. Tell us that story. It's a really interesting story. And my research, main research interest interest is the Arab-Israeli conflict. And I've always known, and I've written a number of books in which the Palestinians appear as the main victim of Zionism. But a few years ago, I started working on

an autobiography, which was published two years ago under the heading, Three Words, Memoirs of an Arab Jew, And it goes up to when I was 18, and then there was a long epilogue about the evolution of my views about Israel, Palestine, until today. And the three worlds of the title are Baghdad, where I lived up to the age of five, Israel from 5 to 15, and London, where I went to school from 15 to 18. And in the course of writing this book, I realized that there was another victim of the Zionist movement, and that's the Jews of the Arab lands, like my family and myself. And the Zionists have the theory of the double exodus about 1948. They claim that the Palestinians' refugees. refugees left of their own accord, and Israel was not responsible, and there was three-quarters

of a million of them. But there was rampant endemic anti-Semitism in the Arab world, and that forced 850,000 Jews to go to Israel, that they were driven out. So there was a double exodus, if you wish, an exchange of population, and Israel is not guilty of anything. whereas my research demonstrated that it wasn't anti-Semitism. First of all, that there was a long history of Muslim-Jewish coexistence. And secondly, that most of the Jews of Iraq and there were 135,000 had deep roots in the country and wanted to stay. But the establishment of the state of Israel made it very difficult for them to stay because it generated a wave of hostility and also persecution by the government of the Jews.

So it's the Zionist movement which was responsible for driving the Jews from the Arab lands to Israel. And in the specific case of Iraq, in 1950-51, five bombs exploded in Jewish premises, and that precipitated the exodus. A hundred and twenty-five thousand Jews left Iraq and ended up in Israel. And I found evidence that the Mossad was behind three out of the five bombs. They use local Jewish Zionist activists to plant the bonds in order to frighten Jews and precipitate the exodus to Israel. So this is a very controversial argument. There have been rumors to that effect since 1948. but now I found actual evidence, written evidence, as well as oral evidence,

that Israel was involved in uprooting the Jews of Iraq. Now, individual experiences varied, but the community as a whole, for the community as a whole, the experience was like a tree being uprooted from the roots. and and this this this phenomenon has been described as cruel Zionism this is just one example of a pattern of false flag operations by Israel that's cruel Zionism and and would these tactics that you describe that you have uncovered through your work does that fit into many of the British colonial tactics that you write about in the way that the Zionist project was implemented, because obviously the Balfour declaration looms large over all of this and what the British intentions were with the

state of Palestine as well. Can you speak a little bit about that history and colonial tactics being continued through the Zionist project? That's a very important issue as the background to the conflict. To put it succinctly, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was made in Britain. And the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was the original scene,

because in 1917, the Jews were 10% of the population, the Palestinians were 90% of the population, the Jews only owned 2% of the land, 2%. And yet Britain allocated national rights to the Jews by supporting a national home for the Jews in Palestine and denied national rights to the Arab majority. So it was a classic colonial document that disregarded the rights and aspirations of the majority of the people.

It was Britain, it was the Balfour Declaration, which enabled the Chinese-Zionist movement to embark on the systematic takeover of the whole of Palestine. And it is this process that continues to this day. now Israel is in control of a hundred percent of Palestine. In 1936, an Arab revolt broke out in Palestine, and it was the British army which suppressed the revolt with the utmost brutality. And the cornerstone of the British Mandate in Palestine was that there must be no democracy, there must be no elections until the Jews became a majority. And the Jews only became a majority in 1948 as the result of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

So Britain has a lot to answer for. And Britain was a colonial power. And the Zionist movement was a settler colonial movement. the state of Israel is a settler colonial state. And Naum Chonsky wrote that settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism. And for the last century, the Palestinians have been at the receiving end of Zionist settler colonialism on the one hand. and Western imperialism on the other hand, first under Britain and subsequently under America. So I would conclude by saying that the war in Gaza, the genocide in Gaza, is the direct result of the Balfour Declaration

and that Zionism would never be able to achieve what it's achieved. And Israel would never be able to get away literally with murder and with genocide had it not been for the support of the imperial powers, of the Western powers. And today, when I look at on the second anniversary of the war in Gaza, I see that Britain and America are not just complicit in Israel's war crimes. there are active partners in committing these crimes against the Palestinian people. Has the, how linear has been the Zionist disposition towards whatever the end game they had anticipated being or continued to anticipate being? I guess a unified Israeli control over the land from the river to the sea, for lack of a better explanation. How linear has that trajectory been since the founding of Israel? Has there ever been a time where that has, that agenda has moved in a different direction?

Or has it been linear, more or less, in that respect? The trajectory has been linear, not just since Israel was created, but before Israel was created, when the Zionist movement emerged. Because the Zionist aim, the Zionist ambition from the beginning, was to create a Jewish state in as large an area of Palestine as possible, with as few Arabs within its borders as possible. So from the beginning, Israel has been an expansionist country, and from the beginning, land grabbing and expanding territory has been a murder of Zionism.

1967 was a turning point because for the first time Israel had something very substantial to offer the Arabs in return for peace. It could trade land for peace, but no government either liquid or labor agreed to a Palestinian state on terms that would be acceptable to the most moderate Palestinian leader. And after the June, June, 1967, Israel immediately started building settlements in Gaza

and on the West Bank. There was always talk about a two-state solution, and it's now become, fashionable to say that the two-state solution is dead. And Netanyahu and his party and his coalition repeat every day adamantly that they would never accept an independent Palestinian state. So I would say that the trajectory since 1967 also has been towards expansion towards greater Israel. But that's not to deny that there are differences of opinion between Labor and Likud. Labor was prepared for the partition of Palestine and an independent Palestinian state,

though its terms weren't good enough for the Palestinians, whereas the Likud denies any Palestinian rights anywhere in historic Palestine. And the policy guidelines of the present government are very explicit. They say, quote, the Jewish people have an exclusive right to self-determination in the land of Israel. The land of Israel means not just Israel proper, Israel within its pre-67 borders, it includes the West Bank, which Nationalist Israel is called Judea and Samaria. And the agenda of the present government is, and it's happening in reality, the agenda of the government is the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, the depopulating and re-conquest and and we are an Israeli control over the Gaza Street. And all this is, and for some of the extremists in the government,

the explicit agenda is the formal annexation of the West Bank. So the agenda today, whatever it might have been in the past, the agenda is that of ethnic cleansing and greater Israel. has there ever been to build off of some of what sam asked about if this has always been linear has there ever been a moment of true democracy for the Palestinians since the zionist project came about and was undertaken i've seen you refer to the palestinian authority as a an israeli subcontractor in the west bank for example i guess my question is has ever been a true moment of independent self-governance, where the Palestinians had true

representation in some of these negotiations? After Israel was established, there were 150,000 Arabs who remained within the borders of the state of Israel, and they were given the right to vote. And Israel was always very, very proud of being a democracy, an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. And it is true that the Arabs did have the vote, and there was procedural democracy. There are parties, there were elections, there was Arab representation in the Knesset. But at the same time, from 1949 until 1966, the Arabs in Israel were under military rule with all sorts of restrictions. And there was, although they had the vote, there was discrimination against them at every level.

There were second-class citizens and a raft of legislation which discriminated against them. So I am prepared to concede that until 1967, Israel had a procedural democracy. But since 1967, with Israeli control of the occupied territories, Israel in no sense can be described as a democracy. And a couple of years ago, there was a report by the Israeli human rights. rights organization, Bethlehem, which called Israel an apartheid state and a Jewish supremacist state, because all its previous reports had focused on violations of human rights inside Israel proper and discrimination against Israeli Arabs. But the last report looked at the situation between the river and the sea, and it concluded that this is apartheid or

ethnocracy. It's a space in which one ethnic group, the Jews, dominated the other ethnic group, the Arabs. Now, you mentioned the Palestinian Authority. Well, it's in no sense an independent body which represents the wishes of the Palestinian people. The last election was in 2006 and Hamas won that election. So the Palestinian Authority lacks legitimacy. It's incompetent. It's corrupt and it does nothing to protect the people under its rule. 40% of its budget goes towards security, but that's not Palestinian security. It's Israeli security. That's why I said that the Palestinian Authority is a subcontractor for Israeli security on the West Bank. Professor, I know you've got to go in a moment. So the final question. Your most recent book is, you're, you've got to go in a moment. So the final question, your most recent book is, genocide in Gaza, you, I'm curious as to at what point over the course of the conflict now,

which has lasted for two years, at what point do you feel that this has crossed the threshold of genocide. And where were we before that, I guess, before that that threshold was crossed? It took me some time to conclude that what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide. Because genocide is a very, very serious charge, and it seemed to me almost perverse to accuse the Jewish people of committing genocide of Arabs because the Jews had been the historic victims of Nazi genocide. And in my memoirs, I wrote, and it was a very critical book about Zionism. I wrote, for all it since, Israel has not been guilty of genocide. It was a gradual process that led me to the conclusion that Israel is guilty of genocide. And the clincher for me was the stopping of humanitarian aid from reaching the civilian population

in Gaza. It's the use of starvation as a weapon of war, which is a clear indication of genocide. But another reason that led to this conclusion is the 1948 Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. And it gives a clear definition. Genocide is the intent to destroy in whole or in part an ethnic or religious or racial group. And there are two aspects of this, the intent to commit genocide and then the practical actions on the ground. ground and Israel is guilty of both. In this last book of mine, genocide in Gaza, the six pages of quotes from Israeli leaders from the president and the prime minister down, which are clearly genocidal statements. So there is no doubt about the rhetoric. But secondly, Israel's actions on the ground

also amount to genocide. The complete destruction of Gaza destroying 80% of the housing and civilian infrastructure. The forcible displacement of civilians which is a war crime And for the last two years, Israel has been committing this war crime on a daily basis.

Some people have been told to move 10 times or more. And when these people obey the Israeli orders to evacuate, they are often bombed from the air and in the areas that the IDF defines a safe as those. So there is no safe areas left in Gaza, and Israel has killed, by the last count, over 66,000 people. It's killed 20,000 children. It's made many children orphans. So this is genocide, which is live stream on our screens, every day. That's what is unusual about the Israeli

genocide in Gaza. First, that it's openly declared that the aim is to make the Gaza completely uninhabitable to wipe Gaza off the back. And secondly, that it is live streamed. I'm a meritist professor of international relations the University of Oxford, your most recent book, Genocide in Gaza, Israel's Long War, on Palestine. We will link to that at majority.fm and in our podcast and YouTube descriptions.

Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it and all of the work that you have done over these many decades now. Really thank you. Thank you as well. Thanks so much. All right, folks, we're going to head into the fun half now. We have two Iams that I think are worth mentioning during that. Labor Churchill says Britain's involvement in the Zionist project started within months of deciding to convert the Royal Navy from coal to oil.

Interesting. And Midwest Ranch says, if you enjoyed this interview with Avi Shlame, could not recommend a hundred years war on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi more. We've had Kalidi on, I think, twice. I'm reading that right now. It's in my backpack. Joe Biden was reading

it last year. Oh, my God. That photo op, I forgot. Oh, God. But go back, what are the dates that we had Caledian? We interviewed him, I think, twice in the

past couple of years. Um, March 24th, uh, 2020. March 24th, 2024. Yes. And maybe one subsequent, maybe this year early. Rashid, uh, Kalidi, uh, I don't know if we, we mentioned this on the show, has left Columbia, um, in basically kind of in protests for, of their repression of free expression when it comes to the issue of Palestine. So, um, yeah. As he called it vichy on the Hudson. Vichy Vichy's all right folks just a reminder to your support

that makes this show possible you can become a member at join the majority report.com and when you do not only do you get to hear the rare opportunity for me to correct someone else's pronunciation

you also get to help this show survive and thrive and you get the free show free of commercials and you can IAM us during the fun half also just coffee dot co-op fair trade coffee hot chocolate use the coupon code majority get 10% off

great mix of coffees there great co-op in madison wisconsin just coffee dot co-op use the coupon code majority will get 10% off matt yeah as to my pronunciation of vichia i'll have to say is this global global infidata infatata infatata infatata infatida in defada intifada intifada inter Antifada. And tonight, Justin Chen, a union president representing federal workers and also an environmental engineer at the EPA on to talk about the shutdown. And also a story about a green beret who is sort of built a mythology around him, being a sort of Manosphere influencer.

That is all tonight. That's by Michael Sierra Aravalo. Tonight, 7 o'clock Eastern, where 50,000 other people have subscribed to Left Reckoning because they like what we offer on a weekly basis. So if you want to help us get to 100,000, which I'll start plugging in a little bit, you can subscribe at Left Reckoning on YouTube. Carly Chirk says, my Max Left Hat has gotten so many comments. I didn't realize how many majority reporters are in New Orleans with me.

I even met a guy named Bob who said he wrote the Am Quick. Oh, wow, you saw Bob. Oh, shoot, I can't remember. Bob Hitt, who he works for, I don't know if I want to, he works for the Labor Department. He's like nab and bad guys now. But yes, Bob used to work on the AM Quiki. Very nice guy. You can get a Max left hat and then meet all sorts of new people in your town.

Go to shop. Dot Majority ReportRadio.com. Also, don't forget, A.M. Quicky, Bob used to write for it. Now it's Whitney and Corey, and they're doing a great job. Corey's been here since the beginning, amquicky.com. Free email three times a week. Do you want to upgrade? Help support the email?

You can do that, but three emails per week. week news of the day am quickie dot com now time for the fun half three months from now six months from now nine months from now and i don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now and i don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now but i think around 18 months out we're going to look back and go like wow what what is that going on It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second.

The majority report. Emma, welcome to the program. Hey. Fun hack. Matt. Who? Fun hack. What is up, everyone?

Fun hack. No, me keen. You did it. Fun hack. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Brandon. Bradley, you want to say hello?

Sorry to disappoint. Everyone, I'm just a random. guys. It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false. No, I'm sorry. Women's... Stop talking for a second. Let me finish. Where is this coming from, dude? But dude, uh, you want to smoke his, um, seven, eight? Yes. Um, um, um, is me? Is this name? Yes. Um, um, um, it's this me. Um, um, it's a sneak. It is you. It is you. Um, it's me. Hello, it is you. I think it is you.

Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets, and we can discuss capitalism. I'm going to just know what. Who libertarians? They're so stupid, though.

Common sense says, of course. Gobbled e gook. We fucking nailed him. So what's 79 plus 21? Challenge men. I'm positively clovery. I believe 96, I want to say. 857.

210. 35. 5.1. 5. $3,400, $1,900, $6, $4, $3 trillion sold. It's a zero-sum game. Actually, you're making anything less. But let me say this. Hoop.

You can call it satire, Sam goes to satire. On top of it all, my favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks. It's just the week being weeded out, obviously. Yeah, sundown guns out. I don't know.

But you should know. People just don't like to entertain ideas anymore. I have a question. Who cares? Our chat is enabled folks. Wow. I love it. I do love that. Look, got to jump.

I got to be quick. I get a jump. I'm losing it. Two o'clock, we're already late, and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulaw? Outrage. Like, what is wrong with you?

Love you, bye. Love you. Bye-bye.