The Majority Report with Sam Seder - 3606 - Trump Punts Hormuz; Republican National Purity Dream w/ David Bier

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

  It's Fun Day Monday on The Majority Report   On today's program:   This Saturday Donald Trump issued a warning to Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz within 48 hours, or he'll order the obliteration of their power grid. On Monday after Iran didn't bite, Trump granted five more days the deadline.   David Bier, director of immigration studies at the Cato Institute, joins the program to discuss Trump's mass deportations and the white supremacists that are behind the policy.   In the Fun Half:   Scott Bessent claims that by lifting sanctions on Iran's oil the U.S. is using jiu-jitsu.   Ambassador to the UN, Mike Walz participates in a town hall on the war in Iran and is asked by a student how this operation is helping him and Walz has nothing to offer but empty cliches.   Chuck Schumer gets into a heated exchange with Joe Scarborough over the $200 Billion in funds requested for the war effort.   A YouGov poll shows republican voters overwhelming supporting the war in Iran.   Vinny from PBD podcast makes a case against the U.S. collectively punishing Iranians by bombing their power plants and the rest of the PBD crew disagrees.   Bill Maher was set to receive the Mark Twain from the Kennedy Center, but Trump had a change of heart.   all that and more   New Yorkers if you live in Senate District 27 which includes the neighborhoods of Lower Manhattan, including the East Village, Tribeca, Little Italy, Chinatown, Soho, and the Financial District and Greenwich Village support Yuh-Line Niou for State Senate    Check out longtime MR listener Jim Di Bartolo's new graphic novel F*ck Billionaires    To connect and organize with your local ICE rapid response team visit ICERRT.com The Congress switchboard number is [phone]. You can use this number to connect with either the U.S. Senate or the House of Representatives. Follow us on TikTok here: https://www.tiktok.com/@majorityreportfm Check us out on Twitch here: https://www.twitch.tv/themajorityreport Find our Rumble stream here: https://rumble.com/user/majorityreport Check out our alt YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/majorityreportlive Gift a Majority Report subscription here: https://fans.fm/majority/gift Subscribe to the AMQuickie newsletter here: https://am-quickie.ghost.io/ Join the Majority Report Discord! https://majoritydiscord.com/ Get all your MR merch at our store: https://shop.majorityreportradio.com/ Get the free Majority Report App!: https://majority.fm/app Go to https://JustCoffee.coop and use coupon code majority to get 10% off your purchase Check out today's sponsors: DELTEME: Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/MAJORITY and use promo code MAJORITY at checkout. COZYEARTH: Go to cozyearth.com/MAJORITYREPORT for up to 20% off. SUNSET LAKE: Use coupon code "Left Is Best" (all one word) for 20% off of your entire order at SunsetLakeCBD.com  Follow the Majority Report crew on Twitter: @SamSeder @EmmaVigeland @MattLech On Instagram: @MrBryanVokey Check out Matt's show, Left Reckoning, on YouTube, and subscribe on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/leftreckoning Check out Matt Binder's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/mattbinder Subscribe to Brandon's show The Discourse on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/ExpandTheDiscourse Check out Ava Raiza's music here! https://avaraiza.bandcamp.com

You are listening to a free version of the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. To support this show and get another 15 minutes of daily program, go to Majority.fm. Please. Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Monday. March 23, 2006. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five-time award-winning majority report.

We are broadcasting live. Steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America. Downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, David J. Beer, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute, and chair of the Sells Foundation Chair in Immigration Policy. Also on the program today, Trump extends his deadline about the Strait of Hormuz by five or so days. Meanwhile, Chuck Schumer slams the potential $200 billion supplemental request. As Trump pretends to have successful talks with Iran, Israel bombs more Iranian infrastructure.

Israelis go hogwild on the West Bank, killing nine Palestinians, injuring 30. Also on the program today, Republicans block TSA funding. Trump announces he's sending ice to work at our airports. UN Weather Agency confirms that 2015 to 25 was the hottest decade on record. Supreme Court hears a case on grace periods for mail-in ballots. over the weekend Save Act Amendment targeting trans people fails New drop site report

Cuba willing to offer lump some settlement to Americans who lost property in the 1959 revolution Robert Mueller dies he's dead Talarico internal polling has him with small lead over both

Cornyn and Paxton in a Texas Senate race and it's day 8, 3,800 meat processing workers on strike in Colorado. All this and more on today's majority report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us on Monday. Emma Vigland out today on a California barnstorm trip. She just was on Francesco Fiorantini's Spituation Room,

which I think you can, sign up as a Patreon and actually view that live show. And then it just occurs to me, what's you doing for the rest of the week out there? Higher learning with Van Latham. Oh, okay. I mean, you could do that via Zoom, right? I mean, or no. Okay.

That's all right, whatever. And it just occurred to me, like, wait a second. You know, well, all right. So she'll be back Thursday. She'll be back Thursday, but you can see her on a bunch of other shows, apparently. So that's good stuff. We'll just do this one. Yeah.

All right. We're back here. We'll hold down the fort, as it were. A couple of house cleaning things. One, in five days, that's Saturday, March 28th, there's another no-king's protest. So Google that. We'll have more information as the week goes on on that No King's protest. But important to get out there, obviously, one of the things our Mad King has done was to declare war or not declare war.

Just go on an excursion. A little excursion. A little excursion that involved killing thousands of people and allowing Israel to sort of basically blow up Israel and the United States, for that matter, poison potentially millions in the years to come. And that's if it ends tomorrow, which, you know, if Trump, I think, had his way, he'd wrap this thing up if he knew how to. Also, I want to say a belated Eid Mubarak, meant to say it on Friday and just forgot. It was like, I remember three different occasions during the show. I'm like, oh, I got to say it.

But, Ed Mubarak, for those who celebrate. All right. I think that's it for all the house cleaning stuff that we had to do. Let's get into what has taken place over the past. And I will say also, I don't know that this drives. when Trump does this stuff. But there is no doubt. You know, people who follow this stuff are seeing all sorts of like bets on the exchange's futures in the stock market.

Because I think the stock market went up 900 points this morning. In part because Trump on Saturday tweeted or truth this. I think the White House ended up tweeting it afterwards, whatever. They issued a statement or one that we're not supposed to. I can't keep up with, are we supposed to treat this seriously or just ironically or just like the sub-a-good text, whatever? He wrote, if Iran doesn't fully open without threat, it's all capitalized, the Strait of Hormuz within 48 hours, that's capitalized, from this exact point in time, the United States of America

will hit and obliterate their various power plants in caps, starting that's in caps too, with the biggest one first. Exclamation point, you probably didn't have time to look that up. So he just wrote the biggest one. Thank you for your attention to this matter, President Donald J. Trump. pretty serious threat.

That was Saturday morning. In fact, we were very close. I think it would be around now, actually, would be the end of that 48 hours. Shortly after that, later that day, right? Was it? Sunday. He wrote, peace through strength.

To put it mildly. And that, of course, is in caps as well. All of it's in caps. to put it mildly. I know when I want to say something mildly, I put it in all caps. The question is, go back to this one, please. Put it back up. I just, you know, I don't want to get too, too pedantic.

But which part is, you know, when he says to put it mildly, he's obviously being, you know, he's trying to be ironic, right? Because he capitalized it. But which part was the mildly part? just like a lot of peace through strength or peace through a lot of strength. Or maybe it's just a lot of peace through a lot of strength. I just, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't even know what inspired him to do that. It was almost like, hey, guys, don't forget, I threatened you yesterday. Don't forget my threat. It's been to. I forgot about it. It's been 24 hours. So it was sort of designed for you to come back in an hour or two and go, okay, we're going to open it up. So don't forget.

Hello. 24 hours, just trying to remind you. This is honestly like where you have a situation where it's like we may have plans on, we may have plans on Friday night. But it's unclear if one of us has locked in the plans. And the other person wants to know what they are, but doesn't want to see. seem like they're hounding. So they send like, oh, here's a link I thought you might like to this story I saw in the New Yorker. Okay. And then here's another thing. It's like, hey, just want you to be thinking about. We're supposed to, are we doing, are we doing this on Friday

night or what? So there's a reason why they call it taco, I guess, because this is what announced this morning. I am pleased to report that the United States of America and the country of Iran have had over the last two days very good and productive conversations regarding a complete and total resolution of our hostilities in the Middle East, in the Middle East, based on the tenor and tone of these in-depth, detailed and constructive conversations, which. which will continue throughout the week, which is spelled W-I-T-C-H. Spooky.

So perhaps like maybe we have new envoys. We're sending our best cauldrons. Which will continue throughout the week. And then she'll come back for a week. And I have instructed the Department of War to postpone any and all military strikes against Iranian power plants and energy infrastructure for a $5. period, subject to the successes of the ongoing meetings and discussions. Thank you for your attention to this matter, President Donald J. Trump.

In a very strange move, the Iranians have totally denied that there have been any conversations. Now, maybe Iran is worried, maybe the Iranian leadership is worried that their domestic politics are such that people will perceive them as weak if they are engaged in any conversations with Donald Trump that hold off more bombings of power plants. Like maybe they're afraid to admit that they have been involved in negotiations that have at least kept their power plants from being bombed for five days. But that would be a weird incentive structure.

you'd almost want to think like if you were the Iranian government that, yep, we had those conversations and we bought ourselves another five days if that was true. But this is their signal to Trump like, nice try, a whole. We're waiting for the Marines. Bring it. Bring it. That's what Iran is basically saying. And Trump is pretending they're not, which, you know, at the end of the day is a positive.

I think if Trump can. pretend ignorance as to what's going on and decide like, we won and then go home. That's what I hope happens. Here he is outside. This is this morning. Again, Iran has denied there has been any conversations with the geniuses Jared Kushner and Whitkoff, whom a British envoy who was involved in negotiations the first time around seemed to think that Whitkoff and Kushner had no concept of anything they were talking about and had basically been offered something that no American had ever been offered before and they didn't realize it because they're just, they didn't bring an expert and they just were winging it.

But here's Trump. And this is good news too, I guess, just that Trump is willing to lie this bigly. You said there's many points of agreement with Iran right now. What can you give us a? Many. like 15 points, 15 points. Well, they're not going to have a nuclear weapon. That's number one.

That's number one, two, and three. They will never have a nuclear weapon. They've agreed to that. Are they directed to arrest or legal not going to arrest? Okay, they've agreed to that about, I don't know, depending on what. I mean, if you take the Iranian word for it, they, as early as like 2001, we're saying, we're not going to build a nuclear weapon. We don't believe in killing civilians in that manner.

If you take the word from the JPCA that they had signed in 2012, 14 with Obama, they were no longer enriching uranium in the numbers that, could be built into a bomb. Understand they want the ability to create nuclear power plants. And if you believe the foreign minister from Oman, they had offered to also not stockpile any enriched uranium, just maintain it for nuclear power use. So this is like one of those things like where, you know, the doctor says, you ask the doctor, after my hand surgery, will I be able to play the violin?

And the doctor says, I don't see why not. And it's like, good, because I could never before. But here is Trump, 15, 15 points of agreement. Three of them are the same thing up front. The other 12. I'll get back to you. They're small bore stuff. And people are asking, like, well, if everything's been resolved,

if we agree on 15 points, We're spending billions a day killing Iranians, either now or sort of like causing them death and illness in the future. Why are you asking for more money for the war? Mr. President. Do you still need $200 billion? We, it's always nice to have. It's always nice to have. It's a very inflamed.

Inflamed world and... The world is inflamed. Can I recommend beef tallow? What's going on with this global inflammation? To deal with the inflammation. It's because of rod turmeric. So that's where we are. I'm in.

Incidentally, gas prices are, you know, I don't know, $6 a gallon. But according to... Where is the... is J.D. Vance? Is he still in the country? Or did he is how deeply, like, is he buried in some type of nuclear silo? We've got to protect J.D.

So no public appearances, nothing. I think his chief policy person just quit, though. On, on the Middle East. I'm pretty sure his person

just left. J.D., you got to get in the submarine. Yeah. Yeah, we need to protect you. So don't say anything about anything. He's underground at NORAD. Remember when Whitkoff and Jared Kushner were on talking about things? This is like completely like a vase broke in the living room.

And then all of a sudden, like the kids have decided to finally go outside and play basketball for like seven hours. Where did everybody go? incidentally the OPEC oil embargo that implicated the next decade of economics you know how long that was in 1973 I remember it as a kid I remember getting in line like we had to be in wait in line for to get gas did it go to Jimmy Carter did it the embargo itself was in 1973 and and it was five months long. Happy Monday, everybody. A couple words from our sponsor.

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David Beer, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute, chair of the Sells Foundation on Immigration. Be right back after this. We are back, Sam Cedar, on the Majority Report. Emma Vigland out today. It is a pleasure to welcome to the program. David J. A. Beir, he is the Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute and Chair of the Cells Foundation on Immigration Policy.

see, David, welcome to the program. I actually think that you might be the first guest from Cato that I have had on my program in doing this for 21 years now. What an honor. So there you go. Thanks for having me on. I'm glad I was the one to break through. There you go.

I want to just start with this clip here because in many respects, this exchange tracks sort of like where there's been a divergence on some level from where Cato was or is. Really, Cato has been really more or less in the same place as far as I can tell over the past 30 years of immigration on immigration policy. And the Republican Party is sort of like, it was never necessarily running in parallel, but it's sort of like really veered off into some. But here is an exchange with you and Senator Kennedy. this clip the other day. I guess this happened about two weeks ago, but it's impressive in many different ways. But let's play this clip. Said, quote, they referring to Republicans think they control their way into us accepting

ethnic cleansing. End quote. Your words not mine. Did I read that correctly? That was in regard to a department of home. Did I read that? Did I read that? About advocating 100 million deportations. That is what DHS had on account. A hundred million deportations would be ethnic cleansing. You would be removing one third of the country.

So yes, there are people within the Department of Homeland Homeland Security. And you don't think this is hyperbolic. Give me 30 more seconds. I think advocating 100 million deportations is ethnic cleansing. Okay. So, I mean, he was. He was trying to, I almost felt bad for him because he was trying to read off tweets that were somehow, as he said, hyperbolic or, you know, inappropriate. And it was almost that he hadn't looked at the sheet of paper they had given him before.

It was just sort of fishing around and he stumbled on this. This is the thing that the Homeland Security posted on their Twitter feed. America after a hundred million deportations. I mean, it's, it's pretty shocking. But with that as a jumping off point, like, let's go back and talk about when that divergence happened. I want to talk just a little bit of history of immigration policy in this country in sort of like the modern era, if you will.

When did that break, you know, when did that break really start to happen? I mean, we had Reagan provided amnesty. for about 3 million plus, I think, of undocumented immigrants. What happens after that? Yeah, look, from our perspective at the Cato Institute, you know, my predecessors in my position were called to testify by Republican members of Congress, you know, throughout the 1980s, 1990s, on behalf of Bush administration and Reagan administration proposals to reform the legal immigration system.

expand legal immigration, legalize people who are in the country illegally, expand the high-skilled immigration system. One of my immediate predecessors in the early 2000s at Cato was an INS administrator under the Bush administration, the George W. Bush administration. And so the idea that there was this huge, you know, libertarians were not accepted as real, you know, part of the coalition or, you know, people who couldn't have good ideas on immigration. I mean, this couldn't be further from the truth. And from my perspective, I mean, I worked for a Republican member of Congress in 2013, 2014, and 2015, and during that period of time, he was openly working on bipartisan immigration reform. He's a Republican member, Raul Labrador from Idaho,

Republican member of Congress, deep red state, totally permissible. You know, for him, he got reelected. You know, so the idea that, you know, the idea that really what we've arrived at now is that Republicans cannot be pro-immigration and be Republicans. They can't have a platform of realistic immigration reform that benefits the United States, that grows our economy, that protects the rights of Americans. I mean, these were mainstream positions within the Republican Party not that long ago. Maybe it's always been, you know, hit 50-50.

There's always been this coalition that's just hard right or against anything that would smack of amnesty or anything that would be pro-immigration. But that idea that, you know, you can't have those people in your party is a new thing. that's been created just in the last few years, really by the Trump administration, Stephen Miller in particular. And so I've seen both sides of it. I've been on the inside. You know, we were able to collaborate and talk about immigration reform.

We didn't get it done. That was a failure. Maybe I had something to do with that. But at the end of the day, it was totally within our ability to be out there talking about reasonable immigration reform as Republicans. I mean, I remember there was a big push by George W. in 2000, say it was either four or five. The actual year escapes me at the moment.

And part of that was because he and Carl Rove had this sense. And certainly there was a big sense across, like, sort of like a, in the academic worlds that demographics were destiny. it was Judas and Texera, I think, that wrote that book about there's a certain inevitability that Democrats are going to control everything because of the nature of immigration in the way that the United States is changing in terms of like, you know, basically, I don't know, just demographically speaking, that didn't really actually happen. But there was a push by the Bush administration in 2005.

I think it was 05, to have some type of comprehensive immigration reform. And if I remember correctly, it was like Mark Levin and Laura Ingram and then a series of other right-wing talk show hosts across the country. They had major marches, major. They mobilized a lot of Republican voters to come out against that. it failed then. The next attempt was led by Marco Rubio. I specifically remember getting into a fight with another guy, like a guy I knew from college about Marco Rubio.

I'm like, dude, he's not for real. And he's like, well, this is going to be amazing. And Rubio dropped it like a hot potato on point. I mean, he like literally put his hand. It looked like he put his hand on a stove. And I think that was probably the one that you're talking about in 2013, right? What wasn't Rubio like one of the guys? who just completely walked away from it?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he actually voted for the bill. So he did actually get it through the Senate and with a super majority, that was a bipartisan bill. A lot of Republicans did vote for that legislation, a sign really of how different times have changed. You know, I would say, you know,

we are skipping over some history here. There was a 2007 effort where Democrats controlled and Bush administration was in favor of it. And really, I think that the Democrats had a role to play and bring that bill to about its downfall. But at the end of the day, I think when we're looking at it, it's really the Republican Party's problem at this point. The fact that there's just no support for any kind of reasonable immigration reform

on the Republican side is the real problem. problem. We have to get back to a point where bipartisan reform is at least possible. It's the only way it's going to get through the Senate. And unfortunately, as long as Trump is in the White House, able to torpedo anything, and Stephen Miller has such a big control over the Republican Party, we're not going to get any kind of reasonable compromise border security, securing the border, stopping illegal immigration, but also having pathways to legal status and legal immigration reform. I mean, that was the planks of comprehensive reform for decades, and it's really the only way to fix the problem going forward. I want to get into, I want to get into sort of like where the Republican Party is now, because I think you were on to it when you were calling out the desire to deport 100 million people.

I mean, the categories of people that have to be deported for 100 million people to go, are pretty expensive. Well, there's only 50 million immigrants in the United States. There's only, you know, 14, 15 million. But, you know, like, I don't know. Like, you could, you, I mean, I think, like, their ability to get creative on those things. Like, you know, like, they could say, you, you, the senator you work for was from Puerto Rico. I mean, they could, they could say, like, listen, Puerto Rico's not a state and it's a territory.

But you've got to stay there. I mean, like, who knows? I mean, look, obviously, you're talking about deporting U.S. citizens at that point, U.S. born citizens. They're already on that track. I mean, getting rid of birthright citizenship is the first step to that goal of 100 million deportation. Because once you take away the birth certificate as your defense against a deportation, then it opens up a whole new class of people.

because in order to prove your citizenship at that point, you have to prove the citizenship and legal status of your parents. And that really is the gateway into deporting a lot more people who were born here, who have, they're not immigrants. They're not being deported. They're being renditioned or expelled. I mean, what other words you want to talk about? I talk about a population purge. this is what the agenda is. And so many people are in denial, despite the Department of Homeland Security putting it out there. They're talking about it openly.

This is the goal, 100 million deportations, deporting U.S.-born Americans is on the table already. They're going to the Supreme Court. Once that birth certificate is no longer a defense, then, yeah, millions and millions, tens of millions of people who are born here could be deported just from that. And then you're really going to be explicit about this. So there's two elements to this. One is like, like you say, once the birth certificate, your own birth certificate itself doesn't that you're naturalized or that it does not provide defense,

it just becomes that much harder to generate the evidence you need if you've been singled out. I mean, we've seen this in operation, right? We've seen people, we've seen U.S. citizens get scooped up in this. They didn't have the ability to prove in the moment and they get deported. We've seen many, many people who are legal here. They're not citizens, but they are here legally through, get deported, get held for months on end. We've seen all that happen. And so the idea is that, like, if there's less ability to prove that you are allowed,

to be here, you are gone because there's no sort of like, there's nobody, there's nobody providing any accountability for who gets lifted up. There's no adjudication of it. But the other thing we should be explicit about, I think it's important is, for the most part, this is about a, it's not going to be a random 100 million people. It is going to be people who are not white in some fashion and that may mean they're indigenous to this country. It may mean that they're black or brown. Surely some people will, you know, maybe they have an accent. So, you know, there'll be some white people like, oh, you, you have an accent. You're gone. But for the most part, that's what's going to be targeted. It's not going to be folks like you or I, at least not on immigration, not on that grounds.

it could be other grounds. But that we, this is a racial, a semi, like in the same way that like, I don't know if Aryans were racist, we're, you know, we're necessarily a race, but it's a similar dynamic. It's about a national purity that they want to push. Yeah, I mean, the preface to the tweet about 100 million deportations is something about being besieged by the third world. And so, yeah, there are quite excited. explicit, it's not going to be a random 100 million, they're going to know who the third worlders are

within the country. And it's not going to be based on citizenship, obviously. It's going to be based on other factors, your ancestry, your ethnicity. And, you know, that's, you know, this is not really even debatable. I mean, this is not just one tweet either. I mean, this, this pattern of putting out, This is the most explicit in terms of numerical numbers and targeting, but DHS has been putting out this type of content throughout this administration talking about how we need to reclaim our country in very overtly white supremacist terms. I mean, there's no other way to describe it. I mean, they're quoting from white supremacist anthems and music and and other material constantly. And this is just the one tweet where they just openly say it, we want 100 million people out of this country. And that's our marching orders.

And under any other administration, including the first Trump administration, the tweet would have been taken down within minutes. whoever was helped, whoever did it would have been fired. This administration leaves it up, no apology, no even clarification. There's no investigation as to who's responsible because everyone knows that this is what they're doing, that this is, it's not an aberration. They racially profile openly. They talk about it. They defend it to the Supreme Court.

And, you know, it riles up the left. makes libertarians mad, and that's good from their perspective because they really don't care about anything else. Where are we on Kavanaugh stops? We hear that term a lot. Will you just explain to folks what that means, because we talk about profiling. And it wasn't that long ago we thought racial profiling was bad. Yeah.

Yeah. So this phenomenon came out of a court case in law. Los Angeles, where the administration, Department of Homeland Security, was profiling people on the street using their demographics. And it wasn't just race. It was also the type of job they were doing. So it's, you know, race plus being construction worker, being at a home depot while Hispanic, being in a Hispanic area while Hispanic. These were all things that were used to justify stopping people and demanding that they have their papers on them, pointing guns at them, threatening them, detaining them.

If they couldn't prove that they were a citizen on the spot or didn't want to or ran away from them, they were tackled and detained. And so the injunction in that case, now the administration had argued we're not doing this. There's no racial profiling here. It doesn't matter. You know, you can issue an injunction to stop.

and it won't make any difference to ICE operations in Los Angeles. The court issues an injunction and ICE arrests drop by two-thirds immediately after the injunction. So they were absolutely caught red-handed doing racial profiling. So then they go to the appeals court and say, look, you can't issue an injunction stopping racial profiling and more explicitly defending the idea that they can use. use this type of demographic profiling. The court again says it's unconstitutional. So they appeal to the Supreme Court and they get an emergency order overturning the injunction. And that's where Kavanaugh, he was the only one, it's unfortunate for him because he was the only one with

the courage to actually explicitly defend what DHS was doing. And it defend the court's decision, which was six three. All the conservatives on the court voted the same way. to allow this to continue. And he said, you know, as long as it's a brief stop and it's not a big deal, and, you know, this is no different than a cop seeing someone casing a bank and deciding to, you know, check them out, this is the exact same as being Hispanic at Home Depot. And so they've allowed it to go on and continue. We saw it in Minneapolis and Chicago, and it spread throughout the United States.

Now they're training state and local cops to do the same things. And now all Florida and a lot of Texas cops are now being trained to be ICE agents and do the same racial profiling at the state and local level. So it's spreading throughout the United States. And they use all sorts of what means to detain and stop drivers based on these factors. I mean profiling that they use. Like how hard is it to train somebody? Like if that guy looks brown or black, or if you hear an accent that sounds different from Texas, go ask for their papers.

Well, the training is really untraining, right? Right. They're trained not to do this stuff. They're trained. Exactly. I need probable cause. I need specific evidence related to the person that I am stopping. Be that that would stand up in court.

This is like training cops to be trigger-happy, essentially, in terms of their investigation. Okay. So, all right. What has there really a change insofar as like in the wake of Minnesota where Minnesotans really, I mean, just, I, I mean, I hope that it remains the case. but I think it's very likely that like Minnesota, what they did is was historical in terms of the way that they fought back and just like and in the conditions in which they did it. I mean, all of it, all of it. It's not to say there's no more ice there, but the level of aggression and oppression and just like the invasion of that many people into a space, it cost them politically. and Christy Gnome is out.

As you know, part of that was the commercial, but I'm sure it was other. It was, you know, broadly just like somebody needed to be the fall guy for Minnesota, and she's a woman. So it's obvious that it's going to be her. Where, like, where do you anticipate, do you anticipate them ramping back up at different points? I mean, there's also almost like as a secondary issue is ICE as a like a, like a, like a military organization. And now they're getting tested out in TSA lines. I mean, but putting that aspect of it aside for a moment, do you anticipate them like having a Minneapolis redux? Are they going to how are they going to do this?

presumably they still want to make our nation pure and get 100 million people out. So where do they go from here, do you think? Yeah. No, I mean, it's amazing how, you know, she's been the fall girl. Greg Bovino, who was the head of the Border Patrol operation, was the fall guy before her. And yet this is all a Stephen Miller operation. Donald Trump, at the start of this thing, put out, you know, one of his truth social rants, where he says explicitly, what the strategy is, we're going to go into Democrat cities and take them over

and start demanding papers from people until we can deport all these people that we want to deport. So it was totally a Trump operation, a White House operation, Miller and was telling Noem what to do. Bovino goes in there with his officers, guns blazing, telling them to ignore the Constitution. And yeah, the pushback was historic. It was really an unprecedented nonviolent resistance that we saw in Minnesota. And it did force out Border Patrol, largely back to the border, resulted in these staff changes. But at the basic level, they're not changing their strategy. They're just trying to keep it out of the public eye and more making it. more diffuse across the country. So now it's, you know, the ice agents are being sprinkled across

cities. So it's smaller scale, but it's happening everywhere. And that keeps it out of the public eye better than some of the other things. Now, they haven't shot anyone since the firings, but there have been lots of cases documented of them pulling guns on people, doing a lot of the same tactics, interrogating people who are recording them, stopping people who are recording them. So a lot of the same things are still happening in Minnesota and across the country. You're just hearing about them less in large part because they're more isolated and diffuse. I would also argue that we're hearing about them less because the Ellison's took over TikTok and Musk, I think, is throttling these things on Twitter.

and the sad fact of our media, our media environment is that, like, that's where even the TV networks will get it. It's certainly where we would get it. And it almost feels like there needs to be a new clearinghouse for these type of things because on social media now, they are, and I would say probably the same thing's happening on Instagram. social media, they seem to be really, really buried. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know about that. It's certainly possible. And there's no doubt that a big part of the reason for the downfall of TikTok

was because of the content on there. They were explicit about that. They didn't like that there was political content they disagreed with on spreading like wildfire on this platform, which is one of the main reasons why Cato, filed a brief in those cases saying this is unconstitutional to target a platform because of the content on it. But, you know, ultimately, Supreme Court said no problem here, and the sale was forced. And of course, we already knew at that point where the sale would be going to and what

political persuasion would end up owning that social media site. But, you know, just going back to the tactics here. I mean, there's so many different ways they can use ice. It is literally a private army. They don't, they're getting involved in airport security because that's what they think is going to sell at this moment. Then they'll go and storm into farms. They'll target Somalis because they're the most unpopular immigrants they can find. I mean, this is the strategy. The is whatever ticks up on the conservative social media is how they're going to respond to it. And we've seen it throughout this administration. They target one nationality after another based on whatever is peaking on conservative media.

It's the Haitians. It's the Somalis. Oh, we're going to go after the Afghans. It's whatever the hot button topic is on social media and conservative circles, they're going to go after. And unfortunately, that means a whole lot of harassment for a whole lot of innocent people because this administration is not focused on public safety when it comes to immigration enforcement in the United States. All right. Let's talk just briefly before, you know, the optimal immigration policy.

I mean, there's obviously like, particularly, on the Democratic side, the Democrats have completely, it seems to me, and we can go over what Biden did and what things were good, what things, not so much. But as a political matter, like a rhetorical matter, like Democrats have just completely run away from this issue. They're so terrified of their own shadow here. Regardless of what the polling says at any given point, they are just terrified of engaging in this in a way that creates a vacuum and nature hates a vacuum and something's going to fill it and that's what's happened. And there's many issues that we could, we could say the same thing about Democrats in regards

to this. But, but, but, but, but speak like, what, from your perspective, what's the optimal immigration policy? Like, what is, like, what's the goal in terms of do we have, like, is there a certain number of immigrants? I mean, I've seen your work on, uh, the, uh, economic impact of immigrants. Um, and, uh, it is. a net positive. I suppose theoretically,

there's a number of people that we could have in this country. I don't know if it's $500 billion, $600 billion, with the existing resources we have where maybe it starts becoming a net negative. But I don't know how many millions, tens of millions that we are away from that. And I don't know where we would find those people. But so what is like, what should be the goal both stated in terms of dollars, but also in terms of like what set of,

policies would be optimal in an optimal non the politics and not a question. Yeah. Yeah. No, look, at the end of the day, we want an orderly legal process by which people come to the United States. We had that historically prior to the 1920s when we banned most legal immigration based on, you know, this ludicrous eugenicist idea that immigrants were going to lower the IQ of Americans and, and, and destroy our blood.

and a lot of the stuff that honestly Trump has brought back. I mean, he's talking about... I was going to say, fortunately, lowering the IQ of Americans seems to be almost like, like physically impossible at this point. Well, well, look, I mean, when you think about what our policy should be, you start from a starting point of what are the supposed problems here? The problem is they're using welfare benefits or their net costs or they commit crime or you go down the list and you say, well, we could have a policy whereby people come here,

they get vetted, they're not eligible for benefits, they have to pay into the system, they have to find a place to live that's not in a hotel in New York City. We can solve these problems. We can come together and have a legal conversation. What does the immigration system look like? And anyone can come up with a better immigration system than the one we had in 2021 through or 2024 or any other time in the last hundred years. Really, I've been at town halls, Republican town halls in red states where people are throwing hostile

questions at the member of Congress that I worked for. And he comes back and he says, well, what's the immigration policy that you would want to see? And every single one of those people came back with an immigration policy that's far more humane, orderly, legal, and permissive, generous, however you want to. to describe it than the actual system that we have today. So we don't know the exact number of immigrants. I mean, that's going to be something based on the needs of the country and what we want as Americans in terms of employment and resources and so on. But the basic premise should be

that if people come and they support themselves and they're peaceful people, they're going to be a net contributor to our society. And so once you adopt that basic premise, then you can work out the particulars of how that looks like. You get a visa abroad. What's the process? What's a reasonable amount of time to wait? All of those things are questions that we could answer and have reasonable conversations about. But right now, we spend all the time talking about just ludicrous nonsense and debating things that have nothing to do with the facts of our legal immigration system as it is today, which is that just 3% of all the people applying get through the legal immigration system in 2024 under the open borders, Biden administration, just 3% got permanent resident

status of all the people applying and all the backlogs and all the waiting lists, all that stuff. So we have an incredibly restrictive immigration system, and we need to fix that, create a viable path for people who want to come here, or we're going to be dealing with this illegal immigration problem for the next century. So, the, we have like these fictions that are created. I mean, it seems to me there's two impulses for wanting this to be an ongoing problem that we theoretically can't solve, right?

Where the answer should be, you know, if there is some, you know, I mean, frankly, I think like, if you walk from. Central America to Texas. I feel like you've passed the test. But whatever. Some measure of like you want to be a citizen. You're here to better your life,

et cetera, et cetera. And we give you an easy path to citizenship that requires, I don't know, like you take a test and like you get your driver's license. You're on a path to citizenship. It seems to me there's two sort of

like things that are inhibiting this. Or maybe it's three. But one is just absolute like fear, ignorance, racism. Maybe I shouldn't push all those things together, but that's you know, it's in that basket. There's some people you're never going to reach. There's others who are like, well, I didn't know that we were going to deport the guy I'm friends with.

I thought we were going to deport just the other people. I'm not friends with, which of course, you know, racism works with that way too. The other is, though, is that, like, there are industries and corporate players who want to exploit workers. Like, everything we saw with child labor, it seems to me, rollbacks on child labor, was a function of almost one-to-one. If there's a state or a lawmaker who wants to make it easier for kids to work, it's in a, like, meat processing plant or some other area where they know, some Hispanic kids are going to come and they are no longer required to get a signature from their parent so they can have a 15-year-old or 16-year-old immigrant

who is here without papers or maybe, you know, in process and not supposed to be working. And I have no liability because the law says I don't need to get, once they tell me they're 15, they're old enough to work. And that's what that's about. So we have, but beyond that, we have like, I'm going to, I mean, we see it every day now. You finish putting in the roof. The roofer owns the business.

Like, I don't want to pay those guys because I got five more. I can just put up there tomorrow on a different house. And I call ICE. That dynamic exists whether ICE is ever called. So those are the, those to me seem to be the two sort of like vectors of resistance to an actual reform of our immigration system. And then, you know, Democrats who are just afraid of offending either one of those two groups. What is your sense of like, like, how much would you attribute which to which? And how much is we're looking at the same thing, just the money that is interested in exploiting workers is also generating that fear?

Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to debt right down to it, the dominant problem. is partisanship. And that really has two forms. One is the immigrants are coming to vote for the Democrats, and therefore I can't possibly allow immigrants to come in, even though Republicans had only ever done well when the immigrant share of the population has been high. I mean, they've controlled the House of Representatives about 80 percent of the years since 1995, when the immigrant chair went above 10 percent. They basically didn't control the House of Representatives at all prior to 1990. 40 years, yeah.

Yeah, basically back to the 30s. So the idea that they can't compete when there's immigrants is just not true. The other part of it, partisanship, is anything that the Democrats are for, we need to be against. And that polarization, you know, plays out in every field, not just immigration. So I do think that's a big part of it. It's very difficult to overcome, but it's a factor. that we have to deal with. On the more, you know, reasonable concerns about, well, you know,

protecting the rights of workers when they get here and things like that, all of that, of course, would be much easier if people were here in a legal status where they could defend their rights and change jobs without fear of deportation. These are all things that we can work on within the immigration construct. When you look at the kids who are coming, the New York Times interviewed hundreds of these kids. And what did they say? Well, the reason why we came and not our parents is because we were able to come. We were allowed to cross the border and get released, whereas our parents were prohibited. So there is a group in the United States who would say we would rather have these kids working in factories and meat processing and all this other stuff rather than create a visa process

for adults to come legally here and work, temporarily or permanently. And so, again, these are problems that would be addressed best through a legal immigration reform as opposed to one that, you know, just bans people from coming and forces them to work underground and all the rest. And so we're never going to deport 15 million people. I don't care what the Trump administration is selling. It's a fantasy land. Their proposal is not actually going to solve illegal immigration. And that's a big part of the messaging here that people need to understand. They are selling a false bill of goods. They're not going to solve people working here under the table. They're not going to solve illegal immigration.

They're not going to solve all these problems in our immigration system. Having an legalization and a path to legal status and a legal immigration system is the actually feasible. We could fix it right now in terms of the things that you're talking about with a real legal immigration reform proposal. How close was the operations of the Biden administration to like where was that on the good bad immigration system spectrum? I mean, obviously he needed more money. He need the, you know, anything he could do was sort of less a structural change and more just sort of like, you know, I guess duct tape and Jerry rigging. But to the extent that that was happened, like, just give us a, because I still, I hear people.

actually like reasonable people go like we wouldn't have this immigration problem if Biden had just like done something and he had done something it's all you know there's a caravan coming to take my second house in on a lake in Minnesota type of situation. Yeah, I mean look, the Biden administration, you know, ignored a lot of warnings, including for me about how to address this problem. They had banned asylum from day one. They had Title 42 in place. They thought they could just expel people back to Mexico and they'd stop coming. That was not true. Even in the groups that they expelled almost 100% of the time, if you look at Mexican single adults, they were all expelled. Basically 100% of them were expelled back to Mexico. And they kept coming in

greater and greater numbers because there were jobs here and the attraction of our red hot economy brought lots of people who wanted to work here and there was no legal way for them to come in. So to the extent that Biden screwed up, it was he was too harsh at the beginning. He would, well, he was to, he didn't reopen the legal immigration system. I mean, he didn't, he did not. This is just a fact. He did not reopen the border. He kept the ports of entry closed to asylum seekers. All of the consulate. were closed in the Western Hemisphere throughout 2021. So it's just not true that he reopened the border on day one or any of this nonsense.

Yes, lots of people came because there was opportunity and there were jobs. And we should want people who want to seek opportunity, who want to contribute economically. And unfortunately, we didn't have a policy that allowed that to happen legally. So we ended up with the dysfunction and disorder at the border. All of those problems were caused by the anti-immigration policies, by Congress, by the Biden administration, everything that led to so many asylum seekers not being able to work, having no legal right to work. These are all policies advocated by the people opposed to immigration, not by the people who wanted to have a policy that promotes integration and promotes economic vitality

within our society. And so from my standpoint, they ignored my recommendations until 2024 when it comes to having a legal process for people to apply. They started doing that very slowly and tepidly in 2020, 2023, 24. And it did work. It did reduce the number of people crossing illegally. The Republicans called it, you know, amnesty at the border and, you know, demagogical. did and talked about how they were flying in illegals and all this stuff. No, these were legal channels

by which people could come and apply abroad and enter the country legally. This was a benefit. It was the right direction. It ultimately, from 2023 to the end of his term in January of 2025, the number of people crossing the border illegally and being arrested by Border Patrol had declined by over 90% from its peak. And then Trump comes in. And then Trump comes in, and reduces it further by another 90%, but from a much lower number. I mean, this was a lower number than when Biden entered office. So Trump left office the first time with a far higher number than Biden left office with. And so, yes, he reduced it further from a very low, very low days.

But Biden was able to reduce undocumented crossings by. providing a process. Yeah. Right. So the, the, um, the actual number of new immigrants may have been higher under Biden, if I understand you. Yeah. Then under the legal, the legal flows. Yes.

Which is what is it, which is, I mean, that this is like, this is the thing is that they're talking about illegal crossings and, uh, but it really, the problem is, the country's not maintaining its. you know, national purity. I mean, that's really the complaint, right, with Biden. It's just couched in sort of like a different language so they don't have to be as explicit. Like, we just, we didn't like the color of the people coming in. Yeah, but bottom line is they said, look, we can't have these people come legally or illegally.

It doesn't matter. We just don't want these people. And once you say that, then you can't really have a conversation about, well, what's the legal way for people to come and all that. I mean, once you say, we just don't want them and it doesn't matter how they come, then you've just closed off the entire conversation. And there's only one solution, and it's the Trump solution, which is just total inhumanity, chaos in the interior, you know,

just the brutality that we've seen, totally ignoring the rule of law, all of that stuff that we've seen over the last year. Yeah, it's kept illegal immigration, new people coming in at a low level. but we've traded that for a much greater chaos in the interior because he is canceled more people's legal status who had legal status in January 2025. He's canceled more of those people's legal status than he is deported. So he's created more illegal immigrants here in the United States than there were in January 2025 because of all of the things that he's done to cancel people's legal status and get rid of legal immigration. And so he's creating a new chaos, a new problem,

more brutality, rights violations of Americans. It's not a good trait. We should have a legal process by which people can come and contribute that would benefit us as Americans as opposed to this current, you know, just absolute anarchy in the streets with ICE agents just doing whatever they like. David J. Behr, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato. Institute chair the sales foundation on immigration policy thanks so much for your time today really appreciate it thanks for having me on all right folks that's it for this half of the program um heading to the fun half wherein i hope to get um about a million iams talking about how we had our first libertarian on without it getting testing in any way um i imagine we'll have some people

who will say like, how could you not say anything about the Cato insignia on the jacket? Did you know that? No, I did not. At one point, I got hypnotized by it. I couldn't. But good stuff. I do think that like, listen, it's an open question is to how much of the racism and the sort of like Uber nationalism and the purity nationalism. I mean, I don't, you know, what to call it.

But it's definitely all those things apply. To me, the open question is about how much of the American public is subscribing to, like, the bigotry versus the, you know, standard of living, what they perceive as competition for jobs or whatever. From the top, though, it is a white supremacist project. Well, from the top, it's a white supremacist project. What spurs that distrust and makes it easier to believe what you're talking about in terms of like fight for resources is the fact that like if there's a fight for resources and it is easier for those people to blame undocumented or immigrants in general for that than it is to blame their neighbors who they've had dinner with. regardless of where their immigrant status is. Or the people who own everything, including your job and apartments from thousands of miles away. Well, exactly.

It's just like it's, it is a lower hanging fruit. But then also the question is like how much of that bigotry, you know, some of this is like natural in the sense that like, I have less trust for people who live on the West Coast than the East Coast. I mean, that's it like there is a certain, like, you know, Worcester in particular, very parochial place. There's a certain parochialism that everybody has. But also that parochialism is like, you know, kindling. Often the fire is by folks who want to be able to exploit a certain class of people. because it makes it

it's easier for them to get cheap labor. It's easier for them. I mean, so there's a lot of stuff that mixes in there. And I think ultimately, if we're going to get

some type of like rational immigration policy, rational and humane. This is like, they actually line up largely, one to one. Like rational, self-interest as a nation

lines up pretty well with a humane policy. I mean, the irrationality of creating these border walls through sort of these landscapes that, I mean, I'm seeing all these videos of like sheriffs from border areas being like, we can't, like, it's pointless to build that wall there. You're going to destroy tourism in the area.

Like, this is insane. But on the other hand, it's contracts for, you know, people who build the wall and people patrol it and the people in the Gulf of Mexico drive speedboats around and all that stuff. There's a lot of money in that sort of grift. Yep. But all of that is in there. And I have to say, like, you know, I'm a little skeptical.

I've been a little skeptical of Cato. I still remain a little skeptical of Cato. But we may be in a time where, like, they're, you know, the corporate interests and the libertarian interests that founded that place in certain areas realize like we're way out of step with what our natural habitat is in terms of like

those country called the Republicans seem to really not care. It's very sort of paradoxical that at the moment libertarians seem to have the least amount of cachet sort of anywhere their positions look the most correct

on this position. Is that paradoxical? No, actually. Is that paradoxical though? Benefit of not being in any practical political engagement. Is that paradoxical or does that make absolute total sense? Because like the way Dave Smith basically bought and sold the libertarian movement for Trump as Chase Oliver had frankly a good position. I mean, David Beer's position on immigration in the last election. Yep. I mean, losers. Is that paradoxical? I don't think that's, I think paradox is not the exact right word. I think it's like natural. Yeah. Like most obvious.

when your power is at a low ebb, you're willing to sort of like... Yeah. If they want power, they should go back to question seatbelt law. Exactly. What's going on with light bulbs right now is insane. Get a license to operate my frickin' toaster. I miss those days.

That was sort of almost like some of the best times my life. I honestly still remember that day, yeah. watching the debate. It's like what a minor probably felt like when you found like a rich vein of like gold ore or something like that. Yes. Holy cow. We're going to be rich. We're going to be rich.

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Check it out. You can get that as well. Matt, what's happening on the Matt Lechion Media universe? Yeah, on a Friday on the Jacobin show, available at the Jacobin Meg YouTube channel. We talked with Alex Pernell, a great DSA organizer in Texas, who posed a question, And what can we learn from Zoron nationally? That, you know, and him and David get into a little bit of what makes New York specific, but also some things that transfer across.

So if you're curious about what DSA can do on that question, I think it's a really, really smart conversation. Check that up. See you in the fun half. You are in for it. All right, folks, 64, 6, 625, 739, 20, see you in the fun. No. Are you ready?

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