The Majority Report with Sam Seder - 3636 - The Human Cost of DOGE's Reckless Destruction of USAID w/ Nicholas Enrich

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Welcome back to The Majority Report   On today's program:   After turning his back on every campaign promise and tanking the economy for a meaningless war, Donald Trump's approval rating is nearing historic lows.   Nicholas Enrich, former civil servant who worked at USAID under four administrations joins the program to discuss his new book: "Into the Wood Chipper: a Whistleblower's Account of How the Trump Administration Shredded USAID"   In the Fun Half:   Senator Richard Blumenthal asks three different Trump judicial nominees if Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election and all three refuse. Meanwhile, as Blumenthal questions the nominees, Senator Chuck Grassley is caught on a hot mic asking why they won't acknowledge Biden's victory.   Senator Chris Coons asks a Trump judicial nominee if Trump is ineligible for a third term per the 22nd amendment and the nominee is afraid to acknowledge the law and close the door on a third term.   WNBA star Kelsey Plum does not understand how marginal tax rates work. If you have been listening to MR for more than a week than you know that marginal tax rate literacy is his passion project.   The Daily Wire has had to layoff 50% of their employees after they failed in their children's content endeavor.   All that and more.   To connect and organize with your local ICE rapid response team visit ICERRT.com The Congress switchboard number is [phone]. You can use this number to connect with either the U.S. Senate or the House of Representatives. Follow us on TikTok here: https://www.tiktok.com/@majorityreportfm Check us out on Twitch here: https://www.twitch.tv/themajorityreport Find our Rumble stream here: https://rumble.com/user/majorityreport Check out our alt YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/majorityreportlive Gift a Majority Report subscription here: https://fans.fm/majority/gift Subscribe to the AMQuickie newsletter here: https://am-quickie.ghost.io/ Join the Majority Report Discord! https://majoritydiscord.com/ Get all your MR merch at our store: https://shop.majorityreportradio.com/ Get the free Majority Report App!: https://majority.fm/app Go to https://JustCoffee.coop and use coupon code majority to get 10% off your purchase Check out today's sponsors: COZY EARTH: Go to cozyearth.com/MAJORITYREPORT for an exclusive 20% off. TRUST & WILL: Get 20% off trustandwill.com/MAJORITY AURA FRAMES: Exclusive $25-off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/MAJORITY. Promo Code MAJORITY SUNSET LAKE CBD: Today is the last day to us coupon Code "MayDay26" for $8 off all smokable hemp products and vape carts at SunsetLakeCBD.com Follow the Majority Report crew on Twitter: @SamSeder @EmmaVigeland @MattLech On Instagram: @MrBryanVokey Check out Matt's show, Left Reckoning, on YouTube, and subscribe on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/leftreckoning Check out Matt Binder's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/mattbinder Subscribe to Brandon's show The Discourse on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/ExpandTheDiscourse Check out Ava Raiza's music here! https://avaraiza.bandcamp.  

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On the program today, Nicholas Einrich, former civil servant who worked at USAID under four administrations, an author of Into the Woodchipper, a whistleblower's account of how the Trump administration shredded USAID. Also on the program today, Iran threatens retaliation after Trump says U.S. will guide ships through the Strait of Hormuz. should say like about 15 different reports all contradicting itself about all of that, not to be surprised. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court just moments ago temporarily restores access to the abortion pill Miffa Pristone, which is delivered by mail. This is following the Fifth Circuit.

That's the one out of Texas, the right wing one, ban of Miffa Pristone. by mail. Also on the program today, Republicans seized on the Supreme Court destruction of the Voting Rights Act last week by beginning to eliminate black elected districts in their states and, in fact, offices. U.S. to withdraw 5,000 troops from Germany report FBI redirected 25 percent of its staff to target immigrants for deportation. That's a 23 times increase. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, in a secret tape, it's revealed, helped a Republican state treasurer's re-election campaign because the Democrat, who was running, was not supporting him as Harris's VP. Gosh, it's such a shocker that he's so petty. Two-thirds of Americans now say the country is headed in the wrong direction. new report Obamacare enrollment to decline by

20% leaving 5 million people newly uninsured lastly daily wire cuts half of its staff in a retrenchment oh and speaking of which Rudy Giuliani's on his

deathbed all this and more on today's majority report welcome ladies and gentlemen It is Fun Day Monday? Fun Day Monday.

Just looking for some new batteries. Right. For your mouse. My mouse. One of your many mouses. How many mouses do you have on that? Mice. How many mice do you have on that desk?

It's not important. One, two, three. Three. Three. Okay. Mm-hmm. I like to. That's the way I roll.

Right. It's a variety pack. I mean, I'm not saying that there are certain idiosyncrasies. have. I'm not denying that. No one would deny that. Right. Okay. You denying that would be a denial of reality. That's true. And that's

when we would put you in the home. Some people might say, like, you know, you might get just a stronger computer to run four different monitors. I guess some might. I guess some people, I guess some people might say that. Matt. Incidentally, we fixed the cameras.

We did. And you know how, well, I mean, two, to, too, too. My camera. We, well, you don't want to say it? I was up all night. It was a very, very technical fix where I had to do some coding. Matt said it's hardwired into the computer. It was hardwired into the Wi-Fi. Because I asked you to use that.

What do you mean, you asked me that? I mean, in Matt's defense, how can we tell which court is going where? It's like a snake pit down here. Matt, do you know what it's the net looks like? Well, first of all, who set up that computer? Who set that one up? Oh, the first one was it? Neither was this one.

Yeah, but you're in charge of the wire. So it turns out I was on the Wi-Fi and not the Ethernet for like how many years? I mean, since COVID. And that's why my camera was glitching out and I was having a bit of a breakdown about it. Anyway. So we've got... I'm in 1080P. Well, things look great.

I still have a, what do you call it, a panty hose over my camera. that way people can't tell how quickly I'm aging. Folks, there are, we're going to have an expert on oil and what we can anticipate if this conflict with Iran continues over, and maybe even in the event that it was to somehow wrap up within a couple of days. It feels like it's the opposite, but it's very difficult to tell. We're also going to have an expert on the Voting Rights Act later this week. But nevertheless, prices are through the roof for gas. They are anticipated to continue to climb.

You see reports of gas tracking services and companies and apps who are like, we don't have the capacity to, we just didn't design our apps to, to check in real time for gas increases, because it's happening multiple times a day in some places. Places like Ohio and Illinois, gas prices are just exponentially growing. And Donald Trump's handling of the Iran conflict is also getting panned. And here's ABC News reporting on Trump's just absolutely dismal approval ratings. Tonight, as the war with Iran drives gas prices to a four-year high, new polling shows two-thirds of Americans say the country is headed in the wrong direction. President Trump's disapproval rating hitting a record 62 percent.

And the president underwater on every issue tested. Cost of living, inflation, the war. with Iran and the economy. On the campaign trail, Trump had promised to lower the cost of living. We're going down and getting gasoline below, $2 a gallon, bring down the price of everything from electricity rates to groceries, airfares, and housing costs. But now gas prices surging to an average of $4.43 a gallon nationwide. Americans forced to make tradeoffs.

44% say they've cut back on driving, 42% say they've cut other household expenses. I cut down on groceries a little bit because gas is just more of an expense. Now I used to not think about it. Jet fuel costs have nearly doubled since the war began. The Trump administration insists the pain is temporary. Once the straight opens, you'll see prices come down, come down immediately. But experts say it could take more than a year for gas prices to return to pre-war levels.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy pressed by her Martha Radditz. Energy prices have come up. You're right. And again, you have to look at the president to say, what does a leader do? What does a president do when he sees a potential nuclear Iran? He's not going to tolerate it. But with, despite Trump's numbers, the poll shows that Americans do not trust Democrats much more on the issues. Of the 11 issues tested, Democrats are only trusted more on three issues, health care, education, and the cost of living with.

Selena Wang at the White House tonight. There's a lot to say about this. I should tell you that in terms of like just where Donald Trump's approval rating lies, in modern times, I think Harry Truman was, you know, had probably the lowest in like the past hundred years because of the Korean war. but the George W. Bush, if I remember correctly,

the lowest he got the, and maybe it wasn't for very long, was like 25%, right at the end of his term when we had the financial crisis. This is after Katrina in Iraq and his attempt to privatize

Social Security, 25%. And Nixon, I think, was probably also around 25% when he left. But remember, this is like, as they're exiting. This is not in year two. This is probably, this is my guess, I don't know this

for sure. This is the lowest. Any president has been in their second year of their term, even if it was their second term. And have you ever seen a situation? Oh, thank you. Have you, yeah, sorry, I had a little cough. But have you ever seen a situation too where the president is also so deeply unpopular after doing the exact opposite of what he said he was going to do on the campaign trail? I mean, the no new wars thing was a big part of why he kind of won by default over the Democrats. Yeah. No, I mean, I don't. That's unprecedented, too. Like, he has, he lied his way into the presidency and is going back on every campaign promise.

George Herbert Walker Bush famously got, I think, voted out because he said, read my lips, no new taxes against Dukakis and then raise taxes. Yeah. Although, I mean, that was the ABC segment covering that. They're the communist Kimmel network as well, right? So you can't trust what they're saying, except every poll is horrendous for him at this point. And there was an analysis by Morgan Stanley that this is the biggest decline in the dollar, 10% since January 2025 in 50 years. And the same analysis says if things continue, the dollar is going to drop another 10% by the end of the year.

It's an overall just like iceberg. It's going to help our exports, actually. It will help our trade imbalance. But aside from that, it's going to be a problem. We should also say, too, like, we just had a major airline collapse. Now, a lot of that is their own fault, but they were pushed over the brink because of the cost of jet fuel. We may see multiple ones collapse or need a bailout because of the jet fuel situation coming out of Iran. And then we're just going to start to see a cascading a bunch of stuff as a function of that.

The amazing thing about that poll is the failure of the Democratic Party. party to be positioned to take full advantage of this. And in part, it's a function of their failure to sort of build on the good things that Joe Biden did in terms of the economy and whatnot. Like all of that message was completely muddled with the Harris campaign. it's been completely muddled really for more than a decade, really, 30 or 40 years since the first Clinton presidency, where the idea of a full-throated economic populism, both as a, in terms of, there's been some in terms of rhetoric, to be fair, even Clinton sort of got a little bit populist in his campaigning, and that's what was effective for him. Obama did too. but they never fall through in the context of major economic transformation as they govern. And it's just hard to sell it as rhetoric if you repeatedly do not provide the goods after that rhetoric. And so now we have a situation where the Democrats cannot capitalize in the way that they should,

they're certainly going to do well in the House. they may even retake the Senate but we need historic levels of of majorities for the repair that needs to be done to this country

so we have no one wants a nuclear Israel and it's not just that you can go back to his famous you know for every blue collar we lose in Pittsburgh we're going to pick up two

in the the Philly suburbs and in in the fashioning of a new electorate that was more economically neoliberal for lack of a better term. I mean, literally. So that's where we are. All right. We're going to take a break in a moment. And in a moment, we'll be speaking to Nicholas Einrich, former civil servant who worked at USAID, under four administration's author of a new book, into the wood chipper.

a whistleblower's account of how the Trump administration shredded USAID before we do a couple of words from our sponsors. It was the weekend and I spent most of it in essentially two pieces of cozy earth clothing. I did too, actually. My joggers and I got a new set. I don't even know what to call it. I guess it's a jogger's top, but it's like a sweatshirt, but it has like a lounge feel material.

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author of Into the Woodchipper, A Whistleblower's Account of how the Trump administration shredded USAID. We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland, on the majority report. Want to welcome to the program, Nicholas Einrich. Former civil servant worked at USAID under four administrations, starting with Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump again, and author of Into the Woodchipper, a whistleblower's account of how the Trump administration shredded the USAID.

Nicholas, welcome to the program. I really enjoyed your book. It was like a memoir, but also sort of like a but also a policy book in many ways. And like a sort of a, it's rare that we get to see sort of the operations of these things. And in this, the,

in this case, it's a very specific agency, but this is going to be the story, I think, of our entire government, maybe not our entire, but a vast majority of all these important agencies and get a sense of like

the institutional degradation, that has taken place over just two years now, not even two years, and what it's going to take to rebuild. So welcome to the program. Why don't we just start with what the USAID, a $40 billion budget, I believe it is, or was. What did it do? Yeah, so USAID was the agency and the federal government that delivered for the, you know, foreign aid and international development to countries around the world, very successful

on about 40 billion, which was less than 1% of the federal budget, saved 92 million lives over just the last 20 years alone. But important to recognize that it was not a charity. It also did a lot of things to keep Americans safer, especially in global health where I worked. I think since the COVID pandemic, I think we all know that, in, it's a lot of, you know, it's infectious diseases abroad do not necessarily stay overseas. And we prevented, we helped countries prevent and detect infectious diseases before they could come to our borders. And we built

partnerships that, you know, help the United States and built goodwill and on the foundation of American generosity over the course of about six decades that created an international framework that supported the United States success over that time. I mean, it was created under the Kennedy administration, along with things like the Peace Corps, this was a way to project or in many respects like American influence, if not power, but soft power. And to do so by making friends. I mean, like we, you know, we like essentially to help people. And it was, I mean, aside from like you say, a lot of this had implications for American health too, because particularly, you know, less so maybe in 1960, but certainly by the time you get to 2020,

we saw quite quickly how something that starts all the way around the world can impact this country. It was meant to sort of be, in many respects, good PR, aside from sort of like it's a good thing to help people. It was good PR for the U.S. give us a sense of like the various silos because i you know i've i've had a conversation of the people who are very skeptical about uh us aid uh both because i would imagine they they perceive it as a slush one for the cia which frankly i mean you i'd love you to address that i think probably a lot of our agencies are um including a lot of our uh you know defense contractors but also a mechanism in which to project U.S. corporate agriculture power.

So give us a sense of what the breakdown of like how the budget is dispersed and those two critiques, if you would. Sure, sure. I mean, so we worked in several development sectors. Global health was probably the biggest at about $8 billion a year that U.S.A. was supporting. Humanitarian assistance is probably the next largest. But we also worked in other sectors like food security and education and democracy and human rights and agriculture.

But yes, to address your point, I think that's exactly right. It's not just a charity. It's meant to help America and lead through soft power. And I think it was General Mattis, actually, who said that if you don't fully fund the development budget, then you need to buy me more bullets because USAID and the work that we did in development and the partnerships that we built was basically the most efficient and effective way to keep America in a leadership role around the world since Kennedy set it up in 1961. It's not a front for the CIA and as some of the conspiracy theorists on the far right wing were able to convince

to convince Elon Musk and part of why he ripped it down just because the name, A, is an acronym, and the A stands for agency. It's agency for international development and not CIA. But, you know, we did always have to deal with conspiracy theories. I was very surprised, and obviously to a disastrous extent, by how much the administration picked up on those conspiracy theories and then without learning what the agency actually did tore it down before even trying to figure that out. Yeah, I want to get into those specifics. But let's just in general, I want to talk a little bit about like what the agency, because I think people need to understand the stakes here of exactly what was destroyed. Again, you said $40 billion. That's not, it's, to say

it's less than 1% of the budget, I think sort of like overestimates how big it was. I mean, Our defense budget this year is something like $950 billion. So $40 billion is like a rounding error here. And so let's just talk about, I want to talk about the Sudan in particular, what the U.S. aid was doing in Sudan and is now not doing in Sudan. And then I also want to talk about PEPFAR. Great. Yeah, so in Sudan, maybe I can start there. That was a country where we were largely providing humanitarian aid and support. In the global health field that meant providing emergency food

assistance and emergency medical assistance, which honestly, when the agency was shut down in the spring of last year, these were where we started to see the first anecdotal examples of people losing their lives due to the cuts. It was because and just absolutely atrocious stories of families walking all day to the clinic with the USAID logo on the side only to find it closed and then having to go home and decide which of their children to feed because they were not able to get food or pregnant women who were not able to get where we're having emergency childbirth issues. We're not able to take the emergency ambulance that they had arranged because they were shuttered overnight and were, unable to access emergency care when they needed it. So those were kind of like the first emergency cases that we started to hear rolling in in about February of 2025. And yeah, just to put it in scope, right?

Maybe less than 1% is kind of a hard way for people to factor. But think about the, you know, what's been happening with some of the wars that we're currently engaged in or other numbers where you're seeing people die. Just imagine that so far to date from the cuts to USAID already 750,000 people have died. And estimates are that about 14 million will die within the next five years alone due to those cuts. These are unnecessary deaths. So in the long run, when you think of when the dust settles on the Trump administration, this is going to be his legacy, is tearing down an agency that has one of the largest policy implications of any of the foreign policy actions that he's taken. and even though it was such a small amount of money.

So it's basically, you know, a week and a half of what we've done in Iran at this point, just in terms of expense. And how do we know about those deaths? Well, I mean, it's mostly due to the incredible work of journalists who have been following the case of what's been happening with the cuts and tracking down what the implications are for those. Most of the projections are based on modeling from disease experts and other sorts of technical projections

because the problem is that the State Department is refusing to release the data, which is required by Congress for them to provide. But basically, since the cuts have been in place, we don't actually know the real numbers. What we're looking at is estimates, because the State Department is sitting on the data of what the actual impacts are. So, I mean, for me, that's one of the first things is that we need to do is have Congress demand that the congressionally required data be released so that we can actually see what the true impacts actually are.

All right. Let's go through the sort of just walk through the timeline a little bit because you guys at USAID were looking at project. project 2025 in the wake of Trump's win, maybe even before that, in 2024, and we're nervous. Tell us like what you were anticipating, what you guys were doing at that time. And then we'll go up to Doge, which was sort of like boxed out, Russ, vote briefly. to obviously like a horrible outcome, but maybe a similar outcome. Yeah, I mean, after the election, you know, anytime there's election, the first thing we start to do within the civil service is try to learn everything we can about what the incoming administration is planning for USAID.

And so, you know, that meant reading Project 2025. That meant trying to think about who the political appointees might be that are going to come in to leave the agency and what they're, what their plans might be. And I was a little bit, a little bit nervous, to be honest with you. And that was mostly, didn't have much to do with the agency itself. It had to do with the incoming administration's general opinion of the civil servants and career officials that were federal employees in the first place, which was very negative. I mean, you had Russ vote saying that he was going to try to try to traumatize the civil servants and turn us into the villains and make us not even want to come to work. That was what I was scared of. But what I wasn't scared of, but what I wasn't

scared of was the agency shutting down because we had a long history of bipartisan support for our programs, including under the previous Trump administration. And we did expect some shifts. You know, we were probably going to be moving away from some of our family planning work. We were probably going to be moving away from partnerships with the World Health Organization that never dawned on me that they would come in and pull the rug out on, you know, these promises that we had made to countries around the world. Rubio was a big supporter of USA. And so that you thought would provide some respite, but no.

Right. I mean, Rubio was one of the biggest supporters on Capitol Hill of USAID. I mean, he is a long history of touting the agency and its praises, even saying things like, you know, if you ever have a chance, if you're a critic of USA, just go to Africa and see the people whose lives and whose children's lives have been saved by our programs there. and it's going to be very hard. I think he said it's going to be very hard to radicalize

of people whose children's lives have been saved by American drugs. And so I think one of the saddest things about all of this is the person who was in charge of this to the extent that he was, Marco Rubio, was absolutely a huge support. He knew what we were giving up.

Can you take us through then what it was like to have these Doge people kind of storm your offices? in many ways and like what the early signs were for you that this is going to be something entirely different than what we anticipated. Yeah, I mean, it was really, to be honest, quite infuriating. I mean, to the point at the initial start of the segment talking about I did have to, the book does have to go through operations.

And I think it's important to do that because this is what happens when an agency is hollowed out of its expertise and is replaced by a group of completely uninformed and unqualified, you know, doge bros, tech bros, who really don't, not only don't understand anything about how international development or global health works, but really don't even understand how the government works, terrible managers, you know, no experience with working with projects or people. And so when things start to go wrong, all they could really do was smack the table and, and make things worse, honestly, and yell at each other. And so I did my best to explain and to warn them of what the impacts of these cuts were going to be,

but it truly fell on deaf ears. I mean, they basically would, when I first briefed them on what we did in global health, for example, they looked at me like they were totally shocked and said that when they thought of what USA did in global health, they just assumed it was just abortions. they just thought that the USAID just provided abortions that was it right and we don't do first of all we don't do that that there's there's statutory requirements that prohibit the the promoting or provision of abortions under with any USAID funds that we've provided zero abortions although that is a conspiracy theory of the far right but but but to think that that's all we did even if you thought that we did that at all which we don't and have no idea of what we do to save 26 million lives in from from HIV or you know the 10 million people who are who are diagnosed with with tuberculosis each year and just have no idea what we do in a global

immunization campaign to save babies all over the world it was just preposterous and and so these were the people that that were in charge of tearing down our programs they weren't doing it because they didn't know because they thought that it was like an inefficient project like they said or that or because they were trying to realign foreign aid with the president's agenda. They were doing it to satisfy the ego of the world's richest man and, and they really didn't care what it was that we did. Give me a sense of like what, you know, the type of people that you were working with and just yourself in terms of like what kind of expertise, how long people had been in this, just so we get

a sense of like, you know, this is not, and people should understand. thin. These are not a bunch of political appointees. You had been there for 10 years. Where were you in terms of like age and experience? Give me like a sense as we look across your office. Who are the types of people that we're going to see? Yeah. I mean, so they basically fell into two categories, I would say, in terms of the political appointees and Doge. It fell into either the cruel or I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about Doge. I'm talking about your fellow. I went, want to get to Doge in a minute. But I'm talking about, like, the people in your office, because I think people have this

understanding of, like, government, you know, they're all bureaucrats. They don't care. I mean, like, my experience has been the people who go into the line of work that you do, um, uh, do so because of a deep, deep, um, sense of, of, of caring about, I mean, you know, the EPA environment or, um, you know, uh, food. safety or people's health. I mean, that like this is not a business that you go into, you know, a business that you're going into. This is like a calling. Yeah. I have never worked with such a renowned group of experts. I mean, these were the doctors, epidemiologists, public health

specialists that were the best in the world. And they came from all over the world. And as you say, They saw USAID as an opportunity to contribute to saving lives and making the world a healthier and safer place on a scale that we just couldn't do. There was no other organization or space where you could have such an incredible impact. So people gave up huge salaries. People gave up, you know, practicing medicine to people worked up, gave up working in, you know, high paid firms to come and have the greatest impact at the doubt they could. I've never worked with such an incredible group of experts. So, you know, again, that's what made it so infuriating to see them all kicked out the door.

That's what's so, like, I can only imagine have these guys come in, never mind their like youth and their arrogance, but also the ignorance. But you were about to describe Doge as or, and these folks is having like two potential qualities. Right. So there were those who were cruel. and there were those who were buffoons. It's kind of the way I describe it.

And the cruel ones were the people who had come in with an ashtergrine. And these are the people who had been veterans of the first Trump administration. Excuse me for one second. I'm sorry. We've got a technical problem. What's going on? Quick break. We're going to take a quick break.

We'll fix this and we'll come back and let you explain the sort of malevolve. And beffoon distinction between these two types of Doge people. We are back, Sam Cedar, Emma Viglin. We're talking to Nicholas Einrich. And Nicholas, you were saying before a little technical glitch there that there are two types of people who came in with Doge. Those who had an axe to grind and those who were just buffoons, walk us through that.

Because the ones who had an axe to grind, how much of there was like just purely ideological? Actually, it was kind of a, what I saw was a deep-seated hatred for the career officials. So, for example, my boss, a guy named Mark Lloyd, came in and was just with glee excited to get rid of the staff at the agency. And when I asked him why, like what his problem was with the career officials, he told me he had been at USAID previously in the last Trump administration. and he had been treated terribly by the staff.

They had leaked a bunch of stuff about him to the press, and they had ultimately killed his dog. And so these were kind of like the people that I was working with. They actually thought that the career staff were pet murderers. And so I knew I was going to have trouble getting through to them. I don't understand what that means. He thought that people who worked at USAID had poisoned his dog. Was it Kristinellum what he was thinking of or what?

You know, I did not, I did not pry. I just kind of like said, oh my, and didn't ask a follow-up question. So I don't know how the dog was purportedly killed. All I know is that USA staff don't kill people's dogs. The point is that he... Oh, okay. I just wanted to thank you for clarifying. I can say that with a high degree of confidence.

And it's really like, but the point is that, you know, he told me he came in with a list of staff that he was excited to get rid of. So that's sort of just to give you a sense of the people on the cruel side. On the buffoon side, this is primarily where the tech bros fit into the equation. And what they did was just move as quickly as they could to tear down as much as they could. But it came out in just absolutely ridiculous ways. So for example, when they started terminating our contracts, they did it by just doing a keyword search of what the different contracts were by their title, which is like an absolutely horrendous way to figure out whether our contracts are like essential or not. And what they ended up terminating, for example, was one of the contracts provided potable water to American staff in South Sudan.

So as soon as their contract was terminated, they had to end up starting to ration drinking water because they didn't know if it could be undone. Another contract that they terminated was for the system that manages the termination of contracts. So they ended up terminating the contract that they needed to terminate contracts. And I mean, it was just, it was just... Okay, we got to slow down on this so the people can fully understand this. So they decided on keywords. Were you privy to what the keywords were? They were looking for it.

So in terms of the global health agreements, they were looking for the term life-saving assistance. And so unfortunately, you know, the contracts we titled them, these are titled by Wong bureaucrats who make lots of silly acronyms for our projects. Because we never had any idea that someone would come in and just by looking at the contract names without asking us would eliminate those contracts entirely. So we were up against an impossible task by now knowing that which contracts would be saved would be done exclusively by what their names were. Well, first off, like the idea of just canceling contracts,

by choosing keywords and not even reading the contract, having any idea of what it is just by is just nuts. Like I can't even imagine any enterprise ever doing that. I just, like it almost just, I just can't even imagine anybody doing that. But to use life-saving assistance as the keywords, that seems completely deranged. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I describe the Doge, as basically like children playing in a cardboard spaceship, just pressing buttons and not really caring what happened. I think the only people who would, without any understanding of what they were doing, terminate contracts that were needed to save millions of lives around the world are people who just don't care and or who have no understanding of, you know, what it was that they were messing with. Or they do, right? I mean, I mean, like Elon Musk is a basically, eugenesis in many ways in the way that he speaks about the rest of the world. Like, I mean, I'm just trying to take it a step further and consider,

did they know that this is what they were doing? I mean, they pretend that they care about abortions and lives being saved in their view on that front via USAID, but they're more than happy to kill thousands of people with just the drop of a hat. Well, certainly Elon Musk knew enough of what the, damage was to lie about it publicly. So there were multiple occasions where he stood at the White House and told the American public, for example, that Ebola prevention activities were, had restarted after they had stopped, which was just simply not true. It was the same day that that was

happening. His Doge team was terminating the contracts that we needed to, for example, screen passengers and airports to make sure that people with symptoms of Ebola didn't get on international flights potentially onwards to the U.S. or, you know, contracts that we needed to move personal protective equipment into Uganda to help to deal with an outbreak and keep health care workers safe. So he, I mean, it wasn't that he just didn't know, like, what we did. He was actually lying about it publicly. This was what kind of ultimately convinced me that I needed to speak up from inside to let the public know what was actually happening. Yeah, talk about that. that dilemma that I think you had particularly not just you, but your colleagues had when they

first sort of like started coming in when you anticipated this and then, you know, at what point you sort of, that dilemma became not a dilemma anymore, became just sort of like the only option for you. Because I'm fascinated by the decision making that happens when, and I imagine it happens throughout our government on some level in this instance like, do I stay and mitigate the damage, or am I endorsing this in some way, or am I facilitating the damage? Talk about that dilemma and that calculation. Yeah, I think that's exactly the dilemma that we face. As civil servants, our job, of course, is to administer the policy of the president. And as long as that's legal and not causing massive destruction, you know, that's what I signed up for and that's what I always do.

So I'm not an activist and I'm not an advocate. And so it was a hard decision to make. And so at first, when I saw that Secretary of Rubio had allowed this waiver from the freeze on foreign aid to allow us to continue life-saving work, I dove in and so did my colleagues. We decided, hey, if there's anything we can do to restart these programs, this is what we're here for. I don't care if everything else is falling apart. If there's anything we can save, we do it. But as it became clear over the course of a few weeks that they were going to stop us at every turn, they had actually no intention of letting us actually implement life-saving programs, that was when I realized that all we were doing by staying there was staying silent. And as it was,

again, as lies were being spread publicly, I decided that it was like I wasn't able to, I wasn't going to be able to push back from within the government. And at some point, I crossed the line into I was being a complicit. a part of the problem. And at that point, and several of my colleagues decided that we needed to write a series of memos that described everything we had done to try to restart our programs, how we'd been stopped at every turn by Doge and the administration, and what the actual impact of those cuts and those decisions were going to be on the lives of millions around the world. And tell us how you disseminated those and what the fallout was.

Yeah, so I compiled those memos and sent them out widely and publicly. And that same day, I was placed on administrative leave by the Trump administration. And that was unfortunately the end of my career. Give us the sense of how much savings. I mean, I know that the budget annually is $40 billion. I don't know where that. money goes until Congress reappropriates it theoretically. Like, I mean, it could be just sitting in an account in Treasury, right?

Like labeled USAID or whatever the specific programs are. Do you have a sense of, I mean, ostensibly, this is what it was about. It was about saving money. It really seems more about, like you say, either resent and like a revenge tour for some people or just sort of a complete disregard for the functioning of government and it almost like an ideological ignorance that none of this is me it's like a nealism yeah i mean there were no savings let me just put that up front i mean to calculate what they were considering savings you have to start with the premise that there was zero value in the first place in any of our

program. So if it was zero, then everything that they saved would be savings. However, it turns out that the way, they didn't know how to actually save things. In fact, the damage that they did by breaking our payment system, for example, alone, ended up racking up interest at levels that we had actually never seen before, so much that it broke our treasury account. And we were not able to actually make payments even to the few organizations that actually had the ear of our leadership and they were going to get a little bit of money. Even those payments were not able to be made. And we racked of interest into the billions. And the latest estimate that are coming from inside the State Department, well, actually from inside Russ Votes team at the Office of Management and Budget, are that it's going to cost $19 billion just for administrative closeout of the agency. And that's not including the lawsuits that are going to be coming from all the contractors that had the rug pulled out from under them. So even if there was no value from our programs, the way that they are, which of course there was, the financial hole that they've dug for themselves is as much, I mean, the number of lives that we could have saved for that money is just, it's really

painful to even think about. And of course, all the CIA agents, where did they end up going? Yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen them. I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself because, I mean, this is, you know, this is the world that we, we live and when we hear people talk about the nefarious parts of USAID, as if there was something uniquely nefarious, whereas I think there was arguably something, I'm sure there are some

other agencies, but uniquely associated with saving people's lives around the country in a way that we have no other agency who was tasks so, I mean, just even in sheer dollars with such a, with that as a primary function of their agency? Right. I think that's right. Again, I believe that what we will have lost from USAID will, it won't be fully quantifiable for years to come, but when it finally is, I think that it's really going to be, one of the key parts of the Trump administration's legacy in the most negative way possible.

Will you speak to, I mean, I've spoken to after the first Trump administration, I spoke to people from like the DOJ and this is that about like their experience. I had people who had gone from the Clinton DOJ to the Bush DOJ to then to the Obama DOJ. and they spoke about like what it takes to rebuild these agencies. And every agency is different, of course, but there's a similar dynamic. You had people who were working at USAD AID who were there for 10 years. They were there for 20 years, 25 years, five years. There's a certain institutional memory.

There's a certain sort of like know-how. And also there's a pipeline of people who suddenly made. different career choices in college or in graduate programs because they're like there's nothing there for me to go into in terms of like public health in this instance can you speak to to that notion like what you anticipate it's going to take is it possible even to rebuild this um like if if it was to restart tomorrow never mind in two and a half years um what would it take and we should also say that like there's no limited amount of bandwidth for an administration administration and destroying these things are much easier than they are rebuilding them.

And who knows what the priority will be for any administration going forward? Do you rebuild the IRS first? Do you rebuild the DOJ? Do you rebuild the FDA, the Labor Department? I mean, on and on and on. So just give us your sense of that. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that you mentioned that really has hit home for me is the recruitment, the pipeline of recruitment of young,

motivated people, that the government over the last 50 years has tried to target those people to get them to commit to public service and go into the government, even though there might be financial incentives to do other things. I came into the government through the Presidential Management Fellow Program, which is one of those recruitment tools that they use. And it's one of them that they abolished back in January 2025 to just cut out that pipeline of ambitious, smart, and talent. talented young people who might get in the government.

That one I felt particularly painful. Look, I do think that USA can and should be rebuilt. As you say, it's much more difficult to rebuild than it was for Doge to tear it apart. But I think that it's not, like, we're going to find that we have no choice but to rebuild it. Replacing the expertise, I think, will actually not be the hardest part. We, you know, there's a ton of extremely talented and, experts in the international development and global health field right now that would love to come back if they got the opportunity. I think the real challenge is the trust that we've broken with countries and and and governments overseas where we all of a sudden from having these decades-long partnerships that were built on the idea of American generosity and goodwill.

and then an administration can come in and shred them with no warning and no, like, even small period of transition to let these governments pick up the slack and help take care of their own people, just, you know, forcing people into a catastrophic situation. That rebuilding that trust is what's going to take decades, even though it only took weeks to tear down. I mean, it would be, I mean, in the alternate world, if the United States, United States felt like, okay, we have to close this. You would give these governments six, 12 months to say, find funding somewhere else. See, maybe Europe can pick it up so that there can be a seamless transition for these clinics that exist there or whatever it is. But frankly,

I mean, and this cuts across all of our foreign relations, you'd have to be insane at this point to look at the United States based upon its actions over the past 10 years and say this is a rely like we could count on this yeah you wouldn't do it as an individual as an individual if somebody treated you this way like you would be like i'm out of here i i you know uh once bitten twice shy and this is like a bit in multiple times um what would you have done like you talk about getting into that fellowship uh program like what's the alternate route for someone with your sort of like background and inclination maybe you go to NGOs or maybe you end up in in the corporate world, like, what are we losing in terms of, like, the next generation?

Yeah, I mean, I'm actually a lawyer, so my options were to work for a firm, and I frankly gave up the opportunity to make quite a bit of money, because I saw this as the way that I could make the most impact. So I think that that's true. Again, like many of the people in the Global Health Bureau were medical doctors, which again are giving up quite lucrative careers in private practice to commit themselves to public service and to be able to make sure that their work is not just affecting their individual patient, but on a mass scale was able to improve the lives of millions to increase global life expectancy by nearly a decade over the course of a few years is just, you know, an impact that you could have there, that it was worth, you know,

you know, sacrificing potentially more lucrative careers. And so, yeah, all those people need to go. Nobody did it for the paycheck, but that doesn't mean people don't have children that they need to feed. Of course. And so people now are going to have to go find other things and are finding other things. And it is sad that they're not committed to, that they're not able to pursue the public service that they had committed their careers to. All right. One final question.

and this is sort of like, you know, from our own sort of myopic element, but I think it shows like sort of the implications of it. So much of this, it seems to me, came from, and I think you mentioned this in the book briefly, Rogan, Joe Rogan, having Mike Benz, a former State Department official on that spew all of these conspiracy theories about U.S. aid. and Elon Musk probably sitting in the green room at the mothership or something like this in Austin watching this and going like this is top of the list. I got to get rid of like, you know, the born identity operating out of USAID. Yep, yep. You know, I don't know Elon Musk at all.

The only way that I can evaluate whether he's paying attention to something is whether he's tweeting about it. And before he heard Mike Ben's on the Joe Rogan show, he had never once tweeted about USAID. And afterwards, it kind of became his public enemy number one with like really weird late night stints of, you know, 40 or 50 tweets going off between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock in the morning, some of these evenings just talking about how USAID is evil and we're a ball of worms and were, you know, Marxist, like, anti-American, you know, it's just kind of like the full litany. And I, you know, there's no way to, to, like, combat what's coming out of Elon Musk with the, with his mouthpiece.

But it did, you know, at that time, it really scared staff. Like, they weren't sure if they, if it was safe to go into the office when he was doing that, of whether that was going to convince some crazy person who's listening to him to, like, go take care of those people. And, yeah, I mean, and so basically that's why we lost all this is because Musk found this to be kind of his public enemy. And then he started to get a little bit of pushback when his first attempt at utilizing Doge when, you know, for example, his Doge teams were not allowed to access secure facilities that they didn't have security clearance for or when they, tried to break into email systems that they weren't allowed to go into. He felt that this was challenging whether he was going to be able to do what he wanted to with Doge. And that's when he sort of dug in his heels and kind of decided, look, I can destroy this because I say so.

And, you know, he was able to do it, unfortunately. When do you make your appearance on the Joe Rogan show to, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, I'm obviously saying this, you know, sarcastic. But it seems to me like this is a multi-million dollar operation, $100 million that Spotify paid to have this guy on their network, essentially, and a huge corporate be a myth. And you'd think if it's about truth-telling or trying to get to the truth, that they might have somebody on who knows what they're talking about, to at the very least have a debate or to,

just provide other information, but I assume that they have not invited you on. No, they have not invited me on, but I'll tell you this. I heard about that in real time because one of my Trump-supporting friends listened to that podcast and send it to me. And he was like, this is ridiculous, but, you know, it's at least worth a listen. And that was kind of the context that my Trump-supporting friend sent it to me. This guy seems like a conspiracy theory quack. and when I listen to it, that's exactly what I thought.

And so, yeah, I would love to get the chance to speak to this, to speak about this with Joe Rogan or anybody else. But, you know, thank you for letting me come and speak about it on your platform because I do think that it shouldn't be the voices of people who really have no idea what they're talking about that get amplified. And it should be, you know, people who do have the expertise and experience to just, like, say what the agency actually does. I wish they had known what the agency actually did.

Nicholas, Anrich, I really appreciate you the book you've written. It's really important because I think people need to understand what our government does and what has been done to our government and those functions. There's going to have to be a lot of rebuilding, and people are going to have to understand what has been destroyed and how if that's going to happen. The book is Into the Woodchipper, Whistleblower's account of how the Trump administration shredded a U.S. aid We'll put a link to that in our podcast and YouTube descriptions in at majority.fm. Thanks so much for coming on.

Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for the conversation. All right, folks. We're going to take a quick break and head to the fun half in a moment. Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member at Join the Majority Report.com. When you do, now link at the free show, free of commercials, but you also get the fun half and you get to IAM us on the fun half.

and you know we'll probably we know we'll clip this uh thing but if you know you're on twitch or um any other platform for that matter uh i think youtube you can clip uh too in certain instances what you certainly could figure it out um send this to jo rogan not the entire thing i can't imagine he'll watch the entire thing but just the last like minute of of that so that maybe he'll have this guy on uh to balance out what he's done now it's too late to fix it, but down the road. But Rogan seems, you know, looking desperately to figure out how to reposition himself, maybe providing like an ounce of reality to the absolute bat crap, destructive.

I mean, look, I'm all for, I was in the fiction business for 15, 20 years before I did this. I'm all for fiction and fun stories. But when it literally costs the lives of tens of thousands, people, maybe millions down the road. Never mind the sort of like knock on implications for somebody who is, you know, supposedly such a nationalist. I mean, just incredible. Let's see. Also, just coffee.com. Fairtree coffee. Sorry, I lost my try, I thought. Use the coupon. Code majority at Just Coffee, folks. You get 10% off and you can buy the majority report

Blunt. Yes. Matt, what's happening on Leverick? Yeah, Left Reckon there is a Sunday show, Patreon.com, so it's Left Reckoning. We'll have Emma Vigland on Left Reckoning tomorrow at... Whoa! She's everywhere.

I know. I know. I know. I'll forget what we're talking about. We'll figure it out. Oh, the movie. I mean, we'll probably talk about politics and stuff like that, but touch on. you were never really here a movie with Walking Phoenix like 15 years ago

yeah wow I wouldn't want my guest to disparage you mad at me about that the topic I mean it's like probably eight eight okay no I'm excited about it I'm just saying that's why we're expanding our topics beyond that

just that one's probably can't go 45 minutes on a movie that came out in the first Trump term I didn't need to be rude thanks for the invite for this stale topic that you have me talking about. Just a light tease. Speaking of which.

That's the little new for you, Sam. What's that? No, I haven't caught. I'm 10 years before I catch up on that. I'm sorry. I felt bad after that. Anything, anything that was released after 2000,

I've still got like five or 10 years before I get to. But also, I should say, I was on the reaction podcast. With Mike from PA. He's got a new podcast out there. And we were talking for, like an hour and 10 minutes about Tim Poole.

And I was going down memory lane of all the things. And I will also say, I think I actually showed on my phone a picture of the the poker table. A fight poster? Oh, I didn't show the fight poster. I should have. I got to see if I,

I definitely have a picture of that, right? I showed everybody. You showed me a picture. Yeah. Okay. But I did show a picture of the poker with the boyish poker table and we mocked like the folding chairs that were there which was actually

I realized that afterwards like that was odd I wonder if he would like roll his comfortable chair in there and it was a strategy you get everybody else I think you're overestimating

I know that would involve like pre-planning I think it's just that the poker table is probably not used that much so they've got some folding chairs here because guys come out let's play some poker sorry Tim I gotta get home

probably not some marathon West Virginia traffic. I bought a small briefcase from a sporting goods store in high school that had poker chips in it. Because me and my friends played poker like two times. I'm like, oh, I'm going to be playing poker all the time. Like barely ever plays it. Falls like that, too. So check that out.

Reaction podcast. You'll find it. I think I tweeted it out. sometime in the past 24 hours. See in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now.

But I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on for a second. The majority. Emma, welcome to the program.

Hey. Fun hat. Matt. Who? Fun hack. What is up, everyone? Fun hat. No, me, Key.

You did it. Fun hat. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Brandon. Fun hat. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint. Everyone, I'm just a random guy.

It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false. No, I'm sorry. Women's... Stop talking for a second. Let me finish. Where is this coming from? dude. But dude, you want to smoke this?

7.8? Yes. Yes? It's you. I think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm going to go to life. Libertarians. They're so stupid, though. Common sense says, of course.

Gobbled e gook. We fucking nailed him. So what's 79 plus 21? Challenge men. I'm positively quivering. I believe 96, I want to say. 857, 210, 35. 501.

One half. 3-8s. 9-11, for instance. $3,400, $1,900. $6.5,4, $3 trillion sold. It's a zero-sum game. Actually, you're making me think less. But let me say this.

Poop. You can call it satire, Sam goes to satire. On top of it all, my favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we've seen you. Folks, folks, obviously.

Yeah, sundown guns out. Don't know. But you should know. Don't like to entertain ideas anymore. I have a question. Who cares? Wow. I love it.

I do love that. Look, got to jump. I got to be quick. I get a jump. I'm a loser. Clock. We're already late. And the guy's being a dick.

So screw him. Sent to a gulaw? Outrage. Like, what is wrong with you? Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye-bye.