The Matan Show - Cliffe & Stuart Knecthle on Gay Marriage, Logan Paul Drama

Episode Date: December 22, 2024

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the podcast. For today's guest, we have Cliff and Stuart Koneckley. Welcome in. You guys can come in now and just sit there. And for the co-hosts, we have Mike, as usual. Welcome in, Mike, Mike. Nice to meet you. Good to see you.

Thanks for having me. Nice meeting you. So real quick, just please introduce yourselves, tell everybody a little bit about yourselves and all that. I'm Cliff Koneckle. I grew up here in Connecticut, and it's been a privilege for 44 years to speak on university campuses around the country, and I'm the proud father of Stuart. I'm the middle son and became a pastor with him in 2015, and then we started doing this together. He's been doing it since what? 1980, 1980 on the beaches with shorts hiked up to here illegal and probably 49 states. And, but I tried just to follow his lead. He's an incredible mentor. He's got incredible gifts

in this area and it's so needed right now in a more secularized country. And so we really try and hit it off. I think we really grew during COVID because of the challenges we've tried to make to free speech, to a lot of those kinds of categories that comes with liberalism. And by doing so, then we moved to the gospel, but that was really what, what lit us on fire. I think that the desire for some students to really shut down free speech. So that's kind of where we're at now. Awesome. So, I mean, in case, I'll just, I'll give like also another quick overview. There are Christians, of course. There are

like, he's a pastor or a priest. I'm not sure which one. Senior pastor, assistant pastor. Yeah. Okay. So they're those ones. And then they go to the college campuses, they debate. And then if you're wondering why the set looks a little bit different, it's actually because we came to Connecticut to interview with you guys.

We're actually in their homes currently in the back office, I believe. That's right. Okay, so I'll start asking the questions, and then I don't know if you want him to answer half of them or however you want to do it. You could just let him know and then answer it however you might like. You bet. Is it possible for God to make a mistake and accidentally send the wrong person to hell? No, it's absolutely not possible for God to make a mistake because God is all-knowing.

God is fair and just. God is loving and compassionate. But it's a very good question you ask because Abraham in the Old Testament in Genesis chapter 18 struggled with God. Are you going to judge the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if there are 50 righteous people? I mean, come on. You can't do that. And he worked his way all the way down to 10, and God said, No, if there are 20 righteous people, I will not judge it. If there are 15, I won't. And if there are 10, I won't.

It's interesting that Abraham didn't go 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. But when he hit the number 10, all of a sudden Abraham was convinced and secure. God is just. He's not going to rip anybody off. So it's not possible for him to make a mistake, but is it according to the Bible and the Old Testament, is it possible for him to play a joke maybe and then send the wrong person to hell

as a little game he's playing for himself or no? We don't get that anywhere in the Bible, especially in the New Testament. Luke chapter 16, you have the rich man in hell based off his own volition, his own desire to be there because he's worshiping his wealth. He does say that he is hot. There is some level of deterioration. He doesn't like it, and yet he never asks to get out.

So I don't think there's anywhere in Scripture where it seems like God messed up or that God is playing a dirty little trick. I think the closest you come is in Job when the devil is going back and forth with God. That's my favorite story from the Bible. Is it really? I like it a lot, yeah. I think that so it's not talked about, but it is hypothetically possible that he could do it as a little joke.

Well, if you think it's hypothetically possible to make a square circle, I would disagree. Okay. I don't think it's possible to make a square circle. And I don't think it's possible for a God who is totally good, who is holy, as the Torah, the Old Testament points out, to make a joke and accidentally or intentionally send anybody to hell because hell is separation from God. And God loves us. Couldn't you say that since he is the all-knowing that maybe it was the right decision because his joke was the good decision to make in that scenario?

Well, God has a sense of humor. There's no question about it, just like he made me. So he obviously has a sense of humor. Right. But, no, he doesn't play frivolous games with people's lives. He doesn't trivialize anybody. He doesn't play jokes that heavy. He keeps it to, like, a limit.

That don't denigrate people. Well, the Greek gods did. The pagan gods played those kind of jokes. Right? And so a lot of those were bred out of, for example, Zeus played that kind of joke. If you messed up, then the gods, exactly, the gods would condemn you. There was nothing in early Greek literature that showed a consistency of goodness and power matched with that goodness of the gods. It was only in the Bible that we started to see that.

And why do you think that in those, the Greek ones, you have like Kratos, the son of Zeus, he ends up getting killed by Kratos and, you know, it's like a whole family war. Kratos ends up destroying all of Greece. Why do you think about all that? Sounds like human beings. Sounds like gods were created in the image of human beings. And the Bible says the opposite is true. Human beings are created in the image of God.

Now, that image has been horribly defaced. Right. But that's one of the basic differences between the pagan religions and Judaism and Christianity, which insists God is this way and God has created us to reflect His character. So you're saying that the actual morals and the ethics is more so why you would want to become a Christian and not somebody who idolizes Zeus or Kratos or Loki or nothing like that? No, not at all. I would tell you, you could follow Oprah Winfrey. You could follow Eckhart Tolle.

You could follow Krishna. Anybody. They all teach great ethics in different kinds of ways. Yes, Jesus taught the Sermon on the Mount, which many different Harvard professors, specifically Robert Coles, said that all other ethical teachings are simply footnotes to the Sermon on the Mount. So yes, precise, incredible teachings, but no, we would say we're Christian because you come to Jesus Christ, you view him as a reliable character, spoke perfectly, lived perfectly, and then rose from the dead. That's why we would come to Christ. So you view the Greek stories and other religions like that, like the ones with the Vikings, as more as lessons in life and not directly as actual religion?

Mythology. Okay. It's not written as nonfiction, those stories. Yeah. The Gospels themselves are written as nonfiction. And do you think

it would be disrespectful for how the Marvel movies do it, where they do Thor as a fictional character? Or do you think that's not disrespectful? No, I think even Harry Potter, a lot of Christians would say don't read Harry Potter because of the bad dark magic in it. I would say even Harry Potter and Thor, all of those narratives, stories

and movies are backing up the Christian faith, the evidence of it, because there's always a dark character, a villain. There's always a good character. There's always sacrifice like Jesus Christ on the cross. And then there's always a desire for eternal life. And so all of these different narratives are pointing to the evidence for the Christian story. Okay, I see what you're saying. Let me ask another one. What do you think should be the punishment for members of the LGBTQ? And then on a separate note, should I be allowed to personally sue them individually? Well, I think that every member of the human race, be they LGBTQ or not, has innate value because we all are created in the image of God, in the likeness of God.

So to denigrate anybody because of some choice they make or because of some lifestyle they embrace is wrong. So no punishment? Well, I'm not the judge. God is the judge, and God will judge all of us. But should a judge, like legally, should they, if there's a guy who's committing gay acts, what do you think, should he be allowed to do it legally or no? That's a very difficult question, because the question is, in a democracy,

who's going to decide what the laws are? And obviously so far we've tried to say people, the majority, legislate. And they elect people and they legislate. So hopefully it's a reflection of the majority. So you believe in separation between church and state? Yes. Okay, awesome. How would somebody be judged according to Christianity if they had never heard of it?

And do you have any side hustles? I do not know how God will judge those who have never heard about Christ because Christ never addressed the issue. Oh, he never spoke about it? Nope, never did. Did he ever speak about, like, or not him, but do you have any, like, side hustles? Side what? Side hustles. What does that mean, side hustles?

Like, different ways to make money on the side, you know, like trading stocks or, you know, selling hot dogs. Oh, along with what we do? Yes, completely separate from your main job. Do you have any separate ways of making money? Oh, off of like social media? No, just anything. It could be whatever you want. No, no. No, we don't. Well, we're paid salaries by the church that we're pastors. Oh, no, like side hustles. Completely separate from your main job.

No, we don't have that. And for 44 years, I've heard from university students about all the hypocritical televangelists and ministers who tell people about God and then rip their cash off. And if you read the Gospels, you'll notice in John 2 how Jesus walked into the temple, took a whip of cords, and turned over the money changers' tables and drove them out. And he said, this is to be a house of prayer, not a house of making money. So you're against the guys who go on TV and are selling jewelry

to like old people and stuff like that. Yeah, I don't, I don't take kindly to that. There's a lot of that on social media, obviously. A lot of guys make fan accounts off of our stuff and you just go to the end of a video and they're selling jewelry based off of our stuff. Now I'm not a big fan of that either, but if it's going to a good cause and it's done legally, I don't have a huge issue. The bigger issue is this big politician who you know pretty well, I think. He said one of the main reasons

why he can't believe in Christianity is because of the pastors flying around in $94 million jets. See, I would think that that's actually... I probably can't reveal his name right now. But I think that's even more reason to believe in Christianity, to believe in Christ himself. Now, why do I say that? Because the Christians have such a nice plane.

No, no, no. I don't think you should be investing that level of money. Again, I'm not going to judge, but I'm just saying, Matan, I'm saying that Jesus talked about hypocrisy just as much as any other teaching. Right. And so he said there would be these religious hypocrites. So if I am buttering my bread with a knife, I could abuse that butter knife and stick it in you. Or I could use it for what it was made for.

And so Jesus says, you're a human created in the image of God. Live consistently with what I teach you. Giving away in order to gain a good life rather than I'm going to dump $94 million on myself. So he calls them out. Let me ask you this. So if I were to ever convert to Christianity, do you think that that would impose any restrictions on my side hustles like crypto scams or no? That's a good question. All right. When you put your faith in

Christ, you understand I'm going to heaven not because of my lifestyle, not because of my ethical behavior. I'm going to heaven because of what Christ did for me on the cross. That's grace. It's a generous gift that God offers us when we put our faith in Christ. But if that faith is genuine, it will be shown in not lying, not deceiving, not cheating. What if I understand that doing the crypto scams is technically wrong? I just wanted the money.

Well, that's sad. That's an example of greed. So that's not allowed? It's not encouraged at all. It's not called for. No, Christ calls us to be generous, not to be greedy. And you would say that what if, let's say I converted to Christianity, what if I'm still doing it, but the only people I'm scamming somehow I'm able to make sure it's just other Jewish people and Buddhists. Don't treat Jews and Buddhists that way.

Treat Jews and Buddhists with integrity, with honesty, that human beings create an image of God. I understand. Between Logan Paul and George Jank jenko if you had to pick who would you choose to have eliminated neither we don't eliminate people as followers of christ we don't eliminate instead if someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to them the other also so jesus taught incredible compassion and jesus said you've heard that it was said love your neighbor and hate your enemies but i tell you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So eliminating people is not an option for a follower of Christ.

Canceling people is not an option. We hold people responsible for what they do and say, but we don't eliminate them. But if Logan Paul, for say, came to your house and he just started trying to fight everybody here, you wouldn't fight him back or nothing? Oh, I would seek to have him arrested. If anybody walks into my house and starts whooping up on my family, I'm not just going to stand there and say... But you wouldn't physically fight him back?

Oh, I would physically try and stop him. You'd restrain him? He's much stronger than I am, so I'd get whooped up big time, but... But that would be your attempt. You wouldn't, like, try to knock him out and then, you know, give him a few, like, extra necessary, like, punches when he's out. You would, like, if you knocked him out, per se, you would leave it there. Yes, correct.

It's like this policeman recently asked me, he said, is it okay under God's eyes for me to be a police officer in what I do to criminals? And I said, yes, you should be tackling a criminal who was just stolen from an old lady, and yet it's how you treat the criminal when he's in the back of your cop car, that's when your Christian witness comes out. That's the decision time. But if you're going to allow a criminal to mug or steal from an old lady and just get away with it without tackling him, no, that's not consistent with the Christian faith. Now, I understand. I was speaking to a police officer recently, but the experience was

different. He was telling me that if, like, I don't know how to say, I don't know what he would and wouldn't want me to say, but he was telling me that if I got 50% and he got 50%, then nobody has to know about it. Yeah, that's called bribing. That was his offer. Yeah, and that's sad. And there are corrupt cops, just as there are corrupt ministers, just as there are corrupt priests.

But remember, just because they're corrupt cops doesn't mean they're not a lot of honest good cops. And just because they're corrupt ministers and corrupt priests says nothing about Jesus. In fact, it says nothing about the good ministers. It says a lot about those corrupt ministers. Hey guys, sorry for the interruption. I have to let you know that today's episode is sponsored by PrizePeaks. PrizePeaks is the best way to get real money sports action. All you have to do is pick more or less on two or more players and you'll have a shot at over 100 times your cash. PrizePix also invented the flex play,

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1.5 touchdowns, Travis Kelsey for more than 59.5 receiving yards and Saquon Barkley for more than 79.5 rush yards. Download the PrizePeaks app today and use code MATAN to get $50 when you play your first $5 lineup. That's code MATAN to get $50 when you play your first $5 lineup. Thank you to PrizePeaks for sponsoring today's episode. PrizePeaks, run your game. The thing that bothers you a lot is probably the Christians and the preachers who use their faith as like a shield to do things that are wrong, but unlike the other people who aren't, they're trying to hide behind it.

Hypocrisy is lying about myself. It's pretending to be someone I am not. It's a game, and it's a very sad game myself it's pretending to be someone i am not it's a game and it's a very sad game because it moves us out of authenticity into playing mind games with people trying to paint an image of myself what about minecraft pardon minecraft what's minecraft video game i'm sorry you play it often right i have not played video games, so I'm not familiar. You've never played Minecraft? No, I never have.

I was gonna say, because the compound, like your house here, it looks very similar. It's like a horse. It's very similar. Yeah. But you don't play it. No, I don't. What's the draw with Minecraft? Why do people play it? I don't play too many video games, but it's, um... I imagine that if there's like a guy, you know, just I'll pick a random guy, just like a random Latino guy, you know, living in LA.

Maybe he might want to live on somewhere like this so he gets to live that out through Minecraft. And then personally, I don't play it, but I do not as much as like the crypto stuff, but I run a couple of like online servers where like little kids play the game with each other. And then if they want, they can take the credit card and, you know, invest some money into gambling or something like that. See, this is one of the reasons why we believe in God, because we believe those kinds of kids are seeking after a transcendent source through the video game. Because they're trying to escape reality, whether that be suffering or anything like it. And we have a draw to some type of transcendent source, the video game because they're trying to escape reality whether that be suffering or anything like it and we have a draw to some type of transcendent source no matter what that's why psychedelics are in play that's why in york city where you're going against psychedelic uh it's a tough question okay partly yes partly no but when it comes to in york city you're going to do next there's something called apocalyptic hookup culture which is i want some

type of connection to this transcendent source call call it God or something, that I'm trying to get through human beings by having sex with as many people as possible, but all these sociologists and psychologists are saying that's tremendously bad for people, just like those who are obsessed with Minecraft. So what are you trying to get at through these games and through these people

that is what we would consider connected beyond just this world and a transcendent source, wanting meaning, wanting purpose, wanting beauty, wanting love, that as an atheist, you can't get that because that's immaterial. I think I agree. I think that I would, I don't know what the percentages would be, but I would categorize it that probably some people playing a lot of video games

either do it because they have free time, they're just trying to relax, and then some of them also, I would agree, that they're playing it to kind of live a different life is somebody more likely to go to heaven if they win in gambling is someone more likely to go to heaven if they win at gambling yeah so if they go to vegas like mgm grand and they play the slot they play blackjack, are they more likely to make it to heaven if they get 21? Good question. No. Gambling is not good.

Why? Because gambling trivializes money. Gambling is basically saying money is cheap and I can play a silly game with it and maybe make more, maybe lose more. And God says no. Money is good. It's valuable because it represents the work that you've done or the work that somebody else has done.

So don't cheapen it by gambling. And then let me ask this. It's a little related to the last one. Does God decide who wins and loses in the casino? Because I personally, not in the U.S. because I'm 17, but in some other places I like playing blackjack. If I'm losing one night or I'm winning, is that decided by God or it's just random factors? Random factors. So he's not deciding each game individually.

Right. God did not decide what hairstyle you're going to have the barber cut and he didn't decide what hairstyle I was going to ask the barber to cut my hair. We do like your hair though. Oh, you like it? Yeah, it's nice hair. Very cool. But God could also play off of pure motives

or malevolent motives so i i think if you're doing blackjack and you have pure motives to give money away by winning god could have some type of hand in that he could try to make me win in that sense yes but if you're sinning and a lot of unfortunately a lot of blackjack and the motives behind it is oftentimes sinning and malevolent, then I think God could even have a level of punishment within it. And make me lose. Make you lose? That would be a lot of determinism and predestination. I don't know about make you lose.

Do you think that could be a good case for a lawsuit against the casino or no? Now we're getting very practical in the minutia. Very interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. Like, if I could prove that to them, could I prove that they shouldn't be allowed to play the gambling because it's off-base, it's unfair, it's not up to them or me or up to random chance either?

If you prove that God is on your side and not on somebody else's side? Or no, I prove he's on their side. He's on their side? Well, that would be because I'm suing the MGM Grand or something like that. Well, I don't think you could ever prove God, just like the Russian astronauts couldn't prove God when they went to outer space and said he wasn't there. What if I find a funny judge and I get a Jewish lawyer? Then maybe.

Then I might have it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might have something there. And if you were to hire a lawyer for any lawsuits, would he be Jewish? No. No? No.

He would not be? I don't care whether he's Jewish or Gentile. Oh, that would be completely separate. Irrelevant. Okay. Because there's a lot. I'm sure that where you guys live so close to New York, there's a lot of the Jewish. Yes, a lot of Jews.

But what frustrates me is how much anti-Semitism there is in the name of Christianity. Yeah. Remember, I worship a Jew. So anti-Semitism is a basic contradiction of who I worship, which is Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish man. And the reason why Jews are so wealthy in New York City, and there's so many of them, is because they understand the wisdom in life insurance. I agree. I think that

the issue on why maybe there's anti-Semitism because I'm Jewish, but I think the issue is that some Jewish people believe they're better than others because they're Jewish. Not most of them. I think that maybe it's like 5-10%, but they're really outspoken. The silent majority is the ones who don't believe that, like me. And the ones that are really loud, you know,

are kind of the ones who portray, you know what I mean? Would you agree with that? Most of the Hasidic Jews, for example, that we meet are some of the nicest people we imagine. Those are the guys with the curly hairs? The curls, yeah, exactly. Good amount of them around here. They own, like, the entertainment.. Good amount of them around here. They own the entertainment.

Yes, they've got some power. If you had to get rid of any race, which would you pick? None. You wouldn't pick anyone? No way. All human beings are equally valuable because they're all created in the image of God. But if you move God out of the picture, if you don't believe in God, then you can pick one and say this race is inferior because it's all relative. So if you're not religious, it's okay to be racist, you're saying?

No. Because there's nothing stopping you? It's not okay. But if you're going to be intellectually consistent, you're going to have to acknowledge racism is not wrong. Murder is not wrong. It just is. And whatever is, is. I'm not saying it's okay ethically. I'm saying that to that person, there's nothing stopping them from doing it. Well, hopefully their conscience is working. Every atheist has a conscience. Every agnostic has a conscience. So hopefully their consciences are working and they understand from their conscience and their rational mind that

racism and murder are wrong. And Alan Dershowitz, O.J. Simpson's lawyer, he's not a Christian. He might be a Jew, actually. The last name sounds like a Jew. Yeah, so he himself, as a Jew, said it was the Christian worldview only that actually, if you're consistent within it, restrains you from doing immoral acts. Because everything else, if you take it from an atheistic perspective, for example, how do you prove human rights?

Why should you live for human rights? There's no big reason. You can't prove it scientifically. So if there is no God, yes, you could say, I'm a nice person, so I'm going to sacrifice for the poor over in Africa. But there's no proof to why you should do that, for example. But for a Christian,

there is moral obligation from a transcendent source. So you should do this. You ought not to do this. And for a Jew, they would agree. So Muslims, Jews, and Christians all agree on moral obligation. Because they get the morality from a transcendent source. Atheists, agnostics, Hindus, all would say no if they're consistent. And what do you think about his client, OJ?

What do you think about OJ? OJ? He's probably more your time than ours. Yeah. Even though he's much older than me. You're absolutely right. I am a little bit older than you. You're a young buck.

I like that. I don't know too much about him. You think he was a good fellow? I don't know enough about him. And one of the things that Jesus says is, Judge not lest you be judged. So I'm sorry. I can't make a statement about O.J.

because I just don't know the man. If you met him, if he was still alive, I recently learned a couple months ago that he no longer was, but if you were to somehow have met him, would you have shook his hand or would you have not done it? Well, I try to shake everybody's hand. I used to work in a prison and would shake murderers' hands and racist hands.

No, as followers of Christ, we respect all people and we're called to love our enemies. So you would shake hands with anybody no matter how they looked, where they're from, what color? I sure hope so. Okay. You'd shake O.J.'s hand if he had the glove on even? Yeah, even if he had the glove on. So even if it still had blood on it before he put it in the washing machine? I'd probably ask him.

It's got dark. I'd ask him, where'd the blood come from, O.J.? What if he told you? He said, I killed my wife. Well, I would say, O.J., I think it's time for you and me to have a deep conversation. Would you report him to the police? Maybe we should go talk to the police. What would you do?

I'm trying to think how I would go. What if he threatened you? Well, so what if he threatened me? He says if you tell the police you're next, what would you do? I hope that I would have the courage of my convictions and would turn a criminal into the police. Okay. I have a question about what you said earlier about the atheists and the morals.

A lot of people say that when atheists are faced with life or death situations, they actually usually do pray to God, maybe not a specific one. Do you think that it would be okay to maybe force atheists into that position to see what happens? We can test it out. Just round up all the atheists and see what they say then. No, because God gives them a free will to choose whether to pray to him or not during those specific situations as well. I hear it's almost 35% of atheists pray when they are in a foxhole. I don't know if that number is correct, but like you said, it is a very high percentage. And so yet again, that shows we

long for some type of transcendent source, especially when we are suffering. So C.S. Lewis talked about how God whispers to us in our pleasures, but ultimately it's through our pain that God uses that pain as a megaphone to rouse a deaf world to him. And so for the atheist who's suffering, no, God should not come in and force him to talk to him. I mean, if you had a girlfriend who says, I don't want to be with you anymore. I don't love you anymore. Would it be fair and loving and just of you to say, well, I want to force you to still talk to me though, especially if you're depressed?

No, I disagree, but I was thinking the question more so because they're evil. Oh, because they're evil? Should God force them? No, no, not God. Maybe just like the government or something. What if the free people voted that they should no longer be free, the atheists? Oh, but determined and take away their free will? Sure.

Yeah, I don't think we should ever do that. That's treating that atheist now as a robot. A moist robot with just skin on him. And so that would be totally antithetical to what the gospel talks about. Yep, dehumanizing, exactly. But where do you get this dehumanizing from if there is no God?

Why is that dehumanizing? I don't think they will have an answer for that. Well, I think they would just say because they don't like how it feels. Yep, exactly. Feels. And what if your feeling is I do want to do it one day

and not the next? Again, then I can't judge that. It's just your personal feelings. So your truth is your truth. So you respect them saying that. You just don't agree with them. Totally. Okay.

Do you think that Buddhists and other funny people like that should be forced to fly spirit? I don't think we should force anybody to do anything. Okay. Instead, to respect someone means... Should we encourage them to fly spirit? I don't think we should force anybody to do anything. Instead, to respect someone means... Should we encourage them to fly Spirit? If you like Spirit, go right ahead and encourage them.

Oh, no. Well, I don't really care that much. You got a lot of faith to fly Spirit. I'm going to tell you that right now. I'll fly it because, you know, I'm like... I like saving money and stuff, but... Yeah. I mean, should we encourage it to them?

I'm like in the spirit commercials? I don't know what type of commercials they make. Should they maybe encourage them by saying like for, you know, Buddhists, we'll put them in the front of the plane this time or something, you know what I mean? Give them a special offer? Well, I think it's an interesting question, but respecting a person's free will, I think, is fundamental. It's fundamental to faith in Christ. It's fundamental to Judaism. It's fundamental to American democracy.

We were created with a free will. Now, the interesting question is, what does that mean? And unfortunately, in our culture today, it means choice is God, and whatever you choose is good. No, choice is not God. I make a lot of wrong choices. I make a lot of wrong choices. I make a lot of right choices. But the question is, do I have the discernment to distinguish between good choices and bad choices? Do you think we should steal from the rich?

No, no. I read that wrong. Do you think we should steal from the poor and give to the rich? Absolutely no way. Why not? like a complete opposite of robin hood right to steal from someone is to disrespect their dignity your property belongs to you and for me to steal from you is to denigrate you and to say you're cheap but some people would say i'm not saying this maybe i am actually i am saying it but some people would say

that in new y, for example, like some of the homeless people, I mean, they might not even notice if we took like three of the quarters. And then we could give that to a rich guy. I think that's tragic. It's disrespectful. You don't think we should do that? No. So the rich guy would invest it better?

What's the point of giving it to the rich guy? Oh, I don't know. I was just asking it like a hypothetical. Yeah, yeah. It's a thought-provoking question right well jesus didn't even look there was this little guy called zacchaeus in luke chapter 19 who had all the money in the world he was he was little the gospels say he was actually little he was a midget he was a dwarf kind of no we don't really know i have no idea the exact footage on him but it's a hammer he may have had a little hammer.

You're good at questioning. You're a good inquisitor over here, Matan. I'm impressed. Anyway, but this Zacchaeus, though, kind of fits into your question because he's not poor. He's the opposite. He's wealthy, and so you would think Jesus would directly say,

like he did in another parable, for example, give your money away. But he doesn't say that to Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus actually encounters Jesus and then says, right here, right now, I give a large percentage of my money away. So Jesus is not coming in saying, poor should give, rich should give. Instead, he is connecting first with the heart and then wants to see what the response is like. So another example would be this woman who had literally two mite.

And a mite back then was literally next to nothing. It was like a penny. And she gave that. Like a bug. Like a penny, like a like money penny okay and she gave that away out of her poverty to god because she knew all that jesus did she gave it to god but she gave it to the church yes okay i just wasn't you know and so the point of all that is when it comes to money and giving away whether you're poor or wealthy is jesus wants to meet you, change your heart, and not just say, hey, you're a good person, you're a good Jew, so you should give all your money. And so it's like this religious kind of, oh, I'm better than you kind of thing. No, Jesus comes and says, I want to change your heart.

I sacrificed for you to the point of dying for you. Now let's see if you give back or not. This is, I mean, when you mentioned that little midget dwarf guy um another question popped into my mind you guys believe i don't really know the description of it i'm not too familiar with it but you guys believe in the nephilim i believe is what they're called nephilim what are the giants i think you believe in it i think it's yes very possible the interest the hard question is how do you interpret that passage? Oh, so you think it might not be literal? Correct.

Do you know what it says in the passage? Not exactly, no. It's written in Hebrew, obviously, and I have not studied the Hebrew precisely. You don't speak Hebrew? No, I had to learn it in seminary, but it was quite a challenge for me, that's for sure. I don't speak it either, to be clear. Well, there were many people who were living to hundreds and hundreds of years back then too around the nephilim do you believe as a jew taking the torah seriously that that was literal or that they weren't living to be that old

well it would be an interesting question to ask me because i'm not an atheist or agnostic i'm like um but i'm also not extremely religious so it's a tough question the interpretation of it i would say it's probably not literal I think they would probably mean it in a more metaphorical sense Hey guys, sorry for the interruption I have to let you know that today's episode Is sponsored by Sheath Sheath is an underwear company

And hey, if the owner's watching You better watch your fucking back Sheath Underwear offers the dual pouch Which is two separate pouches that help keep everything separate and comfortable and the underwear is also made from materials like modal and bamboo and I know what you did, I'm on to you! My friend Mike tried the underwear and he said he liked it. He gave it a four and a half star review, and then they found him in a dumpster, and I know who did it.

Thank you to Sheath for sponsoring today's episode. If you want to get some for yourself, you can go to sheath.com slash maton. That's S-H-E-A-T-H dot com slash maton, M-A-T-A-N, for 20% off your order. Thank you to Sheet for sponsoring today's episode. Do you really believe that we came from dinosaurs? No, I don't think there's any evidence we came from dinosaurs. Because that's what some of those scientists are saying.

And then some people say that it's just a theory and that we didn't really. Oh, I think there were dinosaurs, but I don't think we came from you don't think that you don't believe in evolution no i believe in evolution as a process but not as an origin so you don't believe that the original ancestor of the human and the monkey and the ape would have been the dinosaur i don't think there's much evidence to support that no but and you do you believe that the humans came from the monkeys, same ancestor, or no? I don't know. It's possible. But I think it's real clear when you talk to breeders that you can breed horses and breed horses and breed horses, but you can't breed horses to the point of getting a fox or a chicken.

Because there's a genetic barrier that you can't cross over. So you can refine horses. You've got thoroughbreds. You've got quarter horses. You've got different breeds of horses. But you can't breed horses to the point of getting a monkey. I see what you're saying. It's similar to the dogs where you can they start off as wolves and you keep breeding

them and eventually you end up with those pugs. Exactly right. They have trouble breathing. They're really interesting dogs. I agree. They do have trouble breathing. I'm real glad you and I don't have trouble breathing. Do you think that God foresaw that the wolves would eventually become puggles,

and maybe they are evil secretly, so he wanted to punish them as a lesson? Oh, that being a pug is God's punishment on the wolf? Correct. Yeah, that would be an interesting question. I think I'll ask God that one day when I see him in heaven, but right now I don't have the faintest idea. If you met him one day, would you think that he would say yes or no to that? I don't know what he'd say.

I don't know. Is it possible that instead of being sent to hell, God punishes extremely evil people by reincarnating them as midgets? Well, we don't... The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Oh, no? No. I recently talked to a rabbi.

Yeah. And he was saying, I don't know if maybe you guys have different views on it. I'm not sure what the exact differences are. But he says that in very specific scenarios there will be reincarnation and that can eventually, you can be reincarnated as an apple. Well, if that's what the rabbi told you, the rabbi has departed from his Judaism because Torah,

Old Testament does not teach reincarnation. But here's what the Bible does teach. If I rip this guy's glasses off, steal his hat, and beat him up, and the police come in and say, Cliff, what have you done to this guy? I said, oh, I just took, used him. And the police say, okay, fine, let's go to Starbucks. He does not matter to the police. If he does matter to the police, and if I rip him up and steal from him, the police will arrest me,

and I will have to enter to a judge, and will probably be thrown into prison. But if the police and the judge simply say, Cliff, it doesn't matter. What if they throw him into prison instead? Then they're making a big, unjust, unfair move. But what if you told them that maybe he started it? You could get him, you could trick him. Well, then we would have to go probably to court

and have a debate about who started it. But the thing is, with Mike over there, he doesn't have any resources. I don't pay him. He has no money or nothing. Why don't you pay him? He's not smart enough to ask for money. He's not smart enough to ask for money?

Well, I mean, do you only pay people who ask for money? I think that I would give, sometimes I give money to homeless people. He's asking for money. Don't give him anything. Don't give me, all right. He's asking for money. Don't give him anything. Don't give me, all right. He's like a beggar. I mean, some people, I give money to homeless people sometimes, but that's because I feel bad for them. Maybe I don't know their situation.

Maybe they just got unlucky or something. And I don't know him personally, but I just feel from his eyes when he doesn't have the glasses on. I think he has an evil look. Oh, really? Well, I've met him. I haven't noticed any evil look. Oh, really? Well, I've met him. I haven't noticed any evil look. I don't want to take a look. Wait, so you give to poor people

kind of just selfishly to make yourself feel good? Not really. Well, I guess it's probably a combination. Well, from an evolutionary perspective, why would you give to poor people the strong eat the weak? I guess I feel bad for them.

So it's a selfish thing because I feel bad. See, for the's a selfish thing. Because I feel bad. See, for the Christian worldview, there's a reason why you'd give to a blind beggar, for example, over here. You would give money to him? Yes. You have anything for him? I mean, I hope I would. Not right now.

I got a pencil or two if you want that. But there's a reason why. There has to be a reason behind. Because you asked about evolution. There has to be a reason why you actually would give to a blind beggar. Oh, here it comes. We convinced him. Look at this.

Michael, look at this. Wow. Buddy, this is the first time. This is a big moment. Take it. No, he doesn't give much. He's a joke over here. Yeah, plane ride on Spirit.

That's it. We flew him in separately from us to get here. We put him in the back of Spirit next to the door. Next to the door? Oh, man. Quick exit. I really do appreciate you guys coming on. I don't know how much.

I don't want to take too much of your time. And then anyways, we have Long Neck. We have to go back to New York City right now to film in another studio. We're flying out Long Neck. I think maybe one, yeah, he has a long neck. That's correct. I think, I don't know

if I would recommend you speak to him. He's an interesting guy. So we need to film with him. He's an evil fellow. So we're going to see if we can deal with him. He can be dealt with.

Well, if you ask these kind of questions and make these kind of points, you're going to win. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. It's good to meet you.'re going to win. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.

It's good to meet you. It was a great experience. This was fun, man. Thanks for having me. Keep it going. Even shake this guy's hand. Good job, buddy.