The Matt Thomas Show with Ross - Rafael Stone & Ime Udoka Discuss Rockets Heading Into Offseason

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

Rafael Stone & Ime Udoka Discuss Rockets Heading Into Offseason

This is for both of you guys. There's a decent amount of lineup data that suggests that this team has performed better without Jalen Green on the court this season. How much do you incorporate that kind of data into your decision-making process moving forward, be it roster construction, coaching decisions, that kind of thing? Yeah, that's a really flawed question. So, like, we have, there's great data that we have and we use. but and I can one of my EMA would know one of my favorite things

and I tell them when when we have new coaches join my one of my favorite things to tell them is I can make data say whatever I wanted to say and and so you know I think you know we we heavily use it but but we're very careful

to try and really parse it out and I would say that I would say that some of our very best lineups include him. And so that that piece by itself, I just think that's just, yeah, that's just not correct. Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently or what would your approach have been differently this season? Just knowing what you know now about how it played out. About how it played out? Yeah, the season, how the season played out.

Like, what would you have done differently knowing what you know now, coach NGM? You know, for me, I think it went pretty appropriately to the way we wanted to as far as, you know, like I said, us being consistent and avoiding losing streaks and growing guys at the right pace. And so, you know, the injuries happen and you get these different lineups out there. And obviously, a man starts to start when Jabari goes down for a while. And so, you know, I wouldn't say many things differently. we have versatility and depth to kind of withstand everything and we showed that. Like I said, the rough stretch was Fred going down until guys kind of grew up and grew into that role.

And so I think it just made us better going into the playoffs and down the stretch of the season by some of the things happening. Unintentionally made us a more well-rounded team. It's not as reliant. So, yeah, you know, we still have some games we felt we gave away and you win 52 and shut it down toward the end of the season. That's a good problem to have. with a little more whatever it is shooting, finishing games, end-game situations. I think you can get in the 60 range, and so played out decently to me. Obviously, the end of the season is sour taste that we're going to feel us the rest of the off-season.

Cam expressed for both the all from each perspective, Cam expressed a couple times just like his unsureness of what his role was on this team. Did you have any special conversations with him? Do you have to do this off-season? What was his role? What does he have to do to change? his role? Yeah, I was a little caught off guard by that as well because we've had in-depth

conversations with Cam probably more than anybody. And so, you know, I'm pretty clear with what is going to get you on the court and what's going to help you sustain a role. And so, yeah, I'll leave it at that as far as that. But plenty of conversations are very clear with what's needed. And, you know, opportunities are there and not always taking advantage of or, you know, other guys step up and play a little better at times. and you're looking for that consistency there.

And so we'll have our exit meetings. We had about five or six yesterday, and we'll catch the other guys before they leave town and reiterate a lot of points. But a ton of potential there is just the consistency is the main thing. And he knows that. And this is for the both of you. How important is the theme of continuity in this project

that you've built over the last two years and moving forward? I mean, I think all things being equal, continuity is great, you know. Sometimes they're not equal. like we made a big addition to our team this year and Stephen Adams. Like we obviously we acquired him at the trade deadline last year, but he wasn't playing. And I think we all believe that that was a really, really helpful addition. And so I think continuity for continuity's sake isn't what we're trying to achieve.

But I do think like especially given we have so many young players that we think are internally improving, I think it's easier for players, it's easier for people to improve and to feel good in situations that they're comfortable in. So continuity helps with that. And I think from a coaching perspective, like you don't, you know, you're not trying to bring somebody up to speed. And obviously there are guys who are just so high IQ that it's all really quick. But there's lots of effective players who it takes time. And so the more continuity you have, the less you have to do some of that. So again, all things being equal, continuity is great.

But, you know, the goal ultimately is to build a championship team. And if we think that there's a move or a series of moves that make it more likely we will be that, then we would ignore continuity and we'd do those moves. Yeah, I would say for me anyway, we talked about going into year two in the goals and understood that everybody was going to be much better in the second year. So we kind of hit the ground running as far as that, to his point, on the addition of Stephen was there. And I think it really was a big part of us jumping out the way we did this year.

And so that continuity is good, no doubt. But you've seen teams make a lot of moves, and they'd feel like they need to get over the hump, and Don Chis is added or Butler is added, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But we always felt comfortable about what we had here. and that we take this step this year. For both of you, is there anything that you learned about individual players or just the roster in total

by playing the Warriors seven straight games and just kind of seeing the ways that they attacked you when you had their full attention for two and a half weeks? You know, I don't, I think we learned a lot about our, I think it's less what we learned and more it's a learning opportunity. That's how I think about it, which is like the grind of a sense. series is different from the regular season and the intensity like what like just this is a compliment to e-may that my favorite thing about this team is I felt from the beginning of the year to the end of the year we were the hardest playing team in basketball and that's that's really a testament to him and his staff and obviously to our players as well um but but that'll get you over in the

regular season in a way it won't get you over in the playoffs because everybody plays hard in the playoffs. And so getting our guys to realize that, like, not getting them to realize that, them having the opportunity to feel what that's like. I just think it's a tremendous learning opportunity. And some of it we picked up on the fly. We for sure improved through the course of those seven games. But I think the bulk of that opportunity is to come where they get a chance to reflect on it and incorporate it and work through the summer and work through next year. So that's that's more how I think about it. An experience for me is a big thing for our young guys going through for the first time and

you know, how fast can we adapt to it and next time we're in the playoffs since it's hit the ground running from game one, not, you know, take a step back. And I think we kind of found our footing, you know, midway through the series, but let go some opportunities early that I think with the series under your belt, the hard fought series you can kind of reflect on and go back on those lessons that you've learned. So

I think our guys will be better for it, no doubt. In regards to a man, just being in the gym with him every day, how would you quantify his growth, particularly on the offensive end and what's possible for him on that end? And Rafael, what was it like for you, seeing the guy that you were really high on, but into this rising star throughout

the year? Yeah. I mean, he's an extremely hard worker, a grinder like all of our guys are. He never had to complain about that of guys not putting in the work. And so he views himself as one of the best, if not the best, at what he's trying to be. And there's no real ceiling for him. He's going to continue to ascend like that. But the understanding, he catches on very quickly.

And once he does some things, he applies it and kind of puts it in his memory bank and just his versatility as, you know, he's much different. we used him in much different ways than what he did his whole career and he's adapted to all those things very well and so ultimate um swiss army knife put him in any position one through five he guards one through five he has played and um it gives us a ton of luxury and versatility to have a guy like that but um yeah sky's limit no ceiling on what he wants to be and and the work he puts in has showed that this is for both of you guys what did y'all like about the identity of the team this year. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the lessons I've learned in my current role is that there's a lot of ways to win in the NBA,

and there's different organizations that have been successful doing different things. And one of the best ways to win in the NBA is just getting obscenely lucky and, lucking into player X who elevates everyone around him or something like that. But when you're trying to build something, I guess the biggest lesson I've learned is that having a clear direction that fits the organization's personality is really important. And I guess for our organization, that 100% starts with Tillman. And then it's me. and then it's our coach

and then it's our players and and it's but it's not like four people or 15 people or whatever it's really there's like I don't know 100 of us or 90 of us or something

that interact on a daily basis so taking that back to the team and everything what I would say is that like there's different ways you can win and there's different ways you can lose you can You can win a game by making every three-pointer and playing horrific defense and never getting a rebound. You can win a game, never making a three-pointer and playing the world's best defense in rebounding.

I'm my personality, just me, I'm way more comfortable trying to win in version two of that than version one. and if I can, I personally, I'm okay. If I feel like we left it all on the table, I can lose and be okay. I struggle, I struggle if I feel like we're soft or not, or getting outworked. Going all the way back to the first time we met and spent time together for me and I'ma, that was, that was something I felt like we kind of bonded over. and it was for sure something I thought was going to end up being important to him, and obviously it is important to him.

And so the way this team kind of in year two has taken that on is something I really like. And I think we have an identity, and I think it fits Tillman's identity, and it fits mine, and it fits EMAs, and it fits our players. And I think that's a good basis, a good building block from which we can build. Ditto.

What do you like this? I mean, it is a lot of what he said, and that was from day one, where the competitiveness and effort and, you know, all those things were there from day one, especially for a young team and a team that had lost a lot. And so that's where you start with, and we've built it from there. And so I think guys have gotten tougher,

and guys have pulled each other up and, you know, all rubbed off on each other as far as I. that edge and toughness and you start with that and then you get to the skills you get to the IQ you get to all the other areas where we need to grow and continue to build and learn but the foundation is set and we know we know we give ourselves a really good chance on a nightly basis because of that and so message was you you come in with this effort and this competitiveness you'll win three out of four games that was our goal we said you know 75% of your games 70 75% is doing that on nightly basis and we've done that from day one and so you saw the competitiveness the scuffle

scuffles and scratch you know all the things from last year and i think we've only increased that as guys have grown and we'll continue to when they get more confident more physically stronger and all those things and bodes well for us going forward that that's late and now we've got to work on everything else the skill set the IQ and just continue to grow as a group question for both of you as you look back on the series what is your assessment of what jaylon did in that series how do you balance that with what you saw over the course of a long season and perhaps what are the next steps for him to take as a player to become the player that i'm sure you would like him to become you know jaylin didn't have the series that he wanted to have or we didn't but uh i think you know it's it's a little bit of a double-edged sword in terms of trying to evaluate it

because their goal going into the series was to take him out. And that was obvious. And I think they talked about it. I didn't actually listen to what they said afterwards, but people told me what they said. So, like, who knows? I think they talked about it. We're not a team built around any one player offensively,

whether it's Jalen or Alperin or a man or Fred. And so if your goal is to take him, take out one of our players. In theory, what should happen is that our other players should just punish it. And EMA frequently talks to the guys about inviting double teams, hit the guy, like,

and you're the sacrificial lamb. And so, you know, in some games we punished it, in some games we didn't. You know, in one of the games, we ended up with great spacing and we were able to like punish it with him. That's maybe unsustainable. But, but yeah, I would just say that like we, for all of our guys, like, we want them to learn and everything else, but it's not, you know, one playoff series doesn't define a player.

But also I think, in particular with him and that, yeah, like if a team's going after you like that, they're going after you like that. And then it's a team game for a reason. And I'm confident that if we want to take any one player out, we can and will on it. team in the NBA. And so it's just the repercussions of that that impact the winning or losing. That's how I think about it. And more of the same where he really improved as far as that. It's a compliment to him that teams will go after him to that extent. And you saw it throughout the season. He had some practice at it and we got better at it. But the main thing is obviously getting the ball to the playmakers behind it and not turning it over. And at times he struggled with

that early in the season and he's really improved there. To Raffel's point, we made him pay at times and then at times it worked in their favor, vice versa with them when we took Curry out at times and Peyton hurts us down the stretch, but a lot of other guys miss wide-almed shots and we win those going away. And so the more practice and confidence you have with that and him just, you know, being the decoy at times like I mentioned. And so there are opportunities that you still will have with that. And the more stops we can get, the more we can play in transition.

and to avoid those is good for him and good for us. But, you know, he went through some growing pains, no doubt. I think physically getting stronger to absorb contact on some of his drives when he has the advantage or finishing at the rim when he does get the driving lane. All those things are things we talked about with him going into the off season and able to use him off ball a little bit more. And you've got to get a little bit stronger as far as that because they took him out of some of those actions where they couldn't trap. And so some areas for him to grow, obviously some areas for us to use them a little bit better. but when he does face those, we have enough talent behind,

especially a really good passing big like Alpi that should punish that every night. Tari and Jabari both missed some time with injuries this season, but we're able to make an impact still. IMA, how do you evaluate their development this season specifically? And Rafael, how likely do you think it is that those two sign extensions? Yeah, for me, obviously Jabari going down, he came back really good and adapted to the role. back in which was coming off the bench and so um you know you slid um men and there and we

were a different team but um better in some ways obviously the shooting wasn't there at the starting unit but um his versatility and and amends made that a seamless transition where i think he's ultimate professional came back and handled it well and even showed you know how much we missed him while he was gone you know he plugged a lot of those gaps when he came back whether it was starting at the four or playing the three or the three or the five at times and with a double big lineup he was really good there. Tari's a little different obviously you know it's like the continuity of him playing every night but had to be conscious of that and getting him to the end of the season as well and so there are some things with a young guy that you

want to see growth wise and I think the fact that he couldn't play on nightly basis you know that's a tough one for him especially as competitive as he is and so you know you didn't mention Fred as well you know being out with injuries and how that hurt us and effect this, but how it helped the team overall. And so those two continue to show growth. You know, I would say overall, they have a lot of things to work on like everybody, and they know that. And that's what this big off-season is for.

Sorry, I was going to say, I know you said you wanted me to comment on their free agency status, which is their extension eligible. We will talk. I'm not going to comment on any of our negotiations, but they're very important parts of what we do. And they're really, really both solid, solid guys. Like, I love those guys. Actually, like, it's probably already come across,

but this team as a whole, like the group of guys that you, you know, to come in every day and work with is just great. It's just great. And yeah, I thought both Tari and Jabari in particular had really hard years with injuries and just growing up, growing pains of various sorts. And they just, they both handled it so well. Yeah, I'm very appreciative of them and their effort and very excited about where, you know, the direction I think they're both headed. This question is for Raphael. You have an opportunity to talk with Tillman a lot.

Later on in the season, later on in the season and during the playoffs and after the playoffs, I know he leads the basketball stuff up to you, but what is his vision moving forward going into next season? And how does he currently see the roster constructed? I mean, I think it's, you know, we're aligned. It's the visions. The vision is the one I've laid out to you,

which is where, you know, I don't know. I think I like no one believe me but I think like four years ago I was like we're going to be really young and I think I use words like excited I never use words like winning like like you know we knew we know we knew what we were in for and he knew what he was in for and and you know and we're not there like the goal is to build a championship team and we clearly were not a championship team this year so we're all we're all still in it but um but he's completely bought in uh he he you know I I'll just speak on his behalf like I I I I'll just speak on his behalf like I I I I know this is his favorite team he's ever had. Just, again, kind of a lot of it is what I just said, which is he also has an opportunity to be around our guys day in and day out. And they're good guys. And I think he appreciates them, not just for the players they are, but for the people they are.

And, yeah, and he's just very bought in on this group and seeing and thinking that this group can get us to where we want to go. You're right. You did say excitement. We tried to get you to give us a number, and you wouldn't. Sorry, I remember that. EMA, you've been around basketball a long time. What do you do in terms of evaluating yourself and your staff as that process to say,

where are we, what can we work on? What's that process for you? Yeah. I mean, before the season starts, we do a full season recap of, obviously, our coach of retreat. We get together and look at the previous season and look at areas of growth, improvement, across the board. We check the numbers and you see how we use guys, how we develop guys. Everybody has a different role.

with the coaching staff, but reflecting on myself and looking at areas of growth, it's always a big thing. And that obviously starts much before we get together for a coach's retreat. And so, yeah, it's always ways to improve. And that was a message to the team yesterday and after the game was I have to come back better. The staff does as well and all of you guys as well. And so it's not just physically, mentally, all those things. Yeah, it's overall growth. It's not pointing any fingers that we miss shots.

Did we get the right shots? Did we use you guys the right way? And, you know, target areas to be better at or be number one. And we hit some of those this year. We've been really good at some, but we can always be a lot better. And so different ways to grow and learn and kind of lean back on experiences, to your point. I've been seeing a lot of things and been around for a long time. And anything we can implement to make our team better and things run more smoothly.

You mentioned not being at a championship level. what do you believe is the first step you all will take to get to that level? What more do you feel like you all need to get there? We're going to work hard over the summer and everybody's going to be better. Then we'll see where we're at.

That's the one thing I know will happen. Yeah, the rest will see, but I know that will happen. And we have the vast bulk of our rotational minutes are being played by players that I believe in my soul will be way better next year than they were this year.

because that's the point of their career that they're at. So I think we'll see what, you know, we'll see what that brings. Thank you, Eric. Thank you. All right, that was the press conference. Boy, there was not a whole lot of, we're going to listen to phone calls. I mean, they're going to, but certainly from two days after the defeat of the team, it was, we love our core, we love our nucleus, we love our group of eight that were our rotation guys.

Trust? The process. So it sounds like that's probably what they're going to go with. I'll stick with my gut feeling from earlier. There's no earth-shattering superstar move, but maybe a rotational player. So maybe we should not get into a deep-seated conversation about the certain member of the Milwaukee Bugs or the certain member of the Phoenix Suns. Probably not, or any members of the Phoenix Suns. Let's say that happens.

Let's say they re-signed Stephen Adams, they restructure Fred Van Fleet, and they keep their lottery pick. How are you feeling about next year? I'm feeling good. But the hangover of Jaylin is the hangover that James Hardin has. Now, is that going to be a one-year issue for Janeland in the playoffs? I pray for James Hardin. At least he'd get you 10 assists. But the curse, not the curse, but the aura of James in important games, that hasn't changed.

And he's been only 15 years. Yeah. And I mean, it's just the, I would say that right now the fan base, as far as their support for Jalen Green is at an all-time low. And they're just feeling the way that this series went. I'm feeling as probably as pessimistic as I have about his career, about him, his blossoming career. So he said, Rafael did, what is his team to be like next year? And he said, this, this, this is, they're all going to be better, they're going to work hard, which they're all going to do. they've never been adverse to working hard.

I've seen him myself. Yes. But I think there's one thing that has to change next year.