The Matt Walsh Show - Ep. 47 - The Two Dangerous Mistakes We Make When We Discuss Suicide

Episode Date: June 11, 2018

Whenever suicide is in the news, well intentioned people say really horrible and dangerous things about it. In an effort to be kind and generous to the dead, they end up justifying, glorifying, and promoting suicide, which is very harmful to the living. Today I want to talk about two of the great lies people tell about suicide, thinking they are being helpful, when really they are causing enormous harm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So I want to say some things about suicide today. It's a difficult subject, a painful subject, a personal subject. Like so many millions of other people, this is something that I've not only heard about on the news, but I've also encountered around me in my own life, in the lives of people close to me, especially. And I think that's probably the case for almost everybody that's watching this right now. almost everybody, unfortunately, in the country, probably connected to this issue personally in some way. So that's what I want to talk about. And the reason I want to tell you ahead of time that this is something that I've encountered is so that you understand that,

you know, I'm not just approaching this from a purely analytical kind of detached perspective, but from a, I hope a rational and grounded perspective, but also a human one, a personal one. Now, obviously, the reason that we're discussing this now is that two prominent people killed themselves last week, Anthony of Wardane and Kate Spade. And in the meantime, there have been news reports about the rapidly rising suicide rate across the country.

And it's rising nearly everywhere in every state. so something is clearly happening in this country something something is going wrong i think that's obvious um and when we see suicide especially among the rich and famous and successful it makes us stop and kind of ponder for a minute because our assumptions are overturned and the facade kind of melts away and we're awakened to this, or reawakened, I guess, to this stark reality where we realize that wealth and comfort and success are just frills. They're superficial. They don't mean anything necessarily. Because a person can have all that and yet be deeply in despair. They can be hopeless and miserable and yet have all that. So there has to be more to life, we realize.

You know, we often will look at rich and famous people and will say, man, they must really love their lives, right? We'll look at somebody who's like that. And we'll say, man, he must really love his life. But what do we mean when we say that? What we really mean is that they must love the comforts and luxuries in their lives. But to love comfort and luxury is not. to love life. To love life is to love life, regardless of the circumstances. So if we can't love

life in poverty, if we can't love it in suffering, if we can't love it while deprived and wanting and hungry and all of that, then we don't love it. And so for those of us who can't even imagine loving life under those circumstances, and our affection for life is tied completely to either the material goods that we have or the material goods that we dream of one day accumulating. For those of us in that category, we don't love life. We are either in despair or we're on the edge of despair. And so I think that there are a great many people in this country who are either in despair or are on the edge of it. and our reaction to the suicides of famous successful people just kind of speaks to this.

Yeah, of course we should be sad. Of course, it's, you know, of course we're going to be surprised. But the fact that we're shocked at the very idea that someone who is rich and famous might kill themselves, I think that reveals something within ourselves. that we have a misunderstanding about life and about what's supposed to make people happy. So even with all of these facts and these things tragically demonstrated to us by the suicides of people like Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade, I think we continue in the face of this issue, we continue to miss the point of everything. and we continue to perpetuate the problem by reacting to suicide in the worst possible ways and saying

the worst possible things about it. And so I want to focus today, especially on two mistakes that I think we make when we talk about suicide. And I think these are dangerous mistakes. These are mistakes that are leading people down very dark paths. So the first mistake. I've heard time and time again, especially after the suicide of somebody famous, that suicide is not a choice. This is what people will say.

They'll say, well, it's not a choice. Nobody would choose that. I think this is basically well-intentioned when people say this. They're trying to be generous to the departed. They don't want to suggest that somebody would actually choose this because if they chose it, then that means that they also chose. to leave their families and to leave the whole world behind and to cause all this pain and suffering to those around them and and we we don't want to say that because if we say that then that means that we're saying that suicide is selfish

and which is which is something that by the way in the old days it was generally accepted by everyone that it's a selfish act but now you're not allowed to say that you don't we don't want to say that because it's very much mean to say, so instead, we go all the way to the other extreme and we completely exonerate the person who's committed suicide. We completely not only exonerate then, but we defend, we practically defend what they did by saying that it wasn't a choice. It was merely the result of depression. And death is the result of depression, like death may be the result of pancreatic cancer, we say. It's just something. You can't help it. You play no part in it whatsoever. It just happens to you. That's all. In the same way that if you have cancer and your organs start shutting down and what have you, it's exactly the same. This is what I've been told. It's exactly the same. There's no difference. And when a person commits suicide from depression, they play no purposeful role in it at all. What a horrible, horrible thing to say.

it is absolutely the worst thing to say. I mean, it really is horrible. And if this is the kind of thing that you say in the wake of suicide being in the news, I ask you to stop saying that because it's wrong, it's a lie, and you're hurting people. It is a horrible, terrible, awful thing to say. To say that it's not a choice at all is a horrible thing. it's not hard to see why it would be so horrible and dangerous. Think about it for a second.

Imagine a suicidal person. Imagine a suicidal person who is depressed, lost, and hopeless. He already feels like he has no choice, like there is no other way. He feels that way. It doesn't mean that that's actually what's going on. That doesn't mean that it's true. But he feels that way. and then you come along and confirm this notion.

You come along and say, you're right, you have no choice. Depression just may up and kill you one day against your will. You have no choice in the matter. There's nothing you can do of your own volition. You have no choice. What have you done? In the interests of being fair and generous to the dead, what have you done to the living?

Maybe we should focus more, when we talk about suicide, we should focus more on helping the living rather than the dead. Tragically, terribly, the people who are dead are now, they're gone now. But there are people, there's a lot of people that are still alive who are struggling with this. And so when we tell these lies about suicide for the sake of the dead, we hurt the living. And so what have you done to this depressed person who's on the edge of being suicidal or is suicidal, yet is still alive? By telling him he has no choice, what have you done? You've done the opposite of empower him.

You've done the opposite of encourage him. You've just told him he has no power. He has no free will. You've just told him depression is a disease like cancer. It's a cancer inside him. There's nothing he can do about it. at all. It may kill him against his will. Do you really not see the problem with saying that to somebody? Do you think when somebody is suicidal, what they need to be told is they have no choice?

Now, let's imagine this a little bit more directly and explicitly. Imagine that a man is standing at the top of a building on the ledge, okay? And you're standing there 30 feet way on the top of the building. And he shouts to you and he says, I have no choice. I have to do it. There's no other way. What do you say in response? Do you say, you're right, you have no choice. You're not guilty. This is not, you should have no guilt. This is not a choice. You have no choice. This is a disease doing this to you. Nobody will judge you if you go ahead with it. You have no choice. Is that what you say? or do you say you do have a choice? Yes, you do have a choice. You have the power. You are in control. This is all you right now. And you will decide what the next step is. And there is a right and wrong choice here. You have the power to make the right choice. You do. Now, I would suggest that if you said the first thing, you have no choice, to somebody on the edge of a building, you are a monster.

You're just a monster. You're like that. What was that case of that girl who was, who encouraged, basically encouraged her boyfriend to commit suicide? And while he was in the car about to go through with the act, she was text messaging him, basically saying, like, yeah, you know, this is the only way. Just go ahead and do it. That's what it reminds me of. if you would actually say that to somebody on the ledge of a building. But you would never say that.

You would never say that to somebody on the edge of a building, would you? You would never say it in that situation to somebody on the physical ledge. So why do so many people say it to those who are almost on the ledge? If you wouldn't say it to the person while they're on the ledge about to jump, why would you say it to all the people in our society who are metaphorically right now walking towards that ledge? Why would you take power and choice away from them at the moment when they most need it and most need to realize that they have it? Now, of course, it's true that a suicidal person is compromised, intellectually, emotionally.

He's burdened. He's in pain. All of these things, the emotional turmoil, the despair, the storm that's raging inside them, these are all mitigating factors when assessing the problem. personal guilt of the person after the act. But here's the thing. We are not the ones who assess the personal guilt after the fact. That's God. That's not our job. He's going to sort that out. We can't. We can't go anywhere near that subject. So it's true that all these things, what's going on inside somebody's head and heart when they make this decision or when they make any decision. That speaks to their personal moral guilt, and it can seriously, it would seem, mitigate that guilt. But again, that's not what we're talking about. We're not assessing guilt.

You know, we can't assign guilt. Neither can we take guilt away. We can't just sit back and announce that, oh, this person is entirely guilty for this act. And we also can't sit back and say, they're not guilty at all. We can't say either one of those things. And to say either one of those things would be a terrible lie. It would also be to put ourselves in the place of God, which we can't do. All we can do is determine what is literally physically true. Does a person choose to act a certain way or not? how much guilt they personally carry with them for choosing it. We can't do that. But did they choose it?

I mean, you know, I pick up this cup. Am I choosing to do this? You can't get inside my mind and tell me anything about what's going on inside my heart or my mind. But I certainly am obviously choosing to do this because nobody else is doing it. I am physically doing it. I am choosing to do it. we have free will and a choice that is made under great duress is still a choice a decision made in despair in pain is still a decision if somebody came into the room right now

and put a gun to my head and said matt pick up that cup you know something i still have a choice I could refuse to pick it up. Now, the consequences would be very severe. I'd probably be killed. But I could choose not to do it. So even with a literal gun to my head, my free will and my capacity to choose are still intact. Nobody can take that away.

I still haven't. To say that suicide is not a choice is either to say that every person who commits suicide is clinically insane, or, which would be a ridiculous claim, obviously, or it's to kind of compartmentalize a person's mind and to say, okay, well, here is you, on one hand, inside your mind, and then over here,

this is the part of your brain that commits suicide, and that part is not you. That's not you. This is you, that's not. What does that mean? If that's not you, who is it? Of course it's you. They're both you. you are a complete whole person.

You can't be divided up. You are a complete whole immutable human being. You can't be divided into sections. It's only you. You are the only one who is you. The fact that you're under duress when you make a wrong choice does not mean that it wasn't a choice. This episode is brought to you by Redfin.

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of duress or in response to a compulsion or a temptation. Every destructive choice is made that way. And the really destructive choices, the really bad choices are always made under severe duress or in response to severe compulsion. So think about the worst crimes that you can imagine. Think about people that are in jail for the worst kinds of crimes, rape, murder, so on. nobody does those things while in a calm state of mind they're always in some kind of turmoil and internally there's always a compulsion of course there is so if suicide is uh is not a choice then no bad thing is a choice if we only have free will when we're also free from compulsion and emotional stress then nobody has free will and if that's what you're

believe that nobody has free will, then so be it. But please, then you have to explain, if you don't believe that anyone has free will, well, then what are you doing passing out the suicide hotline? What are you doing saying, you know, if you're depressed, if you feel suicidal, talk to somebody? What are you doing passing out hotlines and giving tips to depressed people if you don't think they have a choice? If you don't think they can choose to act upon the advice you are giving them, then why are you giving it? The fact that you're giving you. advice means that you know it's a choice, that they have a choice. And so you're trying to influence them to make the right choice, which is a wonderful thing to do. All I'm saying is

don't confuse the situation by saying that on one hand, on the other hand, saying, well, they don't have a choice. It is a choice in a literal sense. It is a choice. And so we ask ourselves, what is true? Is it a choice or is it not? Well, it's true that it is a choice. We can also ask ourselves, what is the most helpful thing to say to someone who's contemplating suicide? Is it helpful to tell them that they have no choice? Or is it helpful to tell them that they do? I think clearly it's most helpful to tell them that they do. This is not about heaping guilt. It's not about telling, you know, it's not about anything like that. It's about empowering. It's about telling the truth, and it's about empowering. And if a person is contemplating this act, and they think

about the fact that they have a choice and that they have the power, and which isn't to say that this is something they should do on their own. No, because if you're in that state of mind, you need to reach out and talk to somebody, get some help. I agree with that. Don't go through it on your own. The fact that you have a choice doesn't mean that this is something you have to do on your own or should do on your own. You shouldn't. When we get to that point, we have to reach out for help, but that doesn't, but that's not the same thing as saying you have no choice. Because again, if you have no choice, then you can't even reach out to anybody necessarily. You can't choose to do that. Okay, so the second mistake people make. I have seen many people say, again, this is basically

well-intention, but harmful and foolish. Many people have said that Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade are finally at peace. This is what I've seen online. They're finally at peace. And this brings to mind that tweet that the Academy sent after Robin Williams committed suicide. Maybe you remember. The tweet was a picture of Aladdin hugging the genie, the genie, which of course was voiced by Robin Williams. And the caption said, Jeannie, you're free. Now, these are nice sentiments.

They are pleasant sentiments. They're also horrible. Now, again, we're not God. We cannot know what happens to any individual person after death. We can't know. It would certainly be wrong to declare that every suicide is now in hell.

very few people are tempted to make such declarations these days, so it's not even worth dwelling on, but if anyone were to say that, it would be wrong to say, because you're not God. You don't decide that. You cannot assess personal moral guilt. You don't know what's going on inside somebody's hardened inside their mind. So that's why, whether it's a suicide or no matter how somebody dies,

and no matter what circumstances they die, you cannot say where they are and what they're doing right now. but it's wrong to say because it's up to God to decide, and only God can judge what's happening inside somebody's heart and soul. Only God can judge. You know, that's what everyone says. Only God can judge. But what people really mean when they say that is that only God can judge the guilt or innocence of a person.

We can, however, judge actions. We have been given that ability. by God, and he wants us to use that ability. So we can judge the action of suicide as gravely wrong, deeply disordered, and thus not a means to peace or freedom. So it's wrong to say of an individual person who died from suicide that they're in hell. That's very wrong to say. But it is certainly wrong.

I would say even more wrong because of the scandal that it causes and what it makes. encourage people to do, I would say it's even more wrong to sit back and just declare, oh, they're at peace now. They're happy now. They're at peace. They're not suffering anymore. They're at peace. The truth is, we don't know where they are or what's happening to them, or how much peace they have or don't have. What we do know is that the act of suicide is extremely wrong and extremely bad. And anyone who is looking for peace and freedom should not look for it that way.

That's what we know, and that's what we should say. Now, again, think of the suicidal person. Do you imagine that you're helping him by saying that Anthony Bourdain is at peace and free right now? If you mean to help him over the ledge, well, then that's a great way to do it. But if you mean to dissuade him from self-annihilation, you are doing it wrong. Because very clearly, clearly, you are promoting and glorifying suicide and making it seem appealing when you speak about it in those kinds of terms.

When a suicidal person hears you say, oh, this person killed themselves, they're at peace now, clearly you are promoting it to that person. You are directly, you are like selling it to them. So please stop saying that. It's not true. You don't, you cannot speak for the state of somebody's soul after death. This is a wrong thing. It's a bad thing. It's a, it's not a good thing to do, which is why we try to persuade people not to do it.

And so we can't go around saying that this is how people find peace. This is not how you find peace. One more point about this. We seem so concerned with protecting the honor and the good name of those who have already died this way. But what about the families that are left behind? How would you like it if somebody close to you killed themselves, say your spouse or something? and you are left justifiably angry, justifiably feeling abandoned.

But then everyone comes up to you and says of that person who just left you, oh, he's at peace now. He's free. He had no choice, you know. He had no choice at all. What they're telling you is that your anger is unfair and that your feelings are off base. And in fact, you are the selfish one, apparently,

because you would prefer if your loved one didn't find his peace. You're feeling angry and abandoned and what you're being told by all these people is you have no right to feel that way. That's wrong. What, you didn't want this person to find their peace? Again, I think this is just wrong. I think it's so wrong. I think that our rhetoric around suicide needs to be focused on the living. more than it's focused on, you know, more than being focused on trying to justify and so on

after the fact. It needs to be focused on promoting life and on taking into consideration those who are alive. Our job after a suicide is not to protect the honor and good name of a person who's already committed suicide, it's to say the truth for the sake of those who are contemplating it and for the sake of those who have been left behind because of it. That's what we need to do. Obviously, I don't think we should insult or demean a person who kills themselves. Far from it. But neither should we say untruths and lies for their sake. It's not right. It's dangerous. It's hurting people. We need to step back and look at the situation and see that, yes, our rhetoric around suicide,

our discussion around suicide now is just so, it's, to call it non-judgmental is, is, is underselling it completely. Our discussion of suicide has gotten to the point where it basically promotes it and outright justifies it. And what have we seen happen at the same time? the suicide rate just climbs and climbs and climbs. I don't think that's a coincidence. So these are just some things to take in consideration.

And again, I will say just in closing that if you're struggling with feelings like this and thoughts like this, make the choice to talk to somebody and to reach out for help because we're not meant to suffer through the darkest, moments alone. It's a very hard thing to be alone and to think you're alone and we don't need to be. You're not. All right. Thanks for watching everybody. Thank you for listening. Godspeed.