The Matt Walsh Show - The Price of Principle: Facing a Decade In Prison For Protecting the Unborn

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Grand Canyon University - Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University: https://www.gcu.edu/      I sit down with pro-life activist and father of 11, Paul Vaughn, to discuss his upcoming sentencing after being charged with violating the FACE Act in Nashville, TN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sitting here with Paul Vaughn, who is a pro-life activist who was recently arrested, charged, and convicted by the Biden administration of violations of something called the Face Act. And we're going to get into all of that, including what the Face Act is. But first, Paul, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Before we get into all the details here, how have you been in what I'm sure is an extremely trying time for you and your family? Sure. You know, we've been ups and downs, right? It's not every day someone gets convicted and brought in the federal court system. So it's a new ground for us, if you will. I imagine. What about your family? How have they reacted to all this? Yeah, I mean, it's brought us closer together, right? When you get drawn into a battle, it brings the relationships stronger. It makes it all depend on Christ more, and that's where we're at. So this goes, this protest happened back in 2021, correct? Yep, March.

And so let's just begin by kind of setting the stage. What was the protest? What happened that day? And also what was your specific involvement? Sure. Well, I'm president of a person of Tennessee, and so we're a life advocacy organization that deals a lot with pro-life ministry,

but also all facets of life across humanity, across every stage of life. Part of our ministry is a sidewalk counseling out of abortion clinics. So we would go out and offer literature and help to young ladies, you know, in a situation where they might need an abortion or think they need an abortion and try to help them. So on the day in question, that's what we were doing. Care of them is a little bit different.

That it's not accessible outside. It's in a public building, a multi-clinic building. So we were in the hallways, the public hallways that day, offering help to mom seeking abortion. And what does that look like, offering help? Yeah, usually just engage in. in their conversation, asking, you know, obviously there's in that particular hallway, there's only the abortion clinic, so you know pretty much what they're doing if they're coming down that hallway. And then just asking them if they know that there's other options available.

Do they understand the ramifications and the dangers of what they're doing? You know, abortion's not been a highly moral industry where they, you know, give clear warnings and market labeling, as it were, to the dangers and the risk associated with abortions. and then certainly the post-abortion traumatic stress syndrome and the things that go along with abortion. So we just try to make sure they have all the facts, let them know that people are there to help them, that sometimes usually abortion seems like the only way out.

It's the last option, kind of a solution, you know, terminal solution. And we try to let them know that there are other options out there and there are people, that strangers that they don't know, they're willing to help them and be there for them. What kind of reactions do you typically get from the women that you engage with? Sure, I mean, it's across the board, right? It's a highly emotionally charged time in that person's life. And some respond in tears and, oh, thank God, I didn't know anyone cared.

And some respond with cursing and violence and, you know, anger and, you know, being frustrated that they feel like they're being called out on the, you know, participating in abortion. And if you get the latter response, the cursing and the violence, how do you respond to that? Sure. I mean, it's always in a defensive offsetting trying to tampen down the, situation and calm it down. So we obviously don't ramp up and cuss back and holler and scream. It's a, hey, I understand you're upset. You know, we just wanted to make sure you knew there are options and we're here to help and just anything we can do to tone it down and try to help.

Because, you know, at the end of the day, they're not mad at me. They're in a hard situation. And so we go, we did sidewalk training classes where we've gone into churches and taught how to de-escalate things, how to bring things down, what kind of people you'll see at the clinic and what you're going to expect. And so we cover all this in our training extensively and different models, different assessments and things to do when you're dealing with that situation. How long have you been doing pro-life work? Gosh, since early 90s, 93, I suppose. I'm sure you're familiar with the sort of the stereotype of pro-life pro-lifers in general, but especially those who show up outside the clinics. And usually the stereotype is

screaming and yelling at the women and telling them they're going to hell and that sort of thing. Sure. In my experience, I don't have as much experience as you do, but in my experience with pro-life protesters, I don't think I've ever seen that, but that's not, it sounds like that's not your experience either. Well, it's certainly not something we do. And to be clear, there are always people that are out there that usually they're rogue, they're not associated with the church, they don't have any actual training or any,

you know, a lot of times they're post-aborted themselves. they feel guilty. And so there are people that come out there. They're more aggressive, more rebuking, and certainly not the Spirit of Christ that we believe actually helps people. And so while those people are out there, they're certainly a minority, and it's something that the pro-abortion side latches onto and tries to make it like it's the majority of folks. And it's just simply not true. So going back to that day at 2021, you said this was a clinic that was inside like an office building? Yes, it's a multi-tenant building. So there was dentist office, massage therapist, and all kinds of other tenants in the building along with the abortion clinic, which was care from clinic. And then the activists were out in the hallway?

Correct. And you were out in the hallway as well? I was, yeah. What happened that particular day? Did the police show up? Sure. So the first thing is the security guard walks down the hall and tells us we need to leave. And Matt, let me go back just a second as I, to set it up a little bit, you know, the trespassing is what the charge was that day for the folks that did get arrested. It was not me. I did not get arrested that day. But in order to be trespassed off a property, the building owner has to tell you you're not welcome.

And specifically the property, when it's a multi-tenant dwelling, and the expectation is that all the public is welcome because of all the tenants that are in the building. So there's the legal framework for where I was operating in that day of having the building manager, building owner, operator, actually telling us we weren't welcome. Did that happen? It did not, actually, ironically. And you see that in some of the interviews after the fact with the police officers going back to the clinic asking specifically if they had the authority to trespass people, if the building owner was aware and different things like that in the post-arrest interviews that took place. But basically what happened is we came into the hallway, the security guard came down, told us to leave. He said, we're gonna call the police.

So they called the police. The first couple officers showed up and told us to go out on the sidewalk, you can protest on the sidewalk. And the folks that wanted that were going to risk arrest that day in a rescue fashion, we could talk about that if you want, what a rescue is versus sidewalk counseling and different things. But they pointed out to the, the officer that if they left their position there in the hallway, then that clinic was going to

open up and little baby boys and girls were going to die that day. And they didn't feel morally they could walk away from such a situation. And so that was, that's one element of the day. And like I said, the others were the sidewalk counselors and then the people in the hallway just to pray and to worship and just to lend spiritual support, you know, to the day as well. And which of those categories were you specifically? Yeah, I had sidewalk counseling teams there that I had trained. I was not doing the counseling specifically. I was interacting.

I was certainly praying and singing and participating in the worship aspect of it. And then primarily my role developed that day, just kind of serendipitously, is when I realized that the police didn't really understand what was going on. And, you know, think back, this was the time of BLM and TFA and all the violence going on. And my main concern was they're going to think we're some kind of a violent group and they're going to come against my sidewalk counselors and start, you know, being heavy-handed and dangerous and violent in response. And so I went to talk to them just to

assure them that we were a peaceful group. There was no violence, nobody was going to resist anything. That's how the conversation started with them and developed from there. You mentioned rescue, and there's a distinction between that in sidewalk counseling, so what is that distinction? Sure. So back in the late 80s, early 90s, attacked it developed from the church. And it was a multi-denominational effort and understanding of dealing with the dilemma of if you really believe these unborn children are humans and little boys and girls, then we should act like it. And what model do we have and how can we protect them and actually stand in the gap and actually do something rather than just talking about it? And what was developed is what's traditionally known as a sit-in in in America, right? All protest groups sit in and block something or they do, you know, no top.

protest the, whatever may be Greenpeace or the Jerusalem, Gaza stuff that's going on now, we see this happening. So it's just basically normal American sit-in protest type things, but with a spiritual additional element is that the main heart of that matter and the rescue movement that we saw rise in. And just, so don't forget, there were about 77,000 Christians arrested in America making the pro-life movement one of the largest, civil disobedient movements in the nation. But the spiritual element was not just, hey, we're here to physically block the doors and shut it down. It was, how do we respond in a Christ-like manner? And what do we see in the model of Christ is that he interposed between us and the one that was

coming to destroy our soul. He laid down his own life so that we might have life. And so that's what the church was trying to do, is to sit down at the door and say, look, I'm willing to go to I believe that baby that you're carrying is valuable enough as a human being that I'm willing to go to jail for the sake of you and that child. So the rescues slash sit-in, was you say? Were you doing the sit-in yourself personally? Back in the 90s, I did. But not in this. In this situation, not at all.

And just, man, just, my 11th child is three years old next month. and so she was due like five days after this event. I was very cautious of all the lines to say in, so I didn't want to be in jail and risk missing our 11th child being born. 11 children. What are the age ranges? From 29 down to three. You have multiples in there, twins?

No twins, all the hard way, all the old-fashioned way. One at a time. Grand Canyon University is a private Christian university located in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU believes that our creator has endowed us with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They believe in equal opportunities and that the America Dream is driven by purpose. GCU equips you to serve others in ways that promote human flourishing to create a ripple effect

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and at what point do they start arresting people? So they came in, you know, you had the first group that showed up, and, uh, and they came and talked. And like I said, I went back and talked with them, seeing that there were so many people, uh, they called in, you know, their procedures they follow, right? So if there's a large gathering in a protest or something, they have policies internally that they follow. So they called out the rest of the task force and whoever else was supposed to be there, including the negotiators. And so once the negotiators were on site, we had with us, one of the gentlemen that was leading the rescue aspect of it is a former Las Vegas police officer, Czech Gallagher, a great man, a man that loves God. He's been participating in

pro-life work is, you know, 30 years or so now. So he was going to speak to the police officers because of his background. He actually was confronted with this in his role as a police officer when they were doing a rescue in Las Vegas. And instead of arresting the Christians, basically, he gave up his job and participated with them. And he felt convicted that that was the right thing to do. As a police officer, he tried to report that there was a murder in progress.

You know, there's a life at danger here. We need to do something, and the higher command wasn't buying it. So he did the thing that he felt like he needed to do there. So he and I, since I had already talked with the police earlier, I went with him to just kind of ride his shirt-tel and listen to the conversation. Like I said, we both had kind of different interests there that day. Primarily one interest, obviously saving children, but different avenues of what we were planning on doing

and what our role was. And so we ended up talking with the negotiators and police officers. They had great conversations with some Christian civil magistrates and talked about Romans 13 and the role of the officers and all that.

So it was a good discussion with them. So through that process, though, we determined and let them know that not everybody was willing to be arrested, that some were waiting to be trespassed properly to leave, and that others were willing to risk arrest, and that they would not resist, that, you know, be peaceful.

And so we kind of negotiated and worked with the police through their processes to figure out how the arrest would be made and how that would go down. How many did they arrest that day, you know? We ended up with, I think it was eight adults and four children. And the children were actually arrested.

They were cited and released back to their parents. And the charge was trespassing? The charge was, yeah, criminal trespass. Typically a Class B misdemeanor, and those were dismissed at Wilson County. And why were you not arrested them? because I obeyed the police when they said it's time to leave I left all right so that was 2021 and that's as far as you know it's sort of the end of it at that point yeah yeah yeah we went

and we went to the jail and sang hymns and prayed for the people that were in jail through the weekend waiting to get processed out and you know they went back to the court day how long until it was dismissed um varies there because different one showed up at different times they didn't all have a mass trial like we did in the in the federal court um and then the and then the And then the federal government gets involved. In a big way, yeah. What, I guess at what, at what point did you know that the federal government was looking at your case? Yeah, so 715 on a Wednesday morning in October, when my house started rattling, and I heard the words,

open up FBI. And I don't know about the average American, but that's not something that's in my common thought process at any time in the day, let alone at 7.15 in the morning. So they showed up to arrest me, and we had a big, I mean, that's been, you know, covered a lot. But there was four armed guards, armed FBI agents in tactical gear, fully armed, long gun, sidearms, vest, everything. Three of my children were outside in the side yard. Like I said, they were about to go to school.

And so they were heading out to the car. And they were being held. I didn't know at the time, but they were being held out to the side by another agent, you know, with a long gun. and wouldn't let them come back into the house. And then, you know, processing everything that goes through one's heads in a situation like that. You had, prior to this, you didn't even hear any rumblings that the federal government was looking into this?

I tell you that, Matt, the only rumbling I heard was when they arrested Mark Halk in Pennsylvania, and I realized what a sham that was from what little bit I knew of it. I told my daughter, I think the week before, I said, you know, with stuff we've been involved in our whole life being out on the sidewalks and stuff, the day and age is coming to our country where they could come for us. And it was more of a warning to my children coming up in the culture they're going

to be living in and what's setting expectations. I had no idea how, you know, a week later that that would be true for us. How did your wife and kids react in the moment? Yeah, you know, my wife was awesome. I mean, she was sent to get a sweater for me and was cognitive enough to grab her phone, you know, quick enough to, on our feet to grab it and come back. And it's so funny, the attitude of those agents were cocky and arrogant. The guy was taunting my wife. She never got told what they were arresting before. I didn't get told until we were in the car and I was locked in the car.

So they're taunting her. She's asking, why are you arresting? And the agent literally is sitting there doing this little head bob. You want to know? You really want to know? And she came out with the camera and it's like, well, ma'am, I've been trying to tell you. I mean, day and night. And, you know, unfortunately, you don't have that own video.

But that was the attitude at least one of the agents had. And, you know, there's four of them. They're all different. They have different, you know, different lives to live and all that. What's going through your head in that moment? Yeah. Well, you know, when I pulled the curtains back and saw the guns pointed at me, the very first thing is the safety of my family.

and you go through all the scenarios, you know, if, you know, somebody showing up at your door that seeks to do harm to your family and what do you do and quickly process that it had to be politically motivated. I'm not, I mean, I'm a local business owner. I've been on the same farm for 15 years, on the same business for 11 years.

So I knew there wasn't anything violent or anything. It had to be political of some sort. And so I reasoned that the safest thing to do was just put myself in their hands and surrender myself for the sake of my family. And that was, you know, a thousand thoughts in about three milliseconds kind of processing. You said that only once you were in the car, they told you what you're being arrested for. What did they say? They, because I asked for a warrant at some point and under whose authority they're arrest to me or whatever.

And, you know, the cocky eyes point says a little Velcro badge says, this is all the identification you get, you know, kind of thing. But the, fortunately, I didn't ride back to Nashville with him. I rode with two of the other agents. And he said, you know, here's the warrant if you want to see it. And they pulled it up on a laptop. And of course, I didn't have my glasses or anything else. All I can see is face in bold letters. I'm like, okay, well, it's pro-life related. So at that point, at least in understanding that it was pro-life related, I still had no idea it was that particular event or anything. So I'm pretty naive. I thought that when you get arrested, they have to tell you why. Yeah. Is that not a thing? You know, when the guys have

guns and an attitude and don't want to tell you who's going to make them. And that's really what it comes down to. I guess I would throw it over to you, Stephen, you're Paul's lawyer, correct? And you're with the Thomas Moore Society? Correct. Just the process of getting arrested here, because I'm trying to understand the law. I know based on what I see in law and order, they give you a brand of rights, they tell you what you're being arrested for. Yeah. And that didn't happen here? You are entitled at some point. It doesn't have to be immediately when they're taking you into custody. The interesting thing here, man, is in the Markout case, for instance, which our firm handled,

we're in communications with the U.S. Attorney's Office saying we're happy to bring him in voluntarily, you know, let's do this civilly and so forth. This is the classic, nonviolent civil disobedience, right? Frankly, it never should have involved feds at all. This is clearly and purely a local matter. So in this case, you've got pro-life folks that were involved from all over the country. Different FBI offices handling the arrests. Paul is the only one subject to this SWAT team kind of thing.

So our inference is this was a decision made locally to really send the terrorism kind of message. Don't mess with the feds. So the Mark Halk case has come up a couple times just so the audience knows. He was a pro-life protester in Philadelphia. Philadelphia, I believe. And the case there, you got it to an altercation with an abortion worker arrested at the time, if I remember correctly. Charges are dropped. Correct. And then the Biden administration circles back to him. Yes. Just like they did here. But what do we make of that? You've got these cases that are thrown out locally. It's not a big deal. Right. And then what is the

Biden administration doing? Are they, are they combing through the books looking for pro-lifers? I think that's exactly what happens. Remember, this is 2021. Mark Hauk's incident also. Well before, the magic date in all of this is June 22 with the Dobbs decision overturning Roe against Wade. Biden and his administration, he issues executive orders. They form up a reproductive rights task force, comes to the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ and says, basically, war on pro-lifers. So they go back, combing through the records for these peaceful events that had occurred years before and swoop in, basically to make up a PR statement against pro-life activism.

The ostensible reason for the arrest when you were given it was you said the FACE Act. Correct. I guess I would ask you first, what is your understanding of what the FACE Act is? Sure, so FACE is, and the reason I knew that, because it's in bold letters, because it's the acronym for the Act, which is the freedom of access to clinic and And so back in the 90s, because these pro-life rescues were being successful, the federal government decided it needed a way to shut it down. And so basically what the FACE Act did is it took a Class B misdramine or local protest charge to a felony. First offense, six months in federal prison, second, a year or more.

Steve Zillan would know more of the details there. But that's, you know, I mean, that's basically what it was purpose. was and how it was designed. And Steve, my understanding of the FACE Act, supposedly doesn't it also, or isn't it supposed to also protect pro-life pregnancy centers? Yes. So as often happens in Congress,

they had to have some Republican support to get this thing through. Teddy Kennedy is shepherding it through in the Senate. And as they reach across the aisle, one of the bones they throw to the Republicans is, oh, well, we'll protect houses of worship and pro-life pregnancy centers, too. So it's like this tag-on provision in the FACE Act, but it was always about abortion. That's what led to, as Paul said, you know, that 77,000 Christians coming out and actually

engaging at the clinic entrances that led to the need for the feds so they thought to get involved in the first place. So it's really never been used. The Department of Justice doesn't have any kind of guidance on how to approach houses of worship issues and so forth. And as you are probably aware, Matt, since the Dobbs decision, and even after its argument, let alone its release in June, hundreds of churches, pro-life pregnancy centers have been firebombed, vandalized, you know, Molotov cocktails thrown in there, all this stuff. There have been a total of, I think, four arrests under that. Family Research Council just last week, released a report regarding acts of hostility

against churches and houses of... This is just the churches, not the pregnancy resource centers. 315 incidents in 2023 alone. Zero arrests. They're not interested in the churches and in the pro-life pregnancy centers. Has anyone been prosecuted under the FACE Act, as far as you know? Yes. Yes. When we started crying foul after these arrests, They went out and arrested a couple of folks in Florida, I believe it was.

So they have made a kind of paper effort at doing it. But what the classic response of Christopher Ray, the director of the FBI, was when asked about, why aren't you prosecuting these guys? He goes, oh, those incidents occur at night. We don't know how to find those people. It's impossible. We can't see them at us. I mean, you can't see him.

What are you going to do? Tell me about... So you get to trial, and what is that experience? Sure, well, I mean, first of all, we're on parole, basically, being, waiting on the trial. So we're reporting in every month, our salary, we can't move. I specifically can't travel out of the Central District of Tennessee, you know, got to call in and answer all the questions and just have permission to go anywhere, basically. So we're on parole the whole time leading up to the trial. linkly process getting to the trial.

And then we get in and we get to, you know, see to jury. And, you know, we have her pretrial the week before or whatever and get to the jury and get started on the trial. Did you feel, how did you feel going into the trial? Did you feel confident? Did you feel like the deck was stacked against you? You know, it was a strange feeling. I did not, and I think I even told Steve this from the beginning, I didn't feel like we'd see justice in the trial court just because,

of what little bit of knowledge I have of the judicial system and the rules of evidence and the political nature of the charges, I was hopeful, and there were things in the trial that led us to hope, you know, that maybe it's going a good direction. But I was not, you know, I was not shocked at the verdict, basically. How many total people was it? Well, so in the federal charges, there were seven of us that were charged with conspiracy and four that just had the misdemeanor face act. And so the conspiracy is the other piece of this we hadn't really got to yet.

The Conspiracy Act and Steve will have more of the technical legal details, but basically it's the KKK Act passed in the late 1800s that was used to stop people being violent against black people when they were trying to vote. And so they used this same conspiracy and said that it's a,

It's a conspiracy against rights secured by the Constitution or the laws of our nation. And so literally the rights that are secured now that Dobbs has fallen is the rights found in the FACE Act, which is the right to access a, quote, reproductive health center or abortion. Steve, what can you tell us about conspiracy against rights? Yeah. Look, as Paul said, Matt, this is a statute passed with one specific intent after the reconstruction period. So it was never really used outside of that actual constitutional right setting until this whiz kid who tried a face case in Washington, D.C., Sanjay Patel, wrote an article in 2022 for the Department of Justice, and he said, hey, here's this statute. Maybe we can use in this context with face, too. So face was passed in 1994 until 2022.

This actually no conspiracy charge was ever attached to a face case, certainly never a felony conspiracy. So the way it is, we've got a first defense face violation, maximum six months in prison. Conspiracy here, this conspiracy against rights brings 10 years. So this is piling on. It's in a never-before-used context. And it's against, ironically enough, civil rights, a conspiracy against the right statute that's used to punish civil rights in the peaceful civil disobedience of Christians. Also, just from a technical legal perspective here, didn't the Supreme Court just find that you don't have a constitutional right to abortion in the first place? So how can this be a...

Okay. How do they explain it? How can this be a conspiracy against rights that the Constitution? I mean, really, aren't we through the looking class in a way here? So this clinic is no longer in existence. Abortion in the state of Tennessee, as we sit here today, is itself a felony. So what these folks were doing in 2021, they should be rewarded for today, right, if these practices were going on. But it isn't until Tennessee enacts or the trigger law goes into effect and abortion becomes a felony year that they ever bring these charges.

We have argued, so we're blue in the face with the trial judge and we will argue on appeal that just as you said, Matt, Abortion is no longer a recognized federal constitutional right. The only right that they're hanging this by is a very, very thin thread of access to reproductive health services. So the right to go in and get an ultrasound is what they're claiming is the federal right that gives some kind of status, jurisdiction for bringing these felony charges. Is that a recognized federal right? It is. It's in the FACE Act. Here's what happens, okay?

93, they introduce Face, and they just say outright, it's abortion services we're talking about. But as it works its way through and the clever lawyers work it over, they go, no, let's not call it abortion rights. Let's call them reproductive health services, because it just sounds nicer. It's a nice euphemism. So it includes termination of pregnancy, but it also includes these birth control and so forth rights. So there is, as we sit here, because the FACE Act has not been repealed, on the books a right to access reproductive health services other than abortion. But of course, no one in the history of the United States, I think, has ever protested the right to access ultrasound. It's always been about abortion. So it's, you know, it's a fig leaf

is really what they've got here with the reproductive health services language. And how do they, in your specific case, given that you weren't even arrested at the time by the police, how did they deal with that? How did they explain that? Did they? Yeah, so we had one defendant that turned state's evidence on us. I said there were seven, so there was only six in the trial, and she cut a deal, and she gave all kinds of wonderful testimony about how one of the roles of the rescuers, those blocking and committing face violations, was to have a police distraction, and that that was my role. Now, this person testified in the courtroom.

She didn't know me before the day of the event. She initially thought I was a police officer or a chaplain, and yet her testimony against me is what they had. That and along with a picture of me standing in the hallway against the wall, not a door, you know, working on my phone while people were talking, one of our sidewalk crew was talking to a client there. Do we know what kind of deal she got for that? Not yet. She goes to sentencing in April, I believe.

And your sentencing is when? July 2nd. Okay, and it's already been stated you've technically face up to 10 years in prison? Ten and a half, so six months for the face and ten years max for the conspiracy. Maybe you don't want to speculate, but do you, well, what do you think is going to happen? No idea. And I think that's, you know, it's in the judge's hands. The judge has full discretion to do this, and then there's a secondary piece of that,

the judge officer can decide whether I stay out of jail while we appeal or whether I go to jail during the appeal. And so that's completely in her hands. And, you know, I know this as a Christian. God says the heart of the king is in his hands and he will do what he wills. And I'm willing to abide by whatever he does because he's writing the story. And if that story takes me to jail for a time for his benefit and his glory, and that's part of the story. I'm content to submit to that. I hope it's not. My family hopes it's not, right? We'd love to actually see justice in a court of the Department of Justice, but we're just waiting to see. How are you feeling in the run-up to the sentence? If I was in your shoes, I would be just overcome with rage all the time, I think,

at how ridiculously unjust this is. And also the fact that everybody involved in this prosecution must know how ridiculous this is, from the FBI agents who arrested you all the way up to everybody. Sure. And sort of knowing what a farce this is and everyone's going along with it would make me just boiling with rage all the time. You don't seem like you're boiling with rage to your credit, but what... Sure. I mean, you know, you certainly get upset

because one of the attributes of God is justice, and you want to see justice. It's natural for us to desire that. But I also know that the God works through injustice to make changes. And through this, and I'll just say this, it's not me. God's grace arises to the occasion. And that's what I would always tell the sidewalk counseling team.

If you want to see God move and see an abundance of grace, put yourself at risk, step out on a sidewalk and engage in a, you know, in a conversation that might be uncomfortable for you and allow God to use you and work. And so I'm getting tested on that, I guess, Matt, is the big picture here, is, you know, we have,

He's allowed us to see our national character through this case, I think. There are at least three different stopgaps in the system, as you mentioned. The FBI agent could have certainly done a better job and a more personal, professional job at making the arrest or refusing that order if they had the details. The judge could have refused to allow it in her courtroom. She's one of the constitutional stopgaps that we have for justice, if somebody's bringing in a false charge and a ridiculous trial, then the judge has the ability to say no.

And certainly the prosecution that was charged with bringing the case by their superiors could have said, no, I'm not doing this. And then we come down to the 150 jury panel that we selected our jurors from, and we got to interview them and talk about their character and where they stand. And I think what we see is a, you know, it's been said that in order to, maintain freedom, it's a labor, you have to work at it. And I think what we see in our national character is, A, we are a nation of convenience, not convictions, and we don't do the hard work that it takes to maintain liberty and freedom,

like knowing what a jury's duties are, like understanding right from wrong and good and evil. And so that's part of the challenge we have. And I think if God wants to tell that story and show that to us and allow us to have that conversation publicly and it puts me at risk a little bit. I'm thankful for the opportunity to have the conversation. What do you think this tells us about the future of America, your experience? Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's a lot at stake. And I, you know, we, Steve and I've done a few interviews. We talk a lot about this and, you know, there's, there's a spiritual and material aspect, right? The courtroom, you know, is, is, the battle is raging. There are physical things

we do and writings and documents and filings and all those things, but there's also a spiritual battle. And, you know, I think it's relevant that we're in the season of Lent for the church right now. And that as a nation, we have a cultural awareness, a cultural character, and we have the opportunity right now, as this battle is raging, we have row overturned, and there's great conflict, if you will, in our nation. And we're seeing the dividing line being made clear. We call it left and right, Republicans, Democrats, good, evil, right, there's all the, you can call it whatever you want. But the end of the day, it's really a question about who do we as an individual will follow. Do we order our life after the God who created us, or do we order our life after

the gods of this world? Are we more interested in money and greed and power, convenience, personal peace and affluence? Are we more concerned about making and understanding even a cultural sacrificial element of our being that as we sacrifice for others, our culture is enriched, our culture grows. But we're at a point where we need to make that decision. as a people and we need to rightly discern and be willing to make a difference and to step into that gap and put ourselves at risk and make sacrifices for the sake of others and for the sake of our children and the next generation or it ultimately we know it will turn out well right i'm an optimist i know god is is ruling and reigning but if you look at church history sometimes the way

he makes changes is through persecution against the church and so that's that's what we have to understand and we can either sacrifice willingly and give of our own time and enter into a fasting and a prayer time and physically going out and doing things that will help our culture or we can sit back and do nothing and those opportunities will come for us. What do you make on the fact that you mentioned the BLM protests and as plenty of conservatives have pointed out they're throwing the book and then another book and all the books at you right now. And meanwhile, you know, there were people that literally burned down police stations in the middle of major metropolitan areas and did not face 10 years in prison for it. What do you make of that?

Sure. I think it's part of the story. I think that allows us to see who's where. What judge didn't lock them up? What judge gave them a pat on the back said, good job. You're doing good work. I mean, as this, as things begin to bubble to the surface, they're overflowing into the the courts and into the medium, we're able to see things for what they are. And to me, I think it's an important part. I think it's a grace even to allow us to be able to discern where things are in our nation, to be able to understand that there is an agenda. And you can say it's spiritual or you can say it's Bidenomics or, you know, the Biden mafia or whatever, you know, or Soros or pick your bad guy of the week. But I think those things help paint the picture.

when you got Christians being persecuted and being risking a decade in jail for talking to a mom in a hallway or talking to a police officer in a hallway, and you got people throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails in federal buildings that are getting out without any charges, it's really hard to close your eyes and deny what's going on spiritually in that environment. Mike, can I throw in that context just from the legal side? It's just so clear, isn't it, that we are now in a day when we have, have a two-tier justice system in America, right? If you're a friend of the administration, if you're BLM, Antifa, you're supporting Hamas

and attacking the White House gates and whatever, no charges. If you're President Biden and you have committed egregious crimes, well, you know, he's just a kindly old man who just forgets. We don't need to bring charges. But if you're on the wrong political side or the wrong spiritual side, all of a sudden, as you say, it's not even one book, it's multiple books. We look a whole lot more.

like a banana republic than a constitutional republic that was the envy of the world, don't we? And so from my perspective, there's a sense here, as Paul said, we're at a crossroads. And the very foundations of our republic seem to me to be shaken. And there are big cracks in our foundation. And in the context of abortion in particular, a picture that comes to my mind is it's like one of those monsters from a grade B horror flick that has suffered a mortal blow. but it's not quite dead yet. It's thrashing about

and just trying to destroy and inflict maximum harm to anyone and everyone in its path right now. So there's a lot of work to be done and maybe even to kind of salvage our republic. But we are no longer a nation of laws and not of men.

We're a nation of men and not of laws. I mean, I don't see how you can deny the discrepancy in the enforcement of the law now. Couldn't you argue that, I mean, if we're talking about the conspiracies against rights. Couldn't you argue that putting a federal courthouse under siege for weeks at a time is a conspiracy against rights? Or even even looting or burning down a, you know, a drug store is what about your right to access? Yes. Medical care. Think about this, all right?

We sit in Nashville. Downtown Nashville is littered with monuments to the civil rights movement of the early 60s, right? Streets are named for these heroes. The museums sit right downtown. The public library, which is across the street from the courthouse. Huge display honoring these folks who courageously disobeyed the law by conducting citizens. So here you are, you know, in this, again, just weird through the looking glass moment where these guys are heroes,

you all are the villains who must be locked up and the key thrown away, you know? So every single civil rights movement of our entire history could have been labeled a conspiracy when you go there. But we never brought those charges because we respected that foundational right that really undergirds the entire First Amendment until today. Are you aware of a case, I don't know if you can answer this or not, but are you aware of a case in the last few years

of a left-wing protester who engaged in any sort of civil or maybe not so civil disobedience, who was targeted as harshly as any one of these pro-lifers? Yes, one. It's those two that I mentioned in Florida charged under face. And again, it was a token prosecution. And I think their sentence, I haven't followed this up, was very light anyway. But they threw the charge in there to, in order to protect against, which we have argued here, selective prosecution. You don't ever bring these charges against leftists.

Oh, no, we've done it once. So you can't say that now. And that would have been a misdemeanor charge? Well, they threw in the conspiracy felony charge. I don't, as I say, think that they were sentenced very harshly at the end of the day. They just pled guilty and got out with a wrist slap. But, yeah. I'm curious what the response has been, from your perspective,

among sort of conservatives in general, because from my perspective, on the outside, I would like to see conservatives much more engaged in this issue, and much more concerned about your plight and the plight of the other pro-lifers that are being targeted than they seem to be. What's your perspective? You know, we're getting a lot of support,

and there's some great people out there. We had just phenomenal support throughout the trial, the prayer team, several hundred people praying daily throughout the days of the trial and fasting for it and stuff. So there is, you know, good support for it. I think people are at a loss to know what to do. Because, I mean, people ask me even yesterday, what can we do to support you? I'm like, I have no idea.

Pray, that's about all I know. We're waiting and we're just trying to work and be a family and do what we're supposed to do between now and then. But I think there are elements, there are things that we can do. And I think we see this growing. There is an act in Congress and the Senate to repeal the face. Chip Roy, as put it forward. Who did the?

Mike Lee. Mike Lee is co-sponsored in the other house. And so we can certainly call them and try to get traction on getting that repealed. But, you know, there's another piece of this, Matt, too, in the pro-life battle specifically in getting involved in that, is we're seeing a shift. I mean, Dobbs is great, and people are touting the babies that have been saved. And that's a good thing. But there's also an element kind of going back to the heart of the nation.

And if we don't win the conscience and the pro-life battle, not just on the streets, but in the laws, but actually in the hearts of the culture, what we're seeing is care of them, their mother company, mothership or whatever, also sells chemical abortion packets. Their numbers they posted for last year, they sent out 6.1 million abortion packets.

Now, 50 million babies under Roe is about a million babies a year. So that's 6x what we had under Roe as far as surgical and clinic abortions. So the battle's still raging, and we need to understand, like I said, we need to reach the heart of the culture. We need to understand that it is spiritual. And if we don't change the heart, then the laws, you know, at the end of the day, won't ultimately matter. The laws typically follow the conscience in the culture.

And with the chemical abortions, are these pills still being sent into the states where it's been outlawed? They are. Matter of fact, I had conversations this week with reporters that are talking about that. And I know people where they've shown up here in Tennessee where it's illegal, where they've ordered it and received it. And they get the instructions on how to use it, even though it's against the Tennessee law. That's what I was going to ask, is this some sort of loophole where these bands still somehow, inadvertently allow for the chemical abortions, or are they just defying the law? I think they're defying the law, Matt. We are, again, coming to a point where,

much like pre-Civil War, I mean, we are, what unites America, right? How are we the United States anymore? When you have states like Tennessee that are committed to protecting life at all stages and prohibiting the introduction of drugs that will take that life away, then you have the Biden administration that will, and a lot of major corporations that will pay for you to go out of state to get your surgical abortion, and they're utterly, brazenly disregarding the laws that prohibit importation of those drugs. And that's very hard to police, obviously, coming in, you know, in an anonymous package. How do you know? Unless you've got federal folks at the post office opening every package that comes into your door, we probably have that for pro-lifers,

but they're not going to do that for the other side of the political law. And may I tag along to what Paul was saying, too, about what can we do? Isn't there a sense in which middle America, I'll call them, for lack of a better term, has sort of been cowed into fear of speaking out. I mean, you're a great example of one who will stand up against the voices of the day and the elites and actually take that courageous stand. But most of us just want to be left alone, right, to lead the quiet and peaceable life that Scripture talks about. We just aren't permitted to do that anymore if we're going to be people with any real convictions. If we don't stand up and speak out. How can we complain when they take away the rest of our rights? You know, one of the

core principles in the FACE Act is to protect against intimidation of those seeking these reproductive health services. But the fact of the matter is these prosecutions are intended, calculated, to intimidate the rest of us from taking a courageous stand on the life issue. We just can't put up with it anymore. But you're talking about the pro-life movement as a whole. Now you mentioned the six-sex increase arguably in abortions. To me, that paints a pretty grim view of things and of the state of the pro-life movement after Dobbs. Is it as bad as all that from your perspective? I think there's kind of two aspects to it. We are seeing victories on the gruesome and violent

acts of the surgical abortions. You see this in the deep. case with San Angelo's clinic where the, you know, there's five babies right now that are in legal pinball between the Congress and the D.C. Police Department of what to do with these remains they found from this clinic. So thankfully, those type things are coming down, right? We're seeing a much less gruesome activity. But again, the heart of the nation. I think the shift, Matt, is that we're moving. We continue to focus on pro-life and abortion, and really the ultimate goal is more about population control and more about a mindset of we can't trust God with these things. We have to trust our fill in the blank, whoever it is we're supposed to trust this week.

And I think that is going to be, you know, that's the battlefront we need to understand and discern and then figure out how to address that. You said people ask what they can do to help. You gave a few sort of general things, some good advice there, but is there anything people could do to help you specifically? Well, I mean, Thomas Moore is handling the appeal. They're going to be with me all the way the Supreme Court, if needed, and we'll continue fighting this,

because in the real tangible material world, the FACE Act needs to be repealed, and we need to hold them accountable. I am hopeful once this suit is over to file, counter suit and to go after them for wrong for prosecution and all the things that would come with that obviously not left to be able to determine exactly what we can do for that um the matt you know i'd like to say this if i can just segue off that there are people in prison right now from the dc case there's a handful of folks that are been locked up they've been found guilty

but they haven't been sentenced yet and they're they're in jail since last august um august and september And they're in there today. And if I could give, there's a free Heather Idoni, IDO-N-I.com, is one of the, one of the, she's a co-defendant in our case. She was also in the D.C. rescue. And you can find information, you know, about them. And I would say, you know, pray for these people. There are sites out there where you can write letters to them and encourage them.

They're already locked up. I mean, I'm still free. I'm limited. I'm still on parole and pretrial or, or whatever it is now. I don't know whichever segment of the parole office I'm in, but I'm still, you know, still have limitations, but I'm not locked up like they are.

And so we need to be praying for them and seeking justice for them as well. May I tag on to that too, Matt? Paul's too modest to mention, but I mean, if he is incarcerated, obviously the income dries up for his wife and children. Only seven or so at home now. So maybe it's not a big deal.

That's one. But another, as Paul said, you know, if it's the Lord's will to put them behind bars, then so be it. Heather Idoni, while incarcerated here in Tennessee, has had the opportunity to minister. I'm not making this up to cannibals in prison. She is sharing the gospel with these folks who come from,

Lord knows where, but really violent pasts. And as Paul said, you know, there's no better place than to be in the center of God's will, even when you're facing great risk. So it's dire, but the Lord still uses these things, I mean, in extraordinary ways. And no matter what happens at sentencing, then the fight continues, it sounds like. Absolutely. Continues all the way to the Supreme Court, if need be.

We'll keep fighting until God takes us out of the fight. Well, I appreciate you sitting down with us, and the incredible courage that you've displayed. I wish that we had 50 million more, Paul Vaughn's out there. But thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you, Matt. We appreciate the opportunity.