The McShay Show - Day Five From the Combine: Kenyon Sadiq, Eli Stowers, Dillon Thieneman, and more

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

Welcome to The McShay Show! Todd and Muench react to Kenyon Sadiq, Eli Stowers, Dillon Thieneman and the biggest standouts from the CB, DS, and TE class measurables and combine performances. Then, they’re joined by Chargers GM Joe Hortiz, who discusses drafting around Justin Herbert’s development, his path to becoming an NFL executive, and more.0:00 Welcome to The McShay Show!2:20 NFL Combine coverage: day five3:05 Kenyon Sadiq and Eli Stowers' record breaking performances17:30 Evaluating the combine TE Class22:45 Reacting to Caleb Downs' measurables and performance25:55 Evaluating the combine safety prospects38:55 Evaluating the combine CB Class54:55 Chargers GM Joe Hortiz joins the show55:25 Joe's journey to becoming an NFL executive1:02:20 Joe and the Chargers' draft strategy1:12:20 Drafting around Justin Herbert1:16:20 Relationship working with the Harbaugh brothersLearn more and join waitlist at ScoutMotors.comThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.Host: Todd McShayGuests: Steve Muench and Joe HortizProducers: Tucker Tashjian, Conor Nevins, and Daniel ComerSocial: Abou Kamara Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Either the electronic timers and measurement sticks are broken, or we've got a better NFL draft class on our hands than anyone seems to think. Day two of workouts at the NFL scouting combine with the defensive backs and tight ends are in the books, and we're going to review all of it. And just 55 days until the NFL draft, I hesitate to ask. Ment you good? I'm a mess, but I'm stoked. All right, Tucker, roll that beat, please.

What is going on, man? This is kind of the sandwich class, right? Between last year's good one and the 2024, great one, and next year's all-time class. It's supposed to be just okay. We'll get a few players, get out of here and get ready for 27. Right. So why are we breaking records every single time I turn around?

Man, we're excited about this new partnership. This episode is presented by Scout Motors. Every new year, we do a lot of forward thinking and planning for what's to come. Just like the all-new Scout Terra and Scout Trout. They're being revamped for what comes next, taking that classic 70s design and improving it with modern engineering, including plans for advanced four-wheel drive. So look ahead. Join the wait list at scout motors.com, just like I just did. Concept vehicles not available for sale, features and performance specifications are preliminary and subject to change. Joining the wait list does not guarantee purchase. Visit scout motors.com for details.

I don't know what to tell you, man. I really don't know what to tell you. It's the fastest defensive line class. The fastest defensive back group. The fastest most explosive linebacker class. And now we've got a tight end group that we're breaking records. Vertical jumps, broad jumps, 40 times. It's been awesome to watch.

Yeah. I mean, Stanford, Steve, Texas last night was like, he was the over-under on Stowers was 40 inches. I mean, I thought I was like 40 inches, man. be a great number to hit. All right, let's get into it because there were some, the, the cornerback class was pretty good. A lot of the top guys did not run, but we had some good results, and I thought some really cool on the field stuff. It's been a fun week, man. I mean, Mackay Lemon is going viral. He's an interesting cat. What do we got there? Oh, yeah, the shrimp cocktail, which fooled me

once. You know, Wyman and Joe Douglas and Elio and Bernoni and those guys? I didn't know the whole deal. into St. Elmo's. And they said, you've got to take a scoop with the best cocktail sauce we've ever had. I did it, and it wrecked me for like 30 years. I know it's coming now,

and it still gets me. It's still that, like, there's a second of, that's breath away, yeah. What also took my breath away was watching Kenyon Sadiq run a 439 40-yard dash. And watching, you know,

the coolest part was watching Kenyon Sadiq break the record for the, was the vertical jump with 43 and a half. and a half inches. And then a couple guys later, it's Eli Stowers, the Vanderbilt Tide end,

breaks the record, breaks his record, with a 45 and a half. 45 and a half inches, man, that's insane. When Sunny Stiles yesterday jumped to 43 and a half, I said,

I knew this guy was freakish and I knew he was going to do something special. To see Eli Stowers, who I knew was going to have a great workout, I even ran into his, his agent group today in the hotel lobby. And he's going to do some special stuff.

I'm like, I know. We've heard. Like, everyone's telling me this. Yeah. But I didn't know to this level, truly. So let's break it down. Let's start at the top of this tight end group, which is just okay. I mean, last year we had two first rounders, right?

We had Tyler Warren. Surprisingly was the second off the board after Colston Loveland was selected a few picks earlier by the Chicago Bears. And then all of a sudden, the first. what, 15 picks, we got two tight ends off the board. And we saw a bunch of tight ends go. This year's group, it's like Kenyon Sadiq, no question about it. Oregon tight end is a first rounder.

Eli Stowers is kind of next up. He and Max Clare, different cats, right? Stowers is talked about, by the way, by NFL people that I've been talking to this week and a little whispers about it, the senior bowl. Maybe like a slot receiver you flex around. Like legitimately a slot receiver, like in the receiver room. where Max Clare is your prototypical, Purdue, Ohio State, you know, six, four and change. What did he check in at it? Whatever it is. You know, 250 pounds right around that range and can block in line, but also has some athletic traits and can catch the ball.

What I don't think anyone was prepared for was to see these two guys, Sadiq and Stowers, work out as well. We knew they would work out well, not as well. I want to give some perspective, okay? Stowers comes in. So just so people understand, they do the jumping first, the vertical jump and the broad jump before they do the 40-yard dashes, okay? So Stowers comes in, as I mentioned, after Sadiq has his great 43-5-inch vertical jump, which was the tight end record at the combine when he did it. then and their names are right back you know

it's a Sadeek with an A Stowers with a T after the S's I think Bauer Sharp had to go in between Bauer Sharp had to go in between Bauer's sharp that poor son of a gun man Imagine being

oh man But anyway So Stowers comes up and he jumps 45 and a half And if you get to watch the video of it It's almost like he does this Jordan thing At the very top of his jump where it's like I need one more

Yeah you know And so he hits that The brand man in Oregon That is a common The combine record for tight ends, and it is the highest vertical jump of any player at the combine since 2006. It's 20 years, bro. That's two decades, and it's a tight end. Yeah.

You know what I mean? 240-pound man getting up like that. I told you I was there for the Vernon Davis workout, and I thought I'd never see anything like it. And I don't know that I've ever seen a physique. I don't like talking about men's bodies. And sometimes in this, like it becomes the underwear Olympics. And it's like, oh, he's so body beautiful. And it's like, it kind of crosses the line sometimes.

I'm not going there. But I think we all can recognize when you see a Greek god. And Vernon Davis was a Greek guy. He was like 250 plus, too. I think he was weird to watch what he was able to do, right? But he comes out today. Stowers does. Who's this like F-tight end and was really productive.

And by the way, let's talk to you about Stowers. Stowers is a former quarterback who's an unbelievable sense of like getting open for his quarterback, finding soft spots in zones, all right? He's also a, the academic heisman, the Campbell Award winner, one of the smartest cats in the world. Then you and I bring on Scott Goldman from AIQ, which does the intelligence testing, the only NFL, NFL registered and approved NFL testing group for the intelligence. And it's beyond just like, yeah, he's wicked smart, man.

No, it's like, it's reaction skills and they do, kind of explain it as like candy crush and all that. And so when I met with Scott Goldman and Eli is one of his kind of partners and coworkers there, and we had this long conversation, I said, give me some guys that really stand out that will approve, their agents will approve you using it on our show. And so he came on with four names. And Arvel Reese was one of them. And the next guy up was Stowers. Yep.

So this guy has unbelievable spatial awareness. So now we're talking about brain, kind of the character, the leadership, former quarterback. Production? I mean, he's a very productive. Highly productive player in the SEC. And then he goes out and works out. And listen, he's undersized, but it's not, like, grossly undersized. He's 6.36, which means he's almost 6'4. He's just about 240 pounds.

He's got 32 and 5'8 inch arm length, which, just to give perspective, on that 33-inch arms is the average for NFL tight ends. So, like, he's in the range. And then he goes and has the 45-5-inch vertical jump. And you see the frame. Some guys look like they're maxed out. He doesn't look like he's maxed out. I mean, 245, they don't think is out of the question for him.

People were saying, you know, he could be this year's Harold Fanon. It's interesting. I see Evan Ingram. And I know he didn't run as well as Evan Ingram. He's just so much more explosive than family. Yeah. And I love Harold Fanon. Yeah.

And he's a great rookie year. Great rookie year. And it's funny because the time was, I think, Ingram ran a 4-4-2, and Starras ran a 4-5-1. I think that's right. So the times don't match up. But, man, when I watch them on tape,

I see Evan Ingram when I watch tape. Yeah, but this guy to me is a little bit, like, the spatial, I see the spatial awareness and, like, getting open. I think it's not just like the traits in the way of the moves. So anyway. No, Evan Ingram is a great receiver, man. That's what I'm seeing.

But go ahead. So then Kenyon Sadiq from Oregon, who's the number one tight end in the class, projected top 20 pick, right? He goes and they're like, all right, fine, you got me in the vertical by two inches. Let's go to the broad jump. I'm going to do an 11 foot, which is sensational. The average five years on the broad jumps, just so people get some context here, is nine feet, nine inches.

He rips off 11 feet. Got to feel pretty safe about that one, right? Two players later. Stowers pops up. He goes 113. Anything you can do, I can do better, right? Like, insane. Yeah.

So finally, Sadiq gets his moment. We go run the 40. And Sadiq runs a 4-4-flat, unofficial. Stowers runs a 451, which is still absurd, right? Right. The average for a 40-yard dash is a 474 by tight ends. Yeah. So a 451 is sensational, but it's finally like,

There's no catching me. And they both basically run identical times the next time up unofficial. And then it comes out that, similar to last night, with Sunny Stiles and Arvel Reese running the four, what was it, a four, four. I think it was a four-four-seven. They got to a four-four-six. Yeah. His number went from a four-f40 to a four-three-nine. And just so people understand that and get some perspective, that is the fastest,

40 time at the combine ever run by a tight end. You know what's interesting? I wanted to give one more thing in context, okay? I just read this. This is insane. Remember Jemir Gibbs? Yeah. Oh, no.

I saw us know. It's insane. I remember going into Nick Sabin's office and then talking to me about, like, you know, the miles per hour on this guy's unbelievable. Jemir Gibbs is like, like, you have no idea how fast he can, he heats it up and like what top speed he can get to in practice. he's hitting numbers and we've had all these unbelievable wide receivers. You know, the Julio Jones is the, all the, like the Jerry Judy's and the, and the rugs and the, and the, DeVante Smith and all those guys.

Gibbs hit 23.2 miles per hour running his 40-yard dash at the combine, right? Kenyon Sadiq hit 23.2 miles per hour at the combine. You know the difference? Gibbs was 190 pounds. Sadiq 241. It's not normal what we're seeing. And I joked about the fact that

maybe the electronic times are off, maybe the measurement sticks are broken, but we all know that's not the case. Like this is the most tightly run ship you've ever seen. And maybe we'll come back later and someone will start a rumor. I'm sure. You know that's coming. Right. But the bottom line is

these guys are doing, and we haven't even gotten to what the safeties did off of the night we had. Today was like a hangover. I got Mench in bed half the day. The poor guy shouldn't have done this show last night. Everyone's yelling at him. Everyone on social media is yelling at me, because you better take care of Munch. It wasn't fair what you did. Steve Cockland's

giving you motivational speeches this morning. I mean, I'm on... I've been so... I got to text them back. But in writing, though, you haven't had me in bed for half the day. I've been in bed half the day. Wording. Uh-huh. Worried? What? You said that you had me in bed for half the day. Well, yeah, bad wording.

If that's what came out of my mouth, it was terrible word. Terrible wording. Can you talk about Sadiq for a second? Go. All right, thank you. First tight end off the board if he works out here. If he doesn't work out here, is he the first tight end off the board? Yes.

Comes out and still puts on a show, and it's interesting to me that he's probably helped himself. There's probably more teams earlier in the draft now saying, I know he's a tight-in I know I think he helped himself a lot but I love the competitiveness I love that this dude was gonna be the first and we've seen it again Arvel Reese

Sonny Stiles those guys are going early man didn't even have to come out here and do that Let me tell you a story about Sadieck that I mentioned earlier in this season People don't want to admit it And there were scouts that kind of came out of that building We're kind of shaking their head Like this guy's so talented

What's going on seems like even the people in the building Are getting frustrated with Kenyon And they were and I I talked to people who were friends of mine who were on the scouting trail, and they're like, yeah, I don't know. It just seems like they're frustrated. And the general sense I got, and there were quotes in there, and I'm not going to give away the exact quotes because it might give away the person who said it, was that, man, we love the guy when he was the number two tight end. We love the way he worked. He showed up.

But now he's the number one guy. It's not the same. And we're trying to kind of push that, right? And that got to me, and I made a comment. and then literally there was a letter sent out to all scouts, I guess, in the league. There would come through Oregon, and people were pissed off. But I noticed within the next two weeks, like, this spark was lit, right? And it seems like sometimes in life it takes, like, motivation.

It takes maybe like, hey, words getting out that I'm not doing what I need to do. It takes something smacking you in the face to realize, man, I've got so much going for me. I better not blow this, right? And I got to refocus. And you could see in the second half of the season, the fire in his game and finding ways to get down the field, the extended catches, some of the blocks. And from that point on, like somewhere mid-October, I want to say,

he became the threat and the weapon, and he's never turned back. And now, as you're saying, he comes here and he competes his tail off in the combine, and he doesn't need to. there were like nine cornerbacks that needed to work out a hell of a lot more than Kenyon Sadiq did. Tight ends, but yeah. No, no, I'm saying the cornerbacks earlier in the night.

Oh, I got you. And there were a couple tight ends that were like really why, but they're probably protecting their number and trying to get it right for their pro day. But I mean, like, there were high-ranked guys in the first second round at cornerback and at safety, but more so at cornerback that needed to work out a lot more than Kenyon Sadiq did. And he came out and he worked out the way he did and competed like toe for toe with this Eli Stowers guy that turns out to be even more of a physical phenom than we ever thought. So it was a special night for those two guys.

Yeah, you know what's interesting about that? And again, I'm going to go back to the Decision Maker series really quickly, is that when we talked to Dan Morgan about finding out whether a guy is the right kind of guy and the right kind of fit, and I was looking for an interview question. I was looking like, how do you find out an interview? He was like, no, if everything matches up, is he the dog in everything that he does?

When you throw in the tape, is he a dog? When he shows at the combine, is he a dog? And it's that kind of a thing, man. You can say whatever you want about you're going to be this great. You love football. You love the game. I'm going to show up every day. But do you show up and compete when it matters?

To me, again, it's fascinating. It's not dissimilar from life. Like, if someone walks in the room and you've gotten a lot of information on that person, you're looking to either stamp it. Right. You have a preconceived notion of what the guy is. And it's not like, it's not, oh, I heard it through my friends or someone, a coworker worked with him somewhere else. That tape don't lie, right?

Yeah. And so Dan Morgan's right. So when he walks in the room, he's looking like, is there something he's going to say that's going to solidify the fact that I think he's kind of, he's kind of dogs that he's not, you know, or is he going to have the behavior of what I see on tape? So let's stick with a tight end. for a minute. Honestly, the rest of the group was, was, it got so overshadowed by these numbers. I thought it was pretty good. It's worth noting that Max Clare from Ohio State, widely regarded as the third tight end in this class, did not work out. But he checked in, I mentioned his numbers before, six, four and three-eighths, two hundred and forty-six pounds, but, but didn't work out here.

Michael Triggs, another one of those guys, might be the most talented cat in this draft at the tight-end position. But there's some stuff that, like, is preventing teams from going all in. But his length, 84 and 3-8s wing span is wild. It's 6-0, almost 6-4, 240 pounds. But he'll have to work out at Baylor. He chose not to work out here. Yep.

Kind of, you know. Yeah. Right? Right. Dan Morgan, what you were just talking about. Yeah, if you're that good, just go out and, like, dude, your number's going to be similar there as it is here. Like, just go and compete.

Two other guys that I wanted to note. Jaron Kanek, we were first to market on, and I feel really good about that. The Oklahoma tight end, we were telling the story back in September about, this is a young man who played linebacker for three years at Oklahoma, desperately a team guy wanted to find a way to contribute, right? I called my guy Nagy after I saw him kind of flashed a couple times on tape. And Jim Nagy, who was the former executive director of the Senior Bowl. I worked with him my very first job out of college.

We're in the same tiny office with Gary Horton, who's not the smallest man in the world. There's a one-man office, and three of us were squished in there, so I got to know Jim really well early on. But Jim tells me, man, you love this guy. Metallica, like, ripped shirt every day. First guy in, loves the game. Like, we'll do anything, special teams, all the little things. He's, like, he's undersized, but he works. And I think he's going to work out pretty well.

But, like, we just love him. And he came into the coach's office and asked the coach, is, like, how can I contribute? Do you mind if I move over to tight end? I'll play special teams, but I'm just not getting up. Think about the linebackers they have there, right? Yeah. And so they're like, okay, we'll give you a shot. And if it works out in fall camp, we'll let you stick with it.

And all of a sudden, he becomes a real productive part of their offense. Yeah. And so Kanek shows up here today, and there's kind of some buzz on the internet and all that. And I thought he worked out really well. He is small by tight-end standard. He's 2.3.4. He's got short arms, all that stuff. but he ran a 4-5-2.

There was a fourth fastest, and they take those two superhumans out of this thing, and it would have been the second fastest in the kind of a normal year, second or third fastest, right? And they had 36-inch vertical, 9-11 broad, both are very good results. So I was excited to see that from Kahnick, who's going to be a day three pick, but I think is one of the most interesting, fun stories

in this year's draft class. Yeah, and I think that, look, I have this theory that we know that NFL head coaches are going to be. getting younger. And I think that coaches are adapting their offenses and defenses to player skill sets. And when you have a guy like this who's played linebacker before and he's got these traits and he's productive and that people love him in the locker room, I think that you find a way to use him. I don't think it's the old days where we're like,

we're looking for a number two tight end who's going to be a blocking guy. He's going to compliment our number one tight end. It's not like that anymore. People are looking for guys that love football. We hear that over and over again and guys that have traits that can help you. There's this guy named Sam Roush, right? Oh, here we go. From Stanford. I just like what I see from him.

He's 6 foot 6. He's 267 pounds. He's got 10-inch hands. Very short arms. It's shocking, by the way. I once called him oatmeal, you know? Just like think about it a cold winter's day. You come down, you need some nutrients, and you're, like, going out as a lumberjohn.

to cut down wood. Sam Rouse is that guy, right? And at the senior bowl, he catches everything with those big mitts, and he's running the routes properly, and he's tough, and he's the best blocking tight end in this entire class. Well, guess what? He's kind of explosive, too. Showed out today, 38.5 inch vertical, third best behind Stowers and Sadiq, who are wide receivers, let's call it what it is. Stowers and Sadiq, Sadiq is 241. Stowers is 239. Roush is 2. 267 had 38.5 inch vertical. Third best. Okay. Broad jump, 9-11. Tide for 9th. You say, well, that's not that great. But look at every single other wide receiver slash tight end before him. It's a really good. Then he runs a 4-7. You're like, oh, well, guys are running 439. It's average for the tight ends. It's actually slightly above average for the tight ends in the last five years. And you do the weight adjusted at 6-6-267. it's pretty damn good. Yeah.

Just. I don't have to stop calling him oatmeal. I mean, he might be better than oatmeal now. He might be. You might be. Maybe like a hungry man's breakfast or something like that. I want to go over to safeties now because the safety, like,

honestly, I was going to start the show with the, with the safeties. And then the tight ends did what they did. I had, I've had some good conversations here. Had another really good one in this room with an executive today, one-on-one.

and Nick asked the very smart question, our cameraman, superb, Supreme, that maybe should we take the cameras out? And I was like, no, no, we're fine. And he's like, are these on? Because there's like mics and cameras everywhere. And I'm like, no, no, no, I problem.

He's like, all right. The reason I'm bringing all this up is because we're in Caleb Downs territory. And I'll give you just a quick little glance into some of the conversations I've and kind of culminated today with a really unique one. Teams are really grappling with. Man, we got these edge rushers, right? And Arvel Reese is one of them, by the way. And it's Bailey and it's Reese and it's and it's Bain and it's some other guys,

but those guys are the three best in a lot of teams' minds. But then we've got these other players at other positions. Caleb Downs, Jeremiah Love, and interestingly enough, Sunny Stiles, right? Yeah. In this guy's mind, those were the three best players. And I've heard a version of this with some different. So I'm encouraging you to go read the McShay report, right? Because we have a full breakdown of everything I heard with that conversation.

It kind of follows into the offensive tackles. It's on sale right now. On sale. It's on sale. Yeah, 20% for the next two weeks. Dan was going to look for the promo to hand you to read. Instead, he's reaching for the crave cookies. And honestly, I can't. I don't blame them. I think it's 20% for the next two months. And then 30% for the next year. Just Google it, subscribe. Apparently there's a

percentage off. And there's no better time in the year to get it. But I laid out a bunch of good stuff there. Offensive tackles, cornerbacks, some interesting wide receiver stuff. First time I've been, I now, after several days, have been able to, like, multiple sources, so anything I say, it won't be directly linked to one. So trust me, there's some good stuff in there, and a combine review of all this. But I say that because Downs is obviously one of those three guys, right? Downs does not work out here. There is a length deficiency issue that we'll have to get to at some point with Caleb Downs. You checked in at 5-11.5, 2.06 pounds, 9-and-inch hands, all good. then a 30 and a quarter inch arm length and a 73 and a quarter wingspan.

You say, like, what does that mean? Well, the average wingspan for safety is 75. And five, it's almost 76. And the average arm is 31 and a half. And so he's below both of those numbers as the number one safety. And we're talking about elite. But, like, I promise you, everyone in the league is like, I don't care. I don't care.

But that's there. Jacoby Thomas is another one who didn't work out. EMW, Emmanuel McNeil Warren, the Toledo safety that I love on tape, playmaker, kind of that versatile chess piece, checked in great size. 6.3.5, 200, 201 pounds, long arms, long wingspan, all of it. I thought he just had an average workout across the board. He ran a 452. He was 10th best in the vertical jump, but it was solid.

The brow jump was solid. Didn't do anything to stand out. That's the end of the negativity in the average, right? From this point on, it's Dylan Thineman may have helped himself as much or more than any other prospect that it was already considered a first rounder. Okay. The Oregon safety. Because what he's done this week is beyond what the numbers were in talking to people in the league, GMs, personnel directors, like decision makers. This guy's in that top, top tier of the interview.

And it's beyond the interview. It's like what they already knew about it. But now they're putting him on the board. And they're putting, they're showing clips. And his recall, his recognition, his regurgitation of plays, what he saw, like calling it out. They're blown away. And there's asked to do a lot of different things in college. Yeah.

It doesn't surprise me. And you're the one. I just finished up his evaluate. You're the one. He said, go back and watch the freshman tape. Yeah. And he's probably better in the role that he played in Oregon. I agree with you.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what you were saying. He's a little bit better closer than the line of scrimmage. But the fact is he had to do that, too. The fact is that because he has this experience in a couple of different schemes and playing different roles in different alignments and all of that stuff, it helps you in the long run. That experience you can't, there's no replacing it. And so he shows up here, the Purdue transfer, eight career interceptions, goes to Oregon, star in that defense. Tosh Lepoy, the defensive coordinator, who's coached a lot of good ones, says the best, slot cover corner I've ever had.

And it also says he's one of the smartest DBs I've ever been around, right? So he comes into this week at the Combine with that as his backdrop. Shows up in his just crushing interviews. Teams are like, oh, man, I'd love to have this guy in our room, right? And then he gets to the field. And Dylan Thineman ran at six foot, 201 pounds, with good arm length, 31, 38th, 78 and an eighth wing span, everything you. look for, ran the fourth fastest 40 of everyone there. And you say, oh, that's good. It was a 435, folks.

These safeties were absolutely cooking all night. It was wild to watch. It was like one after another. The third fast was a 433. Okay? But he runs a 435, the fourth fastest. It's elite elite. He is a 41-inch vertical, which is elite-elite-elite as well, second best of this group. His 10-5 broad jump, which is seventh in this group, and it's still really, really good. Then he gets on the field. You know the gauntlet drill is one of my favorite things? It's like a guilty pleasure. I could watch it as reality TV.

Because the guy's just, I mean, you're running straight line. They've gotten to where you have to run full speed. You're going to cross the field, 50-plus yards. You catch one, you catch one, and then it's like all hell breaks loose. because you've got these quarterbacks that think they're, you know, trying to be the next like Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, and they're ripping it, right? And sometimes they're behind you and they're over the...

And so you've got to go full speed running on a line, kind of like a DUI test. You're sober, but it's harder, right? Yep. Thanks. And we're going full speed down the line, and this guy's just like, it's just under control.

There were some bad balls. There were some bad balls. And he's plucking ever. And he's plucking everything, right? Oh, man, did he have a night and a week here? Yeah, so. You just watch this is, you know, someone's going to get tagged. Every year someone gets tagged in the face with it because they turn the wrong way.

Well, that's why I like watching. I know. You're sick, you're sick kid. Yeah. So Thineman was the story, but there are a couple other guys that, like, I've been, that are my guys. Trade on Dukes. Yep, I knew you were going to get to this one. Yep.

Look at this list. So Caleb Downs doesn't work up. Emmanuel McNeil does, McNeil Warren does EMW. I'm tired of saying that entire name. And EMW has got a ring to it. EMW has a solid, just average workout, but Thineman blows the doors off the place. Then it's Traydand Stooges from Arizona.

By the way, Jedfish, you look at the Arizona and Washington DBs that are in the combine. They put on a show. They're all 6-2-plus and can work. out. So Stukes, if you look here, almost 6-1, 190, runs a 433, third fastest. Who in what world does the third fastest 40 for safety equate to 433? It's unbelievable. Vertical jump, 38. He had an awesome, awesome week, right? Bud Clark, next one on my list, had a really nice day.

Very happy for Bud Clark. He ran a 4-4-4-4. one. Bud Clark, remember if you were with us at the Senior Bowl, he and Kyle Lewis, the linebacker, who some people want to say safety, he's an off-ball linebacker from Pitt, were the two most instinctive players, guys making the most plays

all week long, and I saw it from the very beginning with him and his position coach at Senior Bowl. And so I was like, I hope he comes out and works out as well, because you take those instincts with that 6-188-pound frame, the length he's, like, this guy's got a chance to be really, really good.

So now I'm looking at Stoaks and saying, that doesn't get out of the second round? No. You see those interceptions, those three interceptions? About Stoogs or Clark? I'm talking Stoogh first. And then Clark with those instincts that you've seen, the playmaking ability and the versatility,

these guys, I don't know that they get out of the second if they do like early third and you're getting a steal. Clark's jumps 38-inch vertical, 10-7 broad. I mean, he's a nice day. So all that happened. And then Jalen Kilgore runs a 4-4. 37-inch vertical, 10-10 broad, which was tied for the best of everyone there.

He's a 6-1-210-pound safety out of South Carolina. So this safety class is now starting to shape up, right? With downs being a top five pick potentially, EMW and Dylan Thineman, that's a war now. Yeah. Fights on. Yeah. I actually had Thineman hire.

and I don't, I thought it was the minority in that, but yeah. Well, if you did, then you can extend it. And then Stukes and Clark, and by the way, Zaki Wheatley, who didn't work out, really good player, A.J. Halsey didn't work out, really good player. Jalen Kilgore, I just talked about from South Carolina. That's a good group. But then there's the story of the Stiles family.

Hold on really quickly. Halsey ran a 4-5-2, which I think was a good time for him. He didn't do any of the other stuff, but at 215, he ran a 4-5-2. I like his tape. the LSU safety. This, this, yeah, I do too. Okay. He's a really, really good player.

But Lorenzo Stiles Jr. comes up, right? And if anyone watched the Combine yesterday is interested in this stuff, and you probably are if you're watching the show, he's the brother of Alex Stiles. Who? Well, Mom told us tonight. I'll tell you, Mrs. Stiles is the winner. Forget Thinam in and forget her son.

Mrs. Stiles was the best. interview of the entire week. They go to Mrs. Stiles and she's tweeting away. She's ex-posting away on her, you know, thumbs and she's proud, proud mama, right? She tells this story. She tells us, they're asking her, you know, tell us about the boys growing up. It must have been a wild house, right? He's like, yeah, well, you know, thank goodness Lorenzo had speed because he was always

running away from the trouble. And he's like, and Alex was always starting the trouble. and they were like, Alex, you mean Alex, your son, Sunny? Like, yeah, well, how did he become sunny? He's like, oh, like, he caused so many problems. We named after Sonny from the godfather, or from a goodfellas. Oh, no way. Yeah.

Oh, I mean, it's a great story. Yeah. Can you imagine have these two kids? And by the way, Lorenzo Stiles shows up at six foot and a half, 194 pounds, 30, all the measurables you want. he's the Combine's fastest defender. Can you imagine going to bed last night? Sunny Stiles is the Michael Jordan of the Combine.

Sunny Stiles took what Nicky Minwere did last year and kind of like scoffed at it. Sunny Stiles is the story here. All of a sudden, Arval Rees is pedestrian, right? Yeah. Follow me here. So you go to bed and now you're like, My brother is, and you're competitive?

By the way, he knew. He went to bed last night, watch, watch this. Like, he was the only one problem than knew. I'll show them, right? He may be a top five pick, but there's one fast, Stiles, brother, in this house. And he comes out, and not only does he run the fastest time of the safeties, he's the fastest player to run a 40-yard dash here at the combine so far,

and we're already done with all the defensive players and the tight ends. Yeah. And Sadiq ran a blazing four-three-nine. He ran a 427 official. Unbelievable. And by the way, jumped 39 inches too. Yeah.

I think they might stop calling him the brother of Sunny Styles. That might be. But this could do some things. But this 2026 draft class sucks. There's no players. Let's get to 2027. Anything else in the safeties?

No, I think that's good. Again, I like the AJ Halls. I think that's really good for him, 452. Because he's a, he's kind of a unique player. He's kind of a third. thumper with great ball skills. And so that was the one concern I have for him was how fast is he going to be?

Four, five, two, is great. I'm glad I thought, okay. Spears Jennings was the second faster. So this is what I wrote, the safeties class, right? 40 and vertical jumper, the two with safeties, the two of the top measurements that correlate to success in the NFL, okay? Elite 40 is a four, four, five, or faster. We had eight guys run that today, including four.

four with sub four four 40s. Stiles Jr. Spears Jenning from Oklahoma. Jennings from Oklahoma. I remember when I called Nagy and said, hey, or I text Nagy. I said, I'm thinking, Grayson Halton and the Spears Jenning is too under the radar guys. And he's like, and I was like, but I went with Halton. And he's like, yeah, great. He's like Spears Jennings would have been a really good one too.

Well, he ran a 4-4. No, he didn't run 4-4. What did he run? He ran. 4-33, I think. 433. So sub 4-4s were styles. 4-3-2. So we had a 4-27, a 4-3-2, and Stukes, as I mentioned before, he ran the third fastest.

He was just grinding it out with a 4-33. Just getting by. And Thineman comes in with the fourth fastest at 4-3-5. And then there were also, I mentioned eight guys. There were four more guys that ran a 4-4-1 or faster. Jalen Kilgore, we talked about, V.J. Payne from Kansas State. My guy Bud Clark from TCU and Dalton Johnson from Arizona, another Jedfish guy. Then we go to the vertical jump.

What's considered elite? 39 inches for a tight end is considered elite. Like, you know, lower body explosion. That guy's got something. Genesis Smith with a 42.5 inch was the best. Then Thineman with his 41, Deshawns Singleton 39 and a half, Lorenzo Stiles. The Stiles family's got some genetics with 39 inches. Mom said that dad used to trick them.

They made football fun. They didn't know they were doing football drills as a kid, but they were doing football drills since they were like three years old in that house. It doesn't surprise me. They all hit or exceeded that mark. And there were three more guys that had 38-inch vertical. Bud Clark, Trayden's Sooks, and Ahmad Moses. So that class, it's one of the best tight-end classes,

depth-wise and talent we've seen in a while. I really believe it. Safety or tight-end? Did I say tight-end? Safety. Yeah, so many numbers. There's so much stuff flying around. Safety class.

I was talking obviously about the safeties there. Corners. Anything jump out to you? DeAngel O'Pon's 43.5 inch vertical is pretty impressive. Dalyne Everett. Yes. Did you see a 438 on tape? No.

I didn't think he was speed deficient. No. But 438, that's a really good number for him. Oh, but the guy I'm obviously going to want to talk about. Is it going into the Senior Bowl? All I could talk about was Chris John. from San Diego State, how much I love to tape. And I felt like he just had kind of a down week.

It wasn't like the bottom fell out. But, you know, I just wanted more for him that week. And ever since that, he's been, I feel like he's been climbing back up. Oh, I don't know how fast he is. He runs a 4-4 today. That's a really good number for him. I don't think there's a player in the cornerback group that I, Ticario Davis from Arizona, you could argue,

had the best workout and all that. But for a player whose tape is that. good, like the solidifying of that with numbers that were actually better. All of it was better for Chris Johnson. Chris Johnson's been one of Munch's favorite players in this draft going back to like November, okay? Remember Chris Johnson's the one. He was like, I yell at my daughter Stella about Chris Johnson.

I talked to my wife about Chris Johnson. And we were talking to Drew Fabianich, the senior bowl. And he's like, the name Chris Johnson came up and he almost jumped through the screen. He loves Chris Johnson. I like him too, but I'm not allowed to talk. He came up in the AIQ conversation too. A.I.Q. Yes. So he's got all the things. But I didn't, I was hopeful. I thought maybe a 4-4-5, you know,

I was hopeful. I would love the 4-4-5. He, 6-foot, 193 corner shows up and runs a 4-4-flat, tied for third in an excellent time for his size. He's not one of the undersized guys, right? 10-6, very good broad jump, 38-inch vertical. The thing that stood out to me the most, man, outside of the 4-4. He was damn near flawless in the position drills. That's his thing, man. Smooth.

You know, honestly, everyone was smooth. He was fluid. He looked sudden. You know what stood out if you really go back and watch and you care about this stuff? Watch his body control. Because at the end of the day, if you don't have body control a corner, you can't be sticky. You can't stick to a fast, shifty receiver when he comes out of the top of his tree. and like the break and the accelerate,

you got to have body control. You got to be able to be going fast. You know, you got to be reverting. You got to be and you stick with it. To be sticky, you got to have control. And he's got it for days. I think he helped himself a lot. Now, what was interesting is,

top corners, a lot of them didn't run. Right. And by the way, shame on you. Because maybe the electronic tape is messed up. Maybe the track is fast. because these guys are running, like, record-breaking times. And so you had an opportunity, like, Mansour Delane and read the McShay report. Man, Sor Delane's going to be the first cornerback taken, right?

But Jamad McCoy, where have you been, bro? What's going on there? I don't know. And I've talked to a lot of people in the league who are like, yeah, I don't know. And you know what I see? You know what? You want the honest? Yeah, I do.

Every single one I said, we'll check out his agent. All right, moving on. Avion Terrell. That's just the honest conversation. Yeah. I hear you. It's the same conversation you had with, when you're talking to Drew, with certain players at the senior bowl.

And it was the same conversations we're having Nagy at the senior bowl. And so unless you know your client is not going to run a time, and maybe they come out and they run faster here because everyone seems to be running fast here this week. Yeah. And we haven't seen him do anything athletically competitive in over a year. It's been like 14 months now. But Jermon McCoy doesn't work out.

Avi and Terrell doesn't... He did the drills. He did, yeah. Position drills and looked really good. It looked actually really, really good. Sorry, there's a lot that took in today. He looked great in the position drills but didn't run. DeAngelo Pons didn't run, but he looked great in his drills,

and he had that vertical, which was sensational. Brandon Cese didn't run, which is surprising to me. Yeah. he don't be surprised if he's the third cornerback you here called. And honestly, like if he runs really well in South Carolina, don't be shocked if he's the second. Keith Abney from Arizona State and Keante Scott from Miami, they all did not run.

So that opened the door for Chris Johnson, who you see here on the list is my seventh corner. Ments would probably have him higher, I'm sure. DeAngelo Ponds, my eighth corner, and honestly, I just keep waiting to kind of push him up, but that is the list. All those guys that you see there, outside of maybe, the first eight guys you see there, I think are legit top 50 options.

I'm not saying stamp it, but there are options to get off the board in the top 50. Yeah. Igbenosa, by the way, your 10th corner there just jumped out to me. The splits on the two, I really want to get him to the pro day. Like he's one of those guys. There's a handful of players coming out of this that you get a weird kind of a time that doesn't match up. And he ran, and I think a 4-4-something, and then a 4-5. five something. So it would be interesting to see what he does at the pro day.

Ticario Davis, you'll notice, was not on there, but might be trying to work his way into that 10th spot, maybe ahead of Igbenosin. Because what the good Lord only makes a few of these. We talk about this at every position, right? You don't find, tell me this. If arm length and 40 are the two most important traits that I tell you about at cornerback every year, okay, you just don't find many six foot four corners with 81 inch wingspans with 33 and three-eighth inch arm length that run a 4-4-1. So you know what I do if I'm the general manager and I take it and I use a late second round pick on Ticario Davis whose tape has been up and down through his career.

He started at Arizona, transferred to Washington and went with Jed. I kind of look at my defensive coordinator and say, you know what, bud, you figure it out. because like if you can't do something with 6-4-194-8, 81-inch wing and 4-4-140 and assuming we're running the right scheme. He screams Seattle, of course, right? Any variation thereof? Correct.

Yeah, he's got to be in the right place. But it is interesting because I always think about Tedroa Mcmillan in that Arizona, like they had that really just bad 2024 Arizona did. And then these guys follow. And obviously, Tedroa didn't follow. But, like, I just feel like that was... In 2023, Ticario Davis had 15 passes defended.

I mean, he had a year. And then the wheels kind of came off on 2024. And then he was banged up last year. I always like... I love these players that you could, like, look at something in their situations. What's the story? Is there an injury?

Is there a coaching change? Is something else going on? And when they were right, what did they look like? Now, again, this is two years ago. And you got to keep that in mind, or three years ago, whatever you want to say. But in 2023, Ticario Davis looked like he was going to be one of the better quarters coming out. I mean, he had a year.

I think the trend we're seeing with all of these positions is, and we're going to continue to drill into it and, again, read the McShay report, Google it. I feel like it's a foundation piece. And it'll be interested to see when you read it what you think of, like, this is actually what's going on in NFL rooms. And this is the conversation that's happening. And it presents a scenario in which a lot of teams in the teams in the team, top 10 would like to move back. But a lot of teams that are sitting there in 15 to 32 and have

early picks in the second round are kind of thrilled about where they are. And because we're starting to see there's more players. There's more players in that like mid first to late first, second and third. Now I think you've watched if you've watched our GM series, it's not run in fifth, sixth, and seventh as deep as it normally does. So we're going to have a deficiency there with the NIL and everything going on. But I think the strength. of this draft is when we get, whether it's picked 15 or it's 20, somewhere in that range. Now all of a sudden everyone, so it's like Eli Stowers is good. Max Clare is good at tight end.

And it's safety. We've talked about, well, we get three guys in the first, right? But what about this Stoogh's cat? And there's all these guys in this. We just listed all those guys. I'm like, I don't think they get out of the second. So now I'm going to talk to you about this cornerback position. And we know Mansour Delane's going to go first.

And then you're going to have a variation of Jermad McCoy. and Avion Trell, Brendan Sise from South Carolina, Keante Scott, and Colton Hood is another one who comes out and works out here, the other tight end, the other Tennessee cornerback, and I thought he had a great day. He looks the part of a first round corner. Yeah. And on tape, he looks the part of like, yeah,

he's a later first round corner. But now he runs almost six foot, 193 pounds, checks the boxes with his, measurables, runs a 4-4-4. And he has a 40-5 inch vertical and a 10-5 broad jump. And his work, like, he just looks the part of a first round. So there's, I feel like we're starting to stack guys. Every time we're done with a position here at the combine, we're stacking these guys.

Yep. We're like, yeah, they belong or like, we didn't have them there, but he's moving up. I think the second round, like, pick 20 to 70. I think teams are going to be like hold, I don't want to pick in the top 15 necessarily. I'm sure as hell not moving up. And I told you it's a fireable offense. And I actually said this to a GM I was talking to today. It is a fireable offense if someone in this draft.

So if you're a fan of a team and your general manager, and I hope to God it doesn't happen. But it's a fireable offense. If you move into the top 15 and give away a pick for 2027 to do so, okay? Let's get that on the table. But I think we're going to get back to that late first second round range. I think teams are going to be like, you know what, I don't need my fifth or six as much as I want to get that guy in the second. And I think it matches up with what we're seeing that there's some good players in that range. There are some players that are going to be starters in the league.

Because DeAngelo Pons has a 43 and a half inch vertical. Avian Terrell looks really good in his drills. Chris Johnson, you just mentioned, Ticario Davis, Dalyan Everett. finished with Dailen Everett. Oh, Charles Demings, big physical, nasty corner from Stephen F. Austin at the Senior Bowl, we talked and liked a lot. Had a good week there, yeah. Runs a 4-4-1.

I noticed that's. Do you have a size, he's a big physical corner. He was, like, getting in receivers' faces. 4-4-1 unofficial. 42, it might have been official. 6-1, 193-inch arms, 10-8-inch hands. And he runs a 4-4-1, has a 42-inch vertical, second-year-old. best of the cornerbacks, an 11-foot broad jump.

But then there's Dailen Everett, and I know you loved what you saw from him. Yeah. And he's another guy who's 6-1 in change, almost 200 pounds, long arms. Toriano Pride was the fastest guy of the corners, we should mention. He ripped off the fastest, at the time it was the fastest 40-yard dash until the safety started to run, and it was a 4-3-6. The second fastest was Dalyan Everett, who if you remember, you watch Georgia, right, Dailen Everett was this long physical corner, really good tackler, kind of a Kirby Smart guy.

Unlike Kirby Smart, former DB and coaches, like, the tape was up and down. There was inconsistency. It was a lot of big plays in the biggest moments. And then there were some plays where it's like, man, is he really a senior? You know, and there's like giving it. But the traits are all. there, he runs the second fastest 40, as I said, 438, 37.5 inch vertical, 10-4 brought, like he just had a good workout as well.

A lot of guys helping themselves here, man. It's been a really good couple days. It's been fun. And apparently these receivers are running tomorrow. I heard Tate's not doing anything else, but he's running. Yes. What did McKay-Lemond said? I honestly have not.

I'm dead to the world the last 24 hours. Why is he viral? if I could explain something would be... Oh, okay, you can't... And I think it's probably taken a little out of it. Like, if you... I would like to see the whole thing before, but it's just an interesting cat.

Oh, I had no idea. There's something going on here. Okay. I did ask a GM. We were talking about the top three receivers, including Lemon, Tate, and Tyson. He was talking about the interviews. I was like, well, we're...

Because he was being coy. Like, he's kind of... And I'm like, we'll rank him. He's like, well, he's like, Tate and Tyson were, they were great. And I was like, okay, so that means. And he's like, he's like, Denzel Boston was, you know, I'm like, so, okay. And then I see this viral thing. So I don't know.

I haven't heard anything bad about him, but I think that he might just be a little bit, like, you know, I don't know, we'll see. Interesting. But to my point, Denzel Boston's running, Malachi Field is running. A lot of these guys are running. and I think it's going to be a wild day. Get better. I'm starting to turn a corner here. I feel like today was better than yesterday.

Well, today was horrible for you. But right now you see... The show, I mean. I feel like I was melting last thing. But we're thrilled to share this interview to. Joe Ortiz has been a friend of ours for 25 years, as he referenced in this video when he says, yeah, we were on the bus together.

He literally jumped on the bus with us going from, like, Mobile to somewhere right back in the day. We've known Joe through Joe Orte's. The second year now, general manager or third. This is a third draft for the, for the, the Chargers with Harbaugh. And honestly, the stories here, the Harbaugh stuff, it's fun. It's really cool to see. It's as a friend of his for 25 years, Joe's one of those guys where I don't know that he has an enemy, but he's not going to back down to anything.

He's the most respected person across the board of all the people that I love in this industry. And he's a guy that did it from the ground up. Like if you were to write a book about the process of going from, like, intern to grinding out as a, like, almost like a grad assistant, if you will, to scouting and paying your duty. and on the road and doing all the things the right way and getting better at your craft every year so that when you get your shot, what do you say, 20-something years later? Yeah.

And you'll see in this interview, you're ready for it. And you give Jim Harbaugh a call during his national championship run and you say, hey, man, you're ready to go do this? And Jim's answer is, with you? Yeah. Let's go do it. this interview is awesome. I hope you enjoy it too.

Joe Ortiz from the Chargers. Man, we've been looking forward to this one, huh? Joe Ortiz, Chargers GM. I've known you for 20-plus years, but I don't want to date ourselves, but going back to the Ravens, obviously, with Joe Douglas and the Whitels and I feel like kind of extended, extended football family.

No doubt. It's great to have you here. Great beer. Your path is like the traditional, right way. When I think about what you've done and how hard you worked, and I can't think of many guys in your position

who really truly did it the right way. You came in under a Hall of Fame or an Ozzy Newsom, right? You earned your stripes, like grinding it out. And even towards like your last couple years, a couple few years with the Ravens and kind of knowing people

there and behind the scenes in the league, like you had different opportunities, right? and then you wind up taking the Chargers job. Let's start here, and then I want to kind of go back to what got you to where you are. But I want to start with, I know you had some opportunities over time, but this is the one you kind of chose. Why was this the right fit for you?

Oh, well, I mean, one, I had a preexisting relationship with Jim. And it was actually fun. Like when I interviewed with the Giants, it was my first GM interview. he was one of the top two guys was on my list, you know, and I called him at time, and obviously working with John, you know, the relationship grew with Jim. And so he was the guy, one of the guys I wanted to partner up with, and that I went in there selling, hey, I think he'd work with me, and then had a couple other opportunities.

But this one, the quarterback, I knew they wanted gym, and it was fun because I got reached out to and knew I was going to have an opportunity to interview, and I called him. And, you know, he was in the middle of a national championship run at Michigan. And I just asked him, I said, hey, you know, I know I'm getting an interview, and I know they really are interested in you. Would you do it? He's like, with you, yeah, let's do it.

And so it's just saying, absolutely. You'd be like the way you guys do things in Baltimore, you know, that was like 100%. You're actually doing a good impersonation. I'm just thinking about the conversation we had in December night when I was driving home, and it was just like, man, this would be awesome if it works out. You know, and so they hired him on, I think, Tuesday, and I came in on a Friday before AFC Tuttle game and interview Thursday, and just felt great, and I just, you know, hope, man, hope they offer me the job.

And just, you know, you got the ownership, the organization, new facility they were building. Obviously, Justin Herbert and just really felt like family. It was, you know, when I interviewed with them, the initial Zoom, I hung up the Zoom call and I called my wife right away. I was like, this is it. Like, this is the place. Like, it feels like Baltimore. It feels like people have been there for a long time.

They appreciate the organization. And, you know, that type of stability really appealed to me. So, you know, hoping that, you know, I get a shot at it. I've spent a little bit of time around, Jim, you know, covering Michigan games, did some stuff with them there at Michigan. and he's like almost like crazy like a fox and like you know but and I know some of the stories of like the you know just like kind of like right but there's a genius behind all there right yeah 100% peel back the curtain for us a little bit like give us an example or a day to day like what's it like

because you just you kind of never know what's happening but that's also like what makes him so unique and special yeah one he just he loves everyone and that that's genuine that's real like he's such energy giver. Like the first thing you, my first day working with him, you just felt the, the energy walking in the room, the excitement, the desire to win, you know, let's do everything we can. But the mind, it's like it's so creative. And he hears everything and he processes much faster than the normal person. And but it's just, you know, he's always thinking, how can we do things? You know, how do we get better? Are we doing enough? But the whole time, are we doing it and having fun doing it?

And I think that's what him and I get along so well about because like, yeah, let's go work hard, but let's go have fun while we're doing it. And every day, man, it's a joy to go into work, you know. How many years were you with Ozzy? 26 years in Baltimore. And so you've learned from one of the great, and like the tree that's kind of gone on and blossomed from that scouting department. And so you're, and then how many?

26 year, my gosh, so you were, as a young scout and as you're growing and college director moving up, you're always formulating in the back of your mind, like, one day, when it's mine, I'm going to take all these things. And like, even Elliot Wolf talking about Ron Wolf, like, you know, one day, if I can get my shot, I'm going to take all these things from my old man, but also like I want to, what was that process like when you finally become the head guy and you've got all these principles you learn from one of the great places in the NFL, but you know you want to kind of put your little spin and whatever it is on it,

and you're working with Jim, right? Right. So what was that like in terms of meshing all those things? Yeah, you know, I think, you know, obviously in Baltimore, we believed in the process, and it was proven, and we were consistent with it. So first and foremost, that's what I was bringing, you know, that Ozian still, that we all learned, that Eric, when he became GM, he tweaked, and he put his little spin on it.

And you just watched the whole time. You know, a 22-year-old personnel assistant all the way up to director or player of personnel, you're getting more opportunities, getting more, you know, responsibilities thrown on you. But the whole time you're learning. And after my first year on the job, someone asked me, like, you know, what did you learn the most? And your first year as a GM. And I don't know, I learned how much I learned. You know, like, I didn't realize how much I was absorbing because you don't feel like you're in school.

You don't feel like you're in class. You're just doing your job and as involved as Ozzy and Eric had us. You know, you don't realize how much you're pulling down from them. And so then when you get a chance to operate, it's like second nature. Like, this is what you do here. And you don't realize how much they're preparing you. That's cool. It was really cool.

So, yeah, you take the processes that you believe in and then you throw your little spin on. it, you know, and, but you stay true to the process, definitely. Yeah. McShay's going to kill me. You asked me before these things, what I'm going to ask, and then I always switch it up. So I'm going to switch it up again. Well, the other day we're talking to Elliot Wolf, right? Well, I'm not going in this direction, but yeah.

We're talking to Elliot, right? We're just kind of talking about his background. You're watching 10 years old, watch tape and memo with your old man. And then he pops in with his first question. He's like, Will Campbell's arm, like, I always saw this too short. I'm a little. You act like I've been doing this all. I just had, you know, I had some thoughts of a little, that's all.

This is much more positive. All right, go ahead. Ronda Gadsden, the tight end. I watched him in Syracuse and I just couldn't, I just didn't see it. I didn't see the projection. I mean, it felt like Syracuse ran the ball, what, five, ten times a game that year? Yeah. I mean, five, yeah, five, ten times a game that year.

They were just airing it out. He's running these hitch routes. And I'm like, he's a talented kid. Obviously, he comes in and makes, you know, carves out a role for you guys. Immediately, I want to know what you were seeing in that player. And then you guys have had some success with these mid-round guys already. Yeah. What are you looking for in a mid-round pick?

Obviously, you're not saying to yourself, I'm going to get a pro-bowler here. What are you looking for in the mid-round? Yeah, I think, you know, with all players, you look for that competitiveness. And you can see it in different ways. You know, like you talk about OG. Okay, yeah, he didn't, he wasn't an attached why, right? Right. But when he was in the slot, how did he block?

What type of effort did he give on the safeties, on the backers? You know, like you saw him move his, stick his hands and face in there and move his feet. Yeah, okay, yeah, we got to work on technique. We've got to work on strength and development. And those are the things when you take a tight end in the sixth round or fifth round. We took Arande, like those are the things they're going to come. But the talent was there and the competitor was there. So that goes with a lot of the guys that we've had success with on day three.

You know, Tar Heep still is another one. You know, you could shoot holes in them if you watch a POA tape. And like, oh, he gave up some touchdowns. It's like, yeah, look how competitive he is. Look how fast and athletic he is. And look at the way he processes and closes on the football. And so it's easy to poke holes in guys. And this is something you learned from Ozzy and Eric was what can they do?

You know, and where can they help? And I think if you look at it from that lens, then you develop their areas where they need improvement. I just had a flashback, right? Sitting in like the Conrad Hotel. Yeah. And having like adjacent rooms with Joe Douglas and Andy would come in. And we were with Kevin Weidel. And knowing part of the process,

knowing how hard the scouts grinded, right? One of the hardest places to work, I would say, but all in a positive way in the NFL as a young scout, but also pays really well, taking care of, like family, going to be developed, right? I also could remember them coming in after a long day of meetings and all that and, like, throwing bags on the ground and, like, MF and this,

because the passion and some of the debates and the discussions on players, know? And you would mention the process, like sticking with the process. What is it about the Baltimore process? And I like the grading scale and all this. But what is it specifically about that process that has been so successful? Yeah, I think it's the way we scout, you know, it's the way we evaluated players there. But there's also a competitive environment in that room. I think that's part of it, right? Yeah, it is part of it. And you mentioned Joe, and you mentioned Andy and Kevin and myself and Chad Alexander, like, you know, Daniel Jeremiah was in the room.

Jeremiah Washburn, you know, go back before that. When I first started, Terry McDonough was there. Ron Marstonack, the legend. You know, Phil Savage was the director of college scouting. And obviously, Eric was in there. And you look at the guy across from you or next to you and you, like, I got to be as good as him. I got to be better than him. Yeah.

So, like, you know, so you're so. And he's pretty good. Yeah, he's really good. So what do I got to do to get better? Well, I got to be more detailed in my reports. I got to know everything about the player. Because you know you're getting challenged. You're going to be challenged.

You know, and you don't, you know, we'd sit there and say, hey, you know, if you're looking around, trying to figure out who the worst scout in the room is and you can't find them, you've got a problem. Yeah, right? So like, but it was that type of competitiveness in there. But it was also fun. And it's just sticking to the script, the calendar, you know, like, hey, this is how we're going to do it. And there's just a way. You know, we're going to look for high character guys.

Obviously big, fast, explosive, smart and instinctive players. But, you know, they got to be wired the right way, fit the Raven, culture. And that's one of the things I carried forward to Los Angeles is like, we're looking for a specific type of player. And they have to be wired right and fit our culture. And you just trust it. You evaluate it. You go through the college, in terms of evaluating and in colleges, you go through the college season. You know, you have your draft board. You said it in February. You come to the combine. You've involved the coaches after that. But you just trust the grades and trust the evaluations and don't hear the noise, you know.

Yeah. Trust what your eyes are seeing. Yeah. That's cool. You've had that. I mean, you guys, you're close. It feels like you're close. Yeah.

And when you watch that team, the way, watch your team the way at end of the year, it just felt like the injury is caught up, right? You don't, you only have a limited number of resources. Like, it'd be great if you can go out and sign all these guys to make sure you're good.

How do you address that with the injuries and addressing depth and making sure that you're, you're good all around, but making sure you're good in those spots that maybe you've had some injuries in the past. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because our first year, I think we played nine different safeties. And every corner that was on the roster.

And then we were signing a guy. Like, we got decimated in the secondary. Right. And so this year it's like, okay, let's throw a little more into the secondary. And then it gets the O line. Yeah. But when we first got there, you know, building depth was, you know, one, we were 50 million over the cap. So we had no money to spend.

We had to make hard decisions on some players, which was difficult. And we made them. And we just were literally just shopping at low budget, you know, free agency. And the goal was just to get as many quality vets in there that we believed in. Certainly maybe a lot of them were undervalued and they produced for us, but get numbers. Build the depth of the team up and then can, you know, hit the draft. have some success in the draft, and then do it again next year. And so our goal was to really build up the depth.

And I think we did a good job of that. Each year, the roster got better positionally. And that's the goal every year. And so that doesn't stop. I think that's one thing I learned. It's like a house that you're renovating, always. You know, you've got a good foundation. You got everything's there.

The supports to that, you know, and then you just keep changing the rooms. You know, but you're always trying to upgrade each room. and maybe working on two rooms at once, you know, but, you know, you can't ignore any position. Yeah, you want to, you know, certainly we were beat up on the O line this year. Right. And running back, well, you know,

some of our linemen are coming back healthy. I think we'll be healthier in the backfield this year. But you don't want to focus all your attention there and let something else fall. Right. I mean, the organization's already, I mean, offense tackle, the organization's already invested a lot there.

So if you're throwing more and more resources at that, I just think it's interesting. Yeah. How much time did you, it just got me thinking, because honestly, some of the injury stuff way predated you with the chargers and like, you know, here's nonsense about the 49ers and some of that stuff.

But how much time is spent, like, do you exhaust all these things to try to figure out, like, are the things that we can do to try to prevent? Like, what goes into the medical? Yeah. All that stuff. Well, we got a great medical team in Los Angeles. And the reality of it is sometimes injuries can be,

okay, we have a rash of soft tissue injuries. What are we doing is our nutrition? Are we not hydrating enough? Are we on our feet too much? Are we running too much? You know, you look at the GPS. Yep. We got too many yards and, you know, over the week of practice.

Yeah, people think you just draft guys. Right. So. You don't think you look into that. You can assess that, but the reality of it is this year, they were like injuries. They weren't. It wasn't soft tissue stuff. If you got guys with, you know, injuring their legs, be, whether they're being

falling on or kicked. Right. You know, it's kind of like flukeish, you know. And so it just, you chalk that up to bad luck, you know, and unfortunately. But, you know, I think. It's more structural stuff more like, yeah. You know, so, but I think you pay attention, you know, if rash of injuries come up, what are we doing? Are we, do we need to scale back some a little bit, you know, or is the diet, the intake, what the players are taking in?

Are they getting enough nutrition, you know, and certainly hydration? If we're on the topic, So you're at the combine, you get a medical report on every player. These guys go through a very intense physical, for a better way of saying it. When you have a certain number of players that you go back with your, do you have your medical staff look at specifically, or do you distrust what you get from the combine?

So our staff is here. Everyone's staff is here. Okay. Yeah, so the doctor, you know, I don't know the exact way it's done now. It's a little, it's changed a little bit, but they'll have a doctor look at basically each body part. And then our doctors will look at the imaging, and they're here. And they'll bring the players in and talk about some of the injuries to present it.

But our doctors look at the imaging as well, and they'll put a medical grade on that player. And so it's our grade. And, you know, if there's some questions afterwards, we may bring that player back to Los Angeles to see, you know, get another look at it. They want to take another look at it. So does every team have the medical staff here?

Hmm? So there's, if there's imagining a room full of 30 doctors. There's a bunch of different rooms. And you, you actually put like, there's like a, I don't,

you know, there's a certain body part in each room. Yeah. They cover gen med here. They cover lower body here, you know, and so you have the doctors, you know.

No messing around. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like men should go through that medical thing. No. Just for like the show. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. They'd be like, we have bad news. Yeah. It's not looking good. I don't care about the results. I just kind of wanted a camera to follow you. How much pizza do you eat, right? How invasive that must be.

I think you're like, I don't know, maybe seventh, eighth, ninth general manager. We've sat down and done this with. I was just kind of counting through my, I think just about every one of them had drafted, and relatively recently their quarterback. Yeah. You obviously walk into a situation, which is rare, where you have a superstar quarterback, right? Yeah. And now you have coming off this year with the injuries, you feel like you've got a roster that can legitimately, like you can make a run.

Just keep with the process, right? Is there any pressure you start to feel? And I'm just like being on, like, this guy is so good. And we're like, we've got to make sure, or do you just, I'm just curious, like, personally. Like, how do you and gym? Yeah, I wouldn't call it pressure. It's just desire, competitiveness. Like, we want to win.

You know, and we obviously, we all have the same goal, win the Super Bowl. And yes, it's unique. Coming in and having Justin Herbert as your starting quarterback, not having to fix that spot. Like, you know, and that I don't overlook that, you know. I came into a unique opportunity and one that's not afforded to a lot of new GMs. But I look at it's my responsibility, it's our responsibility, to make the team as good as we can to support Justin.

and give him the chance because there's no doubt. He's a playoff quarterback every year he steps on the field. And so our goal is, yeah, get there every year, but provide him with the team that can really make the run and win it all. Yeah, I mean, I think he's an MVP guy. Like, I think he's that level. Listen, I'm certainly I'm biased, but what he did for us last year, you know, it just is such a rare competitor,

such an inspiring competitor. And leader. Like, he's out there, you know. I feel he's grown into that, too. Like, it was always there, but I think he's like, from, because I met with him and did a couple games in college. And he, not introverted at all, but, like, wasn't a tack dog, you know. And I feel like I've seen in the last couple years, he's really, like, blossoming in that.

Yeah. Maybe he's just me. He's so competitive. And he has such a desire to succeed for. the organization for everyone around him. And he's so appreciative of everyone around him. And so it's like he doesn't want to fail you. We can't fail him.

You know, it's a circle of everyone trying to help each other. And he kind of leads that. And guys like him and Derwin and Khalil, it's just like you just watch those guys. And they're the hardest workers every day. Like in practice, when we're in special teams,

Justin's over there and the side field running gassers. like 50-yard gassers just for 15 minutes. Just because he's going to outwork everyone. That's awesome. How do you not just do everything you can to support those guys? You know what's interesting about it is I'm thinking this and I hear you both, right? But at the same time, you got to play this guy called Patrick Mahomes twice a year every year. And you've got to win your division first.

So it's that balance, right? You're going to have to build around Herbert. You better have a defense that can compete with that guy too. And that's how you help your quarterback too, right? Is it, okay, give them a bunch of weapons. Well, defense is a weapon because they're getting the ball back. You're speaking to Shays Lang. I've done so many studies on this, man.

He thinks that's the way of that. You get a quarterback, you better find a defense. He can make up for a couple sins on the offensive side, but yeah. You get a quarterback that can win the game on the last drive. Make sure you can win the game on the last drive, right? Yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, no, like it's a great division. Are you kidding me?

Yeah. And the cool thing is coming from Baltimore. Well, we got Pittsburgh. You know, we got Cincinnati. Cleveland had some good years. You had to work to win the division. That's how you want to get there. You want to earn it.

And so that's what we're trying to do. You got to go win in Denver. You got to go in Casey. That's no joke, man. Yeah, and the Raiders, they're coming back. You know, so it's going to be a fun division. I've got five questions that I ask everybody. But I've got to ask.

I've actually spent, I probably did like 20 games from Michigan for some reason on the sideline watching Jim with his quarterback like punching him before playing like all the crazy and I'll never forget watching him like one of the first times they caught like he went to like go do the armor thing on Justin he like kind of didn't know what was going on you know there's got to be give us one story or just something between those two interacting because Jim is like unless you've been around him there's nobody like him and you can say you know anything between those two that you've seen that's just so again, like Jim, he's

super competitive, right? And the one that stands out of my head with them is Jim likes to play catch, like catch the ball every pregame. There's video out there of this. Yeah, I've seen it. It was just so, the day it happened, it was just so funny because, like, Jim was having a

bad, not a bad day, but he just wasn't having a perfect day catching the ball. And he was just getting, Justin was like piping him. And Jim would be like, you know, I think he started taking some off because I was struggling. You know, but he's like,

you know, come on, you know, don't let up. Yeah, it's really important to him. It's not, some people think it's like an act.

They got to action. The compete level is different. Yeah. It's really important that he goes out there and catches the ball well and put, you know, uh, my first year in the league,

Jim was our starting quarterback in Baltimore. Oh my gosh. My very first year in Baltimore. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I had to, like, you know,

back then you didn't have a lot of assistants and managers, like assistant managers. So him, he'd warm. up practice and like pepper my hands. They didn't give us gloves to catch the ball then. So my hands would be all red and like, I feel like swollen.

But there was like, he broke his hand in the game and just, you know, kept on playing. Yeah, he's not right. There's no, like he's not coming out of the game. Yeah. Unless the bone is sticking,

unless they take you off the field. Yeah, right. Carry you off the field. That's just, that's his mindset, man. It just kind of just trickles down through the whole organization. All right.

Let's run through these questions, right? I think we have a sense because we know kind of the Raven way and what you grew up in. But how big is your final board? You get to draft weekend, and that's it right in front of you. Typically, on average, give us a ballpark. I'd say it's gotten bigger over the years. I think you just pour more time into more players. But you're probably talking about truly draftable candidates, probably 180 to,

Around 180, 190, somewhere in there. And, you know, you shoot for, like, you shoot for 150. Yeah. That's your goal, your top 150. It's hard to say. But then you get to 150, you're like, okay, yeah, you know, this guy would be worth taken in the sixth round. Yeah, right.

So it probably gets, it goes from 150 to about 17, 180, you know, just depending on the year. You finally get to this position, 2024. So far, being the head guy. one of 32 in the league, the country's most popular sport. What's your favorite part still about this job for you? Just being part of a team, like just the relationships in the building. Yeah. The job, the title changed, responsibilities change, but when I got the job, everyone said,

don't change who you are. They hired me, so what I love is the relationships and the competitive, you know, The competitiveness is what you love, but the job itself is just your ability to just lead people, lead the process, but just develop relationships and help others, you know? Yeah. We got a good gig, but the winning and like that team part is the, it's a little different. It's a hard part there on the outside looking in, no. No, I hear, again, sitting in the hotel and the guys coming in from scouting meeting, like I know what it's what I don't have to do, which I don't begrudge. But that part's hard.

Yeah. All right. So now you get the hedge. I mean, you kind of touched on it before, but of all the things you have to do now as a general manager, what's the least favorite or the part that you just would rather be spending your time on something else besides what? Well, you know, cut it guys is never fun. Yeah. You know, that's that, and I've done that in the past, but I still like to do it as a general manager.

I like to talk to them. but that's not, that's my least favorite part. Yeah. You know, moving on from a player, whether it's cutting them, trading them, you know, we traded to Lowy this year. Yeah. And that was truly the hardest conversations I've, conversation I've ever had with a player. Because why that one?

Because he's such a fantastic player. It was a fantastic teammate person, just, you know, everything asked. Everything. And so, but, you know, it was an opportunity for us to add Addafe, and where we needed pass and we had depth at safety, but you're telling a guy that, hey, you know, it's not that I don't want you. It's just I need somebody more than you. And that was, and you're talking about a great teammate and member of the organization. Those, those things aren't fun, but it's part of the business. Yeah. So. All right. Tell me about a time that you failed at something important and what

you learned from that. Jeez. I know. I kind of throw that on people and I feel like I should be talking. That's the heaviest one. I know. It is the. heaviest one. I don't want to like foreworn. I'm just going to talk now so you can kind of think through it. But I do feel like I drop it and then there's this weird silence and there should be and I appreciate every single person is like

sat there and thought and so we're buying you some more time. Yeah, you know I'd say honestly as a scout as an evaluator it's important for you to know everything about the players and not just the Eval right but just the person and

there's been time where I didn't know the guy well enough. And there's been times where we've taken that player. And it just, you know, a lack of knowing everything affected, you know, the decision. We took him and the warts came through. So it's, I think that's part of it. And that's how the process in Baltimore has grown so well. It's just like know everything about the guy. And so we, you know, in Baltimore and Eric put into a bunch of committees and we kind of evolved. And now we look at players' makeup and background and just football character and they're fit.

And I'd say that's one of the areas that really helped me like, hey, let's not, we can miss on the player. We can miss on the talent, right? Let's not miss on the person. So that's probably an area where I've failed, I've missed on some play. And there's been plenty of players in 28 years. You know, that's happened on players we didn't pick, you know,

but you saw, well, gosh, you know, I didn't realize that about it more. I didn't know it was that much of a concern. And so I just always keep asking, always keep. Probably guides you now as a GM, like, we are human. Yeah. Like, one scout can miss something, maybe doesn't have the relationship with the right person. Sure. And so, like, a checks and balances to make sure, yeah.

And that's the hard part. Like we talk about the relationships. Like, you know, scouts, it's a relationship business because we're going into colleges and we're asking them about players. Well, what do the colleges want? They want their players to go as high as possible because it reflects well on them. But you've got to know, you've got to get to the bottom of those guys. And it's about building relationships.

And, you know, that's something they did very well in Baltimore. And it's what we're doing well in Los Angeles. It made me think one of the first things, Kevin White also because Kevin worked with us for 10 years right yeah one of the first things he said when I checked in with him after he was with the Ravens for a full you know full fall and all that

he was he looked at me like almost like a deer in headlight he's like it is a relationship based business man like you gotta get he's like I learned early you gotta get to know these people and actually care don't ask them how they're doing and just keep walking on like actually sit down maybe bring in some

like coffee and donuts or something or whatever it is like you got to get to And that takes time. But without those relationships, I'm nothing, you know. And I mean, that's what football is. That's what all sports are. Yeah. You know, it's like, listen, you know, people move around, you know, people, people get fired,

they get hired. Like, you know, you build relationships with other people in the profession and where we know we care about each other. You know, I've been on the bus with you guys. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's just, yeah, you know, we know what you're doing. You know what we're doing. There's a trust. Yeah, there's a trust and the respect.

and appreciation for what we're all trying to accomplish in this job. And, you know, you show that towards someone, and, you know, it's a two-way street. Absolutely. All right. Last one and definitely the most important one. I kind of believe, I broke bread with you. I'm hopeful that you're going to come through in this one. Talk to me about draft weekend spread.

How much emphasis goes into it from you. Now that you're the captain of the ship, are you making sure the food is right? Do you like to eat during the draft? after the, like, talk me through the whole thing, and please don't tell me that you just go down to the, what was the one answer we got? Borganzi was a grab and go guy. Yeah, Borganzi.

I like Borganzi. I like Borganzi, the guy. Awesome, dude. We asked him what he does, and he goes, ah, kind of a grab and go guy. I was like, I don't even know what that means. Yeah, I can't. Yeah, but like, what are we doing?

You know? We have a good meal. One way of Wolfgang Puck that does the catering at our facility. Now we're talking. Yeah. I mean, like, try tips or loins with drizzles, I mean, it's great. So he does, that's the catering all the time?

All the time. Like so, that's a good jumping up. It's really hard for me to say our draft night. Right. Spread is any better than, you know. A Monday. You know, Monday or Tuesday during the season. It's a little better.

But our victory nights are the best. You know, we get the Tomahawks stakes out. Oh, no way. But, so I'm from the East Coast. Yeah. Born in Philly, raised in Delaware. Been eating blue crabs my whole life. Nice.

And love Maryland crab soup. And I don't know what year it was, but at some point in Baltimore, we had Maryland crab soup on Thursday night, first night of the draft. So then they allowed me to start, you know, they checked the menu of me. I'm like, well, just make sure Steve has his fried shrimp. Steve is shot. Yeah. Steve has his fried shrimp and make sure we have Maryland crab soup.

And so my first year in Los Angeles, I'm like, anything you want for draft night, I'm sure it's going to be great, but can we get Maryland crab soup? And sure enough, they got it. No way. Yeah, well, Teneal with Baltimore who runs the cafeteria, you know, the catering. She, her and Casey, who's the chef, they made a batch of Maryland crab soup, froze it up, sent it out there to me, and then the people, Wolfgang, got the, you know, they made, they got their own.

That's unbelievable. There's some real effort in here. Yeah. So I know the food's going to be good, and that's really all I'll eat. I'll eat a bowl of, I'll just make sure before we pick, I eat a bowl of Maryland crab soup, and then, and then I probably am like, Mike, and I'll just graze and pick here, pick there, you know, so. That's great. That's what I'm looking. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Love that. That's a must have. That's a must have. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. I appreciate you guys. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino.

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