The McShay Show - Day Four From the Combine: Sonny Styles' Historic Day, Arvell Reese and more standouts from the EDGE, IDL, and LB Classes.

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

Welcome to The McShay Show! Todd and Muench react to Sonny Styles, Arvell Reese, Caleb Banks and the biggest standouts from the first day of measurables and combine performances. Then, they’re joined by Panthers GM Dan Morgan, who discusses Bryce Young’s development, his path to becoming an NFL executive, and more.0:00 Welcome to The McShay Show!2:45 NFL Combine coverage: day four3:15 Reacting to Sonny Styles' and Arvell Reese's combine performance15:31 "Sonny Styles will be taken in the Top 5."22:30 Evaluating David Bailey's combine performance25:20 Is Caleb Banks worth the risk?31:25 Takeaways from the EDGE, IDL, and LB classes47:50 NFL combine nudge guys55:25 Panthers GM Dan Morgan joins the show57:10 Dan's journey to becoming an NFL executive1:02:20 Drafting Bryce Young1:07:10 Dan's draft strategy with the Panthers1:09:30 What's next for the Panthers?Learn more and join waitlist at ScoutMotors.comThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.Host: Todd McShayGuests: Steve Muench and Dan MorganProducers: Tucker Tashjian, Conor Nevins, and Daniel ComerSocial: Jon Roemer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We promised fireworks in the first night of Combine workouts, and boy did Sunny Stiles, Rvel Reese, and the defensive front seven gang deliver. There's only 56 days until the NFL draft. Ments you good? I'm great, man. Tucker roll that thing. Wow.

It gets one thing when Nick Eamonwary, at the time, a late first round, early second round prospect, goes out and does something like he did a year ago. it's another one a top 10 prospect in sunny styles comes out and delivers a workout like we just saw man we're excited about this new partnership this episode is presented by scout motors every new year we do a lot of forward thinking and planning for what's to come just like the all new scout terra and scout traveler they're being revamped for what comes next taking that classic 70s design and improving it with modern engineering,

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Visit scout motors.com for details. And then to have his teammate, who's ranked even higher on most teams' boards, Arvel Reese. put up the same 40 time. Watching that in my hotel room with you, here we are in Indy, and it's all you can dream of

when you're in a hotel room going back and forth to the Lucas Oil Field, meeting with all these coaches and GMs and the conversations we're having, but really the events about the players on the field and the workouts. And you talk all you want about is it overrated, it's overblown. I think in 2026, we know what.

these numbers mean. And I think we've come to realize that certain numbers, at certain positions show correlation to NFL success. And also when players are special on the field and they go do stuff like they did today and tonight, it's special, man. It's incredible. I mean, it was funny watching it because the first time through, Reese obviously comes before Stiles. And Reese runs this low low four or five. We're like, man, that's pretty good. But we're going to like, style's going to be the faster one. Stiles goes out and lays down, I think, the 4-48. 4-47 unofficial, right? Was it 4-47?

It was 4-4-7? His first 40 was a 4-47 unofficial. And I just let's give him some context. And I thought he got out of the block slow. I was like, that was not a great start. I know. I'm standing out of the block slow. And now he's like 20 yards in.

And I'm like, I don't know, but he's cooking. He's cooking. He's cooking. So Sunny Stiles checked in at 6 foot 5, 244 pounds, okay? 10-inch hands as they tell me to make sure my phone's up Hey, it's it's nine o'clock somewhere 10-inch hand span and nearly 33-inch arm length

Arvel Reese 604-1 so just over 6'4 foot 4 almost an inch shorter right 241 pounds, 3 pounds lighter 9 and a half inch hands half inch small hand span, which is measured from from pinky to thumb of as we found out the other day. Yep. And then 32.5 inch arm length, all really, really good for a linebacker and all okay, solid for

an edge. Right. So Stiles goes out and lays down that for you. Lays down a 4-7 after Reese because it goes alphabetically. Reese goes, he runs a 451, I think it was unofficial. We're like, who he's cooking. These guys are both great. We're like these guys are, you know, like they could, they could gone home at that point and everyone would have been happy.

And I remember saying that, man, he's cooking, but I kind of was hoping for something with the four, with a four after the point. And then Reese comes back out and goes a go sub four or five. And it was like, always, you came out and matched a four, four, seven. It was like watching two guys compete on the, like in the court out back. Yeah, it was insane. Like, oh, you ran a four, four, seven? I'm going to run a four, four, seven, too. Yep.

And then the official came out. And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then. then Sonny has another run, and he goes and runs another 447. So he's a 447 guy, right? But the officials come out and they say, nope, he's not a 447 guy. He's faster. Yep. He's a 446 guy.

And guess what? So is Arvel. Yeah. Unbelievable. Both had official times in the 40-yard dash of 4-4-6. Unbelievable. At that size, it's insane to be moving like that. And again, I don't know how.

far we want to jump ahead here but like i'm just going to say this because it was it was the theme of the day was the numbers they put up were insane but then you're watching the workout and you're like at that size they move better like it was noticeable how much better they moved there and here's the crazy part we had already so so so arvel didn't jump he didn't do the jumps okay but sunny styles did yep and by the way just just looking at him like up close the length, how he carries the weight. Yeah. I promise you, my man can carry 5-7 more.

I mean, he can get into the 250s and like no sweat. There's no body fat, yeah. And he's in training mode right now. He's going to be a 250-plus player in the NFL. I agree. So, and then he goes and jumps a vertical jump. Yeah. He jumped a 43-5 inch vertical.

I want to give people content. text here. You ready for this? They started this database in 1999, which coincidentally, I have kept all the records since 1999. I am not the database. I'm not the official guy. My first year, we were seniors in college, and Gary Horton called me after I interned with him out in Arizona, said, hey, you got this opportunity. Do you want to go to Indianapolis? I'm like, hell yeah. So I show up in 1999. They sneak me in. Debbie Paulum with the L.A. Rams. Enough time has passed. I can now, she snuck me in, a good friend of Gary's, and I'm in there and like taking notes. Young, Michelle.

But anyway, that's neither here nor there. The point is they started the kind of the combine database with official times, right? 1999. So when I say ever, it goes back to 1999. The common draft is what, 67? Yeah. We'll call it the common combine is 1999. So this 43 and a half inch vertical is the best ever accomplished by,

a linebacker. It is the best ever accomplished by any athlete that has been invited to and participated in the combine at 240 plus pounds. He was 244. It is the, I want to you to think about this too. This one's wild. It is the 15th best vertical jump in the history of the combine for any player at any position, any height, any weight. And I want you to think about some of the absolutely ludicrous athletes that we've seen come through in the year. Indianapolis in all the years we've been here. Yeah. I mean, even Worry did 43 inches.

He bettied him. At 220 pounds. And you know my favorite part was? That's 24 pounds. That's like, after he ran that 4-4-6 official 40-yard dash and went over and did an interview right after and not even heavy breathing. It was like, you know, I'm, I'm pleased with the 43.5 inch vertical. I was shooting for 45.

Anyway. Yeah. I mean, talk about hitting. all the marks exceeding expectations and the way they carried themselves. I mean, the two of them. Stiles is obviously the story. But Reese could have come out here and be like, I don't know, man. I don't know.

Like maybe he's not this fast. Or maybe like, you know, David Bailey ran really well earlier on in the day. And you're thinking yourself, Reese has got to kind of put up a time here. I want to have some contextual talk because everyone's going to talk to numbers and they're going to yell and scream, right? I think it's important for what we do and how, like, you know, how I am. Like, be better is my mantra. Yeah. So let's be better for a minute. I think the be better conversation is this. And I actually text some GMs during, like, after it. And I'm like, what if I told you I have a 6 foot 5, 244 pound athlete who is all, who was a damn fine football player,

already confirmed, who's gotten better year over year, and jumps 43 and a half inches, runs a 4-4-6. and has an 11 foot, what's see, 11 foot two broad jump. How early is too early? Yeah, right. And the best, the best, no, I said, how early can you take him? And the best answer I got back was pretty early.

Yeah. He was smart too at the podium, Stiles was. What? Talking about how he loves to rush the passer. And he didn't get to do it a lot this year, but he brought up a rep from Texas. two years ago where he had a strip sack and he could do it man i made this point to you i made this point to you sorry a couple uh i think it was yesterday maybe two days ago i think it was no it was

yesterday when we're prepping for for this very moment right i made this point that he rushed half as many times and had half as many um no rushed half as many times he wasn't on the line of scrimmage half as many times this past year yeah i was surprised at the i shouldn't have been because I've watched all the tape, but I think it was like 300 plus snaps. 33 is in the number it's in my head. I don't know if that's official. But it's 330 plus, I believe, for Arvell Reese at edge, left outside linebacker, right outside linebacker, okay?

He wasn't nearly as much on the line of scrimmage this year, but he rushed half as many times, like rush the passer, okay? Sonny Stiles did. because all the talk all year long was that Rvel Reese is this unbelievable off-the-ball linebacker, but man, does he have edge rushing ability, right? And that's why we were told he may even work out with the edge rushers earlier in the day. It winds up working out with the linebackers. So now we've got kind of apples for apples, almost identical sizes of frames, all that,

but Sonny's taller, sunny's thicker or bigger by a few pounds. Sonny's got longer arms. So he actually looks the part of an edge. I want to remind people of this, too. This is an important note. Sunny Stiles, if you don't forget, I know you don't forget it. Sunny Stiles is a converted safety.

And this is a day and age in the NFL where teams are desperately seeking something new, special. And look at Nick E. Menwari in his first year. And I promise you this, Nick's a really good football player. Nick can't hold a cup to Sunny Stiles as a football player. Where Nikki Minwari was on tape coming out of South Carolina compared to what Sunny Stiles is right now coming out of Ohio State.

There is not a comparison in terms of... Sunny has better tape. Vastly better tape. Okay. So now I'm asking this question, because here's what I got for you. On 169 pass-rush snaps, Sunny Stiles has 39 pressures and 10 sacks in his career.

He lined up on the edge over his career 317 times. On 138 pass rush snaps for Arvel Reese, 34 pressures and 11 sacks. Five fewer pressures, one more sack. He lined up at edge 333 times Arvel did. I thought it was this year. Maybe it was career, but I thought it was this year. I mean, it makes sense because he didn't get a lot.

He didn't get any reps the year before. He was a backup. Hmm. Listen, I love Sonny Stiles. I think that Reese, I mean, we're not getting into the conversation where you think that you're going to move Stiles head of Reese. What are you saying here? What are you saying? I'm just saying, okay, so now you go back to the hotel.

And everyone's grabbing a cocktail or they've got a couple meetings with players. And I'm the defensive coordinator for the New York Jets or I'm the head coach of the New York Jets. and I'm sitting there with Moji. Or I'm a defensive coordinator in Arizona, and I want to talk to Austin for it. Like, the general manager. I don't know. I'm just, like, creatively thinking in my mind.

And I'm not saying, take sunny stuff. I'm just saying it opens up the questions. It opens up this, like, this avenue of questioning of, okay, the leagues, we keep seeing the league change. We keep seeing, if you give me a player that's special, and maybe some untapped pass rush ability. He's a former safety. He can cover.

He can run and hit. I can use him in like three different roles, almost legitimately, like three different levels. Yeah. In a year where there's not Miles Garrett. Wait, hold on. You think study styles playing three levels? I'm not necessarily, I said,

but like backed off like some dimes safety, some, like, I'm saying you can cover with him. You can play him run in a base. Yep. On an obvious rundown, he's your base Mike lineback. Yes. Okay. On an obvious pass down, he can be an overhang.

Yep. He can rush. And you don't know as a quarterback if he, which one he's going to do. Correct. Yep. Those things are all true. I don't know. I just, the value there is a hell of a lot greater than it used to be in the

NFL. I hear you. Maybe that it's... Because I keep hearing... Sorry. I keep hearing this, this whole... I love it. Slant on...

Well, this year we don't have, you know, the non-position, players of non-premium position are right at the top. But like, maybe they are because if Arvel Rees is an edge and Sonny Stiles can do all those different things, isn't there more of a premium on that? He's not... Bryce Becher.

He's not... No. But I'm saying, like as a play, he's not, like, he's not Devin Lloyd. No. And Devin Lloyd would be a top 10 pick in this draft if we knew what Devin Lloyd was going to turn out to be. Yep. Maybe top 5, 7, to be honest with you.

Yeah, I don't think Sonny Stiles getting out of 10 at this point. He's definitely not getting out of 10. I'm going to say this right now. Who picks a 5? He's definitely not getting out of the top 5. The Giants are at 5? Interesting. There is no choice.

I don't think it's past 7. I think the commanders are at 7. If he's there, they're going to stand a lot. Seven is the safe call. I would be willing to bet you right now. Sunny Stiles is not sitting there available for the 16th that drafts. The Cleveland Browns. The Cleveland Browns will not have a chance to draft Sunny Stiles.

He will be taken. So if we go Mendoza. Mendoza goes one to the Jets. All right, let's play the game. Mendoza? Yep. Baylor Reese, right? Although Tennessee just made a trade that maybe they don't take Bailey or Reese there.

The Jets, no, the Jets. Sorry, the Jets, sorry. The Jets traded Jermaine Johnson opening, but making it like confirmed that they're absolutely taking an edge there. Right. So the Jets are taking one there. So it's Bailey or Reese. Yeah. Could it not be Sunny Stiles? Okay. And it would say if it's not, Sunny Stiles. Now you're at three. Give me the odds here. Tell me, let's just go back to this, because this is what I want to know. Why won't you finish this game with me?

I could be. I don't, I'm not going to say that it's, it's not. Here's what I'm going to say to. you. You're telling me the Cardinals at three, couldn't take it? Before you started yelling at me, I have like the worst cold of the world. I know, you're yelling at me. I can't even handle you right now. It's like but I would, I try, I just let me finish my point. If you want the real

like what a real life is with Steve and I, this is it. Oh God. Good. I love it though. I, listen, I hear you. You're making some great points and I will say this to you. Maybe you're right about the numbers. Maybe that's the styles didn't do it a lot last year. And I have been saying,

for a while now that Stiles can rush the passer, I see a different pass rusher when I see... You're making Dan's crying. I see a different pass rusher when I see Reese rush the passer. I know that. So to me, that's the value. I'm not saying he has to rush as much.

I'm just saying, I'm looking at this, like, yeah, wipe your nose, clean your eyes off. I'll take a single shot. It's fine. I'm just saying, if I'm a defensive coordinator, and this is one of my first real exposures to Sunny Stiles. and then I go back and I watch the tape and I see, huh, he can rush a little bit.

But I'm not even drafting him to rush, like I'm going to draft Arvel Reese to rush. Because Arvel Reese can cover, but he can't cover like Sonny does. That's fair. And so, but I have this player that can do all these things. And this lower body explosion and this speed and, like, I don't know, that's so different and so unique. I promise you, Nick Eamon Worry's tape was not the, that great. It just wasn't that great at South Carolina. There were some really cool, awesome things on it. When was he drafted, Steve? Second round. Second round. I promise you it wasn't. Right. Right.

But how important was he to the Super Bowl run for the Seattle Seahawks? Critical. And how much better of a football player is he in that scheme in the National Football League than he was at South Carolina? Significant. There was a significant jump. Yeah. And so, I'm not trying to say anything with South Carolina coaching staff to Matt Patricia to anyone else. But I'm saying as this young man is continuing to grow into his body and grow as a player and he gets the NFL and you have someone creative. Yeah. They can kind of like, whoa, there's all this stuff here. And I don't know.

I'm just saying we love his tape too. Yeah. And he tackles better in 2025 than he does in 2024. And his instincts are better in 25 than they were in 24. So he's a year over year ascension guy. And I'm looking at these skills and saying, why is, tell me there's not more. Because I know there, I know, tell me there's not,

because I know there is. I hear you. Listen, I hear you. It's going to come down for me. And I just think that the league is still this way. Who do you think is going to be the better pass for sure? I understand all the things that he can do. I think Arvel Reese can do some things off the ball too.

I mean, Arvel Reese is a hell of a football player who maybe didn't finish the year as well as he had started it, but there's a lot of great tape. Yeah, this is, I'm not throwing shade on Reese. I think if you're there and you're the Jets and you're choosing between these two incredibly gifted players. Hey, hey, I'm not saying that Sonny's even going to go ahead of Arbel. That's what I'm trying to get to get to with you. Okay. I'm saying that now all of a sudden. I'm looking at this board a little bit more clearly, and I'm saying, you know what, I love running backs.

Jeremiah loves great, but I don't love drafting running backs early. Caleb Downs is an unbelievably good football player. I'm not drafting a safety this early, and I'm not drafting ahead of a couple guys who just ran a 4-4-7. It's 6-4-65 240 plus. Yep. Okay? So I'm starting to whittle this board down, and I like these offensive tackles. Francis Maui, we know, is a big, bad dude who can move. pretty well. And Spencer Fano's got shorter arms than you want and you're starting to couch the whole thing because you're concerned about it. But he's a really good left tack. And these wide receivers are really good. But they're not Calvin Johnson. No. They're not Joe Alt. No. I mean, also the best offensive alignment in this class is probably a guard. Yeah. Yeah. It's from Penn State.

Yeah. But so my point is, I'm not saying that this all of a sudden a work, I'm not getting carried away enough to say, well, his tape is that good. I'm going to draft them higher than the two pass rushers. That, by the way, Arvel Reese, we just told you, 6-4-plus 241, 10-inch hands, 33-inch arms. By the way, almost an 81-inch wingspan, two-ons on, oh, no, that's Sunny-style. Sorry, Arvel Reese was 6-1, 249-9-and-a-half-inch hands, 32-5-inch arms. It was a point, though, on Sunny-style's 81-inch wingspan. go. He runs a 4-4-6. He runs a 158 tied for the third, which for a lot of teams that

Bill Paulian, his whole thing, he built that defense on speed. I need closers. I need closers. And he told me, he would get angry at me. He's like, tell me when someone runs a 160 or faster, and then I'll start listening to you, Todd, is what he used to say, with the pass rushers. For what his scheme was, that doesn't mean they're the only ones who can be good, but he wanted you didn't care what the size was running one six or faster he ran an official 158 sunny styles ran an official 156 but like those are great measurable he didn't do his jumps yeah uh arvel Reese did not do the vertical and broad jump right but then I look over David Bailey by the way hey welcome the conversation Bailey could be the number two overall pick

as the jets ship off germane Johnson and they pick up to vandre sweat at defensive tackle interior defensive line. And David Bailey, by the way, checks in at 603-5. Half an inch off of those, off of Arvel. 251. 10 pounds heavier. Yep. 10 and a quarter inch hands, significantly bigger hands.

Is that important? Well, kind of. Ripping, you know, push, pull, all that. 33 and 3 eighths arm length, inch arm length. That's another full inch plus on, R. Val R. Vries. And he, like, it's just, it gets lost in what he did today. Yeah. But David Bailey ran a 4-50 flat official time. These are, like, unbelievable times at that size. But it gets overshadowed by a 4-4-7. But my gosh, what's the difference?

Yeah. Well, he didn't run a 16-2 split. He ran a 162 split. Yeah, he did run 162 split, which was surprising to me. And I hear, I hear, I hear, pulling in my ear right now. Yep. You know? And so you want to, you got to, you got to figure that out because one of the strengths on tape is his explosive takeoff. But he broad jump 10-9. That's insane. But only a 35-inch vertical. His workout was a little up and down.

I don't know. It's fascinating. When you have a draft where the quarterback's going number one. And I got some really interesting conversations we're going to share here on some of the quarterback stuff. I'm not done. Tonight? Are you going to yell at me? Not tonight.

Okay. Not tonight. I'm building. I'm talking. I'm building. I'm talking. We're going to have some interesting conversations. I'm trying to survive right now and I feel like I'm getting out of that. I'm not done. I'm just saying I'm not done with some of the angles I've gone down the road with.

With the next four teams, well, take the Giants out of it unless the Giants would view him as a chess piece that doesn't have to be an edge because they just drafted an Edge 3 overall last year. Yeah. Last year with Brian Burns and Kavon Tibido already in house with Abdul Carter. I don't know if he's, I don't, he could go to the Giants. as a linebacker and just be another freaking weapon on that side of the ball. Yeah. He could go to Tennessee.

He's not an edge. He's not an edge. I'm saying there's some capability there. I think Robert Sello would one of them. Oh, my gosh. He just brought Jermaine Johnson back. Yep. A weapon, just like a chess piece.

I don't know. We've gone on long enough. You're crying. I can't. My face is melting. That's okay. Yeah. Everyone still loves you.

here's the other big story from today and we warned actually i warned Caleb banks if anyone was watching a couple days ago with some of the stuff that you're a big dude who moves really well i saw flashes and if i saw it everyone in the NFL saw it at the senior bowl when you get pissed off and someone gets under your skin, you're an absolutely dominant football player. But I also, and I saw those flashes on tape sometimes at Florida. But then I saw the plays where it's just like pads up. When I say pads up, it's not like a technique thing. When a player's pads rise, it's just kind of lazy.

It's like I'm not determined to fire out on this play and keep my pads low and make an impact on this play. I'm going to kind of feel it out, grab on with my long arm. and do all that. Right. Does too much of that. And then you hear some of the stories, and I walked you through all that.

There's some kind of growing up that needs to happen, okay? Doesn't mean it can't. But I said, if I'm a team with a couple dogs in that D-Line room and some defensive leadership, I'm looking at this guy and saying, but I warn Caleb Banks from Florida, you better show up here and put up some numbers that make general managers.

say to themselves, you know what, he's worth that risk. And my goodness, did he do it? Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. I mean, it's impressive, but we just had a talk with Mike Borganzi, the GM, who said, we become intoxicated with talent. Let's go into the numbers first, because they are.

Oh, here the numbers are absurd. They're absurd. Six foot six and a quarter, 327 pounds, 10 and 7-inch hands. That's like massive. 35 inch arm length. There's like four or five of those guys a year at all positions, okay? With an eight, I just told you that Sunny Stiles had an 80, almost an 81 inch arm wingspan, and that was wild. His is 85 and three quarters.

He's like a, he's like a city block. When he stands like this, that's like, that's like fifth and four, between 49th and 48th in Manhattan. He comes out and he jumps 32-inch vertical. The five-year average for interior defensive lines at the combine is 305 pounds jumping 29 inches. I just told you he's 327 pounds, and he jumped 32 inches. Broad jump 9-6, second best of all the interior defensive linemen. And I want to remind you some guys were like 287, 296.

He's 327. then he ran a 504 in the 40-yard dash. For perspective, only two other interior defensive linemen today were over 300 pounds and ran faster. The next highest or the next closest in weight was Capehart, the defensive tackle from Clemson, and he was 14 pounds lighter. It's crazy.

Okay? And then what happened? His height, 98th percentile. His weight, 89th percentile. Hand, 94th, arm, 94th, wingspan, 99th. Longest at the combine for defensive tackle since we started recording when? Pop quiz? 1999.

So why isn't it a hundredth percentile? And then what happened? And then what happened was his cleats were hurting him, and he decided not to finish his workout. So weird. It's so weird. Like, I don't even care. Like, just stay you. like you're done for the day.

Why are your cleats feeling strange? Why, like, it's... Well, he had a foot injury that he missed most of the shoes. I understand. And I don't... Like, I get that and that should be taken into account, but just be like, my foot... It plays into the narrative. And I, here's the thing.

When you think we're being like, oh, they're being so... Old man yelling at the clouds. I get it. No, but the, here's the... Like, people always want to know from us, what's the real talk? Well, the real talk is when Caleb Banks pulls out from the end and gives... The cleats weren't feeling well. every single person that matters that has a voice in an NFL draft room is saying,

of course he does. And it's unfortunate, now he's earned it. And so had Sunny Stiles that happened, they'd be like, something's wrong. Arvel Reese, something's wrong. Right. A lot of other guys, something's wrong. So, and again, it's not something that's going to change it. It's just like, you were so close to having this perfect day.

This great day? Yeah. unbelievable day. Where are we going now? So many places I want to go. Okay. I want to get back to, you know what, let's talk. There are some other players that had really good days.

Do you think he goes in the first round, Caleb Banks? I think in this class, someone's going to take a shot. His RAS score unofficially, they haven't released the official ones. It was like, it was 10. Scares the hell on me. me too yeah like cate mcdonald just because i don't know if we're going to get to him did not have anywhere near the day

and if i'm a if i'm a gm at the back end of the first round early second round well caleb macdonald didn't didn't run he didn't look as good during the the field drills either yeah i didn't think he had a great day and if i'm a gm on the back end of the first round early second round i'm psyched about it i'm psyched about it i want people to look at that and be like well i don't know man do you see him at the combine he wasn't moving that well because throw on the tape that guy's a dude that guy is really freaking good and I know what I'm getting with him I know how hard he plays I want to get to you know what that brings me a good point the throw on the tape because that

guy's a dude here's some interesting stuff and I'm we can kind of rip through it um there's two aspects of this and it's both in the edge rusher capacity let's call it Cassius howell one of my favorite players now in the draft. I went back and studied his tape after like exhausting it through August, watched all these other edge rushers, came back to his tape and I'm like, oh, he's quicker, he's more sudden, he takes on doubles. He's got this lower body, like flexibility slash strength to him that it just doesn't appear he should, all these things, okay? And as I watched him on tape, I'm like, I just have a feeling he's going to work out really well, but I don't care. And the reason why he started to drop on my board is every scout and general manager I talk to anytime his name,

came up like, yeah, but, man, those arms. And then I kept watching it through that lens of his arm length. And honest to God, I told you, I watched Derek Moore from Michigan with 33 plus inch arms. I don't know if you can look up, Derek Moore, here it is. Derek Moore showed up at 33 and three-inch arm length. I thought there were a lot more times on his tape where he had, he got stuck on pads. And I think David Bailey with those long arms get stuck on pads sometimes too long. I think that there's a lot of, so, but then he shows up, my man, Cassius Howell, and it's shorter than even people thought. Yeah.

People thought it could be just sub-31-inch. It's 30 and a half inch arm length for Cassius Howell. Who I want to remind you was one of the most disruptive, dominant, game-breaking edge rushers and pass rushers in the entire country this year. It's actually 30 and a quarter, sorry. 30 and a quarter. Yeah. closer to 30 than 31.

And it's just a massive red flag for NFL evaluators. And then he comes out and works out and I think, well, all right, you know what? I don't see it on tape as much as I thought I would. But I'm hopeful he's going to have this awesome rest of the day. And you know what? He does have a really good day. He runs the fourth fastest 40 of all the edge rushers. He's 6.2 and a half, 253.

These are not, that's like, he's shorter than you want. He's about an inch shorter than like the new average. edge. But there's a lot of guys in that six, six, six, two and a half, six three and a half range. Two fifty three is, he's actually put together. Yeah. Right? He's like, it's a, that frame.

It's a good two fifty three. And he runs a four, five, nine. Awesome. And he runs at one, five, eight, ten yards split, fastest of all the edges. And so tied for fourth of all the, of everyone who worked out today. Same as Reese. Same as Arvel Reese. Okay. Same as a much smaller linebacker, Anthony Hill Jr. who had an awesome day and we'll get back to him. So he does all those things, but then his vertical jump and his broad jump, you're looking for, if he's going to have short arms

and we're going to play him down there, he better have this explosive lower body power. 32 and a half inch vertical, 9-7 broad. And remember, like, I know not everyone is Sunny Stuy. is jumping of 43 and a half. But the vertical jump, the average vertical jump for a 6.3.5, 267 pound edge, because I break it down by 265 and above. I'm talking for the power guys,

the higher guys, is 32 and 3 eighths. So he's right there. It's just average for a big, you know? Yeah. And his broad jump was below average too. And he brings me to this point, right? because I've had a lot of conversations now and a lot more today.

And a lot of texts, I got a couple coming. We've got to clear out this room tomorrow, by the way. I've got a couple of really important. But all these conversations, when you start talking to edge rushers, is look at the, look at what works.

Don't forget what works. And that's why people get so hung up on it, okay? Because this tape is awesome for Cassius, and it's intoxicating. And he's going to be, a great player. I guarantee you. Nick Herbig was a fourth round pick and doesn't sniff

this guy's athleticism and explosives. And the explosiveness had seven and a half sacks last year for Pittsburgh. It was a fourth round pick. You've been ranting and raving about the best players, man. Don't get caught up in But I want you to listen to this, okay? When looking at edges over the last 10 years

for the last 10 years, one decade, the top 10 edges if you took all of them, each year. In pressures. 10 years, top 10, each year, throw them into a database, sort it out, press enter. Here are their averages. So these are the best of the best in the league over the last 10 years.

The average edge, and the top 10 in pressures every year, average was, 6'3, 262 pounds. So he's not that far off of that. Right. 33 and 3-8-inch arm length. That's three plus inches. One six three, ten yards split. He's a hell of a lot faster, right?

35 inch vertical. He doesn't have that. Ten inch broad. He doesn't have that. The point is power. I hear you. Some of these averages scare me because Miles Garrett's going to throw off that average with his size. You know what I mean?

And I do think we're moving towards, and we've talked about this, where we're moving to smaller edge rushers. And this has happened in the past. There's been smaller edge rushers that have had success. but I think even more so leaner, lighter, although shorter, not necessarily. I will not. I hear you. And thank you for standing by your man.

I will not come off of cash a child. Nor should you. But it does, it is a, it's good perspective when I, because you know who the guys, the hottest names in this draft are and they didn't even work out today. Well, Stiles in Reese are pretty hot. I mean, been like, the hottest names in the draft, like talking to people over the last few days before the workout started. Tell me. I'm going to listen.

They're long. I know. You're barely alive. Come on, man. T.J. Parker, he did. Zion Young. Those are the hottest names you think? For my conversation, edge rushers. T.J. Parker, Zion Young, Gabe, Gapace. Yep.

I just talked to a personnel director yesterday. All he wanted to talk about is Gabe Accus. I talked to a personnel director on the field of the senior ball. I think you probably know who I'm talking about. Gabe Accus loved his interviews, power, he's got hands. That's what power, hands, you know, like, longer arms. What was he? 33-inch arms, 6-4, 260, big, strong hands, 10-inch hands, you know?

So it's just a reminder. It's just a reminder, while I'm not going to back off Cassius Howell, I then look at, I look at T.J. Parker, a guy who had half of the sacks, essentially, So what'd go from 11 to 5, 24 to 2025. Vaunted Clemson defense, loaded with talent. We did a whole podcast on how much talent that defense had, and my gosh, did we jinx that group? T.J. Parker comes out this year, and some of it scheme.

I liked his tape. I think his tape is way better than the rap he's getting, but it's not as good as a 24th tape. Fair. But I watched T.J. Parker show up at the Combine, apples-to-apples comparison, and he's one of the most dominant players there. And then he showed. A senior bully.

Senior Bowl. Then he shows up at the combine. And while dudes are jumping 43.5 inch, running 4-4-7s, 158 splits, I look at his numbers, and I say 6035. Remember, the top 10 averages are 6.3. 263 pounds. Top 10 average, 262. 33 and 3 eighths inch arm length is the average over the 10 years with those top pass rushers. His is 33 and an 8th.

40-yard dash. He runs a 4-6-8. 10-yard splits, a 161 for Parker. The 263. 200s of a second faster than that average. Vertical, 35 is that great average. He's a 34. Broad jumps at 10.

He's a 10. He's in line with what the guy's in the league. He's not getting out of the first round. I don't think he's either. I don't think he's getting out of the first round. I'm so happy for him, because of all the up and down to the process. Then he goes in the Senior Bowl, takes advantage of that opportunity,

and then he shows up here and competes. And he didn't blow the doors off anyone. But remember, he's 263 pounds, but some of these guys are running around 240, 250. This kid's a big kid. It's making me emotional. I'm just trying to fake it until I make it right now. You're doing great.

Yeah, good, good, good. I know you're enjoying this, by the last year. I'm actually thoroughly enjoying it. I know you are. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. A couple other guys I think are good players. that had really good days. I mentioned one of them,

linebacker Anthony Hill Jr. He, like, I don't know that he gets out the first round. Texas linebacker. How about that, huh? Like, I agree with you. Like, that's,

I think C.J. Allen might not be, I think he might go ahead to C.J. Allen at this point. I mean, he really took advantage of what he had to do today. C.J. Allen did not participate. And we could throw up the, yeah, there's the linebacker ranking.

C.J. Allen did not participate. I've got C.J. Allen behind behind Anthony Hill Jr. coming in and it's certainly not going to change. Now, I should say, for the record, I am in a, like, the tiniest minority. I'm like a one-percenter in the NFL because everyone loves C.J. Allen.

I've got to figure out what I'm missing. But 6-2-238. Like, good, he's a will. He's like, you know, off-ball lineback. 6-2-238, all good, 32- and 3-8-inch-inch arm, 79-inch wingspan, which is great for him. He ran a 45-1.

Outstanding. It's fourth best in that linebacker group, but that group just happened to have two superhumans in it. And a guy, we'll get to later, that had an awesome day, too. His broad jump was 10-5, tied for third in the linebacker group. 37-inch vertical. He just had a great day.

It looked really smooth and clean in the drills. I think he's another first-rounder. Yeah. I think the cream's starting to rise to the top. And you know what? When you come here and you compete, it makes it really easy for guys in the league to be like, yeah. That's, yeah, it looks different.

Look at that guy. Yeah. It doesn't mean because there's a whole hell of a lot of first round. There's probably, I don't, I would have to look. You start with Mendoza and you go to some of the other top guys that didn't work out today. There will be first rounders that didn't work out today. But man, does it make it easy to stamp? Yeah.

I thought Jacob Rodriguez from Texas Tech. I was really happy for him. He's not going to go in the first round. No. Everything he needed to do today. 457.40. I thought that was better than expected. Oh, my gosh.

38.5 inch vertical for Jacob Rodriguez. You look at the production, the tape, the human being. I think he's going to. He's a second rounder all day long. I think so, too. He's the second rounder all day long. That just was not a thing coming into the year. No.

No. Yeah? No, he was like a, he was a day, he was late. Yeah. I think it's great. One last guy that we've talked about on this show. It started, actually, it started in the college football playoff. and then I called Oklahoma

and they were like please but throughout a couple names and Grayson Halton was one of them and they're like please if there's anyone that deserves please give him some love

we're doing underrated prospects guys kind of under the radar right now prospects playing in the college football playoff Oklahoma's I went with Grayson Holton he's a one technique knows so we saw him in the college football playoff. We now know his background, like, and just how great of a young man he is, the energy he brings in all of that. He's six, two and a half. He shows, oh, by the way, Senior Bowl, he was

one of the stars. He shows up here, six, two and a half, two hundred ninety three pounds. I wanted to see him close to 300. He's there. Okay, arm length, 31 and, you know, 31 in a quarter. You'd like to, you'd like 33, but it's, you know, shorter, shorter than ideal, but it's not. a red flag. He had the best vertical jump of any interior defensive lineman here. 36.5 inch vertical, which is shocking. Yeah? I told you, the average is 305 at defensive tackle jumping 29 inches.

He was 293 jumping 36 and a half inches. That's the lower body explosiveness. That's just getting off the ball. He was tied for second in his broad jump, tied for third best in his 40, ran a 482, and fourth best in his short shuttle. Pretty cool. Awesome. I think this defensive tackle class is a little better

than maybe I had anticipated. I don't know that it is. A month ago. Really? I don't know that it is. Really? I think there's... You've got four guys that you think could go in the first round? I don't know that they do.

Lee Hunter had a number. I don't think they do. You have four guys that you think could go on the fourth in the first round. There's the interior defensive line. If you're watching on Netflix, if you're watching on Spotify, and we appreciate everyone who's watching. We're here.

all week. Tip your waiters. Lee Hunter had, Lee Hunter's one of the favorite people in this, so like I hate to do this. He's one of the great, like, entertaining good guys, fun,

works his butt off, had an, and I'm not saying these numbers are going to definitely keep him out of the first round. But there were like, is he is he there? Some people I talk to him think he's the best interior defensive linemen in the class. Others, yeah, he's third or fourth, right? When you go out and have red flags flying in a hurricane, like red flags

and your workouts all day long, it doesn't help. His 21.5 inch vertical. I just told you, Grayson Houghton had 36 and a half inches. There's a difference there. He's six three and a half 3.18 pounds, so he's a lot bigger. He's carrying more weight. But the cutoff is 24 and a half. I've done a lot of studies. Okay. Something below that, it's like, it's like, oh. Clean it up with a pro day. Okay.

How do you clean up a vertical jump in your pro? You jump higher. Okay. I mean, you just jump higher. Maybe you can clean up that cold by. Hopefully by Friday. I don't even know. Thanks for your concern.

8-4 broad jump. Bismal. I love this stuff, though. I love it. Why? Don't take them. I'll take him. Okay.

I'll take him. Yeah. I'm watching him against Oregon, and he's blowing up play after play, and I'm seeing a kid out there who's having fun, and a guy who is actually jumping where these other guys are hiding and not jumping, give me Lee Hunter, dude. Watch the tape. Go back to the tape, and 518 at that size is pretty good.

It's fine. Tucker just gave us the 45-minute signal. I thought we were 45 after the edges. He's sick too, by the way. He's sick, too, by the way. He gave it to me. I'm sick, but I'm tougher. He's bigger and could beat me up in a fight. But I'm definitely sick, and I'm definitely tougher.

And Merce is starting to wonder why it is you and I have the exact same cold this week, and it is questionable. All right, let's do some nudge, guys. By nudge at this point, every idiot with a, with, two thumbs and a phone and some service knows half the draft class that wants to, right? So we're not nudging that people don't know and we recognize people. But I do find it interesting when I hear the conversations. I talk to some coaches, not nearly as many as scouts and general managers.

But like they're just like I told you I talked to a head coach in December and like looking at a few quarterbacks, but like they get other jobs to do and they kind of dive in, right? But they become an integral part of this process. We talk to all these GMs and they all mention, right? So there's some guys now that are maybe eight, nine players deep or kind of skimmed through all these. They're not as deep into this process. So when I say Nudge guys in this context,

I know sitting up in those, it used to be in the stands, but it's now up in those suites, right? 32 NFL teams, I've got their own little suite and they're ready to rock and roll. There's some coaches like, who's that guy? Right. What do we have on him? Yeah, I watched a little bit.

I didn't know he was going to. Did you know he was going to? Did you know he was going to? And the scouts, like, oh, I knew what he was going to do. So I want to go through some of those guys, okay? At linebacker, Caleb Elam's Orr was a player. We actually, we talked to some folks getting ready for the Senior Bowl, and there was some excitement about him.

Elam's Orr is a guy who can rush and can cover. has a very versatile background. He had an awesome workout. 6-2-234. He ran a 4-47. How about that? Your name's up there, by the way, after the unofficials

and you're tied with Arvel Reese and Sunny Stiles. Like, who's this kid? And they, oh, imagine. If I'm Elymore, Elymore, I am going back and like, oh, really? Check the two faces of the draft from Ohio State. Their 4-7 unofficial turned to a 4-6 and mine stayed at 4-7.

Right. Who's in charge of that? Right. Anyway, he's, he was one of the fastest. Now granted, he's 6-2-2-334. And those guys were 6-4 and 6-5-240 plus. but he had an awesome workout. 159 was the fourth fastest

and is among the fast, you know, right up there the fastest every single year. And had the second best vertical jump behind Sunny Styles with the 40-inch vertical. That's a name to get to know

and to go check out more tape on because we talked to some people who are like, he's an intriguing day three cat, you know? Yeah. Who do you got? We're about Zane to Rant

from Penn State. Yeah. 6-1-2-90. shorter arms 31 and 7 eighth inch arms big hands though 10 to 5 8s ran the fastest 40 for the defensive tackles 475 what's interesting to me about this is okay he has a 1-66 split and i want to look at other undersized defensive tackles especially guys not name arindonald because i hate when people do that collaja cancans who was a first round pick in 2023 for uh 19th overall 6-1 281 so about 9 pounds shorter same like range of arm like with shorter arms, 30 and 5.8s. Lighter, he had a 164, 10-yard split. Pretty damn close. Now, Kansi had better production, better tape.

But I think when you're looking at Zane Duran, you're looking at that frame and how he's got to be explosive, he definitely helped himself. He had a big day. Yeah, it got me thinking. First of all, it got me thinking. What was Aaron Donald's? It was like a 159?

I'll find it right now. Find it right now, please. Malachi Lawrence may have had the best day ever. If you want to talk about him about a month ago, right? Yep. And you really liked them on tape. I did some tape limited, but I can't wait to get back to it. 10 and a half sacks in 2023 at Louisville transferred.

It only played nine games in 2024. I got to dig on like what would happen there. But he breaks back out in 2025. Team high seven and a half sacks. Big week at the East West Shrine. Tapes good from what I've seen. You like it too. You've watched more of it if we're being totally honest.

My gosh. he had a 40-inch vertical 6.4.5. 253. He's bigger than those other guys had a 40-inch Arvel Reese and Sunny style. Most guys lean. They get leaner after the All-Star Games. They didn't want to turn us into a track meet. He was 6 pounds heavier than he was at the ES West game.

Yeah. 33 and 5-8 inch arm length. Dan told me not to say a lot of numbers. He had the best best broad jump, second best vertical jump, second best 40 and second best 10 yards split, which is absurd in his size. And he did everything. Do you see everything? Yeah. Um, Aaron Donald, 163. And what would our guy, would Durant go? Uh, he went 168. Let's make sure of that.

166. So 163 for Donald, 164 for Cancy, and then one 666 for Durant. First round. Here we go. Here we go. I'm kidding. Yeah, let's wrap up there. I need to apologize to everyone who's seen this. Hopefully most people just listen to this one. Actually, you should check it out. I actually think I'm in the majority on this one.

I think it is unbelievably entertaining. And I think it just adds to it. Get healthy for tomorrow. Tomorrow we have... No, you have defensive backs tomorrow? In tight ends, yeah. In tight ends, that's right. defensive backs and tight ends.

We'll be here tomorrow night. Check out the McShay report. I'm going to keep Dan up all night long. His hat's already sideways. And, yeah, we're going to have some deep dive in there. And we've got another GM interview that we are thrilled to have. And honestly, this is a guy. Dan Morgan and I were talking about it before we sat down.

We have passed each other, said hi, dapped each other up. Like, know the same people. He even said they were like a bunch of times. He was at the same game. I'm on the silent. We just never connected. And I'm so glad we did because this guy is just football. I've been blessed to spend a lot of time.

Like as friends and like watching tape and all of it with guys like Chris Spielman and Teddy Bruske, two guys I consider good friends, right? This guy's cut from the same. cloth and I mean that is the greatest compliment like officer gentlemen I'm sure would rip your heart out if he could yeah care so deeply and you can tell the level of ball knowing and how to sniff out the BS which is an underrated quality in this so I hope you enjoy this interview as much as we did and and we'll be back tomorrow night thanks I'm excited about this one Dan Morgan's with us the general manager for the

Carolina Panthers and appreciate you being here. We haven't been able to like ever catch up. Yeah, crazy. All these years. It took this long. Yeah. Yeah. So we're both excited to have you here.

Selfishly here is where I want to start, right? I think you got a little bit of a foundation on what talent looks like back in those Miami teams. Yeah. What was that? And you were, your last year was 2000, right? Yeah, 2000. 2001 for those who don't know. I think the 11th pick overall, right?

Correct. Do you run a 456 at 240 pounds? You know what? They have it. They have it in there at a 4-5-6, but I was actually like a 4-4-8. No way. It was actually a little faster. Yeah.

A little faster. 4-48. But what was that Madhouse like? Down to Miami? Yes. It was a lot of fun. I'll tell you what. One-on-ones were the worst because there was nobody that you could pick out.

That's what I'm saying. If you were like sore, you had like a hamstring that was a little tight. Edron James was back there. Clinton Portis. Nagee Davenport. I mean, James Jackson, like, the list goes like on and on. You know, really in that locker room, it's just like a locker room full of alpha males.

So like, if you're weak, you're not surviving there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, the competition of practice every day, I mean, it was unreal. And I've got to believe that, A, just being around that talent, but probably more so just the compete level, like, has been part of the foundation for. for where you are today. Not oftentimes you star players translate well to the GM role in any sport. Like Michael Jordan we talked about recently.

So I'm always intrigued by that. If you don't mind, walk us through maybe some people who are influential. You get done with your NFL career and you decide, I want to stay in this game. I want to kind of pursue this. Who were the people? Where were the stop? Tell us kind of some critical moments in people that help. shape who you are.

Yeah. So at first it started out, like I got done playing. I really didn't do anything for two years. And then Trent Kershner, who's a scout with the Seattle Seahawks. He was with me in Carolina as a scout when I was a player. And he called me up and he asked me if I had any interest in being a scout, doing scouting. They had like an internship that was open up. I hadn't given it much thought before.

So initially I was like, yeah, let me think about it. So it's not something you wanted to do during your playing career. I really never thought of it. It just never really came to my mind that it was a thing, to be honest with you. Like I just got done playing and I was just like, all right, what am I going to do now? Right. You know, I mean, it's tough as a former player. Like you try to figure out what you want to do and, you know, you can be lost a little bit.

So that phone call luckily happened. And I actually wasn't going to go out there. So credit to my wife, she's like, what's it going to hurt to, you know, just go out and see if you like it. If you like it, then you can do it. Yeah. So I go out there, go out there, do an internship. I'm driving players to the airport. I'm doing all the grunt work that you do. It's kind of wild. Yeah. Yeah. And you got to, you know, you really, you got to put any ego that you have. I'm not a big ego guy. So you put that to the side. Yeah. And you just do you got to do and I loved it. So the next, the following year, John Schneider, he hired me as a

full-time scout and I get out there. First game that we played, they gave me the advance. So I did all the advance scouting out there and I sat down. I never wrote a report before or anything. So I was like, I was in the office to like midnight written reports and I was just like, oh my gosh. What did I get myself into here? I was like, it was a lot of work, but I love it. I love what I do. I love the people that I work with. And again, like, I think being a former player, I think the biggest thing is, you know, to your point, putting your ego to the side and surrounding yourself with a good team of people that are smarter than you.

And John Schneider always told me, he's like, if you're the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room. Yeah. So I always took that from him. And, yeah, he's definitely really influential on me, him, Joe Shane, Brandon Bean, all of my good friends. So they're all guys that really helped me get into this and, you know, get me to where I'm at right now. You know, we just talked about it a little bit. You worked your way up. You also went through this process as a player.

We hit on all these things. makes me, what's interesting to me is what would you change about the calm mine or the pre-draft process if you could? Like going, the understanding you have it, I think, is a little unique compared to other people. Is there something you, like, we could do something better here or we could switch this up a little bit? I think they do a pretty good job here, you know, for the most part.

Obviously, like interviewing a guy at 9 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night is not ideal. You know, these guys, they're tired. They went through a long day, so like you're usually not getting like the best version of these guys. So I would say maybe like doing the interviews like a little earlier in the day, you know, those first couple days and getting it out of the way as opposed to everybody finishing interviews at 11 o'clock and being tired. And so it would be nice to get guys when they're fresh and energized. But other than that, I think they hold a really good venue. here. I think they do a good job. We get to see the guys run around. We get to interview them. It's really the first time after

watching the guy all year long that you're able to sit down and be like, put a face to a name and be like, all right, cool. Like it's cool like seeing Caleb Downs walk in and sunny styles walking in the room last night. That was pretty good, huh? Yeah. I would say prototype. But yeah, those guys walking in the room. and just getting to know them for the first time.

And, you know, some of them, they just blow you away. And then on the other side, like, some of them aren't really what you thought they were. So, you know, it's 20 minutes. It's a small snapshot. But I think it's all valuable and it's all just, you know, a little piece of the puzzle that you're trying to put together before you draft them. Yeah. With all the GMs who have been kind enough to come sit down with us, we kind of want to get differing. processes, right? On the quarterbacks, and that's what everyone wants to talk about, and we'll

talk about it for a minute, and then we'll move on for a bit. But you were assistant GM when you guys drafted Bryce. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And 2023, right? So take us through that process. And maybe like the first report you saw on, the first interaction and kind of leading up, were there moments where it started to sway, we're like, this is the guy, or just kind of walk us through that from a scouting perspective. Yeah. So obviously, during the summertime, that's a big time for me where I sit down and I get ahead of the, you know, the season that's coming upon us. So I'm sitting there. I never watched Bryce Young before and evaluate this tape. And obviously the first thing that sticks out is he's not the biggest guy. So you really don't know what to expect. But as you watch his tape and, you know, you see the way he processes, the way he can escape the pocket and make plays with his legs. I was just like blown away by the tape that I watched.

I was like, dang, this dude is pretty damn good. Yeah. So obviously we go into that next year. He's on the radar. I went and saw him play against Texas, that first game of the season, I think it was. So I was at that game and freaking let him down the field for the game-winning drive, like made some, like, unbelievable throws. So I'm like, all right, this kid's pretty good.

And then went and saw him play again against LSU a little later that season. and same thing. I think they lost that game, but he played unreal. Like he escaped the pocket. He made like a sweet throw down there. And obviously, like, I fell in love with the kid. And then you hear like the school talk about him

and the type of, you know, type of guy he is, the type of worker he is, all those things that, you know, led up to us drafting him. But, you know, you go through the process with him and you sit down with him, you can't help but be impressed. I mean, he's, mature. He knows X's and O's better than any quarterback that I've ever sat with. I mean, he's unbelievably smart. Like, just super smart. You can put a lot on his plate. And, you know, the guy just

loves football. And those are the type of guys that we want, you know, especially at the quarterback position, you want, you know, those guys that are just like, they live it. Like, that's really all they care about is just they're obsessed with being great. And, and, you know, And I felt that with Bryce, like, through the whole process. And, yeah, he's just a great young man, great family. And, you know, we spent so much time with him through the whole process. And, you know, at the end of it, it just became like an easy, like, hey, we got to take this guy. Like, this guy is everything that we want other than the measurables.

But he's tough and he's got ice in his veins. So it's hard to find that at the quarterback position. Here's where your story gets fascinating to me, right? All of those great, wonderful things, and I agreed with you on all of them, right? And then Bryce comes in, and it's kind of a nightmare start with everything that goes on. That first season, you're elevated to the general manager's seat. You've got decisions to make. You've got a young quarterback who, you know, early struggle has showed a little promise.

But I don't know, it feels like a crossroads when you come into this leadership position. Yeah. And then you go and pull David. Canales, right? Yeah. Did an amazing job with Baker Mayfield. I think it was in Tampa Bay. Yeah, in Tampa.

And you have a, you've, you guys go back to Seattle, right? We worked together in Seattle, so we were two offices down from each other. So it probably wasn't that big of a reach. And I think you kind of targeted the guy you wanted, and it made sense because you need a guy who can come in and help your young quarterback. He's had a little early, you know, had some early struggles. But take us through, I'm always curious, like, what's going on in your mind? My gosh, I just got this job.

We got this going on. How are you attacking that process? I think kind of the same way I did as a player, like you're up for the challenge. Like I knew it was going to be a challenge, but I also knew that I have to have a really good team around me. So bringing in a guy like Brantillis, you know, as a cap guy, and he's just like a great sounding board for me, hiring Dave Canales, hiring people around you that you trust. people that want to win, they're there for the right reasons, everybody wanting to win, moving in the same direction. And I think that's what it takes to win. You know, you have to have, not just those guys, but you have to have everybody in the building moving in the same direction,

everybody wanting to win and putting the work in, you know, because it's all about the work. You're not going to accomplish anything if you don't put that work in. So that's all we're about here. And then you have the draft that you have this faster. right? Yeah. 25. And it feels to me, obviously, Teddora McMillan is the standout, the star that everyone knows, an offensive rookie of the year. But when I, like, sat back down even today, just getting ready to talk to you, it feels like one of those foundation drafts where just about top to bottom, guys that are good players, have some versatility, multiple roles, showed promise, continued, you know? Yeah. Is that how you felt coming out of this year? Yeah, definitely we felt good about the draft class that we put together, and there was a lot of work that went into that, identifying the type of guys that we just talked about, and all the guys that we try to draft, and everybody around the league tries to draft as guys that love football, guys that just, they'll do anything to win, they love their teammates, they're great in the locker room, so we're looking for those type of guys, and I felt like during the draft process, we identified these guys, and the draft really, fell in place for us to where like we literally like took the guys that we wanted like almost in order. Don't get used to that. I know, I know. But, you know, our analytics team, we have, we have a great analytics team and we were able to do like mock drafts before this keeps coming up before the draft.

And like it's great how what goes into your mock drafts? It's like a consensus board. So like all the top mock drafts like are on the internet and then mixed with our grades and I don't know how he puts the forms let together. It's unbelievable how accurate it can be. Put more emphasis in our mock drafts, I assume. Yeah. I mean, but like your guys like yours will be in there like all the major players in the NFL, their mocks will be in that.

It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So like I can sit there like I'll probably do like five, six, six. seven mock drafts a day. It's not a bad process, right? Yeah, and it's like, it really helps you on draft day because you can put yourself in almost any scenario and be like, okay, if this guy's on the board and this guy's on the board, who am I taking?

It's like studying tape for the week. Yeah, exactly. Game week. Yeah, it's pretty sweet. So you win the NFC South for the first time in a decade, I think, right? Yeah. You have that draft. things are moving in the right direction, but you know you're not there yet.

What's next? Yeah, I mean, I said in my end of season press conference is we got to put the work in. You know, nothing's going to, we're not entitled to anything. Nothing's going to be given to us. We got to put the work in. We got to identify the guys, which is what we're doing down here. We're interviewing guys. It's just one step closer to where we want to go and identifying players that

can come in and help the Carolina Panthers. So we just got to keep finding those type of guys that love ball or competitors, tough, have a passion for the game. And I think if we get as many of those guys in our locker room as we can, then we're going to be successful. But we got to put that work in. It's standing out to me how many times you're talking about, you know, not physical traits.

You're talking about guys who love ball. And how do you, I mean, we talk about it. You have a quick interview. You get this quick interview at the competition. mind. Yeah. Get maybe a quick interview with the Senior Bowl. Have you guys refined your process to make sure that we're taking advantage of that time? And one other thing that I want to kind of, I don't know if this is a big deal or not. I want to kind of get your feel for it. We're talking to some area scouts at the Senior Bowl and they were talking about how the transfer

portal was making it a little harder for them to get a feel for a kid because you walk in and you get to the strength condition and go and say, what do you think about this guy? I don't know, he's been here for 10 minutes, man. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I don't have a feel for. I didn't see him come up as a sophomore and struggle and then really works tail off and you know that whole story yeah is there anything to that and then like kind of what's the process to make sure you're getting that the nil thing i've been asked about that a couple times that that to me that's going to help us more than it's going to hurt us and the reason i say that is we're going to be able to get a snapshot of what this guy looks like with money right does he do with the money how does he manage

living recklessly is the party in all hours of the marty schadenheimer was said to me at the espion He said the hardest thing about evaluating, because everyone knows he's tall, he's big, he's strong, is what's this young man going to do with more money, more free time, and more fame than he's ever had before? And quite honestly, the money part you're starting to figure out before they get to you in the fame in today's game. Yeah.

Definitely. And being a former player, like, I've been in the locker room with guys, and, you know, I'm looking for that. So, like, are you going out, you're, like, blowing your money on cars? or you like, you know, out at the club all night, everything. So, like, it does give you a snapshot of what that guy is. Right.

So what was the question? Just about the interview process. Oh, yeah. Do you guys have a refined, like, you have? How do you sit through it all? Because you have, what do you have during a con by? 15 minutes, is that what it is? 20 minutes.

Then you have the zooms and you have the 30 visits. Yeah, and you have all that. But, like, I would say what you do is you go back and you watch the tape. Like, when you tell them about passion, for the game. Like, the guy that has passion for the game, he's not dogging it to the ball. He's not, he's giving the extra effort as a blocker if he's a receiver, um, linebacker running to the ball every single play, balls to the world. Like the tape will tell you a lot. And then when you meet the guy, it's like, okay, like does this match up with like the type of personality that I see

on tape? And more times than not, I feel like it does. So we had some guys in the room last night, you know, to where I'm like, this dude's a dog. And then, like, he comes in and he sits there and you talk to him. You're just like, oh, yeah. Yeah, there he is. Yep, yeah, didn't take long. Yep. That leads, I like to finish this with five kind of, I don't say quick hitters,

but just kind of run through them. And that leads me to a question. And I'll actually start with this. Did you bring kind of John Schneider and that grading scale and kind of some of those philosophies with you? Yeah. I kind of switched it up a little bit and just kind of, you know, as I went from Seattle to Buffalo and then eventually back to Carolina, like you take things, and John always told me, he's like,

take things that you like that I do and then write down the things you don't. And same thing with Brandon. So like I was able to see it done a couple different ways. And then, you know, I'm going to have my own style and come in and tweak it. Yeah, and tweak it a little bit. So that leads me to the first question. How many players typically on average are on your board when the draft kicks off on Thursday night? You know, I think we're anywhere from, it could be as low as like 115 players.

It can be as high as like 160, 170 guys. So I think at the end of the day, it just depends on how deep the draft is. Usually like the seventh round guys are guys that are kind of free agents, but they're guys that like you really want us a free. agent that you would pay money for. So like if you're competing at the end of the draft and you don't want to compete, you know, to pay the guy like, you know, money at the end of the draft, then you just draft them. So right. A lot of those numbers get bolstered by that seventh round usually. Right. So I think for you guys, it's because we've talked to some GMs where it's closer

like 200. It seems like you instead of turning a name upside down, it's kind of like take. I mean, we just put a microscope on the draft board and we're like, this guy's either, what we want or he's not what we want. So let's so let's just like clean him off the board like he's not our type of guy like he doesn't love football or he has bad football character or bad personal character and it's like

I'm really not in the business of messing around and like putting anybody's jobs on the line and putting a guy in our locker room that you know the guys will come up and I have a really good relationship with all our players and like I don't want them coming up to me being like why'd you draft this dude? Yeah, right.

So I kind of hold myself accountable too. You get this job and it's such so different and then you go from playing and then go from what you talked about early in your career doing the grunt work and then you finally rise to this position. And you kind of knew what to expect because you're assistant GM and you're around it. But when you get the job after a little while and like when you look back now or even today, what are the, what's your favorite thing? still to do, you know? Watch tape. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in, I'm in my office. If I'm not, you know, downstairs talking to the nutrition people and the trainers, I'm in my office, I'm watching tape. I watch countless guys on tape. I make sure everybody on our board, I have a written report on. I know exactly who they are. So on draft day, I'm going in there and I have full

confidence. Like when we say, we're picking this guy, I know this guy. Right. I don't have to depend on anybody else. And I have a great team around me and like everybody's opinions matter, which is what I want. And people can challenge me. People can give me their point of view and I'm going to look into it and like maybe I miss something or maybe the analytics see something that I didn't see. Has one of your scouts ever swayed you and said, you know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah. I love that. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're a team.

Yeah. We're a team, and that's, you know, no different than on the field. Like, we're a team, and, like, everybody's got to say, like, put it all out there. Yeah, we've been all the time over players. Yeah, yeah. If we didn't, then what are we doing? Yeah, I think, yeah, you got to have it that way. If you don't have it that way, then, you know, I don't have all the answers, and I know that.

Right. So, we've asked all the GMs, and it's interesting to get this answer. What's the part of your job that, not least favorite or that you can't stand? But what's the one part that, like, pulls you away from? from what you want to be doing, watching tape and that sort of stuff, that maybe is surprised you as the GM or whatever it is, something that you just, it's not your favor. Let's put it that way.

I would say, like, credit to John Schneider, credit to Brandon Bean, credit to Joe Shane. They involved me in every little detail. So, like, when I took over this job, like, I felt really prepared. Really? Like, I knew what I was going to have to deal with. I knew I was going to have to talk to the owner all the time. time. I knew that I was going to have to put fires out and things were going to come to my desk

that were unexpected. So credit to them, they did a great job involving me in like every talk. John would bring me in even as a pro scout and like tell me what the owner said. And like, hey, you're going to have to deal with this someday. So that's cool. They did a great job preparing me. So they're definitely mentors to me that, you know, I wouldn't be here without them. You still talk to them? I'm sure. All the time. Yeah. That's great.

That's great. Yeah, they're my guys. Tell me about a time that you failed at something important and what you learn from it. I would say, you know, as a player, I've had my failures, you know, getting hurt. You know, when I got done playing, I opened up a restaurant, and that didn't do good. And I've been through adversity as a kid. Yeah. growing up in my life, you know, in terms of like specific stuff, like, you know, injury-wise,

as a player, like, it's stuck getting hurt all the time and not being able to maximize my career. And, you know, I think what I see a lot of these guys nowadays, like adversity is going to come in your life. And to be able to deal with that, like, it's going to only make you stronger and tougher as a person. and it'll humble you as well. And I think that's the attitude that we have to have, you know, just in life in general and to be successful with what we do here is just come in with a humble mentality and everybody put your egos to decide and let's do what's best for the organization.

So that's... It's a hard thing, right? I think it comes with maturity and for some people it never comes, it feels like, and some people it comes earlier. but like attacking adversity. It kind of tells you who a person is, right? Yeah, it does. When you're down, like, we all get our ass kicked.

We all get knocked out. We all do. Different things, personal life, health, you know, all of it. Business-wise, and to figure out, have that click, like, you know what? I'm good, let's go. Yep, exactly. And we look for that in the players here, you know, like, even like in all the background, like, we want players, and I learned this from,

Pete Carroll and John Schneider, like, we would look for guys that have been through adversity. We want guys that have, like, they've had to overcome a lot because, inevitably, you're going to have to deal with adversity when you get to the NFL. It's not going to go perfect for you. You look at some of the big busts over the years that's coming out of the draft. They're the guys that people call them entitled. Yeah. But, like, guys that just never had to.

Yeah. Because they were kind of pushed up. Here you go. You're right. You know? It's interesting, right? Yeah, definitely. All right, most important question we ask.

I'm kind of worried about this answer with you. I'm going to be honest, because you're ripped, your former plate, you're in nutrition and all that. Talk to me about the draft spread. Is it important to you? Are you in charge of it? Walk me through it. You're talking about the food. The food through draft weekend, yeah.

So we do, so I'm a big sushi guy. Everyone loves the ice. Everyone loves sushi. We bring like a sushi guy that comes in and he makes. like on the first day of the draft, it's not every day. But the first day of a chef, private sushi. Now we're talking. So he's making the rolls

right there. Makes the rolls right there. Oh, man. And it's phenomenal. Yeah. So that's been, yeah, it's been that since I took over. Can you eat during the draft or are you one of those guys when it's over? Then you want like a big meal. Like, how does it go for you? Yeah, I don't like eating a ton in general.

But I'll eat the sushi, though. I'll eat the sushi. And then like I'm big, like, into like, like mints and like worthers like during the draft just to kind of like keep myself our owner David Tepper always messes with me because I'll have like a bunch of rappers all over the place he's like Jesus how many of those did you eat so yeah he's always messing with me about that that's awesome I appreciate your time yeah thanks for having me yeah appreciate you guys must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star casino or 18 plus and present in

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