The McShay Show - Emptying the NFL Draft Notebook With Albert Breer

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

Welcome back to The McShay Show! Today, Todd is joined by Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer to talk all things 2026 NFL draft. The guys discuss Fernando Mendoza’s meeting with Tom Brady, the best prospect fits in the top 10, and much more. 0:00 Welcome to The McShay Show 2:10 Latest draft intel with Albert Breer 4:45 Behind the Raiders decision making process on Fernando Mendoza 16:05 What are the Jets doing with the #2 pick? 25:40 Expect the Cardinals to draft Arvell Reese at #3? 36:35 How will the Titans draft around Cam Ward? 44:10 John Harbaugh's first draft pick with the Giants 49:00 Potential targets for the Browns at #6 54:10 Draft intel on the Top 15 picks 1:07:35 Don't be surprised if... The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/MCSHAY Host: Todd McShay Guest: Albert Breer Producers: Tucker Tashjian, Conor Nevins, and Daniel Comer Social: Jon Roemer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mock drafts are flowing. Buzz is swirling all around. And we've got Albert Breer here, one of the great human beings and insiders in this business. We're going to talk through the first round of the draft. We're going to find out what he's hot on right now. And this is a special episode we're excited to share. Guess what?

Just 15 days till the NFL draft. Mench isn't with us today. He's grinding out reports, but I know he's good. Tucker, roll that beat, please. Hey, there he is, as promised, Albert Breer. Bert, how you doing, brother? I'm doing great. How you doing, Todd? Good, good.

I can give this long speak. You and I have been like weirdly directly and indirectly linked since like our early 20s. Like you knew guys that I grew up with like the canals and the demarcuses. We lived in the back bay of Boston together and kind of didn't even really know at the time. We both moved around the same time to the south end. And then now we're like two towns away in the south shore. And our son's going to the same football clinics with the M2PB. That's right.

You're listening to the McShay show presented by Fanduel, and soon we'll all be listening to all the names called in this year's NFL draft. But with Fandual, you don't have to just listen because Fandual has all kinds of bets on where players will land. You know I love this stuff. Not only can you bet on who will be drafted first overall, but you can also bet on whether a player will go in the top five, top 10, and so much more. So if you don't already have it, be sure to down. download the Fandual Sportsbook app today.

Must be 21 and older in select states 18 plus in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-800-800-9-7777-7. Or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. I don't know if I'm chasing you, you're chasing me, or just it's a coincidence. Yeah, I still remember. I think I was like at, so I lived in Hanson Street in the South End. me and my wife did that we had our first our first kid there and um you know and and i remember

like running walking into there's like a coffee shop on the corner of i think it was on like shaman and um on shaman on the corner of shaman and hansson and i was like walking down there i'm like holy crap todd like i had no idea you lived here and so i didn't know you lived there either so and then sure enough like a couple weeks ago i run india at m2 which is the passing academy up here and your kid's a quarterback, and my kid is a little fifth grade tight end. He's not little. He's not little.

He's like as tall as me. Yeah, he's got good length. He's got good lovers. So, yeah, he'll, yeah, we'll see where that goes. But yeah, like that was just, I mean, what was that like three weeks ago? Wasn't long ago. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, we've had a bunch of weird chance encounters like that for sure. But we've always been kind of working together. and I've always enjoyed our conversations. Like every draft it feels like for, I can't remember more than a decade, you and I've gotten on the phone a couple times. I'll give you credit to you and DJ are the two guys. Like for me, like where at the beginning, like I'm coming out of the Super Bowl and I, and you can verify this.

Like you two are the guys I always call as like, okay, like I need to get caught up. Like now I've been sunk in the playoffs for the last five weeks. And I've got an idea of who the great college players are. But like you guys have been so invaluable to me. and kind of getting me caught up and all of what's going on with the college players and everything else. And so we get you started

and then you close the deal for us with a lot of the information stuff. So let's get to that. I'm curious because this is the time of year, right? You got to kind of sift through as you've got a really good strainer of like what's real and what's not. Get the owners meetings

and conversations you're having daily. Let's start with the, Let's start with the Raiders, okay? And then after that, I want to just find out it doesn't have to be the second pick, third pick. Like, what are you hot on? What are you hearing? What's most interesting to you? But let's, what has been, I feel like when you know the pick in this far in advance

with the Raiders and Fernando Mendoza, everyone, it wasn't just similar last year. The only question about Cam Ward, it wasn't about, oh, he's this kind of player or he's this kind of fit. It was, are the Giants going to offer enough to move up, you know? Right. Yeah. which they tried and it didn't happen. And the same thing with Mendoza this year,

except everyone knows there's no offer they can be made. Brian Greasy, who I worked with for several years, a close family friend. Like he's been working with him, you know, in a non-official role, getting him from Mendoza prepared and obviously with the Shanahan and the Kubiak ties. But what do you know about the process?

Like what led them to Mendoza? Like no question about it. He's our guy. Well, the Raiders, I mean, like really this start. in the fall for them. And, you know, it wasn't, it's John SpyTech, it's Brian Stark, it's Brandon Hunt, Brandon Yergan, all these guys working and scouting with the Raiders. They had an idea.

We may not be great this year in 2025, and we may be in position to go and get a quarterback, so we better go and look at everybody. And so, like, there was a lot of boots in the ground over the course of the fall. And it's actually interesting, you know, John SpyTech, their general manager, really kind of dug in at the end of the season on on on on on on on on on on on on on see him in the weather, you know, on a Saturday at Purdue. And then they saw him in the Peach Bowl against, against Oregon. And then they saw him in the national championship game, of course,

as everybody knows, against Miami at Hard Rock. And so, you know, they'd had eyes on him for a while and getting to see him there. And at the same time, they were doing a lot of the same work on, on Dante Moore. And so there have been a number of quotes. But I think by the time they got to that point at the national championship game, really the two guys that they had looked at said like, yeah, we'd be comfortable taking this guy in the top five were Fernando Mendoza and Dante Moore. And so then, you know, of course, they're diving into. And they didn't know their draft slot at that point. And they didn't know their draft slot at that point. But you had an idea you're drafting, you'd be drafting pretty high.

And so it's like, these are the two guys that really kind of, I think, stood out to them. and so, you know, like they're going through that process and everything else. And, you know, then as they're digging into the tape of both these guys and looking at all the Dante Moore tape from UCLA and Oregon and all the Fernando Mendoza tape from Cal and Indiana, because that's how it always works now, right, Todd. There's always multiple schools to look at with these guys. You know, I think it crystallized for them. And then, of course, Dante Moore decides that he's going to go back to Oregon. for his fourth, fourth college season. And so,

and so, which was a great decision for him, but you do it, you have to kind of wonder, right? Right. And I think it's a long process. At that point,

like I think it's just, it's not that they're going to stop looking at the other quarterbacks, but it's like now it's like, okay, like we've really got to get to know Fernando. You know what I mean? Like, and make sure that all of the background work that we did in the fall

checks out. And so, there was a, you know, there was, of course, the 15 minute formal at the, combine, which they went through. And there's only so much you can get from that, but he checked the boxes there. And then actually from the owners meetings, they, you know, SpyTech and Kubiak

went straight to Indiana for Mendoza's Pro Day. And I'm, I don't want to miss any of the names here, but it was Brandon Eugan, the college director, their assistant GM, Brian Stark, you know, the, the vice president player personnel, Brandon Hunt, the offensive coordinator Andrew Junoco, the quarterbacks coach Mike Sullivan all meeting meeting SpyTech and Kubiak in Bloomington. And they do a whiteboard session with them. They see him work out with his teammates.

They go to dinner with them. And then of course, you know, this week they have the 30 visit. They've done one Zoom. And they have two Zooms left. And those, I think, as you might imagine, are going to kind of double

as an install with him. So you can hit the ground running there in May. So like I think they've had the idea for a long time that it was going to be Mendoza, really going back to Dante Moore going back to school. Yeah. You know, to me, I think the important part for them was, okay, we've done all this research. He seems like a great kid, the physical tools you like. And there's a lot to look at here where you say, okay, like, you know, works his ass off.

Is the personality different? Yeah, but he's so comfortable in his own skin, you're okay with that. I think what was the most significant thing about the thing. 30 visits probably getting face to face with Tom Brady, you know? And I was going to ask, so what does Tom's role legitimately in all this? So I can't tell you all the nuts and bolts of like everything that he's done. But I feel confident saying he's looked at the tape. And he was obviously there in person.

And you know what scouts look for. I'm sure Tom was looking for the same thing. When he was on the ground in Miami there in pregame, they're looking, how do they interact with their teammates, right? Like what sort of leader are they in game? like you're looking at like a lot of things that aren't happening between the lines. You know what I mean? Like so I think with Brady, I think you might have been one of the first people that actually

said to me that you thought a lot of like Mendoza, the makeup, the story. I think you were the one of the first. Yeah, yeah. We talked about like December, I think. Like Brady will identify with it, right? Like, because it's like he doesn't, he's got good, not great physical tools. And, you know, he really had to fight to find his place in college football. And then he gets there and he and he crushes it and he's able to compete for a championship.

And he has the work ethic and the drive and all that stuff that Brady, I think, would really identify with. What I would be interested to see. And I think this is going to wind up, you know, and I'm planning on, I'll do a big story in the draft on their whole process. Would I be really interesting to hear about at this point that I don't know would be in that face-to-face with Brady yesterday? How does that was yesterday? Yeah, it was yesterday. Oh, wow. How does the, how do the personalities mesh?

You know what I mean? With Brady and, and Mendoza, because I do think for Tom, he's acutely aware of how important the locker room is, you know what I mean? Like in the makeup of the locker room and how the quarterback fits in the locker room. And so nobody knows more about that than Tom Brady spending, you know, 24 seasons and in NFL locker room, or 23 seasons in NFL locker rooms and, and with two franchises and with different types of guys, different makeup of teams,

all that different stuff. So I think that that would probably be, in my mind, at least the last box to check. Because I think when you get to those final couple of Zooms, my guess would be that's going to be guys like Clint and Janoco actually installing the offense with Mendoza. I had a call with a head coach in the league right after the season.

And oftentimes if I'm going to talk, to a coach is like right after the season, getting involved, and you have quarterback need, maybe not taking one, but going to do the due diligence. And he said one of the first things he did with Mendoza was, he's like, I saw the interviews. He's like, during the season, he's like, I'm not diving into these guys.

I see some of the games, but I see some of the interviews and he's a different cat, right? I've got a little bit like the Kirk Cousins type, you know. Like just happy to be alive and comes off as different. than your normal quarterback interview, as we've all seen. Yeah. So I actually, the first thing I did, I wasn't even watching, he's like, I put on some tape and I was watching after incompletions, interceptions, him getting hit, big plays, him taking

off running. I was watching, he goes, legitimate he goes, I'll go back and like really dive into the, you know, the third and sevens and the cutups, right? He's like, I was, I just spent like 30, 40 minutes watching the country boys. and the city guys. Yeah. Do one of them interact, which I thought was interesting. Do one of them interact more with Fernando?

And he's like every single time, the reaction is exactly what you want from both. If you've been in a locker room, you know, you've got this group and you got that group and everyone's like this. But maybe sometimes. So that was fascinating to me. That is really interesting because that shows a guy

who can break down those walls, right? Yes, yes. And that everyone, it doesn't matter. matter what your background is. So Ty Simpson was never involved, because I feel like that's become kind of the story of this draft, whether manufactured or not. Yeah, I don't, I don't think so.

You know, like, doesn't mean they didn't study him. I mean, he was part of their study in the fall, you know, like when they were going through all of it. I don't know that he was ever really a factor here. It sounds like it would have been a Mendoza more discussion. Yeah, and like, this was not, I mean, for the Raiders, I think the, I think the risk you take with talking about the Raiders, like, and their process is that, like, if you say, like, they had a pretty good idea of which way they were going in January, it makes it look kind of like the last three months have been a coronation. And that's not really the case either. You know, it's more like they did so much work in the fall and they were so far down the line that it was like, okay, like we have an idea of where we're going here. It doesn't mean we're ruling anything out. You know, of course, there's the opportunity to. to trade the pick that would come along and those calls get made and everything else.

But, you know, I think as much as anything else, it was just, I think conviction that this is the best guy. And look, like I would say this, too, Todd, like two years ago, it's exactly what the bears did with Caleb Williams. Like the bears were trying to wrap up their process with Caleb Williams by the beginning of March. Like, they actually initially had his 30 visit scheduled for the day they got back from the combine because they wanted to have it done so they could start installing the offense with him.

Right? So the bears in a similar spot. Like, you know, it was just kind of like, okay, like, we need to, we need to get this rolling early and get ourselves in a position where we know what we're doing, you know, and, you know, so, you know, sometimes because so much of the public doesn't really dial into this stuff the way that you do or I do to some degree, not nearly as much, but but the public isn't really dialed into this stuff, you know, until like March. It's like, it looks like, oh, well, did they, is this just them like, you know, you know, put a crown on the guy. And it's, there's a whole lot more to it than that.

So let's transition now. That's, that's information that the Brady, like the Brady just had a call yesterday. And, you know, the process. I think the whole thing is fascinating. I find here's what I find interesting is you transition to pick number two, right? Yep. With the jets. Early in the process, I had conversations with people that I trust that are kind of dialed in.

And it's always been this debate. Do you take the bird in hand or do you take what could be like a cyborg, you know, Micah Parsons, talking about Bailey, who's the proven pass rusher. You know what you're getting. Not great versus the run. You're going to have to kind of work through that. kind of develop that part of him, scheme it a little bit. But at the end of the day, these pass rushers are getting paid,

second most amount of money behind quarterbacks in the league, not to be great run defenders. It's to get after the quarterback and get home. And that's what he does better than any other pass rusher and player, defensive player in this draft. Yep. Then you get Rvel Reese and you look at like, man, he just started rushing the quarterback.

It was a first year as a starter. He picked up everything Patricia asked. We had Scott Goldman from AIQ who works for a lot of teams for like the, they call it intelligence testing, but it's kind of like reaction and what they can process. And he said he like Arvel is like like a rare bird when it comes to his ability to multifunction and like to be able to play some off ball. And so all of those things in mind.

A couple months ago, my information was they're going to take Bailey, right? Because it's proven. You know what he is. even though Ravelle may have a higher upside. But then you started all the information, you know, I even talked to someone in the organization and they talked about how we traded.

Everything's 2027. Yeah. We traded, we actually made that deal with, was it Indy? I forget what, no, Dallas. Cowboys did the Cowboys. They offered a, they offered a first year. It was the Cowboys, the Quinn and Willie. Williamson.

They chose to have a 27 first. rounder a 26 second rounder instead of the other way around that was in the negotiation right initially it was you could take a first this year and they they work to get that for next year right so you start to think well maybe they take 2026 develop um reese and then you kind of that's that's what you started here now it's back to and it's not like not not really a secret it sounds like if if the information's right that david bailey is going to be the guy at number two is that where you're hearing what what do you Yeah, I actually talked to a couple of teams that almost talked to, like, it was a fate of complete. Now, we'll see.

You know, the information gets better, a little better as you get closer to the draft and these guys are coming out of their meetings. But, you know, there's an interesting, like I would say, way to tie this to Aaron Glenn's job security too, you know, is that, you know, like I think, if you look at Arvel Reese is a little bit more of a project and a little bit more of a, he's going to be pretty good for you right away. but you may have to wait a year or two to get the best out of him versus like David Bailey is out of the box going to be a really good pass rusher for you. I'm not saying Aaron Glenn's doing this to save his job, but do you naturally look at that? Like we need somebody to help us now. You know what I mean? And we need to make sure the, and not even just a job security thing. It's like continuing to engage the locker room where you're able to get them better results because you're playing better as a team.

let me ask you this there's some i listened to the way that people talk about david bailey and it hit me the other day that it kind of reminds me a little bit about how people talked about aiden hutchinson huh and how so hutchinson it was like just a demon as a pass rusher plays really hard explosive but like does he have the play the frame to hang out to play against the run that way. Yeah, long linear, yep. Yeah, and I don't know that is it not great for as athletic as he is. He's not one of those like change, like redirect quickness like outside.

Like he's got a little bit of tightness tall. So yeah, but so I mean like, my gosh, does he find a way to get home? And you see it with Hudson when he's healthy. Glenn had Hutchinson. You know what I mean? Like so like I just sort of look at that and like how the lions. over those years really had trouble finding pass rushers outside of Hutchinson. And if they didn't have Hutchinson, God, what would they have done to get after the

passer the last few years? It was really, it wound up being perfect for them that that was a guy they really needed. And they struggled when he was out. You know what I mean? Like so you're talking about an organization that just walked away from Germain Johnson and Quinn and Williams. And, you know, yes, you want the guy who's going to be best for you for the next five years. but based on the position that they're in, you know, as a coaching staff,

and then, you know, how that relates to Darren Mojee, who's probably got a little bit more rope than A.G. has. Does that push you in the direction of Bailey, you know? So I mean, I actually had a really interesting conversation, Bert, with someone who knows, let's put it that way. And I was just, I was curious about, so what are the just going to do if it was a follow-up to what I just told you? Like I got the information that, like, the organization is so committed to, as a couple others are, the 2027 quarterback class. And so my follow-up was, okay, if that's kind of the mindset, who's quarterbacking this year, and like, what are they looking for?

And the answer was someone that's going to be competitive enough that the fans don't riot. Yeah. They win enough games. And there's, and someone who's get some leadership. some ability to come in, kind of hit the ground running, but also someone who's not going to win too many games where they have to package too many picks to go up and get a guy, you know. And so, and then like it felt like moments later, you know,

they get the perfect guy and Gino Smith. And so that kind of tracks with, we got it, we can't, this year can't be like an NBA tank that I'm already seeing on get up this morning. They're complaining about like, how do we change the draft lottery? and, you know, like, it can't be that level in that market and things and heads aren't going to roll. Well, dude, you're speaking to the choir on that too, because I just think, or preaching to the choir, like, I just think, like, a lot of people look at those sorts of things that are like, well, why don't they just throw in the towel on this?

It doesn't really, that doesn't work in football. You know what I mean? Like, you can't. Unless you force someone to stop playing because, I mean, your play, I mean, how many of you, no, but how many of your players, you have to think about it from this perspective, if you're trying to understand the way a coach or GM thinks, how much of your roster has no idea what team they're going to be on next year? A lot.

I go through that free agent tracker all the time when I'm looking at team needs. And it's like there's like 15 guys that this is their contract. They know they're on the team next year. And so every game is a tape. Right. And so the other 31 teams. And so and that's the thing about it is that most of like the great. majority of the locker room doesn't give a shit about your three-year plan you know what i mean like

you have to sell to them like i'm going to put you in a position to succeed as a team and maybe more importantly as an individual so you can continue your career right now like i'm going to do that for you right now and that's what erin glenn and frank rike and all those guys are facing now is like all right like they had their year where it didn't go very well and there were all kinds of issues that first year and now are these questions going into year two and god is the heat going to be turned up if they're o and five or oh and six yes like how do you keep the team on board and like i think the reality of it is like if you're just thinking about it from the perspective of the people in that building and it's like like and look the people in detroit speaks so highly of erin glenn as a leader and

what he's capable of being a head coach and if you really believe in what a g is trying to build you want to give them the tools to try to establish that in New York. Right. And if the second pick of the draft is a project, then that becomes a little harder, you know? And so there's a real life component to this where it's like we have to find ways to provide hope for our players, where our players know, you know, not only is there a light at the end of the tunnel in 27 or 28, but we're going to be competitive this year and we're

going to give you a chance to compete at the highest level this year. And Bailey probably does that more so than race. And that's the thing. It's like I'm fascinated by Reese because I think that there's like and you and I have talked about this, that that new genre of player that's like this hybrid. I think Michael was sort of the four on. Not that we'd never seen it before, but you know, like the Micah Parsons, Jihad Campbell, Jalen Walker, Abdul Carter, guys who've played on the line and off the line.

You need to have a plan for those guys. You know, it sounds great. Like, oh, you can do everything. Yeah, but what is he going to do for you, you know? And, you know, they've got, you know, I think with David Bailey, at least it sounds to me from the people I talk to more like, yeah, everybody knows what they're going to do with him. You know what I mean?

Like, there's no mystery in what you're going to do with him. Whereas with Arvel Reese, there is a bigger question when it comes to that. Well, we're on Arvel Reese. So now the player that a week ago or two weeks ago, maybe you thought wouldn't be available at number three for the Cardinals. the Cardinals also have a needed offensive tackle. I'm also told the Cardinals are hoping the phones ring and could maybe move down and acquire an additional pick.

They have a quarterback need that people are talking about maybe they trade back into the first round or they sit there at what, 33 or 34 and go Ty Simpson there. What do you think, if this is how it plays out, we both believe strongly that it will? Is it Arvell Rees at three? I think so. I just think it's a big need for them.

And look, like, I think, you know. I do too, just so you know. Arvel Reese would have been, I think Arvel Reese would have been a really good fit for Jonathan Gannon. And it's easy to forget that his defense is still there. You know, Nick Rollis is held over as the defensive coordinator. So they're effectively going to be, they're effectively going to be running the same defense they were running before. You know, we've seen Jonathan Gannon and that defense. and Nick was there in Philly when they had to be creative with a guy like Hassan Reddick and move a guy around, you know?

So I think I think that there's definitely a place for it. You know, Connor Orr, who's my, you know, who I do, who I podcasts with at SI, work with at S.I did bring up a good point. And I hadn't even thought of it this way. Does the Cardinals have sort of failed with hybrids over the last 10 years. And does ownership bring that up at all? because wasn't saving Collins kind of that way? Wasn't Isaiah Simmons definitely was not the same ball on ball, but as a same?

The eighth overall pick. Right. So like is there, it's different guys in charge, right? But does that become a little bit of a factor there? You know, where, you know, they took two guys in the first half of the first round that were sort of these hybrids, like, what exactly do you want them to be long term? And they both sort of failed, you know? know, like so I, that's, that's the one caveat I'd put on all of this, is that is that in any way,

any sort of factor? And they've had success over the years with hybrids too. I mean, I think Honey Badger was probably a good example of it in a different way, right? But, you know, I just think it's an interesting element to the decision of whether, whether or not you take a guy like this at three. Does Reese being there make, add to the trade value? Because it feels like from where I sit, it would. Even though we're talking about Bailey and you know what he is. I guess it depends on like how big you see the drop off between Reese and Bain, right? Like or whoever your next pass rusher is.

I think Bain would probably be the next guy. And Bain doesn't fit anybody. Everybody. Have you heard anything about Arizona moving out? I think everyone, I think most of the teams, obviously not counting Vegas, I think most of the teams in the top five would seriously consider moving out. Maybe every other team. Have you heard of anyone that,

Is there anyone that you're hearing up? No, not yet. Not yet. Yeah. Yeah. It's early. I think that'll that'll crystallize as we get closer. But you know what I think the problem with that is right now is that you don't have like the prototypes, right?

Like you don't have the Miles Garrett, Julius Pepper's Jedevi and Clowny defensive end. You don't have the Julio Jones, A.J. Green, Calvin Johnson receiver. You don't have Joe Alt at left tackle. So what are you going up for? It's a hard enough pill. It's a hard enough pill to swallow. Yeah. I promise you.

Knowing that if I draft Jeremiah, I love him, we'll get to pick four in a minute. He's, what, the seventh, eighth, highest paid running back in the league

and a position that I don't want to be spending that much money. It's hard enough to draft a safety in the top 10. We've seen great guys. Hamilton goes, what,

14 overall, I think it was. Yeah. Ramsey falls to, what, 18? So, like, it's hard. enough to use a top 10 pick on off ball linebacker, safety, running back, you know?

Right. I mean, the two best players that draft might be a running back in a safety, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and maybe the third one could be an offball linebacker converting to, to edge that you're not 100% sure of. We just talked about that with Arvel Reese. Yeah. And I would argue maybe the fourth best player in this entire drive or one of the top four players in this entire draft.

I've got him number two over my board. I wouldn't take him number two overall, but I've got Sonny Stiles as the number two player in this show. I am more convicted in Sunny Stiles than any other player outside of Jeremiah I love that he's going to be an absolute sensation in the league because of how multiple he is. But to trade up for said safety,

off ball linebacker, conversion player running back, is like, I don't know how you can stomach that. Yeah. I mean, so let me ask you this then. would the 23 Lions be an interesting case study to look at what they did because they got killed for taking Jemir Gibbs and Jack Campbell in the first time? That was one of my favorite fights to push back on because I just I love their draft and everyone was just murdering it. Yeah, they got killed for it and like you look back at it and I'm like Brad Holmes.

I mean, I love the simplicity of it. They're the best players. You know what I mean? Like Gibbs was a home run at 12. Yep. and Jack Campbell's first team all pro this year at 18. And then even in the second round, they wind up with Sam Leporta and Brian Branch,

who are both like high-end players, you know? So, I mean, there is like that piece of it too where it's just like, do you take a pass rush or you have questions or reservations about, right? Or do you take a safety or a linebacker or a running back? You're damn sure is going to be really, really good. So it brings us to, to pick four.

If it's real quickly, if it's not Rvel Reese at three, because of maybe some of the reasons we just talked about, the conversion player, their history. I mean, you're kind of like Maui Noah then? Maui Noah, yeah, that's where I would lean. Here's my question with that.

So, like, you always try to look at where these guys are coming from, right? So Michael Affleur is coming from the Rams. The Rams a few years ago really leaned in on, two areas and said we are going to just keep stalking these areas. Those two areas were offensive skill and defensive front. Front. And if you see like this year is sort of a correction to that and the way they've gone in on corners and going and trading for Trent McDuffie and signing Jalen Watson. But for a long time, for a few years there, they really focused on drafting and developing offensive skill guys. So that's Kyron Williams, Blake

Corum, Terrence Ferguson last year, Puka Nakua. And then on the defensive front, the amount of guys, they just, hey, keep feeding it. You know what I mean? Like so it was, it was Braden Fisk. It was Byron Young. It was, you know, Jared Verst. It was Kobe Turner. Like they continued to feed that.

And I do look at that. Like the Rams have sort of had an approach over the years. And Mike LaFleur is also coming from San Francisco with Kyle Shanahan where he spent a bunch of years. where those two teams outside of the left tackle haven't invested a ton on the offensive line. Like they've picked their spots, but you haven't seen them invest. You've seen them try to get away with less on the offensive line at times. And they already have Paris Johnson at left tackle.

So do they double down on the offensive line with that high end of it? It would be a little bit against the way, it would be a little bit against the philosophies that Michael Flores. been most exposed to. Yeah, I tend to agree. And I just think there's a different grade. And I think Maui knows the best tackle in this class. I think he's, if you take him, I don't know, seven, eight, nine, ten that range, I'm like, good.

But not when those other players are still on the board. And Arvel Reese is one of those other players. The McShay Show is brought to you by Fanduel. Do you guys know that you can bet on the NFL draft with Fanduel? That's right. You can bet on everything, including which team will draft which player, over unders on draft positions. What position a team takes first?

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from here, we've got it. Trouve to little enterprises like this on

on our own on website I had an interesting conversation with in its publics

this one was we had it on the show Mike Borganzi the general

manager who's of the Tennessee Titans he was with the chiefs

for a long time right and I wouldn't share this unless it was

on our show but I gleamed from it some interesting stuff I

I brought up this, because I've had this theory for a long time. If you go back and study, whether it's at the Polion with, they got Peyton Manning and everything was about getting closers and defensive, we got to get. And I talked to Bill when he came to work to ESPN, he's like, once you get your quarterback, he can make up for 10 other guys since. Right. You've got to, there's no, there's no Peyton Manning on defense, so we've got to load up on that side.

And I've watched the Eagles over the years. I've watched the Packers. I've watched the Ravens. I've watched Kansas City, which I brought to his attention. I had to kind of remind him the year after they got Mahomes and they were sure that he was the guy, they had six draft picks because they had to trade up to go get Patrick. And all six were defensive players, right?

And so all these really good high-end organizations have shifted the focus. So I asked them the question about Cam Ward. You got your guy. You bring in Brian Daibel, who I can't think of a better person to develop them, especially knowing, having the conversations with Brian. I think publicly it was known how much did he like Cam. And then loved Jackson Dart as well.

He was pushing and he was driving that bus to send all the compensation. He told a funny story, Borganzi, did the day bowl, like cornered him at a pro day. And was like, listen, I'm telling you, Abdul Carter, man. What a great player. You know, like, you're going to want to take him and trade back. We'll give you a lot here. Anyway, with all that said, I said, so is your mentality, to kind of fall in the footsteps of what you've seen

and really focus on the defense. And I wasn't even asking about this fourth pick. But he's like, yeah, you got to, he's like, go back every single one of those. Bill had Marvin Harrison and Bill had Edger and James. And we had, we had weapons. We had Tyreek. He's like, it just so happened that it was time to reshape the,

or reshift the focus of the defensive side. Yeah. I'm saying all this because I remember Schaefter came out and was so adamant about, they're not taking Jeremiah I love at four. Prior to that, I had Jeremiah Love mocked there. I kind of dug into my information.

I know Brian pretty well. I know how influential he can be when he's a dog with a bone in that draft room. And I just, I thought Jeremiah Love would be not just a rushing element, but also as a pass catcher. And even Borganzi was like, protection, play callers and playmakers.

And so now I'm back to, I don't know if that information was accurate or not. I just think Jeremiah loves the best thing as an organization you can do for Cam Ward. So I think it's interesting the way that the running back value thing has swung back around too. I thought it was really interesting two years ago when you had Derek Henry, Sequin Barclay and Josh Jacobs out there in the market. And it just so happened that it was the Ravens, the Eagles, and the Packers that some, sign those guys. And I remember thinking at the time before those guys ever played it down for those teams, that's interesting that three teams that are not, there aren't idiots running these teams.

You know what I mean? Like these are established organizations all went all in at the very top of the veteran running back market. And basically, I think what they were saying to everybody is this position has been devalued to a point where now it's a value, you know, because Sequin Barclay costs you, if you're Philly, what Darnell Mooney cost Atlanta, which is crazy to think about, right?

But that's the reality of it. And so I think the value of the running back's been reconfigured to some degree. Like you mentioned Borganzi, like Borgo's old team in Kansas City, where did they just do? Like, oh, Andy Reid doesn't invest in running backs. They signed Kenneth Walker.

You know what I mean? At the very top of the market, the Super Bowl MVP, at the very top of the running back market. So, you know, I do think, I mean, to me, like, I just, it's hard for me not to connect this to what Todd Gurley meant for Jared Gough when he broke out under McVeigh and 17. What Zeke Elliott meant to Dak Prescott in 2016 when he was starting as a rookie in Dallas. I mean, even what, if you want to take this back to Dayball, what Seekwon was able to do for Daniel Jones and how important Sequan was. to steadying DJ. And I think there's so much of it.

Like, to me, like the value of guys like that, like this is the, this to me is the new mold for the running back, right? It's, you can play all three downs the way Marshall Faw could. You can run between the tackles like Adrian Peterson. Now, that's not to say every one of these guys is a combination of the two, you know, but like there are elements of both and a lot of these guys now that wind up going in the top 10. If you look at the seven or eight guys who've gone that high over the last dozen years.

And so what does that guy do for a quarterback? to me, he gives you easy completions. So that's part of it. But maybe more important, he gets you in second and six and third and two more often. Yeah. And you're on schedule. And so as you know, Todd, and I think the easiest way to put this to the listener is, if you're in third and 11, the offensive playbook is like this and the defensive playbook is like that.

Right. If you're in second and six and third two, then the offensive playbook is like this. like this and the defensive playbook is like that you know yeah i'm sorry to the people listening i can't see my my my my hand motions but basically i think they can insinuate yeah yeah effectively effectively what i'm telling people is if you're in second and six and third and two your offensive playbook is wide open and that's going to make things so much easier on you in developing your young quarterback and so like i just see like somebody like jeremiah i love and it's like he's going to help you put points on the board he's going to create easy completions for

your quarterback. He's going to keep you on schedule. He can affect so many different parts of your office. He makes your offensive line better because you're in less obvious passing situations when he's in the field, you know? And so like I just- He averaged over 10, yeah, we're looking at the scouting report right now. Yeah. It's the ringer.com slash McShay. Have you gotten on this tool yet, Burt? I need to get on it. Yeah. Get on it today. It's your homework assignment. It's, we're proud of it. We're excited. The next time I get on, I'll be fully versed in there, I promise. But he averaged over 10 yards per catch, too, which like I do, we ripped through all these running back.

I probably did 28 running backs. Very few average over 10 yards per catch in college. Not to cut in, but like it's to the point where when I ask scouts now about Judarian Price, they're like, well, we didn't see him catch the ball a lot, but it's not really his fault because they had love.

Right, right. They were like, like that was best for the team was to throw to this back, not this back, you know, so we don't know that he can't do it. It's just they didn't ask him to do it because they had somebody who was so freaking good at it.

And Jeremiah, I love you didn't get the chance to do it as much. So that leads me to this, because I feel like we're all kind of in that. And I'm not saying it's definitive and who knows what happens in the next couple of weeks. You're talking about Tom Brady just meeting with Mendoza yesterday and Zoom. Like there's a lot that can still happen. But if these four picks kind of play out the way we think they could, I think one of the most intriguing decisions with a new head coach in John Harbaugh, with an organization that's trying,

and I've talked to so many GMs over the years, like their first draft pick, you know, either with a new coach or they take over an organization. There's a, it's not just picking the right guy, like he's going to help our team as a player. It's picking the right guy to kind of set a tone. And so I'm sitting there with the Giants,

and we've got a bunch of tone setters and really good players. I don't think it's going to be Caleb Downs, but I want to get your information. I think it honestly will come down to two guys. And you tell me if you're hearing different. I think Sonny Stiles would be my pick and the Ohio State linebacker. And then Maui Noah, who we talked about, the big physical right tackle, who moves well, but he's a right tackle, you know, if you're doing the old traditional,

he's a right tackle type who played his career at right tackle at Miami. I think it comes down to those two, and I'm curious if you're hearing anything or what your thoughts are. So, like, I think Stiles makes a lot of sense for them, makes a lot of sense for Washington. So I think this is right in the range of where Stiles goes. You know, and the off ball linebacker's been a really important piece for John Harbaugh over the years. They've always had a really good one, right? Bringing in Tremaine Edmonds, does that affect, you know? I don't think so.

No, I don't think so because I think it's more like that's been a bedrock guy for John Harbaugh over the years, whether it's Roquan Smith, you know, obviously C.J. Mosley, Ray Lewis at the beginning of his time in Baltimore, he's usually had a bedrock guy there. The one thing with Maui and Lella here, and I agree, they have to get the offensive line right. but from what I understand, they just re-signed Germain Illuminor I know. I know. A million dollars a year.

And like my understanding on Aluminor is he sort of views himself as a tackle, you know? So would he be willing to go inside to guard or do you look at it as we'll move Maui Noah inside for the time being, knowing that he's eventually going to play tackle? You know? Right.

There'd be some moving pieces here. Downs is interesting to me though, because like just like again, like I'm looking at John Harbaugh's history, which is the best guide you can have in these situations. And when he and Wink Martindale reimagined the Ravens defense back in 2018, when Wink got promoted to defensive coordinator there, one of the biggest pieces of it was we want to play defense like other teams play offense.

In other words, we want to dictate terms to the offense. And the way to do that for them was we want to be as flexible as we possibly can right up until a snap. And the biggest piece of that for John Harbaugh was having a heavy safety. It was having Eric Weddle there, right? And then they go from Weddle, and then that winds up falling on Kyle Hamilton. And then you see some of the guys who came out of there. Mike McDonald, you know, winds up in Seattle. They draft Nickyman Worry to be that guy, right? And you look at Jesse Mentor and how much they put on Derwin James to be that guy in Los Angeles. And so so much of a key, defense has become, you know, one of the premier schemes in the league.

And you see other teams trying to replicate it. And obviously, John brings DeNard Wilson with them to run it. I just think of the football IQ of Derwin James and Kyle Hamilton and Eric Weddle and Nicky Eamon Worry for all of them, but Eamon Worry, but Eamon Worry had traits that. Yeah, right. And even worse, I'm not saying bad, but good, but maybe not quite the other level. Yeah. What's Caleb Downs number one trait?

Oh, absolutely. You know what I mean? He's truly one of the smartest players I've ever evaluated in 26 years of doing this. And that's the two, like, to me, like that styles and downs like are green dots for you, you know? Like they're like they're both capable of being the green dot on your defense and probably early in your career. And so like both of them makes sense for me with the Giants. You know, Maui Noah, again, like they have to get the offensive line. right. That's such a huge part of what they're going to do.

So I could certainly see a scenario where just wanting to make sure the offensive line gets fixed could wind up winning the day. But I do think like just the football IQ of the two Ohio State guys of downs and styles and what they were able to do and what was asked to them last year playing for Matt, Patricia, is going to really endear them to John Harbonne and his staff. I think we know every, I think with Cleveland it's six. transitioning here. We know it's not quarterback. I think we know

in a perfect world they would get the best combo. It picks six and 24 of wide receiver and an offensive tackle. We talk a lot about combo picks. You know, whether it's a first and second round pick, in this case it's two first round picks. Yeah. How you have to

kind of assess the situation at each positions that you're looking at, right? I get it. I get it that Spencer Fano is the soup de jour, right? And I get the relationship, you know, and I get the emphasis they've put on the offensive line.

And quite frankly, I applaud Andrew Barry. I really do. Let's fix what needs to be fixed up front first before we start, you know, talking about a Ty Simpson or whatever it is. I just don't know that he's worth the sixth overall pick. I think Cornell Tate is worth the sixth overall pick. But then you run the risk if you're playing the, combo game of so who's who's left when we get there and i'm looking at it and i'm saying well

cleveland really needs a left tackle if we're being honest right and and and he's got the traits in terms of the athleticism fano does uh but the short arms and he's played he played i think 11 starts his freshman year and then the last two seasons has been a right tackle loamu who will be available later in the first round he's played left tackle freeling i don't know if he'll still be there at 24 Monroe Freeling, the Georgia tackle, has played left tackle. What are you hearing on this? Like the Tate versus Fana or possibly even Maui Noah if it's one of the Ohio State defensive players at five for the Giants.

So do you think like, I mean, I don't know, do you look at this and say if Maui Noah is there, it becomes academic for you? It's easy for you. So where are we playing them? I guess right tackle because they just paid the guards, right? So they just paid. They just paid Kevin Jenkins.

They just paid Zion Johnson. So I would think like that you're probably playing whoever comes in. I would guess right tackle. Now, I mean, what do you do with Dewan Jones is a question. Like I, they've got so many moving pieces. I just feel like for them, if this is me, right? Yep. If there's a offensive lineman worthy of going there.

there, like, I think you really have to consider it regardless of position and just figure it out, you know, because they've had such a hard time getting there, you know, so, and trying to fix that area. And obviously the Jedrick-Wil's thing and what happened there, I think they had a cascading effect over the years. So, like, I look at it, like, do I have a better chance of getting a really good receiver or, and this is just to your point, right, or a really good tackle at 24. Am I just crossing my fingers that Freeling's going to be there at 24

if I'm taking Cardinal Tate at 6? Yeah. You know what I mean? That sort of becomes the problem, right? I think it's going to happen to this wide receiver class in general, to be honest with you. I think there's a bunch of good receivers.

I really do. Because you don't have a Julio. I think Tate is the, I don't want to say the only true first rounder, but he's the guy that it's like, for me, stamp them, you know? And six isn't too high. Anything below 10 is a steal, right?

Mackay Lemon, there's some things that, like, yeah, I'd like to get them later in the first. Jordan Tyson, there's some things. And he's one of the most polarizing players in this draft class. I mean, I've talked to teams that don't like him at all. Like the thing he's sound like. I've talked to teams recently that have second round picks. I've had talked to teams that are like, yeah, I'd love to have Lemon, like, late first.

But I've also talked to teams that are like, yeah, it's those three guys. I mean, just to me, it's like, like, Tate seems to be the one that the people are most, there's a better consensus on if that makes sense, right? Yes. With Lemon, I think it's more a conversation about his ceiling. And I think with Tyson, it sort of feels like it's more of a question about his makeup, right? That's the way it feels to me. And the durability and, yeah.

I mean, I personally think, I think there might be some teams that think Omar Cooper is the second best receiver in the draft. You know? Yes. That may sound crazy. And I think it's going to be a tougher decision for the Rams at 13 than people maybe think. And I think both Mackay and Cooper are great fits for what Sean wants to do if they wind up going receiver there. But I've also talked to teams that have a second round grade on Cooper, too. Right.

So my point is, we've got seven offensive tackles. We got a slew of edge rushers. And then we've got those like 11 guys at different positions that are kind of at the top of the board, right? So it's going to be interesting to see with those wide receivers. It feels like Washington at seven is going to wind up kind of benefiting that one of these great players is going to feel. Yeah. Like if Jeremiah Love doesn't go four or five, which we believe he will, he could be sitting there. If Caleb Downs doesn't go.

I think he's the parachute for Washington. I think Sonny Stiles probably is the most likely to land there. But, but Stiles would make a ton of sense for Dan Quinn, like the big, long athletic, like, I mean, you know, like basically whatever, what Pete Carroll's defenses have always loved in linebackers, guys who just can cover ground, you know, like to me, Sunny Stiles would be a perfect fit for Washington. in.

And then I hear I think Edge could be in play. The Saints are kind of in, you know, Rubin Bain would make sense to the Saints at 8. Yeah.

Let me ask you this. I think, I think Delane has started to play to show up in this area. I think Delane and McCoy. I think Delane could go as early as eight. I actually think some teams

now have McCoy higher than Delane. And I think, think team and I know teams have delaying higher than even the public perception right like I think he's could be gone I think both those guys could be gone in the first 12 ticks oh I think they will be yeah I'll be because I was looking at last night like since Cincinnati we always said they just said they have needs all over their defense they really if you look at it they really need a cornerback or an edge right right so that that's pick 10 I don't we'll get to the chiefs in a second we can kind of end on the chiefs I don't think the chiefs would go cornerback there, even though they had the departures,

because I think they have other things in mind, but we can talk about that. They also trust, I mean, one just nugget there, and we'll get back to them. I think they really trust the ability of Steve Spagnolo. I totally agree. To develop that position, you know, and I think it bears out. It's why it was a huge factor in why they let Trent McDuffie go. You know what I mean? Was they love McDuffie, A plus person, A plus player, all of it.

But they had to make choices. And one of the things that was really, I mean, between what they have was Steve Spagnolo and Dave Merritt, like their ability to develop the corner position, like, they feel really strongly like we can find guys to play that position. It's an important position. But, you know, like, if we're looking at investing in receivers or edge, like, that's one place where we feel good we can get guys later on and develop them. So I'm looking at this with New Orleans at 8, which I'm,

I think Bain is a possibility, but I'm with you. I think cornerback makes, it seems to be where they could go. I've heard both Delane and McCoy, so we'll see. I think it's absolutely now, it becomes interesting. If Bain's sitting there at 10 is that their edge, and it certainly could be, but they also could take the other corner. I think Miami at 11 could take a corner. I know Dallas would love to have one,

but I don't think either of them gets to 12. I actually don't know that either of them gets to 11, is the point I'm trying to make. How much does McCoy not playing last year like affect how you look at him? Teams were scared to death before that pro day. Yeah. Well, why isn't it?

You know how he goes. Right. This is what you do for a living and you're as dialed in as anyone I know. Yeah. Like, who he's not competing. And he's got that agent. And then that agent, like,

and look at what happened with, with Shamar last year. These are the conversations of him happen. And so now we're going to deal with that. And I haven't seen compete. He hasn't competed. since January, since last January, like 20, 25, you know? So, like, we're talking 12, we're talking 14 months, you know?

Yep. And then he goes and runs in the four-threes. And it wasn't, the four-threes is great. But from people I've talked to, it's like, it was, it was like an epiphany, a reminder. Oh, my gosh. The way he worked out, the way he moved in his, the position drills, that 23 tape and 24 tape. And we've seen another, like Derek St.

kind of mailed it in his last year. So it was a concern. I'm not saying it's not, and it varies from team to team, but I think right now the stock market is like, you know, with McCoy. Yeah.

It's interesting with McCoy because I think a big part, he's somebody, like, for the reasons you laid out, the process was more important for him than a lot of other guys in that, like, I think a lot of people looked at him as like, this is a raw man cover corner. And you aren't sure how much more he can do. And so the testing, the interviews, all that different stuff, I think we're going to be ways for teams to try to figure out what his capacity was

for all the other stuff. Whereas I think with Delane, it was interesting talking to people about Delane because like he wasn't as good at Virginia Tech, right? Yeah. And there were some questions. It was like sometimes he looks like, lazy's not the word. but it like looks easy It was like

Is he that fast And then he runs 4, 3, 8 or whatever it was And it's like no, he's just that smooth You know what I mean? So I think both these guys have helped One guy, let's just boil it down real quickly One guy is very clearly They're both fast

One guy is like your prototypical oily hips Man to Man sticky coverage that's McCoy. He's a better athlete. If you're just testing the athlete. The other guy is one of the more instinctive corners you'll ever see, but also really fast and also really good in coverage.

His ability to switch from man to man to zone from one play to the next. And like the Belichick, the Belichick Sabin principle of like, if you ever listen to them, talk about DBs, like their biggest trade is when the ball's in the air, how do they react? Is it easy speed or are they, If they're out of phase,

and Mansoor Delane is phenomenal in that regard. So again, I think they're both, there's a chance they're both top 10 picks, which leads me to my last question before we get to the final thoughts. If Caleb Downs doesn't go five, is there a chance he falls all the way to 12? And I'll follow up.

in a second. I know, I know we both have a love for Caleb Downs. Yeah. But I'm just trying to separate what I watch on tape and what you know in Ohio State Grant and all that. Is there a scenario he falls to 12? Sure. Like I think that's possible.

And is that the parachute? Just because, like, I, it's so much of it comes down to not the player, it comes down to the position and how you value the position. Right. I mean, for better or worse, there are people who are going to look at him and say, we generally don't take guys that high at that position anyway.

Like Kyle Hamilton was the 14th pick in the draft. Derwin James, I think it was 18. Now he had the injury. 18. But I think he was 18, right? He had the injury. Hamilton had the slow 40. Right.

But you have. And Downs doesn't have a 40 and he's probably not, he's probably a 45 guy. Right. And if you look at those guys, like Derwin James and Kyle Hamilton are like, you know, build a play. You know what I mean? Like they're totally. Right. And like they're like so so Caleb Downs like the the questions for teams is going to be like

because they're always looking at comps, right? Like, and I think that that's the big thing is like for example like Ruben Bain, right? Like I was talking to a team the other day and we were talking about Ruben Bain how you like kind of have to figure it out with him with the arm length. Like do you have to move them around and create matchups and that sort of thing? And so I asked like is there an example of a guy with, you know, under 31 inch arms that's made it as a pass rusher? And they're like, that's the problem, you know, is that we are like, and that's analytics, right?

Like, it's like we're looking back through our history and we just can't find one. And, you know, so I think that that's sort of the issue with downs. It's like how often does a player at his position with his dimensions go that high? And so I think for some teams, that's going to scare them. Well, it's 20 years, 20 years with that arm, like, and I don't think people went, but I just read the research, 20 years. And 20 years from what I read, I haven't confirmed it, but 20 years since we've had a double-digit sack guy in the league. Right, right.

So like, and that's what you're looking at with Downs is like, okay, he doesn't have a 40, but you suspect that maybe he's not 4-4, right? Yep. He is not 6'3, the way that Kyle Hamilton and Derwin James are. He's a great player. But if you're going to make an exception and take a safety in an area where you normally don't take him, and then he's not an exceptional athlete. Like, then that be, now, now you, now you, now you got a bigger picture, you know, question,

which is like, can we take him that high? Right. And I think Caleb Downs is going to make Pro Bowls. Like, I, I've never, I don't know if I saw him. I watched him, obviously, every snap for two years. I'm not a scout. I want to make sure that people know that. I don't know if I ever saw him as a tackle.

You know, in the game against Miami, I believe he forced two fumbles that just bounced right back and bad luck you know what i mean like yeah but he made game changing plays in that game that like and you just saw it over and over again there's a hit against northwestern his sophomore year at rigley um where he ran in the tight end you might remember this the tight end who is much bigger than him six six whatever stopped yeah that was like i remember watching like that hit and then you see the hit against texas that ends the game and it's like like he is so fundamentally sound and so smart and so dialed in and such just a freaking good, probably the best football player in the draft.

I think the thing that teams grapple with with him is more is what you see, what you get. Is there no growth left? You know, and sometimes that can be a problem for teams when they're drafting that high, especially at a position that isn't corner or left tackle or edge rush or receiver. Last one. and you just talked about his name. If I start to worry about Bain, like just for,

if he doesn't go eight in his corner there, and if, well, is the chief's going to do something crazy? Like they typically have, which seems crazy at the time, and all of a sudden it's an all pro player? I'm going to throw an idea out at you.

Okay. What do you think about Kenyon Sadie and Sadiq there? I don't think it's the craziest. I mean, what you hear about Kenny and Sadiq is, like, great effort as a blocker, but probably never going to be like your Y tight end. He's probably more of an F tight end that you're going to have to move around, right? Yep. And who has a role, that role sitting in their offense for someone in a year?

Right. You know what I mean? And then who better to scheme up away with both Kelsey and Sadiq and. For the time being, right? Yeah, for the time being. And, like, I just, like, look at it. And I've just heard so much stuff about Sadiq where it's like, you don't see tight ends like this. And it almost like, I almost feel like there's like a little Shannon Sharp here, you know, like, and the sort of player he is, like just kind of like rocked up.

And he's not six, six, six, he's six two, six three, whatever it is. But, like, he's such a weapon and you can use him so many different ways. And if you have those questions about the receivers, right, like the. there's not a superstar there. Like even Carnal Tate, who's the most complete guy, like he never had to be the number one guy, right? Like he always, like, he was never the one that was drawing coverage. Yeah.

It was Jeremiah Smith. You know, so if you have those questions about Lemon and about Tyson and about, and about Tate, and you're looking at it, you're saying, does Kenyon Sadiq have a better chance to be a top five tight end than any of these guys have of being a top five receiver? Do you just swallow hard and take him at nine? That's interesting. Yeah, and I think it was a Schrager yesterday, had Jordan Tyson there,

and I'm talking to people in the lead. And he even said, he's like, I got a text from a GM and he was, you know, like, I don't think he goes in the top 20. So, like, it's fascinating, like beauty, beauty's in the eye, the beholder this time of year. But that's, that's, I think that's the thing about this year's draft is like what it lacks and I think what it lacks in like the prototypes, right? Like the guys who are built in the lab to play the position, right?

Like the Joe Alt at left tackle, the Miles Garrett at defensive ed. Because you don't have that. I think there's so many variables in the top 20 that could, you know, throws a lot of drama as we, yeah, I agree. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're looking at, that's Sadiq there. And it's the other cornerback to, to the Bengals at 10. I mean, Miami could be sitting there with Carnell Tate still on the board. The Cowboys could be sitting there with Caleb Downs still on the board, you know.

It's interesting. All right, let's finish. This is how we always finish it. Menches with us, I should have, I think I did mention in the open. Mench's, we're in crunch time. So Mench is grinding out his last handful of players. So we gave him the, not the day off, the day off of coming on here so that he could finish up. But this time of year we try to finish with, and I'll get it started so you can brainstorm.

I don't like to dump this on you. Don't be surprised if. Okay. It doesn't have to be something you're sure of, but just like, don't be surprised if. I'm kind of, I'm going to go with this. we talked about the wide receivers, right? And I think the wide receivers are going to go a little bit later as a whole. I think they're going to be bumped back a little bit from what maybe the early thought was,

where it's like, oh, we've got Carnell Tate, we've got, we've got Lemon, we've got Tyson, they're all going to be top 15 picks. And then we've got the second wave of Denzel, Omar Cooper and Denzel Boston and Concepcion and all these guys, right? I think it's going to be backed up for all the reasons I just mentioned with the kind of ten, 10, 11, 12 players that belong at the top and the top 15 picks. Then you got offensive tackle, the remaining offensive tackle,

and edge rushers. And so to my point, I haven't seen two names mocked recently or anyone in over a month talking about these two names. And I still think they're first rounders because I think the league,

the league, as we just discussed, values, size, big guys, length, and pass rushers and guys that can develop. right? And when you get into the bottom half of the first round, you're talking about playoff teams that maybe don't have this urgency or don't have, and that can get, can utilize a player in a certain situation as a rookie and develop them because maybe they have a starter, but he's coming up on a contract, whatever it is. Keldrick Falk and Zion Young.

Okay. Auburn and Missouri, respectively, are long, athletic for their size, play their asses off. Right. Their tape is, and Falk didn't have the great year we expected from him this year. So I put on the tape and I was expecting, well, maybe he was like a contract year. That guy plays his tail off. Zion Young is a certified lunatic. And I mean that in the best way as a defensive lineman. Right.

I think those two guys, when we get down into like the mid-20s, teams are going to look and say, like, I love Cassius Howell. I love Denzel Boston. I love all these other guys, wide receivers and some outliers and all that. I just, I want an NFL football player. I think those guys could go. So don't be surprised if, even though you haven't heard their name, Falk and Zion Young are two guys that come off the board late in the first round. I'll throw it to you.

I'm much more. Yeah, so, no, that's really interesting. You know, the one thing I was talking to somebody about Keldrick Falk yesterday, and they started describing them. And the name I thought of was, was, was Dio Oden Yingbo, who, you know, played for the Colts, plays for the Bears. Now it's hurt last year. But like, you know, the point was like has to be a scheme fit because he's kind of a tweener, right? Like he's bigger than your typical end. Like, do you play him inside? There's not a lot of, like, I don't think there's a ton of evidence

that he can play as a deep tackle, but maybe he can play some. Pass rushing some. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, you're projecting a little bit there, but, you know, that's interesting. And I do think size becomes a factor. All right. So I've had to think some about this. I would say don't be surprised if there are only two quarterbacks and only two running backs off the board as we go into day three. I think it's possible that I don't disagree. Huh? So I think. I don't totally disagree.

I've heard that from another. Yeah, the dies cast, we know that that's, he's the first pick. I think Simpson goes somewhere in the second round. And I think that that could be it until you get to the fourth round. We've seen that before. There's a trend over the years with this, like, where. where quarterbacks go in the first, a ton of quarterbacks go in the first round.

I don't have the numbers in front of me. I could get them for you. But I did look this up last year. Quarterbacks go in the first round. They don't go in the second and third rounds. Well, why is that? Because if they go in the second, they usually go early in the second.

Right. Yeah. Right. And the reason why is because you can only play one of them. Right. And so either a guy is going to be a long term, you either view a guy as a long-term starter for you, right? or you're not taking them in the second or third round

because there's somebody in another position that will be. That can be a nickel corner or a number three or four receiver. In other words, it's like there's not like a rotation of three guys to that position. So he's either playing for you or he's not. And if you do view him as a long-term start, you're probably just going to take him in the first round, right? Right. So that wouldn't surprise me.

I've also, like the more I've dug in on the running back class, you've got the Arkansas kid, you got the two Penn State kids. I just outside of outside of the two Notre Dame guys, Jeremiah Love at the at the top of the first round and then Judarian Price somewhere in probably the first what, 50 picks. Like I just, yeah. I don't sense much going on with any of them. I can see that.

And last year's running back class was absolutely sensational. One of the best we've ever had. Go back to like, I forget the year. It was a 2017 with McCaffrey and Fournett and all those guys. there was only six running backs taken in the first three rounds. And then 20 of them came off the board on day three. It's wait for the run to happen at that position. You outlined the quarterback exactly, but wait for the run.

It's almost like, hold, hold. Like I'm going to get my other guys. And then when it starts to happen, I like five of them. And they all can do something that helps in our rotation. For sure. I think you're absolutely, that won't shock me at all. the hard part for me is this with the quarterbacks

the running backs I'm on board the quarterbacks you know the nationalist right national blesto the scouting list right I think the number one overall grade and take that for what it's worth but I'm just saying like the perception

of Garrett Nussmeyer coming into the year he was like if not the number one he was certainly the number one quarterback so you've got that and an injury filled year now he's healthy and people really like him And obviously, at worst case, you're getting a great backup who's been around the game his whole life and his dad's an OC. The other part is you've got two developmental guys that I know some teams are really intrigued by and if they land in the right spots.

But where do I want to take them in Cole Payton? And Taylor, Talen Green, yeah. Green from Arkansas, Peyton from North Dakota State. I'm telling you, these guys, if they landed with an Andy Reed or a McVeigh or a K-O-C or, you know, Harbaugh, McDaniel. they could be something really intriguing. But I got to get a swing tackle. I've got to get a fourth edge rusher. I've got to get a number three corner who could be a starter.

I got to get a number three, four wide receiver. So that's the debate. I don't disagree with you. But this year's going to test that. And Carson Beck, too. Go ahead. I want to ask you a question on that on Garrett Nussmeyer, because he's really interesting to me.

If you look at how you viewed Garrett Nussmeier at this time last year, Is it similar to how you view Ty Simpson now? Oh, 100%. And I said this before. I'm glad you brought this up. Ty Simpson's tape for the first nine games. Bert is exactly what I thought Garrett and Usmeyer was going to be this year. Pre-snap, control, on schedule, footwork, timing, urgency to everything he does.

Anticipation throws. Okay, now we're moved. Okay, let's check, check, kill, kill. Let's move this guy. coverage got you balls out that's what I thought that's what Nussmeyer

was trending towards in 2024 he was never healthy and no one ever no one knew the extreme of it he got injured in fall camp and they coach gets fired all that all of it I think he can

now is he going to be this high level great starter like history tells us those guys are bigger or more explosive and all those things but Nussmeyer, yeah. I just wonder about that because it's like if he didn't like, I don't know, it's like you almost feel like in a case like that, are you penalizing the guy for going back to school? You know what I mean?

Like maybe he actually benefits long term from the experiences that he went through because he did get knocked on his ass. You know what I mean? And now he does have to evaluate that, which is like comes back to that whole principle, the golden rule over 25 starts, right, like for quarterbacks, like which like I just, I just, I sort of wonder about that, like, is, would Ty Simpson if he had stayed in school have gone through that this year, but he will never know. You know what I mean?

Like, I just think those are always, but also, like, the, like, the, where's Ty Simpson going to get the improvement that Cam Ward got from Incarnate Word to Washington State to my, people forget. People really forget. And it's like this amnesia. Cam Ward was like a third to fifth. He was like a fifth coming into his Miami year. Jaden Daniels was a third coming into his last,

after his first year with Kelly at LSU. Joe Burrow. Joe Burrow was, this first year at LSU, I did a couple of his games. I sat with him, me and greasy and leaving. He was, he was all right,

he was all right, you know, but then his last 2019, he was sensational, 2018, 2019. Um, that and team, like, you now have this luxury of NIL money and transfer portals where quarterbacks, there's no excuse not to go back because history tells us. And then you got tie.

You know? And that's the thing is like, it's just, it's hard to find very many examples of guys with, you know, the volume of starts. And there's a zillion reasons why, you know what I mean? Like I think that there's, it's very real and that like, all right, like, now everybody's got tape on you. Everybody's had an offseason to study you and what the weaknesses are. And now, like, you know, whereas you were really good in one area, you know, over the course of your first eight starts, well, now, like, the defense is going to know what they have to take away from you. So now you have to learn how to counter punch, you know.

Mendoza's tape was really hard to watch at Cal at times. And I was like, I came out and I was like, this guy's got first round potential. Like he really truly, like, I love so much about his game. but he ain't ready. Like, his turnover worthy, play real. Like, if you go up and watch the number of mistakes he made and force. Now, it was with Cal and that supporting cast against superior opponents. But to see what he did from that year, his second year, not full second, it was a full-time

starter in 2024. He had started games in 2023. So you come back that second year, as you said, and defensive have tape on you. And so you as a quarterback have to rinse, refine, repeat. is what I talk about all the time. But they as coordinators now have this time, like, okay, there's tendencies. So now you come back to that third year.

And it's like, all right, you got a beat on me. Now is a 21, 22, 22, 23 year old. I'm going to get a beat on the things that you tried to do to beat me. It becomes this chess match over three years in a perfect world. But that's the NFL, right? And so when you come to the league, you're like, all right, I had my first year where I was just out bawling. Then my second year, I took some lumps because they figured out my tendencies and all that stuff.

Then my third year, I'm a grown-ass man. I'm smarter than you in your mind. And that's what my tape should be, like Mendoza, like Jaden Daniels, like Cam Ward. You know what I mean? Yep. We'll never know that with Ty, and I swear to you, it's why teams are like, I can't invest. I see what he can be. I saw those first nine games.

He was better than Mendoza up until November 1st. Yeah. Now, what I've heard he's told teams is that, like, getting to practice against Nick Sabin's defense. Yeah. For two years or whatever, I think it was two years, right, that he got to actually. And it did.

It helped him. And that's why he was so advanced when he came in as a starter. I get that. But it's not that. And yeah, he grew up with football in his hand. And he was dad's practices. Dad's a 20-year coach at UT Martin and head coach. So, but yeah, it's a big gamble.

And that's why I don't think unless Arizona tries to get up and make sure they secure them late in the first, I don't foresee. I don't foresee a team with an existing pick taking Ty Simpson. And I'm high on Ty on Ty than most. I don't see a team with an existing pick taking Ty. I think the problem with Ty and I know we've sort of metastasized this into a separate a conversation. But like I, I think the Ty Simpson thing to me, and I think that this is, I think you're

right. And I've heard you say this. So, you know, I, I think you're right in that, like, what I'm, what I'm getting from teams is like a little bit more, like, yes, you see Ty Simpson do more NFL things on tape than you see Fernando Mendoza do on his Indiana tape. The Indiana system was very RPO heavy. And a lot of times because they've got the great receivers between almost. Mark Cooper and Charlie Becker and Elijah Surratt, things are going according to plan, right?

Like you're throwing to number one a lot because things are working out the way they should versus like Ty Simpson has to throw more guys open and all that different stuff. I think what people make the mistake of doing sometimes is looking at it and saying, well, this is about like what they've accomplished or how they perform. That's part of it. But this is more about where they're going. And, you know, I think that that's the thing is like, When you listen to the comps, like the comp I like for Mendoza, I don't know where you're at on this,

but the comp that I like Matt Ryan, I like golf. I've heard God, but golf was prepared to Ryan. I'm totally fine with that. Yeah. Same, same sort of thing, right? And like, you can win with Jared Goff. And there was a lot of, like, upside with Jared Goff when he got to the pros because he had come from one of those offenses that was RPO heavy in college, right? Yeah.

Versus, you know, what? what Ty Simpson is, which the comp I've heard for him is Brock Purdy. And these are ceilings, right? Like, but. Sealings, yeah. But, but, but I mean, like some people will look at Brock Perth and say, well, that's it, you know, and do I feel comfortable taking Brock Purdy in the first round? And you as an organization have to hit lightning in a bottle because, because how many, how many times,

how many opportunities are there where you get drafted and Kyle Shanahan is, is your head coach. And you're throwing a George Kittle. And you're throwing to Kittle and you're throwing to – McAfrey and McAfrey in your backfield and the offensive – So – Debo at the beginning, yeah. Debo in the beginning. Yes. So, yeah.

Yeah. I think we're – I think there's been highs and lows and lows and lows throughout this process with Ty Simpson. But I think the most rational people are kind of meeting where we are right now. And that can be a great thing if he finds the right spot. For sure. I still believe in him. But I don't think a team with some of the risks are willing to – spend a first round pick on them if they don't have to.

This has been fun, man. There's been a lot of fun. I didn't expect to keep you this long. I apologize. No, this is great. This feels like a conversation on the phone. So that's good sign. We can check that box.

But I'm sure we'll be back on the phone in about, I don't know, seven, ten days and trying to figure this thing all out. I usually give Mench five stars. He's not here. So five stars to you, Bert. We'll talk to you soon. Absolutely. Thanks, Todd.

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