The McShay Show - FLASH MOCK! Plus, Building a College Football Front Office With Former Eagles VP Jake Rosenberg. | Rough Draft 1.7

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Welcome back to The McShay Show! Todd and Steve open by revealing the top 10 players on their rough draft big boards. Then, they hop into a quick flash mock to see how the first 10 picks might play out if the draft were tomorrow. To close, the guys are joined by former Eagles exec and cap expert Jake Rosenberg to discuss the future of college football and his new role with the Athlete Group. 0:00 Welcome to The McShay Show!3:45 Rough Draft: Top 10 Draft Prospects right now9:23 #1: Fernando Mendoza, Indiana QB9:40 #2: Arvell Reese, Ohio State LB10:02 #3: Dante Moore, Oregon QB13:00 #4: Jeremiyah Love, Notre Dame RB13:55 #5: Caleb Downs, Ohio State DS18:40 #6-#8: WR's Carnell Tate, Makai Lemon, Jordyn Tyson19:40 #9: Keldric Faulk, Auburn EDGE19:55 #10: Francis Mauigoa, Miami OT21:20 Takeaways from Todd's Top 10 Prospects23:40 FLASH MOCK!32:50 Browns trade up and draft Fernando Mendoza36:35 Raiders draft Dante Moore37:07 Titans draft Arvell Reese37:45 Giants draft Spencer Fano39:40 Saints draft Keldric Faulk42:00 Commanders draft Carnell Tate43:45 Jets draft Peter Woods45:10 Cardinals draft Jeremiyah Love45:35 Rams draft Caleb Downs47:13 Bengals draft David Bailey51:40 Jake Rosenberg joins the show next!59:28 Jake Rosenberg joins the show!59:35 How College Football front offices are built1:00:35 Jake's role in CFB program building1:06:33 CFB's growing needs for NFL style front office structuring1:10:32 How has CFB changed with the new role of General Managers1:16:35 How are CFB programs conducting their head coaching searches?1:18:33 What to look for in CFB General Managers?1:24:35 Are CFB programs resistant to change?1:30:40 Balancing players physical evaluations vs. financial valuations1:39:45 Managing portal vs. recruiting for programs1:45:30 How much does it cost for a CFB team to be competitive? Subscribe to The McShay Report for access to all of Todd’s mock drafts, big boards, scouting reports, and more throughout the college football season. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more and join waitlist at https://ScoutMotors.com.com Host: Todd McShayGuest: Steve MuenchProducers: Tucker Tashjian, Conor Nevins, and Daniel ComerSocial: Jon Roemer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Consider this your warning. Today's show may be a marathon, but it's also one of the most important shows we've ever done. So hang in there with us. We interview Jake Rosenberg, a man who is on the forefront of helping major college programs equip themselves for the tsunami that has hit college football with NIL and the transfer portal. And I'm feeling a rough draft in the air with just 133 days until the NFL. Draft. Mench, you good?

I'm psyched, man. Tuck roll that beat, please. All right, Munch. We got a big one today. Here we go. J. Rosenberg, the athlete group is going to join us. Awesome interview that we're going to share with our audience. And, like, if you like, or like most of us love the game of college football,

if you're interested in NFL general manager slash front office situations and how it all work, if you're interested in the ever-changing landscape of college football. This is, I said in the open, it's the most important conversation we've had college football related. I know it's not the CFP. I know it's not the matchups, the rankings, Fandual odds, and all that stuff. The McShay Show is presented by Fanduel. Fan Duel's got it all. Same game parlay's, quick bets for jumping in live, and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play.

Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandual app or head to fendool.com slash mcshay to get started. Must be 21 and older in President Select States or 18 and older in President D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Call 1-888-889-7777 or visit CCPG. dot org slash chat in Connecticut. But it truly is an insight that that is necessary in today's college football game.

And I'm excited to bring that. And I know you are, Steve, as well. The McShay report is out. We're about to, I mean, it's rough draft Thursday, man. And we just had the college football conference champions, championships. And Mendoza had an awesome game. And that's kind of the jumping off point. But today we're going to get to the top.

10 prospects we have, maybe a couple other things before we have the interview with Jake Rosenberg. But the McShay report is out. Google it. The McShay report. Subscribe. Be a part of it. We're kind of, this is like the soft launch to the 2026 NFL draft right now. And you're going to want to be with us along the ride. I think we've proven in one year behind the scenes, the buzz, the rankings. Like, I know I'm biased, but no one's doing it like us, Mensch. And people are starting to realize it. And I'm getting texting calls. And you know what? I'm proud of it and I'm not going to shy away from it.

And if you care at all about your NFL team, if you care at all about where these college players are going, you're going to want to subscribe to it. So whatever we do on the show today, I promise you it's going to be extended and probably double the content that you get on the show. You'll get in the McShay report. Okay.

All that said and done. It wasn't an epiphany, Mendoza on Saturday night against Ohio State. It also statistically was just, eh, okay. But it was for me the moment that I had been waiting for. And I want to bring people back without going very much into detail. But this summer, we decided to do a full breakdown in Mendoza. I was pushing back against it.

I was like, we get Clubnik, we got Nussmeyer, we got sellers, we've got Levitt, we've got all these big time program quarterbacks that are getting ready to have this unbelievable season. we'll get to Mendoza during the season. Let's see, he's transferring from Cal, Indiana. Dan and you, Steve, pushed back and said, no, we need to do something on Mendoza, and we need to do something on Mendoza, and I'm grateful that we did,

because it provided us a foundation for where they are as players and allowed us to see the progress that they've made this year. And we shared that with our audience. And at the time, I said, I told you, I was like, I'm not fully in love with them, but I'm in love with what he can be. And throughout the year, I was hesitant.

And as everyone else, Twitter Mafia, as you like to call him, is like, oh, Mendoza, number one overall, he's this, he's that, the other thing. I'm like, I'm not there yet, and that's okay. It's a long game evaluating college players, as you well know, Steve. I wanted to see him against that kind of defense. And we saw moments on the road, right? Iowa, Oregon, Penn State. Really good defenses, not necessarily all great teams,

but really good defenses on the road, where the numbers weren't as good as Illinois where he was like 23 of 25 or 21 to 23, whatever he was. He had other games where the efficiency was just off the charts. I told you I learned more, and I think you would agree from some of the moments

and overcoming adversity. Games on the line. How does he show up? And he kept delivering. But I still wasn't ready to go, chips all in on him. And it wasn't the best. statistical game.

But watching him against Ohio State and going back and watching the tape, some of the NFL throws, the extension of plays, the toughness after getting like Kolkock in that first, the first play from scrimmage by Curry, the, the, the, the, defensive end for, for Ohio State and bouncing back from that. And even the, the ridiculous interviews that he does after the game, I'm my favorite, you know? It's the best thing ever right now. It's the best thing ever.

It's like Kurt Warner meets Kurt Cousins. And it's like, it's just different than what you know, it's not this like, oh, shucks or like quarterback speak. And he's just authentically him. And you know what? It's kind of cool to be a nerd playing quarterback now. Because you know what? There's a lot of joy, man.

I love the joy. There's a lot of joy. But there's also as an evaluator, a lot of trust in that young man in his mental process. and that he's authentically himself. And I talked about general managers that have been, that are well renowned for doing the best drafting of quarterbacks in the NFL. I talk to quarterback whispers and gurus. I talk to college coaches and NFL coaches and quarterback coaches,

all of it, spend more time on the quarterback position than any other position. And almost to a T, the people who know evaluations of quarterbacks, best. One part of, in a sizable part of their evaluation is always, and it's surprising to me. It was in the beginning. It's not now. Do they know who they are? Are they authentically themselves? Because if they don't and they're trying to be something else, I got a long list of guys that busted when they got to this league because you can't fake it there. Right. And we know being in a locker room, if you're not, not authentic, you get, you sniff through that really quickly. So all of this is a backdrop, Steve. I thought, and you agreed, if Mendoza's number one overall, let's just go through the list,

who are our top 10 prospects? And I know you have your own list. I know ESPN benefits from that, whether they put your name on it or not. I get in trouble. You don't get in trouble in this show. So far. Let's keep it that way. All right. Let's keep it rolling. Keep it moving. Nothing to see here. I want to go through, and it's fluid right now. We still have, we still have the college football playoff. We still have bowl games. We still have the pre-draft process.

We'll be in Mobile. We're excited for that. For the senior bowl, we get the East West Shrine, we've got all the other all-star games. We've got the Combine. We've got pro days, individual workouts. We got the intel that we're getting, all of it to go. But right now I just threw together this list, sitting downstairs, last night. And I, and by the way, I got to 10. And I was like, but I've got four more, let's go to 15.

Then I got to 20. I got 70 deep on my phone last night. I just got carried away. I'm not going to share all 70 today. We've got plenty of process to go through. But I am going to share more than 10 on, I have shared more than 10 on the, on the Mixey report. And we encourage you, as I said, to check that out. and I want to go through the top 10 now, and I'm curious to get your reaction of what your top 10 would be and or where you think I'm crazy. Because some of it might be a little controversial. Number one, Fernando Mendoza, as I mentioned, from Indiana.

And that is brand new. Number one overall, Fernando Mendoza. Yep. All right, we already have something to talk about. Let's go. Keep going. Number two, Rvel Reese, linebacker, Ohio State, was kind of quiet by his standards in the Big Ten championship game, while others like Curry and Sunny Stiles really, I thought, had phenomenal games.

Kenyatta Jackson, too, the other edge. Yeah, yeah. Huge a game. Excited about that for him. Yep. Me too. Maybe a top 100 prospect. We'll see how it all plays out.

Turn some heads, yep. Number three. Number three. Okay. Who's number three? Just get out with it. Quarterback, Dante Moore, Oregon. Okay. All right.

I brought him back. Remember, all the intel, and there's one reason why I'm doing it, and his name is Will Stein. And he's now in Kentucky. And he's now, while he's going to coach as offensive coordinator for Oregon through the college football playoff, he is going to be the head coach of Kentucky once that run for Oregon finalizes. And most importantly, for this situation, he's not going to be the OC in Oregon next year. So all the intel that I got from scouts that I spoke to where it was like, yeah, man, like take him off the list, like get him ready for next year, talk to, you know, people, people have talked to mom and dad, talked to Dante, talked to his agent, talk to the coaching staff. He's going back to school. Now I don't know. And what also has changed from that point was he started off the season gangbusters.

Then he had a little bit of a lull. And I'm not saying it was all on him or that it wasn't or none of it was on him. I'm saying there were factors and losing top three receivers, four, if you include Evan Stewart from the preseason, factored into some of that decline in the midseason sputtering. But since then, they've kind of regrouped. They've still have injuries of wide receiver. But his play has gotten back to the level and some would argue beyond what it was early in the season. So you combine all those factors.

I don't know if he's going to be in the draft or not. I don't know if a decision's been made. We're fresh off of finding out that Will Stein's going to be coaching Kentucky next year. So we'll see how all that works out. But I do think it's important at this point in the process. Remember, January 14th is the date. And then there's an extension after that for teams that are still in the college football

playoff for underclassmen declaring for the draft. That's a huge date of your draft fan. we'll find out about all those underclassmen and then there's an extension, I think, like, the January 22nd or something like that. Because what is it? Is it January 19th is the... Yes.

The first. So they have like three days after that to declare, and then it's like three or four days after that. It will be the list of, the final list of underclassmen will be handed from the NFL and the advisory committee and that group that handles all this, to all 32 NFL teams, okay?

So that's... We're already starting to see some names come out, by the way. You see Peter Woods, Clemson, I think Emmett Johnson is running back from Nebraska. T.J. Parker. Yeah, a handful of names are coming out. So let's get back to the list. So Dante Moore, number three.

Number four, running back Jeremiah Love, Notre Dame. Okay. Don't like having a running back that high, but when I look at the rest of this class, Like I've got to remove the position. I just don't know that there are five, six, seven better football players in the country than Jeremiah Love. Could tell you them. Number five.

Yeah. Number one on my board. Really? Number one on my board. Yep. All right. I am. Yeah.

No, let me finish the top five. I have a real debate about it, but go ahead. Go ahead. Let me finish the top five and then and I'll stop down and you can, you can, you can. kind of we can have a discussion, and then I'll go six through 10, then we'll have another discussion. So Mendoza quarterback one, Arvel Reese is a linebacker, maybe some edge components from Ohio State 2. Dante Moore, quarterback, Oregon, three, Jeremiah Love, running back Notre Dame, four, Caleb Downs, safety, Ohio State been overshadowed for some reason this year.

I still believe he's one of the best five football players in this draft class, and we'll see how the workouts go and everything else. But right now that rounds out my top five. Take it where you want. I have Jeremiah love, number one, because it's basically the same things you're saying. When you take away positional value and just look at what he's done tape and production-wise, when I wish they'd get him more carries, to be honest with you.

But when you just look at the tape and how talented he is, I think he's the best player in the draft. I do struggle between him and Arvel Reese, the edge slash off-the-ball linebacker from Ohio State because I think Reese is probably, I mean, let's not kid ourselves. He's going to go earlier than Love because of that position and what he can do. I am stunned that you have Mendoza one overall, and I do think, let me explain why. I love Fernando Mendoza.

I've moved him to my number one quarterback. I'm not going to say that I haven't. I think he's earned that right. That being said, I still have concerns. I still have enough concerns not to think that he's the best overall prospect in this class and you know and you i know you have the same thing because we text you know we don't really text about what we're going to say on the show but we are always texting each other about what we see with players right yes that's that's that's you know that's that's that's in our DNA that's never

going to change and when we watch minosa we see similar things and tell me if i'm putting words in your mouth but sometimes the eyes are too quick to get to that's my biggest complaint right right when he doesn't have his first read and so those are the little things and i don't want to rain on the mendoza parade because i want this should be all celebrating for indiana I'm in Doza right now. That being said, there's reasons why I don't have them as the number one overall player on my board. But very similar, by the way.

There are two players that I have in here that you don't, that we can, I want to kind of see if they show up in your top 10. We'll go from that. Okay. Yeah. Listen, we have a long time to adjust these boards. I am, I am perfectly happy admitting that I probably, you know, recency bias and the excitement of all of it.

and I finally got to see what I wanted to see. I'm not saying he's a perfect prospect. I do, like the eyes dipping and some of, there's a quarter count with him when the read isn't what he wants it to be and when pressure starts to come that's concerning. There's no question. Yeah. And the beauty of this process too is like not only are we evaluating against this class,

but then previous classes and where would he stack up with, with Cam Ward versus a Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, Drake May, et cetera. So we'll have fun with that too. Well, don't tease. Where do you have them right now? I mean, you can't just say that and not not, where would you have? I don't know.

I'm not there yet, man. I'm not afraid. I would have them ahead of Cam Ward. I love Cam Ward. I'd have them ahead of Cam Ward right now. I would too. Okay. That's all you had to say.

But not ahead of the other three. Okay, that's fine. In terms of their grades coming out. I would agree with you. That's all you have to say. Don't run from it. I'm just trying to save some content. We've got months to get ready for this draft.

Yeah, we could change your opinion later on. It's fun. Six through 10. And hopefully this will help Mench formulate some stronger arguments. This is where I have a wide receiver run. And you might be interested in the order that I have them. I am interested in the order to have them. I'm done shying away from this receiver group.

I know it's got the most body beautiful or speed beautiful or all those things. I'm looking at three receivers that just reek of NFL. They reek of NFL immediacy. They reek of NFL production. Okay? I really believe that.

The more I watched them. And the hard part, too, is coming off of the grade in the preseason where I thought all these guys were good but kind of fringe later first, fringe first, you know? Yep. Because they're just better.

and they've made the necessary steps. And it's a wide, it's a past game driven league in the NFL. And I just think that their teams are starved for difference makers and playmaker guys who can come in and Emeka Abuk has hit a lull and has been nicked up, but give what a mecca was offering early on this season and provide what Tederoa McMillan. We'll see long term. I'm still not, we'll see.

But that kind of, that kind of production. Not just long-term, but, like, I need help now at that position. So here it is. Yep. Carnell Tate, six overall, number one wide receiver out of Ohio State. Okay. Mackay Lemon, seven overall receiver, USC, number two wide receiver. Number three wide receiver, eight overall on my draft board.

Jordan Tyson, Arizona State. So Tate, Lemon, Tyson. All bunched together. The workouts matter for this position and cornerback probably more than any two other positions. There's a lot of information and data points,

if you will, to still come in on all these guys. But if I'm just watching the tape, these are the guys that I think are absolutely NFL ready right now. And I'm not saying all three of them will go top 10. They probably won't. I'm just saying they are bona fide first round draft prospects and I'm done hiding from this receiver class. All right.

Nine. Edge. Caldric Falk. Auburn. Ahead of Ruben Bain. A head of Guy Bailey. I think he's it. Yep.

I don't hate what you're saying here. And number 10. Offensive tackle and maybe pro bowl guard. Francis Maui Goa. it's Maui Noah, right? I don't know. I looked it up last night and it said, yeah,

look at what Dan wrote. Francis Maui Noah. It wouldn't be the McShay show if I didn't mess up Maui Noah's name. Amazing. But I promise you, I promise you in February, March, April, I will not say it wrong. You will definitely have it.

That's just how, that's how I am every single year. And that's why I honestly, the behind the curtains thing Kuyper is absolutely brilliant with player names because he's got that photographic memory and so he would be my resource and I would never get a name wrong because Mel.

So I miss a few things from now. Mel, not all of them, but definitely that aspect. He was the best with that. So go ahead. So now you know it. It's Mendoza 1, Reese 2, Dante Moore 3. Jeremiah Love 4, Caleb Downs 5. Then you get three receivers. Tate Lemon Tyson, 6, 7, 8.

Then Keldrick Fott, the only edge in my top 10 currently from Auburn at 9. And then Francis Maui Noah, offensive tackle or guard at 10. And we saw last year those guards are tackle guard guys came off the board real early and a handful. So it won't surprise me if we see something similar again this year. I mean, where to begin? I mean, to have Maui Noah over Spencer Fano from Utah, the right tackle is banana land to me. And I like Maui No. Barely.

I'm not going to, I'll tease the McShay report. Barely. But yes, go ahead. Okay, so I should say this. I have the same. I'm overreacting a little bit, but I just think one's a tackle and the other one may be a tackle, maybe a guard. So that's Maui Noah from Miami. May you have to kick inside a guard.

I have the same grade on them. I will say that. I have Fano as a top five I have Fano as a top five player though I think and you don't have me your top 10 I think you're too high on the receivers I have not taken I am you would think that the people

listen to this show would give me more shit about a mecca of Buga after my take last year that he was a second round guy wrong he's been awesome I have no problem with that the Mackay Lemon hate for me is real the meanest things that have been said to me on X are about

McKin lemon I'm not joking. Good. I want everyone to know. I want everyone to know. Keep it coming. He is, he's firmly in the first round. Top 10 is, what are we doing now?

Like, we're just going to put this kid in the top 10 now. Yep. Let's see his frame. Let's see how he tests. He's a really good player. He's going to play early. He's going to be productive. Top 10.

Come on. Top 10. And I don't know. Would you draft a macula buke in the top 10? This is a conversation that I think. think it's worth having. If I knew he was going to Tampa in the top 10, maybe. Maybe.

I think that's definitely something I would consider. I think a lot of it's landing spot, and he landed in a really good spot for him, and now they use him. That's often the case, but yes. And we're going to get into this, because I want to talk about landing spots after this. We're not going to just talk about this in the abstract. We need an emergency mock or a flash mock. That's what we need right now. But I will say this.

I don't know how we're branding it. But I will say this. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. You want a flash mock? We have to. For the top 10, you have to, because it's a good exercise for you to see the three wide receivers going on the top 10 is highly unlikely. Next one's a flash mock.

Fine, let's do it. Let's do real world stuff, huh? Let's try to be in the real world. Hold on. Hold on. I know I've got them here. You want the draft order. Yeah, go.

Go. I can't wait for this. Got it. Got it. Keep this handy in the office every single. single day. Every week, print out a new one. Try not to change it on me like you did last time. Go ahead. Let me give you this order, but then I want to know what your top 10 would be. Okay. You jerk. Flash milk. Here we go. Giants would be the number one overall pick of the draft

were held today. New York Giants. Number two would be Las Vegas. Number three would be Tennessee, who had the first overall pick last year. Number four would be Cleveland. Follow along because this is very critical because a couple of these two of these teams in the top ten now that I look at it three of these teams in the top ten have two first round picks one of them has a pair has a couple first round picks next year too and all of those teams have varying degrees of quarterback need and Vegas sitting at two has quarterback need and I'm telling you that Dante more might wind up back at school and without Dante Moore in this class and if Ty Simpson from Alabama goes back to Alabama which I'm thinking there's a strong ground swell towards that.

It's Mendoza or bust. She's good for Mendoza's value. But also, if the draft order were today, it's great for the New York Giants, man. There's no choices. Oh, it's fantastic for the fans. They will get a bounty. All right.

So Giants won, Vegas, 2, Tennessee 3, Cleveland, 4, New Orleans 5. Tucker, I assume you're throwing up the graphic with me. Six would be Washington. Seven. That's eight Arizona, nine Atlanta, but that's the Rams pick. And that's right from last year. And 10, Cincinnati. Flash mock.

Try to drop that on me and say, who would be your, give me your top 10 then, big boy. I got Notre Dame running back, Jeremiah, I love Ohio State linebacker Rvel Reese, Indiana quarterback Fernando Mendoza, Clemson defensive tackle Peter Woods, who you seem to be out on. Utah offensive tackle Spencer Fanon, Ohio State Safety, Caleb Downs, Miami Offensive Tackle, Francis Maui Noah, Miami Edge, Rubin Bain Jr. And Auburn Edge, Keldrick Falk, and then, sorry, the 10th would be Oregon's Dante Moore quarterback. So you have three players in your top 10 that are not in mine. I can tell you.

And go read the McShay report. All three of those players are in my top 20. That's good. one of them is sitting at 11, one's at 14, and one's at 17. Okay. Don't guess. Just subscribe to the McShay report, and you'll find out. So we're not that far off.

70% is equal. Okay. Remind me, did you have a wide receiver in there? I did not. Okay. All right. So that's weird. I like these wide receivers.

Remove my three receivers and we have almost an identical list. But I like to make statements. I will point out one name that I think that is going to move up, and I am really thinking about moving up in my next update, and that's Washington's Denzel Boston. I think we are losing track of this kid for whatever reason. I think he is an absolute dude. Denzel Boston is in my top 32.

He is not in my top 20, but he's not. Go check out the McShay report. All right. All right, let's do it. Let's do it. Before we start, I am rooting for Vegas to get the first overall pick in this sense. I think it's very interesting. Do you stay put?

You need a quarterback. You need a quarterback. Do you stay put? Or do you entertain a draft? And what would it take for you not to take Fernanda Mendoza, knowing that he's the really only option? Because the Jets have a arsenal of picks. They have so many picks.

That'll be a fascinating thing to me. is whether or not the Raiders will be willing to trade back to not take the quarterback and build other aspects of their roster. You know what the most fascinating undercurrent of this entire draft will be, and we'll know for sure late in January once we get that official underclassman report, but we'll have a report. We'll know probably by January 14th or shortly thereafter if Dante Moore still playing ball for Oregon. This is the thing that we're going to talk about a lot,

especially if it's Vegas at one or if it's Tennessee at one or the Giants at one, a team that doesn't need a quarterback no matter what we're looking at here. If it is just Mendoza or even if it's Mendoza and more, are you more willing? And this is where advanced scouting in being ready for 2027 is going to be more important this year than any draft I can remember. are you willing to say Mendoza's my guy or Moore's my guy

I don't care what's in 2027 or are you more apt to double down gamble take a risk we saw this great quarterback class this year turned out to be not so great but next year what if it's Dante Moore

and Ty Simpson along with Lenore or Sellers who's found a new landing spot or rejuvenated his career at South Carolina because he might be the most talented of all of them. What if it's including Arch Manning who played really, really good ball towards the end of the season? Julian Sayan from Ohio State.

There's a lot of names that are going to be in that class next year. Yeah, Checkers versus chess. I think you did a great job of this with the lead up to the draft last year of when we did, we went to this exercise. and obviously we're not doing that yet. As we get farther along the process, we'll do this. And you would say, hey, Mench, if you're picking 17 and you're the Lions and then you're picking 17 in the second round, would you rather have this combination or that combination?

Let's kind of look at this in going towards next year. Would you take Mendoza knowing that the market for quarterbacks could be flooded and you could have a chance at a Jeremiah Smith when he comes out? Are you saying to yourself, we're going to get our quarterback now because I know there's going to be a lot of other talented players that will have a good shot at getting later on. I mean, that stuff's all very hard to, and you have to be very careful about it, about forecasting all of those things. Who knows? Maybe he goes back and stuns the world. There's all of these things that come into play. Maybe someone gets hurt. Like, you have to be very careful about it, but I think

it is interesting how teams might be approaching the 2027 draft as they are evaluating players of 2026. And do you purposely try to neuter the Jets? If the Jets are one of the teams that are interested. No, no, seriously, because they have multiple first and additional picks next year, right? So do you purposely try to neuter them? So yeah, come on up. Get Mendoza. But instead of giving me two first this year or something, give me your first this year, give me one next year. So now you're just one of the other, you know, and that put me in a position where I can then go up next year and get the quarterback of my choice or I'm in position. So it's going to be fascinating to see the draft management of all of this. Yes. Which teams are, like, if I'm the Rams, I'm like, shoot, I didn't know that, what is the 37-year-old Matthew Stafford was going to be played at MVP-type level?

Yeah. He's got, he definitely has another year in him. Like, can we take one of these two first-rounders we've got this year and somehow trade this, if we don't trade up for Mendoza, and we're sitting at nine with Atlanta's pick that we already traded for? Can we move off of that one? And will anyone have any interest? if there aren't quarterbacks to move up to nine for a different position so that I can, basically I want to push, I want to backload, I want to push that extra first round pick to

2027, knowing that everyone else in the league would like to push, well, there's a lot of good players. This is a really good draft. This is starting to shape up. 2027's got a chance to be historic, especially quarterback and wide receiver. All right. All that said, all of that said. Let's get into it. Giants a thing you want.

And here's how I want to do it. This is your flash mock creation last minute. I do have the picks in front. We always know the needs. So we're prepared enough, and now we have the updated board. Let's go through 10 of these picks, right? Yeah.

And instead of you doing one and me doing one, let's try to come to some consensus and we'll, you know, we'll just make it a TMS top 10 flashmock. All right. Giants picket one. In this scenario, do you agree or disagree,

that we should have them trade out of that spot. You have to trade out of this. Have to, right? Right, you're going to get something here. Jackson Dart. I mean, I love Jackson Dart's game other than the fact he's got to protect himself. But Jackson Dart appears to have a very bright future. You have plenty of holes on your roster.

You are getting out and taking advantage of the fact that other teams are quarterback needy, as you should. And the two other, so the three teams in the top 10 that I mentioned have two first round picks in 2026. Cleveland sitting at four, Jets at seven. and the Rams via Atlanta at 9. I think the Rams are going to be much more in the market to, can we trade out of that spot and find a way to get another first round pick next year? So they're going back.

They're not going up. I don't. And as it currently sits, I mean, they'd have picked 31 or 32 right now. But we'll see how the playoffs play out. They're going to have a pick in the mid to late 20s, if not early 30s. Yep. So trying to package that with something else to move up.

from 9 to 1 to get Mendoza, I just don't see less Sneed doing that. I'm with you, I agree. So now we're down to Cleveland at four and the Jets at seven. The Jets are sitting there and being like, you know what? There's all those quarterbacks next year. Do we want to move up? But what will it require us from seven to one?

I think, I personally think the most reasonable trade, given these circumstances, would be Cleveland going from four to one. Interesting. It might be a new general manager, might be a new head coach. I'm not buying for a millisecond that Shador Sanders is their long-term answer at quarterback. I'm just not.

Okay. I've seen others say that they, let's give them time. I just don't see it, especially if it's a current regime, although I would say the percentages of them both being back to general manager, Andrew Barry and Kevin Stefanski, the head coach, are probably slim. I'd also say that I do think I've said this before and I'll stand by it that I think the Jets are the most likely to do it because they have the most firepower. But the Browns have an interesting chip in Miles Garrett. And I'm wondering if that's going to finally run its course. No, no, no, no.

No, it's not. I would say this, why not? Because you can't trade Miles Garrett, who's about to set the single season sack record and gives you, and he is the reason why your defense is that good. I'm telling you right now, if you have a player who's unhappy and doesn't want to be in the building and you can't, listen. What would make a player happier than getting a, finally getting a franchise quarterback, finally getting the number one overall pick? I don't know, but he's been there before and they haven't done it right. And I'll say this.

Miles Garrett is, Micah Parsons is probably the number two edge in the league. Miles Garrett is head and shoulders above him. I want to be clear about that. But we heard last year that you cannot trade Micah Parsons. Look with the run that Dallas is on now. I'm just saying. I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying we're now creating all sorts of problems.

That's what I like to do. Let's go. We'll keep it moving. So what about Cleveland? Yeah, let's go Cleveland moving up to one. I think it's interesting. Keeps it simple for now. So we're swapping those two guys.

Maybe a new GM, new head coach, fresh start. But maybe not. We'll see. Okay. I wouldn't move on. from Sifansky, by the way. But that's just me. Yeah.

And I don't have a tie to CAA or whatever else that people are out there saying with certain people in the media. So if Cleveland's won, then the pick is Mendoza, right? Obviously. Right. Then the Giants would move down to four. We can get to them in a minute.

Vegas is sitting at two. It's got to be Dante Moore. I don't like the inexperience. But like you have to draft Dante Moore there. If Moore is in this court... In this scenario, he's in the class. then I'm with you. All right.

So that takes, let me jot this down. Mendoza's off the board. Dante Moore's off the board. Now pick three. Tennessee is sitting at three. Who would you choose there if you're the Titans?

Arvel Reese is really I mean, yeah. I think they'd be, yeah, I would go Arvel Reese because I think that, you know, technically, I think in their system as an edge, he would be outstanding. I would go Rval Ries.

I would too. All day long. All day long. His talent level is just different. And I honestly think he's just kind of scratching the surface. This is first year's a full-time starter. Yeah. Wild.

Wild. So now you've got the Giants at four with needs. But and I get in, and Malik Neighbors is coming back. But I still think in losing Malik, you saw the lack of true depths show up. So no wide receiver here? At four? Okay. Who else are you taking, Big Boy?

Spanza Fano from Utah, the right tackle. They have a great left tackle. Now you had a great right tackle. You solidify your offensive line for a young quarterback that has a hard time protecting himself. Let's make him take as a few hits as possible. I build teams from, you know, in the. the trench is McShay. That's how you're supposed to do it. I think Fano is the number five player in my board. You take them at four. That's not, that's, that's great for me. I mean, it might be

why the Giants try to move back even more to justify it. I, that's, yes, that's why I think they could entertain the Jets because if the Jets are willing to give them more, they can still get, they could potentially get a Fano at seven. I think that could happen. I don't like it, Mench. Four for Carnell Tate. I love Carnell Tate. Four. Okay, fine. We'll go, we'll go Fano. Okay. Fine. It's going to stick with you.

You're bossy today. I'm just sticking up for my guys, man. I just don't think he's a, well, we'll see. All right. Fine. It's a, it's a collaboration, the TMS. Yep. I really appreciate this.

I'm not good at it. Just ask my daughter a layer. Okay, so here we are number five. New Orleans. They needed, the way, I think they need. need edge, they need wide receiver, they could use offensive line, they need a lot of things. To me, it's, it's Caldrick Fock at five. I just like the wide receivers more than you do.

Yeah, yeah, you can go with your guy here. I don't see it. Mansour Delane is the best corner in the class from what I've seen so far. I love them. Agreed. But I didn't put him in my top 10. I love him, but I didn't put him in my top 10. Go find.

He's in the top 15. and go find out where in the McShay report. And honestly, as I was doing this exercise, this cornerback class is turning out to be a lot better than I thought with some names that weren't, you know, I got a lot of work to do there, man, because I'm feeling the same way. Like, I got to get sorted out a little bit more here now.

I mean, there's obviously at Avion Terrell, Brandon Sissy from Chuck. John McCoy didn't play at all this year. McCoy, a lot of people think he's still the top corner in the country. Devin Moore from Florida, I talked to a scout recently, said like this guy, if it's not first, it's round two. Colton Hood. Mohammed from Texas, Keith Abney from Arizona State, Colton Hood, Tennessee. Chris Johnson, San Diego.

Davidson, Igbenoson, has done wonders for his career. Kelly Jones, the other cornerback from Mississippi State. So there's some dudes. All right. So we're at New Orleans. What? Chris Johnson, San Diego State is a dude to keep an eye on too. Yes, yes.

And Pons had an awesome game too. Yeah. Yeah. All right, we're done with the cornerback. New Orleans. To me, it's Falk or a wide receiver? I mean, I'm going to favor the guy up front. That's what I do.

And I think that Fawks a better value there. I love Carnell Tate, though. And I'll go, I'll go Falk there. I'll go Falk. Okay. Go Falk. All right. I'm fine with that.

So Falk goes five to New Orleans. We thought all last year they would draft the next KM. Jordan replacement. Thought it could be Mikel Williams didn't wind up being. Yep. They went offensive tackle, right? Yep. Kelvin Bank's Jr.

It's been a great pick. All right. So we'll take Falk off the list. So here is still on the board now. Jeremiah Love running back. Yeah. Lab Downs, Ohio State, and the three wide receivers, Tate, Lemon, Tyson, and Maui Noah, the offensive tackle guard from Miami, among the, and then Peter Woods from Clemson,

Interior Defensive Limit. So those are the names still on the board as we get to 6 through 10 in this flashmock. One of our favorite exercises to do. Munch called it early in the season. It's December 11th, kind of early, but I kind of love it. I think the second time I've done it too. I just like these. Washington, here are the needs I've got for them.

Edge, receiver, corner linebacker. I mean, I could see Tate here. Another. Do you want to do it? Who's your edge if it's not that? It's going to be. I don't know where you have. David Bailey and Ruben Bain are down the list.

Check out the McShade report to see where they are. But they're in the top 20. I can say that. But not there, right? Yeah. It feels rich. And I don't know. That's my thing with some of,

this is the good part of this exercise, right? Some of my guys that I have high, the positional value is not there. I get Tate here. I get Tate. Carnell Tate, number six pick to the Washington commanders. Moving on from that then.

Number seven, New York Jets. Couldn't get their quarterback. Got a couple first round picks this year to build around it. Got a couple first round picks next year. Quarterback is their number one need. Outside of that, I've got wide receiver, interior defensive line, offensive line, as three of the other needs. But obviously can go in a lot of different directions.

Could this be Mackay Lemon or Jordan Tyson? Could this be Francis Maui Noah? Could this be, what else does I say? Peter Woods, maybe. Peter Woods is interesting to me. like smart drafting would say you just gave up an interior defensive lineman in a trade as you're trying to yeah let's get younger let's build from the inside out let's go peter woods here okay it just feels good and i know by the way for for kind of similar reasons i kind of like maui noa too but i like woods

better okay i don't disagree all right so peter woods goes seven to the Jets. Eight, Arizona. It's got to be love. I love, love to Arizona at eight. Yep. Jeremiah Love running back. It's the best fit in the early portion of the first round,

wherever Arizona winds up picking. Yeah. So Jeremiah, I love, your number one prospect, my number four prospect comes off the board at eight to Arizona. Nine, Rams. postponing the quarterback thing. Let's not project a trade here.

Right. Although I would put an asterisk on this and say less need will aggressively be pursuing trying to pick up a first round pick next year to be part of that. Archmanning, Julian Sayan, Lenorese Sellers, maybe Ty Simpson, maybe Dante Moore.

I know I'm missing some other names, but it's a loaded class. If you talk to some scouts, like don't forget about Nico I, Iamaliava. You know, so there's just a lot of dudes that could have big years and propel them. The Rams, I could see Caleb Downs here. Just take the best player.

Yeah. I could also see offensive line. I could see offensive line with Maui Noah. I agree. Those are the two players specifically for their needs. I've got offensive tax. a quarterback down the line, safety, corner, receiver. They can go any of those directions.

Do they fall in love with a corner after the workouts and all that? We'll see. But right now, I like downs. Okay. And if Downs doesn't go nine, he could go 10 to Cincinnati. But let's plug Downs in, Caleb Downs, the number five player on my board. Where did you have to Caleb Downs? Six.

Six. Six. So a good value. I feel about that. Yeah. Downs goes to the Rams. in that trade they had with Atlanta in last year's draft. And then 10 Cincinnati.

I mean, it doesn't have to be an edge because, like, I don't envision a world in which they're, I think Peter Woods, if he were still available, would be on the table. I think Caleb down. Do you feel like it's the best defensive, best defensive player available at this point? That's what it feels like.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And on my board, I've got lemmon. and Tyson at wide receiver. I get Maui Noah at offensive tackle guard. Could this be Mansour Delane? But you're probably looking at losing Hendrickson and opposite.

Yeah. You're losing. But you drafted an edge last shot. This is either going to be David Bailey, Ruben Bain, or Mansour Delane. Or Messador. I feel like Messador could get sneaky and move up. I don't just agree.

Yeah, Acame Messador, the edge from Miami is someone to keep an eye on. But I do have Bailey and Bain Jr. ahead of him right now. But it's a name to keep an eye on. I'm glad you mentioned it because when I told you back in October, by the way, when I talked to a scout, he was Messador over Bain all the day long. So that was an interesting conversation. And since then, you've seen kind of a ground swell, right? Yeah.

I love this exercise. You drafted an edge last year in Texas A&M and Stewart, right? Yeah. Powerful pressures not product, not sack production. So you're looking for a compliment. David Bailey feels like the compliment. Because are you going to draft another one of those guys in Bain? And while I love Mansour Delane,

corners have been following the last couple of years, sliding a little bit longer than you think in the first round. Because the emphasis, if it's not a quarterback or receiver, it's been on offensive linement and defensive line. Yeah. Which is understanding. We've talked about Delane. It's going to be interesting to see how well he tests.

I'm not saying he's not going to test well. I just want to see what the numbers are because he's a corner. And that's just the reality situation. Let's go with David Bailey right now. I like it. And note that it could be a Bain. It could be a Messador. It also could be a mentor Delane.

I was just going to say, Delane's tape, though, is awesome. And we both said the first word that we said when we talked about him was smart. That dude is so good. Like just being a football player. So there it is. Throw up the list. Tucker, it's number one.

We had to trade up Cleveland taking Mendoza. Number two, we had Las Vegas taking Dante Moore. Number three, linebacker Arvel Reese going to Tennessee. Number four, the Giants trade back. I try to give him Carnell Tate. I know. This is going. let me.

Mad to be an aster. Go ahead. And you went with, who'd you go there? Spencer Fano, Spencer Fano, offensive tackle, right? Okay. Then at number six,

we had Washington and we wound up giving them a receiver, Carnell Tate. Number seven, no, no, it didn't go five. Five was New Orleans and we gave them

Keldrick Fock, right? Correct, the Auburn Edge. Yep. The edge, after not taken Mike L a year ago. Then we went, Washington, we gave wide receiver.

Carnell Tate, give Terry McLauron another Ohio statewide receiver. The Jets at 7, we wound up going with Peter Woods, right? Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Then at 8, we had Arizona, pick that we love, Jeremiah Love from Notre Dame, going to the Cardinals. Number 9, we had the Rams taking safety Caleb Downs, and number 10, Cincinnati. Tough call between Mansour Delane at Corner and a couple other edges, but we went with David Bailey for the SAC production coming out of Texas Tech.

This has been a fun exercise. It's been great. You're really growing as human, man. I mean, the way you listen to me now and really work with me. Like, I know you're going to get off this and still be irritated with that pick. But, you know, you've come a long way. I appreciate it. It must be the Christmas spirit.

It's earned. You have earned it, sir. I'm fired up for our guest. We have a guest that we've been, honestly, since a lot of, last spring, I developed a relationship with him. Let me give you some background real quickly. And I promise I had this whole long thing written and I was going to give you a whole. It doesn't require it.

And I'm just excited to share with our audience. And I said this. We had a pre-meeting with him. I told him two things, Jake Rosenberg, okay, with the athlete group. You can look it up. It's theathletgroup.com, what he's doing. I'll give you a brief background here. But I told him two things when we met in the pre-interview.

one is this will not be an infomercial okay your work will stand on it on its own and and there are I don't know how many others in his exact um field right now like exactly what he's trying to do there are out there I do know this it is he is the preeminent in his group with Mark pricelyer and others they are they are the best of what they're doing right now that's not from it's information I'm getting from people but that I trust around college football, okay? The second thing that I told him is, like, I do have a, I don't have a friendship with that.

I've been talking to him since April. You know who reached out to me? Joe Douglas, former GM of the Jets, our teammate at college. Joe, Joe and I have a friendship above all else. Joe has twice, multiple times he's told me, you should get with this guy, I think, or, you know, I've told him, hey, Joe, why don't you talk to this guy? We put each other in contact.

But twice now, in 25 years of working in this business, Joe has called me and says, you absolutely have to talk to this person. The first was Kevin Weidel. We didn't have money. We didn't have, like literally did not have. We were working at ESPN at the time. I had no way to hire Kevin Weidel.

And Joe said, hire him. I've never heard of Kevin Wightle. We figured it out. out, Kevin came and worked for nothing at the beginning and then a little bit more than nothing for a while. He worked with us for 10 years. And outside of you mentioned, I don't even consider you a hire that was the best hire I've made in my entire career. Okay. I miss him. Now he's with the Baltimore now he's been in the NFL high level scout and is like an impactful presence in the NFL scouting community. Okay. The second one is Jake Rosenberg. Because Jake had just left the Eagles where

Joe was for a long time with Howie Roseman. He was Howie Roseman's right-hand man on the personnel side. Jake was the right-hand man for Howie on the salary cap side. All those deals and movements. Remember, like, everyone's like, does the salary cap even exist to the Eagles? Like, is it extinct? They keep grading for players, bringing players in, restructuring, backloading deals, turning salary into signing bonuses.

they keep doing all this stuff, right? Well, Jake was the right-hand man behind all that stuff with Howie, right? In addition to Howie being creative and ahead of his time, Howie hires very well. If you go look at his staffs over the year and where these guys are, look at his tree. It's growing fast. And I'm shocked that more people in the league owners haven't found themselves something. There's no finding another Howie. Howie's one of one.

but follow that structure they created organizationally. Okay. So that's kind of the backdrop. He was with Philadelphia starting in 2020, 2012. One of the Super Bowl there was there like 10, 11, 12 years, left before, 12 years, I think it was, left before. Yep. Left before they won their most recent Super Bowl, the second one under Howie, okay? And he did so, obviously not realizing they were going to win a Super Bowl that year,

but recognizing there is such a tsunami that has hit college football, and these programs need help. And I feel like with my time at the Eagles, 15 years is a traitor in Chicago, time with the Eagles has uniquely qualified me to help some of these programs adapt and evolve to what's going on with the NIL, transfer portal, and everything else that's being just blasted into the lives of college coaches, especially head coaches. okay so when you look at all of that is the backdrop he left the league in 2024 he and mark

pricler who i actually wound up i didn't even know at the time when i was talking to jake in the beginning he's working with mark pricler who was a producer of mine like 20 years ago at ESPN so i've got ties with these people i'm not here pushing and he's the only one i'm not saying he's the solution to every program that needs a new head coach or needs restructuring and needs help with it i'm not that's not why we're doing this we're doing it because i promise you you, there's a desperate need for more information. And I know you as fans of college football in the game we love and just as fans of the NFL draft and the NFL in general, like starving for more information, what's going on behind

the scenes in draft rooms and salary cap and all that in the NFL. But now even more starve for what's actually going on in these college football programs. Why is it working at Oklahoma? And it's not working at other place in certain teams. insert program. Jake's behind some of this stuff, forefront of all of it, okay? And he launched this group just about two years ago, 23 months ago, I think it was, the athlete group. Florida Gators, the moves they just made.

We talked about Urban and how lovely he is with Summerall, but also in love with the fact they hired an NFL GM with experience in Dave Caldwell, who's been with the Eagles after leaving the Jaguars and actually brought the Jaguars a lot of success, even though there were some picks and some things that went on. People didn't realize how great of a job he was doing with that organization. And then he just sharpened the knives with Howie the last five years. So Florida is an example. Oklahoma is an example of what Jake and his group have been able to affect change with

and help them structure the right organization to help support the head coach in the entire football program. there's eight clients he's worked with i know there are a handful more that he's now talking with and and you'll kind of get a sense of where he's going most importantly when you're done listening to this interview with jake you will have it much greater like significantly greater understanding of what's really going on behind the scenes with college coaching hires with nil with this salary cap with the collectives and everything else so now's time, Steve, and I know you're fired up for this conversation.

I can't wait to speak about you and I take it. But now's time, let's bring on Jake. This episode is brought to you by Scout Motors. As we get closer to the playoffs, everyone's focused on the future. Who's advancing? Who's not? Scout Motors is focused on the future too. The all-new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler will combine iconic heritage with reimagined engineering and design.

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And there he is, as promised. Jake, how you doing today, man? Great. Appreciate you guys having me on. I'm excited about this. We are too. And I think it's an important conversation to have. And I think it's the right time to have it with a little bit of a low between the championship games and the college football playoff. I described it in the open here as a tsunami that has hit college football in the last couple of years with the NIL and the transfer portal and all the changes that have occurred. Your role in all of this is fascinating to me. And it's critical. And I kind of explained to our audience your background and what it is that you're doing at the athlete group and how you're helping different programs that you've elected to work with.

But maybe use Oklahoma as the example as you go through this and what you've been able to do for the Sooners football program, kind of how you've structured that, the importance of what you've done. Obviously, people can just see the result, the quick result that occurred in a one-year-season. span from 2024 to 2025. So help us, in your own words, walk us through what it is you're doing and what it is you're trying to help programs kind of instill in terms of a structure. Sure. I appreciate it. I think I started this with the idea that college is clearly professionalizing.

You had players getting paid. And you can tell that there was becoming more and more of professional characteristics in college than there had ever been before. Team building in the NFL is a really complicated process in terms of how many different inputs, how many different skill sets, different things come into play that all impact what the team is like on the field. And college has been, by and large, a pretty constant, consistent process for a long time. You had one thing to offer. It was a scholarship. And it was yes or no. There was sort of a binary aspect to that. What we've seeing now in college football is, as you said, the tsunami has added all these different aspects

to what it takes to put a good team on the field. And, you know, coaches are problem solvers. They, you know, things come up every day that people would never know about that a coach needs to sit there and figure out. And they've always been the person who does that, you know, to some extent, judge, jury, executioner, single person at a program who's driving the vision, who's coaching the team, you know, kind of setting the temperature for the entire program. But what we have is as things got added here in a college football, they didn't have people to do that. That wasn't a skill set that they had ever needed before.

And so what do you think happened? The coaches just took all of that to themselves on their plate and said, all right, I'm going to make this work and I'm going to figure it out. And I think what we've had is coaches who have incredible skill sets or have gotten to where they are because they are a great coach. they are a great recruiter, they are able to set a culture and a temperature, are getting further and further away from that and spending far less of their time actually doing those things. And so sort of the niche, if you will, that we have carved out here is we are objective. I don't have a model or something that we're going to a school and saying,

you need to do this. But by being objective, having seen team building at the highest level, I worked with a general manager in the NFL who I feel, is the best there is in the NFL and maybe across sports right now. And Howard Roseman with the Eagles. And I think, you know, looking at the various times where we've more or less had our worst seasons and very closely thereafter followed by our best seasons. And so I think a lot of that is just bringing together all these different aspects.

So what we're able to do at the athlete group with schools is take a very objective look and say, what are you guys doing? Where are all these things? doing them, you know, what skill sets might you be missing? What would be a better, more efficient approach? Because we've seen that just spending money or a lot of money doesn't

mean that you're going to win a lot of games, right? There's, that's, that's a matter of strategy and process. And so what we're doing with that is just allowing these teams to make the best use of the dollars that they have.

Ideally, it's not going to be perfect every time, but. So I remember distinctly, right? Jeff Halfley was the head coach of Boston College. And I talked to him right. I called to congratulate him, reached out. And he left to go to, and I live in Boston. So I kind of had gone over to his camps before and gotten to know him a little better.

But he decided to leave Boston College to go to Green Bay to become the defensive coordinator. And I'll never forget. The first thing he said is, you know what, Todd? I just want to coach ball. again. And I don't feel like, given everything that's just happened in college football, that I can coach ball and affect these kids and develop them the way that I really want to. And it was weird to me that a college coach, getting an 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 year old, and the critical stages of their development is saying,

I need to leave college to go to the NFL to go develop and coach ball again. But it speaks to what's what's gone on, right? with the recruiting and the NIL and the transfer portal and all the externals that you have as a head coach, it's hard to just coach ball. And coaching ball is what got all of these men to where they are and they're, you know, as head coaches in this profession. So with that as the backdrop and also like Urban's gone. Nick leaves because it's just, you know, at his stage of the career, it's like, is this all worth it? Jim Harbaal is leaving.

So there's a lot of guys that are exiting and either. they're just done or they're leaving to the NFL. With Brent Venable specifically, always been a great defensive coach, always been a leader of men, right? Infectious, his energy and all those sorts of things. But you plug him in as the head coach at Oklahoma, and now we've got all the different elements with NIL and Transfer Portal,

and it felt like maybe he's not allowed to do what he does best and where he can affect change the most. but then you help bring in Jim Nagy and Jim Nagy's staff with like 50 years or whatever it is of NFL evaluation and then you help them put in the structure with kind of a salary cap which you excelled at and we're behind the seat.

People were wondering with the Eagles like, is the salary cap real anymore? Because we got Jake over here backloading and turning salaries into bonuses and all. Like what's going on? but you're helping with this whole process and I'm not here to try to promote necessarily what you're doing

but with Oklahoma you saw so quickly it feels like BV's allowed to just coach again is that part of what you're trying to instill a structure that allows the people to do what they do so well actually focus on that I think that's 100% true you talk about whether it's the NFL or it's college

they jump from being a coordinator to being a head coach is a huge jump, right? Like you have guys who are great coordinators. There are so many other things that come up when you're a head coach that you didn't have to deal with in terms of managing a staff and just a lot on your plate. You're managing, you know, strength, conditioning and training and all these things. And then imagine that now you are also trying to be a salary cap manager.

You're also doing negotiations with your players. And by the way, you know, there is, thankfully, more professional representation coming into college. But what representation has been over these last several years has been a smathering of professional representation and a lot of other people who are trying to play agent. And that is super distracting, quite frankly. And so whereas someone who transitioned from a coordinator to a head coach, they need some time to figure that out anyway. Now they're adding all these other things to their plate, which in my view, and I think one of the things,

core principles, if you will, not that we've said this, but about the Eagles is the strength is the organization. Howie has built, how he is great, but his vision is to build an incredible organization, and then it allows people to have very clearly defined roles and do them really, really well at the top of their field. When you don't have a clearly defined role, and you're just increasing things,

and there's all this other stuff coming up, you have people who might be great at something, doing a whole bunch of other things that they're trying to learn on the job, and they might be okay, they might not be great at. I know you have a really educated audience as far as college football is concerned, but even for me coming from the NFL to come over and see coaches who are responsible for developing players, you know, young men, like in this formative time of their life,

they're also the primary evaluators. They've been for just about every program in the country. They are the scouting staff, you know. there is not a distinct scouting staff. There is not a distinct player personnel process like there is in the NFL. And so they're already loaded up. It's already a crazy amount of work. But now they're having all these discussions about money.

And so I think what we've been able to do and with BV is I think what Jim, you know, in my view, I think that building out a scouting staff is going to have distinct advantages, is going to allow them to improve the talent on the roster versus other programs. because of how they'll be able to watch, evaluate players who will fit great there. I think that is a benefit, but it's hard to assess. The main benefit, even if that's a scratch, even if they get the exact same roster of players, is putting coaches in a spot where they can spend more time on the grass, they can spend more time with their players, and less time scouting and doing some of this other stuff.

So I think that's a key part of it. Yeah, I was talking to Urban recently, and it was interesting. And Steve, you can jump in after. I'm sorry. I just have so many questions. typical. I know, I know. I was talking to Urban recently, right? And he was, he's thrilled about the hire. And obviously he has ties in Florida and Utah and Ohio State specifically in Bowling Green, of course. But he still has a vested interest in Florida and was really excited about the hire of John Sumerall there, right?

And but he also was very quick to point out that he thinks it's like the structure there is, is heading in the right direction given where we are today. And he made the comment, like, and I don't know the whole timeline exactly. It's not necessarily important, but, you know, that he thought it was fascinating that Florida hired Dave Caldwell, former NFL general manager to be their general manager, and then announced John Summerall, which is very different from what we're used to in college football, A, even having a general manager, but B, that a general manager maybe was put in place minutes, hours, days before a head coach was announced.

and then he transitioned and would kind of like, you know, ingest was like, you know, if I ever were to get back in, I'd grab you and Mench and I would want you guys to run. So, but then I joked back. Conceptually, I'm very intrigued, urban, but I don't know that you would be the kind of guy knowing you that a GM would necessarily want to work with. And I think that's why you're working on Fox now because it's hard to kind of an old dog new tricks, right? how challenging is it now when you have a program that comes to you and says, Jake, we need your help. We see the success you've had at Oklahoma. You've worked with eight programs now.

And we want you to help structure a program and a system that's put in place where a general manager and a front office staff is working like this, you know, together, arm and arm with the head coach to allow everyone to do what they're doing best. how difficult is it if the head coach is in place and how challenging is it trying to talk to an athletic director or the president or whoever's making those decisions to say, I just don't know that your head coach is going to be as open to this as maybe Brent Venables or some other people have been or some role at Florida to allowing this structure to be put in place

because head coaches by nature, a lot of them, not all. The power of it and control of the whole thing is very important to them. Yeah, I think that the control is a big part of it. And I think what you're asking people to do who have gotten to where they are, which is the top of the profession, is you're asking them to some degree to give up some control and put trust in a process that they've never been part of.

And I think that's very difficult. And I totally appreciate the position that they are in. What would your pitch be to an urban or to someone who's so used to have a complete control of everything? What would your pitch be to them of, hey, listen to what I'm saying here because of only doing this to benefit you? Yeah, I think that my pitch is if you find the right person to be your partner, because effectively this is your partner in building and running a team. This person will take a umptean amount of things off of your plate, allow you to do what you want to do, which is coach the team, and have better players to coach.

and I think every coach is better when they have better players. I think coaches in their hearts understand that they don't want to be in a room negotiating with their own players or talking to agents and doing all this, but they also are not trusting and don't understand how else it would work. And so for me, the toughest part is probably the first three, six months, 12 months, while you want to see, like, is this going to work? How are my players going to be? How is this process going to go?

I think the other important thing I'd say to Urban is I am not picking up. up, I don't believe that you pick up an NFL model and drop it into college. That's not anything that I would endorse that is not, I don't even use the word NFL model. I would never say that because the fact that recruiting is still such a big part of this process. And it's something, quite frankly, when I jumped into this in my mind, a lot of things that I thought, you know, I needed to prove out or I needed to understand better. I thought recruiting would go away, that this is basically in the NFL free agency, guys aren't taking visits. You're not whining and dining or showing.

They are agreeing to a deal in advance during the tampering period or any other time, and then they're coming in to take medical ensign. And I thought that would be the same type of thing in college. Recruiting through high school, but recruiting even in the portal is a huge part of it, and guys want to take visits. So it's not the same model. And I think what Dave Caldwell in Jacksonville, you know, was going to Florida with the five years to be informed by working with the Eagles,

he didn't go in and say, I want to put together an NFL operation. His approach is, I want to be a partner with the head coach. I understand I am not picking the players. The coach is picking the players. But there is a huge part of this workflow of all of this that with a scouting staff in a really good process, we can do in a really thorough way that coaches just don't have the time to do. And when you bring in a scouting staff and all they do is watch players, I think there's value to doing that. There's time on test matters. And so when you have a staff of

scouts and all they do is watch players and grade and they build out this mental framework, I believe that you're better at it than people who are doing that amongst four other things. And if there's a collaborative approach and the coaches are going to pour into the scouts and make sure it's clear what their vision is for how that team's going to play at each position, what those guys need to look like, think like what they want from a background and mental perspective. I believe that you will get better players. Coaches don't lose control because at the end, the scouting staff is going to pretty much

handle the first 80 or 85 percent and then turn over a list of players that they have curated and say, all right, these are the best 15 players for you. You go through this. You figure out how you want to stack them. what your favorite players are, recruit the crap out of them, and we're good with any of these. So that would be the pitch. It's not an NFL model. And I think if someone tells you that it is, it's not.

And I think each coach, each building culture is a little different. And so you need to kind of weave those differences in. And before we create a media frenzy, Urban also did say, I'm not going back. I'm very happy at Fox. Go ahead, Steve. Well, to kind of build on that conversation, this has been a, insane coaching cycle, right? And I'm wondering if the way these schools are approaching the search isn't the right way now

as much as it, you know, maybe they're doing this the way you would have done this 10 years ago. And maybe you're not looking for that big name CEO coach that's going to get a lot of attention, but you're looking for a guy who's going to work better in the new model. Do you think some of these schools are approaching their searches in the wrong way? I think a lot of these schools are approaching their search in the wrong way. I have seen in college that there's far less work done on the front end or before a search starts in terms of doing research, understanding the candidates, also understanding internally from a strategic standpoint.

How do you want this to operate? Right? Because to your point, I think this is less of a one-man ban type of situation. I think a school that is really firing in all cylinders with a great strategy and structure, I believe has an advantage over the coach who's handling everything. There are coaches who might be exceptions to this rule who are just so unbelievable at what they do and are so unique in their ability to process and all the things that go into it. But I also would say if you're building a model based on the one in a million guy,

then you're probably not doing it the right way. I think you've got to build on the probabilities. The fattest part of the curve is going to be coaches who will come in, coach really well, recruit really well, culture really well, but you can handle all the other stuff for them. Yeah, can we talk about our guy Nagy, sort of a little bit of a connection here? He wasn't, you know, he's not recruiting,

he wasn't evaluating high school talent when you guys hired him. Sure. He didn't. I mean, what he did at the senior bowl is incredible. That's the case for itself. That's absolutely the key. So when you sat down with him, what made you think you can make the jump from doing this, which he was outstanding at?

We all know that, to building a college roster, which I think is a different challenge. I mean, when I look at that, the depth of the talent pool when you're trying to recruit kids out of high school, it's overwhelming. Thank you, Todd. That's exactly the word I was going to use. And then you look at, you know, a player like Trinidad Chambers at Ole Miss, no one had them, but they were able to get them. How are you finding those players?

So when you sat down with Nagy, what impressed you about him and saying, this guy's perfect for what we're trying to do? Because I'm not sure other people would have seen the same thing. Yeah. You know, there's always a risk in hiring, right? Because it is situational. You never know exactly. It's like signing a free agent, right?

A guy's been incredibly productive. You're dropping them into a new situation. So much of it is situationally dependent. Who are they working with? How are they going to adapt? But with Jim, I think Jim had the NFL chops from an evaluator. no question about it. And if that's what it was pre-senior bowl,

I think you could have made a case that's simply based on scouting experience, he was a qualified guy. But what Jim did at the Senior Bowl, in terms of where he took the game and the different aspects to his job, was he dealing with boosters? No, but he was dealing with corporate sponsors

around the game and really bring Ebron Reese's and all these other things and really brought incredible visibility to the game. I think there's a parallel there with what people in college need to constantly fundraise and think about that, right? Jim hired a scouting staff every year, and they would go out, they'd build a board. And so there's just so many different things.

And then as the season went along, Jim was negotiating with agents to get players in the game. You know, I don't know if people understand, but there's this push and pull as far as whether players are going to participate in the game. What's the risk reward? And, you know, Jim was at the front of that. So dealing with a lot of the same agents that he would be dealing with in the team building process. He did that as well. And so in a sense, Jim was CEO and running this business called the Senior Bowl that had very like direct correlation to what he'd be doing in a GM role,

a new role. Like this is kind of like being a CEO of a startup in a way, right? There's no playbook for being a partner to a coach in this type of GM model. You know, if you ask me if I think this will in five years from now be, you know, the preeminent model, I do think so. Because I think that once coaches get over this trepidation or there's like a fear, you know, they want to kind of look around and see other people are doing it. It's good. We'll be good. Don't worry about it. I think it'll move in that direction because going back to what Todd said earlier, being a coach right now sucks in college. I mean, it just never stops. Like their quality of life is terrible. It's horrible. Terrible. It's a workload. It's constant conversation. You're on the

phone all the time. And it never stops. You know, there's, there's no boundaries to when players and parents and agents are calling you. So I think if you could improve that quality of life, improve the quality of the players on their roster and get them back to doing the things that got them into the profession in the beginning, I think at the same time, you're improving the quality of life, but you're also improving their chances of being successful. And, you know, I don't, I'm not taking credit by any means. I just want to be very, very, very, very clear. The season at OU has had, you know, an unbelievable coaching staff, Jim and his staff, I know have done a good job taking stuff off the coach's plates and allowing

them to get back to that. But this roster, you know, by and large, a lot of returning players. They did well in the portal, all that type of thing. But this is not, you know, my creation by any means. But I think what you'll see going forward is this is probably the least amount of contribution that Jim, you know, his scouting staff, because that shouldn't be lost in this. As part of them hiring Jim, they had structured out what a personnel staff would look like, what a budget was for him to hire real scouts

with real track record. You know, Jim hired two assistant GMs, one Lake Dawson, you know, longtime NFL scout personnel guy from the bills. He hired Taylor Red, who was actually working for me. Prior to that, who had been with the Patriots for six years, had worked in college football, for Dave Claussen at Wake Forest.

And then beneath that, Jim hired the GM who is at Air Force to work within his department. So you have this really well-built-out, established staff. And now because of that, they're able to build out a repeatable process. And I think that is the key to good results in team building, is are you doing the exact same thing every time? right and as you go through that you're able to course correct make adjustments if you're just sort of flying by the seat of your pants hair on fire buildings on fire in every situation's different it's really hard to have quality control and understand what you're going to get out of that so I think as they go forward you know from a recruiting class standpoint from a quality in the portal

I think those benefits will only just now start to come to be because the scouting or you know what is considered scouting in college has not been anything close to a parallel to what is the scouting process in the NFL. You know, it's just not enough time. A lot of the scouting, because coaches are so time crunched, is, you know, they will watch highlight tapes. They will watch point of attack tapes. Like, it is a very, like, fast-paced, you know, it's not, it's just not the same.

Are they, before they bring in kids for visits in the portal, they're typically not getting medical. They know something about background because they've called somebody to ask. But I think the more that these stabs become specialized, the more information they'll have about players and the better decisions they'll make about what they're getting. I've got a few follow-ups. This is just fascinating to me. Resistance of change. I'm sure you have dealt with a lot of that in what you're doing. I also know that you're used to that. I mean, how, Howie's just a nerd. He's not a football guy.

He doesn't know how to run an NFL organization. He didn't play ball, right? How about should you hear that nonsense? Yeah. And now he now literally he's the bar. And it's amazing that more people haven't tried to emulate what how he and the Eagles have done structurally and organizationally in the NFL. How much change and resistance to change, I should say, have you encountered as you're trying to

kind of impart your wisdom and help different programs put a structure in place that can be successful? I think there's a lot of resistance to change. I don't know that it's that there's a lot of good rationale reason for it outside of just not having been through this, not being comfortable with it. I think you're also talking about who are managing the coaches effectively, right? The athletic directors are hiring coaches. The athletic directors, by and large, have come up from other athletic departments.

They also have not come from a professional sport typically, but on the operation side. So they also can't really verbalize or understand how much a different structure might help their head coach be successful. And I think that what you need to be careful of in this world is you hire a great head coach. You don't want to fire your great head coach because they were a bad GM. And I think that that is a third possibility that never was a thing before. It was part of being a coach is building your roster and you're just basically going to do that through recruiting and scholarships. And now you may have a situation where you have a guy who really might be a great. great coach, but has been so inundated and maybe not as successful in figuring out how to make

the money work or how to tie that to building a roster. And so you're in a situation where the result speaks for itself, but he may still actually be a great coach. He just didn't have good enough players. And so if you can get support for that, if you can go in and you can say, hey, look, we're going to give you help. I think that the thing that I would, you're not bringing in a competitor into the office, right? It's not, someone is not trying to steal your glory or if this is a good situation, I use the word partner all the time. Like the GM in an NFL building doesn't want to win any less than the head coach or vice versa,

right? If everybody is motivated to win, you just have to trust that they are going to pull in the same direction. Does a GM want to give a coach a player who he absolutely doesn't want and doesn't think will work there? No, that's, it's absurd. you know, might a GM fight for a player because he truly believes that maybe, you know, the coach is missing something about this player.

You know, Scouts spend so many hours grinding players. That healthy debate, that fuels some of the best draft rooms in front offices in the NFL. I mean, every single year I talk to scouts, GMs, college coordinators, and they talk constantly about some of the most productive meetings in terms of evaluating and setting our board are the ones that are highly contentious. But at the end of the day, we work through it. And why wouldn't that work in college football? I agree completely.

And I think if you have a model where not to say it can't work, but the GM is someone that the coach hired, typically from a salary standpoint, a lot of the college GMs that have gotten that title over the last few years that are in more of a conventional model, what they're making is a very small fraction of what the coach is. you know, they were hired by the coach. It's very hard to have an honest balance, you know, if you will.

And a lot of it is coach driven. I want this player, go get this player, go get that player. Imagine you are the GM in that situation. The coach has told you you got to go get this player. Like how do you engage an agent in a negotiation knowing that your boss said you have to get this player? Right. Like, how we used to say this all the time? Like, you got to walk away at least once, right?

They never know where you are until you basically tell them, go screw. If you're sitting there negotiating, and I'm telling you, it's better in most ways that the real NFL-type agents are coming into this space. It will really help. But they're sharks, right? If you let your guard down, they're going to figure it out and they're going to take your lunch. So if you're sitting there and they know that your coach cannot let you lose this player, you're never getting a good, you're never getting. a good deal. And so you wind up building a team at retail over retail, you know? And so cash, this is not a complex salary cap right now just on the revenue share standpoint, right?

It's a cash budget, and that's fine. You're adding up cash. But if you pay retail for every player and the price you pay is directly correlated to what their role is or what their talent level is, you're limited in how many good players you can have. And we all know like cap, depth is where you get crushed, right? And so you have to find value. And whether it's for a scouting staff that finds, you know, talent off the radar that they know they could slot into a role, or they find talent off the radar that maybe have fewer stars,

maybe a little less acclaim, but they know they could build and develop these guys into great players. That's the balance to build a really good roster. All right. I've got a few more questions. And we'll let you go. And we can kind of rapid fire through them, but don't feel rushed.

First of all, evaluation versus paying a player. Evaluating a player, paying a player. Obviously, we hear so much about like the collective and this school has 20 million and the Matador Club at Texas Tech had, you know, 30 million and 25 million here and what Lane just got. But when you start to look at like how we're using that money in evaluating the player versus paying the player,

how much are you trying to help as you try to install a staff and work with a general manager and trying to, you know, Jim Nagy brought in, you mentioned some of the names, highly qualified people with experience. How much are you trying to not coach them, but help them with, because I mean, you were a trader for 15 years in Chicago.

Yeah, that's right. You came to Philadelphia and Howie is, you know, this trade, and we're trading on draft day and we're going to trade for this place, an unconventional means. But behind all of that and how we would readily admit, you were helping with how do we structure these deals and where does the money go and how do we allocate it? And can we turn this into a bonus and all of that? So how much, how important is it the managing of the salary cap, if you will, and paying the player? while also making sure you're evaluating the right, not just a talented player, but the right player for that system. Sure.

I think evaluation and valuation is where you're getting to. Like that's sort of the, that's the tradeoff here we're looking at. I think they're very closely related. I think that one of the biggest issues that schools have had in negotiations, there's an emotional attachment to players, right? And if you don't have a great model or you don't, have sort of boundaries set up in advance, it's almost impossible to walk away or figure out when you've hit that point and it's just not worth it anymore. Because if you're dealing from,

everyone has a limited resources to an extent. And those resources might be significantly different from school to school. But from that, those resources, you need to figure out how to build a team. And that exercise comes first. And I think when I jumped into this, maybe there was some assumption that like, hey, nerd, figure out how much we're supposed to pay these players. You know, like, and I was going to like set up with like a pencil, you know, I'm going to go pencil behind my ear and like, you know, crank away and had hand over like this little machine that would just tell them all this. Well, team building's not like that. It's a dynamic process. You have to kind of adjust and constantly figure out you got to know what you're leaning on,

what kind of options you have, how important players, what the role is, like what do specific roles pay, you know, how are we going to rotate at our defensive line? Do we want two studs? Do we need five guys? Like those are the decisions and the discussions you have way before you sit there and actually start signing players, hopefully. But to that point, no one has ever done this before in college or hadn't. And so a lot of this just the season bleeds or bled right into the portal. So you never have that moment when your coaches are doing everything, right? And you imagine the portal prior to this year was basically an extension of the regular season, right? Beginning in December, they just went right into portal. So basic things that happen

in the NFL, you should sit down with your coaches, whether you're sitting down in person and get a very clear evaluation of your entire team, right? From every support staff, the coaches, because you need to make a decision on not only whether they come back in the NFL you multi-year contracts and some of them you may be obligated to come back, some of them you may be thinking about trading. But that informs you going forward. What are your needs? What do we see down the horizon?

You know, down the pipe here. But these schools not because they wouldn't do it. They just have never done it before and they don't have the time to sit there in advance. Having a distinct scouting staff allows during this season this process to go on in parallel to not having to worry about game planning and winning every week, right? Because in the past, your coaches had to make a decision to some degree. Am I spending time on next season or am I spending time when this season? And you know how coaches, it's always about this week.

They are going to sit there, burn them in. It could be 0-in 11. And for the 12th game, they're putting in the same time. They work their asses off. Right. But it may be taking away from the next season. But, you know, how could you blame them? but at least when you set up a distinct kind of parallel process,

this is all going at the same time. You're not compromising this season while thinking about next season. But I think that to me, at least the player valuation side, like the money side, you know, I think about it like a big funnel, right? It's widest at the top of you of every possible player in the country, high school, portal, any one of those might be on your roster for next year. How do you get from that huge group? to the very bottom, which would be, these are the players we want to have on our roster,

and these are the players we need to pay, right? And so before this nerd would sit down and say, hey, this is how we have to pay, I would say, are you sure that these players that are at the bottom of this funnel are the right players? Right. And I don't know that anyone could answer that with conviction. And so let's do, let's make sure that the 98% of this, in terms of your funnel and how you're getting to this. These players, those are the right players. Let's go through and figure all that out.

And then let's also talk to the coaches. How do you want to win? Is this an offensive operation, defensive operation? Are you going to build along the lines? Are you going to defensively? Are you going to take past rushers or cover corners? Are you going to pay off ball linebackers? These are things you talk about when it's quiet.

You don't all of a sudden have the discussion for the first time while there's two players in front of you and you're picking between them because I just don't think that leads to, to good decisions. And so for me with schools, I want partners. I want to be able to help them win. I don't think it does a whole lot of good for me to work with a school who doesn't really want to work with me

or isn't really committed to actually making a change because the only way for me, hey, I want to feel good about what I do. And I think, like, this is fun when you're helping them figure out how to get better and how to win games. No one that works in sports doesn't want to win. And like that's, right? We're all here for a specific reason because we're competitive.

But I think that, you know, that's the process. It is a process. It's not all of a sudden you just snap your fingers. And so Florida with code, Florida, you know, they are going to, it's going to take a while for them to understand, you know, Coach Summerall and Dave, it's not just going to be like, you know, old married couple from day one, right? It's new for both of them.

But I think that Dave has thought about this for a long time as a good jumping off point and a good way to pivot. And he understands his primary job is to support the head coach. He's not trying to steal glory, thunder. He's trying to win. He is so competitive. And he will do whatever it takes. I know he will. Right.

And so he will learn what does coach want to do? What doesn't coach want to do? How can I help him? There's no question in my mind. you have so much untapped, cheap, and sometimes free labor at a school. You have all these students who want to work, which is great. Bring them in. But if they're not trained, right, these students now have the opportunity to learn player evaluation from a former NFL GM.

This entire operation will be lifted because of that structure and, you know, and how that all comes to be. There's so much to be gained by that. I think really highly of Dave as a person and a professional. And I think his background being a GM for that long, he did something right, right? The Jaguars were within a quarter of playing us in a Super Bowl, right? Which now in hindsight, that's a pretty good accomplishment with what's gone on there. Otherwise.

And I think Dave would say there's things he did, decisions he made as a GM, he'd like to have back. But to have that with five years, I think five years, you know, working in Philly to some degree with me and Howie, and now bring that to a college program, it's a huge benefit from an experience standpoint. And so I'm excited to see what comes from it. Yeah, I think we all are. When you look at the NFL, right, I don't think it takes a personnel genius to figure out that in structuring a team, the draft has to be the foundation of your, of your organization.

And free agency, trades, but free agency as well, is kind of a supplement and going on and picking. And even like in Philadelphia, you guys were as aggressive as any organization out there and going and handpicking and moving and shaking to make certain deals for certain players. But the foundation was always how we moving around in the draft, getting additional picks, a recognition, which I'm still stunned to this. day when I watch organizations that don't realize, hey, it's probably better if I get more of these opportunities because you are going to fail with draft picks, then packaging a bunch of picks

always and moving up and winding up with three, four picks in the draft. I'm also stunned to this day where organizations value and try to build a foundation with free agency. And so here we are now, even, I think many teams have figured out in the NFL, but not all. But here we are now in college football where it's so new. It feels like to me that the portal is free agency, if we're making the correlation between college and the NFL. And recruiting is the foundation. It's the draft.

A, do you agree with that assessment? And B, what's kind of the process that you're working when you're working with a program to hire a general manager, and you're trying to kind of give some wisdom to those people on how to manage the portal versus high school recruiting? No, I agree with you in broad strokes that those are kind of the parallels. They're not perfect because, like I said earlier,

I think that recruiting underlies all of this. And, you know, in the NFL draft, you pick a player, and he basically has to come to your team. There's no situation that these schools are in where they can literally pick a play. player, right? There is always a recruiting factor. Portal's closest, but even in the portal, what has been the case, and maybe it changes this year because it's a lot more condensed, players by and large, insist on taking multiple visits. And so in free agency, you have certain

needs in NFL free agency. You have a two-day tampering window. You know, let's say you need a starter at guard or something. You may have, you know, three or four guys. You worked away top to bottom, but you're going to come to terms with somebody in that tampering period, and that person's going to come in, take a physical, assuming that goes well, they're going to sign. In college, in the portal, you may need a guard. You may talk to four or five guards. You may have one that you really like.

You make an offer. And he says, okay, I'm going to take four visits. And so you're sitting there. You haven't filled your need for a guard. You have this money earmarked, and now you're just going to sit there and, you know, Hold your ass for a week and a half, like waiting for these visits to take place. And oh, by the way, hey, he really likes it, but this other school just offered, you know,

25% more, 50% more. And that's very difficult. You know, it's hard to fill a need. It's hard to feel good about it. It's hard to understand how to manage your money. And so I think that that is a difficult process. I think, you know, another thing that really comes to mind about the portal is it's a very condensed process to bring these guys up to speed. to integrate them into a team, you know, you build culture through a coach, and that's a year-long

process. But when you bring someone in the portal, you need them to contribute almost immediately, right? And so how do you get guys to contribute immediately? You need to spend time with them and develop them. And so the better the model where the coaches are more focused on coaching and developing, the easier it is to bring these guys along and make sure that your portal players have the greatest chance of succeeding in the short term. But it's difficult. I'm not simplifying. And I think getting yourself into a better structure gives you a better chance. It doesn't ensure anything. You still need to do the work. There is a, you know, I believe that you make your own luck to a degree. The better your process, the better your structure, the better your luck will be by and large.

But if you get a bunch of injuries at certain positions or it finds you where you're, you're already coming into a season weakest or the ball bounces a little funny. You know, we know like your season could go a way that may not be consistent with the level of talent on your team. But I do think this is about making the most good bets that you can with odds on your side. And over time, that brings sustainable success. And I think in the NFL, it's not hard to look at, you know, there's kind of tiers of teams where, these teams always seem to have a chance. Do we think that it's a salary-capped,

much more resource-constrained than college? Do we think that that's just because they have great luck every single freaking year? No. Like we know draft results kind of mean revert. You have great draft, you have poor draft. You have great draft, you have poor draft. But these clubs have built an organization that's sustainable.

They're really, really good. And so they are ahead in most areas going into a season. and that gives them, you know, that makes them more likely to win consistently. It was very important when we decided to do this that, that for our audience's sake, that this did not turn into an infomercial, as you and I talked about Jake. Can I ask, are you going to wrap it up?

Can I ask one more question? Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. I was about to land a brilliant ending, but go ahead. No, you can still do it after this. I will. I'm curious. And I think our listeners will be curious.

there's variables, I understand, including where schools, where it's with its facilities, how progressive they've already been with their staff. But when you're sitting down with these schools, is there a number that you're talking about to be competitive in college football? And I mean soup to nuts. I don't mean with players. I mean building out your staff, having the kind of facilities that you're going to attract players. Is there a number?

Is that different for everyone? I'm just curious, what's it take to compete at the college football level today? I think that what I would say is there are a lot of different numbers. There are different tiers. I think the biggest thing is if you are aligned in terms of what goals you are providing your coach and your program and publicly, do we want to win national championships? Are our resources competitive with other clubs that have that goal? And I think when I resources, it's complicated.

Like this is not pure. There are so many different sort of pipelines, if you will, that go into how to build a really good roster right now. Some of them are explicitly like going into players' pockets, clearly. Like rev share, direct cash payments. But what is the business around your athletic department? Are you monetizing all of your assets in the right way? Are you charging the right price for tickets? Like what other categories can you figure out?

It's all about resources, right? And then it's all about what kind of platform are you giving to your players to give them the ability to also make extra money from that. And some schools are putting it on a tea for them. They're building inside marketing agencies to help build these players' brands and give them more opportunities. And so if you're a player and you have the same offer from two schools, but one school is also going to help you make all this other money theoretically on,

you know, off of your name, your brand, do social media posts, do all this other stuff. Like in that way, the same offer, but that school now has really offered you more, right? Because you're thinking about, I'm going to come out of there. And I think all of these things, unfortunately, take away from coaching. coaches want this to be pure. Here is a place you have a chance to win. We will develop you, will put you in a position to be the best NFL player you could possibly be, right? That's pure. But you have all these other things pulling away from that. And you also have an agent community, you know, air quote agent community that are NIL only type agents or their, you know,

former coaches and they only get paid or get paid the most by moving. these kids to other schools. Yeah. And so it's not a pure process. And I think on top of all the other things that suck for coaches right now, you know, you get, you bring in a kid as a recruit, this kid's got huge upside. You know how to get him there, right? And you feel like by his junior senior, this is a first round pick, this is whatever.

And I know how to get, I know how to get him there. And all of a sudden, there's five people in his ear about why he knows to go, why he needs to go to this school, why he needs to do this, why is him playing more? And you're just like, dude, chill out. Like, we're going to get you there. And do you know what a first round, you know, corner will make? And whatever, look, you're going to leave for 50 grand, 100 grand. You're going to pay your agent something stupid.

You're going to move. Like, it's dumb. And I think that's just as frustrating as all the other stuff to coaches. Because even if you have great resources and a great program and great facilities, you're a great coach, you still run the risk of losing, players and that turnover. And I think coaches in their hearts, they want to develop. You know, they want to spend time.

They want to be great. And, you know, there's a lack of purity, I guess, in that. You know, like back to Jeff Hafflett, he wants to coach ball. He wants to get his team better, put a good defense out there. Think about scheme. How are they going to beat this week's opponent? As do the college coaches. But yet, it's all this other stuff that kind of clouds it and takes time away.

Yeah. I appreciate this. Yeah. It's all fascinating. And it is like the more I talk to you, the more it like it resonates how complicated it all is. And I think, yeah, I mean, as I was getting ready to say, but I'm glad you asked that question because it was an amazing answer. I don't know how if you're an AD or a general manager, you don't, you don't go to the website athlete, the athlete group right now and try to, you know, if you have any sense of trying to restructure what you currently have and try to. tried to reach out to Jake and his group with Mark Priceler and everyone else.

It's just it's too important. The business is too big. There are too many variables right now to try to enter in it and try to succeed in it without the right structure in place. So with that, we could go on for honest hours. But I think that this provides for our audience a really good understanding of what's going on, what you're trying to accomplish. And most importantly, the challenges that are that all these programs,

are facing in this day and age. And I'm sure this is not the last time that we'll talk. And we appreciate your time, Jake. And just look forward to seeing what you're up to next. Thanks. I appreciate all the time and everything. Good luck with everything. And thanks for having me.

And a good friend of Joe Douglas is a good friend of ours. So we'll stay in touch. Thanks again. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Jake. Thank you, yes. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

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