The McShay Show - Self-Scouting the 2025 NFL Draft: Where We Were Wrong (If the NFL Is Right)

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Welcome to The McShay Show! Todd and Steve are back with an NFL draft retrospective. Who was drafted earlier than the guys expected? Who went later? They reflect on some of their biggest draft-slot misses and dig deeper into tape study to better understand how the NFL valued each player. (0:00) Welcome to The McShay Show!(3:50) Washington D.C. will host the 2027 NFL Draft(6:15) Our Rankings vs. Where Prospects were Drafted(10:35) Kenneth Grant DT: Pick 13 Dolphins [Ranked 27](15:45) Tetairoa McMillan WR: Pick 8 Panthers [Ranked 50](23:22) Nick Martin ILB: Pick 75 49ers [Ranked 185](27:28) Kelvin Banks OT: Pick 9 Saints [Ranked 35](30:30) Vernon Broughton DT: Pick 71 Saints [Ranked 214](33:13) Devin Neal RB: Pick 184 Saints [Ranked 101](37:33) Jaylin Noel WR: Pick 79 Texans [Ranked 30](44:00) Cameron Williams OT: Pick 207 Eagles [Ranked 113](48:20) Bradyn Swinson EDGE: Pick 146 Patriots [Ranked 78](53:17) Marcus Mbow OL: Pick 154 Giants, [Ranked 63] What do you want to hear from us this summer? Send your ideas to [e-mail]. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Todd McShayGuest: Steve MuenchProducers: Tucker Tashjian, Mark Panik, Conor Nevins, and Daniel ComerSocial: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I got it wrong. If the NFL got it right. It's self-scouting day here on the McShea show. Listen, you guys poke holes and Mench and I all year long. Today, the wounds will be self-inflicted. Thank goodness. Thank goodness, Mitch, there are 353 days until the 26 NFL draft. My man, Mench, you good?

I'm good, man. Tucker, play me that beat, please. Regularly scheduled content here. here programming, Mondays and Thursdays. That's where you'll find us during the off season. We're excited to be back, fresh off our trip from L.A. Spented a couple days out there afterwards, Mensh, took a red eye back, four kids, one of which who was home. He took the red eye.

Took the red eye home Thursday, landed Friday morning, tried to take a quick nap while the kids are in school, one of which was out of school for the entire week sick. Mother-in-laws in town, like, you get the whole thing, right? But we're back doing what we love to do. This is kind of fun, man. Normally, I went 17 years of like, yeah, what's coming on Monday? Let's review the draft. And then like the door's right there. The highways right there.

We'll see you in August. Now we get to, now we get to review and take deep dives. And we, we just had a show meeting. Okay. We just had a show meeting. We, by the way, the responses, we got over 400 responses to our requests for help us. Help us help you, right? We said, send us some creative ideas.

We're looking to fill the entire summer full of ideas. Munch and I are already getting started. Like this week, we're getting started on tape for the 2026 class. In July, we're going to roll out all of our position rankings, our grades, our evaluations. We're going to go through all of that. In the meantime, we're doing a lot of reviewing. Looking back at this year's draft, we're going to analyze rosters, maybe some of the three years, what's gone on in the draft plans.

but we're also going to incorporate some Q&As, some show topics that our audience and the people who have been part of the show, friends of the show, as I like to say, have thrown at us. So we appreciate all of that response. We're not ignoring it. We're actually like there's meetings now taking place of people like putting it together, trying to condense it, trying to figure out what the best ideas are. And we're going to roll some of that out in the next several weeks as well. The McShay report, don't forget about it. there's that smile on Mentius Feds. It's been a few days.

Yeah, it's been a little weird. Yeah, it's, it's been nice. We had a crash course and we really, you know, we're basically living together for like 10 days out in L.A. So I gave him a few days to breathe. I recognize I can be a little bit much. And so it's good to see him smile again. We just had the way too early mock draft.

If you haven't read it, check out. Just Google the McShay report. Subscribe. You can subscribe for free. Get half of the content. You can subscribe and chip in. in and you can get all the content, but we're going to be rolling out. One announcement, man, it's not, what is today?

Cinco de Mayo, happy Cinco to Mayo. Happy single to Maya, man. Why am I just realizing that at 3 p.m. Eastern time? We just hadn't announced because we're old. Yeah, we are old. When we were back in our Richmond days, I would have 9 a.m. We were celebrating somehow. It's not, we don't normally get NFL draft announcement.

on May 5th, right? Did you hear the news, man? 2027 NFL draft on the national lawn? That's pretty cool, man. The White House, the National Monument. How about the commanders and what they're doing from an organizational, organization. It's exciting, man.

Jade and Daniels, we got new ownership, building a new stadium. The momentum is insane. It's kids, fans. Here we go. Commanders fans. No, commanders fans, you got to be fired up, man. Like, it is, it is finally coming your way after decades of frustration with Daniel Snyder

in that unbelievably poorly run organization. And what a way to celebrate. The NFL draft of 2020. Now we're going to talk, we got to go back to Connor and Dan. See what Tucker and Eduardo's availability is, everyone in the show. I don't know. Here's my visions. to get your initial here we go it's it's 355 days away let's start planning now i'm just thinking

no it's like 700 days away 2027 oh that's right that's right that's right yeah yeah um because now i'm hooked and out the draft ends in l a for this show i got that was an awesome week studios were great a week right so and and i'll tell you one consistent i don't care if we got to break through one of the windows because he's already promised he's doing it rsillo on saturday is invading Rissillo. That's going to be our, you know, an annual tradition, day three of the draft at Rissillo's house. But I got some visions of like, first of all, the first family of football, the Mannings,

the third generation, Arch, with the first overall pick in the 2027 NFL draft, Archmanning, right? With the monument, but I don't know. but what do you think about maybe L.A. for a few days, hopping on that ringer, calling Bill Simmons, hey, Bill, we get that jet ready,

flying out, D.C., doing the show the first night, flying back, finishing up in L.A., finishing at Rissolos House. Thoughts? You're out of your mind.

I know. All right. You're out of your mind. Just, I'm just rolling it out there. 700. Pick a coast for each draft. That's what I'm asking.

All right, let's get to it. I got it wrong if the NFL got it right. I have no idea who your players are going to be, by the way. I mean, I'm interested in. You sent me a text. I copied, pasted it and sent it on to Tucker so we could build some graphics. I honestly didn't. I think you had, I think I know one player in your list.

So I think it's great. Right. We've never done this before. I've actually never, I was trying, I was in the, I think it was a flight back. And I was trying to think of like, what can we do that's creative that's different? And I hadn't gotten all the responses. yet haven't haven't gone through all those yet but it was like we always talk about like it's always put through this this prism i guess is what i'm trying to say of well i had him as the 90th player

you know on my board but he went 36 what a terrible pick or i had him as the 30th player on my board he went 90 something someone else made a mistake and i've talked to our you know our audience about this before gary horton started us in this business right former nifel scout worked with bill bellichick and nick sabin and all those guys with the browns and and was bounced around different places in the league and when we got started he was trying to start basically the 30 third scouting department and we built it from there um originally the war room then bought out by ESPN became scout sink and here steve and i are screaming into a microphone twice a week uh but he always said you know like part of our responsibility todd

because i know a lot of people in the league i know how hard they work i've been in the league i've been in the league part of our responsibility is to kind of share that these are smart men women have been involved in sports like they didn't wake up one morning and decide how can i screw this thing up and and that and that always stuck with me and so like i don't have all the answers even the smartest guys in the league even the howie roseman is the pinnacle of the business right now is the gm of the eagles two super bowls under his belt even he like i can go pick apart his drafts He ain't perfect. Eric Costa came on.

I ain't perfect. Like, no. So I wanted to do this exercise and go through of instead of like, I think they got it wrong or why was this player. How about we start with maybe we got it wrong and work back and work backwards? Like if the league got it right, if that player should have been drafted where he was, whether it's way later than we thought or a lot earlier than we thought. Let's just let's talk through it. What, maybe did we miss something?

I even went back and I was watching more tape this morning on a couple of the players. To not to refer, like I've got pages of notes on, I've got like a page of notes on every player. It was to, I wanted to see with my own eyes now, okay, the Panthers drafted him, the Saints drafted him, the Dolphins draft. I wanted to see, okay, how does that fit what they want to do? And I know you've done the same. So I want to get started with players. For years, we've said, well, how good is a player going to be in the league? Well, tell me where he's going to end up.

So here we are. he's going to go. You know, like that's a big part of this equation in this puzzle. And I don't mean that is he going to a bad team or is he going to a good team? I'm saying, is he going to a place where he's going to get a chance to play? Is he going to a place where they have something and structure for him to grow and evolve as a player? There's a lot of moving pieces to all of this. We've said for years, is a player going to be good? Tell me where he's going to go. And my last preface to all of this is the obvious one that everyone's waiting for us to get into is Shador Sanders. This is about everybody that's not named Shador, okay? I mean,

everyone, I feel like we spent the entire week leading up to the entire draft weekend. And I even did a USA Today up to Friday, USA Today interview on the subject on Friday. So like, now it's, let's get into the nuts and bolts. We all know what happened there. And I've tried to explain. And we tried to, we tried to prepare people for it. We talk through it. And then we, you know, everyone did a debrief on it afterwards and whatever their opinions are wide-ranging from from mine to my good friend Mel Kuyper's various opinions right um but now let's get into the other guys so meds why don't you get started one and again this premise is a player that we either had ranked a lot higher or lower than where they got drafted and let's just let's talk through it and

try to make some sense of it and see why we could be wrong this my guy the first guy i went with was the 13th overall pick in the draft. That's Kenneth Grant. The Miami Dolphins took the defensive tackle, Kenneth Grant from Michigan. It's the smallest, this is the smallest surprise that I went with that player or surprise? No, no. We knew he was going to go in the first round,

but that high, considering who was still on the board, was a surprise to me, and I know to you as well. Right. So I just didn't see, I didn't see that kind of player on tape. To be honest, to you, when I went back and I looked at his grade, I felt like I was easy on him because of the potential that I was betting on the traits. And I think that's, you know, why you would take him.

You're betting on the traits. He is a big man who moves well, and he's got a very high ceiling. So we'll get into that in a little bit, but it's the smallest gap in between the ranking and where he went because of how early it is, right? So the earlier the player goes, the smaller, it doesn't have to be a big gap to me. He was my fourth defensive tackle

and the 27th best player. on my board is what I'm saying. And he ended up going 13. And that may not seem like a big gap to people, but when you're the second defense of that tackle to go and you go in the top 15 of the draft, to me, that's a big difference. So like every spot in my pick. No, no, every spot in the top five, our top 10 to 15 feels like three to five spots later in the draft.

Thank you. So you get it. And I think particularly because of what was still available. Right. Right. So that's where I'm going. When I get into my other guys, you'll, there'll be a much bigger gap. But for this one, this is one that popped out to me, okay?

Okay. But here's why, you know, here's why I could go well. The defensive coordinator there is Anthony Weaver. Anthony Weaver was drafted by the Ravens. He was a big defensive end coming out of Notre Dame. This guy knows the position. He likes bigger defensive linemen who are versatile. And you look at Kenneth Grant, I think a lot of people think,

he also coach for the Ravens for a few years, by the way. Former defensive line coach. This guy knows what he's doing with defensive lineman. If you're looking for a coordinator who can develop a young talent to defensive lineman, you're going to be hard pressed to find a guy better at it than Anthony Weaver, I think. So anyways, he's going to be able to, people might look at Kenneth Grant's size and say he's a nose tackle. Well, they took two other guys later on this draft that I think are nose tackles. They took Jordan Phillips in the fifth round, and they took Zeke Biggers in the seventh round.

He could play outside, inside, and that scheme, again, a guy that they're going to like because of the versatility. I think Kenneth Grant's going to play outside. I think he's going to be a defensive end in their base three man fronts, and then he's going to be a defensive tackle in their four-man fronts. And I think- But when you say outside, you still mean- defensive line. Yeah.

Right. Tackle-to-tackle. What I say is a four-eye. When I'm saying outside defensive lineman and a base three-man front, that's a four-eye technique, which means that he lines up over the inside shoulder of the offensive tackle. He's going to live in these two spots. He's going to live on the outside shoulder of the guard and the end.

inside shoulder of the tackle. I think he's great in that position because he has that size. Yes, you think 340 plus pounds, this guy's just going to play over the center and be that old school Vince Wilfork nose tackle. That's not really his game. I think he's a little bit better at getting off blocks, being athletic, being quick, getting into the backfield. I think he's more of a guy that you want to play in that B gap. And I think he could be perfect at that, and that's how they'll use him. So I'm looking at their scheme and their fit. Now my only problem is, say this. Pittsburgh got a player. They do a lot of similar things Pittsburgh does, and they got Derek Harmon at 21, who I think is a better player. So that sticks out in my mind. But if we're

staying positive and we're saying why this could work and why it could be wrong, and I have to acknowledge that, it's a great landing spot for him in terms of scheme and a coordinator who knows how to use him. Yeah. I'm just looking at their defensive line. I mean, they were 27th sacks last year, right? But 12th in pressures. If you wanted to draft for pass rush, you're drafting Harmon. Right. And it lost Callais Campbell. I think this Campbell is a different built. Calais Campbell is about 290, 295. Granted. But I think that when you look, don't get caught up on the weight. When you look at their style of play, and again, the Grant has a long way to go before we start talking about him in the same breath as Clayas Campbell. But if you're

looking at that kind of role, the player, the role they want him to play in the scheme, I think it's more Callais Campbell than it is a nose. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that'll be interesting because that wasn't my initial thought. And he has the tools, man. He has, listen, we've said this all along. He has the tools. If you can get the best out of him, that looks like a great pick. But 13 for a guy that's inconsistent on tape is a little, a little scary for me.

Yeah, I think that surprised people, that pick regardless. It was just a little higher than the expectation. I'm going to just play the hits right off the top. I think everyone was well aware. Everyone who followed the show was well aware that Tederoa McMillan was not my favorite player in this draft. Yeah, there's the most hobbies, right?

Yeah, I had them ranked 50th. And I did it. I called that the you can have them grade. I had to be. And I'd say, that but like i i i want to make it perfectly clear i see the talent you have you have to be good to get the you can have him great because you can have him great that's just to be you know just describe it explain it a little bit is if i put him at 50 i know i'm not getting him so that's the you can

have him but i you know he's long gone at that point right and and when i mocked him i i mocked him forget the final mock draft by the way one else maybe I wound up getting 10 right on the mock draft and like back. Yeah. Some late ones. There's some late ones. Yeah. I was great.

I was sneaking around the chicken coop on that thing. Yeah. Anyway, I know. Very, very much so. But yeah, I think the lowest I mocked him towards the end was, was it 12 to Dallas. And that's where he would have gone had Carolina not taken a minute. So obviously a massive discrepancy. You're talking about 20-something spots.

I'm talking about 42, right? So let's just let's just get it out of the way. I don't think anyone who's taking the time to watch the show in the offseason needs me to explain the 6-4, the 219, the length, the acrobatic catch as you see on tape. Like this guy has the ability to go up and make special plays down the field. I don't trust him long term is the reason why I've got him at 50. there's and I've seen all the backlash and you know people think that I'm in jed fish's pocket or I'm in this person's pocket or I just I I hear the stories I hear about the practice habits and practicing harder with scouts there and barely practicing when they're not and there's just a lot of stuff there but here's the deal if he if he decides to totally check in and go maximize his tools yeah yeah good pick And so that, I mean, that's what Carolina and Dan Morgan's counting on.

And I trusted. And this is my day to say, I was wrong if Dan Morgan was right. And I'm not like, by all means, Dan Morgan could be right. How could it work? Well, I'll tell you how it could work. And it's not hard. Like, it doesn't take a super sleuth to figure it out. 62 pass catchers in the league had more receiving yards than Carolina's top receiver last year, Adam Thielen,

who had 615 receiving yards. The group got better with, you know, with Xavier Leggett and Jalen Coker as the season progressed. And it was a direct reflection of the quarterback play improved with Bryce Young. They're in 11. Here's how it will work. You got a smaller quarterback that probably doesn't see the field the way, you know, some other quarterbacks who are 6-3, 6-4-6-5 do. a quarterback who very much relies on timing, throwing the ball to spots, touch,

putting the ball up there for receivers, a quarterback who actually didn't have the weapons that some of the quarterbacks before him at Alabama did, but still had always had good weapons and was very good at getting the ball out on time and leading receivers. And now he's got big catch radius guys. You know, you've got Ted McMillan in his size. You've got Xavier Leggett, who's not as tall, 6-1, but he's 2.20. seven physical receiver. You got Adam Thielen, who's a veteran route runner, 6-1, over 200 pounds, physical receiver.

You know, and then you get Jalen Coker who's come on and coming out of Holy Cross, right? Yeah, the Holy Cross, another 6-1, 213. So they got a bunch, they don't have a lot of like quick separators and they don't have a lot of burners, but they got a lot of big catch radius guys, strong after the catch, right? The drafted a couple talented tight ends over the last two years, too. They got Sanders out of Texas and Mitchell Evans out of Notre Dame this year. I mean, they've gotten some big bodies going to make plays.

Right. And I think the premise is going to be a lot of, you know, get the ball, West Coast, get the ball out, quick catch, physical run after catch, those kind of guys. And then when we take our shots, it's 50, 50 balls. Our guys are bigger and stronger, more physical than yours and go get contestants. And Carolina was in 11 personnel, 72% of the time last year. So now we've got three of the big bodies on the field. Some rotation of Tedaro and McMillan, Xavier Leggett, Adam Thielen, and Jalen Koker.

Right. So that's how it will work. Looks great on paper. It does. And they got a weapon for their quarterback. But as is the case with all of these other situations, I asked myself the question, maybe if I didn't get it wrong, who could they have had? Do you know what I mean?

Right. Who could they have had? So you went back and saw who was, yep, go ahead. And I'm looking at, why not a Colston Loveland if you're looking for a big receiving target? Put them in the slot. Why not a Mikel Williams or Jalen Walker, who I get it, went 15. So to me, I'm always going to be going back into, I'm not doing this against other receivers in the class. It wasn't a great class.

It's not like, and I liked Matthew Golden more. And I liked Emeka Buka more. I get for what they're trying to do. I'm cool with the wide receiver group. And like, if that's their guy, I'm cool with that. It's, it's what else this organization needed, you know? That to me is what I'm always going to go off of here. And I look at, and I look at, okay.

And then also, we always talk about the combo picks. And we're always going to have to, when we go back a year from now or two years from now, it was Nick Scorton at the 19th pick in the second round, right? And again, a player I'm not super, super high on. But when you look at Nick Scorton and Tetaroa McMillan, it could have been Mikel Hill Williams or Jalen Walker in the first. And then you get to Carolina. Where's Carolina?

Carolina is, they traded back, right? Yeah, they traded back to get Scorton. But they could have traded back and taken another receiver at that point. Trey Harris. Would you rather have Mikel Williams or Jalen Walker and Trey Harris? Or would you rather have Tederoa and McMillan and Nick Scorton? Yeah, I would have gone your way. I would have gone your way.

I would have two, but again, they believe in Tedaroa McMillan. They believe in the character. They believe in that this guy is going to show up in the NFL and he's ready to go. And if that's the case, then they'll wind up being right. All right. Who do you get next? The 75th overall pick in this draft. Nick Martin, Oklahoma State, the inside line back.

That caught my eye. The 49ers drafted him. I had someone from the league tell me at the senior bowl, keep an eye on this kid. He's really good. And to be honest with you, I loved his. tape. He had 140 tackles in 83 solo tackles in 2023.

But here's the, this is what the deal for me, and this is a good lesson. There's a couple, Pat Bryant, the receiver from Illinois, this is another lesson for me. If you love a player, if you love the tape, stick to your guns, right? Because I really did like Nick Martin. But he's 511, 5, 221, and he missed

most of last year with the knee injury. And I'm thinking to myself, who's going to take a chance on an undersized linebacker who had some problems saying health? And you know who took the chance? San Francisco. And here's why this could really work. Because if you're a San Francisco fan,

you know that Drey Greenlaw was a guy that went in the fifth round, I believe, a little undersized, weight-wise, he was fine, he was sub-six-foot, run both these guys. When he watched their tape, Greenlaw, when he came out of Arkansas, Martin out of Oklahoma State, speed. It is speed on tape, relentless, just chasing down running backs. Are they good at getting off blocks?

Nope, they're not great. That's not their strength. But they play fast. And when San Francisco drafts, Dray Greenlaw, they got an immediate starter. He started out of games at first year. I think 12 or 13 games the next year, right next to Fred Warner. When you got Fred Warner, you can put a lot of guys next to him and they're going to look good because Fred Warner's so good.

But you look at that. He started 22 of the first 29 games he played. In 2019, the 49ers gave up the second fewest yards per game. in the league the next year was the fifth fewest yards per game in the league so they took a rookie who's a fifth round draft book insert him at linebacker and we're off and running now i get it they're loaded everywhere else man and they're there maybe not they're not that roster that they were then but you remember who the offense is court i mean the defense coordinator was for them in 2019 robert salla guess who's back yeah guess who's back down baby yes you knows exactly how to coach

linebackers, how to use them in a scheme, how to develop them. I look at that pick and I feel like I'm going to be kicking myself. This is the one where you look, look, you talked about it before. I don't have all the answers. I'm trying to, like, I look at these picks and I say to myself, what are the lessons that I can learn here? And I believe that this one might be if he works out. Now he's had some, like the Greenlaw stuff is going to be very similar to this kid.

It's going to be very interesting because Greenlaw and Martin, whether or not they're able to stay healthy. That was Greenlaw's falling out as he has not. been able to stay healthy. And unfortunately, I believe you just suffered another serious injury last week. So they'll have to stay healthy. But this is one that I think I'll look back and say, take chances on guys who aren't height, weight, speed guys, if their production and tape is good enough.

Yeah. All good points. And I like that. Like, let's learn. Let's learn. And maybe the pick doesn't work out, but there's still a lesson to learn from it, right? Right. Yeah.

of if I let and I tried to do that more this year than ever before and I'll get to a player in a little bit here that that I did that on and I'm comfortable bringing it up today and we'll see how it all plays out. I'm going to kick I'm going to kick over to the Saints. I got a Saints player. Okay. Well, I want to make this perfect. There are two players that I was just way off compared to their board.

Okay. But I also want to make it perfectly clear. Like this ain't a Saints thing, man. Like, I have a lot of respect for Mickey Loomis, that organization. I also, like, absolutely love Tyler Shuck and love the fact that they had the onions to hang there at 40 and wait for their guy to get there. First onions of the 2026 draft cycle. Exactly. So with all that said, I just wasn't a Kelvin Banks guy like some other people.

And when I say some other people, I mean a lot of people in the league. And I'm okay with that. And it wasn't like the, I'm not going with chalk here. Like the Georgia game, he got exposed. Like actually, it wasn't, it wasn't good, but it wasn't as bad as people. Like this urban lore of like, you know, this like legend of the Georgia game. Like, yeah, it wasn't great. It wasn't good.

But like, it wasn't like devastating when I went back and studied it. for like a third time at the end. I just, I think there's work that he has to do. I just, you know, the off-balance stuff. Top-heavy. Top-heavy, off-balance. But I see, but I also see the athleticism. I see the quickness.

I see potential there. And that's what they're betting on. But for the Saints, where the Saints were smart was they got out ahead. Unlike the combo pick I just talked about with the Carolina, Tetaroa, McMillan. Nick Scorton could have been Jalen Walker, Michael Williams, and Trey Harris. There ain't no combo pick here, bud, you know. Like, they knew the offensive tackles were going to go.

They had the right information. So they took him at nine. And I'm cool with that. And you look at their depth chart too. Like, I don't know where he's going to play. Like Fulag, Tiles Fuaga played at left tackle and held up pretty well last year. Can they kick him to right? Is Kelvin Red?

Here's, that's my question. I do like the fact that maybe it's right tackle. Because people who tend to lean my side on Kelvin Banks think, think maybe he's better off at right tackle or guard, maybe early in his career and let him develop, right? If they truly believe in him, like, all right, left tackle for you, Fouaga goes to right tackle and we're off. And Trevor Penning, remember, they didn't pick up the fifth year option.

So it makes a lot of football sense because there is versatility. And if you got to play Fulaga back at left tackle, and if he's not ready at tackle, you play penning for one more year, kick him inside the guard. So it gives them versatility and flexibility up front. So I understand that. And I also understand there wasn't another tackle in round two. So that's where maybe I just didn't rank the tackles as high in general,

but it was more so I liked and Membo was gone Will Campbell was gone like the run was there so I just it was just a big gap from where I had him

at 35 overall to 9 and but the bigger one and this one's going to be on me their 71st I think we'll see their 71st overall pick their third round pick

Vernon Broughton I had his 214 in the draft. Huh. I looked at your rankings. You had them a lot higher. I had 143 difference. I think there's going to be a lot.

I want to know what I had. I think you had him like one. I was pretty sure I had him higher. You had them a lot higher. I don't know how I saw yours, but I saw yours somewhere. Oh, I was scrolling through the,

through ESPN.com where you handled all the draft track or something. It showed it. That's where I saw. Yeah, I had him 132. So not I still, I was still low on them. Yeah. I don't think I did a good enough job with the later round guys of circling back this year because we got in October 22nd start and we were starting a show.

And I think I, if they weren't in the top like 200, I wasn't circling back like I would have in most years. And I hope I would have. And I went back and watched more tape today. I like his upside more than I remember. I love the 6-5, 3-11, 35-inch arms. Didn't work out at the combine. He's quickened flashes. Like there's some plays where he stands guys up.

He's up and down, but the highlights are impressive, right? The highlights are impressive, but there's also a lot of like when you're studying through the reel of the key plays where he, like, he'll get in the backfield and it's the Titanic trying to turn on, leaving his feet. So like he's not there yet, but also I want to, I had to remind myself and I'll remind Saints fans, like, this is a guy that played behind two NFL defensive tackles and no one else was getting a lot of play. And so like this year was a real like fast learning curve for for the Texas defensive tackles, right? And so and I think that they were, I think they were drafted accordingly to be quite honest. like Alfred Collins and Vernon Brutton were drafted with, there's more potential here. They only got one season of game experience, you know?

And so I think that that absolutely factored in when you look at what they were playing with playing behind and two NFL guys. So I'll be interested to see the Saints draft because I'm studying very closely, Tyler Shuck, and I can't wait to see how that plays out. We'll talk about that later as we go through all the review stuff. but those two players in particular, I had very different grades on compared to where they went. Yeah.

It's going to be a Saints pod, baby. I didn't even send you this pick in the initial list that I sent you, but how can I not talk about Devin Neal, the running back from Kansas that the Saints took with the 184th pick in the sixth round, who I had ranked at 101. I'm glad we're bringing balance here. I took him out of, I took him out of the top

100, because I knew he wasn't going to go there, but I really wanted him in there, man. I feel like he's that good. End up going 184. So the league spoke. But I'll say this, man. Look at Kellynne. Look at Kellynne Moore. First of all, let's start with Alvin Camara.

Can we get him some help, please? I think he led the lead the team in targets. 248 carries. I think the next guy was Jamal Williams with 48 carries. He's missed at least the game every year since his rookie season. Banged up, let's get him some help. We need to get him some help, especially because I'll tell you right now,

Kellynne Moore wants to run the damn football, man. Look at where he's been. Yes. Philadelphia last year. Led the, this is regular season, so don't start yapping at me about playoff carries and all that junk. Regular season, the Eagles led the league by far in carries. He went to the Chargers for a year.

He had Justin Herbert, the running game wasn't what it was. They just aired it out. I think they were in the 20s. That is the only other time in his career as an offense coordinator that he hasn't been in the top of the top half of the league and usually a lot earlier than that and carries his teams have been. And you look at those, the 2022, I didn't word that well, I hope everyone gets it. You look at 2022 Cowboys, you look at the 2021 Cowboys,

those offenses, they went 12 and 5 both those years. They ran the ball. And I think he's looking to do something similar to what he has. bad there when he had Zeke because you don't have Seekwan. Look, Camera is awesome. He's not built like Saquan. He can't do the workload like Seekuan again. He's shown that. His body's not going to hold up. He's tough and you want to get as many touches as you could possibly can, but I think he's better off if you manage his workload long term. So now you do need a number two back. And I think he wants to do what he did with Zeke Elliott and Tony Pollard when he was at Dallas, when it was

one A and one B. And look at the, look at the rest of that debt chart. I mean, who's that running back? To me, it's going to be Devin Neal. It's not Kendrae, it's not Kendrae Miller. It's not Clyde Edwards-Helair, who hasn't, you know, really panned out since he got drafted and who I love coming out to LSU, but just hasn't turned out to be the player that we thought he was going to be. Marcus Yarns, I love that as a free agent signing, the kid from Delaware who flashed

at the senior bowl and flashes on tape. I love all that. Devin Neal is going to get some carries, man. They need him to get some carries. If Kellemore is, especially look at their situation in quarterback. They need to run the ball. They need to take pressure off Alvin Camara. And Kellemore does a nice job.

They do a lot of zone concepts in their run game, inside zone, outside zone. But they mix some power. They mix a counter. And Devin Neal is an experienced running back coming out of college. They could do all of that for you. He can help you out the passing game. He's scheme versatile in terms of the way he runs. He's big enough to carry some of the workload.

I think that they get this kid in the sixth round, and we're going to look back on it and say, halfway through the season and be like, This is playing meaningful snaps for them. He is producing for them. And how in the world did he last that long? Yeah. I'm a, I'm a Neil fan as well,

but not as big a Neil fan as you were. You stole Omar and Hampton from you. You stole Devin Neal from me. That is actually, that is sort of true. But it's just a great landing spot for him. It's a great landing spot. It's a great landing spot. The one downfall would be this is that if the past game,

right. If they start seeing a lot of heavy boxes, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough sledding in some of those situations. But long term, I mean, we're talking the four-year rookie contact. In past protection, you're talking about, right? No, I think he's going to be all right in past protection. I think there's a lot of guys who come out. Listen, for every Trayvion-Henderson, there's 100 guys who need to work on their pass pocket.

And we can agree on that, right? And Trayvion and Henderson out of Ohio State was the best by far. Devin Neal isn't great. But I think he can get there. he's willing he's big you work on his technique a little bit he'll be all right he's not i wouldn't rely on on week one but i think he'll get there all right i'm going to switch over jalen nol no secret one of my favorite players in this draft i yeah i just don't i didn't care i knew he wasn't going in at 30 where i put him i knew he wasn't going to be the third best receiver taken i did think he was

going to go late second. He went pick 79. Item 30. He was the 11th receiver taken. Item is the third. Yeah. Now, I can sit here and tell you he ran a 4-3-9. He had a 41.5 inch vertical jump and 11-2 broad jump and 23 reps on the bench press. But you're not going to do it. I can tell you that he's unbelievably crisp and like savvy getting in and out of routes. I can tell you that he's explosive and he can open things up for this offense. I can tell you all those things. I can tell you that he's a starting slot right away.

But you won't. And move over Christian Kirk. Here comes Noel. But why did he, why did he fall to 79? Well, he fell to 79. And I've shared it before. And I try to be balanced on all of it. But I was willing to, I don't, not overlaught.

look, but I just, I just think it's going to work. Okay. But, but to be fair, why does he fall to 79? Well, the league spoke, as you said, and the league said, yeah, well, we see all that explosiveness, but we, we see a smaller, at best number three slot receiver who has a very small catch radius, short arms, 29 and a half inch arm length, doesn't make a ton of catches where he's going up and getting it making unbelievable adjustments, all that stuff. He should. He could do that a little bit, though. He should do it a little bit.

But not saying not a ton of it. Five muff punts had some bad drops and some moments. I don't think, I think it was more like focus, you know, that kind of stuff. But we'll see. Yeah. Those are the reasons. Short arms, short, small catch radius had some drops, five month puns. You add all those things up and you're looking at a smaller catch radius guy who,

yes, is explosive, but I can't count in the first two rounds I want to get someone I believe is going to be a starter. And I'd like to draft my slot starter eventually if that's what he is in the third. And they got Jaden Higgins. But what I love is the fit. Like tank Dell, unfortunately, it's MCL, PCL, ACL, and dislocated kneecap, like devastating. Right. They had Nico Collins missed five games with the hamstring last year. Stefan Diggs only played eight games before Taryn is ACL and now is in New England. Okay. So there's a lot of question marks with a quarterback who now is going into his third year.

The window is getting smaller, not on, not on C.J. Stroud and this organization's chances of winning, it's getting shorter on the, on his rookie salary cap implications. The rookie money. Yeah. Yeah. So we're like, we got to do it now. We got to do it quickly. And so they bring in Jaden Higgins in the second and Jalen Knoll in the third.

And I probably, if you had to ask Nick Casario, we probably was shocked that Noel was still sitting there in the third. I think eventually he's going to wind up being the starter and take over that role for Christian Kirk. But right now you got Kirk and Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins and John Mechie and Jalen Knoll. And so now you've got a bunch of, you got five receivers that should make. impacts after everything that fell apart a year ago. Can we talk about the larger conversation we've kind of had about slot receivers and that, and I agree with you on this,

that they are starters now, that your number three receiver is a starter. And maybe teams aren't seeing, you know, Noel as a number three receiver as a rookie, but do you think that maybe the league doesn't see it the way we do yet, that they're not ready to make to value a number three receiver as a starter yet? I think that's absolutely the case.

And I, and you hear, like, I have really fun conversations with people in the league. It's like, yeah, we kind of speak out of both sides of the nickel is a starter now. We don't have the, a will, a Sam, a Mike linebacker. It's two off ball linebackers and a nickel. And the wide receiver is a starter now. We don't have a fullback. It's not, we're not 22. Right.

But it's still the nickel. It's still the slot, you know? Right. They still want to pay them like the nickel on the slot. Right. They still want to pay him. So, so yeah, I do. I'm trying to pull this up.

Hold on one second. I want to pull it by position. I feel like it hurt Jalen Lane, too, the Virginia Tech kid, who's undersized slot receiver. He's got some really nice tape, explosive. He went a little later. he went late in the fourth I thought he might have gone earlier in the fourth maybe even late in the third

but you look at like the slot receivers in the league it's like Khalil Shakir and even like to Mario Douglas I know that's not a good group Zay Flowers Jerry Judy I'm just going down the list here Christian Kirk as we just mentioned

Elijah Moore Travis Hunter now for Jacksonville Elijah Moore. There's just, Jacobi Myers, Ladd-McConkey, you know, like there,

Wondale Robinson, C.D. Lamb, Devante Smith, Dibo Samuel. Okay? Jaden Reed. There's just a lot of damn good, productive slot receivers in the league.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what the answer is there. It would be interesting to see if that evolves, if that catches up to what we're thinking or if we're just off on that market. Jackson Smith and Jigbo. Yeah.

So I don't know. All right. Next for you. I'm going with Cameron Williams, the offensive tackle out of Texas. And this is an interesting one for me. He was pick 207. The Eagles take them.

I had him ranked at 113. So 113. Listen, that's outside of my top 100. I think this kid's a day three, early day three pick. Let's just be clear about that. But what pick did you go in? He went 207. Yeah.

So why did he go late? Yeah. Why did he go late? Honestly, the tape wasn't that good. I mean, he was, Jack Sawyer. I was going to say, I don't feel like you liked him that much. Well, I had him at 113.

So I thought he was, at one point I had a third round grade on him. Early on in the process, I thought he had a chance to go real early. Going into the season, the word was that this is a talent kid that's going to blow up. But it only had one start in 2023. So we didn't know much about him other than he is town. He flashed a little bit the year before, and this was going to be the year that they were going to have the two talented offensive tackles, much like LSU.

Coming into the year was LSU's offensive tackles and Texas's offensive tackles were the two tannums. So if you watch the Ohio State game, you saw the Strip Sack of Ohio State versus Texas, Jack Sawyer beat Cameron Williams. He beat him clean, man. And Cameron Williams had some tough times in the Georgia games. And listen, he's an inconsistent player, but the tools are there. And not only that, he is. He played hurt the entire season.

I mean, he was hurt the entire season. He had to go through surgery after the season. He spoke about it at the combine where his heel was locking up. And I just, you know, I was, someone's going to bet on this kid's traits, 34 and a half inch arms, moves pretty good on tape, inexperienced, you know, not super young, but 21. I thought someone was going to take a chance of the tools early on day three. And what happens is the Eagles get him at Pick 207.

And why is that significant? because the Eagles offensive line coach is the best in the universe. I mean, he is, he is, he is outrageous. I'm just going to read this. His name is Jeff Stalind. He's led seven players to 26 Pro Bowls. In 2018, he went down to Tampa to,

I think the story is right. I hope I get this right. He went down to Tampa to watch this, this rugby player from Australia, work out. And had never played football. Yeah. And went back, was like, yeah, let's take it.

I see some things. Let's draft him. So the Eagles draft, Jordan Milata in the seventh round of 2018. By 2020, he's a starter. He's been their starting tackle since 2020. That's how good this guy is. Yes. And look at their offensive line group.

They don't need Cameron Williams. They don't need him to play today. They don't need him to play tomorrow. if they can hide him on a roster spot and then get to work with this kid who hasn't seen a lot of snaps and then, you know, Leonard Johnson is aging.

Who knows what's happening contract-wise in a year or two? What they have to do in terms of managing their cap? I love it. Dude, it's just, it's howie, it's like a, it's just a great Howie Rosen pick. You're getting a kid with great traits who had a down year probably because he was hurt

and there's not a lot of tape on him because he's inexperienced. But you, and here's the other thing that I know. I know. They took three off. They took Miles Hinton, too, by the way, the kid from Michigan who we kind of liked on tape, right? And Drew Kendall, and Drew Kendall, the Boston college kid,

who we didn't maybe like as much, but we'd heard a lot of buzz about, like, this kid can maybe play. You know if they drafted an offensive lineman, they went down, they walked down the hallway to his office and said, take a look at this kid, what do you think? And if he told them there's something to work with, my God, there's something to work with. Like, he's, he's that could have an offensive line coach.

I just look at who took him. And I'm saying to myself, man, this is going to be, I think this is going to be a guy where we look back. I feel good about that ranking. Did I feel good about a player that needed to develop? It could end up being a starter and if not a swing tackle. But it's wild. And I won't name any other organizations even like to throw it out.

Like it is wild. The conversation we'd be having about him if it was another organization. Right. It's a lot about the landing side. I'm saying there's a hand where it's like, yeah, I don't know if we're ever going to see him. Right. You know what I mean? Like should have gone back to school, man.

How about Braden Swenson? I feel like the draft was happening fast. We're in Rissillo's couch. She's talking about he's got short shorts on and making Aaron Hernandez jokes and all sorts of stuff that like is right on the verge, the edge. And I just feel like we didn't dig into this. I had him rank 78, bro. Yeah. I get it. I didn't.

I was close. He went pick 146, the LSU Edge. The New England Patriots took it. It's kind of like your deal, man. It's not like not to the extreme, but you're telling me that Mike Vrable isn't going to get the most out of this guy. Here's the knock. Here's why.

There's always a why. Why did Braden Swenson? I had him 82 just so you know. Go ahead. So like same neighborhood. 78, 82, almost identical, actually. That's weird. Yeah, it is a little.

He went 146, almost twice the number of where we had him ranked. And like, I thought worst case was fourth round for this guy. Worst case. Right? And even talked to the scouts, like a lot of, a lot of third round grades. But worst case, fourth. He went in the fifth, eight picks into the fifth round. He was the 22nd edge defender taken.

You had 87 correct of the top 100, right? Yes. So think of that. It was either 86 or 87. Somebody said 86. We'll say 87 because we're being nice. So you hit on 87% of your top 100. This was one of the 13.

Yeah, and I'm cool if it's like 110, 115, 120. Right. 146 is like, I've got a red flag. So now we're talking about it. So why didn't he? Why didn't he go? Because the Patriots also passed on him two or three times, two.

You know, negatives, DPR only, designated pass rush or only. Not overly stout and all that. One year, two stops, really one year break out with the sacks. Okay. I'm not going to go through all the numbers. I don't want to make this over an hour show. today we're in the this is the off season now um there were reports that he ran like a four six eight or something but then it came out he really ran a four eight oh and that's a

i saw the four six eight i saw the four six eight time on them yeah the league didn't so right you're asking what the league spoke the league and that's the 56 percentile of that just and he's not one of the bigger ones okay um but but then also like the three cone that he ran at the combine, the shuttle that they ran, he ran the combine. They weren't terrible numbers. But when you're talking about a DPR,

a designated pass rusher, you want that guy to be like, you know, like Jalen Walker, like, you know, like a person. Obviously those are the highest level, but you want guys that have like,

that traits that pop, right? And, and his didn't. So those are the reasons why. But I look. at him at six six three and a half essentially two 555 and i look at the place he's in and all of a sudden i'm like well for him it's probably better better off that he went in the fifth of new england

than maybe some other spots right and again he has he has time to develop you know like they get harold landry he'll learn behind they get keon white it's not a great group but i'm just saying like he'll be in a he is best suited to play 15 20 snaps some obvious be his passing downs, develop, don't get rushed in, make sure we're working on the consistency and variables there like every day in practice. Have you ever been to, I had the privilege of going to Ohio State practices, several of them, years ago when Urban was there. I would have loved if I had my Apple watch on to feel my heart or see my heart rate,

beats per minute, watching Variable. coach defense of blindman man like it is intense and i'm not saying i mean he's a head coach now i'm not saying he's but like he is going to work that you know he's going to he's going to squeeze all the juice out of out of this cat i'm i'm excited to see that any anyone one else for you no i didn't make any other mistakes i know you did i know you got everything i got everything else right one more i was surprised and i just want to throw it out there you and i both watch tape on him. That's why I wanted to kind of bring it up last. I went back. Marcus Bow.

Mm-hmm. This was an interesting one. I had him right 63rd. He went 154, Mench. That's almost 100 spots. I went back. I sent some texts. It wasn't a medical thing. He had the broken leg in 2023. Remember, it was interesting. So Mench and I were watching him, in Mobile, I think. We're actually watching, we're kind of watching a couple of tackles,

but also watching Texas A&M's defensive front. We're watching Scorton and the Shamars and all of that. And we watched an early, was Oregon? This is just off the top of my head. I want to, or maybe we watched,

or we watched Connerley. We watched a game early in the season. I can pull it up. And he was really struggling. And we were surprised. Yeah, wasn't the field wet? The field was wet. He was losing his ground.

But it turns out, right? It was Oregon. It was Oregon. I thought it was Oregon. It was a wet field. It looked like he didn't trust his footing. It looked like what I didn't because we, I was watching the tape before I did the background and all that stuff. This is back in January.

What I didn't realize was he was coming off like broken leg the year before. Okay. And talking to scouts like, yeah, the tape earlier. wasn't as good as the tape late and I was like I know like I remember asking this question he was still recovering like and gaining confidence and trust in his leg and still was recovering but but as the season went on and we started watching the tape like we watched against like oh hi we watched some physical because then let me take a step back very athletic great range gets out on polls and really good in a in zone blocking scheme but the questions were always is he's

strong enough? Is he physical at the point of attack? He's going to be in his own blocking scheme, but does he, and he's got those short 32 inch arms. And so while he wants to play left tackle and is adamant he's going to, he's probably going to have to kick in the guard. And so now he's going up against grown ass men, 310, 330, not 280, not Jack Sawyer, and Tuimolow. Okay, he's going up against. So that, that's why he falls. But I love this take. late and i and i and i saw a different player and i just i like this pick i look at this is the intriguing part for me is for the new york uh no it's for the new york giants right the intriguing part for me is and i and i remember you and i both talking about it and i don't

remember if you agreed with me or not you probably did you probably got the idea in my head uh but i remember saying with marcus bow who was a fifth round pick right Yeah, fifth round pick. I remember saying, us talking about, man, he'd be good at center. Yes. He'd be good at center. That seems like he's built to play that position. Now they've got John Michael Schmitz.

I don't know the contract, you know, second round pick 2023. I don't know what the future is there. But my point is whether it's a tackle, it's probably not a tackle, a guard, guard or center. Yeah. It gives them some versatility, and I think that they nailed it. But what's my lesson here? 32-inch arms, not physical enough. An undersized guy who's going to kick inside, you better be sure about the center part.

Because if not, we may have a guy who, yeah, moves really well, but might get his ass handed to him inside. Yeah, you know, was something that was interesting to me is when I watched him on tape, he has some unusual pass sets that not a lot of guys. use a tackle where he almost attacks and then steps back. It's almost like a head fake and he does these kind of different pass sets. And to me, there was even a coach at the Senior Bowl after a one-on-one rep. And he won, he won the rep.

And he kind of jumped out of the guy and then kind of backpedaled. And the coach on the defensive line said, no one sets like that, man. Like that's just not a thing. You don't do that. And then they blew the whistle. And I remember thinking to myself, man, is that going to scare away some teams? it's just so unusual. And then it's funny how things work.

I'm on X one day. And Joe Thomas releases a video of all the different pass sets he had in the league. And I was like, man, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And it was good for me to see because he had mixed up all these different sets that he'd used. And Bo was good about it. He was good about how he used it and mixed it in and all that stuff. So it was a good learning experience for me of, you know, coaches, coach it differently. Players use it differently and all of those things.

And if it works, it works. But at the end of the day, I think you're right. It's going to be that length. It's going to be that position fit in how physical he is. This is fun, man. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, a little self-assessment, self-inflicted wounds. Only time.

But it's fun to do. I appreciate everyone. You only made four mistakes. It's great. I think I made six. McMillan, Kelvin, Beck. I didn't even get to Tyler Booker, Vernon Broughton, Jalen, Noel, Braden Swinson, Marcus Bowler. Yeah.

Yeah, this is fun. We've got a bunch coming up. We're back on Thursdays, Mondays and Thursdays in the offseason. Check out the McShay report. We got a lot. Again, we had meetings today. We got like, I don't know, between like four and 600 different responses and questions and things to do in the off season.

We're actually spending time consolidating it, going through, and truly trying to provide for you guys in our audience what you're asking for this off season. We're also on the back end starting to grind tape now. 2026 draft, the prospects, the every position. And we're going to roll out a whole series in July. And then in August, I'm coming back. I was thinking about this name. Stu on this, Munch, before we go.

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. What was it? Did you run this by Marissa first, I hope? I did. And she actually, she, she gave me one of those like half-ass chuckles. wasn't I'm worried I'm going to forget it now. Whereas like, yeah, that's fine.

That'll work. You know, like, rolling. Yeah. She didn't say no. Almost like you think you're clever, don't you? The way too early mock, we already released. And you can check that out on YouTube, Spotify, and subscribe to the McShay report, if you want to read the whole thing.

We go into deep, and we explain the whole Archmanning situation to you as well. Why can't I remember? But I wanted to, so in August, I'm going to do this. the first ever, I was to say appropriately, way too early, appropriately early. Appropriately early. That's what it was. Appropriately early.

And then the appropriately early. Because it's appropriate because we've actually watched tape and we know the players. And I actually feel good about plugging a guy in versus I've seen four minutes of a highlight clip where I was watching a different player and I saw him or I talk to a scout and they think that like that. But it's a good exercise. It's a fun exercise, but that will be part of our offseason work as we get ready for the 2026, 2025 college football season and NFL season.

All right, we're out of here. Trying not to go over an hour. I think I just did it. Later. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit R.G.G.

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