The McShay Show - Super Bowl Roster Lessons, a Travis Hunter Draft Debate, and Texans GM Nick Caserio on Working With Bill Belichick and Building Around C.J. Stroud

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Welcome back to ‘The McShay Show’! The guys open by discussing Travis Hunter’s draft stock and whether he could fall out of the top five picks. Then, they dissect the Chiefs and Eagles rosters and reflect on how each Super Bowl team was built through the draft. To close, Todd and Steve talk life in the league with Texans general manager Nick Caserio. (0:00) Welcome to The McShay Show! (0:44) Today's Show: Super Bowl Roster Building + Texans GM Nick Caserio (4:31) BREAKING: Muench is NOT GOOD (4:56) "Travis Hunter is NOT a Top 5 Pick." - Muench (19:34) Thank you to fans for Muench’s new social handle! (22:04) Follow Muench's New Account: @yougoodmuench (22:53) How The Eagles Built a Super Bowl Roster (32:07) How The Chiefs Built a Super Bowl Roster (35:42) Which Contenders Are Primed To Build Through The 2025 NFL Draft? (41:07) The Decision Maker Series with Nick Caserio is Next (44:41) Nick Caserio: Houston Texans, EVP & GM (45:11) What was your Process for Scouting CJ Stroud? (48:39) How do you Best Support your QB? (50:05) How do you Find the Right Players for the Texans? (51:10) Players Who Stood Out During Scouting? (53:05) Top Priorities for the Houston Texans this Offseason (54:36) Hardest Lesson Learned Working for Bill Belichick? (57:13) Synergy Between Front Office and Coaching Staff (58:47) Technology Advancements and Scouting (1:01:11) What Would You Tell Your Younger Self About Scouting? (1:02:38) Benefits of Working as Both a Scout and Coach (1:05:51) The Best Part of Being a GM (1:07:12) Thanks For Watching! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Todd McShay Guests: Steve Muench and Nick Caserio Producers: Tucker Tashjian, Mark Panik, Conor Nevins, and Daniel Comer Social: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's break down these Super Bowl rosters and learn some lessons. Let's fix Munch's joke of a social handle. Three days till Super Sunday and just 77 days till the NFL draft. Mench, you good? Actually, I'm not great, man. Wait a second. What? Mench isn't good.

Mench isn't good. Holy shit. Mench isn't good. Play me that music anyway. We're 100 days into the show. Over 100 days, I think. We've done this. We've been doing this show. And it's the first time that Mench isn't good.

We'll get to that in a second. I honestly, like this is organic. I have no idea what's fathering the big fella. But listen, it's Super Bowl week. I thought about it a lot last night. Like we're not going to contend with programming on Radio Row and have all these celebrities here doing all the stuff that everyone does Super Bowl week, right?

But we got a lot of interesting stuff to get to. We're still preparing for the NFL draft as 30 NFL teams are right now. We've got some stuff. we want to cover. Mentsch apparently is frustrated by something. We're going to get into the Super Bowl rosters too. We want to look at how Brett Veach and the Chiefs organization with Andy Reid developed their roster, built it, right? Howie Roseman, the general manager, the mover, the shaker, how he built this roster, what they did in the draft to kind of build the foundation of those organizations. So we'll get into that. We'll apply some of that logic to what's some

contending teams in this year's draft picks like, I don't know, 17 to 30. Some of those teams could do if they're going to follow some of this blueprint that we're going to walk through. I love this new series we've got going, Munch. I really do. The decision maker, the decision maker series with the general managers, I promise you, Tuesday show, Eric Dacosta, I've never gotten more texts and phone calls about a show or a specific thing we've done.

Eric DeCost's candor and his willingness to really like thoughtfully answer questions, I think caught everyone off guard. And I think it set the foundation for us in this, this GM series that we're doing called the Decision Maker series, okay? Did you come to that name? I actually did not. I didn't think so. That's too good for us.

It's way too good for us. I don't know if it was Connor or Dan or Tucker or Eduardo or anyone behind the scenes. But someone smarter than us came up with the name. name the decision maker series. And that's exactly what it is. Who's pulling the trigger? Who's the decision maker? And we talked to one of them, a playoff, a playoff team, a general manager and Eric DeCosta. And we also have talked to another one, as we alluded to on Tuesday. And we're going to share that other conversation that we had with a general manager when we sat down with the senior bowl that was equally enlightening. Okay. It was equally thoughtful.

and Nick Casario, the general manager of the Houston Texans, you'll hear that interview on the back of this. We just sat down and started talking. It wasn't about like, what players do you like in this year's draft or who's standing out at the senior bowl or what draft? It was purely getting to know the general manager, what makes them tick, what's their process, how they're utilizing advanced technology, all the things that go into their day-to-day decision-making. And we were shocked with both interviews. Like we looked at each other as they walked off and back to the next meeting that they had. Like, my goodness, these general managers, like they want a platform.

They want to be able to explain what they're doing. And it feels like everyone in football is out there talking about who they are, selling their brand, selling what they're doing. General managers only get to the podium and have a mic in front of them. If they've made a draft pick, if they've cut a player, if they've signed a player, you never really get to know what's going on. So I'm in love with the series. I can't wait to get to the combine and continue it with a lot more general managers.

And we'll build a series off of it. But this is a great foundation for it. And Nick Casario is next up in the decision maker series. With all that said, what's up, Munch? Listen. What's driving you crazy? Travis Hunter, Mr. Do Everett. everything, Mr. Heisman Trophy

winner from Colorado, who I love, and I want to be clear about that, this is going to get spun on me. I know it is. It sounds like a Kuiper preface, but go ahead. It's going to get spun on me. He is not a top five pick in this draft. Look, we're getting in the mock draft season, right? And big boards

are one thing. And Travis Hunter is two, maybe three on my big board, right? So keep it all in mind, keep it all in perspective. But when you start looking at mock drafts, you start looking at needs, you start realizing the quarterbacks can go earlier. You start realizing how good this edge class is.

I start looking at it, and I think it's more probable than not that Travis Hunter doesn't go on those first five picks. I think you're dead ass wrong. Listen, it's so bad. It's a problem in my family. My son Tyler is a huge Patriots fan, and he tells me if the Patriots pass on Hunter at four, if he's there, that he will riot. All right.

Why? I guess this is the natural follow-up. I'm convinced. the Cam Ward's going to go one, the quarterback from Miami. I'm convinced that the Tennessee Titans. The Titans will need a quarterback. They'll take Ward one. If they don't, I think Abdul Carter from Penn State, they need an edge, right?

Okay. Cleveland's going to trade Miles Garrett. Why don't we throw up the NFL draft picks if we have that graphic, so we can walk through this. But Cleveland at number two. So if you're watching along on YouTube or Spotify, here you see the top five picks. Tennessee at one, Cleveland at two, the New York Giants at three, all with quarterback. needs, I guess somewhat to Mention's point. Right. New England Patriots sitting at four. They've got their guy in Drake May,

Jacksonville at five, obviously with Trevor Lawrence. Go ahead, Mitch. So I think that when you get to Cleveland, they trade Miles Garrett. Well, if they like a quarterback enough there, to your point, I should say that, and or if Cam Ward falls to two, then it's going to be a quarterback or I think it's going to be an edge. I think it's going to be Mikel Williams out of Georgia. Or it could be a dual card or if Cam Ward goes one. Exactly. It's going to be one of the two edges or one of the or cam ward right let's go in that direction now we're talking about shadora sanders is dropping hints all over the place he's going to the giants they need a quarterback i think they're in the raiders i've i've heard both but go ahead yeah true

fair enough i think that the giants in our position where they need to take a quarterback this year so even if ward's off the board i think it's sanders now we get to new england at four i could see them doing it. Don't get me wrong. They need too much help up front. I think one of these offensive tackles, pick one of your favorites. They're all bunched up together a little bit. Pick your favorite, Miche, whoever it is, I think that offensive tackle is probably going to go for. And if not, they could go an edge. They could go Shamar Stewart from Texas A&M. Why? Because you build teams up front first. And New England is a team that has way too many needs in the trenches to be going and getting a guy on the perimeter as talented as Hunter is. Again, number two or three,

my board. The dude is a stud. Don't get me wrong. But when you're looking at needs and how you build you build rosters, you start up front. So again, I don't think New England's going to take him. I don't think, I think New England wishes it was in a position to take him. They're not. They're just not. So then you get to five. Jacksonville's interesting. Jacksonville could be. I don't. Let's go back to New England. Yeah. Hold on. I don't actually disagree with that premise. Well, I, I disagree with your overall premise here. And I'm not, Travis Hunter is only a generational talent. If you can figure out the perfect way to handle the load management and allow him to be the best version of himself on both sides of the ball while keeping him healthy for a 17 game NFL season and hopefully one day into the playoffs. That's what would make him a generational talent.

He is a damn good cornerback. He's a damn good wide receiver and I think probably a little bit more advanced. I like him a little bit more as a wide receiver prospect as of the second. Right. And other people in the league do too, but there are others who believe that he's going to be a better cornerback in the league. Regardless, he's only a generational talent. And I use that word because that's what the Tennessee Titans came out and said that, you know, if there's a generational talent and number one, we're going to take him.

and everyone kind of jumped to is that Travis Hunter or is that Abdul Carter, right? Right. But he's only that kind of special talent. I don't want to say only. What makes him go from like an elite corner or a great corner or a great receiver to an exceptional talent is the potential of getting production and playmaking and big play stuff on both sides of the ball. Right? Correct.

Right. So it really is up to the organization that gets him to figure out that fine line, like a fine line of let's develop them as a corner. Let's make him a full-time starting corner. Let's get that playmaking ability. Let's develop a guy who can be a shutdown, take away your number one wide receiver type corner, and give us some big plays along the way. And then let's develop a package.

Let's put an installs every week that gets them the opportunity to be, opportunity to be on the field for, I don't know, 20, 25 plays a game and maybe four or five touches a game, ballpark, okay? Yeah. That's what would make him special. To your point, and while the Patriots are just as capable as any other organization of finding that fine line or messing it up, let's face it. Like, I don't think anyone has the, I don't think because history tells us, no one has had the perfect formula to allow a player to do both. And a, and, and, a very consistent high rep level. Even Dionne Sanders, we talked about it.

Right. What did he have? Like, I got to pull up those numbers again. I think he had like 60, 60 catches and throughout his entire long career in the NFL. It wasn't a lot. I think it was a low number. I was shocked when we looked back like career catches or offensive touches, whatever it was. And then like we looked at like Charles Woodson, champ Bailey, it was like two and three career.

It just, you know, like the impact wasn't there compared to what they were in college. Right. So while the Patriots are just as capable of making it work or mucking it up, I don't disagree that if we're building a foundation with an organization and we're looking at what has worked and we'll get into the Eagles, we'll get into the chiefs. I've talked about other organizations like the Ravens, the Bills, okay, organizations that have sustained success. It's find your quarterback.

And then he can't mask any of the problems on the defensive side. So let's load up in the draft and build a great defense around him. So while he could, while cornerback, he's obviously going to be an integral part. Patriots have a great corner already. And they need edge rushers. They need guys up front.

So I don't, I don't disagree necessarily on the Patriots. And with Mike Vrabel calling the shots, I think he's more inclined to get a, a workhorse up front. So I don't disagree with that. Yeah. And to your point also about you know, building that role for Hunter

and being able to manage that workload, he played an absurd amount of snaps this year. But remember, he missed three games last year, this past year. And then in 2023, he missed three games. And he only played in eight games as a freshman at Jacksonville State. He's a lean dude.

I'm interested to see what he weighs in at. I think he's at a test extremely well at the or at the pro day, whatever he decides to do. But he's already said, just sorry to cut you up, he's already said he's going to, he's going to work out as a cornerback. We've seen this before a lot like, right, guys who were like linebackers who also do some address stuff. He's going to work out as a cornerback at the combine.

He's stating as of now, we'll see what happens. He is going to work out at the combine as a cornerback and then we'll, we'll also participate in some of the wide receiver drills. Just not take people. So he's smart enough to play both ways. He's talented enough to play both ways. But I worry about with the more physical game at the NFL level over if you make a run, 20 games, I mean, let's see how they're able to manage that workload.

As an NFL exec, I would have a little bit of concern there. So again, he's only a generational player. I'll get through the teams here. The last team is Jacksonville. I think that they could take him. But I also think Mason Graham from Michigan, I think is a great pick of five. I think they need to, they're okay on the interior defensive line. They need to shore it up a little bit.

I think Mason Graham is an outstanding talented defensive tackle and helps him out. And if they do, if they do go with a corner, do they want a guy that they know is going to be a corner? Is Will Johnson out of Michigan is inconsistent and he was banged up this year? Do they find that more of an attractive option? Remember, coming into the season, Will Johnson was, I think, a top five player on the board. So that could be another direction they go in. So when I'm looking at it, I feel like more probable than not

that Travis Hunter is going to fall out of those top five picks. And then look at, let's go back and look at just specific positions for like if you were just to play receiver, right? Malik Neighbors, who I think is a better wide receiver prospect than Travis Hunter, it went six. Jamar Chase, who I think was a better wide receiver prospect, went five. Now, Corey Davis went out of Western Michigan. he went he went five in 2017 i think that's an outlier but these guys that are going that early they're

coming out of most of the time it's amari cooper sammy walkins did the same thing uh these are bigger programs these are ohio martin harrison ohio state ls uclemsden you know i like travis hunter and i think he's going to be good against whoever he goes against but he did play a big 12 schedule this year so there's some of the like when you start like adding all of these things up i think there's just enough again number two we or three on my board. I want to like insert this everywhere so people just can't clip me out. You know what I mean? Yep. Great player. But we're talking about a top five. It's, it's your special, if you're a top five receiver. Your special, maybe to a lesser degree at corner. I mean,

because there's, you know, Devin Weatherspoon won three in 2020. Stigley, Gardner, three and four in 2022. Jeff Akuta, three in 2020. But these are guys you're looking at just corner. And I think he's in that conversation. But when I'm looking at the. these teams, I think quarterbacks are going to go earlier than they should. And the edge Russia class being this good, don't hate me, Colorado fans. I love Travis on her. I just think he's going to fall out of the top five. Now, that's going to be in the back of my mind as I go through it.

It's going to be the back of my mind. And I can't wait for me to put them in the top five and for us to have this. Yeah, you'll have him too to spite me. Not despite you because I think it's what's going to happen. But we'll see. Real quickly, let's trans. I just want to spin it forward, like two minutes here. Tucker, if we have the cornerback list, the top cornerbacks, I just did the updated top 100.

And I think this factors into what you're saying because sometimes it's not necessarily about, I always say there's a combo element. And we'll talk to some general managers as we continue to do this, the decision maker series. Because I've had great conversations with general managers in the past just privately about sometimes it's about the combo pick. Right. And it's, all right, I love this player at a certain position. But if I don't take, let's say, the offensive tackle here, the run runs out. I can't get one in the second round.

So why is that important looking at this year's cornerback class? It's actually a better class than I thought, Mensch. And I just wanted to bring that up quickly. So if you're considering Travis Hunter and on this list, if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, we don't have Travis Hunter here because we put it at a wide receiver. I think moving forward, I'm just going to have them in both spots so that we call the graphic, we can have them. But we would have Travis Hunter at number two overall, ahead of Will Johnson at number five overall.

And I'm going to do more digging on Will. I know some people are kind of cooling on him. That's fine. We'll get to it. It's a long process. But Will, so you've got two corners there up at the top. Jade Barron at 24, quite honestly, the more conversations I'm having with people in the league, I think it's going to be higher, Mitch.

I think he could be a top I think he could be a top 15 pick coming out of Texas and I know it's a guy you love and I love and if you watch college football at all this year even if you're not projecting the NFL draft how can you not love this guy he's always around the football so

you got in this cornerback class if you don't take Travis Hunter right Will Johnson you're not going to get him the second time around Jada Baron you're not going to get him the second time around unless you move up Azarea Azariye A, Thomas, the cornerback from Florida State, who I've fallen in love with and watched on tape.

I really liked him. And watching him at the Senior Bowl is where I took it to another level. But then you got Maxwell Hirsten from Kentucky, another guy who had a great week at the Senior Bowl. I think he's fringe for second. And then Chvonne Revel from junior from East Carolina, who could go late first. Darian Porter, Iowa State, who I talked to you about, I think early second for cover three team, you know, the Seahawks traditionally, a lot of teams of the league running that kind of defense now. I think with that the length and the speed that he has, I agree with

you. If Benjamin Morrison clears medically, we're talking about him maybe in the top 25. Quincy Riley from Louisville, the more people we talk to at the senior ball, the more we realize like the appreciation they have for his ball skills and what he does when the ball is in the air. So, Trey Amos, huge playmaker from Ole Miss. Upton Stout is undersized slot corner, but you can get him probably in the third round. So my point is this cornerback class is a lot deeper than I thought. So if you pass on them there, because you want to get an edge rusher, because this class, all of a sudden, like, we're looking at it. Like, damn, this is a really good defensive front class. Right. So that plays into, that factors in as well.

Hoo. You dropped up. I mean, that's okay. Is it that crazy? We're 23 minutes in. We haven't even got to it. We've got Nick Casario coming up. Tucker's at the Super Bowl. He's got he's got to run. So we got to keep things moving here. But I do want to mention quickly. I love, I just love our, I love our group. I love our, I love our community.

I love the fact that we've got our, like we're growing this audience. Have you seen some of the numbers recently? Like Dan put out an email to the executives, like the numbers have like almost doubled in the last couple weeks with the senior bowl. People are watching the show. I've got people texting me from around the league from around sports media, like the interview with Tecosta was awesome. So I feel like we're building this thing. And part of building this is engaging with our audience, right? And one thing we asked of our audience, and they always come

through, right? Like Saturday night shows, the live shows, like they kept us awake and fired up. They always come through. And so we asked this past week on Tuesday, Munch's social handle has been And a source of- It's disgusting. You called it disgusting. What is it? At Scouts Inc. Mench. Like no one even-

No more. Yeah, no more. So it's changed. So I wanted to quickly thank. And there were tons of people who provided their their opinions on what it should be. We asked our audience,

can you please provide, just take a look, see what handles are available out there. Send us some options. So the Regis Guy 84 was one of them. Ben the Cardinals fan was another one. I just wanted to thank a couple of, I mean, there were a whole bunch of them.

We don't have time. We're already 25 minutes into the show. But I just want to say thank you to everyone who did get involved, who sent us some options, mensch weighed all of the options, and he went with the winner. We got to get some merch and send our guy. Yeah, something.

The NFO chairman. So whoever you are NFL chairman, the NFO chairman, which I think is ironic, right? Three of the people that I'm mentioning here have horrible handles as well. The NFL chairman, the Regis guy 84, Ben the Cardinals, the Cardinals fan, like very long, hard to type. Right. So I think, I honestly think they can sympathize with you. But I want you to make the announcement. I know my pain.

I want you to make the announcement for. from the NFO chairman, the winner of this contest, who finally got you a new and better social media handle. What is that moving forward? It is at you good munch. A lot easier to remember, man. Y-O-U-G-O-D-M-H. There's nothing I can do about my last name.

No, there isn't. But he's a munch. All right, so we got that figured out. Moving forward, it's you good, M-O-U-M-U-M-U-E-M-U-E-H. E-N-C-H, M-U-E-N-C-H. And I'm just at McShay-13, and Instagram is T-M-C-H-A-13. So, all right, so we've got that handle. Now I want to get into this.

And I don't, like, it's Super Bowl week. We're not trying to compete with programming and, like, all the nonsense and insanity. But I do think it's interesting, like, from our angle and talking to the general managers and the amount of time we put into the draft into building a roster, I wanted to go through, and I'll start with you. You took the Philadelphia Eagles. When you look at what Howie Roseman has done, and I think majority of it with the NFL draft, what kind of trends? What do you learn when you do a deep dive when you go into the Eagles roster for other general managers around the league that are aspiring to build a roster that is as deep and as talented as the Eagles and is capable of making a Super Bowl run? What trends? What did you find when you looked at the Eagles roster? Well, you talked about when you find your quarterback, your quarterback can mask a lot of weaknesses on offense, right? Yep. You build up your defense.

And this is exhibiting, man. I mean, they've had 10 top 100 picks over the last three years. And, sorry, eight of them have been defensive players. Their last four first round draft picks, all defensive players. They had two in 2023. So that's over the last three years. They've had four first-round picks, all of them defensive players. You look over the last five drafts, 60% of their top 100 picks are defensive players.

55% overall are defensive players. And they're hitting. I mean, that's important that they're hitting. This defense is young and talented, so there's a lot of hits. And you look at, first of all, Harley-Rosman's ability to build this team to the draft is crazy. me. It's wild. I went back and I was like, I'm looking at their roster and I'm thinking to myself, they drafted seven of the 11 starters they have on defense, okay? But that's a little misleading because that doesn't count Nicoby Dean who's out with a knee injury right now. So now it goes up to

eight out of 11. And now it's even more misleading because you have to remember that they signed read Blankenship, the safety out of Middle Tennessee State in 2020 as an undrafted free agent. All of a sudden, that's nine out of 11 players on defense that they've brought in. Young, fast, hungry. You look at Quinn Young Mitchell. They got the, they got him 22nd overall last year. He was really great in coverage this year, but everyone was like, oh, no picks. He didn't have any interceptions.

He's got two in the playoffs. Nolan Smith, the guy that took late in the first round in 2023, leads the NFL and sacks in the postseason with four. These guys are just coming on. So they were holding teams to 18.3 points in the playoffs. He's built a great defense. You also look at the offense. He's got seven of 11 starters on offense that he's drafted.

One of them, you could talk about Lane Johnson. I forget what year he won. It might have been Chips pick. It might have been his pick. Remember, there's a lot of talk about who was making the picks at different times with the Philadelphia organization. But again, outrate his job of building the offensive line, just finding players. And one thing I will point out, it's not just the draft for him.

In two situations, I think that Roseman did a. a great job of taking advantage when players were disgruntled with their former team. One's obvious Sequan Barclay hit free agency, didn't resign with the Giants. The other was A.J. Brown. And he had tried to get a receiver already. He had tried to get JJ, or Saga, White Side in the second round, a few years before that. He famously took Jalen Rager over Justin Jefferson. That's something that will always be connected to Howie Roseman.

He famously did that. But you know what? We're not finding a receiver in the draft. A.J. Brown's not happy in Tennessee. It also, it didn't help the social media was kind of heating up at that point. And Rick's the video is. Of Rick Spielman laughing in his, in his, in his war room. Right. So, I mean, that was, it's just, you know, that's a tough one that he's going to have to live with.

But when you look at all the, man, like, yeah, exactly. Eric Takasso, I thought he was, I thought he was great. And like, again, his candor, like, if you're hitting on 75%, and obviously like a fifth round pick, you're not expecting to be a pro bowl. although you'd love it and occasionally you do. But like if you hit on 75, I was always told like 66% if you can get contributions.

75's a high bar. Two out of every three picks is like, it's a win. If you can get three starters from every draft and contributions from 67% of your draft picks is kind of the model across the league from people I've talked to. He talked about 75%

get contribution from 75%. So 25% don't make it. like don't make the team or whatever happens. But yeah, but how he's hit rate is phenomenal. Yeah, in the draft. And then you look at the moves. And again, the trade for AJ Brown. They signed Zach Bond to a one year $3.5 million contract this year.

The dudes, and he's an all pro. He's the only Eagle defensive player who is an all pro this year. They got a positions on them for $3.5 million. I mean, it's insane what they've done in terms of the draft, but then they've been very smart about free. They've been very smart. And they retain their players. Obviously, they retain their players.

They do a good job of keeping guys as well. So overall, that trend of building that defense stands out with them, though. And I think they're core values, right? And I think you touched on a lot of them there. The core value is we're going to build this team through the draft, right? Particularly on the defensive side. But they have 14 starters. And I know you just want like 9 of 11 and all that.

But as I'm just looking at their depth chart now going into the Super Bowl, 14 of the 22 starters are draft draft picks. Blanketship is an unside free agent, the safety. So he's a guy that got, you know, they didn't draft him, but they signed him right out of college. They drafted Devante Smith. They drafted Milaida. They drafted Landon Dickerson.

They drafted Cam Juergens. They drafted Lane Johnson. They drafted Dallas Goddard. They drafted Jalen Hertz. Okay. So it's not just the defense that they're hitting on, but there's been a huge emphasis on using high picks in the draft on the defensive side, especially that front with Nolan Smith and Jalen Carter and Jordan Davis.

I mean, the Georgia thing. Georgia kids, yeah. I mean, it's stupid the amount of Georgia kids that they've brought in there. It's been well documented as well. But all those are first round picks, you know, Milton Williams, third round pick. like I don't they they've drafted a lot of guys and they've used high picks on that defensive front and that seems to be a trend when you talk about the bills and you talk about the ravens and you talk about the chiefs and you know what I mean like that seems to be a trend so that's one thing

that I think plays into what we're talking about the other part is for whatever reason we said it with the new england patriots we said it with the Baltimore Ravens we can say it with the chiefs we can say it with the with the Eagles for some some reason the hardest position to the hardest positions to hit on early rounds offensive skill right and so yeah like but we've had this great run of receivers going early and there's you can handpick a couple guys who are awesome running backs right but there's a lot of misses that they come along with those okay and so for every devante smith there's a jaylin rager right yeah Okay. And what I've noticed with a lot of these teams is let's use those premium picks on premium

positions. And wide receivers become a premium position. So every once in a while, yeah, you've got to take your hack. But it's more important. We get our offensive line fixed for our quarterback. And it's definitely more important that we find pass rushers and difference makers on the defensive side. But a couple things that stand out. First of all, they have gone in free agency or trade. And they've handpicked. I said this before. We've talked. about it's going to be a theme throughout the process you you build up the foundation of your defense once you found that quarterback okay and then go handpick some guys no team has done it better than the eagles look at it like a j brown the trade i know jhan dotson hasn't been everything they

hope for but he's made some big plays yeah say Juan barclay maybe turns out to be one of the better trades we've seen in NFL history okay so you get that's where a agent signing when you get to a position where you got your cross you're going to be you got your quarterback, you're building your defense, go hand pluck some guys. And that's where you can use your free agency money. The other part is the Bill Walsh thing. Bill Walsh was always draft a quarterback every other year. Yeah. Bill Parcells kind of was from that same thing. Don't care if it's a seventh rounder, don't care if it's a second rounder, just keep drafting you. Because at worst case, they've become a really good backup for you for a few years and then you get trade value, right?

And the Eagles have been the model of that. I go back to Nick Foles in 2020. right? Matt Barkley in 2013. Carson once in 2016. Thorson in 2019. Hurts in 2020. Tanner and McKee, two years later. I know it wasn't a high draft pick, but it was a draft pick, right? Tanner McKee comes in six-round draft pick from Stanford. They needed him during this playoff run. So those are some of the trends that I saw. Chiefs on the other side. And again, I don't want to wear this whole thing out, because, because it's very similar to what we just went through. But they drafted Mahomes. Brett Veach, his role is kind of evolved, right?

But Brett Veach famously, and I know straight from the horse's mouth, I've literally sat in a room with Andy Reid and Brett Veach. Well, Andy Reid gushed over Brett Veach and also told the story of how annoying he was, like two years earlier when he wasn't draft eligible, coming into his office, and wearing his ass out with clips on Patrick Mahomes. And then a year before he was eligible doing the same thing. And then when he was eligible, and it drove Andy Reed crazy until it was time to draft. And Andy agreed with him and said, let's go trade up and get our guy.

And that's what they did in 2017. They also got Kareem Hunt in that draft, right? But from that point on in 2017, as Brett Veach's role advanced in terms of his title, if you will, all six players that they drafted in 2018 were defensive players. 2019 they drafted McColl Harmon because they wanted another weapon, another speedster, another versatile guy as they were trying to evolve this creative offense, right, with Mahomes. And that was after his first year as a starter, I believe in 2018.

So now 2019, let's get him another chess piece. But then after that, the next three players they drafted were defensive players. 2020, Edwards-Alaire. Again, missing on offensive skill guys. And I know Edwards-Zalier has done some stuff, but he's not been working. the first round pick then four of the next five picks after edwards allaire were defensive players 2021 two of the first three picks defense including nick bolton 22 five of their first six picks defense and this defense is already bordering on elite well guess what it it went up another

level in the in the in terms of like the top tier defenses in the nfl 23 still elite winning Super Bowl, still elite, right? And five of seven players that they drafted were defensive picks. And this year they shifted back to offensive or 2024, I should say this last year's draft. But you look at some of their best picks like McDuffie, right? Yeah. Phenomenal pick, difference maker. Critically important, 2022, the first round pick.

Bolton, as I mentioned before, going back to that. that 2021 draft, late in the first round that was. Creed, offensive lineman, was another guy who was a great pick. Again, sticking in the trenches. Karloftus, Karloftus has been a huge addition. He was the other 22 first round pick. So it's similar. They're not identical.

And let's just be honest, there have been more hits and more consistency in the draft with Howie Roseman than there has been with, with the Kansas City Chiefs in that organization. But when they've hit, my goodness, they've hit. The Kansas City Chiefs have hit. And also they've missed on high picks on the offensive side, not total bus, but guys that just don't match up with that. So I don't know.

That's kind of my takeaway. And I wanted to spin it forward. And I'm kind of throwing us on the spot. And we'll get into this more. But I just want to throw up that draft order. Okay. And I look at this year's draft class, match. And I see, we talked about the corners, but I see as we talked about,

Abdul Carter, Mikel Williams, and Jalen Walker, both from Georgia, Carter, obviously, Penn State. Shamar Stewart, Texas A&M. I've got them all in my top 10. Mike Green, sensational at the senior bowl. He's going to be a first-round pick. I've got him at 20 overall. James Pierce, Jr., if you really go back and study his tape, people are down on him. His pressure rate was, I think, like, maybe one or two in the country.

in terms of past rush pressures, wasn't on the field as much. He's a really good edge rusher. Nick Scorton, your guy from A&M, another really good edge rusher. Both the guys from Ohio State, Captain Jack Sawyer, JTT. Then you got Landon, Landon Jackson from Arkansas, Azaruku from Donovan Azaruku from Boston College. There's a lot of depth. So with that in mind, it's crazy.

If we throw up some of the, if we throw up the draft picks from this year real quickly, when we look at contending teams, I think Cincinnati is one of them. I think that, like, I think there's got to be this formula that you follow. And if you follow it and you continue to build up your defense,

you're going to see with this draft order that there's opportunity to plug in guys. And so, yeah, Abdul Carter's going to be gone. Mikel Williams going to be gone. Jalen Walker's going to be gone. Smar Stewart might be gone. all in the top 15. But knowing some of those names with James Pierce, Mike Green, Nick Scorton,

who are some of the teams, when you look at the draft order that stand out that could follow in this, they could continue to develop their defense? I mean, Cincinnati, I think, I mean, that's the first one that you mentioned that jumps out to me. I think they could get a corner there

that would really help them out. Trey Henderson is still an elite pass rusher for them, but he's a guy that's aging a little bit. So if you were to bring in a guy, listen, if James Pierce makes it a 17, I will be stunned. But it looks like that's a real possibility. Yeah, I am. I don't know. I don't know what the disconnect is for some people, I think, when you look at him.

And I think that when we come out of Indy, if he works out in Indy, again, I'm not sure who's doing what yet. And we'll see who does what, really. But when he comes out of India, I think he's going to have a lot of buzz. that's a dude is a unique tool uh unique tools and could be a much more productive pro than he is a college player i so i look at this draft i look at this draft order right yeah bengel bangles at 17 if you look at some of their top needs wide receiver offensive tackle tight end right before you get into the defensive side seahawks offensive line is a quarterback maybe in this year's draft spinning forward and before you get to the defensive side wide receiver guard

you know, maybe offensive tackle Tampa Bay Buccaneers sitting at 19. 20, Denver Broncos, tight end, wide receiver, top two needs. Pittsburgh Steelers is going to be quarterback. I promise you that they absolutely need a cornerback, and that could be where they go in the first round. You get down to the chargers at 22, Green Bay Packers at 23, Vikings at 24 before you get to teams that on paper right now

have needs on the defensive side. The commanders, man. The commanders, you know, we'll see what happens at free agency, but the commanders could use an edge, man. But they need, but my point, yes. So the commanders at 29, the lions at 28, and I'm working on reverse order,

and the Vikings, the Vikings at 24, the packages of 23, the charges of 22, all are teams that we kind of expect to be on the defensive side. And maybe the Steelers with the cornerback position on at 21 but i like i'm intrigued by the tampa bays the denvers the seahawks the the the bengals of the world bengals of 17 seahawks 18 buccaneers 19 den bruncoes 20 when you start talking about these edge rushers and then you start talking talking about the interior defensive line graham no graham mason graham I'm sorry.

And then Walter Nolan, Kenneth Grant, Derek Harmon from Oregon, T.J. Sanders, South Carolina, Tileak Williams, Ohio State. It'll be interesting to see, are they following kind of this blueprint? Because a lot of those teams have their quarterback. Arizona's got their quarterback. The Bengals have their quarterback. Seattle, if they don't go quarterback, looking towards the future, are they going to follow this? The Buccaneers have their quarterback.

the Broncos have their quarterback. Yeah, the Bengals are the most exciting one there. Because you can talk about having your quarterback, but Joe Burrow, I think, is different than those other guys. No question. They're a team that picks in the middle there and is not that far away, in my opinion. If they can get a dude there, and again, you look at the depth of this class, there's reason to be optimistic.

That's the team that really has piqued my interest in terms of what we're talking about. good? I feel better. I got some things off my chest. All right, good. Mench is better. But this is a probably, I mean, who, let's, let's throw it to a guy who actually does this and handles these decisions. There's going to be one of those teams that we talked about in the bottom half of the first round that has its quarterback that has seen these organizations put together the, the, the, the blueprint, if you will. They have some needs on the offensive side of the ball, but do you continue to load up on defensive front guys. And also a man in Nick Casario, the general manager of the Houston Texans, that has been

around one of the most, if not the most brilliant minds in the NFL for 20 years. He learned from Bill Belichick as a grad assistant, if you will, worked as he worked as a scout. He worked as an assistant coach on the offensive side with the wide receiver. He worked in just about every element and every facet. asset that you can work in in an NFL organization and it helped shaped him. And Nick Casario will talk about that experience with Bill Belichick. He'll talk about technology and how it's helped in the advancement of their scouting process.

He'll talk about how he's built this Houston Texans organization. And he'll talk about C.J. Strow and what went into that process, how they wound up landing on him and what made him special in their opinion. And so now I'm going to throw it in our new. the decision-maker series, the second general manager interview that we're going to provide second of many to come.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. We're here with Texans general manager, Nick Casario. Nick, we appreciate you taking the time. Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't want to sit here and start picking apart your roster and who's

do you like at the senior bowl and all this? I just kind of want to sit back and have a real conversation with you. And I think I know our audience is curious like the day to day as a general manager, the scouting process and all that. So let's start with quarterback because that's where everyone wants to start. And your process with C.J. Strout and in that draft class a couple years ago. Where does it start? At what point did you think he might be our guy? And was there a series of actions? Was it meetings you had? Was it a certain time when you were like, like the light went off and you're like, hey, like this is our guy? Sure. It's a lot there. Probably from start to finish, it's a two to three year process because what we try to do is there's going to be a cohort

of junior or underclassman that potentially could be in a draft, whatever year that is. So as soon as they become retro sophomores, juniors, once they've been in school for three years. Then that third year, that next year, there's an opportunity for them to be eligible. So we do pretty extensive spring scouting where we try to put together 150 to 200 prospects go through it. Scouts go through it, kind of have an initial evaluation. So, and you're really focusing on the juniors, but you're also cognizant of some of the underclassmen as well. Yep.

So as you go through the spring, May, June, do a little bit of work. And then that fall season, you go through. Scouts going to school. You're typically going to have two or three different people go through the school area scout over the top College director, whether the GM or personnel director goes through there or not, but you're going to probably have five, six game exposures where you see the player live, and then they're also going to be accumulating information and background information on the players. So that's through the fall. And then really this time of year, I would say for underclassmen, it's going to start the combine. That's your first opportunity, first sort of touch point. So you can interview them, you can watch them work out. we can talk about the workouts.

I think everybody's got different opinions about the value of the workouts. But between the Combine and then you kind of transition to the pro day, I'd say the campus visit, either you go to that player or you bring them in house with your coaches and on your campus. That's another opportunity for you. So I would say we did specific to CJ, not just back him, but other quarterbacks and other players. We've done that with a lot of players. But CJ was in our building, talked to him with the Combine, had him in a building, and then just kind of kept going through the process.

And what we're trying to do is accumulate as much information as possible, create a profile on a picture of the player and say, all right, in the end, here's what we're getting when this player walks in and we're comfortable or not comfortable. And I'd say by the end of kind of March, beginning April, I mean, I think we had a pretty good idea about, I mean, and coaches get involved typically a little bit later in that process, right? So you want to make sure all the people involved from Domeco

to the offensive coordinator to the quarterback coach, they have their opportunity. And at some point, we all have to get together and say, all right, what do we see, how do we feel? And then if we have to make a decision, be prepared to make a decision with all the information available. So you found your guy. And obviously, he has an unbelievable rookie season this year. Every quarterback has some challenges, you know, some bumps and bruises. The experience helps in terms of his growth.

But you know you have your guy, right? And there's a lot of teams out there that would love to be in your position. that's the positive. The negative as I just sit back from the outside looking in is, oh shit, we're in a division with, I mean, just the conference,

I should say, just a conference with Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, like the list keeps going on. Lamar Jackson. So there's such a thin margin of error and trying to build this roster.

I guess my first question with that as the backdrop is, how do you best support your quarterback when you know you've got him? Yeah, it's another great question. And I would say you just reeled off the quarterbacks that are in the AFC specifically. And it's the best. This is what makes our league is competitive, more competitive than any league that's out there because the margins are small. And we only play it once a week. But as far as how we try to approach it, it's about the team composition and team structure,

not necessarily geared toward one specific player. you want to make sure that you have enough assets and you have enough, I would say, support around the player and a quarterback, but you've got to have a decent group of skill players, you've got to have a decent offensive line, there's a scheme element, how do you play on defense, the kicking game factors in. So we try to take a holistic approach, kind of top to bottom, let's build as good of a team as possible because certain weeks the offense is going to have to carry us, other weeks the defense is going to have to carry us. We're going to make a playing a kicking game. And in any end, it's about how do you execute in most critical situations when you watch, I mean, we'd go back and watch the championship game. this weekend, it was all there right in front of you. Yeah. So, I mean, other than Patrick, every quarterback is going to go through some ups and downs to get to a point where you get to the championship game. And then if you're fortunate enough to win that game, then you have an opportunity to play in a Super Bowl.

Yeah. So you look at any industry, right? And you can find talent, the good companies, no matter what field they're in, find talented people, they can find productive people, they can find experience people. But I think what sets the great ones apart is finding the right people. And how do you go through that process? How do you guys, how does that process look for you? It's not easy.

You have to be very disciplined and you have to be very committed to if you're saying, these are the things that we're going to prioritize our importance, not so much of physical, but off the field in terms of their competitiveness, in terms of their mental and physical toughness, in terms of their mental aptitude, in terms of the type of person they are, and are they a good teammate, if those are the things that are important,

you have to prioritize those as a part of your process. if you stray from that just to take a player or somebody that maybe is more talented but doesn't fit your culture, then you're taking some risk. So that's where I think Damiko and I are aligned from the standpoint of this is what we want. We're going to prioritize it. And I would say you take a vast number of players and we'll shrink them down into here are the players that we feel fit that profile for the Houston Texans. And that might mean you're going to pass on a player. But if you're staying true and committed and discipline to really what you're trying to build,

then if you believe in that, then you go ahead and move forward with it. Over the course of your career, is there maybe one player, maybe two players that, like, stood out to you during that process of that they really set themselves apart, maybe in the interviews, the way that other people talked about them? It's hard to do. But I would just say input from other players at their particular school always is interesting information. Because if you start to see a pattern of behavior, so if you talk to five different players at one school and they might say, well, this specific, they keep coming. coming back to you have to pick one player or who's a player you want to build a team with, and they keep coming back to this particular player, then part of our job is to say, oh, wait a minute, like, let's just go back and make sure, verify our information.

Because obviously, if everybody's saying this, like, this is a player that you want to have on your team. So I might have been fortunate to be around a lot of good players and a lot of good teams in my time in New England. And I would say a number of players, I mean, that are on our team currently. I think, you know, Jalen Pitcher was a player that everybody felt that way about him coming out. And when you look at kind of what he had to endure at Baylor, the program wasn't very good. Right. I mean, they were basically starting at ground zero. And everybody that you spoke with said he was a big reason why, him and Bernard, which, you know, when you watch those two players play in Buffalo,

you watch those two players that have a significant impact on their team. So I would say that's probably an example most recently of my time in Houston as we were just getting started because Jalen was a player that we took. I want to say that was the second year that I was there, then in the first or second round pick in the first year. So we were looking at a different pool of players. But then Petrie was a player. And I'd say everything that Baylor had talked about and his impact on the program, he's had as big of an impact, if not more, in our program as we're starting to piece this together.

Specifically looking at your roster now, but you've got free agency coming up. You have to do a self-evaluation process. We were talking about that a little bit before, figuring out, all right, here's our areas of strikes. These are the players that we believe in that we need to, we're going to have to spend to bring back. Here's some spots we may.

have to unfortunately, you know, move on from. What are the priorities for the Texans this year in the offseason with free agency and the draft, the areas where you're looking to say, all right, if we're going to take that next step, from a personnel standpoint, we've got to improve in what areas? Yeah, certain areas, we have more players under contract than we do others. I mean, offensively, most of our skill players are under contract. Most of our offensive linemen are under contracts, you know, so I'd say that's a position or as a group, we're just going to try to find good football players and add into the team. It's no different on defense.

We just have a few more players on defense whose contracts are set to expire here in March or in a few weeks, however many weeks that is. So there'll be some players that we're going to want to bring back. They might choose to go elsewhere. So that's where the free agent process, we're starting to go through. I know we're here at the Senior Bowl, but our pro scouting staff is going through free agent meetings and starting to go through their process of identifying players who fits, who do we have a realistic opportunity to get?

and then you have to factor in the cost. So philosophically, good football players, regardless of position, and then we'll figure out how they best fit. So we don't take the approach. Well, we need to have this. Let's go find that. Well, let's understand a market. Let's understand multiple positions.

Make sure we know the players. And then figure out if there's an opportunity to add that player to the team, doesn't make sense or not. I've never worked for Bill Belichick, right? But I've got a handful of friends that have. And it is my understanding. ending, one of the most rewarding experiences from a football standpoint that you could have, but also challenging. What was the hardest lesson you ever learned from Bill, maybe a story or something?

When you look back at your time with Bill, is there one story that stands out or one thing you learned that really jumps out to you? Yeah, I was fortunate to be around him for 20 years. And he and I worked together on a number of different levels, and I kind of was able to get exposure to a number of different facets of the football operation. The thing is that is that he and I was able to get exposure to a number of different facets of the football operation. The thing that I really took from him was his constant ability to adjust and adapt. And I would say either move on from players, even if it was maybe not the most popular thing to do. But do make the decisions that are always in the best interests of the team. And always kind of you're focused on the present, but think ahead a little bit.

And to just be able to adjust and adapt, whether it's schematically, whether it's what you're looking for in personnel. I'd say that was probably, I mean, I've learned a thousand things from him. But his ability to kind of adjust and adapt kind of on a fly was something that not too many people can do. And as we kind of shifted defensively, there's kind of like the right around 2008, 9, 10, we kind of shifted a little bit. You know, when we started playing a little more nickel defense before the rest of the league and kind of using Chung and this kind of hybrid safety lineback role. So you're playing nickel defense from from your base calls, but playing nickel out of it. So it kind of looks the same to the offense, but it's just a little subtle difference. So I think his ability to kind of be willing to change and adjust and adapt,

and we did that offensively a number of times as well. So how we played one year, we were predominantly at 11 personnel team in 07. And then when we had the two tight ends, we became a little bit more of a 12 personnel team. And then you're playing a cat and mouse game. Is it base defense, is nickel defense? How do you? So the ability to kind of like bob and weave and adjust and adapt, And I would just echo those sentiments, some of the most rewarding time,

very challenging and very taxing mentally. But he always allowed you to do your job and provide him information and provide your perspective. And he was a phenomenal listener. So I think the ability to adjust and adapt and then listen and utilize all the resources in your building, I think is something that we've tried to apply. I've tried to apply a little bit here in Houston. Just listening to that story, it kind of strikes me how. how integrated the personnel part was with the coaching staff.

And obviously, Bill was a little bit unique in his role in the organization, kind of in control of all of that. But with D'Amico Ryans and the coaching staff and the involvement, we talked to a bunch of different GMs and we talked to different coaches and scouts. And it seems to be different and a lot of different teams in terms of the involvement and all of that. How much of the communication goes on, obviously this time of year, the coaching kind of comes to a halt.

they get involved in the scouting process, but how much do you guys work together? And then at the end of the day, obviously, you have to make decisions, but how important is that for you guys compared to maybe some other places? Significantly, I think we have a very good synergy. We communicate a lot, and I think we're very respectful of one another. He has a, Demico's an incredible human beings, a phenomenal coach, but he's an incredible human being. And I think he has a unique perspective, and I've always viewed my role, even when I was working with Coach Belichick, it was a supporting. role. So my job is to help support the head coach. And because of my background, that synergy between coaching and scouting and personnel kind of was able to lend a little different perspective. So we want the

input of the coaches. They're intimately involved. What we try to do is pair it down and say, here, focus on this cohort of players. Go ahead and go through your evaluations. Now we meet as a staff and they give their input and perspective. Here's the role. Here's how we see the player. And then we take that information. And again, we're trying to make a decision that collectively is in the best interest of our team, not it's D'Amico's pick, it's Nick's pick, it's the Houston Texans pick, and we all have to have conviction and belief. And there's going to be times we disagree. And if we disagree, maybe we shift our attitude and efforts to another player, and that's okay. In the end, whatever decision we make, we're making it in unison, and then we're moving forward,

and then we're going to figure out a way to make it work. The advancement of technology is always kind of this debated aspect, like, you know, keep them out of the football they don't know football and then but i'll just ask a question because i have my own thoughts on it but for you the advancement of technology with scouting and the evaluation process and just the efficiency of work how important has that been what what have you found to be more most helpful for you yeah the advances in the video technology have probably been more pronounced than anything i mean when i started i was beta tape right you were time coding yep and you were trying to do five or six players so you'd have to go through the whole game,

you have a sheet of paper in your time code and then you're building a highlight tape. Well, now, in most teams database, you can go to a specific player if you want to just watch all his catches. You're able to click and populate those. So from a time perspective, from efficiency of available information, that's where technology has been advantageous. From a technology relative to data in other analytics, whatever you want to call it, it's really more a tool and it's information and then you just have to be able to synthesize it and say

what's the application what is this information telling us and then how do we apply it so the big thing i would say from my perspective specifically is the video component and the technology to be able to get to something quickly if you want to watch all his pressures right you're able to pull up all those players 60 pressures and watch them you can say or who's it against who's the player so it just makes a lot quicker as opposed to got to go through the game all right let's figure out when the pressures took place. Not that you're just looking for a highlight tape. So I would say just the efficiency and availability and you can do it, not necessarily have to be chain of your desk to do it. Right. If you have an office set up at home, you can flip your computer out like we're doing here

with this podcast and do the same amount of work. So, and I think we all have to be sensitive to there's a balance. Like a lot of us have families, a lot of us have children. We're focused on our work and we care a lot about our work. But we found there's alternative ways to get your work done. So I would say that's only continued to grow, but you want to be careful of not just doing something just to do it. Right. I'm guessing there's a handful of people, hopefully a lot more than a handful, that aspire to be a scout one day or general manager or just have a love for football and are curious. If you could go back and think about yourself for a minute as a young Nick, right, and just getting into scouting, what's the one thing you would tell him now with all the knowledge and experience that you have? Yeah, and when I got, I had no idea what scouting was when I started in the NFL.

I mean, I was coaching in college. I was a graduate assistant. I thought, I'm going to coach. Like, that was going to be the career path. And then the opportunity came up in New England's a scouting assistant. It was like, what's a scouting assistant? So I think it's just embrace the moment, try to work as hard as you possibly can, and be very observant and curious and don't be afraid to ask questions.

And don't get so bogged down with something and think, well, it's the end of the world. if you evaluated the player maybe differently than somebody else. Because sometimes you try to shoehorn something into what you think people want to hear. Yes. I went through that and that was probably one of the things I had to learn is, you know what? Believe in what you're seeing. Believe in yourself. Have some conviction presented in a respectful way.

And if somebody disagrees with you or they see it differently, that's okay. Then you can go back and learn what I miss. Like me a good thing too, right? Exactly. So that's part of growth. Sometimes growth is in those moments where it's pretty difficult. So, and I would say work is work, but be smart about your work. I mean, I have some stories that I won't share here, but where I injured myself because

I just didn't get enough sleep. Yeah. You know, you're walking around. So that's not worth it. So in the end, it's not worth it. So work smart, have conviction, be respectful, listen, maintain your curiosity, and just try to learn as much as you can. Yeah, well, you were in New England.

You did bounce. You were a scouting assistant to scout, and then you coached again. So you were still willing to go back to do that. And obviously, you know, it sounds like you hit on it a little bit. Could you talk about doing that, the coaching and how that makes you relate to not only just D'Amico, but maybe some of the assistant coaches who have feelings about certain players of what they might want to look for and what they do? Yeah, it's just have a unique perspective. So start a scouting assistant.

Then did quality control work over specifically, I was the offensive quality control coach for Coach Weiss and there. Then I flipped to college. Right. I don't know, seven. I went back downstairs. And, you know, I was coaching arguably some of the best receivers in the league. One's in the Hall of Fame. I think I'm pretty sure Randy's in the Hall of Fame. But anyway, at Randy, we had West, we had Dante Stallworth, we had Jabart Gaffney,

Troy Brown was coming back, Kelly Washington. So here I am, a 20-something or however old I was at the time, I'm not going to really tell these guys something that they don't really know. So I just tried to say, provide them information that's useful because I think the one thing that you do find is that players have an appetite for learning and they want to be coached. So if you can provide them something that can help them on Sunday, then they're going to listen.

So I think now being kind of back on the other side of it, it's just, all right, are the coaches doing that? Are they providing the players with the information to the players? Are they able to absorb that information? So you're able to handle it? So how much can they handle mentally?

That's part of our scouting, their mental capacity. Can they, well, you know what, this guy has a little bit trouble or whatever it is. So there's a constant overlay in back and forth. and I try to just maintain my space and distance. And if someone asked me a question about something schematically or something, I can provide my perspective on it.

But I think the ability to kind of go back and forth is kind of, it gives you a big picture perspective because in the end, it's all interconnected. So we're not just scouting players and they're not just coaching players. You're trying to build a football team and you want to make sure they are identifying the right traits and characteristics that can went to being a winning football player. So do you ask members of your own staff to have that kind of versatility and that openness, you expose them to different opportunities? If they're interested, you typically won't see a lot of scouts kind of going to coaching.

It's unique. You might see some coaches going to scouting. I would say not all coaches can scout, not all scouts can coach. Some can do both. I think really more in personnel, you might have more crossover, college to pro, pro to college. And get them cross-trained so that when you're evaluating college players, if you don't understand what's playing in the league, sometimes there's misconception about what's actually playing on Sundays.

So you kind of have a jaded view because you're focused solely on college. It's like, well, this guy's this, but wait a minute, do you have a true understanding of what's playing in the league? So we try to do is cross-trained them a little bit in some of those areas. So they have a good perspective of what's actually playing in the league so that can help them when they're on a road in the fall. Last one for me. There's only 32 of you in the world, right? And I think we, from the outside, looking in, can understand that massive challenges and time constraints and balancing and juggling all these things. But like from a day to day, obviously the winning is the best part.

From a day to day perspective, when you just kind of sit back and think like, this is the best part of my day. When you get to do this for five minutes, 20 minutes an hour, what is your favorite part of the job still? I'm a very process-oriented person. So during the course of the week, certain checkpoints as you're going through, and I try to each week evaluate the upcoming opponent so that at the end of the season, we're ready for free agency. So it's not like, well, I have a cutting, a coding system where I'm able to go and say, okay, this guy's a unrestricted free agent. He's a restricted free agent at the end of the year. Okay, a lot of the work has been done. So to be able to kind of stay on track and stay on schedule and just keep pressing forward and then being able to kind of turn the page.

regardless of what happens on Sunday win or lose like you have to do that in this league it's not an easy thing to do yeah sometimes we kind of get caught up in winning sometimes we get too low when we're losing but you try to have to I try to maintain some level of civility and consistency and level-headedness so I can just focus on the work that's in front of me because in the end it's all about the work so we can talk about a lot of different things but it's that's so the joy is found in the work for me um I enjoy work I try to work out five or six times a week yeah it's kind of my release I like to read during the season just to kind of get my mind away from football. So I think all of us have to have some outlets that kind of can keep the mind fresh so that when we're working, that we're rejuvenated and we're focused. Interesting. We appreciate your time, man. No, I appreciate it. Enjoy the conversation. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Yeah, you bet. Must be 21 plus and present in select

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