The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 001

Episode Date: January 20, 2015

From the Super 8 motel in Ketchikan, Alaska, Steven Rinella talks with guests Joe Rogan, Bryan Callen, Dan Doty, and Janis Putelis about the charms of hard hunts, "Pamela Anderson" deer, Bergmann���s Rule (why mammals get really big up North), wolves and wolf management, and public perceptions of American bear hunts and African safaris. On this episode... -Podcasting -Hard Hunts -"Pamela Anderson" deer -Bergmann's Rule -Wolves and wolf management -Nick Nolte -Perceptions on American bear hunts and African safaris RELATED LINKS/NOTES MeatEater.VHX.tv to download episodes of MeatEater SOG Knives VIDEO: Bryan Callen Can't Take the Cold on MeatEater Joe Rogan Joe Rogan Experience Podcast www.joerogan.net Bryan Callen Fighter and the Kid podcast www.bryancallen.com ++++++++++++++ If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes here. Available on: -iTunes -Stitcher -YouTube -Soundcloud Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meat. This is the Meat Eater Podcast. We're recording out of Ketchikan, Alaska, along the famed Inside Passage. We're actually specifically recording in what I consider to be my favorite hotel in the

united states of america the super eight of catch can alaska in which dan dodie who's here we'll get to him in a minute it's actually the worst hotel ever yeah i had no idea i've been staying here for a decade and then dan dodie and staying here with dan dodie different rooms for a decade he just revealed to me that it is his least favorite hotel in the whole place this however you feel about the Super 8 Ketchikan is a rough rough town if you like

feeling like you if you like going out and then coming home and feeling like you almost just got your ass kicked Ketchikan is a good place to go I think because the town is walled in like if you back up you're in the mountains if you go forward you're in the ocean the road here doesn't connect any highway system and people feel like real uh i think they get to feel a little cooped up in ketchikan

and they all are like ambush hunters waiting for something new to roll into town to pounce on him it goes fast like um one of the guys who work with mo one time got you know a woman came up to him to criticize him about how much his rain jacket cost you know and i was like she was like nagging him it was like her way of picking him up would be to go ridicule him but usually you go to the bar and um a guy will come up like he wants to hang out but in fact he wants to beat you up um brought to you today by sog knives and tool the company so i gotta start this this guy, the designer, still the designer now, this guy Spencer Frazier, used to build these replica knives of the knives used by the special operations group in Vietnam, like their combat knife. And he started doing that and slowly built this company out until he has this huge array of tactical knives and tools that are super popular with military and law enforcement porcelain personnel and now they've got like a great line of hunting knives and tools out

I mean they got everything from hatchets to machetes Brian Callen who's here how do you say that in Spanish pronounced machete I have a souvenir meat eater hunting knife yep you don't have one that's a dog there's only there's only two or three of those in existence i have a sog i was given on the first yeah yeah i have one of those too i have one of those too but i have one with the meat eater logo you don't have one of those you know i know how because he gave it to me you got really sad oh you were there okay obviously you've been in my knife chest that's interesting because i don't they don't make i don't remember don't remember you ever being in my knife chest.

I don't make them. Obviously, Joe Rogan broke into my house. If I was going to do something rude to you, I should have saved it for Ketchikan. Yeah, well. I would have done something rude to you in a bar in Ketchikan. You don't know whether I went to the offices and the head brass at Meat Eater and they made one special. You don't know that for sure.

Where's that office? We're all sitting in there. Excuse me? What's the name of the production company? The name of the production company? Yeah, the name of the production company. at meat eater and they made one special. You don't know that for sure. Where's that office? We're all sitting in this room. What's the name of the production company? The name of the production company? Yeah. The name of the production company. Is this a court of law now?

I have to tell you all the details. What would be the name of the place that you would go to if you're going to get that special name? Machetes, fixed blades, folding knives. And in my opinion, probably the, not probably, the best and most versatile line of multi-tools out there um definitely the best player ever mounted on a multi-tool there's a lot of other great innovations they put on these things too many for me to really get into but just a one that's interesting is on a sock multi-tool you can actually take like just regular household tools and disassemble the

thing you know using a torx bit or an Allen bit. You can pull it out and then customize the blade configurations to match up with what you want it for. I made mine. I call mine the Super Big Game Deluxe. I haven't patented that yet. This is awesome. Also brought to you by the Meteor TV show. Catch us on Sportsman Channel.

When we're running new episodes, we're on Thursdays, 8 p.m. Eastern, but we're all over the network at other times as well. And whenever you want, you can download or stream episodes of Meat Eater at meateater.vhx.tv. Go on there. Use the code one word, meateater meat eater podcast and get five bucks off any volume it's a good deal it is now our special guest here today we have the the beautiful and lovely uh brian the kid calen and

the wonderful jo Rogan. If Joe Rogan did not exist, you would not be listening to this podcast right now because Joe Rogan was my inspiration. He's a pioneer. He's a pioneer in podcasting. Were you doing podcasting before they called it podcasting? No. I think they started calling it podcasting when the iPod was invented.

Yeah, almost a decade ago. I believe the term was invented by Adam Curry, the guy who was the MTV VJ, who has a show now called No Agenda that he does. I'm pretty sure he invented the term podcasting. He might have invented podcasting itself. Is he the guy that's now, is there like a thing? I remember you were involved like someone was trying to patent lawsuit yeah did that ever get resolved favorably it did

yes it did it's called they're patent trolls they essentially wanted to get a patent i mean this is the paraphrased version of it that um they they had a patent on things put online in a serialized form, which is so ambiguous and vague. But they were patent trolls. They had done this before. They'd sued Apple for a lot of money. I think they won several million dollars from Apple. But a company like Apple just says,

fuck it, I'll just give you the money. Just shut your hole. It's worth more to give them $7 million than it is to get tim cook and all these guys to go to court somewhere but they must have i mean i don't want to get into this in too great detail i was i mean it's interesting to us but they must have had some kind of argument because i doubt apple just hands out money to anyone who comes up like if i came up and said hey man my ipod kind of burnt my hand they're not going to give me seven million dollars i don't know what

they had what they had with apple i don't know what they had with Apple. I don't know what the lawsuit was based on. But the lawsuit that they were suing Adam Carolla and several other podcasters was unbelievably ridiculous. And the judges were, you know, they go through some, before they have the actual trial, they go through some sort of a meeting where they sit down with legal representatives.

They explain their case and you know the the judges reviewed it so there's nothing here oh is that right and yeah and they hit still pay and then they still still done it they still well this I don't know about Apple this is with Adam Carolla and they still wanted to press for their what they they do essentially is they force people to spend exorbitant amounts of money in legal fees. Adam Carolla spent more than a half a million dollars fighting this. And there was almost no case. But that's the idea. It's like, do you want to spend this? Or do you want to just pay us 20

bucks a month? And then everybody has to pay 20 bucks a month. So every part, you know, whatever the number is, they choose. So that's how they do it. But they, in part of the agreement that they signed when they abandoned the case, they agreed to settle with Adam Carolla and they agreed to not go after any other podcast.

Specifically, my podcast was listed. There's like a bunch that they listed they will not pursue legal action. So...

Really? Yeah, but I would have had to do the same thing. I would have had to spend fuck loads of money. So I helped Adam Carolla raise some money for it. That's what I remember seeing that. Yeah. But I would have had to do the same thing. I would have had to spend fuck loads of money. So I helped Adam Crowell raise some money for it. That's what I remember seeing that.

Yeah. The whole thing's ridiculous. Also joined by the Latvian lover. Do, do, do, do. Giannis. You guys know that Giannis used to go by Giannis Longtong Putellis? Really? From when he worked at a.

Longtong? Do you wish you hadn't told me that story? Dong. Oh, Longtong. Because he worked at a... Long Tongue? You wish you had told me that story. Dong. Oh, Long Dong. Because he worked at a... He's got a piece on him. What'd you work at? Long Tongue?

Italian restaurant, right? Yeah, Toscanini. Toscanini. In Beaver Creek, Colorado. And then got fired from that and had a long illustrious career as an elk guide before getting swept up into show business got good length of bone and has a latvian power ring what does that mean look at his power ring what is it his brother wears one too if they touch him it sparks it's a

yeah just to prove just say if you say we're going across the straight to hunt black tail deer on that island over there in Latvian not fluent black tail deer is a tough one we don't have in the lab you just said black tail deer

and joined by that was fake that was a fake language the catch I could do that super 8 hatin Dan Doty who's been who's also been on Dan's got that? Who's been on.

Who's also been on Joe's podcast. Dan's been negative about it. Dan's been like, this place is terrible. And by the way, where we're going, it's going to be really cold and wet and miserable. This whole thing sucks. Well, judging by that so far. I think Dan's sleepy, man. This is fine.

Yeah, a little sleepy. This is fine. I mean, if this is terrible, then i put it on a scale and compelled this to the the the mountain that we're going to this yeah i'm aware i've been a little negative about this and i'm i don't want to be that way but there's something there is something first class you're sitting up there with all the kings and queens and royalty and we're back there with the peasants and coach you're a natural i understand i understand where you're coming from now there's something hard there is something about this place that

just has been here a bunch we've been here a bunch it's been four years now we've been coming yeah he's been kind of more like more than subtly trying to put the uh put the end to this trip no no no this area just like he's like we kind of i think dan said we've got something along the lines that we filmed the piss out of that place is it because it's your spot you have your cabin up here not the salsa i just love it i love it because i honestly i feel like it feels really nice weather i wouldn't like as much as i like it yeah you're a weirdo like that i love it it not that i enjoy bad weather i just love it because there's something about um there's just i there's something about just like a place that just is probably just gonna kick your ass you like struggle you know

and it was highlighted in that recent elk episode that i watched there's this fucking giant beautiful am i allowed to swear on your podcast is that okay we'll make an exception are you gonna beep will you beep it or just no this isn't like this isn't like like a tube like a tv no um you you had this beautiful elk in your sights and you decided not to shoot it because you wanted to see what else was out there and you felt like it came too easy yeah shoot i would have shot that fucking thing in a heartbeat. I know. I'm the exact opposite of you. I had just shot an elk.

What I didn't get into is I had just shot an elk. Not there. I had just shot an elk. Whatever. I would have fucking ended that thing right there. Ladies and gentlemen, this show is four minutes long. I'm the exact opposite. I never think this is too easy.

When things come along too easy, I go, fucking great. Let's wrap this up. Get out of here. I love it when things come easy. Me too. I don't ever feel like I have to work extra hard for shit. I hope I nail two deers in the first five minutes tomorrow. I hope they line up.

I hope both my tags line up where they're both eating grass at the same time and I get one headshot and take both of them out. Right from the tent. Just boom. Get up in the morning. Let's go crabbing. Boom. Let's eat shrimp. Let's eat some shrimp and crab. I know what you're saying because I

do. I want it to be. I never go somewhere thinking like, oh, I want it to be bad. I don't go hunting like, I hope it's really hard want it to be. I never go somewhere thinking, oh, I want it to be bad. I don't go hunting. I hope it's really hard and it's bad. I always hope it's good and there's tons of animals everywhere. But you like to earn it. After the fact.

You're a bit of a masochist. You are. Or a masochist. Well, I think what you are is someone who appreciates hard work and effort. And you also appreciate going to places that are difficult to hunt. You like going to high mountain areas that are difficult to hike. There's a lot that you have an ethic. And I think that ethic, it's a good thing. It's a good thing that you have this.

But you're very extreme with your ethics, your morals, your ideals, and these things. It's a very romanticized version of it. Me, I'm looking to kill shit and eat it. I will say, though. I know some guys you'd like to help with. I will say that I had a really good time in Wisconsin, but I had a much more satisfying feeling at the end of the Montana trip

because of the cold, the discomfort, the tent, the hiking, the packing that meat out. And you got that deer in the last day. And I got the deer in the last day. So everything felt like a struggle. And I didn't really, I wasn't too vocal about it. I froze my ass off because I hadn't learned how to, I was sleeping. You weren't vocal about it?

I couldn't layer up enough. And finally, Ryan Callahan said... And you never brought this up. At least not that you remember. There's a YouTube video you just complaining about the cold. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Okay, well, maybe I'm just a whiner.

But I remember being so cold. And Ryan told me, take a hot water bottle, put it in your bottom of your sleeping bag, changed everything. But for the first two nights, I was not sleeping, man. If you put his mustache in the bottom of your sleeping bag, you'd warm no question no question he just shot it speaking to him bless his heart he just shot an elk with his uh with his recurve his old time his old timey bow i mistakenly called it like i always think everything besides the compound stick but a couple guys he's a great guy man i'm sorry he's not here um quick note though on enjoying hard hunts i think it's a great guy, man. I'm sorry he's not here. A quick note, though, on enjoying hard hunts.

I think it's a part of the progression of all hunters, and you might get there one day, too. And I know a lot of old guys that would love to, every season, hunt every single day of the season because they enjoy the hunt and to sit in their stand to be cold, to watch birds and all that, and to kill their deer on the last day that would be their perfect season um yeah i appreciate a tough hunt and i appreciate you guys coming on again because i you know i i realized this the other day

without even really trying to we're sort of doing the honest is there a thing is there a grand slam version for deer so people like people aren't familiar with the whole grand slam concept which isn't a difficult concept to understand all these different animals have like like a grand slam type thing so with turkeys you would do a a grand a grand slam for turkeys would be you'd shoot an eastern turkey a osceola turkey a rio grande and a miriam's is a grand slam now then there's the soup do you know how these go super slam then world slam super slam for turkeys which i which i like almost accidentally completed up to the end what is you add a goulds turkey and you can hunt goulds in arizona and in mexico most people who do it go down to mexico and then you got the world slam which is when you step outside of turkiness outside of the america like here's the thing all those tur, all those turkeys are the North American turkey.

And geneticists don't even really acknowledge the differences between all these things. But then there's another one, the oscillated, which is a whole different species. It's like the second turkey species is the oscillated, which is down in Yucatan. So you go kill him and you got the turkey world slam. Having done this, when i explain this to some of my friends they think it's the stupidest thing on the planet you know but for sheep it's like it's doll sheep stone sheep rocky mountain bighorn desert bighorn is the sheep whatever slam is there a deer one?

I think so. What I'm getting at is you boys are getting terribly close. If we have a successful hunt when we cross the straight and go out to the island. Then we go for coos. Yeah, because then you got like a whitetail. So you got a whitetail. Blacktail. You got a mule deer. Mule deer, whitetail, sick of blacktail.

I think you got to do Columbia black tail and maybe a coos deer. Yeah. Columbia black tail in my yard all the time. Yeah, you'll get that whenever you want. What they think, like, again, geneticists kind of, like, rewrite all this stuff. But now they think that all these things, like the Columbia black tail, the sick of black tail, the mule deer, I mean, they're listed as one species a lot of people don't recognize them as subspecies which is totally bizarre because these deer out here when you walk up to be stunned how small they are oh you mean the ones in alaska the sick of blacktails are small why are they so small

they conserve heat better or what no it's it it's weird oh yeah yeah the big deer like the big deer from the north like the the ones in like saskatchewan they're giant alberta 300 pounds yeah that's your biggest biggest white tails bergman's principle but there's a couple things about bergman's rule or bergman's principle so yeah mammals tend to be larger at the northern extreme of their range in the northern hemisphere they tend to be larger because it has to do with heat dissipation heat retention but they find that mule deer tend to not adhere to that quite as strictly as white tails do so you look at a key like a deer a white-tailed deer in the keys very very small you know 100 pounds if he's lucky florida keys yeah white-tailed deer in alberta 250 pounds just giants so so is that same with

the bigger the person the better they are conserving heat yeah that's why a bigger person big probably right bigger person can serve why is it that those mexican deer that you uh see on television all the time black tail or whitetail and um those moose uh tail and mule deer. They're giant. Are they bringing American? No, the white tails from Mexico are small. Okay. I'm just seeing ones on television shows. No, but they're small bodied.

And the mule deer down there get big antlers. And that's what I'm saying. Mule deer don't conform to that rule quite as strictly as other things do. But what you do find is the mule deer, like what you say, a desert mule deer, is going to have bigger ears. And ears are great for heat retention, dissipation. Like you look at the woolly mammoth. Woolly mammoth, like a big elephant, right?

Little shit in the ears, like barely any ear on that thing. Because he's a cold climate elephant. You look at the African elephant, I mean, giant ears for that. Another place animals lose a lot of heat is inside of their legs. So you'll always notice the hair's thin there. You can stand up to dissipate heat, lay down to collect, to retain heat. But yet another principle that plays in is like sickle blacktails are a coastal and often predominantly island critter.

And for whatever reason, mammals on islands tend toward dwarfism. Reptiles on islands tend toward gargantuanism. Well, then what happens with those giant bears, the Kodiak bears? Yeah, that's an exception for sure. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle

and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Our northern brothers. You're irritated. Well, if you're sick of you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX

are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function.

As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all.

They just have so much access to salmon, I would imagine. Yeah. Whereas a highland bear, like brown bears, in the mountainous regions are like 600 pounds because they live on berries and stuff. That's what I heard. Yeah, and the grizzlies that you get in the far north

are smaller. Yeah, there's exceptions all over the place but anyways these are some dinky ass deers like what's a big one what's a big sitka blacktail 100 pounds it's all bigger than that you i don't think you'll get it i don't think a big box can weigh 150 pounds wow i mean a lot of them weigh like i said man they're like sub 100 pounds you walk up you're like wow that's not what i thought i was looking at oh right right but you know but it's like in the antlers are you have to they're just not as big as white tails it's like imagine that like the only let's say the only woman dudes knew about was like pamela anderson like the whitetail deer is the Pamela Anderson deer. You know?

It's just like souped up and a lot of work been done on it. You know what I mean? It's just like this thing, you know, and you look at the cover magazines, you look at these giants on farms. So when you go out, if everyone knew that woman and only that woman, they're going to have a harder time appreciating

someone of a more subtle refined beauty because the bread the deer you're talking about that you see on the cover of those hunting magazines are corn fed basically there's more than that man they're injected even even like magazines like i've talked i don't want to name the magazines i got friends worked and i write there now and then but in in the fall they always put a big giant buck on the cover of the magazine and the magazine has a has a editorial standpoint standpoint where they're not for fenced hunting so they don't like cover fenced hunting in the magazine they don't write about fenced hunting in the magazine but all their bucks got names man you know i mean they got bucks just the bucks on the cover of the magazine are just farm bucks it's like bucks you're not going to see in the wild.

It's like Larry the Buck. It won't say that, but it's like a Pennsylvania giant. And the photographer took him an hour to try to get a shot where it wasn't like a... Why are the wolves in Yellowstone? And I don't know if these are doctored photographs. Put your thing up to your mouth. Sorry. Why are they so...

There you go. Why are they so... Welcome to the podcast, Brian Cale. Sorry back back um why are the um wolves and yellowstone so so giant like these guys who've shot them and they're holding them up and they're literally bigger than the by far the person is that because they have so much access to elk and they're just i think that yeah i think they're big well-fed there's like there's conspiracy theories that many that like the forest service somehow wanted to really stick it to really screw over montanans and wyoming people and so they're like well i know what i'll do to them. I'll go get super wolves, which is what they call them.

I'll go get super wolves from elsewhere, Canada, and bring them down and let them go. And these wolves are way bigger than the wolves that were here at the time of European contact, and that'll show them. And they'll know. I don't really know what they're like. If they're trying to stick it to them, I don't know what they're sticking it to them about. But that's one theory is that.

Another thing would be that they right now are expanding their range. They have in many areas low competition with other wolves because they're still in an expansion phase. The energy moves outward to new territory, and there's a lot to eat, and they're still in an expansion phase. The energy moves outward to new territory, and there's a lot to eat, and they're healthy. How much do those weigh? How much does a big timber wolf weigh? They can weigh a couple hundred pounds.

Wow. But people say that. That's one of those numbers. We've talked about this before. There's certain numbers that always get thrown around. 200-pound mountain lion. Yeah, all that stuff. The wolves are that big.

They're giants. They're giants. They're huge. We did hear that story from a fairly credible source about the guy that knew the trapper that supposedly trapped live trapped some of these wolves in the first introduction the 97 introduction or whatever yeah into yellowstone and that he had trapped like 16 or 17 wolves and he had them and he picked like hand picked the biggest baddest meanest wolves like the wolves that all the rest of wolves in the pens were like

like scared of and coward he's like those stupid bastards down the states let's send them these three he's like you want wolves do you here's some wolves I don't know what you're thinking here you go it seems like a crazy idea it seems like a crazy idea.

It seems like a crazy idea that's kind of backfiring in a lot of places. I don't know. Not backfiring with the wolves, man. Yeah, the numbers are high. Really high, right? Well, they feel like maybe when the hunts were running, they felt like they turned the corner in Montana a little bit. I know my brother was just saying, the one that just lost a significant portion of elk to bears.

He was up and saw seven of them, you know. I mean, that's like totally anecdotal, but they're out. It's funny because the area we hunt elk in, me past tense, him still. We started hunting elk in this area. We hunted there for 10 years. We started hunting elk there in 96. We hunted there for 10 years. We started hunting elk there in 96. So it was before the wolf thing hit. That elk herd that we've hunted has been greatly reduced.

It's like the elk numbers have declined in that specific herd. They had declined by 50-some percent. Wow. But my brother kills an elk every year. His success rate has maintained, has gone the same. And I think it's like elk go down, but his knowledge level of the area,

you know, has kept pace. He's sort of made up for it. Now I can only imagine because before wolves came in, this like, this sounds totally just like one guy's experience, but I've had other people say this too. When wolves came in hard we're kind of like ladies and gentlemen we're kind of talking about the what they call the

greater yellowstone ecosystem or the area around yellowstone where the wolves are now wyoming idaho montana but when those wolves came in and really started hammering those elk the elk got paranoid in a way that they weren't before. I think they just got a mentality of just being hunted all the time. So it felt for a while like when you went on an opening day and they hadn't been harassed by hunters. They were just relaxed in a way and they were in vulnerable locations. And I think that, and many people agree with this, that that herd has adjusted its behavior so much. It'll eventually have to adjust its behavior a lot in order to learn how to cope with the new threat.

But think of it in the reverse. If you think about taking a drive through Yellowstone National Park, you're going to Yellowstone now, and the elk in Yellowstone are scared shitless of wolves. They're scared shitless of grizzlies. What they don't care about are human beings, okay? So you'll have elk feeding 10, 20, 30 feet from your car, oblivious to your presence. Not oblivious. They know you're there. They just don't care, right?

Yellowstone hasn't been actively hunted for over 100 years okay so on that chunk of property they have ruled out humans as being something to be worried about so when they're out they can go feed in the area where maybe they're safe from wolves or safer from wolves where they can see around or whatever but also at the same time they don't have to worry at all about their proximity to people if all of a sudden tomorrow you start saying that you know i'm gonna let a handful of hunters every year come into yellowstone national park and just start taking pot shots at these elk someone would come in and say like these elk are stupid they just stand there and let you shoot them but it'll be but yeah because they haven't adjusted to the threat yet.

Right. And so with wolves, they will eventually, hopefully, they will reach some kind of technological stalemate with the wolves where they seem like a little bit better to withstand the kind of pressure. One hopes that's starting to happen. At the same time, I'm an advocate of continuing to whittle down the wolf numbers. Just manage them

like you would anything else. Just because they're so devastating. Not so much because they're so devastating, but because they're a renewable resource. They're a renewable resource. There's hunter interest in them. It's been proven by most people who don't have a political axe to

grind believe that we can maintain a harvest on wolves without destroying the resource or damaging the resource like you maintain a viable population of them the same way we try to maintain a viable population of mountain lions viable population of black bears we rebuilt well yeah i mean mountain lion are so incredibly plentiful in utah for example that when you get your fishing license it comes automatically with a mountain lion tag is that true yeah that's so i was amazed at that when you apply for a fishing license look it up whether you have a hunting license or not when you apply for a fishing license you get an automatic tag for a for a license. I was amazed. What do you think of that, Giannis?

California. No, no, Utah. Can't hunt lions in California. Utah. Meanwhile, one just attacked a kid in Silicon Valley. Did you hear about that? Seriously? Cupertino. Six-year-old kid got attacked by a mountain lion. His father had to fucking scream and yell at the mountain lion to get it off the kid.

It didn't kill him. The cops did. Cops found the mountain lion and killed it. They got the DNA from the kid's jacket, so when they shot the mountain lion, they it off the kid the cops did cops found the mountain lion killed it they got the dna from the kid's jacket so when they shot the mountain lion they did a dna test they knew they had the right one in colorado a six-year-old was walking between her family her parents and mountain lion just came down took her took her off not dead though no killer took her off yeah i'm not a big fan of when was that uh four or five years okay yeah i'm not a big fan of cats that's a terrible tragedy i mean that's like what in the world i don't know i mean is it worse than a car i mean well i mean in other words back to the family i

mean in other words it's so rare like how many how many people have really been killed by mountain lions really one every 20 years man yeah it's that's why i can't that's why i'm not it that's what yeah no it's like, it's like one, there's like one mountain lion fatality every 20 years. It's so rare, man. It's so rare. Um,

you know what I was, I heard recently, what was the number of years I was saying? Did you see this? The last time a bow hunter was killed by a grit, like as much as, but like when you're hunting bow hunting for elk, you're cow calling,

you're making, you're mimicking the sound of a cow elk. Hit it, Giannis. Hit a nice cow call. Yeah. Yeah. Grizzlies hear that? Yeah, they hear that.

And they hunt the sound. So bow hunters are frequently, like just in my own extended circle, like friends of friends, every year there's guys that are calling in grizzlies while trying to call out. I couldn't believe this. Not a bow hunter's been killed in the Rocky Mountains in at least 25 years by grizzlies. Yeah, I forget what it was.

A couple rifle hunters. Someone wrote a statement saying that it was happening. Chuck Adams. Yeah. All due respect to Chuck Adams. I mean, he's like a great hunter who's been writing a lot more, about a lot more stuff than I ever have in my life when it comes to hunting. Made the mistake of saying how sometimes bow hunters do get killed,

or unfortunately they do get killed. And then someone did the research and said, no, in fact, they don't. There's no record of a bow hunter. I think was ben long from yeah ben long from backcountry hunters and anglers was the one that wound up saying that no it doesn't happen but anyways yeah once every 20 years i think it's once every 20 years kids are more vulnerable though right kids and ladies joggers particularly i think you look like something the lion wants to snack on you look like something's running away too probably. Something's scared. Not the way I run.

I've seen – oh, go ahead. I bought two Utah fishing licenses, and I didn't see that on my fishing license. Look it up. I was just told that by my father. You just do it quick. I mean, there's like a handful of reasons why that wouldn't be right. It doesn't seem to make sense. I don't mean to nitpick, but you don't have a hunting license. Now I'm curious.

My father told me that. My father did. He just got his – he lives in but you don't have a hunting license. Now I'm curious. My father told me that. My father did. He lives in Utah, and he got a fishing license, and he said that you get an automatic tag for a mountain lion. You know what I think he might have got? I think he maybe got a fishing license. We're talking about something that we're not able to resolve, which is like one of the worst things.

Well, we can look it up, though, can't we? We can Google it right now. So what he probably got is they probably sent him, because they had his name and everything, they probably maybe sent him a lion application, a permit application. Oh, maybe, huh? Regardless, I've seen three lions. It used to seem like a lot.

Now I feel like it's only. I've only seen three lions. Jay Scott, who Giannis guided for for a long time, Colburn and Scott Outfitters, they guide what? They guide elk Arizona. They guide Mexico. Colorado mule deer. Colorado mule deer. I said to Jay, I said,

hey man, how many lions you seen? And he spends a lot of time behind his binoculars. He said, I'm looking for number 35 right now. Whoa. He's seen, he's glassed up 35 lions hunting. He does live behind his binoculars for a

great portion of the year the the guy who was i think the head of the fishing game or wildlife service or whatever um i remember he had to step down he was in california yep and he hunted a mountain lion very legally in another state yeah and and they flipped out on him you can't hunt lions in california meanwhile people were like listen the the amount of money that the parks make on hunting licenses and stuff that's what supports you know the habitat and the maintain the maintenance of the habitat etc and all the other things well that's a real problem with california right it's ideologically driven it doesn't really have anything to do with managing wildlife yeah they have like california actually has some like outspoken anti-hunting people who are on their you know fish and wildlife commission that's hilarious it used to be called fishing game and

there's a lot of states where it's not fishing game but california was fishing game and california just became not fishing game they became like fish and wildlife to sort of disassociate with the term game which is sort of this like objectification of animals i feel bad people in california they hammered all the time like it could it was first that you can't hunt lions with a dog then you can't hunt lions at all now there's a big thing to have like no dog hunting whatsoever or like no dog hunting mammals or something of any they still have bear hunting but they don't have bear with dogs. Yeah. They just got rid of that.

When we were at Tohon Ranch, they were saying it's pointless to hunt bears without dogs. You can't bait. You can't use dogs. Then you can't find bears. In that area, it'd be tough, man. It'd be tough. Other states, like Montana, you can't run bears with a dog. You can't bait for bears.

But the topography warrants itself to spot and start bear hunting which is really good you know and and if it like like maine this november very likely through the humane society maine will very likely in november vote down bear baiting okay pushed entirely funded entirely by humane society but they put it to a referendum they had it up before and it lost by a few points. It's coming back up now. A lot of people think that it'll pass and they'll do a baiting ban on bears in Maine. But Maine's largely flat, heavily vegetated.

To ban baiting for bears is essentially to ban bear hunting. And they know this. And so that's how people go after hunting stuff is they try to isolate out little, what they consider fringe activities. Because I was reading this poll one time. They did this poll in Arizona saying to people, do you support a person's right to hunt? And you wind up getting this, whatever it is.

I can't remember exactly, but 76% of the population is like, yes. You do the same poll and ask people specific questions. And it starts going down, down, down, and down. Like, do you support someone's right to hunt blank? And it drops. So it's like, they like the idea of it, but the specificity of it. Especially things like baiting. Yeah.

You know, whatever it is. It feels like it's trophy hunting. It feels like you're not really, there's no skill involved. That's what it feels like, right? So if you say we're going to bait the bear skill involved that's what it feels like right so if you say we're going to bait the bear in and shoot it it feels like target most people are against hunting bears at all i i would imagine if you just put an online poll on facebook saying how many people are pro bear hunting yeah it'd be a giant number would be against it when i first proposed

it to you i remember you were really uneasy about the idea yeah but you wanted something that's gonna be good to eat yeah i wanted to hunt deer the first time i wanted to hunt i was like man bear i don't know about all that but um having shot a bear now and eating a bear they're great to eat yeah they they taste good they mean they they taste good it's not like you have to convince yourself and i had to argue with people online that were giving me a hard time that were actually hunters. They were telling me, you can't tell me bear is good to eat. It's ridiculous. You know, I've been hunting my whole life.

You know, everyone I know says bear tastes awful. I'm like, you're crazy. You're, you know, I've eaten it. I'm telling you from the flesh in my mouth, chewing it down, it tastes good. It doesn't taste bad at all. There's, go ahead. Depending upon diet, of course. Real quick, just because someone is a great hunter

does not make them a good cook of wild game. True too, right? It's also people have attitudes about certain animals where they just discard the meat. You know, there's some people that have no problem. When we were in camp, we were in honey camp, and there was this one guy that was with us who would not eat the bear meat.

He just wouldn't eat the bear. He shot a big-ass seven-foot bear. That might be also because, like, there's always been a history of, you know, certain things you don't eat, right? So mountain lion or bear, especially, because they have trichinosis and things like that. Mountain lion apparently tastes really good. It's really good. It is good. Mountain lion is good.

Really? It's like pork. Really? White flesh. I'm surprised by that. White flesh. I ate some mountain lion burgers once and then that night

I had a dream that a mountain lion was eating me. Is that true? Yeah. That's heavy. You had a mountain lion burger. That's dark.

It was laced with ayahuasca. For some reason. I would imagine though animals that eat vegetarian. Don't his mountain lion burger got roofied. ayahuasca. For some reason. I would imagine, though, animals that eat vegetarian. Don't eat Mullenburg at roofies. Ayahuasca. My wife said I smelled different when I came home. From bear hunting? She said I'd been eating bear.

She actually said you smelled different. She said I smelled like a killer. First time she ever smelled a man. She said it was weird. Yeah. She said you smell like threatening. Really? Yeah. Because you smell like threatening. Really? Yeah.

Because he was like, oh. I wonder if you eat predators. Do a grizzly thing. It's incredible. It's the greatest bear call I've ever heard. My old man, I know you're making a point. I just want to add real quick about that whole smell thing. My old man, when I was a kid had a friend who during during deer season would only eat like leafy greens and

carrots and stuff yeah that makes sense so your breath smells like you really don't smell like a meteor he really felt it you know well i've seen on hunting shows guys eat spruce tree needles yeah they chew the two because your breath apparently that's that's the thing that the animals really smell that was one of the big things about all the charcoal infused clothing and like scent control clothing wow yeah you put it all on but people would say but dude your whole your whole like smell factory man is you exhaling you know and they probably like it would suck to breathe smell people's breath from, like, 500 yards away. Tim Burnett said that he was hunting once, and I think he said 200 yards.

He said he was downwind 200 yards, and he saw an animal go like that. He knew the animal winded him, and he ran off. Dude, absolutely. That's nothing. 200 yards is nothing. That's nothing. That's incredible. It is incredible. 200 yards. The that's incredible it is incredible 200 yards

yes oh the wind came from him to the animal 200 yards away absolutely he might have said three i think he might have said that that's astounding to me yeah but he was like i can't believe that thing can smell you it's also interesting that smell particles would travel that quickly well tim was also talking about some new product it's like a nose blocker or nose jammer, scent jammer, I think it's called. Have you heard of that? I've seen it. It does something. In an aerosol can?

Confuses the hell out of deer. He used it on the shot. You put it on you or you put it on the air? You put it on you. You put it on you, and you could see the deer going, wow, what the fuck is that? The deer was putting its nose up in the air, but stayed there. Didn't run off, deer like going like, wow, what the fuck is that? The deer was like putting its nose up in the air but stayed there. Didn't run off. But it was like, what is

this? Like it was just confusing it. What's this thing? I think it's called Buck Bomb? No, no, no. I think it's called Scent Jammer. That's right. They call me the Buck Bomb.

They call me the Buck Bomb. they call me the buck bomb they call me the buck bomb they call me the the kid game on the kid my yep game eye killer yep the cashmere killer is the best he was wearing cashmere yep montana that's right did you bring some this time yeah i brought i got two pieces of cashmere what'd you bring your scarf god I got two pieces of cashmere. What'd you bring? Your scarf? I brought a beautiful, lightweight cashmere sweater. James purse. And then a lovely V-neck, a lovely hunter green V-neck by J. Crew. Really brings out my eyes.

James Crew. My James Crew. It's the higher level of J. Crew. It brings out my autumn brown eyes. Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join.

Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, of you know sucking high and titty there on x is now in canada the great features that you love in on x are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning gps with hunting maps that include public and crown land hunting zones aerial imagery 24k topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right, we're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you, you guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the excitement.

You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services hand-picked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and

more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet.

Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. So, you'll have a good time. All right, so, Boham, I feel like we're on a tangent. That's what podcasts are all about. I don't know, but I was interested in the main line.

Eating predators. The first bear hunt. Yeah, and the guy that didn't want to eat the bear. Yeah. This guy, he shot two of them. Didn't eat any of it. I wonder if when people are uneasy with bear hunting, I think there's the charismatic megapafauna thing at play where,

I mean, they're just charismatic, right? They stand up on their back feet. I remember the writer Jim Harrison wrote, I can't remember which one of his books, but he saw a guy had skinned out a bear, and he had it hanging, and he commented that it just looked like a dude hanging there. It looked like a skinned out dude hanging there.

And he didn't want anything to do with it. So I think there's that. And then there's also probably just the legacy that bear hunters have kind of created for themselves about, oh, the meat's no good, or I don't want to eat the meat. That certainly doesn't help the case. Yeah, it's pretty prevalent. I was amazed at how much backlash I got online, not just from non-hunters, which I expected,

but from hunters who said, you know, hunters wouldn't hunt predators, didn't hunt bear, and said, you know, it's ridiculous that you hunt bear because you don't even eat it. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm smoking a bear ham right now. There's a real difference. I don't think they have a ton

of opportunities man i think when people say that oftentimes what they're really saying is because of my personal situation how i was brought up where i live i don't hunt bears i told this story story a hundred times where i was sitting i know this guy in south carolina that has a deer blind he calls the condo okay and he built a heated structure with windows all the way around it and he has office chairs in it and lead sleds set up in it this is his hunting blind and a bunk bed in a microwave all the stuff is in his hunting blind and radiating out from the condo are shooting lanes that he's got planted in clover and alfalfa that run out like spokes of a wheel okay so he can sit up there and rove around in a rolling office chair

i mean that's like he may as well just farm deer well he essentially does where does he live and do you know him can we go over his house you would hang out with him You would have the best time over there hunting in this thing. But anyways, I'm up in this thing with him and we're waiting for deer to come out and I'm telling him how I'm going to go out to hunt

dry ground lions, which means I'm going to go out with a friend who runs lions with hounds in the desert and it's much more difficult to run lions in the snow because one thing the dogs can't tell is what way the lion went so when you have snow you can at least deduce the direction the lions travel if the dogs lose the track you can pick the track back up again because it's there in the snow and you can tell a lot about the antiquity of the track the age of the track just based on when the snow fell, what it looks like.

Like snow holds tracks in a different way than our stuff. Hunting them in the desert, your dogs might be running a line that you're just never going to see a track from. And then part of the skill is just being able to read, sign, find the track, judge from the dog's behavior. Whether they think the track's hot or not hot all these things play into it it's the most difficult thing i've ever been involved in hunt or one of the most difficult things i've ever been involved with hunting anyways i'm telling him i want to go do this and he's up in his rolling office chair and the condo turns me he's like i just don't see the challenge and something like that so it's like jeez people like when they're like oh i don't hunt bears it's like

you know why you don't hunt bears dude because your dad probably didn't hunt bears you probably don't live in a bear hunting area right or if you did get a hold of some bear meat somebody cooked it poorly yeah so it's like you poorly you build up it's like you build up what you do and don't do based on a bunch of things and after a while a bunch of arbitrary things and after a while i think it starts to feel like a code of ethics to you when in fact it's just like you just do what you were brought up doing man right there is a difference though i mean i think that when you when you see somebody and you walk in and you say i'm a trophy hunter and they have um no one walks up and says that no no but i'm just saying that in people's minds i think

when you hunt deer i notice i just notice that when you hunt deer they go people go well deer you're obviously hunting it for the meat yeah it's a little bit like a cow it's like a forest cow whereas i call them forest cows uh when you hunt um when you go kill an elephant let's just take the extreme a noble animal like an elephant or we we always put those kind of words on that kind of a thing a pachyderm they got family structures and stuff viscerally for people like 13 years of their kids yeah man so viscerally there's a very different feel you know lions those kinds of things there's a very different reaction and i i think it's it's primarily a positive one in terms

of the fact that i think people just go you're doing that you're killing this noble beautiful animal for your own sort of uh either ego or because you want its head on your wall yeah and i think that that's where people kind of and i think that's a very human thing you know what's really ironic the same guy who wouldn't eat the bear told me the most delicious meat he ever had was elephant wow he just sounds like a contrarian man no no no no no he's a very nice guy he wasn't a contrarian at all he just was saying like he went elephant hunting and they knew the exact spot to cut out a steak and it was like from inside the arm like inside the

the leg and he said i am telling you it was delicious it's delicious meat and i was like wow i would have never first of all i knew that the villagers ate the meat but i would never assume that it was so good that like they'd cook it for the client yeah especially a guy who won't even eat a bear yeah were elephants hunted by uh like in in that area of africa i wonder i don't know i don't know why not difficult yeah hard to bring it well when they kill like yeah you know they like historically they would kill giraffes those poison darts yeah i have this old video from the 50s yeah this old video from the 50s where they hit a giraffe with a poison dart. I don't know. I can't remember how many.

They follow it for three or four days until it finally starts vomiting and then it dies and they chop it up. Have you ever seen that video? There's an old-school bow hunter. It wasn't Fred Bear, but it was one of those guys like that who was some Tom Miranda-type adventure bow hunter from the 1940s or whatever it was. It was like black and white footage. Yeah, not Art LaHobb. Who's that dude?

You know him? You know the guy? He, what the hell's his name? Like shot the, killed the elephant with a longbow, man. Yeah. Yeah, he shot an elephant. I mean, he's strong. Art Young.

It was either Pope, it was Saxon Pope or Art Young. Was it one of those guys? I do not remember the guy's name. He killed an elephant with a bow? Dude, not only did he kill an elephant with a bow but he stuck that thing full of arrows i mean he had to shoot it a bunch of times he's pulling a bow it's a bobo like not like a compound bow from hoyt yeah like a high yeah yeah it was a regular bow and the guy just kept shooting it and the elephant's like and it was a screwy video because it was very clear that

the sound in the video was not the actual sound of the encounter they had added it in in post like a movie shop would yeah like there's a video of masai warriors throwing like five or six of them just throwing these that you know i don't know if you know masai the bantu masai from from uh kenya tall yeah six six seven and they traditionally used to live essentially total carnivores they live on about seven quarts of high fat milk a day and they would tap the vein of their um cattle and drink the blood and that was primarily their diet and then they would eat meat when they could afford it and you see these maasai five or six of them with those long spears throwing them into a male lion really oh dude they're just coming up and going running boom and that lion just basically has five long spears in it it starts

to buck and it just dies and lion lion in that part of Africa are very wary of humans. They will run away from you. Even when they hunt lion on horseback, lions give chase. They don't. We've talked about this many times on other podcasts, the hunting in Africa controversy. And I really like that piece that you wrote about hunting in Africa, like this whole thing about what this

controversy involving this young girl yeah he's going there and uh that you were you know essentially saying that a lot of the difference is the way people were approaching her it's sexist if if it was a man that it was that was doing the same thing, there would be some blowback, but not as much. If some dude, some guy worked at the phone company his whole life, and stays up and goes to Africa and shot a couple of elf and a leopard

and put it up on his Facebook page, he would have got zero visits. Or a lot of hate. No one would have cared. Very little. Very little. If it was just a regular guy like you were saying how they kind of attacked the little you know pieces of oh yeah but it's like a story a woman she's a beautiful girl from texas who's a cheerleader and she wants to be she wants to be steve ranella she wants to be a female version of steve ranella so she's trying to like

be a part of the hunting, professional hunting community. But that is rare because women have traditionally never been hunters. Men have, right? Well, sort of. Except for, like I point out, except for they think that there was very low sexual dimorphism in Neanderthals, and they think that maybe Neanderthal women hunted right along. Everybody was starving.

That's why they died off. Nobody wants to fuck one of those crazy female hunting rods. They had a way longer. It's built like you. Joe, excuse me. Listen, Neanderthals had a way longer run they had a way longer run than we'll have you think they were in europe 500 000 years before we were yeah but we'll be here for millions of years no we won't i predict you want to bet oh really i'll be there to collect you ever read the bible the world's only 6 000 years old so i don't know what hell you're talking about correct um but one of the things that i find disturbing about the whole africa thing is uh there's a lot of these um like these bow hunting shows these people

go over there to collect like i'm gonna get one of these and one of those and they're doing it in these high fence joints and it's it's just it's weird man in africa they're doing yes yeah south africa when someone goes to south africa they're hunting like say like if you go to south africa you're you're hunting fence property it's like if you go to new zealand and shoot a large red deer you shot it on fence ground you know only like these 300 inch red deer that come out of New Zealand? Fence. But hold on. Here's the important part. Those animals were literally on the verge of extinction

before these high fence operations came into play. So it's such a catch-22. On one hand, you see, well, it's a renewable resource, and now these animals are actually very plentiful, and they're no longer worried about being extinct. But on the other hand, they're in a yard. It's essentially a yard. It might be it's 10,000 acres,

but it's a 10,000-acre fenced-in yard. That was always the argument. If you want to save the animals, make it profitable to hunt them. That's the argument for Texas. But the biggest threat though is more habitat yeah i think it's habitat but it definitely pays to have hunt it definitely pays to have hunter interest i mean if you look at like you look at all these things that have you know you got these organizations national wild turkey federation rocky mountain elk foundation

ducks unlimited trout unlimited these are things these are powerful political organizations or have political impact they have a lot of money and they're based around people's love of hunting for or fishing for these species and it winds up being that like you can't really get away with messing with these animals because these people are going to come after you and make your life hell. If you're going to destroy habitat or whatever. So it does, not on the individual sense. On the individual sense, it's like you just got shot.

That sucks. But I don't think about animals in the individual sense. I think about a population level kind of thing. And if you are concerned about the long-term vi about like a population level kind of thing and if you are concerned about the long-term viability of a population of animals in this country and apparently in many countries in africa and certainly in canada it pays if people want to kill you it's like that's right advantages that people have if people are motivated to desires for trophies meat whatever to hunt for you you have you have more political clout as a species.

Exactly. People worry about the populations of elephants, right? Even rhinos. But if you want to shoot an elephant, you can pay, I think it's like $30,000, and you can shoot a fucking elephant. I mean, I watched a show, and this is where it really bothered me because they were calling it a bow hunt so this guy gets out there he sticks this bow and he sticks an arrow into this elephant the elephant charges him and then the guide blows one through the elephant's brain and the elephant's

down did the arrow hit look fatal probably eventually maybe it's hard to tell it was like you don't think it would have bled out or it might have bled out? I don't think the guy was pulling a hard enough bow. I mean, I think if you're going to kill an elephant, you've got a lot of animal. How much do they weigh? 10,000 pounds? I have no idea.

Something crazy? It was an enormous elephant, though. I don't know how many thousand pounds. They weigh about 10,000 pounds. So the guy's only about 30 yards away. He hits the elephant with the arrow. The elephant recognizes immediately that this guy with the bow is the one who shot him. Starts running towards him.

And the guide, boom, blows the elephant to the brain. And then he's congratulating him on his kill. And I'm like, what? Yeah. What? What is this? This is weird. I think that the alternative, if you don't make hunting profitable,

then what happens with people who are anti-hunting, the alternative is what? To enforce a ban on hunting with laws. That doesn't work in huge areas. You have massive poaching problems. But look at it this way. How many people are going to donate $30,000 to keep elephant populations healthy? Exactly.

Is it even one? I mean, how many people? Maybe. You'd have to run some kind of drive. Good luck. You're not going to have a ton of people. The dude from U2, what's his name? He would.

I don't know. But you're right. I mean, that's a very good point. It's a very good point because there's no other way to generate that amount of money. I mean, think about how many people get hunting tags. I mean, how many people get whitetail deer tags in this country? It goes back to what you were saying about California. It's ideological.

And I think any kind of ideology, you know, that's the enemy. That's where rationality and figuring out what's best for the animal actually you know it's interesting but it's even to someone like me who enjoys hunting it's disturbing i don't like it right i don't like seeing it i don't like it i don't like the idea behind it i don't like seeing these sloppy goofy fucks just hop on planes and go shoot these animals in someone's yard it just seems weird to me the whole thing seems off it doesn't seem legit you know there's like why look there's nothing wrong with farming i enjoy a nice steak i don't think there's anything wrong with farming but

when you take these wild animals and you're pretending that you're hunting but really you're kind of doing some pseudo farming type thing yeah that's really what's going on it's like you're shooting fish in a barrel literally literally shooting fish in a barrel that's really what you're doing who was it i think i feel like you corrected me when i mentioned this before but was it jesse helms or someone who's like i know uh i can't tell you what pornography is but i know know it when I see it. No, that was the Supreme Justice. Yeah. That was when it came to the Supreme Court. What guy was it?

I can't remember. Scalia? No. No, it wasn't Scalia. No, I was way over that. It was, oh gosh, I used to know his name. Clarence Thomas? Nope, but he said- Michael Jackson.

Third good marshal? It might have been Robert Bork. Bork might have said- It wasn't Helms? I can't remember. He said, I don't know how to define pornography i know it when i see it yeah so that is one like that's one thing i feel about as far as fair chase it's difficult to define it's difficult to define down fair chase you know

because i'll say like i don't agree with fenced hunting like to me it just feels like farming and you're bullshitting yourself and others when you act like it's hunting people like what if I'm hunting a fence place that's like 12,000 acres you know way bigger than an individual animal's home range Porter Stewart oh really you know who that is yeah he was on the supreme court i believe whatever so that guy they'll put out something like that and you're like okay yeah in that case maybe that's whatever so it's like i just it's like it's so hard for me to sit down and say like fair chase hunting is blank but some stuff's just not right you know it's just not i'll tell you what is fair chase hunting on black tail deer,

Prince Wales Island. Yeah. That's fair. In the rain and fog. Yeah. We're climbing up. So fair chase. In fact, that I really have no idea.

I feel like if we hunt hard and keep a good attitude, um, and, and, and really get out there and pound it, even if the weather's bad, I think we'll do good. If we were going there and the weather was going to be good, and it's not,

if we were going there and the weather was going to be good, I think that we would have just a fantastic hunt. I think we'd be coming back every night with deer. But it's just, you know, you get the wind, the fog, the rain, things get hard, things get miserable. Fair chase. Yeah. Anything you want to add, Dan Doherherty you try to keep this to an hour yeah yeah try to not doing anything you're gonna sleep because our our audience we don't have the amount of drug takers that your audience that your audience does that's not what it is

you know what it is? It's commuters. It's like by imposing a time, you know, like, look, if someone downloads a podcast, most people have enough room on their phone or on their whatever, their computer, wherever they put it. They have enough room for three hours or five hours or whatever

and they delete the old ones when they run out of time. But when someone's on a plane or when someone's driving, that's when I think they appreciate long podcasts. I'm sure. Yeah, but you don't have to listen to all of it. Everybody was telling me when I first started doing podcasts,

you've got to edit this. That's one of the earliest complaints. The first piece of advice they have. Even Ari was one of my best friends. So what made you do three hours? What was the idea? Because I wanted to do three hours. You wanted it to be as long as a really good movie, man.

No, my personal instinct was I enjoy talking to people for long periods of time because I think the conversations, they take turns. And as long as my attention span is there while i'm having the conversation why stop it keep it rolling are you tired are you tired of talking if you're not tired of talking let's keep talking that's always been my my feeling because i think that the deeper you get into a conversation a conversation is uh it plays out not you know it's not like a movie obviously a movie is far more difficult to make but there's turns and twists and you find out more about a person and you get to understand a person's style of communicating. And while, while you're talking to someone, when you're doing a podcast,

especially when you're the host of a podcast, cause you're kind of thinking about the entertainment value of it or how it should be. I'm constantly thinking about it, not just as a person who's engaged in a conversation, but as a person who's engaged in a conversation, but as a person who might be listening to this, I want to try to play devil's advocate as much as possible. I want to try to cover as many points of view as possible. And I also, I'm kind of understanding this person's style of communicating. And I'm trying to figure out a way to not talk over them

or pause as much as possible or give them as much of an opportunity to expound on their ideas that takes time you know i think that uh you know some podcasts i bailed on something the other day after two hours i'm like this guy's boring really well thanks a lot man and i tell you they can kind of tell remember that mitch hedberg joke about taking attention deficit disorder drugs even though he's not afflicted? How did it go?

He said he runs around saying, man, there's got to be more to that story. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Some people are just like, well, Demetri Martin was doing a joke, and he goes, one thing you never hear is somebody say, God, I wish that guy had talked more about himself at that party. That's the worst. It's such a great joke.

Or, wow, I wish that guy would drop more names. Yeah. I didn't really get a strong sense of his professional connections. Do you know who's that way? Do you know who's that way? And I think I can say it. Nick Nolte, because he's been such a product

of Hollywood for so long. He literally, I spent a long time with him. I thought he was a product of alcohol. And I know you know him. I never, yeah, I never, I spent enough time with him.

Like in the background, the scenes in that movie Warrior, I spent a lot of time doing it. I did a reading with him. Oh, did you really? Went to his house. And one of the fascinating, two things that I noticed.

One, he had no stories that didn't involve Hollywood and a star. And two, I probably spent I don't know how many hours. He never asked me one question about myself.

Like just not one thing about anybody else. See, when I talked to him, all he wanted to talk to me about was me. Is that right? Says Joe, tell me about that bear you killed.

What was going through your mind when you killed that bear? Yeah, well he was like, you're like a rich man's Joe Rogan, Brian Callen. I want to spend time with you. I saw him in Fry's once. He was buying a computer for his kid. And he was just totally normal. Oh, hey, Joe, you're buying a computer.

I'm trying to figure out which one he gave to my boy. That was good. He's a great guy. He was very good. And that Michael, who's that guy Moe used to work for? Talk about name dropping. Michael Mann. That was good. He's a great guy. He was very good. Who's that guy Moe used to work for? Talk about name dropping. Michael Mann.

And that Michael Mann show they were doing where Nick Nolte was in it as the horse guy. What show was that? It was like a series. It got canceled because they kept killing horses. Oh, I don't know what that is. Yeah, the Southern one. It was a horse game. It got canceled because they were killing horses. The horses kept all dying. Yeah, luck. Yeah, luck. It was just also not a very good show. got canceled because they were killing horses. All the damn horses. The horses kept all dying.

Yeah, Luck. Yeah, Luck. It was just also not a very good show. Nick Nolte was in it. No, man, I liked that show. I didn't understand what was going on. So it was a show about horse racing, and the horses were dying during production? Yeah.

Because they were running them? A couple of them. One died. It was a big deal. Another one died, and they just ended the show. Oh, wow. They also ended the show, though, because people weren't watching it. On a related note.

I think so. But it was so early in, man. I know so. It was hard to follow. But Nick, because people weren't watching it. On a related note. I know so. It was so early in, man. It was hard to follow. But Nick Nolte was cool in it. And he was the only cool thing about that recent, the Robert Redford one. It was kind of like based off the Weather Underground. Oh, yeah. When he comes out and does a role, he's like good.

He was great in Warrior. Amazing in Warrior. He was fucking. A lot of people didn't see that movie. That movie was not a well-received movie, but Nick Nolte's role in it was fucking incredible.

And you were in it? He played this alcoholic dad who was a trainer who just missed his son, but he has this one breakdown scene. It's fucking incredible. It is incredible.

It's hard to believe the guy's not really breaking down while the scene's going on. It's incredible. And he got sober for that movie, man. I mean, it was fucking. It is incredible. It's hard to believe the guy's not really breaking down while the scene's going on. It's incredible. And he got sober for that movie, man. I mean, that was fucking...

He's amazing. Yeah, he's amazing. That guy can act his ass off. Yeah, he can. He's a real artist. All right, so you can catch Brian Callen on the movie Warrior. Yeah. That's right, guys.

He plays me. You can catch Brian Callen on... I literally play Joe Rogan. You can catch Brian Callen on... Is that true? Yeah. They tried to get Joe to do it. And he plays...

He does my role that I do at the UFC. He did that for that movie. And my name is Brian Callen on, is that true? Yeah. They tried to get Joe to do it. He does my role that I do at the UFC. He did that for that movie. And my name is Brian Callen on the show. And you can catch Brian Callen on all kinds of other stuff. Is it really? Yeah. You can see me in everything, you guys. You ever heard of the movie?

You ever heard of the movie? Not to make it about me, but The Hangover of Mad TV. No! First two years of Mad TV, guys. Go get those DVDs. I can finally get that operation all right thank you joe thanks man always glad you're doing this yeah it's awesome steve renell Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada.

You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now, the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service as a special offer you can get a free

three months to try out on x if you visit on x maps.com slash meet