The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 020

Episode Date: October 16, 2015

Cheyenne, Wyoming: Steven Rinella talks wildlife politics with Wyoming Governor Matt Mead, policy advisers Nephi Cole and David Willms, retired SEAL officer Rorke Denver, and the Latvian Lover, a.k.a., Janis Putelis. Subjects include: the death by hanging of the stock detective Tom Horn; Rorke Denver’s next book; Governor Mead’s family history as Wyoming ranchers; The One Shot Challenge; the Endangered Species Act and its impact on wildlife management; Grey Wolves; the litigious nature of ESA judgments; why elk aren’t considered endangered species; the 2010 attempt to delist the grizzly bear and what’s happened since then; sage grouse; why all people should seek to expand their worldview; getting sprayed by a skunk compared to getting sprayed by bear spray; Rorke's elk hunt; and Matt Rinella's vanished llama. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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for almost immediate broadcast in the governor's mansion in cheyenne wyoming um this town is uh the place where tom horn drew his last breath you guys familiar with tom horn we are yeah tom i wrote about tom horn one time and tom horn was this guy who got kind of caught up in the wrong century he was a livestock detective in the late 1800s and he developed a methodology that wasn't as acceptable in the early 1900s and got himself into a whole bunch of trouble was the last man legally hung in Wyoming. Interesting, ultimately tragic tale, but don't steal cattle is the moral of the story there. And if someone does take your cow, be calm, be calm and getting it back. we're joined we have very special guests

we have the governor of wyoming governor matt mead and we're joined as well by nephi cole and dave wilms who are natural resource policy advisors rourke denver's here people who've watched the media television show will know Rourke, author of Damn Few, Making of the Modern Seal Warrior. Author of a, you just put the finishing touches on another book? Just this week. Really? Yeah. Can you tell us what it's called?

It's a little bit of a fight yet, but I think it's going to be called Worth Dying For. When is it coming out? Hopefully spring of 16. So Worth Dying For, A navy seal's call to a nation i think uh everyone in this room is going to enjoy it hopefully that's tight that's enticing yeah and joined also by uh by yannis van yanni vans wall who tell us um and we're gonna talk today i'm sure a lot of stuff will come up but particularly i and we're going to talk today. I'm sure a lot of stuff will come up, but particularly I want, we're going to talk about a handful of wildlife issues.

And what's cool about being able to do this in Wyoming is the governor, Wyoming, who's sitting here to my right has what I would consider to be the good luck of governing in a state where you get to think about and deal with wildlife on a daily basis. Well, thanks for being here, Steve. And Rourke, what a privilege to have you here as well. It's a good day from the governor's mansion in Wyoming to have you both here. Appreciate you making the travels. So this morning, just to highlight a little earlier what you said there,

I started, my wife and I have a ranch about 90 miles from here. It's on the Colorado-Wyoming border. I love to get up early in the morning. This morning we were able to see moose. We were able to see deer. But the ranch is one of the holiest ranches in Wyoming. We've had it for about 15 years. But the guy that started the ranch is N.K. Boswell.

And N.K. Boswell, there's a couple of books on him. One's called Frontier Lawman. And he was a legendary lawman in the territory of Wyoming. And in the barn that we still have, reportedly there was two horse thieves hung from that barn. Is that right? Yeah. Cattle rustling and stealing horses was not a good deal back in the day. Yeah.

So glad to have you both here and eager to talk about wildlife issues. So thank you. Yeah. For starters, you grew up in Wyoming in a ranching family in the Grand Teton area, right? Yeah. My great-grandparents homesteaded in Teton County in Jackson, commonly called Jackson Hole. Homesteaded there?

Homesteaded there. Is that right? So my great-grandparents, grandparents, parents, and now my brother and my sister and I, we're all in the ranching business, although I have this temporary job in politics, but we'll get back to ranching. Do they still work that same land now?

Yeah, my brother runs the family ranch there. And it's, you know, I don't want to talk about wildlife, but it's a cattle ranch. And my brother and his wife still raise cattle there, as did my great-grandparents and so on and so forth. And I recall, you know, growing up, Granddad, when we were eating beef at dinner or something, he would talk about what a luxury it is. And he said, you know, when we were growing up, we never got to eat beef, even though there were cattle ranchers, because that was for people who could afford beef. That's for sale, yeah. And he said, we lived on elk. Yeah.

Now, you know, now people look at it like that they were this is the higher dollar item um do you do some hunting still even though you have obviously a lot of demands on your time you recently were involved in the in the one shot challenge i think you were weren't you the first guy talking about one shot challenge i have a uh i have a friend we'll talk about it at some other point that just tried to grab me another uh a seal seal sniper buddy of mine to come up and compete in that competition and are still talking about for next year so i think i would love to colorado uh i need help i saw the scoreboard no no no it wasn't was the only team all right can you do governor do you mind breaking down with the one shot

challenges no i i don't i i guess start on, we would love to have you on a team. Let me just say, I think it was three years ago for the first time, the one-shot, which is limited to eight teams, three persons on a team. For the first time, I had a wounded warriors team. And incredible, because these guys showed up, and one of the guys had a uh open sights iron sights and with the day before the hunt you go to the range and you have these little competitions and i knew we were in trouble because i couldn't even see what he was looking at with my scope my

fancy scope and he's hitting this thing and it couldn't have been a better story they they won the whole thing and so and every year since then we've had a wounded water team but yeah so the one shot is um it's the 75th year uh this year's the 75th anniversary the one shot uh there's been some remarkable people that have participated in it's co-hosted by colorado and wyoming and there's a friendly competition between the two states on uh who does better goals about fishing game agencies, right? Well, it's done by Wyoming and the Shoshone tribe, but it's always been the partnership between Colorado and Wyoming. In other words, the Wyoming governor and the Colorado governor each get to have their own team,

and so it creates some fun competition. And it's a timed event. It's not a trophy hunt. In other words, you see how first you got a hit, and you truly only get one shot. Now, if you wound your animal and it doesn't go down, you're required to take a second shot, then you're out of the competition. That's a miss. That's a miss. So it's how quickly your three teammates can get an antelope with one shot. No rests allowed unless God put it there. If you're lucky enough to be on a brush or a rock where your shot is,

then you can use that. Can't use a sling, can't use a rest. And for a lot of hunters, you know, they're very good hunters. They're used to using artificial rests, and it creates a little more dynamic when it's one shot no rest time to vent so we had a good year this year two out of our three teammates hit I was my third teammate was a Colorado guy Todd Helton and he came up and he was very into it and he hit his antelope but it didn't go down right away so he had to take a second shot. So it was the Colorado guy that spoiled it for you.

You know, Giannis identifies very strong with Colorado. He kind of came of age in Colorado. Rourke now, I don't know if Rourke, people know where he lives. Rourke spends time in Colorado. So who was the winner, though? The winner, well, I got to, because before I was the winner though the winner uh well i i gotta because i before i announced the winner here i want to tell you that uh so governor hickenlooper has been great about this and so his first year in the event which is my first year he was so impressed with the event he put together a traveling trophy which is from colorado silver and wyoming gold And a very nice gesture. He's a great sport on the whole deal.

But since the first year he made this, so five years ago, it's never left Wyoming's borders. So having said that, the Colorado team, there was a Colorado team called Mile High Shooters, and all three hit, and so they won this year. So Colorado did well that way absolutely i like that it promotes um taking your time and making a shot yeah you know it's it's and i tell you know when people who haven't hunted before they're like you know any advice i'm like

one is you're gonna get on antelope there's no question about there's to get on antelope. There's no question about it. There's a lot of antelope. Two is you've got to be patient and take your time. Now, there's been, like last year, I didn't follow my own advice. I was on antelope like within five minutes, and I'm embarrassed to say how close it was. It was one of those there's no way to miss. I shot, and the antelope didn't even flinch and so this year I did I was very patient it took me about um you know a little over five hours to find the shot that I wanted I had some other shots but

I just you know you want to make sure so yeah and the guides are great you know they um they let you take the time and be patient and make sure you make a good, clean shot that puts the animal down. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join our northern brothers. You're irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking a high-end titty there, OnX is now in Canada.

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Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. So we do need to move on eventually, but how's this deal now, Rourke? I had a professional speaking event that actually connected me to a gas oil firm. The CEO of the company keeps a home in Jackson, and he called me about it. I'd never heard of the competition before, and he said, you've got to look this up. Go to the website. I checked it out. And so he wants to, I think, if I understand correctly, they get to sponsor and kind of bid into the process or apply to be a team in the competition.

And he asked me, he said, you know anybody that shoots state? And I said, I know a few people that can do that. So we thought we might try and put a team together. So we missed this year. I think you want to try and do it next year based on this podcast. Maybe I've got another avenue into the competition. So life's looking good for the one-shot right now. Well, Rourke, we love having good shooters on the team.

I believe it. I believe it. One of the things that really makes the hunt special is I get to choose one teammate, and then the association, the one-shot association, chooses a local guide. And a lot of these local guys, Rourke, have been on. They've volunteered for 25 30 years and so steve when they get their chance to hunt you know i feel pressure but those guys it's a one-time once-in-a-lifetime deal for them yeah and everybody in that town knows i mean they go back hey i see your uncle hit your your grandfather hit. What happened to you?

And so it's a lot of pressure, but it adds so much to it to have those local people who volunteered. I talked to a guy today, or last, this year on the hunt, who's been volunteering for 45 years at that event. And so it's a very special event that way. And then when those guides get their chance, I mean, you know, everybody feels sort of the pressure, but those guides, it's a big, big deal. Did you say they've been doing it for 75 years? 75 years. This is the 75th anniversary. So it's a great tradition.

And you see, you know, I participate in the Grand National Quail Hunt when I can. That came out of the one-shot. A lot of these competitions around the country were patterned after the one-shot antelope hunt. Okay, I want to jump in. I don't want to waste a bunch of time here. I want to jump into, let's start out by talking about the ESA. Now, for hunters, fishermen, people who like to spend time outdoors, kind of the quickest avenue for you to get into thinking about the ESA,

Endangered Species Act, will be to kind of think about some of these things that are in the news constantly for the last, or some of these species that are in the news constantly for the last decade. And in particular, we'll kind of focus on three big charismatic critters. When you're hearing about grizzly bears and what we're going to do with grizzly bears and grizzly bear management, the gray wolf, all the news constantly coming out of the northern Great Lakes, the greater Yellowstone area, northern Rockies, about gray wolves,

how we're going to manage, if we're going to manage gray wolves. And then most recently, all things you've been hearing about or should have been hearing about with the sage grouse, what we're going to do about sage grouse, how are we going to, how were we going to go about preventing the collapse of this? These are all animals that are traditionally game animals, things that have been hunted for, will be hunted for again. And I want to lay a little bit of groundwork on what the ESA is

just so people can kind of get what we're talking about when we start talking about where the ESA stands right now and some problems that are occurring around it. So this goes back longer than I've been alive. Nixon signed the ESA in. in what was meant to do is meant to save species that were being uh driven to extinction through through factors involving economic growth and development okay so human caused things and at the time in the 70s and and prior to that we were having almost like an epidemic of near extinctions.

And it was, when they came in with the ESA, is that we were going to prevent these things at whatever cost necessary. And by that, I mean like whatever economic cost to try to halt these things. It's administered by two agencies. So the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and then NOAA, or National Oceanic

and Atmospheric Administration. Kind of in your day-to-day existence, you definitely have a lot more to do with U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Like if you're a waterfowl hunter, you know, waterfowl is managed on federal and state level. That's U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that plays a big part in waterfowl management and other migratory things. 99% they say, this is a debatable thing, but it's argued that 99% of the animals that have been listed, 99% of the animals that have been listed have been saved from extinction. Now, that doesn't mean that the act necessarily saved them from extinction, but 99% of the things that have been listed still exist on Earth. All right.

When an animal gets listing, it gets a lot of protections for it and its habitat, and it can curtail and change human behaviors. When something would get removed from the list, it's because a handful of criteria are met where you have the population has reached stability and growth you've removed or put a control on the things that were threatening in the first place and then you have the stability of habitat quality we list things that aren't just in the u.s so there's 2 000 species that have esa protection and domestic. About 60 have been delisted. 30 of the species that have gotten protection have been delisted due to outright recovery.

10 have been delisted due to extinction, though the bulk of those were probably already extinct when they got listing. We knew that there might be some left. There's this bird, for instance, ivory-billed woodpecker. For a long time, it was like, maybe it's not extinct, maybe it exists somewhere. Now it's relatively certain the bird's gone.

It could have been extinct at the time of listing and you have things like that happen. And then a handful of things were delisted because researchers revealed that the thing didn't belong there in the first place, either because they discovered a new population. So they thought that they had some very limited number of an animal or a bird discovered it.

In fact, it inhabits these areas. We didn't realize it inhabited. It's not at risk of genetic extinction, so's pulled off or as happens sometimes you get better data and you learn that you were wrong animals are very hard to count even something as big as a grizzly bear you cannot get people to agree on population estimates because it's hard to count animals so sometimes new data will come and a thing will get delisted. Some examples of things that you'd find on the endangered species list, bald eagle, whooping crane, peregrine falcon, key deer, gray wolf, red wolf, black-footed ferret,

southern sea otter. Some quick pros and cons. A pro of the Endangered Species Act, if someone was sitting here arguing the pros of the Endangered Species Act. If someone was sitting here arguing the pros of the Endangered Species Act, they'd be like, hey, it works. 30 of the species that have gotten listing have recovered. If someone was here to argue the cons, they would say only 30? We've had 2,000 listed, so you've recovered 1% over the 30-year history of the Endangered Species Act. You've got 1% recovery. So it's not entirely working.

That's sort of a general background. I want to focus in on, are one of you guys here comfortable giving a brief synopsis, focused on Wyoming, to just kind of bring listeners up to speed on what has happened with the rollerco ride of gray wolf listing do you listing yeah well i can take a crack at it first uh steve great summary of the endangered species act uh as you said 1973 uh president nixon signed into law and the intent uh to save those species that are

threatened or endangered you know people don't disagree with that. I think particularly here in the West, we value wildlife. It adds to our quality of life. But the gray wolf is a good example of what, in my mind, is not working with the Endangered Species Act. Before I came into office, the state had struggled with this issue for many years, about a decade, on what to do with the gray wolf, including the fact that, remember that the gray wolf was including the fact that, remember, that the gray wolf was reintroduced into Yellowstone.

In other words, we went and grabbed a herd of gray wolves and put them in Yellowstone. So they're not worldwide. They're not this species that is on the verge of extinction. I mean, they were available. We put them in Yellowstone. And they are tremendous predators. And when you put them in Yellowstone, they are tremendous predators and when you put them in yellowstone which is national park next to another national park grand tito national park where you have all these game species that have you know great levels of protection they're naturally going to thrive and they have and so when i came into office you know we wanted them delisted we

wanted them to be listed one because the population showed that they are more than stable. Two, when you have runaway population of predators, it hurts other game species, for example, deer, moose, elk. It causes conflict with livestock, sheep, and cattle in particular. And so we wanted to gain a balance. We didn't want to wipe them out. We wanted to say, you know, how can we find an appropriate balance? And I worked directly one-on-one with Secretary of Interior Salazar on that issue. We wanted to gain a balance. We didn't want to wipe them out. We wanted to say, you know, how can we find an appropriate balance? And I worked directly one-on-one with Secretary of Interior Salazar on that issue, along with the Director of the Fish and Wildlife Service,

along with ranchers, conservation groups, environmental groups, and we came up with a plan that we felt very comfortable was going to provide the protection needed for the wolves, but bring into balance and the ability for the state of Wyoming to manage that which belongs to the state of Wyoming, which is our wildlife. And the secretary signed off on it, Fish and Wildlife signed off on it, I signed off on it, and it worked. In fact, in the time it was in place, we saw the wolf population remain very stable, even though we had a hunting season. And then a year and a half or two years after the fact, as always happens on these things, you know, we were sued. And then two years later, a court in Washington, D.C. said, no question the wolves have recovered, but we don't like your plan.

And so they threw out the plan. So now we're still in court on it. We'll see what happens at the appellate court level. But what this does is it leads to a lot of consternation and some pushback on what should be a good news story. The Endangered Species Act shouldn't be a bad news story. And you've heard and I've heard, and we don't subscribe to this, but this theory of shoot, shovel, and shut up, and that's because, in part, people get so frustrated with trying to figure out what do we need to do to actually recover a species, how do we reach the finish line, how do we get a species off the list

after we have these great conservation efforts. And so that's, I think the the gray wolf in particular and i'm more familiar with wyoming although i know this isn't just a wyoming story it certainly has been a story in idaho and montana and minnesota and other parts of the country but when a species is more than fully recovered you reach an agreement with all those people who sign off on these things, including the Secretary of Interior, and you still can't get it delisted, that's a problem. And it's a problem not only for the frustration it causes, but it's a problem because if we're focusing time, effort, and money on species that clearly have recovered, what species are we forgetting about and we're not spending time on so it's not only bad

in terms of what it causes uh you know it's uncertainty in terms of our industry and businesses it's bad for species we're focusing you know we've won the game with wolves we should we should declare victory and we should go try to find the species that actually do need help and focus on that but that's the question I've always had about this. They had laid out, at the time of the wolf reintroduction, it was laid out like what was an acceptable recovery. I mean, it was spelled out numerically. Am I right?

I mean, we knew what recovery would look like, and that was passed a long time ago. The same with grizzly bears, I might add. We've reached what would be recovery. it's a moving goal post i think what's that what's at stake um and i'm talking to listeners more than you governor what's at stake i think with with something like the endangered species act because i think that it winds up losing validity in the popular mind if it's seen as something that is a one-way road and not a tool i mean this is a horrible parallel but i mean you know if you have a problem and you go into the hospital and your problem gets better you go back home it would be like oh no you're going to stay here now and live at this hospital because you had that problem that one time.

And I think that that's a problem we're running into with the gray wolf delisting is you have you've had a lot of people put a ton of time and energy into recovering this thing. And now I don't know. I think it's just I think it might be sort of an emotional thing where people have a hard time relinquishing the idea and turning it to state management. And the thing that everyone should realize is that game generally, like wildlife is generally administered on a state level. So like here in Wyoming, for instance, if you have an elk, right, and he's on Yeltsin National Park, and he jumps a fence and comes on to National Forest Land in Wyoming, and then he jumps another fence and he's on state land, and he jumps a fence and he's on Yellowstone National Park, and he jumps a fence and comes on to National Forest Land in Wyoming. And then he jumps another fence, and he's on state land. He jumps a fence, he's on county land. Then he jumps a fence, and he's in a subdivision.

That elk has, throughout his journeys there, been property, technically speaking, he's been property of the state of Wyoming. Various entities might control access to the thing, but the animal's owned by the state and is administered by the state. So when we talk about taking wolves or grizzly bears and handing them to the state, it's not like this novel experiment. You're putting it like you guys manage.

We manage all the wildlife. You manage 11 big game species. Right, right. I think, yeah, I kind of remember the other day, I was 10 or 11 big game species are managed by the state of Wyoming in the state of Wyoming. So when people hear that you're going to let a state draw up a management plan for a species,

I think that some people, I don't mean this as an insult, because I've lived in many urban areas. I think a lot of times people in urban areas, they have concerns that they know about. They have concerns that affect their daily lives lives and they just don't have the time and energy and inclination to study up in this kind of stuff that doesn't impact them daily when they hear that you're going to give management over to a state i think that they feel like somehow something strange is happening right rather than you're returning to a norm right you

know yeah that's a great point i mean the states do manage wildlife and uh we have the expertise in it we have the manpower and we put the resources to it and so you're exactly right what is out of the norm now is to have species that are not managed by the state for example wolves and grizzly bears and it's you know part of the frustration is on the recovery plan for the wolves, it's the state putting in the money and the time to get it done. The Fish and Wildlife Service puts in money as well. But we get sued by groups who don't put money on the ground to conserve the species. They put money in the lawyers' pockets and in the courtrooms. And so, you know, just the millions that we have spent to make sure we have a very strong viable wolf population that shows that it's more than recovered, you know,

that is properly on the state's lap. But we don't want just the burden of it. We want to be able to manage in a way in coordination and in harmony with the rest of the wildlife that the state is required to and wants to manage. From your perspective as someone who's dealing with the ESA nonstop and dealing with the wolf issue, and I want to talk about the grizzly bear issue as well, but dealing with this, what are some things, like what do you feel are some things that could be done to make the process less, like, you hear the word litigious, litigious thrown around all the time, where it becomes, you know, these issues become these, like, a beach ball getting bounced back and forth in courts, and there's no resolution. I mean, this has been, how long this has been going on like we've like wolves have been genetically recovered in this area for a long time a decade or more yeah and there's still no end in sight to this i mean how would you ever do you guys have ideas you have thoughts about how someone would ever get it to be where there was just a an actual end yeah to the debate

yeah what would that even look like? Well, I think there's a couple things. One is I think it's easier to figure out where the goalpost is and how to get to the end by how you start the process. You know, right now to list a species is a relatively easy thing. I mean, the joke is you can do it on the back of an app. You can send it to the Fish and Wildlife Service and you're on the list. And they already have 600-plus on the list at the Fish and Wildlife Service.

So here's some things that would be better. One is you can only list one species at a time. In other words, not multiple listings. I want to have all these things on the list. One species, before you do that, it requires state notification. It requires the data that the states have because we do have data. We do have the expertise. In other words, don't just throw something out there.

Go ahead and look at what the science shows you. Look at one species, what the science shows you. Give the states notice, time for us to input, so that when it hits the Fish and Wildlife Services desk, they have a proper vetting process. In other words, it's a package. They can look at it. They can make quicker decisions, more full decisions,

rather than, hey, we're going to throw this out there, see if it sticks, go through years of sort of discovery on what the science is there, then get into the court system, so on and so forth. In other words, there has to be, in my mind, a greater threshold before you even get on the list so that we don't waste time, we don't waste money looking at species that shouldn't be on there. I just interrupted you real quick. Sorry. time we don't waste money looking at species that shouldn't be on there but i just interrupt you a little quick sorry isn't it true that they're the fish and wildlife service is constantly getting sued because we're not listing things though they are they are and uh that's why just if i can interject here i i think the um uh as you know as my initiative as chairman of the western government

association to see what improvements we can make to the Endangered Species Act. And if you talk to the Fish and Wildlife Service now, depending upon who you talk to, I think they recognize some of their rules and regulations would help offset that challenge that they face immediately by not listing. And also, I believe there's an opportunity for some statutory changes that would also help support what Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to do and trying to do it in a proper way. So I know I interrupted you, but continue on with the, unless you're done, about ideas and ways in which you would streamline the process. Are you saying that you could remedy the situation up front by, I would imagine too, by clarifying the goals

of the listing? I think clarifying the goals will certainly help. And what we're trying to do with my Western Governors Initiative is around the West, get ideas and input from all groups, sportsmen, wildlife groups, environmental groups, to see what we think we could do. Because reaching that goalpost, knowing how how to get there what is a recovery plan is important not just to reach the goal post but if you say these five things or these 20 things will help preserve a species i want to know what it is because we want to do that it's the right thing to do to preserve the species if it's just this nebulous keep trying this shotgun approach

and hope someday a court agrees with you then if you do get a court to agree with you don't even know if you've done the right things necessary for the species so anything we could do beforehand to say you know here's how you go about this and here's how you reach the goal line that not only is better for species and better for businesses and industries but it also allows us to go to the next step to the next species and start getting these off the list. Because when you only have, since 1973, a little more than 1% who've ever gone on the list, off the list, that's the flip side of that 99%. Only 1% or so has ever gotten

off the list. We're just adding to the list. What are we doing to recovery species? Every time there's a listing, it should be viewed as a failure. Every time there's a recovery and a species, a sound that should be celebrated as a victory and we should move on to the next species. You know, it's funny because I remember with the bald eagle, it was treated as a victory. It was. It was a celebrate. It's great. It was a great news story. It's just boggled my mind the way that people now view and look at and the way that achievement was reached that you just, I guess that animal sparks different emotions

than what's going on with the wolf thing where it's that so many people, there's just a tremendous reluctance to say, okay, in this biome, in this biome, we've achieved recovery. No one's arguing that you've achieved it across the whole thing, but I'll point out 90% of elk. Like we're not having a conversation right now about elk being endangered species. 90% of elk habitat at the time of European contact has no elk,

has no elk on it right now. So we're able to discuss animals in terms of, with a level of specific, I don't know if regionality is a word, but with specific regionality. Elk are doing fantastic in many places. They're not doing fantastic in the southern portion of my home state of Michigan, which is absent of them. But people can in that way comprehend like, okay, yeah, you're hunting elk here, even

though they're absent here. But I think in a way that they look at the wolf issue and they have a hard time fathoming that yes, we have certain pockets where we've achieved objective. And that isn't commenting on where we're at in Arizona, in New Mexico. I think that's another problem. And I'd be curious from you guys, have you found that drawing those borders in terms of state and national,

is that cumbersome? Because I know that when you guys manage game, how many game units is Wyoming divided into? Many. Depends on the species. I was recently hunting grizzly bears in British Columbia British Columbia has British Columbia

divided into 60 management units so they're able to make very precise decisions well basically one 60th of the province at a time make very precise decisions about management goals some of those places have hunting

some don't reflected by what's going on on the ground make very precise decisions about management goals. Some of those places have hunting, some don't, reflected by what's going on on the ground in those specific locations. And I think that that's a huge hang-up that people have had about, and I want to touch on grizzly bears too, a big hang-up people have had on grizzly bears is, yes, in some areas there's a lot of work that needs to be done. In some areas we've achieved goal. Why not say that it's achieved here and then, like you said, move on to some of the areas that haven't?

Right. I think it's, you know, grizzly bears and wolves are a good example. It's, you know, if we did everything exactly right in Wyoming with regard to wolves and grizzly bears, but Montana and Idaho were not, they would still be listed. So it's not just jurisdiction by by state or county it's you know the area as you pointed out and so in this area montana idaho wyoming those three states have to do a good job for that yellowstone ecosystem population on managing the wolves and so but in that region we know that the bears have more than fully recovered. And so does that mean we have to go until there's a sufficient amount of bears around Denver metropolitan area? I don't think so.

I mean, you have to understand where there's the habitat for these populations and then make sure they're doing well in those areas where there's proper habitat for them. So keeping in mind some of these things we're talking about, do you mind doing a similar breakdown you did with wolves on the grizzly bear issue and where it stands and what it might mean for outdoorsmen and people beyond Wyoming, but certainly inclusive of Wyoming? Yeah, well, when we had the wolves delisted, you know, I view that as a great victory, not only for us as a state, but frankly, for the species, the wolves. And as soon as that was done, we had developed through that process a good factual working relationship with the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Secretary of Interior.

And so as soon as that was completed, I wrote the Secretary a letter and said, you know, now grizzly bears need to be delisted. And, in fact, I had gotten some letters about that time saying, hey, thanks for your efforts on the wolves, but frankly grizzlies are a more serious problem in terms of conflict, in terms of not having the balance in the wildlife in the greater Yellowstone area. So we got on it right away, and here we are three, four years later, and we see that the grizzly bears are not delisted.

In 2010, there was an attempt to delist the grizzly bears. And the court, as they do, say, well, it's pointed out to us that whitebark pine population's going down that habitat, and that's one of the food sources for grizzly bears, and therefore we're not going to approve the delisting because we're concerned that they're not going to have the food sources. And what we've shown since that court decision is the whitebark pine has been going down in terms of available whitebark pine. Grizzly bear population has been inversely going up.

Grizzly bears, as you know, probably better than I firsthand, they are good eaters and they can eat just about anything. And the grizzly bear population has continued to go up. And so as those numbers have gone up, despite the whitebark pine not being as prevalent, again, we're at this point where there's no question it should be delisted. And I made that clear to Secretary Salazar in, I think it was 2011. And we're hopeful now, perhaps at the end of this year, that we can actually make some good movement on that.

If that happens, do you feel that it'll turn into the same never-ending cycle of, like, retributional lawsuit? Yeah, we're worried about it because that's the pattern we see. And, you know, I understand. I mean, people have, you know, people get emotional about specific species. You know, you don't hear people worrying about carp. You don't hear them worrying about rattlesnakes. But there are some species that

they get very concerned about in grizzly bears or wolves because they view it beyond just the individual species and it's iconic of the West and iconic of people put spiritual value on some of those species. I appreciate that they have that perspective, but they also need to know for the benefit of those species,

the best way for their survival is one, public support, two, to have the state manage them, and three, have them in an equilibrium fashion coexist with the other species uh because i can tell you that if you know grizzly bears and wolves wipe out the entire moose population or uh elk population and i'm not saying that's happening but if that happened i think it's some this this is me talking from like just observation and talking to many people i think in some areas with moose it's it's precarious almost it is well in some areas we we see that i mean it's my exaggerated point was if they wipe them all out yeah that's what that's what i'm saying it's not happening but there's no question we see the moose population declining we see uh the elk uh being struggling we see uh also you know

uh you know the the numbers of human conflict and the number of human deaths by grizzly bears is going up. I mean, it's not a big number, but the rate is an exponential growth rate. And you talk to hunters, and maybe you've seen this as well, the gunshot is a dinner bell. They hear a gunshot, and that's

why people want to hunt with suppressors, in part, because when they hear the grizzly bears hear the gunshot go off, that means there's a gut pile there. That means there's food there. And so you see the tragedy of people getting killed more and more by grizzly bears. So I think there is in all this, you have to have the balance. And in today's world, you also have to have management. And as you pointed out rightfully

that historically and rightfully is in the state's hands hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or sweepstakes and our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in

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You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more as a special offer you can get a free three months to try on x out if you visit on x maps.com slash meet on x maps.com slash meet welcome to the to the on x club y'all you know we've touched on a couple things of things that i would think of as being undecided um i think a lot of people are dissatisfied with how things have gone there's no end in sight it's been kind of a like a systemic failure i would say with with my personal

opinion about wolf and grizzly management just how it's gone the way those animals have been used um as sort of pawns in the game about what our relationship is with the natural world but last week i think it was a week ago and i might lost track of time there was a case where you know we had the greater sage grouse was being considered for Endangered Species Act protection. A lot of people agreed that had they gotten that level of protection, and they're an animal of the sage flats, had they gotten that protection, it would have had huge economic implications. It would have had implications for absolutely for hunters and

fishermen land managers of all sort industry across the board it would have had big implications for them because had they gotten esa listing it would have really had um it would have changed business in quite a few states six or seven states um and that way the esa had teeth because people knew what to be afraid of but rather than going down the road of listing or just acting like this is an inevitable thing a bunch of conservation groups i know governor your own office the offices the governor's offices of several other states really pulled together and did a dramatic turnaround on that bird in habitat as well. Can you talk a little bit about how that battle kind of took shape and how it reached what seems to be like resolution?

And I know now it might not be. The lawsuits will get rolling. But do you mind talking a little bit about kind of where your stance on that has been and what kind of work you guys have done there yeah well the um you're absolutely right if the sage grouse would have been listed it would have affected uh uh many states uh in a substantial way but the west and and and frankly the country in there i say the country because you know if the bird wouldn't have been listed in wyoming and wyoming as you probably know exports more energy than any other state uh oil gas coal uranium uh we're really big in that uh we export more coal than any other state had the bird been listed you look at

historical range where the bird not necessarily is now but where it has ever been and we looked at that and it would have virtually shut down all the coal mining in the state. And that coal mining, you say, well, that's great for Wyoming, but we supply coal to over 30 states, and they get the benefit of low-cost energy from that coal. The same with the oil and the same with gas. With what we were able to work out, rather than having virtually 80% of the coal shut down, now we've managed it so the coal is not shut down. The same with oil and gas.

About 66% of the oil and gas production when it was shut down. Now it's limited to 5%. So that's on the good industry news front. But on the wildlife front, my predecessor, Governor Friedenthal, did a very good job putting together diverse groups. I mean, you have Audubon Society out there with ranchers, with industry folks, trying to figure out how to go about doing this, how to not shut the state down, but at the same time, make sure you preserve the habitat for sage-grouse so that we can know that they're going to be viable.

And so this work started before I came in office and continued with my great staff while I've been in office in cooperation with Fish and Wildlife Service, the Secretary's office, many conservation groups, as I said, ranchers. And we came to a point, as you pointed out, where the Fish and Wildlife Service says, because of the plans that we have in place, that is the states, that the bird is not warranted to be listed. And this is a great victory, but it is not. Certainly the teeth was in the Endangered Species Act, but what we did, the model that we have set up here,

is not because of the Endangered Species Act. It's because we're trying to find answers. We're trying to preserve habitat. We're trying to preserve habitat. We're trying to preserve species, and we're trying to do it in a way that doesn't shut down their states. We're not a zoo. I mean, we have to put food on the table like any other state. And so in terms of that bird not being listed, I think it's not only a great victory for the bird, but hopefully, to answer your earlier question, it is a model on how to go forward where you can reach the finish line with multiple diverse interests coming together and saying, we've got to find an answer.

It's good for the species, and it's good for business. So I'm hoping, one, that it doesn't get thrown out by the courts, and then two, that we can use it to address other species on a grand scale. The good news on the sage-grouse is that by conserving that habitat, we know it's also going to help other species that rely upon the same habitat the sage-grouse do that that's that issue might be one of the more complicated ones that i've followed because i when i was first came when i was first introduced to the to the sage grouse issue it was through a friend of mine who's a biologist with uh the theodore roosevelt conservation partnership and he came forward was talking about how catastrophic he felt that listing was going to be and so it. And so it was kind of funny. I think a lot of people have a hard time sort of wrapping their heads around the idea

that here's a guy from a conservation organization saying, no, no, no, this isn't the best thing. This isn't the best thing. Listing isn't the best thing for the ESA. Listing isn't the best thing for land managers. It's going to bring a lot of animosity. This guy continued to hunt sage-grouse through the whole thing. Right. Because he was like, it's going to bring a lot of animosity this guy continued to hunt sage grouse through the whole thing right you know because he was like it's not a hunting issue like i think

that hunting is it has big economic factors it incentivizes people on land issues and you wind up where if you had to go and explain this to someone completely outside of this world you have a very difficult time going um it's in the better interest to the bird to not get listing and it's in the better interest of the bird for sportsmen to maintain or renewed albeit very limited through the legal means interest in pursuing this bird right and it's going to keep this bird sort of woven into the culture of the west and have it not become a spotted owl right right, right. You know. I think that is such an important point you make because it invests people in seeing these species are taken care of.

And, you know, people would be surprised if you said, you know, how many sage-grouse are we talking about? What are we down to, 1,000 or 5,000? Well, in Wyoming alone, there's an excess of 100,000 of these birds. And we do have a hunting season on them. And people say, how do you have a hunting season? Well, we look at the risks to sage-grouse, and a hunting season is not a risk to the sage-grouse because we have such a healthy, robust population. But I think it's one of the reasons I think, you know, on a broader scale, it's so important to recognize the value in hunting and the conservation that comes from hunting.

Not only for those who hunt, but it is the sportsmen who put so much back into seeing species, whether it's fish or wildlife, maintain these healthy populations. It's why groups like the Audubon society were leading our charge and trying to get us to this point because they saw that in the broad picture it would be better for the species not to be listed yeah what do you feel now now when people look at the array and it's a complex arrangement are you guys are you comfortable trying trying to like sum up what what the recovery i know it's even called a recovery plan, but now we have a quarter million, we're looking at a quarter million birds in the sagebrush areas of the West.

But is there, like, how would you sum up, like, what the plan is? Well, I guess at the core of it in Wyoming is we have core areas, in other words, where there's high concentration of the bird. And in those areas, there is much greater restriction than outside those areas. That's one. And then two, if there's a disturbance to a core area where there's multiple leks, for example, you have to offset that disturbance in some way somewhere else that will benefit the bird. So the key to the plan is the sage-grouse core areas where we recognize there's high concentration of birds and that we have to be extra careful in those areas with what we do

with any type of development. But there's areas outside there that would have little or no effect and those are the areas say hey you want to put in a new housing development or you have a chance for an oil and gas development because it's outside of those areas that would have much impact on their habitat, we can go ahead and do that as long as we're extra careful in these areas where there's a concentration of birds. And this quarry strategy we know is working.

Now, there's a lot of variables that go into population, as you know, but we will point out that since 2013, the increase in the male leks which is how we count birds as best as we can has gone up exponentially just in wyoming for example the males from increased greatly in 2014 and from 2014 to 2015 over 50 percent increase now fires can change that you know bad weather can change that but the core area strategy is working yeah that's a interesting thing you bring up like the fires and weather is anyone who pays attention to who follows upland birds in any way knows just the implications of of drought an ill-timed hail stormorm can put you into serious trouble.

So I imagine now there's a lot of people sitting around, will probably during the laying time for the greater sage grouse be watching the weather very carefully because you could numerically diminish the bird without anything happening to habitat. You could also be like, okay, now we're back down to, for factors completely beyond our control, down to a dangerous spot. All right, land and water conservation fund. We'll also be like, okay, now we're back down for factors completely beyond our control. Right.

Down to a dangerous spot. All right. Land and water conservation fund. Can we ask you about this as well? We got Nephi here. He's an expert on this. That was what he majored in in college, or at least that's what he told me. Just put it right now.

This is one of the most important things, I think, that affect people who like to spend time outdoors that they've never heard of. I'm going to do a similar run down here just to get people up to speed. It's been around since 1965. What happens is offshore drilling, offshore oil drilling. It's occurring on what would be land. It's like land owned by the American populace, but it's not deeded to any particular entity. It's just like government land.

And when people go and extract oil off there, they're essentially paying a fee to the American people for the ability to extract that oil. Some of that money is put toward grants and matching funds to federal and state agencies. And it's earmarked. Its intended purpose is for use in public access and land acquisition.

I'm talking everything from parks, scenic overlooks, beaches, mountain ranges, you name it. Land and Water Conservation Fund money has secured over 7 million acres of land. This is not taxpayer money. It's money that goes into a federal budget, but it's not coming out of your taxes. It's been renewed one time. The first time they put it in, it was good for 25 years. At the end of that 25 years years it got renewed for another 25 years and it just so happens that if you're alive right now you have to be alive you know during one of

the years when it would need to be renewed and it seems like a no-brainer that it would get renewed but it's stalled um it's hard to say there are people who don. There are people out there who don't like it because they just have a general antipathy toward, I guess, the government owning and managing land for public use. That's at play. But largely, it's just kind of held up in budgetary squabbling. It's a casualty. Nephi, is that fair to say that it's like it not being renewed right now has more to do with just budgetary issues in general than it has to do with the Land and Water Conservation Fund?

You know, it'd be tough for me to talk about what issues specifically, you know, they're talking about on the Hill's relation to it, but it would be fair to say that, you know, as a priority, there's huge bipartisan support for reauthorization of the land and water conservation fund i think what you're running into is people would like to make sure that the original intent of that act is honored you know originally the land and water conservation fund you had about 60 of the money by rule going to the states to make decisions on that and in wyoming that's done things like you know and in every community if you're listening to this you've got a community pool you've got a ballpark you have nature trails you have work that's been done on your you know you've got your river walk you know all those projects are projects that you know

in every state in every community there are lwcf projects boat boat access like if you launch your boat into a river off or you see a little sign like public launch and everything else around there is private that money that landing get donated. And I think it's fair to say that folks right now, you know, at this opportunity when they're talking about reauthorization, they want to have a robust discussion about whether or not the intent of the act is still being met and ensured that it is being met. And I know, you know, Governor Meade and the other governors have weighed in on this and said that that's important, that it's important that there's integrity in funding, that it's important that states have an opportunity to do what we believe that local communities and states do best. Typically, people, whether you're talking about species, whether you're talking about land, the people who live closest to the issues on the ground typically are the people who can come up with the best solutions. They can identify how to spend money in an efficient way you know conservation is a huge priority in wyoming we you know tourism is our number three industry in this state

number two industry i apologize agriculture is our number three industry and uh when people come to wyoming they come here to you know they come here because of the lands that they see. They come here because of our outdoor recreational opportunities. And I think like most of the West, we recognize that conservation is a huge priority to us. And I think it's appropriate that there's a robust discussion on making sure that it's being done the right way. And I think that that's reflected in people's thoughts on land and water conservation fund, both on the amount of bipartisan support for its reauthorization, but also on the fact that some members up on the Hill

want to take a good look at it and want to make sure that it's getting spent in the right way, that the dollars are going to where they should go, and that ultimately states get to innovate with some of that money, get to look at conservation easements themselves, and get to have innovate with some of that money get to look at conservation easements themselves and get to have a say in how that money's spent all right everyone i know you're enjoying the meat eater podcast and you're especially enjoying it because it's free and to keep it that way we got to take a quick break to thank our sponsors what what will happen

if it doesn't get renewed i think you have a short term and a long term. So right now, the money from that, there's a trust and the money's there. And I think, you know, I'm not, that's in the long term. In the long term, the very, very long term, it could go away. In the short term, you know, people are going to continue working with it on, you know, the way that it is. It's interesting when you bring that up. The Endangered Species Act hasn't been reauthorized in

many, many years, but you can see that the Endangered Species Act, it's still there. But it wasn't set to be finite, right? Or was it? I'm not sure. As far as finite, you mean the land and water conservation fund?

No, the land and water conservation fund was good for 25 years and it got renewed for 25 years. So Dave's going to have to jump in here with me on this one. But in general, these acts, they do have a time frame on them. They have a, I don't know if sunset's the right word because the act doesn't go away, but they have a situation where there's an anticipated date where you're going to come back and take a look at it.

If changes are not made, it continues status quo. But when that date hits, it's an opportunity to take a look at those acts and to see that was the way that they were designed, is that there would be changes to them, that as we grow as a nation, we update those things for the future so do you think it's going to get do you think it'll i know it's hard to predict this but will that funding come back and we'll continue to be able to make improvements with public access and do these kind of things i think conservation is too important to everybody in the nation that for for people not to to work on that issue and

i don't think any of us sitting around this table know exactly what it's going to look like. But I anticipate it being there. Yeah, I hope that people take the time to notify their representatives and let them know how they feel about it. Because like you're saying, it is just a bipartisan issue

that seems to have overwhelming support. And it's important for sportsmen. I just wish they would get it. I hope they get it squared away. I trust they'll get it squared away. Running out of a little bit of time, but I got a couple things. Governor, there's two main things. One, you got to make it that wilderness lands aren't closed to non-resident hunters.

This should be the main thing you work on. Okay, I got it. Hang on, hang on. My crayon's broken. I need a pen. The other thing that would be helpful, to be honest, is if there's a state law that everybody had to buy a hunt to eat t-shirt.

Giannis, do you have any... You've been quiet through this whole thing. You got any observations or questions, Giannis? Not in particular. Giannis and I live the wolf issue nonstop through questions that come in from viewers of the show and listeners and people who are trying to make sense out of something that seems like a pretty complex issue. It is very difficult. I've found it very difficult to explain. My kid the other day asked where planets come from.

It would be easier to explain that than the wolf issue. So you don't have concluding thoughts, to be honest? Oh, I didn't know we were starting on concluding thoughts. Well, yeah. I mean, we have limited time with the governor, and we've used it up. So if you have laid some concluding thoughts, if you have – lay some concluding thoughts. Everybody gets a chance to do concluding thoughts.

It's a tradition here. Does someone else have them right at the tip of their tongue and would like to start? Do you have concluding thoughts? This is a man who hasn't spoken a word yet. Do you have any thoughts? I'm pretty proud of not having anything to say. That means the governor did a great job. The man talking right now used to be the, you were one of the lead lawyers or the lead lawyer for Wyoming Fish and Game?

Yeah, I represented the Wyoming Game and Fish for a number of years. Had some interesting stories. There were some fun stories there, yeah, yeah. Rourke, you got any concluding thoughts? You can take the form of a question. No, I mean, you know, when can take the form of a question no i mean i you know when i when i hear the conversation it does uh it it reminds me of of things we wrestle with in the military and then the thing that i love about this conversation is that you know the state's autonomy throughout

the country i think is such a a critical part of who we are as a country and and that the folks as we're saying the boots on the ground know what's going on in their terrain i mean the the number of times my teammates and i were in some austere inexplicable cultural region in the world that that no one really had good perspective on other than the folks living there and then us that were standing there and trying to communicate that back to a leadership and say, hey, this decision we know needs to be made and then get pushed back or some type of an argument for somebody that's sitting in an it every day, it's unbelievably frustrating to see that those voices aren't the absolute flag bearers because those are the folks that understand it. Those are the ones that are there. So it's been a treat to listen to the governor talk about this within this state.

And I would imagine all the western state governors know the exact same thing. They know what they need. They know what needs to happen in their own backyard, and I think the support needs to be there for it. So those are my thoughts. I understand the frustration. Well put, Rourke. Nephi, concluding thoughts?

You know, I think all of us agree, and I think this is the exciting part when you start talking about these issues. I believe that there's wide consensus for the importance of conservation, wildlife, and opportunities to go out and enjoy it. And I think, you know, talking about these issues, too often I think we let divisiveness rule the day. And I think we have a unique opportunity in America right now. And certainly here in Wyoming, we recognize that opportunity to kind of bring everybody back to the center

and say, hey, let's take a look at these things that are important to all of us and let's make sure that they work and that we project into the future the values that are important to us and that we make sure that our kids have places to recreate, we have healthy healthy wildlife populations and then we have an opportunity to enjoy these things and i think uh that for me has been the exciting you know part and the part

where it's been a privilege to work with the governors because uh i know that that's uh that's consensus around you know the people that i get an opportunity to work with is recognizing that importance and it's just it's a really sharp group and it's a privilege to work on those issues and to work with him on those issues. Yeah. That's one of the, I see that I get this, this will stand in as my concluding thought.

It's two part one, one, um, watching some of these issues. It is nice to see that there are some people out there who are striving for compromise and going for a consensus. I think that the divisiveness around some of these wildlife issues comes down to, and I'm in many ways guilty of this myself,

and I try to correct it all the time. It comes down to where you're putting together your worldview based on very limited conversations that you're having with a very limited group of people. And you end up existing in these little echo chambers. And if people would take the time, and I'm speaking to myself as much as anyone, this is not preaching, but take the time to go and really educate yourselves about issues. Like if we're going to take the gravel thing, really educate yourself about the history of that species,

where that species exists now, where things stand. Get out a map. Try to study the map. Think about population dynamics. Look at numbers. Look at trends. And dig a little deeper than what your buddy at the bar might have told you. It's so hard to do, but it's so rewarding when you take the time to do it.

Governor, you get to conclude with your concluding thoughts. This is a powerful moment. Okay. Well, I'll do my best. Well, I do want to say, starting out, how grateful I am that you all are here and are covering this issue. And, Rourke, it's great to have you here. Thank you for your service. What an honor to have you here with us. Really appreciate that. we can get in those echo chambers, but I do think there is a common perspective that most of us have, and we think about the next generation. And I started this conversation

talking about my great-grandparents, and my great-grandfather used to say in Wyoming, where you find one blade of grass, leave two. And he was a ranch guy, but it's a theme that goes beyond ranching, and it goes to each of us have an obligation to leave the place a little better than we found it and we think about that not only in terms of just our legacy as citizens but we think about it in terms of our our work as parents you

know i want this place to be special for my kids and grandkids and so on so forth and all of you do as well and so conservation is something that is critical and as a state with the first national park and the first national monument you know we take that very seriously in Wyoming and as Rourke said we think we have expertise on it and not only do we just claim that, it's not a boast. Look at the state of Wyoming and look and see what we have done and see of our history, 125 years. And we put an emphasis on that and seeking that balance and seeking the right way to go. Because in the end, when we leave these jobs that we have, we want to be able to say, you know, hopefully we have done our part to leave that next plate of grass. Hopefully we've done that part so that, you know, 50 years from now, my kids will be teaching

their kids or maybe their grandkids that first hunt and the ethics that goes with that and the appreciation for the outdoors, the appreciation for the West and all that it brings, not just to those of us who are fortunate to live here, but how proud we are to show it off to the rest of the nation and the rest of the world. And it's a special trust that we have, and we're obligated to preserve it.

And nobody has a greater vested interest in seeing that it's done right than those of us who live here. And certainly me as governor, I want to make sure that I do my part in that. So thank you both for being here. Great issue. And I thought I was going to be able to talk about my alligator hunt. I thought I was going to be able to talk about getting sprayed with a skunk here a couple weeks ago.

I've lived in a ranch my whole life. I've never been sprayed by a skunk. I was like ground zero. Bingo. And my wife wouldn't let me in the house right out here i'm here yeah yeah right out right outside our window i was just where was security that's a damn good question so no i went out the sliding glass door and you know we have these little rabbits and i like seeing the little rabbits and her little bush moving. And I'm like, oh, there's going to be a little rabbit down there. Boom.

Just a direct hit. So I come in the house. My wife's like, get out of here. And I'm like, what am I to do? I'm like, I'm homeless now. What do I do? I got hosed by my own pepper spray. You did?

Pepper spray. I've now, I really, this is a lot of like. So it's not an automatic aim on those? Well, it was on my belt. It was on my belt. I was going through some thick brush, threw the switch, depressed the button. It's like, I'm just trying. I mean, I know consensus is on pepper spray,

and I know this is going to drive a lot of people nuts, but I have now, if you factor the number of days that you actually spend with pepper spray and i know this is going to drive a lot of people nuts but i have now if you factor the number of days that you actually spend with pepper spray i have been witness to three pepper spray accidents i'm really it's like i've been charged by one grizzly and i've seen three pepper spray accidents um that's an accidental discharge isn't that that's what that is ad yeah i'm telling you that i'm doing some real soul searching about my relationship with pepper spray. I decided a long time ago about my relationship with skunks.

Feel free to share about your alligator hunt. I'm not here to cut you off. You're here to cut me off. I said that in jest, but I did have all the hunting I've done and the hunting I do with my daughter and my son. It's all in the West, but I did have all the hunting I've done and, you know, the hunting I do with my daughter and my son and it's all in the West. But I did have occasion to go to Florida once and hunt alligators with a buddy of mine who

was raised in Wyoming and then he moved to Florida and, in his words in short order, became a real expert in alligator hunting and in boat building. And so he built this boat that, you know, we're going across the water. And you go out at night, as you know, and the bottom of the boat's moving. And I have a fear of snakes. And so as we're going and we're getting further and then there's bushes on the side, I'm trying to decide, you know, Rourke, I'm trying to say worst case scenario, do I get in the water or do I get on land with the snakes? I never got that. And then you get out the spotlight, you know, and that's how you see them.

You see those red eyes and you have a crossbow to get them. And the guy I was with, he went back the next trip and got a huge alligator. But for me, from the west where you get natural and then all of a sudden you have spiders, and you have snakes, and you have glowing red eyes, it made a skunk look like just a smelly nuisance, not something that's good. So that's a long way of saying you're not wearing alligator skin boots right now. No, that was the other thing. I talked to my wife about, hey, can I go on? And then I came back, and I didn't get an alligator. And she was like, I thought I was going to get a purse.

I was, what's the deal? I sent you out there for three days. You came back empty-handed. So I'll go back one day. Rourke, you just did some hunting. You want to quickly share? And then we're really going to end this podcast. No, so I've got a couple more shots.

But a friend invited me. He played football out at Syracuse, which is where I play lacrosse. He's been hunting a canyon outside of Steamboat up in the Zirkle Wilderness area for 15 years. You just said more than I would have said. Well. I say what state. No, you're right.

So you're right. You're right. Nonetheless, this guy's had tremendous success. That was in Wyoming, you said? Yeah, that's right. Tremendous success. You know, they've seen it and rarely seen other people. When we showed up for the hunt, there were nine vehicles at this trailhead that even give us access to this region.

So I think he was automatically dejected when we got there that we were going to see more folks. We didn't see any other people, but we also didn't see a whole lot of elk. We got one cow close and it was my first archery hunt. So I was, I was very excited and, uh, I'm, I'm definitely taken by it. I'll be, I'll be hunting with a bow for life again, but I'll, I'll also go with other means, but, uh, I've got a couple more chances before the season ends. Did you, you got a little, little excitement? You know, it's funny. I've had several people take me on hunts. They're like, you're not going to be able to control your emotions. I said, I feel like I got a decent shot.

I feel like I got a decent shot of doing that. Unless an elk shows up with an RPG. And that wouldn't be the first time I saw that either. So we'll see what happens. You joke about telling people your hunting spot um my brother hit one of his pack llamas is missing out of riggs idaho and he was trying to get me to online somehow let slip that my favorite elk hunting spot was right where his llama's missing thinking that the huge influx of people,

that one of those guys would turn his llama up. But it's still missing. So if you're out by Riggs, Idaho, and you see a llama running around, its name's Maggie, put some marbles in a coffee can and shake it, and Maggie will come running up, grab it.

It's my brother's. He's offering a reward. Thanks for listening in. Again, Governor Meade, thank you so much for coming on. Very generous of your time. That's it. Tune in next time. Hey, listen up.

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