The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 022

Episode Date: November 13, 2015

Subjects discussed: Montana roots; conservation easements; how Backcountry Hunters & Anglers came to be; the definition of Fair Chase; what high fence operations truly cost the American public; Green Decoys; the promising new demographics in hunting and fishing today; and why the conservation movement is so powerful at the moment. ---- Learn more about Backcountry Hunters and Anglers at https://www.backcountryhunters.org/ Steve will be the keynote speaker at the 2016 Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous and people can learn more or buy tickets at www.rendezvous2016.com Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meat. Hey, everyone. This is the Meat Eater Podcast. We're recording out of Bozeman, Montana. Sunny, beautiful, very dry right now, Bozeman, Montana. I'm joined by Long Tong Yanni,

frequent guest, the Latvian lover, maker of Hunt to Eat t-shirts. If you haven't bought one of Yanni's t-shirts, go do it now. It's the only thing he gets out of this. Also by Land Tawny of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers,

which is a group i have a conservation organization that i have admired the work of over the last few years because i find that their mission aligns well with with my uh take on conservation, my take on hunting and fishing and public lands, and along with a handful of other conservation groups that I like a lot. They're one that I try to be supportive of and encourage people to be supportive of. Land, we have a long time to talk right now,

but I want you to, in a super quick way, I got two questions for you. I can't decide which one I want you to do first. First, give me your hunting and fishing background. Sure. Quickly. Nope. Two.

Two. Explain BHA. The mission of BHA. You can dovetail two into one or or you can just do one, then two. I'll do one and two, but I'm making my elevator speech on number two, so it's quick. Okay. So fifth generation Montanan, grew up hunting and fishing. So that's back like-

1870s. To Custer. Wow. 1870s. First family member was born in Stevensville, Montana, 1872. You're kidding me. No. So they were incorporated as a town in 1872. My first family member was born in Stevensville, Montana, 1872. You're kidding me. No. So they were incorporated as a town in 1872, and my first family member was born there.

You know what year Custer died? 1870 what? June 26, 1876. Okay. Yeah, that's wild, man. So we have a family cabin that's down the east fork of the Bitterroot down there. It's been in the family for 100 years. It's awesome. So I grew up on the east fork of the Bitterroot down there. It's been in the family for 100 years. It's awesome.

So I grew up on the east fork fishing like Sammifly Hatch there, Sammifly Hatch on the Big Hole River. Very lucky we'd spend a week down there. My father knew some folks outside of Yellowstone Park on the Cinnabar Basin, and so he used to hunt elk down there. I know the Cinnabar, yeah, like Cinnabar Mountain and stuff. That later became like a lot of that stuff some national forest and something belongs to cut right yep cut bought some of that i mean and now cut has transferred that over to the elk foundation

which then transferred over to the national forest so we can all hunt it now what's cut uh church universal triumphant it was a cult of sorts yeah it's like an apocalyptic cult based around uh what was her name like mary prophet or something like that and her husband got busted uh running guns from idaho to montana they had big huge uh uh silos full of all sorts of stuff for armageddon yeah it was like a they were like a post-apocalyptic outfit yeah but down there i mean i grew up hunting behind my dad where he'd be hiking up these steep hills in the snow. And literally, I had to take steps in his footsteps or I would not make it because I was so small.

And then my other favorite thing, I think, growing up was duck hunting. And so we had a place south of Missoula in the Bitterroot Valley. Teller Wildlife Refuge that my dad helped set aside and put conservation easements on. And when it got cold, that place was just having for ducks. I mean, they would, you know, the river freezes over and the only thing open is spring creeks. And so you just have ducks piling in there. And I remember as a kid, we'd show up and, you know, the whole, there'd be a thunderous kind of awakening of the marsh.

They'd take off and then they'd come back in fives and sixes and tens. And just watching my dad work and the dog work was amazing. And he'd let me bring my BB gun along, and I'd think I'd have a chance, but it never would happen. So it's been instilled in me at a young age, and then growing up, I think I probably got away from hunting a little bit in high school just because things got crazy. I was playing soccer in the fall and was chasing girls,

and then now I'm... Did you catch any? Some. Keepers? No keepers. Threw them all back um my wife's gonna love that and uh you know and but now i mean i think you know my late like mid-20s late 20s really started getting into hunting fishing a lot more and that's where you know i my father passed away when i was 20 and so i i was out in seattle actually going to seattle university and I came home and after my

dad passed away and it was like this awakening again you know like the outdoors and like figuring out that's what I wanted to do in conservation and so that hunting kind of brought me there and then my dad was the the lawyer for the Elk Foundation when they first started in 85 up in Troy helped bring them to Missoula was their lawyer until he passed away in 95 and he was involved in conservation easements, so definitely with the Elk Foundation, but also with... Real quick, explain conservation easements. I feel like a lot of people don't really...

They hear that, but they don't really know what that means. Yeah, so it's on private land. A private landowner decides that they want to protect the resources on their private land, whether that's the ranching culture or just the kind of wildlife habitat. So they work with a lawyer to draw up what the covenants for that property can be. And they could do it in perpetuity. So like my grandfather that lives just outside of Missoula, he has about 120 acres. And they put a conservation easement on there to where he can't build any more houses on that land and it can't be subdivided. And so matter what when he you know he's in his uh mid 90s right now when he passes away and whoever that's passed on to or sold to that conservation easement goes along with them but they incentivize that with some tax

credits yeah yep so it's not i mean it's not just one-sided i think the biggest thing though i mean the tax benefits are great but that's not what makes the deal i think what makes the deal for people is that you know they we all see development happen all over this country. And I think it breaks people's hearts over and over and over again. And that ability to be able to pass that on and know it's going to be there far into the future I think is what really sells that. Oh, for sure, man. If you've got a place you're in love with and you just hate to think of it just getting trashed later on in life. Yep.

And I think, again, we've probably all seen places that we used to hunt or used to recreate on that are now subdivided and you know you're never going to get that back yeah so what i like about those things is uh you hear so much from opponents of conservation that anytime you set land aside it's like oh yeah it's like the government cramming it down your throat it's like oh yeah tell it to these dudes man right do their own private property yeah i mean it's a private property right you know i mean they have the right to do that and nobody should tell them not to yeah so you know um you mentioned bitter like the way the ducks come in there yeah we used to in at the end of duck season so like december and january when that river would start to freeze we'd float it in canoes.

And just sometimes, I mean, it'd be like ridiculous, but you'd get those mornings where it was super cold. And so you'd get so much steam coming off the river. You know, the air is so much colder than the river. And like you'd pull up on them because the steam was so thick. And all of a sudden, you'd realize that you're sort of in the midst of a bunch of Canada geese heads sitting on some gravel bar, man. I used to love doing that. Yeah, it's magical. But yeah, I know Teller.

I mean, it's still called Teller Wildlife Refuge. My dad helped set that aside with Auto Teller. And they put together about 1,000 acres there in the Bitterroot. It's pinched up a couple other big landowners. And so it's a very special place yeah yeah all right so hunting and fishing background you've been in montana your life way back in montana all my life i went to seattle for a year and a half and uh great town but uh it's gonna be hard to take me out of this state yeah um so give me how you got into like, like talking about BHA is. So BHA, we're a national organization.

We started around a campfire 11 years ago in Oregon. Basically, some people got together and said there wasn't an organization focused on public policy around public lands. And so we're the sportsman's voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife. And what that means that kind of separates us from everybody else is we're strictly advocacy and strictly advocacy on public lands. There's kind of five buckets that we look at, and it's access and opportunity is the first one. And so there's a lot of different things that come into that. Like the sale of public lands kind of falls under that piece. Trying to get access to public lands that are isolated is another one.

There you're talking about landlocked chunks of public land. Exactly. That's the thing that I want to talk about all this stuff, but explain that real quick. Can I just real quick? Yeah, yeah. All right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure. There are big chunks of publicly owned land. Yep. BLM. I don't think any national forests. Is there any national forests? Some national forests. Where all the land around it's privately held and there's no easement to it right um and it's open should be it's available to the public if you came in on a helicopter you could go in there sure but

there's no way to get to it so it's like we the people own land that we don't have a way to get to yeah it's de facto private land is what it is. And I think you described that kind of the donut effect, which you just did. But then there's also a ton of land in Montana that's checkerboarded. So you have BLM, private, BLM, and it's all a checkerboard. And there's a big question of whether you can cross- Corner hop. Corner crossing, right? And so supposedly our shoulders, when we cross that corner, are violating airspace. And so we're trespassing. Now, if you talk to some wardens, they're not going to mess with you, but you talk to some private landowners and they will, you know, go after you for trespassing.

Oh, so we've always not corner hopped. It's such a gray area. Yeah, so corner hop would be like, let's say you're looking at a map and you're looking at sections okay so i mean it doesn't always fall that cleanly but you have two corner sections or you have two squares of land and they butt up only on the corners now if you have a gps unit or if the land's fenced and you can see the fence lines you can theoretically have one foot in the corner of a section and then step over and place your other foot in the corner of the other section

and be like, I never stepped on private land. I corner hopped. The argument is, in some people's eyes, is that you did, like your body passed, even though your feet never touched, your body passed through this person's space so there's an ongoing debate about whether you can corner hop or not a lot of the stuff that we hunt and kind of like one of our hunting strategies in checkerboarded areas which when we're saying that you have mixed land ownership is to use maps to find areas of public land that have very convoluted paths into them,

where maybe you're walking and you're walking on quarter sections and half sections and little weird strips of land and maybe caught into a state chunk to get to chunks of land that are not easily accessible by other mugs. Oftentimes, you'll see these big chunks of land that no mugs can get to because there's no way into it right and so you're talking about finding ways whether it's cash or whatever incentives to open those up or making the case that those should be accessible to the public yeah i think the first thing is is willing seller willing buyer right like nobody wants to force anybody into anything.

And so, you know, using the Land and Water Conservation Fund, using easements or even fee title, you know, to get access to a certain area. I think when we look at corner crossing, that's one that I don't know if there's incentives out there. You know, we had the stream access law and the bridge access that got added to that, which was definitely a help for landowners and for, like, the the users and maybe we can figure something like that out for corner crossing that would be beneficial to both uh but that's a that's a much uh tougher tougher thing when you think about it just because of uh the amounts of areas that are checkerboarded in this state

yeah and you got guys and and like you got guys who are like sure sure, it's public, but why would I want to – like I can just treat it like my own little private area. Exactly. Why would I want to let you go on the land that I sort of claim is my own even though I don't pay shit for taxes on it? I feel like when you say checkerboard too, it just sounds – it's like you use it loosely. But in Montana, especially because i hunted in colorado for a dozen years and there are spots that you could you know you apply that term as well but in montana

literally you can open up pages of the gazetteer and look at it and it looks exactly like a check it looks intentional it's yeah and so my question did you know like the history or the or like the genesis how that came to be where it was just so perfectly checkerboarded between private and public a lot of that i think was uh was back to like the railroads and so when the railroads came in there they gave them so much property and like to actually put the railroad through montana they said here's you know here's an incentive for you and so you're going to get some of this private land and then we're going to have public land you know so you get a certain amount and i don't know the exact details of that but i'm

pretty sure that it was because of the railroads and in some areas they just went literally like public private public oh yeah yeah all right so that's the that's bucket number one so that's bucket number one is access access and opportunity the second one uh would be backcountry conservation and so that's like at a national level making sure that we have public policy that protects backcountry areas. So when you think about like Roldis areas, trying to protect those places with law. When you think about, that's like where we work on this national legislation, like Land and Water Conservation Fund,

like just protecting and promoting, I guess, backcountry at a federal level. Yeah. Which is a big, huge bucket, which I could talk about a lot of things that we're doing there. But then it goes into, like, the third bucket would be kind of place-based backcountry conservation. So if you think about, you know, in Colorado, it would be like Browns Canyon, Montana, the Rocky Mountain Front, Idaho, Clearwater Basin Collaborative,

that we're working on the Clearwater Basin there. And so that's more like place-based stuff. And so you look at a watershed, let's say, and I'll take the Clearwater in Idaho. We worked with ATV users, loggers, county commissioners, other conservation organizations and said, here's this huge landscape. How can we get a path forward that maybe not be perfect for everybody, but it's a path forward for everyone? And so in that circumstance, we've come up with a tentative agreement that has 500,000 acres of new wilderness, 200 miles of wild and scenic river, 200 miles of the longest continuous ATV route in the West, and then increased timber harvest in the front country. Again, is that perfect for everybody?

Probably not. But does it give certainty and a path forward? Yes. And so this has been a 10-year process. We've been engaged uh from the very beginning and now that's kind of moving to senator crapo and there probably is going to be legislation that's introduced to actually codify that and and so that's that kind of play space like really boots on the ground kind of you know this is why we want to do it here so that'd be

that third bucket how many places would you say you're looking at in in in the sense that it's like been identified and it's on your radar for the place-based stuff um is it dozens or is it so this last i mean it was dozens and then this last uh fall uh the the defense spending bill had a public lands package on it where about six of the places that we were working on actually got put into that bill and passed and so i'd say it's cut in half now we're about six of the places that we were working on actually got put into that bill and passed. And so I'd say it's cut in half now, and we're about six, seven. But we're always, I think there's a place, like we're looking at the boundary waters right now. Oh, is that right? There's a proposed mine, sulfide mine in the boundary waters right now,

which would obviously potentially have huge impacts. What are they wanting to go after? Sulfide. I don't know what the hell sulfide is. Sulfide is like, it's a certain kind of mineral. I don't know exactly what it's used for, but it's pretty aggressive mining, I guess, what they do. And they talk about how the clean water would not be effective, but I don't think there's a mine that you look at, even modern mining, that doesn't affect clean water. And so the Boundary Waters is a place that we're looking at trying to protect, right?

And our members have identified because that's a place where they still have that backcountry experience. But there's a lot of protections in place in Boundary Waters too, right? There is, but this will be on like the outside of it. And so it potentially could actually affect it. So I'd say, you know, a dozen to seven or a half a dozen to a seven or eight. But, you know, we're always looking at areas. And not necessarily does that have to be protected by wilderness. wilderness you know i think there's other ways of protection like the rocky mountain front right now um that got protected you know that that had different

kind of protections that kept it the way it is and i think what we're trying to protect and promote through these play space campaigns is that experience and that solitude and the challenge and kind of just that that type of hunting you know, that you could do anywhere if you protect those places. And when I say anywhere, I mean, I was just in the east, and, you know, their backcountry looks way different than what we have here in Montana. In Alaska, it looks way different than what we have here in Montana. But what that binding kind of factor is is that solitude and the challenge of the hunt, right? And if you can protect and promote those places, that's what we're trying to do.

I wish that the kind of – I know we still got buckets four and five to go but i wish that the the sort of land consciousness and the land ethic that fishermen and hunters have in the west sort of a spatial awareness about their areas. I wish that that thinking was a little more contagious and spread to some areas in the East because I think there there's this idea, like where I grew up in Michigan, there's this idea that sort of like the vestiges of wilderness that we have left in the upper Great Lakes, like you don't really count,

you sort of think of them as they're just there by accident. They're just there because no one's gotten around to doing something to them yet. Do you know what I mean? And people, I just feel like, when I say people, I'm generalizing, but growing up, you never, it was just not part of hunting and fishing culture to talk about, man, we love this place.

What is the story up here? What is going on? What exactly is protecting this place? Have we taken a look at what measures we have? Could it get even better? Could we look at some areas that are just neglected right now and sort of bring them into this wilderness area and extend this out it's like you never hear those conversations i think that's i'm sure they happen to some degree but it's not like here it's not like in the rocky

mountains but it's got to be just the amount of public land available because when i grew up hunting i didn't even step foot on public land until i moved to colorado i grew up in michigan did you hunt and trap a lot on public well because i grew up right on the northern end of manistee you know manistee national forest which you know it's a national forest but at the same time it was like just essentially no enforcement about um atv use no enforcement about access it was just like free for all stuff you know and it just seems like there's a much i don't know it just seems like people have a much stronger sense of ownership of like public ownership where you look at public lands as being not just like something

you don't really understand but you look at public lands as being like no it belongs to me man it belongs to us and we have the right and the obligation to as the public monitor what's going on on these lands and i feel like in areas where i grew up around the east, that awareness wasn't there yet. So it is good to hear that backcountry hunters and anglers, and I'm sure you're aware of this, seems like a very western outfit. It's born out of the west. It's a young group.

It's run out of the west. But I'm glad to hear that to apply that, to apply your thinking to the boundary waters, and I would hope a whole lot of other places in the eastern u.s yeah so we have a chapter in minnesota and that's why you know we're able to kind of focus there we have a chapter now in new york and in pennsylvania and then a chapter that covers the six new england states really i wish someone would start one in northern michigan in the up you know the up chapter we're having a lot of talk about that

and i would say steve that we've grown so fast in the last couple years we're having a lot of talk about that and I would say Steve that we've grown so fast in the last couple years we're trying to keep up right now and so I think where there is opportunities and where people that we can gather together like a place like Michigan I think we can start another chapter there but I will tell you that

we're trying to hold on to that horse right now and keep him on the track which is a great problem to have. Because if we get too big too fast, which is kind of a good problem to have, but then you can't manage that, right? No, I understand. But literally just coming back from Vermont last week, where I met with those three kind of eastern chapters,

I mean, we're having these exact conversations. And one of the things, if you look at that map, which Janice just talked about, is that the west has way more public land than the East. But there is still these bastions of public land in the East that need that kind of stewardship, I think is what you're talking about. And not only do that stewardship, but there's also opportunities within like private land trusts, let's say, you know, that have large bodies of property out in the East that don't necessarily allow hunting. And so trying to work with them to open up places, know where it's all walk-in hunting so you still have that challenge and kind of that experience that we're all looking for uh but opens up this that's private

land it's that becomes more public access to it yeah so um but i think you know i think you're right i mean i think that uh it's inherent here in the west and it's partly because we we still have public land you know yeah that's that's and somebody tries to take that away and that's where people get really fired up um yeah moving out here you get educated on public land real quick yeah i feel like it's a big it's a big part of life but i think that it's also i don't think it's just simply a matter of there being more public land out here you know it's an ethos for sure yeah and then another thing that's similar is where i grew up we have like big navigable rivers okay and huge navigable lakes the minute you get on those lakes and rivers you're on public land right doesn't matter who owns the banks okay

so you can be on there and cruise around um i think that developing the mind frame of thinking of those things, like thinking of lakes, thinking of rivers, as being public land. It's just like, I'm not saying something concrete here. I just feel that,

I just encourage people that hunt and fish in the East, and you might be listening to this podcast in the east where i'm from to kind of like listen to the way you're talking about taking care of hunting and fishing land and realize that this isn't just a western discussion right you know like the same way we might talk about a mountain range here you could be talking about your river at home yep i mean like these same sort of ideas the same sort of sense of ownership the same way we might talk about a mountain range here, you could be talking about your river at home. Yep, definitely. I mean, like these same sort of ideas, these same sort of sense of ownership,

the same sort of like watching your own back and seeing what is happening to the places you care about, you know? And what more can you do to help the place you care about and not just have this attitude that when it goes to shit, that was just how stuff happens. It's how it goes. I don't know. Let's find a new place.

No, the reason that we have what we have here in the West is because people have been stepping up for like 150 years and trying to make sure that we have that continuing. And I think that can be said for any kind of conservation in general, but I think there's definitely that feeling from folks in the East, but they feel like they've, I think, lost a lot of that. Yeah. But I think you bring up rivers, and stream access is such a convoluted thing,

and it's so different from state to state. But it is a place where you can go and experience that challenge and that solitude that only rivers can. Do you have a ringer that sounds like a mallard? I do. Before we get to buckets four and five, we'll take a quick break and be right back. Hey, folks.

Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know,

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hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and and tracking that's right you were always talking about uh we're always talking about on x here on the meat eater podcast now you um you guys in the great white north can can be part of it be part of the excitement you can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service that's a sweet function as part of your membership you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more.

As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit on X maps dot com slash meet on X maps dot com slash meet. Welcome to the to the on X club, y'all. All right. So, Lan, give me just to recap now. Make sure I'm paying attention. Yeah. Bucket number one, access and opportunity. Yep.

Bucket number two, general. How do you describe bucket? I know bucket number three is like specific place-based. So I didn't describe two as much, but it's like backcountry conservation. So I would put like the clear water or the clean water act. Okay. Right? So it's like these big, huge things that happen out in D.C. That are broadly applied.

Exactly. Bucket number four. Bucket number. broadly applied. Exactly. Bucket number four, bucket number spots for Steve, bucket number four, no, bucket number four would be, uh, uh,

illegal OHV use. Yeah. And so I drove my truck here, you know, I think everybody drives, you know, somewhere sometime, but it's about that illegal use.

I think that, uh, that gets our hackles up and, you know, it's, it's about elk security. It's about, um, you know, their security. It's about that illegal use i think that uh that gets our hackles up and you know it's it's about elk security it's about um mule deer security it's about uh sediment and streams when illegal stuff happens yeah and it's like here's i want to clarify i'm not speaking for bha okay when i say what i'm gonna say okay like i'm not this is not land tawny talking this is steve ronello talking who's not paid by BHA. I don't speak for BHA.

It's just me talking. The four-wheeler stuff is out of control in the illegal use thing in my mind. And this argument that we're going to run out of places to drive vehicles strikes me as being absurd there are so many places to ride vehicles and there are places to legally ride vehicles that i don't understand why any law-abiding citizen gets irritated any law-abiding ohv user which i would account myself as one of okay why they get irritated when they hear about curtailing illegal four-wheeler use it is not attack on your quad runner it's an attack on doing illegal shit right it's like poaching right i mean it's like if i say we shouldn't poach why would a dude who likes to hunt but doesn't poach get pissed? But it seems like four-wheeler folks, and again, man, I use them. But it seems like four-wheeler folks get mad when they hear that someone wants to start enforcing illegal use.

Like it's an attack on quads. I don't think that busting poachers is an attack on hunting. I think it's helping hunting. Now Lantani will speak about actual stuff all right that was not that was not lantani talking that was not but i mean i think we all share some of the same sentiment right i mean i think i mean one of the reasons why illegal atv use is a hot topic is because we've all been behind the gate two hours hiking it's been dark and that atv comes you know you hear that murmur and all of a sudden

there's an atv coming up right up the trail that you just were dude i approach them yeah there's an area we hunt turkeys in man i go up to them you know i get up universally i don't care how many signs there are saying it i don't care how many signs they drove over right it's all i didn't realize always it's like dude i, I know you know, man. And so one of the deterrents that we're trying to get out there is we have a reward. So the penalties for illegal ATV use aren't that high. No, it's a joke. It's a lot of times a slap on the wrist, right?

Most guys will gladly pay double the fine to be able to drive their ATV. It's part of doing business, right? And so I think we're working, trying with the state legislature to try to increase those fines. But one of the things that we're doing is providing a reward right now. So if you see somebody that's doing something illegal when you're turkey hunting and you get a license plate or get like some kind of identification, able to turn that into the local. But it's hard to get that stuff. Cause I've tried to get that stuff. Oh yeah. No, it's, and it's, and, and, and that's another one that's kind of interesting is that the, um, that is fought is identical identification that you can actually see, right?

When you, when you see a boat, you know, out on the lake, they have that identification like sticker on it. And you can see that from a long way. Yeah. And it's color coded. So you can tell if it's up to date or not. Exactly. And so why can't you do that for ATVs? And I don't get it. I mean, it'd be a good conversation to have with ATV users on why they won't support identification.

But if you actually do some investigating and are able to take some pictures or whatever and turn that person in we'll give you a 500 reward we've given out four this year so not a lot but we get a lot of play we put sometimes we put um that in the regulation books just so people are aware of it yeah and so i think that's a deterrent and then um another thing that we're doing is uh when we do see atvs parked at the trailhead which is? I mean, they use that just like I took my truck. We'll give them like a little thing that says thank you and then a beer opener, can opener that has a BHA signature on it. Oh, that's cool. And so it's like we're doing kind of both, right?

I guess I would say three-legged stool. We're trying to figure out better ways for enforcement in places where they probably shouldn't be. And then we're trying to have something that's a deterrent with that reward. And again, I think that's more a public outreach than it is an actual on the ground. And then that third piece is like thanking people for doing the right thing. And, you know, I mean, I think that it's not an issue that's going to go away. It's probably going to get worse. And I would love to see industry step up even more and talk about this responsible use i think you do see it um it's pretty prevalent but what is different is everybody talks about

doing the right thing but then they don't want to address people doing the wrong thing yeah so when people are doing the wrong thing we're not increasing fines like if you had your atv taken away from you in the woods if it was like your third offense let's say by being behind a gate that's pretty like that's that's not your slap on the wrist anymore that's not so that's a big thing and so i think no you find a guy who's three times been busted with an illegal elk yeah something's gonna be in jail yeah so i mean i think that's about increasing fines and i think a lot of times you know it gets to a judge and he's like seriously this is taking my time like you know i'm just gonna give him but i think awareness needs to be created. And that's partly what we're trying to do.

That's our fourth bucket. The fifth one is kind of hard to define. I think it's different probably for all three of us in this room. And that's fair chase hunting. And I've heard it described that we all kind of, we all have different perspectives on fair chase, but we all know something when we see it that isn't right. And so one thing that we've jumped on is drones. And so when drones started becoming more prevalent,

not just for military but for civilian use, there started to be problems up in Alaska, Colorado, Montana, where folks were using drones to track animals and then go kill them. And so we decided to get out in front of that early. And so we started working with state fishing game agencies or state legislatures to ban these for hunting and scouting. And we've gotten, we've done it in eight states now. Eight states. So we've got Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Vermont, New Hampshire, Alaska, which is seven.

And then I think we're working on it in Arizona right now. And I'm not sure if it's done yet. I love it because it's like Colorado, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love it when it's all states like Alaska, Montana, like great hunting states, but with a very conservative-minded populace

who just can see that that's not good business. The drones aren't good business for the hunting world. Takes way of experience of the hunt. Because so often, and this is something I want to talk about with you a little bit. It might be uncomfortable for you to talk about but it's so often enemies of conservation often try to paint um conservation measures as being sort of like these veiled left-wing conspiracies do you know i mean that we're like talking about hunting but what we're really talking about is like stealing your freedom you know or like government's

shoving it down your throat right that kind of stuff because it's just the way they're afraid of it and they want to beat it right they don't want to have like not that they hate clean water and clean air and good land but just that they don't want anything to stand in the way of them doing pursuing their own personal gains. And so when you see something like the drone thing come up, it's been encouraging to see the way states that on areas outside of conservation are very conservative states, realizing that this, like seeing that for what it is.

It's not like this unwelcome intrusion of government but just saying you know what that's just not for us it's not good business it's not good for the business of hunting and i think i mean so you have drones now but i mean that's why hunters stepped up 100 years ago when there was market killing going on i mean like this is nothing new hunters have continued to step up and so i think that yeah it's like self there's like a there's a constant bit of self-policing yeah and that piece that you talked about how it's like kind of this veiled attempt by you know the government or there's green radicals like shut things down like that's just a tactic that's been used again for 100 years and so it's it's i think you know there's these hunter conservationists which are why we have what we have today.

And so there's still going to be the same arguments that happened around Roosevelt's time, but they're just new now. I mean, drones is obviously a new thing. But I've been real pleased with our chapters jumping on this issue because they've done it. I think another one we're looking at right now, which is high fence hunting. I know how you feel about that. We took care of that in Montana by making it illegal to charge for hunts. I think there's still two that are left that are actually raising them for meat. Yeah, that passed by, what, 70-some percent in Montana? Keep elk wild and free.

Vote for I-143. And, I mean, what a great campaign. Yeah, but it was, like, overwhelming. Oh, yeah. And I think, and so that's, like you know you talk about you know these hunting numbers that are going down you know as far as the the populace but this is an area where everybody understands that that's not hunting and you know that's a it's a long discussion about uh about high fences and but that's part of that fair chase thing i'm telling you about is that that's one of our buckets that we look at but it's really hard to define yeah let me let me i want to

speak to that for me because it is complicated and this is the one bucket you have where it doesn't make me nervous but it's to me it's not as clear cut as some other issues and i'll just share with you a story that I've told many times. I was one time in South Carolina hunting with a friend of mine who has a blind, a deer blind, that they call the condo. He purchased some timber company land, thick, scrubby ground, and put in these long 400-yard, 500-yard long food plots that radiate out from the condo like the spokes of a wheel. The condo is at the hub. It's a big blind with rolling chairs, heaters, fridge, sliding windows, lead sleds.

And they sit in the condo hunting deer. And they got the yardages marked out in each of the food plots. I'm up there hunting with them. And I'm telling him about how I'm going to go out to Arizona to hunt dry ground lions with a lion hunter. And there's two kinds of mountain lion hunting. There's lion hunting in the snow where the tracks in the snow indicate the size of the cat, what direction the cat was going, and usually how long ago the cat came through.

There's dry ground lion hunting where you're probably not gonna find a track there's a 50 chance the dog's gonna go in the wrong direction and it's a very difficult type of hunting i'm explaining to my buddy in the condo about what i'm going out to do he turns his uh swivel chair to me and says, now what is the challenge in shooting a lion out of a tree? Right? It's like your perspective on fair chase is heavily influenced by what the guys in your area do. You got guys in the South

have been running deer with dogs for hundreds of years. It's a traditional use, right? It's just traditional hunting use. In the North, you talk about a guy sees a dog chasing a deer, the dog gets shot. If you went and tried to put a law in

in Michigan saying you can hunt deer with dogs, it would be universally despised. Okay? So there's a tremendous regionality to these issues. So when people talk about fair chase, I think we all like

the idea of it. But it gets really difficult to start telling people what is what and to have us all agree on certain principles so even though i give it lip service when it comes down to it it gets to be very difficult like we used to like when i was a kid we'd like to cut a big hole in the ice to spear fish through the ice you know Someone not familiar with that is going to look at that practice and be like, you're what? I'm like, you sit there and when the fish comes

down, you jab them with a spear. Traditional use. You know? I keep harping on this idea of traditional use because I think that one key to sorting this out is what are traditional socially acceptable practices?

You know? to sorting this out is what are traditional socially acceptable practices you know um i don't know if you spent much time but i spent time hunting in texas it's a very different situation they're dealing with in texas you know it just gets hard now i want to say that and let you continue on but it's like that's one thing that I hear and I always get a little bit like, wow, because when they were just trying to ban hunting bears with dogs in Maine, which was shot down, how were they selling it? It's not ethical to hunt bears with dogs in Maine. That was the terminology they were using. A friend of mine recently sent me a paper where this guy's pushing this idea.'s just stop let's just change the terminology and talk about not fair chase or ethics we talk about fair take you know because the thing we get into and again i want to clarify this is not land town he talking this is me and i'm talking with land i don't represent bha but the thing we get into is um the more we open up stuff

and the more technology comes in to increase efficacy on the part of hunters. So all of a sudden, you can use drones, you have a rifle that's capable of shooting a mile, all this kind of stuff comes up, hunter efficacy grows up, it becomes easier to hunt. Two things are going to happen. You're improving the pump without improving the well.

You've got a bucket of water. You've got water, and you've got a pump. You're making the pump pump faster, but the tank of water don't get bigger. When that happens, as efficacy increases through technology or through other practices, you're going to do two things, shorten seasons or reduce the number of tags generally, because we're talking about shooting the same, killing the same amount of stuff, right?

All this stuff plays into this conversation we're having about drones or any number of technologies or any number of fair chase issues with all that said me like teeing that up continue the conversation but i just wanted to like demonstrate the complexity of what we're talking about yeah so i think i've heard fair chase described one way which i think is helpful to think about is that fair chase like it doesn't really matter to the animal right like the animal can be shot at five yards with a recurve or at a mile with a smart rifle. That animal is still dead. He doesn't really care.

Or crippled. Or crippled, yeah. And equally plausible in either case. Yes, which is a good example, right? But when you start thinking about that, is it fair to the hunt and the hunter? And so I think you're getting to that piece like where things become easy which i think is technology and maybe that's just the way that uh the world works is you try to do things easier and faster but are you cheating

yourself out of that hunt right and like what the hunt is and i think that's a way for me to think about it and so when you think about drones in particular, there is nothing about fair chase and that being a hunt. Besides maybe being very skillful at flying your drone up in the air and finding those animals and staying on. Yeah, being shrewd and technologically savvy. Right. Being good at making money. Right. Right.

So you have a bunch of them. I think it would be hard for anybody to defend drones for hunting, and that's why I think we've been able to have the success we have at this state level. Yeah, that's a clear case. And it's a clear case largely because it's something new. It's something new that we're looking at like, is this the direction we want to take this? It's definable.

It's new. It hasn't caught on yet. It's like the perfect thing for people to sort of get a grip on because it doesn't get into traditional practice yeah another example is that was was the one in texas where they were allowing you to shoot animals through the internet from your desk from your desk you know very easily shot down one that's not that's very different is like the radio use you know it's like say alaska to montana or no i guess montana you can't either alaska you can't but right montana is funny yeah so colorado

you can yeah like in alaska you cannot use two-way communications of any sort to assist in a hunt right to which to mean to use it to to communicate the whereabouts of game, to get someone in on an animal. In Arizona, that's become, this is a bold statement, but that's become the de facto way to hunt. Multiple guys with radios talking people in the game. I remember Montana banned two-way communications during a hunt at all, and then the next year adjusted it to be to use it up, to open it up,

that you could use it for safety and stuff, but just couldn't use it to assist game which seems like a very fair way to handle i think it's a little bit i think it's overreaching just to come in and say like you can't have two like i can't be out hunting my kid i can't hand my kid a radio right to tell me if he's got a major problem he's dealing with right it's different than me taught walking my kid up into an animal so he can kill it just over that next ridge you got another hundred yards and i got good friends man like well-meaning dudes conservation minded guys who who in arizona what they do all they do is ward people into stuff on radios you know so i think i mean partly what we're trying to do here is create this conversation

that we're having right now yeah what is fair chase to you and i try to like define that and again i think it's probably different for all three of us in this room i think it's probably very similar but probably different we got down talking to it yeah when you get down when you get down to the when you get down to the nuts and bolts yeah um and i think the best way to discuss it is to discuss it the way we're doing we're like let's sit down talk about radials let's sit down talk about drones let's sit down talk about fences yeah it's important remember that it's okay to have the discussion yeah you know so often i feel like now we're getting chastised for even like having the conversation it's like look man we're just talking about it no you know nobody's getting mad like it's okay to talk there's two ways of

looking at it um is or not two ways look at but two ways I hear it discussed. One is that any amount of, like in the hunting world, any amount of internal policing or internal talking is tantamount to playing into the hands of the antis. Right. We're all in this together. Dividing and conquering. Yeah, we're all in this together, and we're all in this boat together. And I said in another podcast, I'm like, yeah, we're all in this boat together,

so don't be chopping holes through the bottom of the boat, dude. Right. You're going to sink the boat dude right you're gonna sink the boat so lowest common denominator is that what we really want yeah so it's like there's that you know and i'm and i'm sensitive to that and the thing that bothers me about a lot of these issues is it becomes a matter of terminology hunting is something i care a great deal about i've written about it i've dedicated my life to it it's like outside of family matters it's like the thing that matters to me right um what i've been bothered by is when

people take the terminology and take the rights of hunting and apply them to things that i clearly are not i point out this case recently. My brother has some irrigated pasture. He keeps llamas for hunting. He likes to use llamas hunting out in the mountains. But he has a bunch of irrigated pasture. He's out of town a lot. In order to encourage his friends to come over and check on his llamas when he's out of town, he lets his friends run lambs, run sheep on his pasture.

They come out to check on their lambs. They check on the llamas. It's this great deal. And so he's got, at any given time, I don't know, a dozen lambs. He gave me a lamb recently. I just, you know, and I don't got no way to catch the lamb.

We go out and just shot the lamb, okay, inside a fence. Was that an unethical thing to go and shoot livestock inside of a fence? No, no. We're harvesting livestock. We ate the lamb. It's like that's farming.

Farming, ranching, whatever you want to call it. Do I then apply the terminology of hunting to that and somehow try to drape that activity as hunting? It's like that has nothing to do with hunting you know i didn't then go get dressed up in a camouflage suit and take a bunch of grip and grins with the lamb and act like something happened that didn't happen right we're shooting hot livestock so what bugs me a little bit is like people will act like they oh that you think it's it's like we're not talking about ethics when we're talking about shooting stuff shooting livestock inside fences but why do they insist on dressing it up as something that it's not when guys do opt to go like kill you know wildlife inside fences why

are they so uncomfortable with what they're doing that they're like hiding the fence all the time if that's what you do i think you take your picture up against the big damn fence. You know? Like why? I don't understand why that is. Own it, right? Yeah, it's like if you like doing it, do it, dude. But again and again,

I've watched shows where they're hunting on high wire and they're so embarrassed about the high wire. So it's like if you're so embarrassed about the high wire, don't do it inside the high wire. What are you shamed of? But I think it, so think it gets down to that, that they want to do it the easiest, fastest way, and then they'll tell the story about something else, right? Like the guy that buys the $16,000 tag, goes and kills his big bull in Idaho,

goes back to wherever he came from, puts that bull on the wall. He does not tell that story that he shot it behind a fence. He tells some other story. But he wants to be part of that hunting culture that you know i shot this big bull and so that's why he does it that way because it's the quickest and easiest way to yeah like he admires the culture and he wants the acceptance but just like isn't comfortable yeah and i don't even know where i don't know like what we're talking about i don't know how it ever extends into legislation and stuff, but it's just something I see and it's something that I ponder all the time.

And maybe he doesn't have the opportunity to have the experiences that you and I do, like on public land where there is that challenge, right? Maybe he gets hooked up with somebody that's like, hey, let's go hunt the West, and that's the only thing he's exposed to and that's the only thing he knows. And so I think that's part of a conversation like this and like what we're trying to do is know there's this other thing out there that you can still tap into the way hunting's been for eons on public land if you want to do that and i think there's an appetite for that and that's one of the reasons you know why backcountry hunters and anglers is resonating so much is that people aren't looking for the

cheapest easiest way anymore it's like it's about that journey that gets you there, so that challenge and that adventure. That's more of the story than that animal on the wall. I want to point out real quickly, too. When we're talking about fencing up cervids, it's a much bigger issue. Again, this is not Steve talking. When we're talking about fencing up cervids, it's a much bigger issue because,

I want to say deer and elk running game farms. We're not just talking about like, oh, is it ethical or not to kill these animals inside game farms? You have tremendous disease transmission issues going on with these and proven cases where you have communicable diseases that are within domestic herds, within caged herds that are living in very close proximity to one another, have been exposed to all manner of things, either escaping or transmitting the disease to deer and elk that can't help themselves but to come up and stick their nose through that fence and rub noses with the tame, with the domestic ones. It's not just an issue of like, it's not a morality play. It's an issue of do we value our wild deer and elk? And is a guy's right to make a few bucks selling deer and elk greater than our right to have disease-free herds? Disease-free herds, and it's also genetics, right?

I mean, it's not about kind of if those animals are going to get out it's like when you know and i remember cases of a guy in uh in idaho rex ramble who had a big game farm and big winner a couple fences go down he's got roosevelt elk now mixing with rocky mountain elk like right there like during the rut and and and and the fishing game comes in tries to shoot them from helicopters. He's hazing them back into the woods so that they can't be shot. I mean, it's just this ridiculous thing that, yes, they're shooting them there, which we've talked about.

Yes, there's that disease factor. But then there's also this huge thing about passing on those genes, you know, and mixing kind of herds, which is a travesty to me. Yeah, it's the same issue. And we all agree on certain concepts here. Like if i live on a stream we've basically agreed that i can't go and and plow a few thousand pounds of manure into the stream on my property because it's always my property no because that water flows downhill

dude you're gonna mess up the agricultural landscape and the fisheries and stuff on the next guy down the lines land we've all agreed on that basic premise right resource yeah like i can't have a bunch of holes in my gas tank underground next to your drinking water because you're gonna be really pissed when you get groundwater contamination you're drinking water and so to look at the fence issue it's bigger than just like what somebody's doing on their own private land because again and again it's been proven that it's not that way that it's like we're talking about diseases and other stuff and it's just like people have to wake up to the complexity of this stuff and realize that it's not just this constant battle of like you're my right to do this and your right to do that you know it's so much bigger like what you do on private land

affects public land and what you do with animals that are privately held affects publicly held animals. Yeah. It's a, it's a, I feel like it's a pretty clear cut issue, but it's obviously very, uh,

uh, convoluted. And, um, and there's, and part of that is cause there's money at stake. Um, there's a lot of money being made,

whether that's with the shooting or with the, with, you know, just for the meat, um, and, and breeding stock, I guess. And so I see it.

I think it's something that I think we'll evolve out of, to be honest. I think that the public awareness on the disease factor in particular, but also just kind of the ethics of it, I mean, people don't accept that. And when people find out about it, they want to figure out how to do something about it. And so I think this will be something that we won't be talking about in 25 years i was just at a um you've heard quality deer management association there's a offshoot of qdma and and if you haven't heard of qdma like qdma is to is largely to thank for a movement now among private landholders. I won't say largely.

They've been very influential, instrumental among private landowners to strive toward managing whitetail deer, toward having, for lack of a better term, what we'll call more natural population dynamics in whitetail deer. If you live in an area where you see 20 that where you got 20 does for every buck that's a manifestation of like shitty deer management of shooting all but every buck that walks in front of you kill you're not killing does you wind up having zero bucks that are three and a half years old the

oldest of bucks and gets two and a half and you gets shot and it'd be like guys not wanting to shoot does shooting every buck that walks in front of them and sort of the changing culture we've been experiencing in the last decade or longer of being more open to the harvest of does trying to allow some bucks to reach like a natural reproductive age like that's come out of qdma they speak largely to to they've spoken largely to private landowners because private landowners have more say in the the harvest rates that are going on on their land an offshoot of that is the national deer alliance which is a bunch of biologists and land managers coming together to look at deer issues and i heard and i don't think i'm wrong on this that they're pushing for they keep pushing for a ban on moving cervids across state lines.

Not with an eye toward cramming it down the private man's throat, but for an eye of preventing diseases. Right. Which, I mean. From just inadvertently moving diseases from one end of the country to the other. Chronic wasting disease, which is all over now, is not a thing of this land. It was brought here. And it wasn't from deer swimming the ocean i i mean that's that's obviously a policy i think that makes a ton of sense for the protection of our wild herds and so you would think that that would be something that even um you know some of these uh private deer owners would think of there was a positive thing i saw

an interview with a guy who's credited kind of largely credited with having spawned the deer white-tailed deer breeding thing i think this guy in pennsylvania he really was he's a dude that loved deer guy that loved deer and um eventually had. And it's funny about like, what's funny about the deer farming and deer raising industry and how much money is there and selling like genetic lines and buck seam and stuff is I've never heard anybody bring this up,

but if you trace it all the way back, it had to have begun with a crime because you can't just go catch a deer and have it for yourself with our model of conservation deer are like public property right so i always wonder like it's almost i'm not saying it's like it's the statute of limitations way right now but it always like it always strikes me as being something that began with a wrong right some guys like white tail deer right you know some guy went out and said you know what i'm just gonna make that mine Right. Some guys, like Whitetail Deer, right? You know?

Some guy went out and said, you know what? I'm just going to make that mine. And then from there, innocently enough, you know. It's perpetuated. We've gotten to this thing where deer have become, like, for some people, it's not good enough that we have deer as like a national, as wildlife. It's like they got to turn it into something. And it's driven by many factors.

And one of the biggest thing it's driven by is the desire to shoot a gigantic buck. And what these guys care about is just shooting a giant buck. They don't care if it's been drugged or what. It's just sad when you think about at what cost that's going to come to our wildlife. But do you think, and I feel like that's been a trend until the last five, ten years. Yeah, I think it's reached its apex. And now it's like people are like, nah, that's not okay. So I think we're kind of reeling back.

And that's why I say, I think like in 25 years, we're probably not going to be having this conversation. I hope not. I hope you're right. Because I was at like one of those big conventions recently. I won't name the one. I mean, you can probably guess. And I kind of thought that like that stuff had faded out

just because I wasn't seeing it. But I went to this convention and you walk down the aisles and rows and there were many you know in the dozens of boots that were you know these farms selling and you look up at these heads that they have mounted and you just like selling buck semen well they're just i don't know what they're selling they're selling the box or whatever but you look at these bucks and you've never even seen anything like this you know like i didn't even know this stuff existed and now here here there was 20 booths at this show like selling this opportunity at you know one of these heads and i mean they're just like you know whatever it's like an upside down stump you know going on top of this deer's head and

yeah but i think that there that we are like i upside down stump, you know, growing on top of this deer's head. Yeah. But I think that we are like, I mean, when you, when you brought up like TV and like, they're trying to keep like that stuff out of the shots, you know, for a while they didn't really care. Oh really? Yeah. I mean, you'd see, you'd see fences and I mean, same thing with like cordon feeders and stuff. Like you'd see them in the shot. Yeah. And now I feel like they're not doing that as much anymore. And it's because about that experience of the hunt and like people like it it cheapens that hunt i mean in a lot of people's eyes and

so i think you know we'll see i mean we're probably always going to be those guys that want that big rack and they don't care i mean i've seen videos of deer that are drugged that fall over and they have to prop them up with sticks and then a guy shoots them oh yeah man whatever with them you know it's ridiculous so they're always going to be those kind of people, but I feel like we're tending away from it, hopefully. I hope so. And I just hope for a second. If that's what you get off on, great, man.

But I don't want those practice. I shouldn't say great. If that's what you get off on and you want to do it in a way that's not, that doesn't have catastrophic implications to wildlife health in the U.S., okay, but you better find a way to guarantee that those practices aren't like light and sticks of dynamite underneath public wildlife. I don't think there's a guarantee. No.

All right, let's change the subject. I hate to harp on the negatives. Before we start a new subject, let's take a quick break. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated well if you're

sick of you know sucking high and titty there on x is now in canada the great features that you love in on x are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning gps with hunting maps that include public and crown land hunting hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service.

That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit OnXMaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX conservation, the future of public lands, tell me a handful of things, a handful of trends that you think are detrimental to hunters and fishermen. Some things that are going on right now that we really need to be, as hunters and fishermen, that we should really be watching out for in order to protect our rights? And two, what are some of the things that you're most optimistic about

that you see right now that are happening that are good and that we can hopefully keep continuing to be good? Yeah, I think the biggest threat that I see right now, and this is nothing new, but it seems to resurface every 10 or 15 years and that's the sale of public lands and you know it's it's it's been guised in the transfer of public lands to the states but really the sale of is where it ultimately ends up and that to me that we can talk about all these other issues and we've talked about already today what makes part of the west so special is all the public lands we have and like some of those last bastions of public lands in the

east you get rid of those public lands which are in my mind the cornerstone of our hunting heritage here in the united states which makes us different than every everybody else and you get rid of that and we can have all sorts of conversations that we were just having that don't matter anymore because it's just that's not it's that's not the unique kind of american experience that we were just having that don't matter anymore because it's just that's not it's that's not the unique kind of american experience that we've had and and so you know right now we're in the middle of of you know we have two presidential candidates that are calling for the sale of public lands um senator cruz from texas and uh ran paul was just this last week was in nevada talking about. And it's no longer.

It's just like dudes, like just dudes, urban dudes, man. They don't get it. Like just, I think just like, like kind of like city slickers that just have no comprehension of the kind of stuff. They just have no comprehension of wildlife. Senator Cruz is from Texas. How much public land is in Texas? Yeah. You know, and so, I mean, and when I say, you know, so it's becoming more mainstream.

You know, I mean, this is not something that's on the fringes. You know, we've had a big movement here in the West that I think we've done a really good job beating back at the state level, even though at the state level there's no binding authority that they have at a state level. It's more about just kind of creating some momentum for a federal action. But when you had, this is getting into the weeds, but there was an amendment this last spring that Murkowski from Alaska brought forward that would create a fund to help facilitate the transfer and sale of public lands.

Now, she said it was for a small piece up in Alaska, but it was broadly written, so it was anywhere. 51 senators voted for that. Now, that's 51 senators. That's now this isn't like those are that's 51 senators that's a that's a big deal and so i to me a lot of people have said oh this is just kind of this noise that happens and it'll go away well to me that's not just noise when you have 51 senators vote for it and you have two presidential candidates one is a little bit more mainstream than the other um but i was talking about this with my brother. Yeah. And he was like, he's trying to, he's a BHA member.

But he was like, I just, I try to understand the mindset of people who want to ditch public lands. And he said, is it that they like drive and look at a mountain and they're like, man, I just wish I couldn't go up into that mountain i just wish it was owned by a billionaire like it can't like he was being facetious that can't be what they think but what is it that it's not being sold to them that way but like what is it like what is it what do they really feel i know i feel like i know what they're actually talking about like what i'm always interested in is what are the secret private conversations they have i feel that i know what the secret private conversation is yeah but what is really being said in the outward way about why it's beneficial to ditch public lands so i think the private ones are like you know the the money

that's being made there right by they're not not being rank and file and calling for this. It's like rich people. So that's the first one. Yeah, it's a hatred of government. But yeah, so it's like our public lands aren't being managed in their eyes in a correct way. And so they have frustration. In an aggressively for-profit way. And so they have frustration.

And so whether that's trying to take more trees, trees they're trying to do more mining whatever that is i think that's that's that piece that people are frustrated with now what they don't necessarily understand is that federal lands are managed for all of us and so that means multiple use and so that means atv users that means hunters that means anglers that means bird watchers that means miners that means loggers that means grazers and so is that complicated very complicated um and how to all make that work and we talked about the clearwater basin before and that's that's the reason that has come up is because federal management wasn't working for that area and they've tried to do something else right so i think we can agree that public land management um it could be improved but at the same time it's a pretty good system where everybody has a voice at the table when it comes to the state that's managed for one thing

that's for profit and so like in i mean colorado is a great example state lands in colorado that are open to hunting the fishing game in colorado has to lease those from the state to open those up to hunters yeah that's ridiculous like that's our like that should be their land yeah it's not leased you can't even sleep on it. You can't camp on it. And like in Montana, I think what you can camp two days on state land, you can camp 14 on National Forest without moving, right? But that's all because of money.

I mean, those lands are there to generate money. And so I think that's a big one. And then, you know, if we have unfettered kind of development, like what kind of habitat and opportunity do you have on that land after that and and so this is again being bred out of frustration and part of who is bringing this forward are also the people that are cutting budgets for the forest service and so you know the forest has forest service has to do uh less or more with less right they have less money to keep roads open. Like a lot of roads that are closed are because they're not being maintained.

That's because they haven't got the budget up at the federal level. Yeah. That isn't because some environmental group came in and said, no, you can't hunt in this spot anymore. We're going to shut down this road or whatever. It's because budgets have been cut. Yeah, because culverts get washed out and stuff like that. It becomes a liability.

It's hard to maintain those roads in those kind of places. You're talking dirt roads and heavily eroded areas right and so you shut them down yeah there's a lot of confusion at times about what exactly you got gated up for a lot of times just like simply liability it's not safe to have from their perspective they can't have people driving around on roads that like effectively don't exist right so i think i mean like it's it's a little bit of frustration with the management of our public lands is where it's coming from. And that's how it's being sold to the public. But ultimately, what's at stake is really money.

And the big money that's behind these efforts is that oil and gas extraction industry. And is there a total smoking gun there? No. But it's pretty easy to figure out that this is much more organized this time. And the American Lands Council or the American Legislative Exchange Council based out of Utah, I mean, that funding comes from large industry. And so it's not that hard to make that step, I guess. Yeah, and they've gone after you guys.

They've gone after you personally. They've gone after a lot of people in the conservation world as being like these sort of secret sly. The green decoy. Yeah. The green decoy. And I think it was funny. The first time I heard about that, I was coming home from actually Bozeman.

There was a hunting film tour here in Bozeman that we had worked. I was coming back to Missoula. Snow was just dumping. I had both hands on the wheel and on my phone on my phone comes up this phone call from louisiana i did a lot of work down louisiana for a while like i don't know if i really want to talk to him i was like god i love this guy and i put an answer he's like dude have you seen the green decoys and i'm like no like tell me about them like are these like they have all flocked heads they flock bodies like what are they he's like oh you haven't seen and that was the first time i found out about it and at first i would say um that bothered me that somebody was coming after

organization to me personally about it but the way i looked at it and the way i look at it now basically saying like oh those guys don't like to hunt fish they're fake they're fake they're guys who act like they like and hunt fish and And I remember thinking at the same time, I'd be like, dude, I would love to take a random sampling of BHA members and take a random sampling of whoever these guys regard to be real hunters and real conservationists and match them up toe-to-toe in a hunting contest. Dude, it's like it would be hilarious. We win every time.

It would be hilarious. It was so outlandish to me because I've been, like, I know a lot of BHA members who've been to BHA functions. They'd be like, oh, wait, you're saying those guys don't actually like to hunt? Those guys like to hunt and fish more than anybody I know. Yeah, it's a way of life, not a pastime, right? Yeah, it's just fucking ridiculous. What I love thinking about is, like, so it's just the firm that's actually behind that is burman and associates it's out in dc it's a pr firm they've been called dr evil by 60 minutes uh new york times at a big expose on them last year when

richard burman got caught in a oil executive meeting talking about how he's gonna use all these dirty tactics uh to to fight folks and um an executive push record on his phone because he didn't like you know he was talking about you can either win or you can either lose uh being pretty or you can win being dirty and like that's when he pushed the guy didn't like it didn't like it and so then he gave that to new york times new york times blew it up yeah and so there's actually a will coggen who works underneath him um and he's this this white pasty lobbyist inside D.C. that I'm guessing has never set foot on public land. But I definitely know that my daughter, who's six years old, has had more blood on her hands than he ever will.

And so to call that fake, and I think, again, the reason they're calling us out is because we look at this land and want to perpetuate these opportunities, and conservation is a big piece of that. Am I saying, are we saying no more oil and gas development ever no like we're talking about in a responsible fashion right and we have a long track record of doing that but i think the reason this green decoys thing has come out is because of the success we're having talking to people and so that's where at first i was frustrated and worried about kind of what that meant for us and since then uh it's it's more like a badge of honor right like the reason they're coming after us because we're being effective and like they're like the other day we like your voice is loud yeah and it's being louder they're trying to

i would say i had a dozen people when i came out i had a dozen people fans of meat eater show right or on twitter or whatever come on say like know, I don't know if I can keep supporting you because you guys support BHA and it's always got a link to this Green Decoys thing. Every one of them I wrote to and I said, I invite you to do two things. One,

look into who made that. Okay. And two, go to BHA's website or call BHA and then you tell me one policy issue that they have that you don't agree with. Like, I don't want to talk about who there did what when, but look at as an organization. You find one thing that you want to come and tell me is bad policy for hunters and fishermen, and then let me know what one you think.

I never heard back from a single one of those guys. Yep. And I think... Because I'm saying, look at... It's not like a mysterious group. No. It's a non-profit. No.

No, we... I mean, all our... Where we get our money is all up online. Like, you know, all the policies that we have is up online. I mean, again, I'm... I think there's some shadows. I mean, these organizations, it's an organization of like two

that's out in D.C. like the Environmental Policy Alliance or whatever they're called now and so and they don't disclose where their money comes from and it's just this some of the things

that they're accusing us of are ridiculous and when I look at it again I mean we've gotten you know so we'll come up on a blog

right and partly what I think they're trying to do is trying to waste our time a little bit right so they get out and then we have to deal with it we'll come up on a blog, right? And partly what I think they're trying to do is trying to waste our time a little bit, right? Like, so they get out, and so then we have to deal with it.

We'll come up on a blog, and what's been great is that we don't really interact with that. There's other people, either members or people that look into it. So then that conversation happens. We get members out of that. We've gotten life members out of that,

which is a great thing. Like, no press is bad press, right? And I think what it fuels is it fuels the people that already kind of want to think that way. Like this conspiracy that, oh, you know, like these guys are, you know, acting on behalf of this anti-hunting green decoy, you know, green kind of whatever. And so that fuels their fire. For the people in the middle that investigated a little bit or are asked to investigate and they look at it, they're like, oh, these guys are like kind of share a lot of the same values I do.

Maybe I'm going to become a member. And then on the other side, they did that video of me right before the SHOT Show this year. And they sent it out to all my corporate partners. And so I get to the SHOT Show, and I'm a little bit nervous about how they're going to react to this. And to a corporation that we worked with, they were like, we saw it. We think it's hilarious that they're actually doing it. You must be kicking major ass. And then three, we want to double down with you and do more with you.

So it's backfiring. And we just had something pop up around the Clean Water Act. The administration comes out, clarifies some rules on the waters of the US thatS. Yeah. To protect. For headwaters. For headwaters and isolated wetlands. We come out with Trial Limited and TRCP and say, thank you for doing this. And then they come out right after that and say, hey, by the way, these guys aren't your friends. I'm like, okay. So the prairie potholes in North Dakota where they're making all the ducks, you don't want to protect that? Like, that's the duck factory.

Like, that's the duck factory. And, like, here's something that's going to help protect those lands. Like, tell me how that's anti-hunting and it's not and then you know it gets down to clean water like everybody drinks clean water i don't care if you shoot ducks or not but those you know marshes are important to all of us and so like it's it's comical a little bit their tactics uh but uh it is something and it comes out of this this effort that um and that i believe you know on this public lands effort for sure and that they're trying to they're trying to snake oil sell this thing and they're using tactics to try to cut down people that are trying to make sure that we keep it in public hands what's funny is now we've all

like it's funny like theodore roosevelt okay has been deified right i mean he's everybody's angel right he's one of those guys that everyone from all persuasions wants to align themselves with Theodore Roosevelt. We just agreed that he was a great guy. I would love to go. I don't know why I haven't done this. But to go find the rhetoric that was used to attack Theodore Roosevelt when he was trying to create a public land system, national forest system, to use the rhetoric that was used to attack him on doing something that we now universally

agree as one of the greatest achievements of American politics. They were saying the same stuff then that they're saying now. Yeah. I mean, it was senators, Western senators from Idaho and Montana that ultimately made it so he couldn't declare national forest anymore when he did the midnight forest. And so and the reason they did it is because they were kind of the timber barons at the time.

And they didn't think that they were going to be able to take as much timber that they wanted off of those national forests. So have they been able to continue to log on those forests? Yes. And so I think you're right. I mean, the rhetoric, it just changes. I mean, the sagebrush rebellion, then you had Congressman Pombo in 2005 that wanted to sell off public lands to pay off the national debt. It seems to come up every 10 or 15 years, and the language never changes, it's just different players. And at this point, I think it's been more organized and more funded, this go-around. Yeah. And I think that's partly because people are frustrated with the government in general, right?

I mean, the federal government is just, no matter what you talk about. But when you talk about public hands and staying in public hands, like, that still is like a 70%. Like, people want that to stay. But there's this frustration with the public or with the federal government. I think they're capitalizing on that. One thing I don't really understand why people have such a hard time grasping is I don't think that all of our public lands

should need to answer for themselves at all times in an economic way. Like anyone who sort of manages their own money, manages their properties, manages things. At times you just you hang on to things for the future. You know, if you look now at some of the great treasures that we've created. Public land treasures, we create some of the great things we've set aside, we hold many more of those in our pocket right now that if they're preserved will be as valued by future generations

and will be as valuable as the relative nature of landscapes change. We will continue to develop more create more build more roads shrink more habitat as we do that we are just going to increase the value of the lands that we haven't done agreed they will become like many more yet also national park type things you know as the contrast increases increases between wilderness and civilization. And when people now sit down, and well-meaning people and people I support sit down, they're always trying to demonstrate the economic footprint of hunting and fishing, justifying it through the economic footprint.

I'm like, sure, let's use that. Let's use that justification about our humongous economic input from license purchases, travel, hiring outfitters, all this kind of stuff, all the money we generate and jobs we create and revenue we generate. Why not talk about that? What makes me leery about it is to be like, oh, so it's only justifiable if I can prove its value in present-day dollars. I need to justify hunting or justify my right to have clean water and air through the economics. I can't just justify it through something that's bigger and more valuable, more spiritual in nature than just trying to tell you in dollars what hunting and fishing is worth.

I don't need to justify the existence of my three children and based on how much revenue they're creating for me right right it can just be that no it's like it's beyond money they're precious it's like they're the things that i care about most no one says yeah well show me how they're making money no in fact they're costing me tons of money does that make me love them less in a weird way makes me love them more do you know i mean like why can't we talk about public lands in that way you know instead of having to sort of justify their existence based on like how many jobs did it create today although leopold when he wrote sand colony almanac he has this line there where

he talks about leopold like the father of one of the many fathers of modern conservation he talks about we've become like economic hypochondriacs where we're so worried about our financial health that we're incapable of being healthy you know i don't see that it's that bad to have some things that maybe cost us a little money or don't generate a lot of money because we're holding them in perpetuity with the good faith, as demonstrated through many other landscape projects, that they will continue to be of tremendous, incalculable value in the future.

National forest lands, state forest lands. That's what uniquely makes us America, right? Like, I mean, we are so different because of what you're describing. And I mean, I think the economic argument comes up and I think it's an important one, because it resonates out in Washington, D.C., where a lot of these policies are made. And when you think about adding the outdoor recreation industry into that piece,

when you're talking about $646 billion, that's a big number that's sustainable. And so for some folks that don't get the intrinsic values that you're talking about, the only thing that they can think about is dollars and cents you have to do it but i just like it may you have to do it i support doing but at the same time it makes me a little uneasy because i'm like so what are we exactly are we saying did i have to look at i like to fish catfish you know do i have to like look at a catfish and be like what have you done for the economy today right you know i just don't know that I need to hold, I don't know that the catfish needs to support that burden on his shoulders or on his dorsal fin, man.

But I think when you do talk about it in that kind of that value set that you're talking about, people get that piece. I mean, that whole Ken Burns piece about national parks. People are proud that we have national parks and it's that uniquely American thing. So we need to talk about it more in the way that you just talked about it um because i think it resonates and and you know and if i'm if i'm thinking about you know the survival of these public lands that's a big piece of it all right how long

we how long we've been talking right. Lane, concluding thoughts? Concluding thoughts, I think that... Oh, it would be nice if you want to before you conclude a thought, or you can use it as your concluding thought. But the prior question to this was... Positive things. Yeah, what's got you excited right now? My glass is always half full,

like, right. You know, and I think that's the way I grew up and that there's always opportunities. And, and so I think when you look at, you know, the hunting and fishing numbers that just went up and the reasons they went up

is because people, um, uh, hunt and fish more and when the economy's down, so those numbers went up, but then you have this new kind of like foodie kind of movement that's helped drive that, and then women in hunting. And I feel like we've been a group of, and I'm 40 years old now,

so maybe I am one of these old white men, right? But hunting has been. Yeah, I'm 41, so I've been one for two years. Yanni's not one yet. All right, well, look forward to it, buddy. He's a young white man. But it's been like this old white man kind of sport right and and is is and and now you see uh uh people getting into it you know through the

foodie movement or more and more women that's women talking to women rather than guys going hey you should come out and you know hunt with me and do it that once and then call yourself a hunter like it's real like these are real women that are going out and wanting to do this as a lifestyle and and and so that to me um gives me hope that uh that that hunting continues to stay in a mainstream kind of way and that conservation kind of fabric that's been woven through the last 150 years has been driven by hunters helps carry that into the future and you know i'm also i mentioned the outdoor industry a little bit ago i feel like they they're starting to realize that not only are they a huge economic driver, but they have a huge stake in our public lands and that they need more of a voice.

And so how they do that, there's many different ways for them to do that. Part of it's financially. But I feel like those groups, those new groups of foodies and women and kind of kayakers and mountain bikers that aren't just using the outdoors but actually are going to give back, that gives me, I think, gives me hope for the future and hope for my kids. They're going to have a place to defend. I feel like you and I are here right now, and we're defending the legacy that was handed off to us, but it's for this short amount of time. And then our job is to pass it on to the next generation to help fight for that, right?

That's all we're doing is we're passing that on so that they have something to fight for because they will have to fight for it. But we have to make sure that, one, it's there for them, and, one, that they have something inside of them that actually makes them want to do that. And I know that you're doing this with your kids and I'm doing it with mine, is that they're getting engaged in the outdoors from the very beginning. It's just something that they're going to be a part of. But hopefully that they're the next leaders and that they're creating more opportunities for other people. And for me, I think that we're going there. The threats are dire, but they've always been dire. It's just our time right now to do our part to make sure that we pass it on to the next generation.

And, you know, with things like new technology like this podcast, I mean, you're reaching more people that way, right? And you're reaching hopefully different audiences than just that old white man. And nothing against the old white man. I'm one of them now. And they have a lot to contribute to conservation and to this kind of hunting and fishing legacy. But if we are just so looking inward, that's not going to perpetuate into the future. And then you lose this thing that you just talked about that is uniquely American, which are these public lands that have these values that are hard to describe. But we all know it because it makes us feel proud of who we are.

Yeah. I'm not nervous about exposure man i know that like the way to get people to want to fight for what they have is to show them what they have yeah you know i've traveled a lot to you know a lot of different countries and you get into a lot of areas where the disconnect between people and their landscape just becomes so severe because they're so shut out by you know difficulty in travel economic considerations where when they're talking about that mountain range off the distance or that marsh off the distance it just has no they just never picture how it might possibly relate to their own well-being you know i think that yeah you got to show people what they have if we continue to do that you know then we got a bright future if not it's gonna look way

different and i don't want to think about it that way yanni concluding thoughts um i'm guilty of it i'm gonna throw myself under the bus here because i'm one of those guys like just pays my was it 35 bucks annually i get my journal get my sticker put on my analogy bottle put on my truck but i need i feel like everybody should do a little bit more i need to do a little bit more i'm gonna talk to land when we're done here and see how i can actually put my boots on the ground but i feel like a little bit of a call to action like everybody should do just a little bit more than just paying 35 bucks and maybe you could speak to that just you know in a couple sentences of just like what's it just show up at the chapter meeting is that where to start yeah i mean i think

i mean we have chapters all over this country there's 17 chapters um that are mostly based in the west but i've talked about the ones in the east and so it's getting engaged with those chapters and you know i mean there's all ways to engage you know whether that's helping us with fundraising events and membership events all the way to showing up at the district ranger's office and talking to them about ATV abuse in a certain area and how can we help curtail that. And so there's different ways to get engaged. And I would say that the only reason, I've already said it, the only reason we have what we have today is because people have stepped up. And I think paying the $25 for a membership a year, that's a great way to step up. That's just the first piece.

And that next piece is the people that step up make a difference, right? Can you still get that Kimber 45 ACP for joining Lifetime? You can. That's a sweet deal, dude. ACP, it's a $1,500 life membership, and you get that. Yeah, you get a 45 ACP. Which is like $1,100 gone. It doesn't make any sense you guys are able to do that. Yeah, you get a.45 ACP. Which is like a $1,100 gun. It doesn't make any sense you guys are able to do that.

Well, we have a good relationship with Kimber, and then it's also a way that we create awareness for BHA. We gave away 76 guns last year. Are you serious? Is that right? Between the two? Between the micro carry, that.380, then the ACP, and then the Mountain Ascent. And that Mountain Ascent is just like unbelievable

if I had some money I'd buy that right now but no I think it's stepping up right I mean you're asking about it and I think that um if you're complaining and you're not doing anything then stop complaining like you got to do something and and it's about that's that's the way America has been built that's the way we're building our organization and it's you know those who step up actually get things done yeah I think it would have mattered to like look at what is the thing like what are the things you care about most in life yeah you know i take all kinds of measures to make sure that that you know family right is taken care of in a multi-generational sense like i care about that okay i'm willing to make sure the deck is taken care of i care multi-generational sense. Like, I care about that. Okay, I'm willing to make sure the dad gets taken care of. I care about my vegetable garden. I look to make sure my vegetable

garden is taken care of. It's like, I care about hunting and fishing. You need to look and make sure your hunting and fishing is taken care of. It's just not going to happen on its own, dude. It just don't. It's not going to happen on its own. And also, I think people think it's daunting, right? Like, oh, my voice doesn't count or like, I just don't know how to do things. We can help you do that. And, you and you know again like showing up to that meeting um you know and with your district ranger like he's hearing from all sorts of different people but that one we had some people working on the bitterroot travel plan right and like our local chapter was working on that their voice and talking about elk security versus a voice that's saying open up all roads and

unfettered like atv access everywhere those two voices then come together where they make a decision without that voice over here we don't make it back in the middle right and so it's like your voice does count and uh and so yeah i mean we'll talk more about how you can get engaged uh but you know we're we're young and we're growing and we've we've built this organization on word of mouth and we're starting to get more opportunities like this to do bigger word of mouth, right? But we're resonating. We're resonating for a reason

and that's because people see us focusing on public land, which is this asset that we all have. That everybody has. Yeah. Was that your concluding thought? Yeah. You know, this is kind of like mine. This is kind of my concluding thought.

A lot of times I get, like we get a lot, we field a lot of emails of people who say like man i you know my dad didn't grow up hunting you know i was never brought up around it i really want to start hunting but it's like so daunting like i don't know anybody that hunts i tell them often i'm like i'm i shouldn't even be telling you this, Lan. I'll say, you know what you ought to do, really? Join a group like BHA and start going there and pitch in.

Because you're going to wind up being hooked up with the most hunting and fishing-ist guys around. Because I've met many BHA members, and they are guys around you know because like i've met many bha members and they are like guys that live the life right go to those places and become like a teammate there and pitch in there and do it that way and just worm your way in to like a hunting and fishing culture in order to start like untapping the vast wealth of knowledge that your members have about accessible hunting and fishing that anyone with a with a pair of boots can get involved in hopefully you want that kind of member we totally want that kind of member i mean we do we do i mean and i like we do a series called backcountry college and in that college in that like online kind of video series like we teach

skills and i don't know how many comments come in there that like yeah i've never been hunting but this is like actually making me feel like you know that i could have some skills now are we doing all the skills and does that take place of anything that happens on the ground no but i think having like people that come into hunting later sometimes are even more passionate about it and appreciative of what it actually is because they didn't grow up like you and I did. It's just kind of a way of life, right? But when they come in, it's new,

and a lot of times they're in their late 20s, early 30s. They have a little bit of means, and they can dive right into it. And to them, they see the rewards that we do all the time, but it's so new to them. It's so exciting to them. And so they're almost even more passionate. And so I think, please continue to do that. I mean, anytime you're going to help us push membership,

please do that. I used to shovel manure and throw hay bales in exchange for hunting permission. I didn't even know what I was doing. My dad would fire me and my brothers out to shovel manure and throw hay bales for hunting for his hunting permissions it's a reason to have kids right yeah so now i'm like yeah man tie in like if you you look at the what look at the mission of the organization tie into the organization hang out and like it's just inevitable because like good people get involved in conversation or

conservation. Good people get involved. People who care about the future, who care about other people, right? Who want the world to be better than they left it. Those are the people who are involved in these organizations. That's also the kind of person that's going to take you under their wing and show you some things when they realize that you're aligned in the same way. I don't think you need to become like an expert hunter and fisherman in order to be involved in conservation.

And I'll tell you what, we have this semantic thing in the U.S. where we've got like environmentalism and conservation. And it's like in some ways we view these two things as being different. I think that if we're going to take like sort of the garden variety acceptance of environmentalism being somehow like preservation and conservation being sort of like this idea of environmental protection open to the idea of us extracting renewable resources of fish and game. The conservation movement in this country right now, this is a bold statement, but the conservation movement in this country right now is far more effective and far more powerful than the environmental movement because they reach across the aisles i mean i think that conservation is doing more on the ground stuff than an outfit that might build that might use these like semantical terms i think if you want to be a

powerful player and supporting the kind of things you care about i would look at the conservation movement and you can start conservation without knowing shit about hunting and fishing agreed the only thing i would say there is one of the reasons why the conservation is being so successful is because there's that like far right flank over here and there's that far left flank with environmental over here right and so there's that opportunity to try to make that space in the middle yeah and which you know i've had conversations with uh my mom who has been involved in this kind of stuff for a long time about this exact thing is that if that if that right flank of just unfettered extraction wasn't there and that left flank of this kind of like leave it all alone don't ever

touch it again don't even hunt it don't fish it don't where are we don't even look at it yeah where are we going to be in the middle like what if you like what if that middle was you know farther over the right what if that middle was farther over the left right like it's there is that middle for a reason and so do they play a role i think so but it's where stuff getting done it's conservation yeah all right that was my concluding thought thanks for listening in give a good look um don't just take my word for it, man. You're a registered nonprofit. By law, a registered nonprofit needs to be transparent.

Go look at what BHA is doing and then come tell me if you got a problem with it and I will explain how you're wrong. Thanks for tuning in. Land. Great to be here. All right, guys. Take it easy. Hey, folks.

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