The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 044: Prince of Wales Island, Alaska. Steven Rinella talks with Morgan Fallon, Garret Smith, Korey Kaczmarek, Erik Osterholm, and Rick Smith of the MeatEater crew.

Episode Date: September 16, 2016

Subjects discussed: the beginnings of the MeatEater tv show; Mo's second deer hunt; the midnight hike of dirt myth; whisper yelling; the relationship between the camera operator and the subject; the human bullshit meter; running shrimp traps; the bushwhack rating scale; Steve's first tv biz meeting; and the language of camera.  Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We call it the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. All right, first thing I want to do is, Garrett, act like I all of a sudden just fell over dead.

And it was just silence. And you all of a sudden had to step into the role of being the host. The reason I'm doing this is because this is the first one Giannis Patel has. I think this is the first Meat Eater that Giannis Patel's was not here. Because he's now got a crippled up knee. He feels that he's going to get better. I've written him off. It just seems to me once someone's knee goes bad, it's just they're done.

So here I am. I've fallen over dead. What would you... How would you proceed? I'd say a moment of silence for Yanni's knee. And then I'd ask Rick. Man, I couldn't do it. You wouldn't just jump into like...

No. You'd make me do it, Garrett? I'm totally unqualified. But it began. The conversation began then. That was the voice of Garrett Smith. And then as though dealing poker, Corey, just say a few things about yourself. My name's Corey Kazmarek, sometimes Kutchmark, sometimes Kutchmarek.

I like it. Depending on how Russian they're feeling or Polish. Polish. So, yeah, this is my I'd say seventh meat eater as far as working with these guys as a cameraman. Tell them some of the other cameraman

stuff you do. I do this show called Mountain Man or Mountain Man, excuse me, where we follow around guys living up in the woods, up in the mountains, killing animals for food. I do snowboard, extreme sport filming, some documentaries here and there, commercial work. You worked outdoor.

That new movie Unbranded. Unbranded, yeah. We took 16 wild mustangs from Mexico all the way up to Canada. It took us five and a half months. I rode about 1,000 miles of the ride. Did you really? Yeah. Learned a lot about horses.

And you were riding? I rode, yeah, 1,000. Were you trying to film from the horse? We did. We did film with a little DSLR camera off the horse, and then we'd get off the horse, run ahead about until we were out of breath, set up a shot, and they ride by, and then we'd get off the horse run ahead about until we were out of breath you know set up a shot and they ride by and then we have to catch up with them and we know we did that for 3,000 miles me and my buddy Phil Baraboo and uh no it was a good success

you guys got to check it out it's on Netflix right now. Phil Baraboo filmed three meat eater shows. He did. Sorry, Mo. I've seen it on Netflix. I haven't seen it yet, but I've seen the card. It got heavy treatment on Netflix. I'm excited to see it now, man. I've had it queued up a couple times.

You can't go wrong with cowboys. Now, I'm going home directly to watch it, man. Does the movie, does it take a pro wild horse or does it try to stay, like how does it fall on the political, not the political, but there's a debate about wild horses where some people feel like we should treat them like a native wild animal and some people feel like it's feral livestock.

We're right down that middle line there they explain they they explain that debate everyone yeah gets their you know fair share of as far as like debating their side and i think we did a good job at keeping it right down the middle explain both sides of the story and in the end you know you you kind of make up the decision about you know i guess there is no end for the horse like there is it's an open-ended story really i think we need to hunt them you know and eat them now speaking of that we're up on prince will's island right now i want to get back to that i definitely get back to that it's not like oh this world i want to get back that that's real important that to get back to that. It's not like, oh, this world. I want to get back to that because that's real important that you just said that. We're on Princeville's island. We're just out running shrimp

traps tonight and Moe is naming off a number of places where he's eating horse. Yeah. I mean, and enjoyed it. I haven't introduced you. I was getting to that but I was just kind of ease into it bridging off. I'm an aggressive host. I'm an aggressive host. It's called a segue in editing. I was kind of trying ease into it, bridging off. I'm an aggressive host. I'm an aggressive host.

It's called a segue in editing. I was kind of trying to build a nice natural one. Oh, sorry. Please. Yeah, I'm Morgan or Mo Fallon. The first time we worked together was almost eight years ago now on a number of little pilots as you were coming. Was I married or not married? That's how I would know when it was.

You were married. So it was eight years ago. Yeah, you know, kind of based on, I guess, your philosophies and lifestyle and, you know, stuff. And then did a show for a travel channel together, for which I was the director of photography. And then moved on to start doing these, the Meat Eater shows, which I was originally the director of photography. And then moved on to start doing these, the Meat Eater shows,

which I was originally the director of photography on. Then I kind of segued into directing, which was the beginning of me starting to direct things, which is what I've continued on doing, moving from cinematography to directing. So I've been a cinematographer for 15 years. Yeah. When you did, because you worked on, when you were young, like just starting out,

you worked on Ali. Big feature films, yeah. Yeah, I was Michael Mann's assistant for two years right out of school, which was kind of an amazing experience. And he made Miami Vice. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he made uh like miami vice yeah i mean he yeah he made my advice the tv show but he also made i mean his great films are like last of the mohicans which is like a masterpiece he he he i think is it's it's also a masterpiece yeah dude um inside uh the insider that, that's also a masterpiece.

Uh, you know, I mean, dude, Collateral is a good film. Uh, maybe not a masterpiece, but. You still talk to him? You know, I ran into him at the Director's Guild in LA, uh, like a few months ago at a screening for The Revenant. Um, it was really interesting. I hadn't seen him in almost 15 years uh as uh you know and i was a 24 year old kid coming out of film school and worked for you know directly for one of the biggest directors in the world i i went from like you know living in a crappy dorm room to like flying on a private jet, you know, to Africa.

Yeah, yeah. It was a real head trip. How'd that happen? Not to interrupt. No, you know, it was interesting. I got a two-day job as a PA to fill in for someone in his office. Explain what that means. It's a production assistant job. It's like entry level in film and television production

as a production assistant. Can I interrupt real quick? Yeah. We have a role that we made up called a WPA. Right. Wilderness Production Assistant. Yeah. That would be a level above a normal PA because it requires some additional skills that are somewhat esoteric.

For me, it was like, can you make coffee and clean up a coffee room? Like literally make coffee. Yeah. That would be a job. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, make coffee the way Michael likes coffee made. Which, trust me, is a high-pressure situation. If you think it's not a high-pressure situation, you don't know Michael Mann. So when you're doing that, are you thinking, oh, yeah, I'll wind up directing shows?

I mean, does it just seem like how in the world do you do that? But I thought I'd end up directing feature films. I really thought I'd go down like a narrative and feature film path. But the more and more – the more I was exposed to like documentary filmmaking, the more I realized that it really fits my – I guess my God-given talents, you know, my particular set of like inherent skills, you know, better than, you know, looking at a script and making a feature film, which is very like a very, I mean, look, it's an art form, so I'm not talking down on it at all, but it's a very contrived art. And I don't think that was particularly right for me in the end. But what was very right was documentary, which is you exist in the moment, and you use your instinct and your skills

uh you know and your problem solving on a moment-to-moment basis which uh for me was like very appealing because you're figuring out the story as you go along you know tell the others tell the show you worked on for a long time. Can you talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah, yeah. Biggest loser? Biggest loser? Yeah. Oh, yeah. For how many years did you do that?

I did three years of Biggest Loser, 96 episodes. And then talk about what you've been doing in the three and a half years since you – because we worked together for years. I mean, together together for years. We were still in communication all the time, but we worked together together for years. I mean, together together for years. We were still in communication all the time, but we worked together together for years. And then we still work with the same company. Yes.

But now you do, you direct episodes of. Yeah, so I direct a couple of different shows now. A show called Mind of a Chef, which is based on, I mean, it is what it is. It's, you know, eight episode seasons of based on a chef. So we'll pick a chef and like kind of dissect their life, their philosophies. And that's a really, that's a very, very fun show to work on because it's like total creative freedom we can look at you know we can look at a chef and and come up with all kinds of wild ways to tell their story um then i also am a cinematographer

and director on anthony bourdain parts unknown which is a show on cnn which is like a food, travel, culture, kind of political, kind of everything else kind of show, which is a little different in that it's a host-based show. So it's one host all the time, Anthony Bourdain, and it's really his looking at the world through his filter. How many of those did you do every year? I used to shoot, when I was just shooting them, I would shoot eight or nine a year.

And now that I'm directing them, that really limits the amount you can get out. So I do two, maybe I'll do three next year directing. And then I'll probably shoot two of them as well. Not directing? Not directing, but as a cinematographer but that's about as much time as i can get in you know because i mean directing you're you know you're you're two and a half months in or two months in pre-production just sitting at a computer you know then you're 10 11 12 days in the field filming and then you're you know another six to eight weeks or so sitting in front of a computer

again as you edit the you know as you edit the show yeah it's engrossing yeah it's engrossing man it's engrossing they're little films you knowgrossing. They're little films, you know. But, yeah, I mean, really a very rewarding show as well. So, yeah, and then, you know, hopefully more of these now, man. Yeah. Modus did his first. Was that your first guesting? Yeah, man. Guesting on a show?

Yeah, it's funny. After all this time, it's the first time I've really been on camera for the duration of a show. And felt kind of what it's like to stand on the other side and have someone point a camera at you and be like, Okay, so now say something cool. And try to come up with interesting shit that you think people would want to hear. And you're forced to – you have to appreciate the importance of coming up with something because you deal with the other end of trying to put the stuff together later. You realize it's no good when you bomb out.

Yeah, definitely. You get into some weird – in my position here, you get into some weird Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty kind of stuff where you're like i'm kind of i realize as i'm doing this i'm kind of tainting the process i mean if you're like going to talk about like pure documentary stuff just the fact that i have so much inside knowledge i'm like i was aware as we went through this process that i was like clearly manipulating some things from the inside, you know,

because I know the later product. Yeah. I know how it'll cut together and how it'll all work. And you know, um, the hardest thing with shows like this, which is that, you know,

it's very, very difficult to get the amount of ideas and material that you want to get across to tell a story into 22 minutes you know it's it is a real uh difficult process you know when we sit around let me come back next i want to keep yeah i want to keep yeah no i'm gonna say what i was gonna say real quick because i'll forget when we sit around we'll be like yeah we want to like we, yeah, we want to – like, coming up, we want to do an episode about dads, right?

Yeah. Giannis, his dad, you know, brought him up hunting and has a lot of really interesting ideas about what he thought his kids would get out of going to hunting camp and being exposed to this sort of cycle of, there's a handful of guys that hang out and they meet every year and, and sort of how you interact and how you kind of come together and, and fulfill, you know,

and pursue goals and, and come into this, this camp and assign people different tasks and make the whole thing work smoothly and get along well and bury differences and know what subjects are sort of just not good to bring up and just how to hang out. And he felt that it was like a great gift to his son to bring him in that world. We've had these conversations, so we're like, okay, we should do an episode dads you know and janice's dad's always dreamed of going on a moose hunt

so we're gonna take him on a moose hunt cool and um and in the end you know we keep talking about like the dad's thing right like janice's dad the dad's thing to us it feels that way when you watch it'll be like these guys were hunting moose and there was this and there's that there's a bear and oh yeah someone's dad was there and it'll be like but you but it really feels like you're going to you really feels like you want to make a comment about dads definitely yeah because it's so it winds up being in this kind of thing where there's all this like uncertainty and action stuff and you know shooting guns and chopping animals up and shit like the thing you were wanting to talk about sometimes only winds up being a hint.

Yeah, but if I can interject real quickly before you move on too, one of the reasons why that's so difficult to do is that if you were to make a show where you're like, I want to talk about dads, and you came out of the gate just swinging and wanted to relay all your information and all your thoughts and feelings about dads and all the stuff you want to get across in a show. So it would feel so phony and preachy and, and, you have to divulge a story that you know is is kind to the audience you know that allows the audience to get a sense of tone

and place and feel a sense that they're they're involved in the story that they have some stake before you're able to sell high concept ideas you And so you realize in a 22-minute show, by the time you've set all that stuff up and you've brought them into the experience and you want to now divulge your information, you have very little time to do that and then tell the rest of the story points that get you from A to B. Like you got to then actually kill a moose and then butcher a moose and then have a meal out of that moose. It just becomes that the time to get ideas across is so whittled down that what you end up with is like, well, okay,

what's the most concentrated salient point that I can interject at this one particular place where i can get an idea in um because that's about my only shot to have it become the show about dads exactly i think of it as being somewhere between 90 10 and 80 20 like we just wanted we did a thing we wanted to think about aldo leopold okay when it's all said and done it'll be probably about if you if you broke out the minutes or the seconds or whatever maybe about 10 yeah about the one thing we talked about going into it yeah that's that sounds about right but that's the i mean those are like the shackles of the 22 minute

you know um format it just well we're saying 22 minutes we're talking about a 30 minute television that's right like once you cut out the ads, you got 22 minutes. That's a standard form for the television industry. It's like a half-hour 22, a one-hour 44. You find that a 44-minute show seems like it should be harder to make, and it's way, way easier to make a good one you know um because you actually have some breathing room and some time that you can you know that you can get your ideas across and really like structure something that is interesting for people to watch

takes them brings them into the story and the experience and is like coherent, you know? Yeah. So anyways, you know, but I like them. Personally, I like the 22s because they're very challenging. You know, they're challenging. And when you get a good one, you like feel real proud of that. And it's a nice digestible size show for people to watch. I used to hate it, but now I like it. Yeah. I think it's better

in a lot of ways when you can do it well. Rick? My name is Rick Smith. I'm not a hunter, but I filmed a lot of wildlife stuff and started

writing and helping produce some of the apex predator episodes with Remy, who was like the master hunter. So it was good. I, I always knew I wanted to get your first times being out hunting. Yeah.

Yeah. I always felt some of the wildlife stuff that I was doing was like hunting with a camera, you know, a lot of grizzly bear stuff where you're stalking and getting close, but it was just with a, with a camera in some ways. So it felt pretty natural to do it. Uh, but I really respected the ZBZ who, who makes all this stuff, uh, with no reservations. So as I was coming up as a, uh, in up in film school and figuring out what I wanted to do, I saw no reservations. And I was like, that's the kind of stuff I wanted to make.

Stylistic, beautiful, but it felt very authentic. And so I was super excited to start working on Apex. And then this is my second meat eater show. We did Old Mexico. and yeah it was awesome now what what so you went to film school yeah how did you get into did you go into being like that you wanted to film wildlife uh i mean i didn't i really had no idea i was my undergraduate degree was in biology and i knew i didn't want to be a biologist. Did you know what that meant? Being a biologist?

Yeah. Like, no. I mean, did it wind up being like a university thing? Right. Well, I did research, and all the professors I spoke with were like, it's not really – nobody seemed very enthused about what they were doing. I think that's just a matter of old people just talking about work period. But I wasn't convinced that I was going to be able to do what I wanted to do, which is largely go on a lot of adventures. So I thought, ah, documentary film. I like film.

I like film and stuff. I had no idea what that meant. And I went to a grad program in Bozeman. It's an MFA in science and natural history documentary film, and I had no idea what that meant. Call me back up. It's a what? It's a science and documentary film enrolled in it? Yeah, so the premise was to take people trained in science and train them in filmmaking.

It was like you and another guy? No, it's, I mean. No, that makes sense. There's like a lot of people in filmmaking. Was it like you and another guy? No, it's, I mean. No, that makes sense. There's like a lot of people in there. Well, in Bozeman, it's like, yeah, there's all these folks that are, I mean, it's kind of taken over the industry, at least in some aspects of it. A lot of guys working for the BBC.

Yeah, that makes sense. Winning some big awards, producing stuff for Nat Geo. A lot of folks work for NASA. I mean, it's, but it's the skill set is kind of you know um it's not uh exclusive you're trained as a scientist then you have to learn like storytelling so it takes a little while to figure it out but um yeah it's a weird program but i wanted to be in bozeman and i and I didn't know what else to do. So break it down how you were just recently doing a job, but your job was just go out and collect footage of animals doing animal shit. Yeah. With just like...

Behavior, yeah. So, I mean, a big part... Like a checklist? Well, a big part of the natural history filmmaking deal is you're having to tell stories with just animals. There's no host. There's nothing. They call it blue chip wildlife, television or film. And, yeah, you're shooting behavior and the progression,

whether it be over the course of a season, but these animals' lives in a way that people can watch it and actually care. I mean, when you're out hunting, you start to, if you watch an animal long enough, you start to understand their story. You often catch them at the tail end of their life, too. That's exactly right. But when you have hours and hours of watching an animal, well, the story unfolds slowly and over the whole season.

But to do it in a 22-minute show or 44 minutes, you have to be very, I guess, precise about the imagery you get that tells the story of the animals that are out there. Well, okay. You know when you're watching a shitty wildlife documentary? Yeah. And they'll show like a rabbit just looking like a rabbit and then they show a raptor yeah and then they show a rabbit and then they show a raptor and then they show a rabbit and then they show a raptor and you never see the raptor and the rabbit together and then all of a sudden there's a raptor that maybe is the same one or maybe a different one eating some nondescript hunk of meat

on a fence pole right and they build it out as though the raptor like total artifice right so yeah do you make those things well we're trying not to but uh the show that i'm working on is for the smithsonian channel um and in the grand scheme of like natural of natural history films that the BBC makes, really expensive. A lot of days in the field. So it's a time-intensive, money-intensive thing to make a good natural history show. The show I'm working on doesn't have a huge budget, but we're trying to not make it suck. So you're trying to get both things in the same shot. You're trying to be, just like we're talking about this show, you're trying to get both things in the same shot. You're trying to be, just like we're talking about this show,

you're trying to be authentic. And the audiences, they can read bullshit. Yes. And there's maybe a percentage of the population that doesn't care one way or another. But good documentary film has a level of authenticity to it. So the audience, at the end of the day, knows if they're getting fucked with, if something's happening, like if there's the rabbit and the raptor and they never actually interact.

But, yeah, you can construct the narrative in a way that doesn't reflect the actuality of what happened. And, I mean, that's just the reality of making documentaries, right, in some ways? But what are you beginning with? Like, what is your... When you're doing a job like that, when you wake up in the morning, are you just a slave to whatever happens that day? Or do you have

a very precise thing you're after? Just like the shows that you decide you want to make about dads, like, you know, we have a premise that we want to go shoot. And you're aware of the premise. Yeah. You know, the overall structure. But in the end. Like the year of a bear, let's say.

Right. Right. But you're sort of, the story is going to reveal itself in whatever actually happens. To some degree. You can try to, I don't know, enable a certain situation to occur or be there at the right time in the right place, but more or less you get what you get out there. And what percent of your work you do in national parks? What percent you do out of national parks?

Yeah. So I, I mean, mean i do i don't do a ton of just pure natural history stuff most of my work has been host-based adventure filmmaking where i'm following a host yeah much like yourself doing something and and it's kind of a hybrid of pure natural history with with some you know with a with a some humans in there. But most of it, any good wildlife sequence, most of it takes place in situations where the animals are habituated. This doesn't mean they're not wild places, but they're used to seeing people. You go to a place where certain animals are not used to seeing you, and they're just going to run away.

They're just going to be like, or I mean, if it's super novel, maybe they'll like come close to you, but more or less you have to be in a place where it's like a weird congregation where your chances of seeing something are pretty good. And the distances required, like,

I mean, to get a decent shot, even with a huge telephoto lens less than 100 yards gotcha so that's that's close when it comes to these animals that don't want to be around you so but when that guy finally got that shot of the snow leopard in is it what's the program planet earth yeah i heard that he was like a thousand yards or some absurd distance away. He was really far, but that was

a place that was like a known place. But he definitely spent a lot of time in a blind. Yeah, but he spent like three weeks in a blind for that shot. For that shot. But I know another guy that's working on a show. I think it's funded by the Chinese, but I think it's funded by the Chinese,

but I think it's for Disney Nature. And he got some amazing stuff in Tibet. Snow leopards. Snow leopards. Like way close. And it was largely because they had a set of individual cats that were okay with their presence. And they never put the stock on. They never threatened them because the cats

know they're there. And they, I mean, I think they got some amazing stuff. So it's really finding individuals or populations that allow you to get close enough to tell the story that otherwise mostly can't be

told. Most wild animals don't want anything to do with people. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there,

OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast.

Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet.

onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. So, I was talking to these guys at down in Fort Bragg, the uh i can't remember what one of the one one of the special forces groups is based out of fort bragg i can't remember what number and i went down there to hang out and these guys told me a story that one night they were in a pass

in afghanistan staking out a pass did i tell you you this? I think you might have, but that's a good story. Tell Dottie. They catch some suspected Taliban guys coming through the pass. They start shooting at them and one of them is carrying a big recoilless rifle. They wing the guy.

He drops the rifle. His friends drag him back down out of sight. The guy sat there all night with a thermal scope, watching so he could hit whoever came out to get that rifle because he knew someone was probably going to come get that rifle. As he's watching that night, a snow leopard came out and smelled the blood where that guy got hit, and he saw it.

That's awesome yeah a lot of people will never lay myself included will never lay eyes on one of those things just cat cats peter matheson wrote a whole damn book never saw one yeah yeah it's like it's a good book though no it's like mountain lions out around bozeman or there was one at msu montana state university there was one spotted on campus at like 2 in the morning. I got a text alert, like watch out for the mountain lion. But there's cats out there and you'll

never see them. And they're there watching you. And they're mostly never going to do anything. They don't eat people. Otherwise they would eat people, right? I mean, they kill like a deer a week or something.

I thought they ate hikers in LA. Oh, I mean, you have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning. I'm not saying this as a critic. Introduce yourself, Eric, now that you've ruined the entire conversation.

My name is Eric Osterholm. I'm a producer and director at the same company that Mo works at and that your show's produced on, 0.0. And, yeah, I mostly have done travel, adventure, production. Yeah, all around the damn world yeah all around the damn world all around the damn world yeah lots of crazy stories from different corners remote places but uh my first hunt was actually or that i was anywhere near was with you five or six years ago my doll sheep hunt is that right yeah i've never been on before. And then before then and after then, you worked for other...

Yeah, I bounced around a bit. Like freelance lifestyle. Freelance lifestyle, yeah, which I think Corey and Rick here also enjoy and Mo has in the past, bouncing between different shows, different adventures in different corners of the world. I lived in Alaska for a little bit doing a rescue show which was pretty wild. Rescued a couple hunters in remote spots.

Really? What was your problem? I just remember it's all kind of blended together. I do remember there was an 82-year-old guy who was just out on a remote island and off on his own. Had hunted all his life and was,

you know, ended up having to call in to be rescued, but really didn't actually want to be rescued. He was just tough as nails and kind of just wanted to like a resupply of some water and some food so he could keep hunting. So it was, yeah, some interesting,

uh, yeah, some interesting experience. You called 911? No, no, no, no.

It's not getting carried away. Water. Some water. Some Bobo bars. What was he hunting for? I don't know. It was a really long time ago. But I imagine probably, it was up near Sitka.

So I don't know what's on the islands outside of Sitka. Deer. Yeah, probably deer. Probably deer. Yeah. But yeah, everything from rescue shows to been down to Antarctic a couple times, spent some time in Afghanistan, lots of different places. Lots of Africa. Yeah, lots of Africa.

Yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest takeaway is something that we were talking about earlier today, which is just perspective. You gain so much perspective on different people's, where they came from, their perceptions, and it helps you not to jump basically to conclusions because everyone has a completely different paradigm. You realize very quickly when you step outside

of your own neck of the woods, so to speak. It's a little shocking. Yeah, yeah. Surprising. And now you're full-time. You're a full-timer. Surprising. And now you're full-time. You're a full-timer. Yeah. Yeah, very recently full-time at CPZ and just moved to Montana, which is exciting.

I was reluctantly living in Manhattan for a long time. I left Colorado. There aren't as many trees or mountains for me in Manhattan, so I was kind of running around like a nutcase. I think people saw me and my bike pulling my skis behind me through Manhattan, kicking off yellow cabs quite often or ice climbing stuff in my backpack. Heading where? Heading either to get to a train or a plane to escape. Oh, to go in. Yeah, to escape out.

I remember one time walking in new york and i'd found a a deer skull in wyoming and gave it to chris and lydia who own 0.0 or you know two of the yeah the founders and uh a while later they pointed out to me that there's these little pyramids of dust underneath the skull all the time and i realized there's still some pyramids of dust underneath the skull all the time. And I realized there's still some dermifted beetles or like some carrion beetles living in the skull. And they were still active. And I was like, well, I'm going to take it home and clean it. So I'm walking.

I didn't have anything to put in it. So I'm just walking down into the subway station with a deer head. A skull with antlers on it. Some dried hair and stuff on it still. This guy sees it. And he's so insistent that I sell it to him that he comes into my,

he like gets into my subway car with me. Just, he's flabbergasted about his thing. Any amount of money is fine. You know? And I'm trying to explain to him, like, listen, you don't understand.

The nation is awash in these things you just don't know because where you live that they're laying on the side of the road this is not like like this seems very unusual you know it seems like highly unusual it's just not you can you don't need to give me hundreds you can can go get a forky deer antler. It's a big world out there, buddy. And it's full of deer skulls. Did you want to take the money at one moment? Here's the thing.

I would have in a second, but I'd already given it to Chris and the lady. They loved it. But they just didn't want it in their office. He didn't even know. He said, every time I pick it up, there's little sawdusty things underneath it. They're still in there eating the whatever out of there. So I couldn't then go like, oh, hey, I know you want me to take it home and clean it, but I sold it to a guy on the subway.

Here's your cut. But yeah, perspective. Now, Dirt, you, Dirt Myth, explain again why, not why they call you, but explain Dirt Myth. I feel like this is my favorite story in the world. I had a, that's the name of my photography company. And it came from, I had a speech impediment when I was young. And I'd introduce myself as Dirt Myth, Garrett Smith. Because you couldn't say Garrett Smith.

Yeah, I said Dirt Myth, amongst other wrong words, which still happens. I still make up words occasionally, but not as bad. Nobody's calling him Dirt. Yeah. It's a compliment. Garrett does more on this production than I. He does everything.

He's running the podcast machine right now. He's mixing the audio. I'm just pretending. He's running the podcast machine right now. He's mixing the audio. I'm just pretending. He's a horse in the field. He must have had a 100-pound pack with a camera with sticks on your shoulder the whole time. I don't know, but I was saved by Rick and Eric

when I about went down the mountain with that weight. That was scary. That was a close call. We joke about it was a pretty Yeah, that was a close call. It's true. We joke about, like, oh, you know, it was pretty sketchy terrain or tough terrain. I mean, there was a point that Garrett fell, and if he didn't stop tipping over with a big pack on, he would have died. Oh, no.

Lost a leg. I mean, you were inches away from the tipping point from which you would not have regained control. Yeah. You wouldn't have walked out of there. I don't want to say you would have died. It was significant consequences. You think Yanni's got problems.

We're joking about Dirt self-arresting with a hunk of his own leg bone. That was about it. This is classic. Garrett, just in general, everything's okay all the time, even if it's not not. As he's falling, he says, I'm okay.

As of right now, I'm good. Before I go over this little cliff. Don't rip my new pants. Still in motion, yeah. And then you're like, watch the pants. Someone's holding onto your pants to keep you from pitching over a 30-foot drop. But, you know, everybody knows the midnight ride at Paul Revere. There was the midnight hike of Dirt Mill.

That was heroic, man. What kind of, but not really, because I messed up. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot. Later, when you explained what you were seeing, I realized that was a heroic effort, man. No matter whether you messed up or not. How many times did we check our GPS on the way down? Yeah.

A lot. Yeah, that was a heroic effort. On the way up. No GPS hiking out at night in, this is rough terrain in parts, in a really thick environment. In a bushwhack sense, if you rated bushwhacks, and there is a bushwhack rating scale I'm interested in looking at. It was explained to me. But it would have to be on a 1 to 10. This is like an 8 bushwhack.

Yeah, definitely. Because there's no Devil's Club. There's no Devil's Club. That's right. 9 or 10. Yeah, I've been up the up that hill that's that is a nine or ten man but no devil's club but it is i mean that's sick that's it's just like yeah it's confusing to come down in the dark at night with only the range of

view of your headlamp alone. I think the choice to go down the drainage, which we initially were like, uh-oh, he's going down the drainage. That was a good move. Again, though, teamwork. I had communication with you guys. Yeah, we had radio. Once I knew that that would empty close,

it was an easy call. So that was a good effort. You were moving with fear motivating you. It took us about two and a half going down with heavy packs. You ripped down there. You got down pretty quick. Man, I was nervous. Why didn't you come back up, man?

I wondered if there was bourbon down here. I was like, whatever it takes. I was hoping you'd bring the bourbon back up. I thought about it. Dude, I want to address that the fish shack used to have such an ample. The alcohol section used to run from that first aid kit over to that really old bottle of separated honey. And it was just like, it was four and a half feet of liquor. Yeah.

It's down to two Bacardi bottles. Empty. You know the dimple on the bottom of the bottle? The Bacardi doesn't come up to the feet of liquor. Yeah. It's down to two Bacardi bottles that have... You know the dimple on the bottom of the bottle? The Bacardi doesn't come up to the bottom of the dimple. And then a thing of Jagermeister's... A thing of Jagermeister's has been here, I think, since we bought this place. Well, who drinks Jagermeister, man? I don't know.

I mean... Someone thought it was a good idea to bring up. That way you're guaranteed to always have a little bit of liquor. Mo, explain why we went up the mountain. Why we went up the mountain? Yeah, just talk about what we were doing. This particular time? Yeah.

We were on deer hunt. Yeah. This was my second deer hunt. Yeah, I didn't say first deer hunt. No, I know. Oh, okay. Just trying to tell the story, man. But I like to start with a solid, you know.

Be authentic. I have a way of devolving the story. Listen, man, I don't know why I'm directing you, man. I guess it's just like a chance I have to direct you, and I just can't turn it down. No, that's fine. Yeah, it was my second deer hunt um but more importantly than any of that it was this is the this is the spot of kind of our first real um you know our first

real like endeavor in this in this field um or in this genre like together you know working we had done we had done some of the pilots like i said ramping up but those were really just like dicking around getting to know each other kind of ramping up figuring out what a show would be we came here six years ago on the travel channel show uh wild within on the first episode um and it was the first time that like all the gears were kind of engaged and we were really going after the kind of show that we ultimately wanted to make.

And that people would see. Yeah, and that would be kind of out there in the public eye. And it was interesting that you have to also kind of take into consideration the context at that time, like six years ago with what was available on TV. But on mainstream television, people weren't doing content about hunting. Even at that time, I know there were executives within the network there that were leery about what we're doing. And we're constantly trying to put their shine on it. We're like, like well it's

not a hunting show and i'd be like well sure there's a lot of really because we're doing a lot of hunting so you know um but i think people were and i understand their position i i you know i think it was people were very leery of like how that would be accepted on like a mainstream network you know um but besides that it was the first time that we had the funding and in the crew and the implementation of the technology and kind of a little bit of the know-how to go out and kind of figure out what you know how would we do this in an authentic way um that that that wouldn't either you know ruin um the standards that we hope to achieve in terms of television production, but also wouldn't ruin the hunt, which is a delicate balance.

I mean, cameras are difficult animals in and of themselves. They're very finicky, and they require a lot of attention and know and a lot of input i mean just to keep them working well no not just not even just to keep them working but to keep you know to keep like myself as a camera operator or a dp at that time in a position that i would be getting a shot that would be actually telling a story you know what i mean so meaning to say what i'm what i'm getting at is a very complex way of saying that like it's hard not to spook animals because you know we want to tell the story in a way that's the most conducive to like divulging a story and building a story and

making it entertaining and exciting and like we're good at that. I know exactly where I would ideally like to be, you know, on various shots. And by shots, I mean, camera shots, you know, to, to document a hunt. That is not necessarily conducive to what, what, you know, actually stocking up on an animal requires, you know, so there was a lot of, there was a lot of learning in that. You know, but like I said, it was, you know, that was the full time, first time we were full up and running and going. And it was a very, like a very, I think a very exciting time in all of our lives because we were really figuring out and writing the genre, like as we went along, because no one had really done a show, I think, like this. And by the way, I don't know enough of what was out there

at the time in the hunting world to be 100% correct about this. So maybe people are like, well, you're not taking into consideration this show or that show or the work of this person or that person. But in my perception and to the extent that I know... Well, you're not taking into consideration this show or that show or the work of this person or that person but in my perception and to the extent that i know you're familiar with network television i'm familiar with network television for sure but um what i'm trying to say is that i don't i don't know that there was a hunting show that was doing kind of what we were trying to do at that time. We had talked a lot then about like hunting shows as being made by hunters who were interested in picking up a camera and like documenting what they were seeing, but didn't necessarily have like the television savvy to be like, well, here's how you articulate like a complex

narrative with dramatic highs and lows and, you know, tell a beautiful and like cinematic story that has some like gravitas, you know? We were like, we were TV folks that didn't know anything about hunting, really didn't particularly know anything about being out of doors, you know, who had become by virtue of like meeting you and getting to understand your world,

interested in making shows about hunting and about this world and about how you live. And that was like a steep learning curve when those worlds came together. Because it's not like in a normal job, job like i'm working big as a loser like i show up at 11 o'clock in the morning at call time hit the burrito truck you know for craft service and go get my camera ready and like there's a whole list of shots and just stuff to accomplish this was like really writing the entire textbook as we went along because we didn't know how a show like this would work and it was very exciting to pull a crew up that mountain pull a crew back down that mountain have a successful hunt you know um and figure out that a lot of us just had no idea what we were doing

outside but what i'm really the most proud of in in the whole process is that we were able to go in and like not know what we were doing and really you know make some mistakes um on that first show even though we walked away with a pretty successful show i still really like that episode oh yeah turned out yeah um to then be able to like reassess figure out like what we needed to tweak how we needed to do things and be a little bit better the next time and like be a little bit better the next time be a little bit better next time to the point where we actually we refined it into a show that like really worked man where we weren't we were not a footprint that was affecting the quality of like the hunts

we understood how to act around animals we understood how to um you know how to make the the like the hunting endeavor successful but at the same time we didn't sacrifice like the beauty and the dynamics of like the show and what we wanted to achieve in television and and that was like that's a really that was a really tricky balance like for reasons i said before about where the shot kind of wants to be you know yeah i want to i want to jump in because that's something that even just now on we just did you know we just filmed the hunt right now yeah that it's this it's one of the primary things i think about when we're out is Even just now, we just filmed a hunt right now. Yeah. It's one of the primary things I think about when we're out is, for instance, I'm not having a very clear start.

So we're out hunting black-tailed deer. Now, you're going through coastal rainforest. It's very thick. And you come on these openings. Yeah. We call them muskegs. We get to the edge of the opening. I want to call. In my mind,

the perfect thing that would happen would be that I would hit the edge of the muskeg. I would settle in, wiggle into the ground, try to become the ground or try to become a tree. All the camera guys would just lay down.

Right? But they know that they have to do a job. And the minute any of them move, I want to, on one hand, be like, lay down! But on the other hand, I'm like, well, the reason we're all here

is because they're filming yeah it's like perfect perfect tension right what's your guys like what what's your guys perspective i mean do you feel me giving you the evil eye oh yeah oh yeah it's not it's good though no no there's there's a real, right? If you don't film it, then you have no show. But if you spook the animal, then you also have no show. So there's two competing no shows that are possible. So you're trying to figure out how to balance it. And I think what you guys did in creating this show was generally television, making television is about control

controlling all aspects as in like setting up setting up everything it becomes the the production becomes a production first subject matter second to control it and shoot exactly how you want to do it and have the hours that you want to have and everything. And this show is about, in some ways, the hunt first, and then the camera guys have to figure it out. That was a clear decision from the very beginning, was that the hunt would be authentic and the hunt would be the process. And we would accept whatever the outcome of that was, whether it was a failed hunt or a successful hunt. And that the, what it really took was, I don't brag about a lot of things.

I am an excellent, excellent camera operator. And what it really took was having a team that was like kind of at that level. Because the language of camera is extremely articulate. There's thousands and thousands of variations. What does that mean? What it means is that, I'm kind of was trying to go on to explain that, but there's thousands of variations

of what you can do with a particular shot to tell um to tell a story right um for example a shot that there's a couple shots that became hallmarks of this show that i was like emphatic about from the very beginning that they they have to be because i had watched some hunting shows and i had seen like things like you were talking about earlier with the separation of the raptor and the rabbit yeah i've seen that on hunting shows where they show an animal and then they show a dude and and they they feel disparate from the very beginning to me i didn't i was not super interested in like the kill shot like the perfectly framed kill shot. I was very interested in integrating the hunter into the kill shot.

So the over-the-shoulder shot of you taking a shot at an animal was absolutely mandatory to me. It's nice because it works well in terms of how your silhouettes line up and in terms of the animal's field of view. So that one actually played to our advantage. Yeah, you're diminishing what it's seeing. Well, instead of two dudes out there, you see one dude. Another one for me.

But that's important to stick on because the effect it gives is that anyone who's ever gone hunting with their friend or whatever, like I would spend a lot of time hunting my brothers. And just the sneaking up on something. You're there. You don't sneak up side by side. No. Generally, there's the guy.

You're there. If you're calling for your friend or your friend's, it's his turn or anything like that, you're behind and you're sort of seeing the world through this kind of like this over-the-shoulder view. And it wind up, like in doing it that way, I felt really just felt so immediate like you were with someone in the woods. Organic. And that was, again. Because you don't always see what's going on. Perspective was the most important thing in developing this show.

It was that we needed to put the audience in the hunt. In order for a mainstream audience to accept this and really kind of understand it, in order to explain your philosophies in your world we had to put them in the context and so it had to be experiential if we had gone in and set up a bunch of shots you know the audience would have instantly dismissed it we were talking about my like kind of my mentor earlier um in michael man he used used to say people are like smart as people, but they're brilliant as animals. What he meant by that was that people have this extrasensory perception of

when shit is just wrong and bullshit. And people know, an audience knows. You look at shows that are out there you know when you're being shined on you might accept it as entertaining and be like oh fine I don't care

rabbits don't talk that's an extreme example I'm thinking more like survivalist shows where you look at something and you're like something just doesn't look right about that. That's not right. And it's like, yeah, it isn't right because that's back of a Walmart.

I've spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of days out in the woods. Yeah. Seldom is my face dirty. Right. It might get a little sweaty. Sure. But seldom is it dirty. But things like that, I mean, people do dirty but but things like that i mean people do pick up

people do pick up on things like that and i think we knew from the beginning that we were treading on like new ground in terms of mainstream audiences and and stuff like that and that that it had to be authentic that if we if we broke the if we broke the audience trust in any way in terms of the authenticity and what we were presenting, that we had really like lost the battle because we were trying to present a philosophy more than anything else, you know, and make it entertaining and all those things. But it really was like a philosophy, you know. So you can't lie to people. You can't be like, here's our philosophy and we really believe this and you're lying to them. You know what I mean? You have to tell the truth.

And the language of camera, the language of how you tell that is super, super important. You've got to bring people into the experience. I found early on that what would happen a lot was I was following you, but I wasn't looking at you. I was looking past you, right? I was looking in the woods past you and kind of like moving from side to side and seeing you kind of pass in front of me. So that became a shot. I was like, well, that needs to be a shot. I need to put people in that experience. So another shot I came up with that I really married into the language of the show was the long lens, meaning that I'm on a more of a telephoto side of the camera, pushing past your body, which is in soft focus in the foreground to the background, which was usually woods or something we were looking at, which is in focus. And by doing that, what I'm telling the audience is,

Steve's looking at those woods. Steve's examining those woods. We're now in a predatory mode. We're now down. We're hunkered like you see wolves stock in you know and our focus is what's in front of us what's happening in the foreground doesn't matter we're looking we're looking out we're hunting now and that became a very important shot that was a shot that put people in the moment that they could understand on a cerebral and like primal level you know like i'm saying there's a there's a language to all this and there's there's hundreds and hundreds of shots like that and and what the art is really in doing this is knowing the context knowing the experience and um and learning when to plug those different shots in because this is all happening in the moment.

It should be made clear to people that we didn't bullshit any of this. This was real stuff. These were real events. They were happening. We just over time learned what technique do you plug into what hole as you go along and divulge the story. What is going to accentuate the story what's going to bring people into that moment well what i think is important within that too is we talked earlier about 22 minutes yeah now when i'm

like like i think that when i when i when i was writing my Buffalo book, and I'm writing about the experience of being out looking for a Buffalo. Now, at a lot of times, in my head is stuff like, man, should I file for a deferment for my taxes this year? Or, man, I should call my mom more often. And all these other things but that's not part of what i'm talking about i'm talking about buffalo so you create sort of a distorted sort of you create sort of a distorted reality about what it is you're thinking about and what is you're talking about by highlighting certain elements what you're talking about. In chasing 22 minutes, over the course of seven days, eight days, chasing 22 minutes,

just in the fact that you might not be bullshitting, but you're selecting out a very, very small chunk of everything that occurred. Definitely. Synthesizing. Yeah. No, no. Definitely. Synthesizing. Synthesizing is not the right word. We are not synthesizing. What we're doing is condensing and it's a distillery.

A condense wouldn't be accurate. A condense would leave you 21 minutes of glassing and one minute of stalking. I don't agree with that. We should get out a dictionary. It is not. But it is definitely not synthesizing.

What does that mean? Synthesizing? Artificializing? Synthesizing would be to construct a reality. That's not what we're doing. We're selectively distilling the process down. A selective distillation. I would say we are constructing an authentic version.

So it is a synthesis in that it doesn't reflect the reality because the reality took place over eight days and it's now 22 minutes. But if you do it correctly, then it reflects the original experience in a way that is honest. You can do it in a lot of different ways. You can synthesize in a way that is totally different than that initial experience, or you can do it in a way that is pretty

closely parallels what you... Honest is probably the key word. Yeah, it's like with porn. With porn, you're not like, well, how did these two meet? They left out the part where they met. It's semantics to some degree. No, it is semantics. But I think that was a very good explanation.

The word synthesis has a connotation to me that I guess doesn't jive with the way that I view what we do. But I understand what you're saying, and I think we're exactly on the same page. Because there's so many versions, and the reason I respect, and I'm so happy to be working on this show, is that process, whether it be synthesis or distilling or condensing or any other chemical term we've got going here, is that you have to figure out a way to cram in this experience. It's long.

Nobody would ever actually in Norway, they do watch this stuff, slow TV. Have you heard about this? Eight days. But generally in America, we watch 22 minutes of something or a very short amount of time. But we film it over this long period, and we want to give the audience the best version of a way that they, one, will watch, but two, that they respect. And those two things together, man, it is really rough.

It's really hard to make that. It's very difficult to make, and it requires, like, as you go through the process of making a single show, it's of decisions of like well should we do this or we do that or now is now are we sliding over the edge of what's bullshit and you know now are we lying now are we telling the truth now is that you know it's a lot of balancing like that as you go through it because you are, you know, we can't say that this is a scientific analysis of like, of an experience.

It's not. I mean, we're by virtue of the fact of handing, you know, having our hands on it. Anytime an Avid or any other editing machine is involved in a process, you are affecting the reality. I mean, you're now writing a narrative. You know, what it is is, you know, we, I think, constantly were asking ourselves or constantly ask ourselves as documentarians,

does this fall within the bounds of what is generally perceived to be, you know, acceptable limitations on what is fair in documentary storytelling. And there's no set of rules for that, but I think we all kind of inherently, when we work in this genre, understand what those are and understand when we've crossed those boundaries. What was nice about this show is that I feel almost without exception that we never made those calls, even though they might've made more exciting shows. We fell within what we thought were the boundaries because I think that's the way we just wanted to live our life was to feel that we had done something that had some integrity, you know? Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes and our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that

they can't join our northern brothers get irritated well if you're sick of you know sucking high and titty there on x is now in canada the great features that you love in on x are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning gps with hunting maps that include public and crown land hunting zones aerial imagery 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it,

be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services hand-picked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's,

Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet on x maps.com slash meet welcome to the to the on x club y'all that's i mean it's it's like a whole field of study is authenticity in documentary film and

is that right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of very smart... Do they sit right next to the wildlife biologists who want to go into documentary? Well, we had to read some of that stuff. But there's this Werner Herzog who has made both fiction and nonfiction. One of my favorite...

One of my absolute favorite directors. So he talks about in documentary, there's moments that he creates through film that are more truthful than the reality of the situation. I'm familiar with that line of thought. Yeah, and in some degree

that's... But there was a high profile case. I shouldn't say high-profile. There's a medium-profile case where a woman was writing a memoir about her life and hardscrabble existence and how she wanted to be a writer but didn't get any support from her parents. And she wrote in her book and presented as fact that her father caught her with a typewriter and ceremoniously took the typewriter out and pulverized it with a sledgehammer turns out her old man bought the goddamn typewriter for her okay but she in her defense said well all things taken in his the way he viewed my wanting to be a writer was akin to had he smashed my typewriter so to make that point in a way that assisted the narrative yeah no right it's a fuck what i'm trying to say is it's like it's a it and

we've walked it many many times it's a very difficult balance yeah but she was over the edge yes clearly i'm pointing out she was over the edge. Yes. Clearly. I'm pointing out she was over the edge. People want to classify things as either fiction or non-fiction. Right. And it's not a helpful... It's not helpful. No, no. That's what I would say. It's not helpful.

Our 22-minute version show, it is an authentic version of what we experienced, but it's 22 minutes. You've got to cut some stuff out. We didn't film Garrett almost dying down this mountain. That would have been the best part. That would have been amazing. Or the night struggle we had.

Yeah, night, walk back. All these things just didn't make it because... We're shooting 200 minutes each. That's 600 minutes a day of footage. Yeah. You can't put all that in a show. You can't. So that's a show. You can't. So that's four days we shot.

2,400 minutes. What is that? I shot how many minutes altogether? I'd say 2,400 plus our little bonus cams here and there, 2,500 minutes. So we're using one out of every 100 minutes? But a one to 100 ratio is not surprising. I shot this year, I shot 100 hours of footage for a 44-minute show. 100 hours of footage.

Yeah, so we never know when the animal is actually going to be there either. So we're rolling full time. All the time. Because like this time. Yeah, all of a sudden it was like, yeah. And this is a perfect example of cameraman knowing what shot he needs to get director telling

okay I need the over the shoulder shot that Mo you know made as a part of the show I didn't make it I just recognized the value of getting an over the shoulder shot that contextualizes the whole experience.

But cameraman and the guy he's following is just in two different locations. And if he moves, you know, I should have moved with you when you went to that next location. And I just didn't. But that's when he shot the deer. Well, I was initially lined up over your shoulder, and I was good, and I was happy, and a great two-shot. Perfect. I would have been down the barrel.

I know. And then he moved, and I didn't go with him because I was scared that I was going to get yelled at by Steve. It's all bark and no bite. It's all bark and no bite. It's all bark and no bite. What am I really going to do? I know. I'm trusting.

When I'm evil eyeing and all that and yelling, whisper yelling. That's so much harder. Eyeball yelling. All I'm doing when I'm whisper yelling, all I'm doing is I'm basically saying this. I'm saying, I know that you need to do your job do your job in the best way you can that conforms to my ideal of you laying face down in the dirt well

that's exactly right so Eric is saying get the shot and I'm like I can't move yeah but what I would say about that situation I think you guys handled that situation perfectly we were on exposed face with a deer looking at us. No, he wasn't looking at us when we set up.

No, he wasn't looking at us when we set up. I summoned him. I moved because I knew if a deer popped out, it was going to blow your frigging eardrum out from where I was sitting. So I had to get in front of you. Once we made that call, no one was going to move. We were on an exposed face. I should have anticipated that because I could have moved with you. There was not a lot of space for you to be.

But all this means to say is like you do the – I mean with these things, you do the best you can with the situation you're handed. And you kind of accept what the best, you know, what the best you can do is. It's nice when you have the setup and the forethought and the time to be able to position yourself. And that for me was like a big learning curve on this show was was positioning when i got really good at it on the show i could position to the point where i would reveal animals by by moving slightly around steve like in the case of the moose in alberta which is a beautiful reveal and in the case of the javelina in texas um where like I knew where the animals were going to pop out,

and I was behind it, and I could just slightly move without spooking them and reveal something that the audience hadn't yet seen, like a moose standing in front of you. But, I mean, dude, it's hard. And you do what you can. Six people up there. Six people. We pull that off. I mean, we pull it off often.

That's a lot of... And it's going to read authentic, too. The other thing that happens is, even just hiking up into the area we wanted to hunt, we stopped at a musk egg, set up, called nothing. Stopped at a musk egg, set up, called nothing. Stopped at another musk egg, set up, called nothing. That was before we even got to where we were going. Yeah.

So this time, this goes on and on. We set up many places and wait. Nothing happens. And you start to get, there's like a fatigue kind of sets in. Like the first time, you might get your rest all. I get my backpack set. Just how I want to be. You know, everything's set. My scope's to be you know everything's right i got my

everything set my scope set you know and i'm ready the 11th time you're just kind of i was gonna lean against this tree and blow the call i'll start the rest out later i'm not saying you got that that happens to you but it happens to me yeah to where it's a thing that makes a good hunter it's always been like but this could be the time but i i will i i will say that i that is something i didn't feel vulnerable to when we were when we were really doing the show i did not feel vulnerable to fatigue or like oh you know i just don't want to do it no but i but i i'm'm guilty of it, and I even get to where, like, Corey will be asking me, give me the setup, give me the setup. I'm going to say, hey, we don't need a setup.

We're going to go up here and nothing's going to happen. Well, I just like to know where to be. You're telling me, you're like, hey, you stick out like a sore throne. So I was about ready to change my clothes. I was up there in fluorescent green. But it would have been helpful. It would have been helpful. Changed the battery.

Had I explained. Right. It would have been helpful had I said an hour ago, whatever the hell it was, we saw a deer, we watched a deer. I know we saw a deer. No, but I mean, just for not helpful for you you helpful for the show yeah had i done a oh we've now arrived at where we feel like a deer vanished yeah we're gonna blow a call and hopefully he'll pop his head up well but i'm like yeah i've been saying that for three days

dude i remember i remember having some epic fights with you, man, in the field about like, dude, just please tell us what's going on right now. Like day seven or eight or whatever on Audad, you know, we were going up after him. I was like, please just tell me. But I understand like the fatigue of just like day in, day out, us setting things up that then didn't pan out that are just going to hit the editing room floor, absolutely not making the show. So all of your ideas, emotional energy, all the stuff you put into producing content, it's like trying to wipe the slate clean and say, I'm sorry, man, I know you worked really hard on that, but it's a complete waste now. Now you have to reset it up. Now you have to reset it up.

Now you have to redo it again. And after a while, man, that's just so draining, dude. It's hard to do that over and over again. And I started to feel embarrassed. Yeah. You started to get like, because you're talking to the camera, but in a way you're talking to the guy holding the camera. Definitely.

That's a whole other thing we should talk about. So so you know it's like you know just on this trip quite like okay what's going on you feel like dude i've been telling you i mean you really want me to tell you this again there might be a deer over there this is this is an interesting thing because the relationship between the – specifically in this. Usually it's the relationship between the director and the subject. But in this, it really is a relationship between the camera operator, the director of photography, and the subject. Because you guys got the point of contact it can't you know a director we just in the in this context you really don't need another person walking out into the field of view of all these

animals you know so the camera operator directs a lot of that interaction in that relationship and it's a hard position to be in because you're asking really really obvious questions that you know but that you know that the audience needs to know so you're like i'd be often asking you things that you're like dude you know yeah you know that i'll be like yeah dude i know i know that but i just need you to say it. Yeah. You know? And, um, and there's a lot of like, there's a lot of trust and stuff involved in that.

There's a lot of like development of, of relationship involved in that. You know, that's the thing I've found is, uh, a benefit. There's a benefit to working with people. You had camera operators you haven't worked with,

and there's a benefit to the ones you have worked with. The ones you haven't worked with is we'll be going through the woods and I'll see something. And if it's a guy I don't know or don't know well, I'm going to turn on being like, well, turning to him, meaning turning to the camera. Yes. I mean, like, hey, check this out. So what happens is, you know, I'm all excited to like introduce him to this new subject. Yeah, exactly. I'd be like, you see this, you know, deal, do that.

And he'll go do this. And, you know, you see where bear he'll. And then later when you, it's like, then later when you're with someone you've had many experiences with. Yeah. You're kind of like, yeah, they already know all that shit. Anyways. Right. You just kind of go to the woods.

The advantage of the person, you know, is you get a real eye contact thing. Yeah. Where I'll be like, we're sitting here for hours. I'll have something I also want to say. And just, you know, like turn or raise my finger. Yeah. And we're doing it. Or like, you know, I kind of like just little signals.

I'm making signals so you can see my hands, listen to a podcast. But a little signal says a lot. a little signal says like no i mean seriously there's something standing right here yeah this is this like the way i'm waving my hand right now we both know means like this thing is extremely close yeah and there's a shorthand that develops that's helpful for it's helpful for actually hunting, but it's not helpful for doing the story. It's helpful for functionality. And what you ultimately hope is that you kind of have both of those. And that's a big part of directing this kind of stuff is learning how to establish a relationship but not contaminate the subject

right and and how to continually pump the subject we're like i've i have found that in in like documentary directing and a lot of documentary directing the most powerful weapon that I have as a director to try to move the story forward, to try to help the host progress the story, divulge information, stuff like that, is a smile. It's the weirdest thing. It's not talking. It's a facial expression of of interest so a lot of times when i'm working like like i'll work with chefs on these long projects i just finished one it was seven months of working with a chef that i didn't particularly get along with um but i spent more of my less of my time talking to him and more of my time smiling and nodding and being very interested in what he was saying with a couple little questions here and there kind of pulling him along. It's an interesting thing.

It becomes emotionally draining and it's hard to do. It's harder than you would think it would be to do. But that kind of interaction and freshness of interest on my part really can help pull that information out and no i and i would just say watching both mo and eric just during this whole uh shoot i worked with some directors that just are constantly exerting their own ego right on the situation yeah that's a big mistake and oh and it's and i've worked with these you know guys that have been in the industry for a long time, and that's what they do. They just are constantly basically trying to get the hands-off in a way and like use subtlety yeah is man way more skillful and leads to such a better product than uh it definitely does and what i like what i do when i go into a situation less with steve because steve and i like always

had a real natural simpatico in working together but in working with people that I have more difficulty with I will go I'll go into a scene with like two or three things that I do want the host to say but 95% of what I'm

getting them to deliver their own ideas things you want them to say or or things you want them to convey? Concepts. Concepts that I want them to convey. Not specific dialogue because I don't care how it comes out. But ideas that I know are important to the story arc we're trying to tell. Most of what I'll spend my time doing is, again, it's smiling and nodding and encouraging them to feel empowered to divulge their information and their ideas

and to feel like their ideas are valid and to feel like they have a voice and are empowered. That's super important and when you when a host feels confident when you know when a host feels like they're doing a good job and in control like it that the camera reads that a hundred percent i mean that makes a good host that's someone the audience can look at and be like well this is someone who clearly feels comfortable in their environment comfortable in the information they're divulging, you know. And then every once in a while, I'll pepper in like, hey, remember when we talked about this?

You know, and what you're constantly trying to do is, again, like empower the host. Remember when you said this? Remember when we talked about this? Remember when you had that idea of this? Remember when, you know, those kinds of things. Again, the host has a feeling then that they're coming up with a natural, organic idea. A lot of times they are, by the way, because it's all information that I got in pre-production interviews, you know, and stuff like that. It's just that I know that right now is the time to say that. You need it

delivered in a usable way at a usable time but i want it not just delivered in a usable way in like a soundbite i want it delivered in a confident way where the host feels comfortable and organic and those again when you talk about like the human bullshit meter when people are watching tv and they see someone that's empowered and feels like they really understand the the you know the context and feel good about what they're delivering people people buy that man people buy it mo did you feel i mean you were on camera this episode did you feel that feeling that hosts probably feel often about am i saying the right thing or am i coming across cross in like the right way like if there's a funny yeah sensitivity or ego that that comes with with being on camera that's different uh from being behind the camera where you do think

like oh i just said a bunch of shit does like Am I saying it right? Is this good shit? Because in some ways, it's not that you're making it up, but you know you're on camera. It's not like it's hidden in cameras. You almost create a character, right? Yeah, it's a performative thing, and you want to be coming across in a good way and not like a douchey way or whatever.

You want to not be failing. Or you don't care. Yeah, because you'll have conversations all the time and we did too. Moe said, hey, what's with this? Or do you remember that time? And he'd be like, oh, no, never mind. Because I'm going to take my authentic question,

my authentic recollection, save it, and keep its authenticity I'm going to take my authentic question, my authentic recollection. Save it. Save it and keep its authenticity, but then wedge it in where I need it to live. Right. So it's like the impetus to say it is perfectly natural. It's something you're really honestly curious about. But I'm going to have to suspend the gratification of getting my answer in order to get my answer at a time that becomes usable for the production.

Yeah, useful. It's like bullshit, but not at all bullshit. It's just like a reshuffling. It's like a reshuffling of reality. I can say that there's nothing I said up here in the context of the show that I don't 100% believe in my heart or aren't my feelings about this whole greater subject. None of it was made up, and I didn't sit down on the plane ride up here and articulate the points that I thought would make me look cool or whatever. But there definitely was a lot like a lot of moments going along where i was like yeah i shouldn't ask that question right now you know

or i shouldn't say that right now like i know you know that we're going to end with a meal scene right like those are thoughts that you want to save for that meal scene because like you know i want a nice impactful ending that has emotional quality and like that people can that kind of buttons the idea up and yeah you know and i know that like when we're starting out i want to you know set up a couple basic principles that are gonna you know guide us through or set us on the right trajectory to kind of tell this story you know if i have something i'm very passionate about yeah an observation that i that i'm wed to i'll go against my own instincts and and stick it in multiple places yeah because i'm trying to like i'm hedging my bet i'm trying to make sure yeah so i'm like i'll say some point

and then it's almost painful to me but i'll do it like i'm gonna do my point again i know and i'm gonna do my point again later yeah and it's gonna be the only thing i do that many times and i'm sort of like by i'm sort of pushing this idea that this idea has to be there and you have a variety of ways to use it but i know but i mean as we go through these hunts you're there's a there's a lot of different ways that the hunt can play out when we were up there like you know you'll deliver some idea and and we still haven't completed a successful hunt and it could be that we don't end up with a successful hunt. And that moment that you deliver that idea is the most exciting moment in the show.

But it also could be that we then run into a lot of exciting stuff. A lot of things that happen after that, that you're like, okay, well, I know that stuff before is getting cut out. So if I want to get this idea across, I got to interject it it because from an editorial standpoint and from a standpoint of telling a show that's like coherent in the language of

television they can't cut to some some moment in some place that we've never even seen in the show that we didn't establish where you're saying something awesome but makes absolutely no sense because you're like, wait a second, how the hell did he get there and where did that jacket come from? It has to be that, I mean, there are rules to this. There are rules to how a show unfolds. If we could just make a quilt, like approach the show like a patchwork quilt and just plug a bunch of stuff in from a bunch of different places and whatever, we could make a, you know.

Choose your own adventure. A very articulate story that you could write down on paper word for word and read it and be like, wow, that is just a brilliantly told story. Yeah. But the visuals on screen would make absolutely no sense. It'd be like a bad acid trip. That was a really clear decision from the very, very beginning that we were not going to use interviews. And when you don't, when you use interviews, you by default, de facto, you do not have a cinematic show. It, it, it, no do not have a cinematic show. No, bullshit.

Touching the Void? What's that? Touching the Void seems really cinematic to me. That's a good point. Based on interviews, 100% recreations, no footage of the actual event. Amazing film. I need to think about that for a second. But I need to think about it because it is an amazing film. I agree in general.

By the way, I give you tons of props for that pull that fast. We were just talking about it. I went to film school too, man. You definitely stumped me on that one. I would agree with your principle. In general terms, you break the momentum of a cinematic story when you cut to an interview an interview again takes you out of it again you know people are brilliant animals and and they understand at some level that you're now

going into some contrived controlled environment with a controlled scenario, which is this guy delivering a line of dialogue that perfectly ties everything together. There needs to be... Where did that come from? Where did doing shows like that come from? What, the interview? Talking heads. Who invented that? No, like where you have people doing little interactions,

but then they're commenting on their own interactions. It's efficient. No, but who came? What did reality TV do first? News magazine shows before reality TV were very manipulative in how they had people answer questions. They would phrase questions in a way that basically – and cut the interviews in a way that made them say certain things. And I think it went from that into certain forms of reality TV where they really constructed these interviews. And then I think it was just natural progression.

I think that's a smart assessment. I'm going to come back to Touching the Void for a second. If you could have told that story in a purely verite sense, you would have. But there were no. What story? Touching the Void? Touching the Void. But there were no cameras.

So they had to go to a recreation basis. So I don't... Just out of sympathy for the viewers, listeners, Touching the Void is about a mountaineering accident, a mountaineering disaster that was not being filmed when it happened. What mountain range? Cordillera Blanca? Cordillera Blanca Range.

Yeah. Peru? Is that Peru? In Peru, yeah. So the two people, it involved a fellow who had to cut his climbing partner loose not knowing couldn't see his climbing partner didn't know if he's dead or alive he's hanging on a rope below him and and cuts the rope and the only way to tell the story is these two men are interviewed right exhaustively and there's some very artful recreations that never make you feel like you're

actually watching it happen. You're very aware that it's – So let me – And it wasn't like the old History Channel style recreation where everything gets kind of hazy. Right. Let me continue on here because I do – that was an important point and a good example. It is a documentary in the technical sense. You can't deny that it's a documentary, but it is not verite.

And verite for the audience, too, is like a fancy term for real shit happening. The French figured it out. Right. Chronicle of the Summer. And so what we're doing in these shows is really verite. Absolutely. And so that to me is where the difference is. When you're intercutting interviews into recreations that are obviously understood by the audience to be recreations, that's one thing.

And it's a beautiful documentary. It's a brilliantly told story. It's closer probably to fiction filmmaking. And the guy was a fiction. It is closer to fiction filmmaking. When you're cutting interviews into verite, what is supposed to be reality, that to me is when you're breaking it. The real gift, the real skill of ZPZ, of the company we work for, is that we, over time, have learned how to make cinematic verite, how to make choices in framing, in cinematography, in music. I would say maybe, not most importantly, but very up there,

very good writing. Excellent writing. What we do is we take a bunch of ideas that come from feature filmmaking, from cinematic produced feature film or narrative television making, and we apply them to verite format and and you know that is that to me is what has been successful with the second you cut to an interview a talking head interview out of that you break that momentum and i guess that's what i meant for for clarification on on what I was saying before, is you can't, in this kind of show, you can't do that. To me, you can't do that. Along those lines,

in terms of talking about Verite, a lot of that circles back to acceptance. And we were talking about the scenario where you were caught out and you couldn't get behind Mo. For you guys, Mo and Steve, it's something you guys talked about earlier, but that transition and that struggle of accepting a non-successful hunt you know which was the

reality of the scenario which doesn't necessarily equate to you know the the button that you want to put on a television show or a film what was that that transition like? Did you feel a lot of anxiety around a possible non-successful hunt? I mean, was it a mutual anxiety? How did you guys overcome that? Because, frankly, from watching the show progress, some of the most entertaining shows that I've watched are ones that you haven't. No, I thought that you couldn't do it.

I thought you had to just throw it all in the garbage. I think that was a big leap of faith early on to having... First of all, I think the first... I argued against it. What was your argument?

Just have to scrap it. Scrap it. We got an email one time, a guy saying, I've had a lot of failure in my life. I do not need to go and see you go out and fail. Wow. Yeah.

Which almost made me feel bad for the guy. I don't want to go to dinner with that guy. I actually do feel bad for that guy as well, man, because I think he's missing the greater point. But generally, it was well-received's missing the greater point but but generally it was well received but i argued it was vehemently that we it was the fourth it was the fourth one we did yeah i argued that it's like there's just no way it sucks yes we'll figure something out we'll go to my mom's and hunt squirrels in her yard like it was a great show there's like a way that we

don't have to use this because you can't have a hunting show where someone doesn't get something yeah but you know what happened in that show what was the the the reason the reason it was the goat hunt um in uh but are you saying you didn't have any anxiety or concern about this well of course i did yeah i'm a human being yeah you know it it but i don't remember you being i don't remember being worried about it no i i was i'm a human being yeah you know it it but i don't remember you being i don't remember being worried about it no i i was i was confident in it well no i was a little worried about it but i was i was confident that we had made a good show but what what happened and what what i the reason that i argued for it and then i thought it would be successful is that what what happened is all of a sudden, by not coming home with a goat on that show, the subject matter of the show changed.

It no longer was a show about a goat hunt. The goat hunt was the structure for the show, but what the show was about was you and your brother. And your writing and the way that you handled the the writing especially of the end of the last act and how that played out made it a show about spending time with with danny and how important that was and it was an aha moment because it was like all of a sudden it was like, wait a second, guys, there's a whole world here of stuff that we haven't explored. It's not just about hunting, you know, it's about life and philosophy and like, and the, you know, the relationships you have and the way that you

experience the world, like any of these subject matters, any of these things can be can be the the driving force of the story or the conclusion to a story we go out and hunt you know we're successful we're not successful whatever but there's a huge takeaway from the audience in hearing about why it's important to go out and like spend time with your brother and have that kind of connection and that kind of bond and to be able to make a smart and accurate judgment call in the moment and be like, it's a nanny. And a moral judgment, which some people may agree with or may not agree with, and I'm not casting judgment on where people would fall on it,

but to say, well, technically I'm legally allowed to shoot a nanny, but you really shouldn't, and I don't want to. And encouraged not to. And encouraged people. Encouraged not to by fishing game, but allowed to do it. Right, exactly. And I think that a lot of things on that episode for me it's a real benchmark episode because a lot of those things came together and like

it really was like a light bulb coming on it was like wait a second that guys there's a whole nother world here we don't need to feel the tremendous pressure that we've been feeling to go out and have these successful hunts. Like, we can now tell more nuanced and articulate stories about the human experience, and they don't have to be predicated on a kill shot at the end. You know, not to say there's anything wrong with that. I mean, it's great, you know. But we told a lot of great shows, you know,

a lot of great stories after that that were about a varying degree you know varying amount of subject matters that didn't have to do with necessarily killing an animal and to me that's what's given the show integrity and and legs over time we got a lot of stuff we can fall back on a lot of stories we can tell and a lot more we can tell in the future you know dirt myth authenticity is it has an entire including thought now i got two actually i thought of this can you also talk about where you're at with chewing tobacco right now i mean just like because you quit for you quit for a're in the car the other day. I quit, yeah. Baby steps.

Six hours. Baby steps. Yeah, I'm being supported by my friends and coworkers on quitting a horrible addiction. But my concluding thoughts. No, no, no. One more minute. Do you see yourself chewing in a year? No.

Do you see yourself chewing in one month? I'm going to quit tomorrow. No, no, don't bullshit. month. I'm going to quit tomorrow. No, don't bullshit. No, I'm going to say that's what I always think. No, but okay, you don't see yourself chewing in a year. No. Do you see yourself chewing in a month? Yeah.

Do you see yourself chewing in six months? Probably, yeah. Okay, just trying to get a sense of... Do you see yourself chewing in 11 months and 29 days. Probably a lot. And then I'm quitting. Oh, okay. So this is like a benchmark moment.

As of now. Write the date down. History's being made. But yeah, lay your concluding thoughts out. I don't know why I'm so worried. I just don't want to see you develop a hole in your lip. I know. I appreciate that, too.

It comes with love. But, yeah, the concluding thoughts, I think that the really cool thing I've been witness to, and this is my 15th, so I'm new, but I'm also. 15 episodes. Yeah. A meat eater. Yeah. You're an old hand, man.

80 total. So you're like. I don't know how many there are total. A lot. There's a lot. There's like know how many there are total. A lot. There's a lot. Yeah, we were talking about it. How many without kill shots? Well, home, it's over 80.

Okay, over 80. But something that I've seen and that was spoken about tonight that's really cool is the crew has to be authentic to basically make it. Yes. And with that being said, that makes all that we're talking about possible is it's all people who are willing to put that effort in to get the authenticity. Yeah.

It's got to be people who enjoy it. Yeah. That's the whole thing. When we're talking about issues like that, I'm always like, does he like running around in the woods? Yeah, exactly. who enjoy it. Yeah. That's the whole thing. When we're talking about issues like that, I'm always like, does he like running around out in the woods? Yeah, exactly. He can't.

Yeah. That'll be helpful. That's going to be a lot of it. You know what's great is how many non-hunters are sitting here right now. Yeah. Oh, for sure, man. That's because of the ethos of the show, man. So that has a lot to do with the development of the show and who Steve is.

And the one diehard hunter we had has got a gimpy knee now. Yeah. Second concluding thought was if you died, ABCs. Like if I actually died right now. Yeah. Airway, breathing, circulation. I check all that shit. Before doing the podcast and then continuing the podcast. And if it's still flatline, I hit the spot,

and yeah, we'd continue rolling. That's my concluding thoughts. I like that. That's good. Corey? No, it's great to work with Mo. He's like the founder of the show on the cinematic end of things. And, you know, listening to him tonight and like learning some, some true wisdom coming from a person who like kind of all got into working in this adventure,

filmmaking, adventure television. It's like anything you struggle. It's like life. You struggle, struggle, struggle to attain this main goal, which maybe is the main goal is to create our best television show we can, whether that's along the way carrying 100-pound packs up the steepest stuff you can imagine, like almost falling face first multiple times or like stressing about your shot placement or as a cameraman or like where you need to be.

And like, in the end it all works out. And like having, you know, building camaraderie within this one week with everyone with the same goal in mind. It's kind of fulfilling, for sure. Another great POW

show. POWs. Where stories are made. And rain. A little bit of rain. The other thing that I think people need to know... Why are you skipping your turn? Oh, man.

All right. Do it. It's the system. Do it. I like skipping turns. That was what I was going to say. Closing thoughts. Oh, not skipping your...

I didn't mean skipping your turn. You got what I meant. Jumping the gun. Jumping the gun. High-holing. I'm definitely that guy. For me, it's really nice to come out here and see like um that shows in like such good hands i mean you guys i think do like a tremendous job

man um i know how i'm one of the few people that knows how hard this job is um and it is very difficult you know to shoot this show, and I think you guys do a great job. And the other thing is just the satisfaction of being here six years later and still having a successful show up and running with no signs of weakening. I mean, that is a very rare thing in television, to be a part of something at the beginning and see it be successful and maintain its integrity throughout a lifespan. 80 shows is no joke by any stretch of the imagination. There's no reason to think that

it won't be 100, 100 plus. And those are real rarities in what we do. You know, most of the time you're working on a show that gets canceled after the first season. Most of the time you're working on some show that's a pitch that never sees the light of day. There's hundreds of them, you know. You know, I've had the benefit of working on a couple with legs that really run and run. And for me, this one, for a number of reasons, has been the most important and the most fulfilling over time. and has done more to shape who I am today in my belief system than any other. So it's been a tremendous gift, a tremendous gift. I can't really follow that. I don't know.

Whatever I'm going to say. Tell them about how when they're watching a wildlife when they're watching a wildlife sequence how what they don't realize is there's a hundred people standing there filming the same thing yeah there's a lot of

I'm not going to talk about that either but what I am going to say is this is a very physical job and I'm always I think of myself as somebody that's uh you know like in some ways exceptionally fit to be able to like yeah you're always tuning right along what are you gonna say you're not no no i i'm i'm fine but everybody else carrying like i'm just impressed with the crew that's on the show. It's a great crew.

Everybody, one, how much shit they're carrying. Did you know I had all my dive weights in my pack? Yeah. Exactly. And it's crazy. I forgot I'm in there. I forgot they were in there. Didn't even notice.

It's like a club of some sense that you're a part of. To film a show like this. Rogan called it a tribe. Yeah. And you're just, you're, yes, when people go hiking, everybody's tired hiking. But when you're hiking with extra film stuff and then you're running ahead and like doing just weird things that you would never do as a normal person. Yeah. And I like to think, okay, I am somebody that can do this weird thing.

But then you see like five other, six other people doing this and you're like, what the hell? There's other people that are also this. And it's a really strange set of folks that enjoy this type of activity. And I like that there's the folks that have worked on meat eater have gone on to do other, you know, bigger, better things, but they look at meat eater as a place where that is very, I don't know, very fulfilling. And I think everybody wants, when they work, to do something that's fulfilling. And it's cool to be a part of a group

that is fulfilled by working on a show because there's a lot of TV that is the opposite of this. But you work on something and you feel good about it and hopefully people enjoy it. Yeah, and later when they become traders, they still look back. They still look back. No, but it's – yeah. Eric?

Just piggybacking off of everyone's points, I think it is a, if when you meet someone that has worked on this show and inherently part of that process, you know, struggled through probably some intense weather conditions and some long, long days and long nights, you immediately feel bonded with that person. And I think you guys were talking about it earlier. It's it it kind of also redefines, you know, fun in the moment, it feels arduous, but those are frankly some of the best experiences I've ever had and some of the best stories that I tell are stories from media shoots, stories and experiences I had with you, Steve, or crew members here.

And these are guys, half these guys, I just met like three or four days ago and will now walk away calling them without a question my friends and so I think that that is a really really unique platform and

experience that Mediator gives you every time you come out whether you're working on it and hopefully that's something that people take away with their audience members that watch this. For my concluding thought, I want to talk about something someone said to me at the first TV meeting I ever went to.

And it's applicable to life in general, I think, where it was someone named Gloria Phan, who I still keep in touch with a producer. And I went out and met with her and some other people in Los Angeles in, I think 2004, 2005. And, uh, we sat down in a room and we're going to talk about trying to do something with hunting and other ideas.

And the first thing she says is, she says, it's impossible to get anything made. Nothing gets done. It's just one frustration after the other and it leads nowhere. With that, let's get started. All right. Thanks for tuning in documentary it's the documentary episode there wasn't a lot about hunting in this episode it was a lot of

yeah if you want to go to film school then then listen go to biology first all right that was fun yep thanks guys thank, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now, the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land,

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